Trevor Noah Makes My Brain Hurt | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

this is a very deep conversation that you said you don't like no no but people but but I but I put a you know when we promote the podcast we got a picture of Trevor Noah and we'll put a little clip and people like I'm going to listen to this one it's going to be so funny I mean we can still make jokes I love to think but more important I love to think about things that make my head hurt I like really difficult complicated things that there's no obvious right or wrong which means I

love people who make me think about those things and one of the best people who does this is Trevor Noah you may know Trevor from The Daily Show and is a stand-up comedian and best-selling author what I love him for is for his intense ability to think about things and see things that the rest of us don't see this episode is intense and it'll definitely make you think and it'll definitely make your head hurt in a good way this is a bit of optimism Trevor always a joy to see you and sit down with you

um I've never sat down with you ever ever ever and not learned something or had my perspective changed about something because of that insane mind that you have that I so love a lot of pressure on our conversations now I feel like one day we should hang out and not talk about anything new or interesting just so we have like a you know we don't want but we we don't like small talk you're I actually like small talk do yeah you know why because uh um maybe like a few years ago I read on how

important small talk is and how in society we have diminish the value of small talk but we don't realize that small talk is what connects us as people and big talk is what separates us so if you have the foundation of a lot of small talk you find similarities you exist in the same realities but then if you only have big talk then you it's like large ideas so when you go man the weather the other person goes like I can't believe how beautiful it is and you're like I know right or you go ah

the weather ah it's just it's been raining when is it going to stop I know right in that moment it's the craziest thing ever you have literally created reality that you share and now it's easier to say how do you plan to vote it's wild so so it greases the skids yeah it does so I actually like small talk now I mean like you and I haven't spent a lot of time together no I think socially outside of like seeing each other at conferences and things we've only ever actually hung out once and it was

spontaneous it was yeah we weren't we had no plans that was a crazy day I I was it I've I've texted with you I've never called you in my life yeah you've never called me in your life I'm not a big caller but no you're not a big caller and I don't know for I was driving home and for whatever reason I decided to call you yeah and out of the blue I called you and I'm like hey what are you doing and you said I'm sitting sitting here at this hotel in Los Angeles and

I had just driven past that hotel turned around and we had a cup of coffee that's the only time we've ever hung out and it was a great hang and yet I feel a I feel like you're a kindred spirit I I love spending time with you and it's not because of small talk it's because every time I see you we waste no time and go deep and if other people happen to be at the table they'll join in so this is going against the the small talk thing yes I can't speak how you but

I feel close to you because we always go deep and we find commonality in the deepness and we abandon the small talk but I think it's because we are of a tribe so I think that's where small talk is is is crucial for people small talk is not necessary for everybody but it's crucial when you don't know whether or not you're in the same tribe so from our get-go I was told by somebody a mutual friend he said you have to meet Simon you're going to love Simon you and Simon wow you two together so

and I trust our mutual friends so I was like oh yeah I mean let's see if he says that we will get along we'll get along so I like I'll meet this person and I assume that you know enough about me because we're friends that I will get along with this person and so now when we meet I don't now waste time if I met you in a different way I think I would have been a little slower to just jump in with you because I'd be like small talk is I look I understand the

purpose of it and maybe as the I'm sometimes socially awkward in groups and and introverted I I'm not good at small talk and I start with like my opening is a yes or no question which is which is been here before yeah um and then and then my mind goes blank Panic starts to happen I'm the same as you right but I I so I I genuinely love doing the things that I'm not good at and then trying to get comfortable in the spaces that I'm uncomfortable and so what I will actively try and do

in a like my first instinct when I walk into a room is to find a corner yeah that's my first instinct or find somebody I know or a corner either one of those is find Corner immediately agreed and then I and then I enjoy the room from there you'll find me by the buffet because I can I can just St disappear and just fill up a PL he going peruse the food I I'll fill up a plate oh okay okay I you just going to stand at just my point is it gives me something to

do that doesn't look like I'm awkwardly trying to not engage yeah it looks like I'm just trying to get food okay which I am yeah yeah and then I can sit down and eat yeah that's so that's my instinct but but I realized over I was like I myself a question I was like all right Trevor why are you uncomfortable I was like well I'm uncomfortable because I assume that people don't want to talk to me and I assume that I'm taking up unnecessary space and I assume that these people will reject me and I

assume and I assume and I so based on all those assumptions through a lot of therapy and I guess a little bit of introspection I started realizing I'm making assumptions about how the world sees me before the world has told me how it sees me yeah so I just take a moment to see if the opposite is true and then what I try to do as much as possible which is hard and you and I do talk about this is I don't make it about the outcome so I don't go if I go speak to

people they will like me or if I go speak to people I'll become friends with them I just walk in and I think to myself all right try your best just have a small talk conversation with this person and I'll walk in and I'll go wow those are really cool shoes and the person's like oh thank you thank you then I'm like why did you choose those shoes for this outfit and then they'll go oh well you know it's actually funny and you'll be shocked at people and they and you you get into the world

and you're like ah this is an interesting party you know I'm awkward and then they'll be like oh I have fun here I know it it's it's amazing how the world is not often times what you think it is it's just what you've told yourself it is cuz I I always wonder what it's like for somebody like you people consume so much of you whether it's your writing whether it's your videos whether it's like I wonder how many times people don't give you the opportunity to start or have a middling conversation because they just jump

straight into like a conversation with your work which is actually as an introvert it's actually been very helpful oh you like that it's been very helpful because I'm no longer required to start conversations and people are very nice when they when they come up to me um but what's interesting and you sort of just touched upon this which is they have assumptions about who I am what I like what I do how I may live my life because they judge me through my work and for example people think that I've read every book and that

I read every book right and they talk to me with that assumption they're like Anyway this book I'm sure you've read it you know they'll literally say that to me and the thing that I held a lot of Shame for for many years and I never was public about it until pretty recently is I'd read no books I have seriously bad ADHD I've started a lot of books I've finished one book excluding having to read my own because I had to but uh but I've only read one book cover to cover my entire life and

that was Da Vinci Code which is so good but I struggle to read and so people just assume because I'm I write things and I talk about things that I just cons viciously consume books yes and I hear people talk about like with Incredible judgment like people who don't read or you know no and I'm like you know yeah I'm curious what misperceptions people have about you because of the Persona that you they have of you I'll say this everyone's Assumption of me is based on the world that they know me from so I I've

realized I don't have a common assumption so South Africans I think have like the best idea of who I am as Trevor because their understanding of me was formed through like a sort of natural relationship I hosted TV shows in South Africa I I did standup comedy I you know was in interviews or what so people had an idea of who this person is did you have Fame in South Africa before you came here yeah like I always tell people I go like South Africa is my country in that way I'm I'm I'm lucky that

I have that as my country you know they have like a like a solid idea of me a lot of Americans knew me only as Daily Show guy so they had this fixed Assumption of me some some still do you know and I've learned this by meeting people is like it always come in the form of like a backhanded is compliment but which I still appreciate you know someone will come up to me with a firm handshake and they'll go you know I uh I didn't expect to enjoy anything you said because I don't agree

with a lot of your politics but I I got to say I I I really enjoyed your your peace it was it was good it was that was really good thank you and I'm like oh well thank you very much I'm glad you enjoy I'm even I'm even I'm even impressed that as a person you are able to see beyond what you thought you like I think that's a high compliment yeah yeah so so there's some people who see me as like a just like a hyper partisan political person who only exists in one world

you know the craziest ones that happened to me is I was in Miami and I was in a strip club for a friend's bachelor party and some guy in the strip club walks past me and he he looked at me in the eye and then he's like Donald Trump 224 that's literally what he screamed at me and then he looked at and I could see he was looking at me yeah like he thought it was going to shatter my world yeah and I looked at him and I was like and and he said do you

hear what I said Trump 2024 I was like okay he said yeah what do you think about that I said my friend we are in a strip club right now the last thing I'm thinking about is a presidential candidate and I said and you need to ask yourself what your priorities are if you're thinking about Donald Trump while you were in a strip club I was like what are you doing and but then I understood I was like all right you you've distilled me to this so I think people have they misperceive you as being

some people think I'm only political some people think I'm only partisan some people think I'm only comedian your personality but what about your personality like it it still depends like like I said like the fact that people think I some people think I'm only argumentative some people think I'm only affable but it all depends on where they've seen me because the other frequent one that I get is people think I'm very organized like if you come to my house I can see that though if you come to my house my house is much like my

brain which is it's filled with huh like and I mean like I love art and I like if there's a if there's an empty wall yeah I'm filling it like there's no empty walls like there's color there's stuff there's piles I'm not organized a friend of mine used to call me a surface abuser if if there was a horizontal surface anywhere near me I would fill it and not necessarily in an organized way like papers let piles of papers you know bowls of things I'm so like my dining room table I go through these phases

where get to the point where you can't see that I have a din room table and I'm like I hate this and I like clean everything that I mean that's common for but people think I'm people think I'm super super organized and I just think it's really funny like the impression that people have of me judge through the work yes and I wonder if you have the same experience which is I think that's part of the appeal that people have for my work which is when they discover that I'm not uh a ivy Le League

school educated read everything like a book a day you know hyper or that I'm actually more normal and average that I think that's one of the reasons I think people relate to it which is I'm I think I'm I'm not that thing that they think that I am and I wonder if that's the same for you I actually think it's the other way around for me funny enough so I think what'll happen sometimes is people have and this is not this is not unique to me people have a misconception about comedians I think a lot

of people do so a lot of people think that comedians are like non stop goofing clown people do you know what I mean they think we're just like walking around from room to room like God but in reality it's depression that's what they think it's a navigation of depression sorry the navigation of depression a lot of a lot of depression yeah so what it is funny enough is it's like so people will will meet me sometimes and they'll be like uh someone once said to me they were like uh you're a lot more fun on

TV and I said yes I'm I'm sitting in an airplane right now we're all quiet you think I'm just going to be turning to all the other passengers and be like well let me tell you about the time no we're on an airplane anybody here from Cleveland Cleveland any you know what I mean I think this is the sort of the funny thing about show business right which is they they associate your character with who you are yes and but but it's but the thing is it's one side of you're a comedian it's one side

of so they want you to be funny all the time yes it's one side of them and I try and explain this to people who even if they curious curious enough to ask the question they go hey you're a lot more quiet than I thought you're a lot more you seem a lot more introspective or you seem I go yeah because what I'm expressing is the culmination of what I've consumed but I need to consume so I spend most of my time quiet I spend most of my time observing I spend most of my time

listening actually my experience of you is and again the few times we've hung out is your exactly the same publicly and privately and it's one of my favorite things about you which is ter personality when I see you on TV or on a stage I'm like that's what he's like off the stage and off the camera I I hope so yeah I'll tell you why though for me there's a thing that I experienced a very long time ago when I was when I was first starting comedy and standup and all of these things where this

was in South Africa I bumped into some people who were Comedians and they were popular and they were really funny and they were like a nice guy image all of it and then I met them even in the comedy industry and I was like wow what a mean like what a like the way they treated people the but like this person was like well it's me you know the good guy and I was just like wow what a uh that sucked mhm and Beyond the moral Judgment of it and I remember thinking to myself it

must suck to have to constantly pretend to be someone and then have to act like the person you're pretending to be that's what I would often think to myself and so then what I thought was even for like my comedy I wanted to be able to get on stage and even tell the audience I'm having a terrible day but not have them go wao this is not we what we signed up for we came for that person not this person but my goal was and still is to give you the best version of Trevor when

I'm on stage what you see of me on stage is like that's how I at my best when I'm with my friends making everyone laugh that's how I am with like a group of people where we're thinking and going through crazy Concepts and idea that's the best of me so what I what I aim to do is put myself in a space where I can sort of aim for the best of me and then if I don't hit it I don't hit it but you get what I'm saying striving yeah so I don't I don't

exist as as one you have an uncanny self-awareness you notice the patterns and the absurdities in your own life and I'm I think when you talk about them out loud sometimes they're funny sometimes they're interesting but I think what they do is the ways in which you found to navigate life or understand yourself are also valuable to us and they're valuable to your friends right because you're seeing things that the rest of us are missing so like what are some of the lessons that you've learned that have helped you navigate the world that you think

have have had value in the lives of of of your friends or of others I think the biggest thing I've learned that has given me the most reward has been consideration I'm not always able to execute on it as in like I I I don't always make the best decisions I don't always make the right decisions sometimes I don't know at the time or sometimes I do but I I do know I always work from the place of consideration explain what that means or give an example um when I was growing up my mom drilled

into me through her actions as well not just through her words that we were always to consider others always always always always always always so like everywhere my mom went on like the route that she would drive to work to church to you name it every single homeless person knew her in like a wonderful way you know they give her a nickname they be like oh mzo which means like like it's like a a nickname version of like mama you know I like hey mzo how are you hey Momo I need shoes yeah Mom's wife

and they like know her they like know her and they know her in like a human way it's it's it was really interesting to me but she would just consider we we would be lucky enough to eat out at like a you know cuz we didn't always when I was growing up but sometimes we would and she would say to me stop eating she'd be like you fo she said let's save that this is a lot of food we can give this to the guy on the way home and we would do that and I'm

just a kid watching this do you know what I mean and she would go there's an old man uh who's our neighbor his grass his grass is getting too long we must we must go help him cut the grass and I was like this lady is insane we're going to cut somebody else's grass is he paying us no he's not paying us we're just doing this he didn't even ask us by the way he didn't even seem to appreciate that we were going to do it by the way and and I remember this one really

sticks with me prominently because she said to me I said why are we doing this like genuinely what we this is just torture and she said by considering others you you are also able to consider yourself and she said if this man doesn't cut his grass you know what's going to happen there's going to be rats in his in his yard and she said and you know where the rats go going to come to our house as well and so she said I'm cutting his grass for him but I'm also cutting his grass for us

MH and so we can live in a world where we say we don't cut grass for other people or we can live in a world where we say if I'm able to I'll cut their grass so that I also don't experience the rats MH and so she said so we're able so I'm going to cut that cross and I was like I still don't know about this but you know and and you know this I mean better than most people but the modeling that a parent showed like the things they show you for good or

bad you learn almost very loud and very big and but she knows that you know she knows that she's even embarrassing for me when you know when I'm like a kid in high school she's like oh your mother embarrasses you even that for me I think was a was a a beautiful thing to experience as a child because it showed me that she at least considered how she was affecting me now she didn't change it you know she was like oh you must be so ashamed oh you look at your mother I come in I'm

dirty and the car is horrible and oh you must be so ashamed oh I'm so sorry I'm so sorry oh she wouldn't change it but at least I knew yeah yeah she was aware yeah and so I I think that for me has been the biggest thing that's a nice one the alternative is so funny I'm just sort of playing the the the cutting the grass example which is you know we don't help the neighbor cut the grass the rats come and then we scream and yell and call the authorities so that he'll deal with

his rat problem yeah and the irony is is like a little bit of generosity a little bit of kindness to your mother's point of view a little bit of consideration and and this is a theme that comes up almost every time you and I talk which is community yeah uh and and that's all that is I think it's funny when people have less in lower income neighborhoods people sit on the front porch and raise each other's kids yeah and then as soon as you have wealth you move in you move in the backyard and you

sue your neighbor because their branches are hanging over your fence you know and it is amazing how when you have less Community is survival yeah it is right because both parents have to go to work and we can't afford child care but we can rely on the neighbors right and it's whereas when you have all the luxuries and you can afford all of the the help you you you don't even know the names of your neighbors because you don't need to yeah and if we look at the society we live in now where we feel

so closed off from everybody because this has become the American dream which is to go to the backyard and block everybody else off you know um that we become so that we now are desperate for that feeling of community and belonging and we're sort of struggling to find it and looking for anywhere to get it and you see it on the political left and on on on the political right whether it's anti-israel or antix like I'm going to latch on to anything I can that makes me feel good about belonging to some sort of community

and you get all the feels and and the and I feel like my life is purpose and I'm making good friends and I'm sacrificing and all these things but for the fact that it won't last like these aren't lifelong commitments to something okay so here's what I here's what I think it is I don't think that those things are unnatural I don't think that it's zero sum I don't think it's going to be one or the other people always have their politics people always gravitate towards certain issues people always form and find different alliances and

allegiances this is The Human Experience right I think the thing that's different now is we have fewer spaces where where we blend all of those worlds into something else does this make sense so I think one of the things we're losing as time moves is we're losing communal Community spaces yeah where a place to come together us being part of it Church yeah but even not church because I'm saying church is like also an extension of it in my opinion I think it what it is is it's a space where people are allowed to be

and are expected to be regardless of how they think or regardless of what they choose because the choice has sort of been made for them MH okay MH so I often think to myself one of the greatest gifts and curses a person can get is the ability to leave their Hometown mhm because you leave your hometown and now you choose to go live somewhere else when you've chosen to go live somewhere else you're now going to encounter other people who've also chosen go but they didn't choose to live next to you and you didn't choose

to live next to them and so now you go I hate my neighbor I wish they would move I hate my neighbor I need to move I hate this neighborhood I need to get out I hate this neighborhood I wish they would change it but you exist in a state of constantly wishing for the thing or the people around you to change because you believe it's possible Right but there's very few people who have that same expression about like where they're from from oh that's such a great Insight you understand home is home you just

go like hey man this is what it is so you go where you from I'm from a little town in the middle of wherever and I go like you go like oh yeah Jimbo yeah man Jimbo's like this and he's like that and actually oh Mary I don't like Mary because she's always saying these things to my mom don't wish you don't wish for them to move and you don't wish you don't even you don't you don't hear people say that I wish Mary would move move away oh this is this is such a great

Insight like move where which is the blessing and curse of of basically what an urban center is which is there's too much chice yes and the main thing is you have been told there is a choice of community and I think what it does is it fundamentally undermines our belief or our ability to understand that you can coexist with people you don't agree with right because now you cannot exist with them right right so I I say this to my friends all the time and and I think you know this about me away from mics

and cameras I encourage friends to bring up the things that they don't agree about because your friends you trust your friends you love your friends are a community that you know want the best for you so I think it's important to have discussions where you don't agree because then you can always fall back on the things that you do agree on right you can have what I call like healthy fights and so I'm still friends with my friends who are pro-israel some people don't like that about me they go like well how could you then

I go like yes but also how could I not then I'm also friends with my friends who are pro Palestine and then my pro-israel friends are like how could you then I go like I understand why you say that but I go how could I how could I not because I fundamentally believe genuinely whether it's at the level of leadership or whether it's the level of you and your life MH if you cannot find a way to exist despite the things you're disagreeing on and because there will be many of them and some are like

the most extreme and then some aren't so please don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's I'm not talking about Kumbaya I'm just saying there are many things where you sort of have to accept and so when I was growing up in South Africa and we were living at my grandmother's house in Soto black people couldn't leave Soto it wasn't like a thing this is the southwestern Township this is where you've been put by the apoide government you cannot leave it so what do you do you live you know your neighbor always plays music loud

on a Saturday morning when they're cleaning their stoop oh man you just know this maybe you complain once or twice but you like know this you know every Friday night there's going to be a bunch of guys who drive cars that have loud exhausts that going to do this every Friday they get paid they get drunk they do this ah and the weirdest thing happened you you knew that you didn't like it but you also accepted the the reality that you were in and I found it was like in a weird way more tolerable you

know what I mean people even tolerated each other and then found a connection with each other you could even tell to that person you're like ah here you come with your you know ah man on Friday I don't look forward to seeing you gu would be like ah Baba don't talk about my car like that why you you're just like yeah man you guys with your cars or you with your radio or you with your and I don't know how to explain it but there's something necessary in fact in my opinion in being able to

say to somebody these edges of yours they don't work with mine but I also have to learn that other people have edges so now it raises the question how do we create that Community I don't know that we can anymore I think the the thing that you had in common there's a shared enemy right which is apid South Africa no but I I take it away I don't even think thought that to be honest with you no I don't think it's conscious I don't think we think uh yeah but I'm saying even let's take the

word enemy away but there's the point is there's there's a what we shared is we didn't have a choice Simon this is so that's why take enemy away okay okay okay state it a different way yeah yes what you shared is you didn't have a choice we shared this non- choice and so and so when given no choice you have to make it work if a plane crashes and everyone survives and everyone's on this island you have to it work we cannot now say how did you vote in the midterms right hey man it doesn't

matter right now I need you to get those coconuts I need you to help us build the ra so what is it about our current society that don't we don't feel we have to make it work that because it's not like you can just sort of execute half the country and be like oh finally they're gone you know short of you know half the country moving to one part and the other half moving to another part like what is it about the current society that that we don't feel like we have to cooperate because again

we've that's what I mean it's the gift and the curse we got the choice but the but the it's impossible to go back it's impossible to go back from choice and it's one the great you can't ignore you can't ignore the apartheid government you can't no but remember there was there was a confining yeah exactly so a conf water a power yeah water is a the ocean is a confining factor we are the people of this land and and then someone builds a ship and it's like well now do you want to be the people

of this land cuz you can go somewhere else and then what happens someone goes like I'm going to go to this America place cuz I don't like how the English are treating so what's what's that wetter neighborhood like now that people can leave and travel do they are they tolerant as tolerant as they used to be now what's interesting is I would argue and I because I don't spend as much time there anymore you know since my grandmother passed I don't think that it's the same but I still think a lot of it is the

same because now the thing that forced people is class and income so still many people are forced so the confining force has changed that's why I said forget the force I understand but there's still a confining force it went from government policy to aom social economics yeah so now people cannot the people who cannot afford to move out of Soto still live in Soto and the people who have left have left and just from my little anecdotal experiment and my anecdotal experiences they're lonelier they are sadder they feel more isolated they feel less purpose they

they they they they're caught up in like a a drive that never ends but they've just got to and it's amazing to see they have more than every generation that came before them and wow Simon they are like um ah o h it's and it's amazing to see and I think this is the thing that's tough is like you you can't undo getting something right I grew up religious and what I loved about the Bible is whether you think it's real or not the stories are fantastic they truly are once you have eaten the Apple

in the Garden of Eden you cannot unsee that you are naked and that's like almost what God like tells Adam and Eve he's like you guys messed up man before this you didn't know you needed clothes right and now you will spend every day thinking I am naked and he's like that's why I didn't want you to eat the apple but you guys ate the apple and this is like this is the the the Paradox of choice the Temptation is to conclude that it's money the Temptation is to say but once you have wealth no

that but but I think that it's more like the the absence of struggle in the cases there's some sort of hardship that and in all of plane crash example Soto example so it's like as hardship is relieved and choice is a a relief of hardship then for some reason our ability to cooperate and put up with each other seems to go down so I I will agree with one part of it I still come back to I don't even think it's hardship I think it's just the constraining factor here here's why I say this let's

say there is an island of Mega rich people and they go hang out together and they're on this Mega Rich Island and they do whatever they want to do right it's the mega Rich they're having a great time if they are confined or constrained in some way they will find the same thing and they do find it temporarily so if you you've maybe been to them I've visited them on occasion but you get these places where people go to these like Golf Resorts and it's like wow what is this place and in that place I

have found people have a different level of community a different level of of enjoyment a different level of it's like people buzzing around on golf carts s and people meeting and there's only the four restaurants and all you can do is choose from one of the four and so you just rotate yeah we'll do the Spanish place on Monday and then we always we always love doing the Italian place on Wednesdays and I'll have the eggs again because all of a sudden you're constrained so there's this weird thing that happens I even think about it

for my life as I go the great curse is going to be the choice the great curse is going to be knowing that you can choose so how do you create artificial like constraint for yourself to help yourself because I don't think it's about hardship at all I think you can have a good time together it's constraint but if you cannot like change the people or the situation it changes your ability to appreciate or get along with the change or the situation so there's a story about um a shoe salesman in Los Angeles in the

1950s I can't remember his name but he was a he was a very successful entrepreneur who who own owned a whole bunch of women's shoe stores yeah and um a journalist asked him what's your secret and he said two not three and they're like what do you mean he goes if if woman comes into my store I'll bring her a pair of shoes she'll try them on and she'll say could I see that pair please and I'll bring her a second pair of shoes and she said could I also see that pair please and she

and he'll say which one would you like me to take away oh because what he found is when they had a choice of three they bought none and when they had a choice of two they bought one oh I love that right two not three and too much choice is over I need to apply that to my life you see that's brilliant I love it when people find the the Nexus of what of how you're supposed to do it cuz I understood it as a concept but that's a it's a nice way to think about

it for anything really yeah and so what I've started doing in my life is I've tried to I've added constraint right and I didn't even realize it until we're talking right now which is like I've got all these options on the table pick I mean it doesn't matter what it is I know what you mean and what I'll start doing is I'll start pairing them off I'll be like okay between these two okay get rid of that one okay between these two okay get rid of that one between these two and the choices become really

easy and then I get to the final two I'm like oh it's obvious it's that one whereas I'm looking at six or five or four or three and I'm like ah but this one gives me this and that one and I'm playing them off and doing sort of you know pros and cons I love that but it's the trick of the flipping the coin yeah you know I don't know should I do this or that you like flip a coin yeah and you accept Fate's decision well the question is do you want to flip again

it's whether you're satisfied with the coin flip or not and it works every time when people are stuck between a choice and you force them to flip a coin you say the coin decides and if they're happy with what the coin decides they go with it and if they're unhappy then obviously go with the other one yes because I think we are so terrified of making the wrong choice and rightly so by the way mhm if you're living your life well you don't want to make the wrong choice no that's why you know when you

book something you go sort by price cuz you like okay I'll make it a price Choice cuz the world has told me that price is the most important but if they added other ones I mean like Google flights does this they'll go oh here's duration then you're like oh well time is more important to me than the price and another one will be like sort by best value and you're like okay I'll go for Value what is the price relative to what it normally costs Etc but they at least give you something to give you

like a clear distinction and you look at the first few because that's whatever your hierarchy is this idea of constraint is really important so the question is is like how do we add constraint at a social level at a societal level in order to help people better find Community or at least get along and maybe that's not possible I think it happens naturally whether we like it or not because I think it's like the N it's the unnatural natural order of things but it seems not to happening be happening right now yeah because exactly your

last two words right now we love everything right now in life everything is right now people think this and I don't agree I I think it's it always goes to where are you zooming in and where you zooming out like genuinely where are you zooming in and when are you zooming out right because I think of like like everything whether it's markets or whether it's countries or whether it's the world or whether it's yeah it's it's terrible but it's the best it's ever been but it's it depends on and I will never minimize someone's experience

because it's the moment that you're in the moment that you're in is the most important moment for most of us and then the larger thing is how you aggregate all of the moments and what you think of or how you remember them so when I think of the right now I go let's let's use an example which is a crazy example I'm acknowledging this but let's look at the United Healthcare CEO who was assassinated I found it fascinating and I'll throw all the disclaimers out there so let's just say this is me using like what

I like to call like my my lab hands yeah I'm thinking of this more like a this is this this is a thought experiment not not a not a social commentary yeah forget forget all of it I just go like wow what a what a crazy moment where one person was killed and I would argue most of the country mhm was United in in their Joy Elation or at least or at least being quote unquote fine with it sh whatever kind of weird yeah yeah but I but I I think to myself wow what just

happened here yeah I'm willing to bet if you asked all those people let's let's say we did a cross-section or you know we we selected people from all walks of life who were happy or fine or celebrated or whatever it was we ask those people hey what are you uh what are you happy about here what or let's do it this way you said to them separately do you like it when people get killed they go no no no I'm I'm I'm willing to bet all of them would say no 100% against murder yeah and

you go like uh do you like it when people don't like how the world is going and so they shoot someone they'll be like no no no no no that's chaos that's Anarchy no no no no no no no no no and if you broke this incident down into many different things they would basically say no to all of it% so then I found s asking what was it about the collective action that brought so many different people together in a country where we're constantly told people are not together right we always told America's more

polarized than ever America's more polarized than ever but why weren't they polarized about this and what's your conclusion my conclusion is everybody is experiencing the same constraints whether you are a rich person or whether you are a poor person the healthcare industry in America has constrained you to living in a world where you don't know whether you're going to be able to pay for the next bill where you don't know if you'll go broke because of an incident you don't know if you'll have as or even just the even just the frustration of being forced

to jump through hoops after Hoops after Hoops it doesn't matter who you and imagine that even a rich person goes ah the healthcare industry and so in a way in this moment because of this action we got to see how that constraint Works you're like oh because everyone is constrained to this yeah they all then having the same experience they're coming together in ways that nobody thought people could and again as I say I'm not like happy understand no of course of course it's it's an observation but the the the the last time I saw

this happen and again it's an extreme example but it's just data right was after September 11th and after September 11th there was this big concern that the the the Muslim world you know hated americ so we there was research done they went to the moderate average Arab on the street EGP Jord do think SE 11 huge number majority said thinked was a it's and they added but I understand it and that's the part that I found very scary which is the minute that a rational person can rationalize an apparent Behavior there's something there's there's there's

some there's something under the surface there that has to be addressed but but I understand it and this is this is what's happening now with this assassination which is I think murder is horrible I think that his family loss is horrible horrible but I understand it yeah and it's that part that we need to explore is which is what is that happen and you're I mean and we all know what it is which is what what's happening in the insurance industry in the United States has become so unjust and so unbalanced that we are able

to rationalize and let go of our ethics and morals because of this the opportunity is to somehow understand how it got to this place and try and back away from it so because the last thing we want is for these unjust experiences to happen in the world and and and then you have vigilante justice is the only way to calm to calm because what it is is frustration it's an allev it's the shot in Freud it's an alleviation of frustration like I can't solve this problem I'm still stuck in this problem but but I feel

like I got some relief yes which is a horrible thought but it but is it though I'll think of it okay let's flip it the other way around horrible I think we keep saying that because we don't want to be but let's flip it the other way around let's flip it the other way around right this is again what this made me think about what are laws what are laws fundamentally if not how a society Wishes the constraints on yeah we agreed upon constraints on on our Behavior laws are fundamentally a fence that we build

around a yard that we choose to agree to yeah so we all go where's the fence yeah for everything where's the fence for the speed limits where's the fence for shooting a person or not shooting where's the fence for food and if I go outside that fence I know there's a consequence and and we fence right then what happens because of how power isn't equally shared because of how some people are able to manipulate all of a sudden somebody's jumping over the fence or doing and you're like hey and the person's like yeah well look

how big I am yeah I'm a corporation and you're like yeah but we agreed on the fence and they're like yeah well I I didn't break the fence I just climb over it and you're like I mean yeah but we we the whole point of the fence is that you're not supposed to get over it and they're like no no the law says I'm not allowed to break the fence but I can climb over the fence and then what happens to the people if they can't do anything within the fence they then go okay look

you get over the fence I can't get over the fence and then one person this kid allegedly goes actually you know what I'm just going to break the fence and so then people go actually in a weird way and this is this this is what's so complicated for people to understand especially people if they're in like power or whatever because of how close it is to them they Panic we're going to live in a world where this just chaos and and this do you know why do you know why so many people agreed with it

cuz it wasn't chaos I think that's what a lot of people are missing and I'm not saying I'm for it but I'm saying understand we miss it if we don't realize it wasn't chaos you and I are not we're trying to understand yes why people understand why why people understand and we're trying to understand why people are fine yes or at least able to rationalize it way yes because I go they are are in many ways going if this had happened to anyone else or to anything else we would then apply the rules and the

V but just like a legal system how we respond to the situation will change depending on how the person what people are missing it's it's is that he's he's not a he's not a father or a husband he's a symbol yes and an active participant more than just the symbol you're the CEO people feel yes a moral rebalancing completely yeah completely and this is why I say in the same way funny quote unquote that seems fair which do you know the concept of ethical fading no so ethical fading um is a concept where um we're

able to rationalize unethical behavior and there's a few things that contribute to ethical fading we see this inside corporations we see inside governments right so um one of the things that contributes to ethical fading is sort of peer pressure like well everyone's doing it I mean if I'm not going to do it they're going to do it and they're going to the advantage and I won't so right the other one is um that's what my boss wants it's what I need to it's what I need to do the other one is the sort of that

sort of selft talk that rationalizing like I got to put food on the table I have no choice right and then there's the slippy slope well he did it and nothing happened to him so why can't I do it and if and when cultures with weak leaders allow ethical fading to happen what you do is you get Wells Fargo with people opening up fake bank accounts to hit their numbers they all know it's wrong what you do is you get pharmaceutical companies who have patents on essential drugs raising the prices 500% 1,000% 1500% what you

get is insurance companies saying we pay for your anesthetic up to one hour of surgery anything more than one hour it's on you like knowing that most surgeries are not like they they and they pull numbers out of their ass and everybody knows it's wrong it's unethical but in weakly Le companies good people cuz we say things like how can they sleep at night they sleep fine right like good people are able to rationalize away unethical Behavior I think if you if we if we're if we're really honest with ourselves and we peel away sort

of the the the the onion from a lot of companies and I think it's particularly egregious in public companies ethical fading runs rampant in America today and I think what we're starting to see is a responding to that in the rise of populism and the rationalizing of apparent Behavior because we're seeing a rebalancing of you did something so unethical to us H one point on this side of the team one point to the powerless right right and the the question that we have to ask as a society is yes he'll go to jail and and

Justice will be done because he went outside the fence but we have to address the thing but I understand it if we don't what all the fears the executives have will all come true unless we actually address but I understand it who's going to do that I would also argue this though and maybe okay maybe I'll start by asking you this this is very deep conversation that you said you don't no no but people but but I but I put a you know we when we when we when we promote the podcast we got a

picture of Trevor Noah and we'll put a little clip and people like I'm going to listen to this one it's going to be so funny I mean we can still make jokes um the so so here's the question I have for you do you think that this shooter do you think that that was an ethical fading no I think the eth ethical fading happens on the side of the insurance companies okay so you don't think it's of the like the people who even like go like yes we're fine with this or yes we're pro oh

that's actually interesting it's it on both sides because we are rationalizing we are okay so the ethical fading is I mean so I'm asking I I don't no I'm thinking I don't I'm not 100% sure of the answer so because the definition is our ability to do unethical things make decisions outside of our ethical Frameworks rationalizing that they're okay right and so I guess yes so you see that's that's where I don't think so but ethical fading affects populations does it affect individuals so so this is this is what this is what I mean I

think there's definitely ethical fading at the insurance companies we know that that we agree with the question is is an ethical fing on his side so this is this is what I've been wrestling with no I know you know why know okay go cuz he knew what he was doing he knew what he was doing was illegal he knew what he was okay he had an awareness that what he's about to do is illegal which is why he took all the steps to hide himself whereas in the companies there is literally a a Mis like

no no no everything's fine everything's fine but they know I argue deep deep they know I don't even think deep I think shallow they know okay here's why here's what I I think it is let's stick on the healthcare industry because this is like really where most people I think have a have a loathing you know where people what's brought people together let's take a step back from this story that was in the news let's look at like the opioid crisis m where millions of Americans died died lost family we always forget like the secondary

effects right we always think of the earthquake we forget about the Aftershock think of everybody who lost a family member we know what that does to a family a bread winner disappears what does that do to the kids what happens when a community has Bread Winners that disappear right and then we look at the people who benefited the most from it and what happen happened to them arguably nothing oh they got they lost a little bit of money not all their money by the way not all their money mhm a little bit of their money

I always found it particularly interesting that El Chapo would be arrested and the US government would take all of the money that they could all of it and go like yeah it's ill gotten money they wouldn't go like well El Chapo some of this you earned from interest and some of this you earned from other Ventures that aren't actually drugs and some of they just go like no no we're taking all your money but then for the Sackler family they don't take all their money they go like all pay a fine do you know what

I mean pay a fine MH why not all their money as well look look at what they did and look at how many people affect not even jail and so what starts to happen then I think and this is what I think we have to Grapple with as a society is beyond like the this is what I always try and talk to people in power about is I go it is easy when you are close to power to assume that the actions of the powerless are devoid of morality because you have the levers of power

and so power responds to you accordingly right but when people live in a country where their Healthcare gets denied they pay insurance believing they will be insured and then only when they're on their deathbed do they get tricked out of it people are like what has happened here and then the recourse is almost nothing there nothing you can do the the difficult thing for us to grow is when do we say that a person has done something wrong I always think about this with history it like blows my mind the British did not think that

the Americans were Heroes they did not think that MH right MH when Paul rier and all these people are riding around on horses the British aren't like ah these Heroes man these Heroes mhm do you know what I'm saying start terrorist the Spanish did not go like ah Chay gavara what a hero fighting for his people ah Chay gavara doing his thing you know what I mean history is lited with examples of people who did the wrong thing by the confines of what that current time agreed on and then afterwards the people were like this

was for the greater good and so this is what this is why I say I'm wrestling with it I'm wrestling because it is a complicated thing because I on the one side of my brain as Trevor goes hey man I don't want to live in a world where someone goes around shooting somebody because they feel like the thing doesn't work the way they would like it to and it's affected them I don't want that you know what I mean and I would argue that's what a lot of let's say even gang violence is you didn't

do me you did me wrong I'm going to shoot you or you know the mob did viilante Justice is not a thing we agreed to that's there's one side of my brain that says that is Trevor completely then the other side of my brain goes yes but we don't seem to have mechanisms that work effectively for when large bodies do these things so what do we do some be like oh with the legals but we've seen it doesn't work so it's like so now what do we what do people do and I think that's that's

why I'm so interested in answering the question because I think CEOs of let's even just stick in the healthcare industry because that's where the thing is aimed by the way it's not like I love how they're going to try and make it seem like it's CEOs it's like no no no no no no let's let's be honest here you the CEO of Ben and Jer is fine they don't have to get any extra security none whatsoever don't try rope CEOs in let's let's make it industry specific do you know what I'm saying this is like

a this is like a dictator being like us world leaders we have such a tough time getting the people and it's like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa yeah yeah there world leaders you know what Stalin said right which is the death of one man is a tragedy and the death of a million is a statistic right and that's what we're dealing with here you're dealing with the emotions of a person with a name and a face and the emotion of that ver the statistic of how many people have have suffered as a result and you

and it's very hard to compare thousands to to somebody with a name in a face one is emotional and the other one is rational yeah and I that's why I think it's important for us whenever those types of things happen I think it's important for us if we if we want to think of ourselves as thinkers we have to then go hm what is this actually telling us about Society like if I was a lawmaker in Washington I'm thinking less about the fact that a person was killed and I'm thinking more about why my population

for the most part thinks that it was everything from understandable to great yeah that's what I would be thinking of i' go like cuz the people exactly I think at the base level I understand it do you see what I'm saying yeah and I think and unfortunately we we all understand it that's the thing and now if I'm a CEO of a health insurance company or whatever yes as much as I think about getting security the thing I would think is like whoa how do we change with the way we do business whoa whoa whoa

whoa wait a minute wait a minute do I want this company to be a thing that the majority of a country wishes death upon who you have just and you have just defined politics in America which is regardless of who you somebody voted for if you just look at the way people voted and if you don't understand why they voted for it then you don't understand what has to be fixed in America yeah the person who voted for Trump can say I can tell you why I voted M and the person who didn't vote for

Trump has to be able to say but I understand it yes or or even I would even say this though I sometimes pose it this way to people who who don't agree with that they'll go no I don't understand how you could because they go because the the Democrats have a a more robust policy for doing that and they're going to bring the poor up so I go okay let's do it another way then let's actually do it another way I don't force you to understand let's let's do it another way would you agree that

this person's concern is real so now let's not say that they did or didn't do the thing let's not let's not say that you like cuz you'll go like no but it's not true mhm do you agree that there are fewer jobs and people have fewer opportunities and the disparities can't catch up with inflation and towns are you know falling into disrepair and they be coming do you agree with that yes but I Trump's not going to fix it ah okay great but at least now you may not but you do see that these things

are real and I think this is what we struggle with sometimes in life is we don't realize that issues are real politics are an imagined way to solve the issues right but the issue is there right an issu is like a pothole it exists the politics is arguing about who pays for the pothole or how we get to fix the pothole but the pothole is very real and so I think sometimes what we do is we don't spend enough time just acknowledging the pothole and we spend more time arguing about why the other person thinks

the pothole should filled with sand instead of concrete but if we just spent a little more time on that and I've said this to any Democrat I meet who's in power or whatever I go why don't you just make your thing like irresistible you know it's the same way i' would say like to Americans as a concept of democracy I'm like just make it irresistible that everybody wants it you won't have to force you know what's irresistible movies have you noticed that you don't have to go to any country and bomit to force them to

watch The Avengers have you noticed that you know how you know this Simon people bootleg movies exactly they Ste America has never had to fly to a communist country to a socialist they've never had to fly to any of them drop DVDs on them and be like you watch these movies those people have bootlegged them and translated them into their language without you forcing them why cuz that thing was amazing yeah the film industry made something that was irresistible and if you make something that is good people will want it right and because Ben and

Jerry's is good people will want it people will want it and so I go think of it like that good so I say as a Democrat if you are a Democrat I go like okay just find the states where you control you you're the governor you are the senator you are the Mayors you are just make it y yo yo yo yo so then make your state so irresistible that people are like I want my state like that one I'm either going there or I like my state like that one as opposed to saying uh

we could we could because I don't think that the one has to wait for the other mhm and I think that's something that we take for granted is if the thing is good people yo people are always going to come for a thing that is good you don't have to force them to believe in it and that is a perfect place to end this this was good and hopefully we won't have to force anybody to come to it um the problem with talking to you is I never want it to end I I I I

have endless energy my mind my brain hurts a little bit and I really love it it's like you know you go to the gym and you get muscle pain you're like a you're good you know that's how my brain feels right now I I and I absolutely love it the feeling is mutual every time I said down with you I said it at the beginning I'll say it at the end I absolutely absolutely love talking to you you are one of the you have an insight into how the world works and how people work clearer

than most people in the world uh such a joy such a joy such a joy it really is it's mutual that's why I love sitting with you and uh no Small Talk maybe yeah I mean a little bit but uh maybe maybe that's what makes our conversation so great is that at some point they have to end and so that constraint constraint is what keeps them being amazing it's it's exactly if we did it all the time it wouldn't be as fun thank you my friend thank you if you enjoyed this podcast and would like

to hear more please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts and if you'd like even more optimism check out my website simon.com for classes videos and more until then take care of yourself take care of each other