The Speaking Coach: The One Word All Liars Use! Stop Saying This Word, It's Making You Sound Weak!

when somebody is belittling you or being rude or being disrespectful what we typically want to do is throw it right back because now we got to win instead of that here's what I would want you to do one you're going to have 5 to 7 Seconds of Silence two you're going to ask them to say it again because a lot of time in arguments people take it back and three this is where it gets fun I want you to say that's where your real power is because it shows that you're the one in control and

they're the ones that are not I'm Jefferson fiser I'm a board certified trial attorney and I help people resolve conflict resolve problems and I can change two words and change your life just by what you decide to say next because what you say truly has the power to change everything for example I teach that you never want to win an argument when you look to win an argument you will often lose the relationship that's your prize congrats so instead of seeing arguments as something to win see them as something to unravel and if you can

just ask them the question what am I missing I promise you that is the most effective tool that you can use for difficult conversation but what about when you're dealing with someone that you don't like the secret to dealing with someone you don't like is to and then could you explain to me this image here so this is all about how to say no and how does one learn that start with then end with really that right there is very very effective they've got so many questions this has always blown my mind a little bit

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find the guest that you want me to speak to and we'll continue to do what we do thank you so much [Music] Jefferson Fisher I'm incredibly intrigued by so many of the things that you produce content about but also this phenomenal book so if we if we start from the beginning who who are you and what is the mission that you're on I'm Jefferson Fischer I'm a board certified trial attorney and I teach people how to argue less and say more um and I'm on a mission to help change everything about someone simply by what

they decide to say next what is a trial attorney is that a lawyer yeah it's a lawyer attorney same thing and what do you do as a trial attorney so I help people resolve conflict resolve problems so if you have a a problem with someone you have a choice do you go and just punch them in the mouth or do you sue them a lot of times it's something that somebody is hurt you that they cannot give back to you so the only way they do that in the law is to compensate them with money

and so you you can Su just about anybody so that's how we resolve conflict here in a lot in America same for the UK and litigation so what we do is we Advocate on behalf of other people so you're in the courtroom and you're against another trial attorney essentially trying to make the case for your party exactly yes sir but isn't that doesn't that come down to your ability to articulate yourself and to persuade and to convince someone of your isn't wholeheartedly yeah right yeah what I say the words that I give um are give

mean the difference between somebody getting their piece of Mind back or losing everything and how does one learn like how did you learn that where did your skill come from in that regard because you're regarded as one of the very best of what you do so where did you learn so I am a fifth generation trial attorney so I grew up and while other kids were were maybe playing when they got home I got picked up and taken to my dad's deposition because um my dad was the only one who could get me at that

time and so I sat in the corner with a yellow notepad doodling while he is finishing the rest of his deposition or I'd go to watch his uh trial I saw lots of closing arguments and so I got to see firsthand courtroom stories I mean any of these people who've been in trial education they're all wonderful storytellers so you get to hear that and hear how they ask questions before they say they give an answer and so you get to really add a first row view of how litigation happens and how to persuade and what

are the levers in conversation that that push that forward progress you've written the book on conversation argue Less Talk More why does it matter to the average person listening now that's just clicked on this conversation why does it matter to them yeah where some people would teach you how to play an instrument I tell you what chords to play I give you the sheet music and so once you know where you are even in your voice what matters are the actual words that you say and I can change two sentences two words and change your

life just by what you decide to say next because where you've been in your whole life comes down to your communication I and how you handle conflict where you left one relationship because of most likely some type of communication LED you to another or where you are in your job or where you are in a podcast it it's all comes down to what you've communicated and where you are in the conversation at all times do you really think it's that pivotal to your outcomes in life oh absolutely so if I if I became a 10

out of 10 Communicator like I became the best Communicator in the world what outcomes in my life what areas of my life do you think will radically improve I think you could almost get to to wherever you wanted to go if you were a 10 out of 10 Communicator you can how you get hired for jobs let's say in your career comes down almost exclusively to how you communicated right there in that interview you know people have a wonderful resume but they have no ability to communicate that and without the ability to say anything and

say it at least effectively then they're not going to get what they want or you have people who have been in those relationships where they've continually been stepped on they wonderful people inside and if they were only with the right person or if they could express how they wanted and what they needed at that time their whole world would really change I think a lot about this because of podcasting and it's one of the um slightly unfortunate unfair elements of running a podcast is sometimes you come across people who have done the most extraordinary work

ever they could be a scientist and a lab in Boston in America or they could be I don't know some exceptional expert in some Niche field but the reason why they often don't get the platform the stage on podcasts or on TED Talks whatever it might be isn't because of their sort of Merit it's purely because of their ability to communicate the ideas and I think the more and more we head into this sort of like content YouTube podcasting world where that's like the dominant form of media it's so unb it's such an unfair Advantage

yeah if you can communicate like you can be 50% as good in terms of skills or experience but if you can communicate effectively the unfair Advantage you will have in your life I think is just completely disproportionate I couldn't agree more you have a huge Head Start in the space you can if you're somebody who you may know more than anybody else in that class but if you don't have the ability to take up the room if you don't have the ability to capture somebody's attention and hold it and communicate what you need nobody will

listen and it is an unfair Advantage it's a great way to put it and what's the downside then so if I'm a terrible communicator if I'm a one out of 10 Communicator currently a what does that look like but B what does what do the outcomes look like in my life the outcomes are you're going to start to be negative on yourself you're going to start to talk to yourself in very negative ways and and really it's a hopeless feeling you're going to run into relationships where you're running into the same problem you're going to

go into jobs where you start to run into the same problem where it's almost cyclical where you're not being able to say what you need to say that makes a huge difference when you say look I'm not going to I'm not going to allow myself to be treated this way anymore when you don't even know how to voice your own boundaries or enforce those boundaries or things of how you want and where you want to go in your life what you're going to find is you're just going to be unhappier more often and more unsatisfied

and that's a a really hopeless feeling how many followers have you gotten online now across all your channels I think we're close to 12 million it's crazy yeah you're telling me is there is there an attorney that has that many followers on Earth no what is it you're doing for those 12 million people at the very core of it yeah they come to me and they watch my videos not to fix or learn from what happened in the last conversation they're coming to me because they want to know how to handle the next conversation and

what I do is I give them these Snippets the same way I would in an opening argument or a closing argument I go with three main points I try to condense a whole lot of information into something that has very little so you take what would be 40 pages and you turn it into two sentences and you turn that into one sentence you turn into seven words and what I do is I give them the sense of hey I can do that I can do that all I have to do is switch this word or

I can see the impact of just flipping one little word or reversing the way I'm giving that sentence and it creates a very different outcome every time so let's get into that then you said you help them focus on the next conversation yeah what you mean by that so often we think of first impression versus the next conversation so you and I meet the first time or you meet uh your date or somebody you uh first job interview and everything's great everybody's has their best face on everything's wonderful but it's typically that next conversation where

something's different you get to learn if the first impression is the Lasting Impression if somebody was really who you thought that they were you put it in terms of an everyday argument let's say with a spouse or a friend you have friction that friction ignites and then you start to both yell at each other and then you throw insults at each other and everything gets louder and louder and louder eventually somebody crosses the line and says something they don't mean and it dies go forget this I'm out of here gone they leave then there's a

next conversation and that one sounds a lot different than the first one sounds a lot quieter a lot slower people say I what I meant to say was or yeah I shouldn't have said that what my intent was then they start to clarify then they start to apologize then they reframe oh I can see how you take it that way no no no what I meant was what they care about in the next conversation is always much different than what they focused on in the first conversation so the key is how do you take that

next conversation and get it there to be the first one and where do where do we have to start to understand this like I want to be a much better conversationalist and I want to be a much more effective communicator I want to argue less I want to talk more I want to be heard more this is probably reflective of most people listening right now so if if if I was a student of yours coming in to be trained by you where is the first place you would start with me number one yeah you say

it with control okay what you mean by that yeah so when you're in an argument with somebody what happens automatically is your fighter flight starts to take over even in a little argument even in the very especially even in the small ones if I disagree with your opinion your figh Orly kicks in because your body is saying hey I'm being undermined Your Mind Is Telling You N I didn't like that what he's saying is different from what I'm saying you know what we're going to think of some other things it's going to put that down

immediately what I want to do is say something that is going to fight in other words I'm going to hurt you I want to say something that's going to cut you I want to say something that is hurtful or we run from it you ever had somebody been on the phone and go you know I'm over this in the hang up yeah or they go I'm out of here you know what forget this and they go and slam the door that's their flight that's their they're leaving it's I feel threatened in this current moment by

this conflict by this differing view so I need to get out of it when you decide to say it with control you make sure that that doesn't happen and it all begins with your breath all right that's the key so what I teach every one of my clients is let your breath be the first word that you say so we'll run through it right now that's cool all right so let's do it uh an exaggerated one and what this is called and it takes advantage of is a physiological sigh so we're going to do is

um two seconds in through the nose one more at the top and then go yeah okay how do you feel after you do that very relaxed yeah all right cool so what we're going to do is get a shortcut to that exact result this time we're going to do it same thing but don't make the the noise one more stop through the mouth again now instead of the mouth only through the nose ready now that was a now we did that almost a little that was very intentional so let's do it again but give it

a haircut as if like you don't even I'm you're not even going to get me to notice ready that right there now that is your go-to when ever somebody is telling you something that you disagree with that is your go-to before you even say your first word because it is going to make sure that that fight ORF flight never kicks in it keeps that analytical side that logical side in it the whole time instead of going oh but wait they can't yell at me like that no no that's that's a dumb idea can you believe

that you say instead of that that's your fight or flight you never even gave yourself a chance to breathe when you breathe and use that what I call a conversational breath now you it allows you to go huh I wonder where this is coming from I wonder why they said it like that now it allows you to kind of stay detached from that current moment because you're injecting your breath into it when you allow yourself to breathe then it's going to keep you much calmer and so anytime I have a client that maybe is getting

a question from an attorney that would be triggering to them or upsetting to them it's always the training of use your breath while they're asking the question and start getting really curious as to why they're asking that what's the point that they're trying to prove don't look at the surface of the question look at the intent behind it where are they trying to take you whenever I can teach them that it's it's a very powerful result and to do that I have to kind of be comfortable with the fact that there will be a pause

between my response and their question yeah which is quite uncomfortable for a lot of people uh you think but the more they do it the better it becomes in fact I like it because it tells you that I actually listened so let's say for example ask me ask me about my just say how was your day Jefferson how was your day Jefferson it was good it was good my day was great um you know it was it was a day ask me again how was your day Jefferson it was good it was a good day

I liked it you see how it one says I didn't even think about what you asked me the other says no I actually thought about the question I considered it and then I chose my answer and so that you can do that even when especially for leaders they go into a very busy work environment where there are problems right on the floor they have to address this right at that current moment the bad leaders will get very hectic and rise to that same level of energy the great leaders will capture the calm energy they inject

that breath and go okay what's next have you ever uh my grandfather for example I can ask him um one time I was like hey do you know where your your um your screwdriver is and he he goes yeah I mean like you know what I mean like but that I mean it just but there's something about it where these kind of people in your life that you're looking and drawn to the calm energy the anchors in your relationship and your conversations the people that just to be near them calms you down just to be

around them you go okay great Stephen's here I feel better good okay he's here all right things are going to go all right because they're looking for the person who is going to be the lead not just in the conversation but the frequency of the room it's a calm energy that you have to capture when you took that pause when I asked you how your day had been two interesting observations I had the first is whatever you were about to say next I trusted more because You' had some time to think and you weren't just

spewing out your like automatic response so I thought oh gosh what's he gonna say here and there was this element of like he's really thinking he's like he really cares about giving me the H the honest answer and the second one is I was just so much more intrigued right because I could see you thinking so I thought this is going to be an interesting response yeah and that was all in that one second where you took a breath you can see that a lot in interviews the person who you go oh this person is

smart is when you ask him a regular interview question and if they if they give a breath before they answer you go oh they actually are are listening to me the ones that have this rapid fire of let's say for example and this uses another technique that we'll talk talk about is if you were to say would you bring some value do you think You' bring value to this company and if I automatically said oh yeah yeah I mean I think I think I would I think I'd bring a lot of value to this company

versus I'm confident I'd bring a lot of value to this company like you hear how all of a sudden you go that's that's my person they actually heard me considered it and I'm really curious about what they're going to say next there was something is there's something in the contemplation which means that I believe you checked yeah like it's it's simple way to describe it in that second example where you paused and said yeah I've r a lot of value to this company I was like he actually checked exactly he like checked he believes it

so I believe it right and that's way every time I teach a client and I'm preparing them uh for their deposition what they call a Depo when you say client who do you mean you mean yeah so uh people that hire me in my Law Firm right uh and now that's translated to me doing it on my phone and teaching teaching people in my own membership is I would say okay let your breath be the first word and once you do that you're are going to be the other person's going to go oh man they

really listened to my question see attorneys we want to get you we want to get you in a rapid fire we want you to answer very quickly even better is when you start to step over my question answer the question that you think I'm already going to ask when you do that that means you're not listening you're not listening but when I can get a client to stop breathe and go yeah you know what that's not that's not not fair I had a client Elizabeth who one time when I was prepping her I would kind

of I would act as the other attorney so I do that often to help get them and simulate what's going to happen I would say all right Miss Carson come on I need you to answer this question that's true it's fair to say you didn't see that other car did you and I kind of start to push him that gets them really nervous you know oh my gosh and their nerves get up it's because they're not breathing when people start to shake it's not breathing and so she didn't know what to say and I'm prepping

her come time after I taught her about her breath same question somebody said and I knew this attorney I knew he was going to ask that question he said it's fair to say you didn't see that other the car she took a breath she goes no that's that's not fair to say I mean I just left it at that I mean and he just couldn't really do anything with it but the bigger thing was it gave her the confidence I was saying no I listened I see where you're going with this I'm not going to

go there and so it it helps you navigate and Empower you really with the tools of making sure you're always saying it with control another part of saying with control is slowing your words down when people talk really fast without thinking about it it gets us kind of anxious when somebody is talking really really fast you're okay I'm trying to understand you it's harder uh let's say I mean I like hip hop I like rap music if you listen to somebody who's rapping really really fast and you can't understand a word they're saying you kind

kind of like okay I'm lost in this song I like the beat that's great but I can't understand what you're saying people that slow their words down shows a lot more Effectiveness when you communicate so let's illustrate this I want you to say quickly with some almost some exasperation um I already told you I'm not going to do that say that real quick I already told you I'm not gonna do that say it louder I already told you I'm not gonna do that perfect I want you to do is slow it down slow it way

down each word you don't have to have the disdain with it just slow it down say it again I already told you I'm not going to do that say you're even slower I already told you I am not going to do that oh man that's awesome yeah so you see how without the emotion yeah you sounded even more control yeah somebody who goes I already told you I'm not going to do that says I have maybe 5% control but if I slow it down same thing and I say I already told you I'm not going

to do that now I sound like I have 100% control this is the person you go whoa okay they're not moving off their spot they're not somebody who's I can't press their buttons and control their emotions that way what type of person struggles with this somebody who um would be not aware of their emotions not aware of their triggers somebody who just let's put it has a lack of awareness of certain things does one self-esteem and one's insecurities play a role in this yeah I mean they play role with anything my counter to that is

we can overcome it it's it's not your self-esteem that's talking it's the words the words do it for you have people who have a hard time saying what they want it's the words that they need to say so when somebody's having a hard time with self-esteem what I find is all I need to do is get them to start beginning their sentences with certain words and it's always a different outcome they just don't know how to begin it so it's very curious on how like somebody who rarely does people with self-esteem issue say I need

for example they typically don't like to say that because it feels to forward somebody who has self-esteem issues will typically begin with so you know maybe like uh and I was thinking this and you can you can totally tell me if I'm wrong but uh that's the kind of thing that you typically hear they're just using the wrong words to begin their sentences you have to find words that push the progress of the sentence for example if someone says like all the time I mean I when you said that like it it just really upset

meh that doesn't push the sentence forward if you trade out the word like for the word because well I mean that just hurt because when you said that that that hurt me I'm pushing the sentence forward rather than letting it drag and so it's just these little bitty tweaks that one or two words make a big big difference so that was the first point you said control yeah control say it with control okay is that a second Point number two say it with confidence confidence okay how do I say something with confidence you have to

first understand what it is and I don't mean that in like a a woow woo like setting a lot of people come to me and go how do I have the confidence to say this I'm getting up the courage or confidence to say that it's the wrong way to look at it confidence is not what you have before confidence is the outcome and you get to that by saying things that are assertive what I teach is confidence is as assertive does so when you learn how to use your assertive voice the result is feeling confident

like if I were to tell you right now Stephen I need you to feel sad you have a hard time feeling sad if I said I need you to be afraid right now like I don't I mean what what is there to be afraid of like you just can't conjure that feeling now if I for whatever reason just gave you a elbow to the chest I mean you'd be like upset right you don't have to you don't have to wonder what it's like to feel mad you're going to feel it it's the same with confidence

you can't just conjure up the feeling of of confidence you only get it by doing assertive things and the people that are most confident I found are the people that have done the thing already so they have already said the assertive thing they've already used their voice because the more assertive they are the more confident they're going to feel that's the way it works so you do it you find confidence by using your assertive voice and what is my assertive voice and how is sort of an assertive voice different to like disrespecting someone um I've

got this graph I think it's from taken from your book okay which shows the sort of Middle Ground of yeah I'll put it on the screen for anyone that can't see but respecting others sort of versus respecting yourself and in the middle of there you have your assertive voice right what is my assertive voice it's a balance it's a balance between sounding almost passive and sounding aggressive assertive says I'm willing to be direct with you even in the face of it not going well but I'm at least going to give you my truth or I'm

going to say what I need to say without sounding rude whenever you work direct with someone it's also very kind to someone if I were to tell you and prep the sentence with Stephen I'm going to tell you this because I know you can handle it that's different than me going hey look this is you know probably gonna upset you and I don't mean to upset you but you just let me know like that is a lot whole lot harder the assertive voice ISS I'm going to be very direct at the same time I'm going

to say it with a sense of this is doesn't have to do with me trying to push my way I'm just letting you know where I stand you don't you don't have to always play nice that's not what I'm saying there are times when somebody says something that's that's terrible to you you don't have to push back you just can't be pushed over and so when you learn your assertive voice that's where you find ways to speak your truth more easily and more readily so one of the first words are the lessons of say it

uh and using your assertive voice is that every word matters the number one culprit of that is the word just we use the word just a lot it's probably one of my my weaknesses that I have is using the word just in common conversation no problem it's nobody cares but when it comes to having to push a boundary say something at work be a little bit more on your toes just has a way of making you sound hesitant the most common way we hear that is if somebody goes may an email or a text hey

just wanted to check in with you hey do you have five seconds just wanted to to touch base with you it sounds like you're hesitant as if like I don't really want to bother you if you remove the word just now you're leaning into it so instead of I just want to check in I wanted to check in with you that's a lot more forward a lot more forward progress rather than just using the word just but every little word matters you've had those texts where somebody gives you like a whole paragraph I don't I

don't know what how to respond to this what I teach is that the longer your answer the more questions you're going to get the longer that conversation's going to go the longer the argument is going to go so you have to find ways to say more with less you have to find ways to say more with less so does the amount that I speak have consequence yes there is this it's this idea of the more words it takes to tell the truth the more it sounds like a lie like the more you have to say

to explain something to me the more I start to assume you don't know what you're talking about and we have this way of what they I guess they call it word vomit where you just you talk a whole lot people get lost in your sentences and also when you choose to speak makes a very big difference like have you ever been one of those meetings and there's always there one person that has to throw in their two cents they always have to throw out their idea or be the Devil's Advocate have something to say at

every single issue that gets brought up most of the time those are the people that are honestly the least connected to what's actually happening or least part of the conversation because they want you to know how smart they are or how many people they know these are the same people that name drop like every other sentence uh the person that is like you know oh I was talking with Stephen the other day oh you know Stephen right oh you're a great guy uh you know and they start to name drop just so you know know

how many people that they know insecurities are are very loud confidence on the other hand is very quiet insecure people have the the need to say everything so that I sound more believable so you'll know how much I know and how smart I am confident people have the urge to say nothing because they have nothing nothing to prove like if you disagree with me on something that I know to be true I I wouldn't be nearly as affected let's say uh like we both have on a black shirt if if you were like uh Jefferson

this a dumb purple shirt you have on okay like I don't need to convince you what I already know the color of my shirt is it's like if you know that about yourself what you have internally inside you don't have the need the insecurity to prove it to everybody else that they're wrong the confidence is very quiet the people that are typically the most looked to are the people that say the least they listen a whole lot more do people capitalize on on that so if you're triggered by me saying that you have a purple

shirt onh have I got the power now because I can like play you like a fiddle if that's you're so easily triggered by something that's so obviously like provocation surely I like I have the power over you now right no I mean I mean the people that are not emotionally intelligent the people that don't have the emotional awareness yeah you can you can press their buttons and play them like a fiddle because what they've done is they've that would be like me giving you the remote say here here's the remote to my emotions go ahead

play them press that button oh yeah oh you made me angry how how dare you instead of handing out remote controls you get in the habit of giving out manuals and so if you want to yell at me and press my button and me to say you can't yell at me like that versus me handing you a manual and go hey I heard you yell at me if you don't mind go to page 72 you can look on paragraph 3 I don't respond to that volume like you're giving a whole different mind shift of this

is what I tolerate and this is what I don't tolerate do you have a lot of um people Pleasers coming to you you know yeah yeah yeah people pleasing is very hard and I mean the thing is you can you can please people just make sure that you're one of them and that's the harder part is I'm always people say I'm always saying yes to things I don't know how to say no to things I don't know where to go with this that's a whole lot harder using your assertive voices helps with that in a

lot of ways and it is about trying to make sure that when you people please with people you have to find a way to set a boundary that is going to protect yourself and that's that's easier said than done it's it's interesting being um I started my first business when I was my first proper business when I was about 18 years old and when you're 18 years old and you're dealing with people that are like double your age and you're different because your skin color is a little bit different you have no experience you I

reflect I was talking to the guy was cutting my hair yesterday because he's a a young black man starting in business and you were aware that every conversation you're having to some degree is a test yeah it's like a test of how much you value yourself how much you believe in yourself and how much you believe in what you're building and what you're saying like it's an interesting way to think of life that like every conversation is actually test a test of your conviction and I was just I was talking to my barber about how

I've changed over time and how business has made me become more direct and more assertive than I was when I was 18 years old because like I wouldn't have survived in some of the rooms that I'm in with like very eccentric billionaires who have done this 40 years before me if if I didn't have that assertive voice if I wasn't able to look them in the eye and say with calmness and a slower Pace what I believe to be true um it's so interesting like just thinking about how so much of our life is about

developing this ability to assert what we believe without the just or the caveats or the excuse yeah where they also go into trouble is when people what I see a lot are people that over apologize I find that that is big with people Pleasers where they say I'm sorry in every single sentence hey so sorry I'm just now getting back to you sorry I just now seen this oh I can't come so sorry like they start to apologize for things that are not a mistake they apologize for things that that are not errors and when

you start to over apologize with every little thing without you knowing it it's slowly Drip by drip corroding your sense of self-esteem your sense of self-worth it's you your self-worth is not tied to how little of an inconvenience you can make yourself by I was saying so sorry I I don't mean to bother you I just have a quick question instead of the over apologies what I teach is use words of gratitude so instead of the um so so sorry I'm late even though you were like one minute late thank you for waiting on me

or thank you giving let's say it's an email thank you for giving me the the time to think on this thank you for giving me the time to reply thank you for giving me the patience you know what the other person is going to think I am patient oh yes I am you're so welcome I mean you're you're using words of gratitude to press that and that's a whole lot easier than the problem of people Pleasers and that's just over apologizing to just about everything or they undercut their words or they say like uh I

hate to bother you but and then they have to say what they need to say in this regard what do the most successful people in the world the leaders the prime ministers the presidents the CEOs have in common as it relates to the stuff we're talking about right now so you know what I'm saying so like are they are they assertive are they people pleases like what do they have in common here what I find that people are people so it's going to most often it's just going to come down to to their personality but

overall your most effective leaders find ways of taking a lot of ideas and words and saying them very concisely the bigger leaders they don't write long emails yeah they so true they don't write long texts rich people don't even say hello in kind regards on [ __ ] emails they just they literally they they send emails like text messages yeah I have I have found in my own life that the Richer somebody is they could care less about an email signature they're not if they even have one and they might give you two sentences maybe

is very very quick and to the point um because it's either they really don't have the time it's not really that it's they they want to have the appearance of being very direct and they don't see that as a an offense they don't see that as an insult they see that that is the way that I'm going to operate they don't write long emails they don't write them in a way that's going hey uh just want to put this on your plate and if if I'm wrong about this you can totally let me know and

I have a question about this what's number three then so you've given me two yeah we say say it with say it with control say it with confidence and three is say it to connect these are how do you have how do you have these difficult conversations with somebody how do you find ways to say what you need to say in one of the most difficult times that gives a lot of people anxiety if they know they have to have a difficult conversation even in weeks ahead especially the day ahead they're just dreading it so

how do I say something to connect yeah what you want to do is get really curious about the other person but not just so much that there is a framework that I'm I can even give you so we can go a step further there is a frame and I call them conversational frames when to connect with somebody it is a fancy word I think connection can be overused at times just means I say something that you can understand and you acknowledge me that's all we're looking for doesn't mean that everything's happy doesn't mean it's a

Hallmark car I can connect with you and still be upset at you my dad would used to tell me if I came if I disagree with something he'd say he would go you don't have to like it you just need to understand it I mean that that right there was a great example of allowing me to connect with him and giving me the the space to disagree if you were to begin your sentence with I'm not asking to change your mind or I don't need to change your mind it's almost like a relief before you

say the rest of what you need to say now you're not in that combative fight or flight of do I have to defend myself at any time so connection is this way of setting up conversations that is going to get you more of what you want we talked about the frame here's how to do it and this is the most effective tool that you can use for a difficult conversation number one you're going to begin with telling them what you want to talk about number two you tell them and this is the most important how

you want to end the conversation what you want to walk away from and three you get their buyin into that conversational frame this is what it sounds like let's say this is I need to come to you and talk about something serious so first I'm going to say what we need to talk about Stephen I like to talk with you about some comments you made at last Thursday's meeting two I'm going to tell them how I want to walk away it sounds like and I want to walk away from that conversation with the understanding that's

not going to happen again three I'm going to get their Buy in I'm going to say that sound good you're going to say yeah now you know exactly where we're going you know exactly what we're going to talk about you know when that conversation's going to end and how it's going to end and now I have your Buy in and it's like almost an invisible contract when somebody goes yeah that's good we can talk about that they don't want to leave it they don't want to break their word so they they know that they're going

to be stuck in it and then is there anything I need to be aware of when I have that difficult conversation with them so so that I don't so that I'm successful in getting to that outcome number one would be set the goal of knowing where it's going to end that that is the hardest probably the biggest downfall of the difficult conversation people expect them to go how they had it in their head they want the conversation happen just like they had it while they were brushing their teeth that morning or driving on the way

into work they're like okay I'm going to say this and they're going to say this and you expect everything to go just how you had it in your head but as soon as I say that one thing you weren't expecting all of a sudden they disagree with you and you go wait that's not how it's supposed to be they were they were supposed to say this they were supposed to say I'm right they were supposed to say they're wrong I mean uh how's this going to go and then it begins to drown falter like that

because when we go into those sort of difficult conversations whether it's with a colleague or our spouse or whoever it might be much of the objective I think for some of us is to is to win the conversation yeah in whatever definition of winning one might have is endeavoring to win a conversation a good idea I teach that you never want to win an argument and this is why when you look to win an argument you will often lose the relationship like if you set out to only prove people wrong yeah you might win the

point but you will lose the person you know being right doesn't keep you company let's put it that way when I look at his arguments as only something to win all I've won is really the first step to to apologize typically when you set out to win it because most arguments aren't really one it's just they're one by forfeit somebody goes I I'm over this or you said it something that was really hurtful that makes them say I don't want to uh we're done I don't want to talk about this an argument eventually burns out

that's what happens but when you set out to win you will lose the relationship like if you you and I are in an argument and I say something that's really hurtful and then you leave you hang up the phone what have I won yeah I mean what I I've I've won awkward silence now when we pass each other in the hall I've I've won that awkward feeling now I have to pick up the phone and apologize I still have to find a way to probably work with you or live with you what have you proven

when is ever you go on the social media and disparage somebody's political belief ever changed their mind ever there's been so many arguments I've had with like my girlfriend where I have quote unquote won and I felt like [ __ ] yeah you will cuz I cuz she like she might come to me and say you know what I understand your point and I'm I'm sorry and there's part of me that just feels like [ __ ] and I it's it's because I thought that's the outcome I was looking for but actually the outcome I

was looking for was resolution and I actually love this person so much that a concession was not like was actually not I it's not what I wanted I actually wanted to be happy with them yeah so I to you know I was think of so many some some recent examples where my girlfriend came to me and apologized for something where we were like disagreeing about it and I just felt like [ __ ] that she apologized it's not to explain yeah yeah yeah well no it's not an uncommon experience whenever you feel like you had

to always be right and that's what we really want we want the last word when you have the last word you are typically first up to apologize that's all you've that's all you've bought yourself that's the that's your prize congrats and when that happens you find a way of going that's not really what I I wanted why did I say that that was just that was just hubris that was just me I just had a feeling of being right and sometimes we have that feeling of when especially in terms of people that are in charge

of other people um we expect others to do what we say when you're in work mode and you say I need this done people get it done you set the tone this is how we want to do it and sometimes we translate that into our own romantic relationships oh no I said it needs to be this way so you know what you to do you need to do it this way MH and it's a different shift when you're doing something that's romantic versus something that is you have to be captain of the the ship and

so whenever you're in those difficult conversations you only seem something to win you're going to have a hard Pro problem what I teach is instead of seeing arguments as something to win you see them as something to unravel meaning what we want to do is pull my way and then you pull it your way and it just makes it worse makes it worse we have to give up and it's not until that next conversation that we actually try and care of what happened I will often tell someone help me find the nod help me find

the knot and what I'm doing is encouraging them to say I'm not saying what's wrong with you I'm not saying can can you be any more stupid I'm saying Help me find the nod it's a way of detaching the issue detaching the problem saying this is something for us both to look at help unravel where's the what am I missing that phrase right there is very very effective if if you can just ask them the question what am I missing they will always tell you CU most likely it's not something that you're focused on you're

only focused on what you're saying you're not focused on what they're hearing big big difference I have um two glasses on the floor here yeah um try not to spill it nice since I've been a waiter um so I have these two glasses of water in front of me what is I know there's an analogy you have for having a good effective conversation that can be demonstrated with these two glasses of water yeah so let's say that this glass right here is all of my thoughts and knowledge and your glass is all of your thoughts

and knowledge and not just what you think now these are things that you've known throughout your entire life so if I were to tell you something about I want to get your thoughts maybe a political opinion or something that's a religious belief I'm talking like deeply held beliefs that you grew up with that's what's in that cup right there when we go into a conversation with someone often what we find is especially if it's like a stranger that what I say in our first conversation should convince you automatically that if I were to take all

of my knowledge right here and I pour it in there should be no problem but what but what happens when I start to pour into here it overflows meaning you have no no room you have no room for what I want to share whatsoever it's going to just it's overflow instead what you have to find ways to ask questions and get really curious meaning instead of me pushing my point instead of saying why do you believe that beginning your question with why I start to get really curious about how did you come to believe that

where did you learn that when did this happen ways that I get to ask questions every day like I do as a trial attorney to find ways of getting to the issue of what's that deeply held belief where does it come from because only then let's go ahead and pour yours into mine there you go perfect and so it's only then until you have space that I'm asking questions when every I ask questions you start to answer just a little bit more and then you answer just a little bit more to where you actually have

space the care at all to what I'm going to tell you like you can't f I can't fill a glass that's already full with new thoughts it's not going to happen it's not until I can get you to pour it all out till you'll ever be receptive and have room for what I want to share with you so that's the key in difficult conversations that you have to find ways to get really curious about who's the person behind the words because the person you see isn't the person you're talking to I might be talking to

Stephen right now but there are things that happen in your life that you believe that happen long before I ever talked to you and we have this huus about us that we think that just because I told you you should believe something right at this moment you're going to automatically change your mind Minds don't get changed in one conversation they happen over a year of a hundred conversations a thousand conversations before anybody will ever be receptive to what you have to say so what's like a real world example of this idea that you might not

be talking to step you might be talking to something he's dealing with yeah so let's put it in terms of I've had a a client before this is not a let me rephrase that I had a deposition before where I was talking to a witness and he was a huge mountain of a man his name is Bobby lapre I'm talking Ste he was huge his hands I mean he just looked I looked like I was physically deficient in every way next to this guy and it didn't matter what I asked him Stephen he got mad

at me I mean I was asking him basic things like where were you where were you born okay and where' you where'd you go next and what happen next and every time he would just get angri and angrier and eventually I had to ask him I said do you need a break and he said no but I got something to say and I thought I thought he was about to just flipped the the table on me it was just so furious and I asked him well once he even told me he said you you can

cut all this buddy buddy stuff except he didn't say stuff and he said you you lost lawers you attorneys you're the worst thing to happen in this government you're the worst thing to happen so you can go on and ask your stupid questions but I don't trust you as far as I can throw you well instead of taking that bait which most people wanted to do I asked him a question I said what am I missing what's what are you struggling with right now in your in your life what's been your biggest struggle and they

have to ask about they have to answer questions in a deposition and what I learned was that he big bobul pray this huge guy had just put his mother in a nursing home and he was the only one to take care of her his dad had died his brother was off and he had been getting letters for months about his mom and her home from lawyers about foreclosing making demands debt collection all these things that he just didn't understand and so right then in that moment I represented everything he knew about the law and lawyers

and everything else and so the person I saw was an aggressive mad witness the person I was talking to was a worried son and and we got to talk that out and I helped him and it was a ended ended wonderful we ended actually hugging but every day you have these micro moments of the person you see is not the person you're talking to the the waitress that looks like she's being rude and dismissive is actually worried because she should have gotten off two hours ago and her mom is still keeping her kids or you

have somebody who even in the workplace who seem like they're a little bit short on their their phone call with you somebody who looks like they're aggravated actually their day began because you know he and his wife are going through a divorce and they stayed up all night arguing everybody has a struggle that you can't see they're having a conversation in their head that you were not invited to and so when you have the patience to try and understand the person behind the words it's going to go a whole lot better for you and they'll

feel that when you just want to accept them for what they look like it's it's always different like when I if I were to tell you you were wrong about something for me to change your mind like right now I most likely I'm not saying that Stephen's wrong I'm saying your parents are wrong I'm saying a grandparent's wrong something you grew up your whole life was wrong that camp you went to Growing Up was all wrong there's pieces and identities that have all combined into what you believe now and we have this horrible habit of

thinking for some reason that if I say it to you right in this moment it's all going to change and you're going to just immediately conform to what I want you to be being triggered is a Hallmark of that isn't it like being when we say oh God they're like easily triggered it's really you're scratching at an open wound that might have been there many years ago I I was reflecting as you were speaking about a particular friend that I have who I remember a conversation with him in the middle of the pandemic where he

like turned to me and said um it's people that are young and healthy that are ending up in the hospital beds and I remember saying to him I was like I was living at his house I was like no I don't think that I think the NHS website says it's people that are like out of shape and slightly older that are ending up in hospital beds and he like was like really really triggered by that and I remember he's like good friend of mine so we had a conversation about it and we dug and dug

and dug cuz we like really good friends like why why is it that all of us as like boys we know in like the group chat when we're bantering all we've got to do is say like now you're wrong wait one one thing and it's like Red Mist yeah and we had like a really open conversation about it over really over the last like year and a half and he said um when I was younger all of the teachers thought I was stupid and also I then got bullied on the playground because people thought I

was stupid and then I found text messages from my grandmother to my mom where they said I was stupid and then I found on my report card they' basically written me off so 30 years later when we're having a conversation just a trivial conversation about the pandemic when I go no I don't think that's right and I like pull up the website and stuff and he gets like sees the Red Mist as mean him call it now it all stems back 30 years to this experience of on the playground so like you said it could

be proving proving someone wrong but in that case it's actually like proving the bullies right it's proving all the people that hurt him right and it's showing up 30 years later is this Red Mist the story ends with him going to a therapist and speaking about it and he's resolved it now to the extent to which he can where now when he feels that feeling he's able to point it he knows what it is and so it doesn't make the decision right knowing your trigger is one of the biggest ways to defend against that to

know your trigger and it's funny how just like your friend is telling you so many things in everybody's life goes back to the playground MH like we can remember that thing that that one kid said like right now you probably remember it somebody said in high school came straight to mind and and it's it's been years years but you remember it and it lives with you for that long um just simply what they had said in that moment that you've created that identity that's that's a trigger and if you tend to hit somebody with a

trigger it's different like you can always it's very telling in the courtroom when somebody takes a level one conversation and they ratchet it up to a level 10 it's very dispor disportionate and it tells you that there's a conversation happening in their head that you weren't invited to it tells you that something else is is going on and when you have the patience and the discipline to find that person rather than just fighting the surface it you will always have a deeper connection with that other person if you're dealing with someone in your romantic relationship

ship at work whatever that is easily triggered in that regard what advice would you give to the person dealing with that person who is like continually easily triggered they see the Red Mist all the time it's almost impossible to talk to them because they immediately just flip to 10 yeah they avoid the difficult conversation you feel now that you can't even have that conversation with them because they're immediately going to Gaslight you or they're just going to go straight to 10 and they're going to be flooded right you know that phrase that I've heard before

about like when the brain gets flooded like they just get welmed in there yes what do you do with that kind of person you just curious or well it's I don't want to just say curious because I don't I think that doesn't do it justice one would be you have to delay what you what they said from when you respond you have to add a lot of distance there because if you continue to engage and go why why can't you talk about this what's wrong with you that will only spiral it more what they're going

to hear is something is wrong with me something I am feeling is bad when in that moment their body is fighting their body is going I feel threatened I feel anxious I got to get out of here and it's happening in micr minutes that you there's nothing you're going to be able to say that's going to help that trigger aside from you allowing them the space to have it so that means you're going to find ways to approach conversations with that in mind so one would be adding distance and not addressing it in that current

conversation because they're triggered you don't want to do that you want to find it in the second conversation so in the first one you can easily end it with hey we can drop it not a problem we can talk about it later because problems happen Stephen when you try and push people into having conversations on your timeline in other words when they're not ready ever had somebody come up to you and go hey I need to talk to you right now and and you're like you want to talk like that's the last thing you're trying

to control my time this is not what I want to talk about right now and I'm not ready for this conversation and that that causes a big problem when somebody's trying to push their timeline on you um we can talk about ways to to deal with that but it is that's what happens and when you do it with somebody going what's wrong with you let's talk why can't you talk about this right now you're just pushing them into a corner and you're making them harder I mean you just they become hardened they'll totally shut off

from you then they're gone then they won't come back for several days most likely so when you start to push on them things will go wrong so that's when somebody's feeling triggered that second conversation that next conversation is the I like let's put a frame on it I like to talk about what we began talking on on last Monday and I I'm not trying to solve anything I just want to understand where you're coming from so that I can do better can we do that like right there that's going to be a much better way

to set up and frame that difficult conversation rather rather than going hey so um question for you uh what's up with you because something's something's off all right like that's the way that it's gonna you're gonna trigger them again so many people are so interested in understanding how to deal with disrespectful people yeah like being disrespected right so if I'm being disrespected is there a playbook for me to handle that and why is it that so many people are so obsessed with like dealing with disrespect I find that people are really attracted to comebacks of

things and I find that so funny but it's it's a big part of communication for an important reason when somebody is let's say belittling you or being rude or being disrespectful there's kind of I teach is a little bit of a different method for each one and how you handle it makes a very big difference what we typically want to do when somebody's being rude to us or disrespectful we want to throw it right back at their face we want to ratchet it up because now we gota now we got to win so oh you

think I'm stupid how about let me talk about how you're stupid I mean so we want to throw it back at the other person all that does is ratchet it up and then again it's it becomes to who's going to apologize first that kind of is where the game starts to lead um what you I was curious what you have on the book now well I was just looking at this section in your book about dealing with difficult people yeah that's probably my favorite um it's your favorite yeah it was also probably the most popular

part of the book because it outlines a specific manual on how to handle these kinds of people and I've developed it from these people specifically that I've had in depositions and cross-examinations in the courtroom that very compatitive people that you find ways to you think that the power power is in having a direct response back of them that's going to uppercut them like smart people people like you Stephen people like all your listeners we have this desire that when somebody says something ugly we want to send the Zinger like we want to have we want

to craft something so poetic that it's not going to hit them until the two days they go like oh my God she totally got me and that's just not going to happen but the true power is this kind of Be Like Water mentality it's instead of direct with them you're just avoiding it you're pushing it out of the way to where you're going what you're saying is not threatening to me and you do that in several different ways this would be how I'd say how to handle people that are belittling you or giving you disrespect

one you're going to add silence five to seven seconds of nothing two you're going to ask them to say it again let's say it's insults those insults are very direct you're ask them to repeat it and three you're going to just let that sit whatever they say so for example um let's put it in terms of somebody who let's give it an example this would be somebody who's giving you just a straight insult insults are different from a disrespect or something being rude insults are very direct saying somebody saying like you're ugly right um how

I if I were to say you're Ugly how would you respond and you're not by the way un let's just say so it's so hard because it's like the context dependent like you laugh but if it was like it depends on the context doesn't it yeah I was I was like oh that's that's the shirt you went with I guess all right okay like that's whenever somebody is insult uh insulting you yeah we have this ability to get really mad and on it and get angry but best way to do it is let's say if

you told me you know I I really think you're an idiot Jefferson give it a a little bit of silence and I would repeat I'm an idiot Jefferson now it's going to put it Spotlight right back on you for you to confirm it double down on it or you're going to apologize a lot of time in arguments people take it back I'm sorry I shouldn't have I shouldn't have said that my head was I got to in front of it but if they double down on it what all you need to do is just thank

them thank you in other words thank you for showing me who you are thank you for making sure that I'm not going to be with you uh anymore and this is who you are in my life very different from let's say with somebody who is belittling you uh patronizing you being condescending to you this is where uh it gets fun this is one of my favorite ones so let's let's give this a um a test oh Stephen I see that uh you lost some weight that's that's great man good good for you how would you

typically want to respond to that thank you yeah now if I had said something that was um a little bit more ugly if it was like oh you finally lost some way I was wondering where you would yeah uh that's that's good on you would you still say thank you again no yeah what would you say that's rude yeah yeah exactly like oh okay that's that's a little offensive so here's what I would want you to do add silence we're going to have five to 7 Seconds of Silence MH and what that does is allow

them their words to fall so it's going to one tell you that their words aren't threatening you're adding that space in there for two reasons one to calm you down because you're can to be using that breath we talked about second of all allows them to hear their words back because it's like they walk their words out onto a plank and now they're all alone so if you if you had said something ugly to me and um you said something like oh well um Jefferson great to be here I guess I I guess we'll include

you I guess you just came it it's something that made me feel like I wasn't wanting and if I just let that hang for a little bit and then I asked a question of intent these are what I call questions of intent where it says did you say that to upset me did you say that to hurt me or did you mean if you begin your phrase with did you mean did you mean for that to offend me did you mean for that to be rude I do this a lot in uh email correspondence or

texts when somebody sends something to you and you feel like all of a sudden it's rude but really if you just text did you mean for that to sound short like it cures up almost instantly because it's not exactly a lot of the time people don't mean it that way but they're going to say something to you that is going to respond in most likely they're going to say no they're not going to know how to handle that they're not going to do with that if you can respond with um imagine imagine being like imagine

being the person who would say that or how did you want me to feel or ask them how did you feel when you said that how does it make you feel when you say that you're going to say something ugly to me and I give it a big pause and I would respond how does it make you feel when you say that to me or I'm surprised you said that out loud can you just tell them how it felt can you just say that was really hurtful yeah you can but that's that's giving them what

they want you're giving them the dopamine that's what they wanted they said that so that it would hurt they're saying that for because in their mind they wanted you to have that sense of pain they wanted to grab that from you they wanted that sense of control so when you say oh that hurt often that's exactly what they wanted in that moment now it's going to take them some time to realize oh I was really a jerk about that but in that moment what they're wanting is that hit a dope me from you they're wanting

that sense of control so when you ask them a question so if I were to say that was that was rude they're you're giving them what they want that's a direct statement but if I asked did you say that did you say that to be rude did you mean for that to sound rude now they have to admit that's very different now they have to admit what their intent was with that now they have to say yes or no most what they most of the time what they do is they kind of fumble over their

words and they go what I I mean what I meant to say was or no no no no I'm sorry what what I meant was they don't want to they don't want to hurt now going to hurt the reputation now they're going to they put themselves way too far out on a Ledge and that's much harder on page 166 of your book the next conversation you say when you hear someone say something rude or insulting understand that they're wanting something from you that something is dopamine the Feelgood hormone that something is dopamine yeah so when

they when somebody says something to be ugly what they're wanting is your emotion they're saying I'm unhappy I'm only going to be satisfied if I can make you a little bit unhappy too that's where I'm going to feel justified in this I'm only going to feel Justified when I've caused you pain and when that happens your best defense against that is to be like a wet blanket like be a soggy piece of bread that they can't do anything with they can't move that they can't control that and what you're telling them in that moment is

it's not going to be that fun for you you that's the best way to handle a bully bully does something and you ask them did you say that to hurt me or does it feel good for you to say that or how did you want me to respond when you said that let's say I came in and I go oh I guess we're you know I guess this is okay yeah I guess we can talk in here that's fine right I mean that's kind of condescending yeah wouldn't you say and if you had asked me

in that moment um did you mean for that to sound rude I'd be like oh no oh no goodness either either I'm calling it out or you'd say that's that's an odd thing to say out loud can you say that in all context I'm thinking if you can you say that to your like the CEO of the company you're an intern MH and they say something to you and that they look at a piece of work you've made and they go I mean I guess that's okay yeah do you know what I mean does context

matter here well I I still think you could say it I mean it depends how you're going to yeah yes it just depends uh yeah context certainly matters on some level but I mean if if it is a position of just I think if there's a such a huge power Dynamic something like that if you're an intern and you're like look this guy's just having a bad day I don't think I need this is not the time for me to choose to try and have a uh a way of making him feel bad or if

it's like okay I can I'll accept that or I can do better with that there's ways that you can try and diffuse the the rudeness another that I really like to to use this would not be in in that context but that's below my standard for response those are really bad arguments so I've had it where really really bad arguments where you've used that's below my standard for response and they really don't know what to say after that a lot of times when I'm in depositions and somebody has a snarky comment towards me I'll ask

them now how how did you want me to respond to that they don't know they don't really have an answer they kind of just go I mean what I mean what I meant was and they and they fix it but the signal you're sending the whole point of it all is to show them that the next time you choose to do this it's not going to be fun this is not what you're getting that's the whole point of getting them to repeat a lot of the times if I say you know what I didn't I

didn't catch that can you can you say that again they can't bear to say that again it's like conversational boundaries that's what saying yeah so one time I had a case between two sisters and it was about as fun as it sounds uh two older sisters have fighting over our company their dad had passed away I had one sister another attorney friend of mine had another sister and my client was let's say very levelheaded she wanted to preserve the legacy of their family and the company the other had very different Life Choices let's say and

the other one wanted to sell the company well they eventually came to almost an agreement on how they were going to divvy up uh bu buy the sister out we're at mediation and I knew that we knew that this other sister was there's no telling what she's gonna she's GNA say out of her mouth and I had already prepared my client for if she insults if she says anything ugly you're going to ask her to say that again all right so sure enough we get at the mediation table we have a a opening discussion and

the sister the let's say the the more fiery sister goes on this TI raade and and says how everything's against her she hates everything and then she looks at her sister and says and I've never I I've never loved you you're dead to me anyway now that's sister to sister that's like terrible it was it was super sad to watch my client goes I need you to say that again to me the other sister couldn't do it she didn't say that again because it it puts them out on on a Ledge where they they can't

really they're not going to get the effect it's not nearly as effective when you say it the second time the first time was through emotion it was the amigdala you get it and the second time was you're forcing them to into the prefontal cortex to make like a a logical you got it yeah now now they have to think does this make sense for me to say again yeah because the first it the first effect isn't there it's not as uh it's not as powerful the first time when somebody gives you an insult and you

say you know I didn't I didn't catch all that I need you to say that again for me can you repeat that most of the time they won't because they know at now I look bad because you all you did about with that question has put the spotlight right back on them and they can't they can't take that so they don't know what to do with it it's interesting because some of the things you as you were talking I was thinking is this like advice for dealing with really toxic people or is this also advice

just for dealing with like couples arguing because it sounded the type of person that would not respond to that really hurt me yeah sounds like a bit of a monster right like a narcissist when when somebody is so if my girlfriend turned around to me and said that really hurt me I'd like it would kill me yeah some people yeah let's put it in well one it's because you love the person right and she loves you and so that's that's a little bit different when you're dealing with people that are everyday rude at the workplace

or the office or maybe you are in a relationship with somebody who's a narcissist or somebody who is toxic or you have that bad relationship I think it's perfectly okay to use these kind of sentences that are going to put somebody back I mean like even let's say in my own relationship okay I certainly use we both use wife and I the did you mean for that to sound short I've also said something and said something I didn't mean and she's come back using my own things no that's not okay yeah and she oh my

gosh yeah and and and she'll say you know did you did you say that to upset me but and you're like but but at the same time understand that when you say those kind of things some sense of it is giving grace to the other person of not accepting that what they meant to say or what they say was what they meant to say because maybe I I'm giving you the chance here to clarify if I were to say did you do you mean for that to sound rude and you're like oh goodness no that's

not what I meant I'm giving you the the grace of a second chance rather than just deciding to to take it personal we do that a lot on text message like somebody sends you a text and all of a sudden you're feeling like oh my gosh this is the rudest thing ever and then you find out they didn't give it with that kind of inflection or tone at all I was thinking of two things at the same time I was thinking when we approach these difficult conversations with difficult people is there a certain priming that

we need to do to ourselves to make sure that we're in the right frame of mind because even as a podcaster I see huge variance in my ability to like speak and articulate myself based on things that happened in the last 24 hours yeah so is there do you ever think about like when you've got those big cases coming up how to prime yourself to make sure that your brain your mouth everything is working in unison and you feel like emotionally ready for that conversation yes so one I I do one is I let's put

it in terms of work and home because everybody listening right now us included we have a a work life and then we have a home life and sometimes it's really easy to switch those up is never allow myself to be put in a conversation when I'm not ready especially important conversations like you don't want to wait until you have 10% of your battery left for 100% of a conversation it's just not going to go well when you wait till you finally put the kids to bed and you're both drained and exhausted or you've had a

really hard stressful day and you're mad and like that's the time when it's right before bed that you're going to decide to have the most important conversation between you two it's never going to go well like because you're aggravated you're agitated you're probably hungry and so you you don't set yourself up for failure and that would be don't have a conversation when you're not ready ways to and this goes same for your triggers is part of that self-awareness is saying that out loud meaning I'm going to begin my sentence with I can tell I can

tell I'm not ready for this conversation or you say something that's triggering to me I can tell I'm getting defensive I can can tell that's upsetting me like when you say it out loud when you claim it you control it rather than me starting to act defensively and being defensive and saying defensive things I say I can tell I'm getting defensive like that now I've said it out loud of that feeling I'm not becoming the feeling I've said it and so there's a big big difference in how when you're in those difficult conversations when you

want to prepare yourself you find ways to one have self-awareness of I can tell when I'm ready when I'm not ready second of all is if you know your triggers and you know what's going to upset you you try and like curb that as best you can when you're when you're not in the fight or flight you're not going to put yourself in a bad position so that that would be the biggest takeaway is don't you put don't put yourself in position to fail and I've also heard you say that when um you're being disrespected

I mean this was the first of the three points you said a second ago is to create that silence again uhuh why is why does that matter what you mean by that yeah so pauses though they are the absence of words they're not the absence of communication meaning there's a difference and pauses between somebody saying I love you and a really long pause before somebody says I love you too or somebody your girlfriend asked where were you last night and you take one second to respond instead of seven seconds to respond they each say different

things so pauses are wonderful at getting the other person and yourself to fill in blanks and when you're dealing with people who are let's say toxic or ugly or just not being nice they will fill in that silence for you and it it does two it does two things it allows you with the breath and the pause to make sure you keep the analytical side pushing the emotion down you're not getting flooded next it's also doing the same thing for them when I add silence I making you almost repeat your words back in your head

and often you've been in those arguments where somebody already apologizes for what they said without you having to say anything you've seen it too on a text somebody says something ugly in a text and you don't respond for a few hours most often they will reply back at least in my world they say like I shouldn't have said that or they'll try and reframe it or they'll edit the text you now you have the benefit of uh hindsight when oh that didn't that didn't sound good or they'll twist their word again to to fix it

so like for example I see this a lot with Liars people who who lie on the stand and in litigation you always have people lie even in deposition just it's just part of it you don't really get surprised by it but silence is the number one like killer of liars because they have conversations in their head for you so if you're going to tell me a lie for example and instead of me going that's not true that's not true and then you're going to it's like you like that okay good they're engaged now I can

start to manipulate the narrative and you'll tell a lie and then it forces me to try and fix it no no no that's not true remember you did this and you did this and you're trying to get around them that's exactly what the liar is wanting the more engaged the more conversation the more believable it feels to you so then you start to doubt yourself like oh maybe they did Silence like just destroys them so if you were to tell me a lie and I waited five to seven seconds and I repeated the question to

you are I repeated your answer let's say I know that you were at the store last night and you're trying to lie to me and say no I was home last night and let's say I think you weren't not to no good at the store and you go uh just say Jefferson I was at the store last night I was um I was at the store last night 7-Eleven at the store last night at the [Music] 711 yeah I'm going to come back to to this conversation in a bit right so all of a sudden

the liar is like oh no no no don't don't do that don't do that don't do that like oh now you're now you're thinking about it now you're thinking about it like you you know I was at the strip club yeah yeah yeah it's like I I know you weren't where where you say so if you can say you add in time like um I want I'll come back to this conversation or if I were to say something feels off they don't like that they Liars don't like that at all because they want you engag

they want more conversation so when you slow it down and you go it's not not even saying I don't believe you don't say that that's that's getting them that's more engaged in conversation but when you slow it down and get quieter of I'm thinking I'm just thinking Liars will start to have the conversation in their head with you they'll start to say things like I mean what what do you I mean what do you let's put myself in your position if you said you're at the store and I didn't really believe you you'd be like

I mean where where do you think I was I mean why why would I be there like they start to try and get into your head so that they can fix it I'll try to twist The Narrative to to place the pieces in a way of they're not going to fill in every piece of the puzzle the jigsaw puzzle but just enough hopefully you get the rest of the picture but silence pauses that's where your real power is because they can't do anything with it and it shows that you're the one in control and they're

the ones that are not and I guess you want if you're lying in that context you want certainty that the other person believes you so the issue with the big pause you gave is if I was at the strip club last night I now don't have certainty that you believe what I'm saying so I need to like keep going until I can convince you yes that I was at you know the 7-Eleven so I now I need to push back on you and say what what you mean exactly why why you asking this yeah yeah

exactly why you asking me this yeah yeah you're wanting more give me a conversation we need conversation I need it now cuz the uncertainty is not good to deal with no oh no they get in their head about it but it's this that same concept we talked about of people who tell the truth they don't they have all the patience in the world if uh if you really were at the store and I was like I I need to think about this for a minute You' be like okay you know it wouldn't bother you because

the those that have told the truth they have they have nothing to hide if you need to think on it you something FS off okay well I'm I'm here to talk about it but that's that's where I was and you do know you know that like regardless if they think about it or regardless of whatever they do next I know where I [ __ ] was so you're only going to un uncover evidence that I was at the 7-Eleven last night that's exactly right you're going to look at my bank statements you're going to see

I was at the 7-Eleven last night so there's a certain confidence that comes with that where you don't need to prove yourself yeah it's a relief it's a confidence of going no I know I know exactly where I am it's that that inner confidence we talked about at the very beginning but the people who don't tell the truth oh I mean I I can if I had a dollar for every time I've seen it where I've asked somebody the question back they said um usually it's texting while they drive I never text I never text

when I drive let's say I asked somebody you asked me the question you know um here we'll run it through so ask me the question were you texting while you were driving that day were you texting while you were driving that day no I never text never text when I drive now notice I said a big word I said never never is an extreme extremes are dead giveaway that they're usually not telling the truth everybody texts when they drive at some point in time even in your car never and always or never it's always or

never true so that's a big one second of all I answered really quickly I didn't breathe or really think about it and try and actually show you that I was trying to remember in time give you a really immediate response so um what you're going to do we're going to replay it again I'm going to say same exact thing and I'm G to ask you to give me about five seconds of time and then I want you to repeat what I said slower cool so ask me if I was um if I was um texting

while I was driving that day were you texting while you were driving that day no no never I I never text when I drive you never text when you drive well on so even that I didn't I didn't even like that so what they'll do most often is they'll even go well I mean I mean I mean sometimes I do because now they you just hinge on that word never so now they know oh that's a risk word and they'll kind of come out of it and go I mean I mean sometimes I do I

mean maybe but but but hardly hardly ever hardly ever when that happens what you typically want to do is give them an out now they've they've put themselves into a corner and now they're looking for an out and a way to do that is go if you were texting it's it's okay do you own a business or do you work in marketing if that's you listen up for a valuable opportunity from our show sponsor LinkedIn I'm an investor in about 40 odd companies and while they operate in different Industries they all face one challenge maybe

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Community LinkedIn is offering you a $100 credit for your next campaign head to linkedin.com diary to claim yours now that's linkedin.com diary and of course terms and conditions apply and only available on LinkedIn ads you think about how your body language is communicating yeah I have 12 jurors that are watching every bit of me as soon as I come into the courtroom I mean oh yeah you you have the judge you have the bayth you have a court reporter you have uh people in the back and you have two benches you have attorneys probably lots

of attorneys they're par legals you have your clients and 12 jurors who all they do is watch you like a Hulk so the good attorneys are pretty emotionless when they hear are almost near emotionalist when they hear bad information bad information being information that goes against your case exactly a client says a witness says something that hurts their case and they just keep on writing or they just kind of sit back and reading the really bad attorneys go stop flopping exactly because all it is you're telling the jurors the jurors go oh they said something

that that hurts their case same thing with uh objecting bad attorneys object a lot objection your honor that's that's leading objection your honor that's already been ruled on uh you know there's there's all kinds of lots of objections and the Rules of Evidence but if a juror says they watch and go oh they're hiding something from me they don't want me to learn this information objection honor that's irrelevant objection honor that's here say oh there's something that's happened that they don't want me to hear why would they do that unless it hurt Mya their case

but the Good attorneys object maybe one or two times and they do it in a way that encourages the discussion a little bit more of almost explaining it uh so yeah it's you always have to watch your body language and how something is affecting you or not like if you have a sometimes sometimes you'll see attorneys go up to the bench and have a quiet little meeting with the judge and the one the attorney who looks defeated you know because they feel like they lost all the jurist think is oh they must have not gotten

what they wanted oh something's wrong it gets it gets in their head same thing I mean jurors are I mean they're just people but we have a six sense about us that we can sense things about if someone is telling the truth or or not at the end of Trials most people don't know this we get to talk to the jurors he had to ask them questions if they want but you can after the trial's done I can go up if you were a juror I can go up and ask you how' you think of

the trial what was your favorite piece of evidence what you know what really made the decision for you and you're amazed at what you thought was a huge piece of evidence they didn't even care about it was like this one little thing you're like you thought about that I had it once where uh the other attorney during they call it Vader in west side of the world we call it a v in south I mean you're asking questions of the jurors and one attorney it was just a really hot room but we learned that afterwards

she didn't really like that attorney at the end of the jury because while he was talking he was sweating a whole lot and it made him look really nervous and so she didn't think that he was really believed in his case so you find like these little bitty things you're like how does that happen but it's it's seriously that critical someone thinks that a witness on the stand is not really being not really crying they're trying to put on an act oh the jury will hang them the jury will just absolutely destroy their case if

they think somebody is putting on a show are there any moments from famous trials that you think about and use his reference points for exceptional prosecution or exceptional defense um that we might know I was recently watching the OJ case oh are you you know I it's funny because we all know of the OJ case but I've never actually like watched the trials and all of those things because it was on Netflix and there were so many moments in there where I was reflecting as you were speaking about like how the prosecution responded to evidence

and how they responded to the glove and all those things are there any moments from famous trials that you you think about that are kind of supportive of your point or yeah I mean a lot of I wouldn't even say famous ones because I don't even the famous ones to me aren't that great it's just because of the high-profile of the clients involved that made it famous but I like you take the Johnny Depp case most other attorneys will watch that and go that wasn't that great it was just juicy because it was it was

drama and some of the the the Witnesses were hilarious and it was just kind of a funny but people got to see what real trial is is like but there's some things of like you know an attorney objecting to hearsay to his own question like things that you go us attorneys go that what are you doing so I wouldn't even say the famous trials but ones let's say that I think of all the time that I grew up um watching is it here it was a case involving a um an old janitor who had gotten

in an accident and they were trying to prove that he didn't remember the events and they were other side was trying to prove they they were right they were trying to prove that the other guy was wrong and when the other attorney came up gave the closing argument he did such a good job of getting ramping up the Dynamics of his voice so you hear that a lot with like preachers and pastors sometimes they their Highs are really high and their lows are really low and so he did this wonderful thing of the way he

would smile at the jury and almost show them that hey you can believe them if You' like but I'm going to tell you the truth and he did this such a way that he could convince someone the way he was talking that you go I just got to listen to this guy I want to hear all that he had to say where he he would do it and he would make his words pause like and hang on every single word I don't remember I don't I was a kid but the reason I share it is

because it was so fundamental to me at the time going wow okay this is how you tell a story this is how you persuade because I'm getting to watch not just the attorney I'm getting to watch the jurors I'm getting to watch how you know what they're appreciating and what matters to them that was really pivotal for me to see those kind of Dynamics at play and is that like he's using inflections and pauses yes yes like Aunt exactly it's um it's the ability to use your voice um and Vanessa and Vin do wonderful jobs

at this how how do you play the instrument of your voice what I encourage and what I like to teach is how do you how do you persuade even with vulnerability so let's say for example in this moment you're an attorney and I'm an attorney all right we're against each other we each have a client and we're friends in real life but this is business and you know I got to represent my client and here we go we we a juror in front of us have a jury in front of us and let's say that

I go up and I say ladies and gentlemen let me tell you what you're going to find in this case is the other side is just totally wrong everything that my clients's done has been 100% correct they followed the law they followed the rules they followed every single policy and what they're demanding from us is just absolutely insane you're going to find at the end of this case with all the evidence I ask you to find for my client all right that's what I just said now you go up there same jury and you go

ladies and gentlemen I'm going to tell you right now my clients could have done better they made a few mistakes they're going to be things that you're going to see that they follow every rule the best that they can and people are people and why we're here is because what they're asking of you is simply unreasonable and it's just not fair and we're only going to ask you to find what's fair so at the end of this case we're going to ask that you find a favor of my clients now anybody who's listening right now

who do you think that they are naturally going to be more drawn towards the case for imperfection vulnerability and fairness you got it they're going to hear me my case of 100% perfectness and go that's not real that's not real we know that experience everybody has vulnerabilities everybody could have done something better and so they're going to naturally gravitate and go you your case you're the truth tellers and once you establish yourself as the truth teller in the conversation it is a hard position to leave once you establish like especially with judges on once a

judge knows that you give him the case law even when it's against you he will believe you for the rest of all time for all your cases because it they know that you you follow the you follow the law you tell the truth so it's much easier when you think I was thinking about it in the context of selling to my clients back in the day when I used to run a marketing business the thing that I found to be most effective was when I told my clients the truth I.E I don't think so what

would often happen is my clients would develop a really good relationship with me so my client might be a CEO of a big billion dollar fashion company right and so they would have a relationship with me the trust the bridge of trust would be with me my team would come in while I was sat with the CEO of this big company and my team would pitch an idea to the brand right if I if I sat there and criticized and pointed out the faults in my team's pitch the deal was done how cool do that

so so we would sit there in his big glass office and I'd say I don't love idea 3 I don't think that's going to work even though and and then I'd say idea one though I think that's the winner idea two is okay but it's not worth the effort idea 3 is certainly not going to work but idea one I think that's the winner and because I was pointing out the flaws in what's my own company yes they trusted me for years I'm telling you and I was being honest I was always being honest so

if I thought it was a bad idea I'd say it was a bad idea and this is the long game yes which is feels counterintuitive right yeah and that's a that's perfectly said and even when let's say I was giving a closing argument and let's say I was defending a company and it was always better if I said now I believe after hearing the evidence you should give their client this I agree with that they deserve this but I can't but it shouldn't be this number right you see how all of a sudden you're like

oh okay well I can agree with that way different if I said they don't deserve a penny like very very different now in everyday conversation it's that same way if I stand by I did nothing wrong I I couldn't have said it any differently everything I said was perfect I'm right is the principle of it whenever you always have there's no way I could have said that differently you were giving the same exact Vibes but if I came to you and began that conversation with I could have said that better you know what happens the

other person goes I could have said that better it's really disarming and it's so better I could have done better like that is a magic phrase I've seen so many relationships um get through Conflict by using the phrase I could have done better by Leading with that right there ultimate vulnerability and the other person goes I could have I could have done better too rarely do they say yeah you could have they don't they really don't uh they they almost always take that down because it's much more it it just it brings down their offensiveness

what about when you're dealing with someone that you don't like oh yeah well a lot of life is like that right yeah the secret to dealing with someone you don't like you treat them like they do you treat them like they do like you and that you do like them it's hard though isn't it because your body responds it is hard your body starts to give it away exactly well you've done harder things in life you know yeah but it yeah your body does I mean but there are some let's put some parameters around it

one you want to limit that amount of contact if you're around them the whole day a whole lot harder if you can be in front of them for 2 three minutes easy second of all is be mindful of who's around you because people are watching and it's that uh I forget how the phrase goes but if you argue with a fool onlookers don't know the difference yeah yeah it's like they don't who's so if you all of a sudden act rude to someone and they deserved it because of what they did two weeks ago somebody

in the room is they're not going to blame the other person they're going to put it on you so don't give someone a reason to you know affect your integrity so when you just act like they do treat them like they like you your life will go better because it'll make you feel better one it'll make you feel like the better person two let's say that other person is ambivalent on you if you show that you don't like them all you're doing is just confirming to them this person hates me and you know what I

don't like them either mhm it's just reinforcing that feeling now they're sure to not like you but when you don't give them an enemy there's nothing they can do that's what happens in a lot of conversations arguments people are looking for an enemy they're wanting someone to justify that behavior and when you don't give it to them it's very frustrating I mean in trial litigation one of the most effective things you can do is just kill someone with kindness when ever you're not ugly or rude you don't give them somebody to be the villain because

that's what they want that's how they want to justify their their bad behavior of how they're treating you MH and when you just act like you do like them you limit the amount of time or you're very objective and very neutral of like hey I'm I'm here to talk with you about this and then I'll be on my away like as long as you can be very direct and you're not giv those snide comments if somebody asks what time it is and you go I mean you would know if you had a watch like that's

what you want to do and in just instead of giving them the time go about your day yeah don't don't give somebody an excuse to lower your integrity what about um the subject of small talk which we all I mean I think most people hate small talk I especially I don't like small talk but many people hate small talk is there is there a skill at all to being a real master of small talk in your view one would be don't ask questions that elicit a one-word response these are what they call closed ined questions

you want these for cross-examination because on cross-examination I just want yes or no questions did you go to the store yes no I want you on open when I'm on direct examination I want to open you up to discussion I want you to talk more so what you do is you take advantage of asking questions that open you up ask open-ended questions these are questions that begin with how or what or when or where instead of uh like did you go to the store the same effect would be did you have a good weekend I'm

only limiting you to a yes or no you talk about these conversational goals yeah having a conversational goal in your small talk you talk about on page I think 40 45 and 46 of of this book yeah so as a conversational goal I'm a podcaster I know I'm meeting you today so I walk in here with a goal in mind that when I start speaking to you I'm trying to get somewhere right is that is that what you mean by conversational goal well there's two separate sides you want to have a conversational goal really for

any conversation that you're going to have now that's different if like you're in your hoodie and sweatpants with your friend watching a movie like you don't have to have a conversational goal saying if you're on one-on-one with somebody at work it's not a bad idea if you go into their office you have a goal for where is the conversation going to end because otherwise it spins anxiety in the other person like if somebody text you and says we need to talk period you're like I I automatically think it's the worst it's like oh something's terrible

they we're we're uh we're breaking up something's terrible something's on fire it's the worst because it's that anxiety that that trigger of the unknown so instead you always want to have a conversational goal like the frame we talked about you're telling them how you want the conversation and same kind of thing with small talk but when it's much easier when you set a goal that's very low like instead of saying I want them to be so impressed with me they don't know what to do what's more impressive is when you're curious about the other person

I want to make sure that I ask at least three questions of this person and see what they have to say that's a great goal I want to make sure that my goal is understanding where they're coming from just a little bit more so with small talk people love to tell them how they got there people love to talk about themselves everybody knows that one question to ask is how they got to the present moment for example how did you how did you learn that where did you come across this yeah how did you how

did you get in where you are today and people are like oh let me kind of talk about myself for a minute and people love it because they get to tell a story very different if I said hey what'd you do this weekend all it was good we you know stay at home that's not there's no story element to that there's nothing you can do with that but if you get them talk about a story of what led them to their present moment much better another tip is you get to talk to them about things

that are happening in the future rather than looking at the past the past is really not that great for people because they feel like it's boring they don't feel like the past of something is that remarkable but they typically find things that they will look forward to in the conversation what are you looking forward to doing this weekend what are you excited about what's coming up for you they'll find things that go kind of oh well I'm kind of excited about this fine Z but if you ask about what's happening in the past they kind

of have this like ah you know I just it's in the past I didn't really do anything what are the things that you admire the most in some of the peers you have as a trial attorney is there a particular trial attorney that you admire the most through history or through that you you've encountered and if so what is it about them that you admire so much oh that's hard there's a lot I mean I mean it is very cliche but I'm a huge Abraham Lincoln like nerd why uh because of the way he was

able to get people in his Circle in the most unaggressive unassuming way so he um when he ran as a nominee for the Republican party convention he was a no-name I mean he was I mean pretty much a noname he had run for Congress a few times but he was not the the clear winner all the other people that were involved um were the the main Front Runners the main Front Runners the people that were big out William Seward you had mlen you had Stanton all these guys that um deserve the spot to be the

Republican Party nominee for at that time and lo and behold a lot of different reasons Lincoln won now what he did was as soon as he won nomination for president he turned around and invited those men into his cabinet now that is like that would be like President Trump turning around inviting everybody who ran against him who criticized him for the last election cycle and saying be on my cabinet that that's like any president saying oh all you opponents who said why I shouldn't be me and why I should lose come be part of my

my cabinet and it went from them hating him at the beginning of saying he's so unqualified trying to hurt him hurt his reputation to like sobbing at his funeral like they couldn't even imagine what the world was going to be like without him and he did it so well in how he brought people in Doris I think it's K Goodwin has a wonderful book called Team of Rivals I love it and it just goes into the all all the details of each of these personalities and how you dealt with them how somebody even went out

to the newspaper and and was trying within his own cabinet trying to cause problems he didn't even address it with him instead he brought him in even closer made him feel important give him more jobs like ways of just handling the Dynamics this very emotional intelligence and so he was wonderful at telling stories I that was his main thing people just love to listen to the guy and so I just I think that is such a beautiful portrayal of how to handle life that some of your enemies all you need to do is just bring

them a little bit closer and understand them a little bit more you're going to find you have a much better life do you think there's an element of like spirituality or religion that somewhat ties into this I was thinking of like the Buddhist philosophies of and just various religious and spiritual philosophies of like forgiveness and um taking the higher ground and right and I for an i makes the whole world blind I agree yeah I mean mine is be quick to listen slow to speak same thing I mean if you look at the Bible book

of James is full of these wonderful little Proverbs about how it's the power of the tongue I mean it is to control who you are it's you control the power of the tongue and so it is it's so fascinating how what we say really is tied to just our entire Essence who comes into a room I mean it's what you say is who you are like for the vast majority of your life like what comes out of your mouth is controls what they think of you controls your reputation controls where you're going to go I

just it's simply what you say next I mean you can't you can't call yourself a kind person if you don't use kind words I mean it's really what you say when go I don't really like that person what you really mean is they say things that I don't like and so it's just the power of of what we say that truly can change everything about your life it's a big deal yeah it is it's a big calling it's a really big calling and I think that those who invest in their words invest in using better

words will have a better life they'll find that they'll have more peace they'll have more control they'll have more confidence and it's not something they can buy on Amazon it's not a it's not something that they can just get it is simply by what they choose to come out of their mouth that can make the difference and what does that process that Journey look like because some people will think I've listened to this podcast now and I've I've got the the tips the strategies I've got some of the the big picture ideas but you know

I'll Implement that I took notes etc etc but then next week their spouse rolls in yeah starts shouting at them whatever colleague at work triggers them whatever and they just revert back and they go [ __ ] yeah what is that I want to give people some sort of like framing on the journey to be going from where you are now which might be quite ineffective and breaking all of the rules that we've talked about today to being a 10 out of 10 Master Communicator what should one expect that journey to look like yeah so

let's say for people who listen to this podcast read my book would there are going to be themes that naturally come out to them that speak to them more than others or versus another person so it's not like it's linear like all of a sudden you need to just you know do this one two step uh and then you're and you're done there are going to be certain elements of our conversation that are going to appeal to somebody what they need to do is grab onto that and study that and they're going to find ways

to um focus and get a discipline on that so let's just focus on one rule that they want to improve don't try improve your entire everything just try and prove one thing so if you have a habit of let's say adding adverb to every sentence essentially basically literally just so very and you have all this fluff in your emails and you don't want to do that well you're going to catch yourself to do that use I have an AI where that's what I do so somebody can put in a a sentence and say no remove

all this stuff and so little bitty things like that where they can train themselves to eliminate the fluff same thing with maybe they find themselves over apologizing just focus on that and do one little better of time and I promise you just even the next sentence that they choose will be better than what they could have put out this one change has transformed how my team and I move train and think about our bodies when Dr Daniel liberman came on the dire of CEO he explained how modern shoes with their cushioning and support are making

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to start strengthening my own foot by using the Viva Barefoot and research from Liverpool university has backed this up they've shown that wearing Vivo barefoot shoes for six months can increase foot strength by up to 60% visit Vivo barfoot.co.nz 20 for 20% off that's the Vivo barfoot.co.nz anymore not only can you get perfect head match in cafes but you can now also make it at home much cheaper in seconds using our flavored matcha powders that I have here in front of me perfect Ted matcha is ceremonial grade and sourced from Japan it is smooth it

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rule number two in your book is about boundaries yeah what do you mean by boundaries in this context and and also could you explain to me this this image here did you know that image I'll put it on the screen for anybody to see it yeah yeah yeah so this is all about how to say no especially let's put it in a context of somebody invited you to uh anything let's say someone invited you to grab a cup of coffee yeah all right let's put it in terms of that's what this this graph is so

the graph says when you have the chance to say no or yes to something and you decide not to say no instead you go oh maybe and then it just lives in your head for the next you know week until they ask again you're like I just put it off but if you say no when you need to say no then it doesn't live in your head rent free so let's let's put it in terms of let's say you and I uh work at the same place yeah and I ask you for hey uh Stephen

let's go want go grab a a cup of coffee at this new place that I saw and you don't you're like look you're thinking in your head you're like look Jefferson you're nice you know but you're not we're not friend friends we're we're just work guys you know I like you at work but you're not that cool like that's I don't want to go have coffee with you that's what you're thinking in your head and besides you're so busy you got too many things to do uh and you need to say no and instead you

go oh oh man um you know maybe maybe I it just depends I I'll let you know like okay and then I'm waiting the whole day to hear from you and now in your head you're like how do I tell them I don't want to do this how do I tell them and now you're just thinking about it and you're just wasting your emotional energy and just instead of saying no when you needed to say no but what if I come up with excuse I say I I just checked I've got a meeting Jefferson so

I can't come for the coffee well if that's real but if it's not real yeah well that's a problem why is it a problem well because one there's always a chance that they could find out two it's just not genuine it's not it's not sincere you you owe it to yourself to to be a truth teller but we we don't want to offend somebody yeah that's a people pleasing right yeah so like someone says to me hey Steve I know you're in Austin I me this actually happens hey Steve I know you're in Austin um

would be great to to get a coffee with you while you're in town right um on Monday and I look at my calendar and I go I'm free on Monday but I just don't want to go yeah yeah so what do I say to them I just go I listen I yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah actually no no I don't yeah um no thanks pass hard pass so here's where the mistake happens all right is when it's that feeling of I don't want to disappoint them I don't want them to not like me that's what

we want that's what really it is I don't want them to not like me I still want them to like me the mistake happens when you go oh man that sounds so great and and wonderful I love to but I can't I have a a full day of of meetings um and that's that's all you leave it at right there okay problem with that aside from it just being not true whatever the put it is hey man I love to but all right the word but has a magic of erasing everything that happened before if

I like look I love you but and I have to say something else oh I think it was great yeah I mean I think being on your podcast was was wonderful um but uh like it just takes away it feels less than what you said so instead starting with the gra like we want to start with the Gratitude oh thank you so much that sounds wonderful I can't that's what we wanted is like that soft Landing uh reverse it start with the no then end uh with the Gratitude so it would be if somebody said

hey can you come to dinner whatever on I know you're in Austin I can't thank you so much for inviting me I I I'd love to meet you or see you the the next time around and if you can add some kindness I've heard that place is awesome hope it's a great time like uh same thing if if you need to tell me no to having coffee I can't or I have bad news I can't let me know how it goes like I'm sure it's going to be a great I've heard wonderful things about it

let me know how it is like it's much easier if you tell them that you can't upfront have you ever had somebody tell you no to an invitation and they're like in a in a text they're going oh my gosh thank you so much I've been I've just been so busy and you know I've have to go feed my cat and it's just been so stressful lately and I'm uh I might be able to go I'll let you know if I can and if anything changes I'll definitely let you know like you're like if if

you just if you don't want to go just tell me no yeah yeah it's that kind of feeling we don't know the we don't have the words though this is the problem yeah I was reflecting over over um new years's I was at a restaurant and I was reading this book about I think it was called the courage to be disliked and it was just developing my thinking on just trying to be a bit more sort of radically can give more radical cander to situations and we were sat in this like bar or whatever me

and my friend and um the owner of the bar had come over and he's being really nice and he likes the podcast and stuff and we're talking and I was trying to practice this art of just being being honest with like in those sort of people pleasing moments and my friend says to him oh we've got to um we've got something to get to blah blah and we hadn't got anywhere to go so I remember interjecting and going we want to leave in 10 minutes so um if they can get here before then then I'll

I'm more than happy to like sign the books and stuff whatever they want me to do and it was so interesting how much better I felt about myself when I was just honest with this guy yes like I was like no I don't have anywhere to be I just want to go exactly yeah but it's not it's not easy on a day-to-day basis cuz even when I did land here in Austin there were people that text me saying of course here in Austin let's go for a coffee and in reality here's what my brain is

saying my brain is saying I need to spend time with my partner yes when I'm not recording this podcast I need to do my bloody like my to-do list and my slack and my emails and then I need to go to the gym as well yeah so it's not that I don't want to go for coffee with you it's that like I have other priorities that are impressing so how would I communicate to them in that moment that they're just like not a high priority like it's not a high priority for me to go for

a coffee yeah so what you want to do is like we said instead of beginning with oh I love to that sounds terrific you know uh but I've had you know I got so much to do and I can't do this they're like H okay instead of that just flip it and say I can't make it this go around thank you so much for inviting me I look forward to hopefully seeing you soon or the the next time or you know if you can't go to wherever they're wanting to go I you can say got

bad news I'm not going to be able to make that happen thank you so much for thinking of me or I appreciate you inviting me hope it's a wonderful time and you don't even need to give them a reason no reason no no no no that's where you make a mistake is when you give them a reason you start to have to feel like you have to justify because you start you're very subjective we're all subjective in our head of a that's not a good enough excuse I have to give something that is worthy enough

of the excuse that I'm not going to be able to make it and then that's where the anxiety kicks in and that's where we just push it off what if the excuses real so I've been invited to this dinner in London I actually can't go but it's a very someone that I care about a lot um I can't go because of my calendar and I haven't responded to the email yet yeah um I think in part because I'm like trying to figure out how to let them even though you see how it's taking up your

energy Tak up my [ __ ] energy yes so I in that situation I should say I I was going to say terribly sorry yeah no no no okay I can't make it on this occasion because I'm in the Middle East um but thank you for the invitation yes and if this ever pops up again please do let me know I'd love to come yeah because all of that is true yeah there it is I think that's perfect there's nothing wrong with saying because I'm in the Middle East it's when it's when it's more like

that bar scenario you don't have anywhere El to go you saying it don't want to okay and don't say terribly sorry uhuh know yeah because there's nothing to apologize for you haven't done anything wrong save your apologies for when you said something you should not have done you've made an actual mistake and I'm not terribly [ __ ] sorry of course not I'm not terribly sorry not sorry at all you're very thankful you're very thankful about it you know you're not sorry at all so instead of the so terribly sorry or unfortunately it's I can't

make it work you see how that's it's when I say I can't make it work I'm signaling to you that I have other things going on and I cannot fit it in it's not that you're not a priority I just can't make it work and so anytime you get that out front and then follow it with the Gratitude I appreciate you thank you so kind of you for thinking of me and then add on a little bit like just a sprig of kindness I'm like it's I know it's going to be a wonderful time perfect

that's I mean that's that's all you need right there instead of going I need to respond to that email and then you're like two weeks later you're like I got to respond to that email and you just get yourself worked up um it's so ironic that I started this with an um while I was holding this particular image nice so what is this image I have in my hand for people that can't see this conversation right now yeah so it it looks like it's verbal fillers so verbal fillers one thing we've come to learn from

doing this podcast is that when a guest on the show uses a lot of verbal fillers people get irritated in the comment section it's so interesting but it's it's it's really taught me a lot about how to speak better because if someone comes on the Diary of a CEO and the guest is constantly saying like like um like like like like um like like it's like the top three comments I just did it then yeah it's the top three comments on the on the video right should I be getting rid of these filler words they're

like like I'm uh if I want to be a more effective impactful Communicator because the great communicators that I see on stages and stuff they don't use like um right if you're on a stage if you're given a presentation don't use them yeah that's that's a real easy rule in casual conversation who cares it's the only makes thing that makes this different is because it gets posted and people are going to pay attention to every single word that you say and they're going to want to put that up everybody has some kind of verbal fillers

if they don't they've been trained on it that's all that can almost be guaranteed they've had some kind of media training if they don't use any verbal fillers because verbal fillers are are very common but if you want to be an impactful speaker at a presentation you don't want to have the um the a the like um Okay add okay right after the sentence like well I'll see different it's a habit for very new attorneys to begin to ask a question of a witness and say okay right afterwards they'll ask so do you see the

red car just give an answer yes okay and they'll write it and then they'll ask another question and but the record so everything's transcribed by a court reporter reporter has okay okay okay throughout it and so what a lot of senior Partners will give the transcript to the junior partner say just review it see how what your verbal fillers are and all of that stuff so it's a great way to train but yeah verbal fillers you don't want to make make a habit of them they happen there's nothing wrong with saying like or saying um

nothing on its face wrong with it it just has a way of cluttering up your sentences if I was going to say yeah so um so anyway I mean and you can totally tell me if I'm way off base here but like so essentially I was thinking and it's it literally does not matter like you see how we kind of like dip in and out and just like get to the point you don't want to do that on a when you need to be very effective in your communication what is the most important thing we

should have talked about that we haven't talked about as it relates to the work that you do the questions that people ask you and the value that you have to give to my audience what's the most important thing what they say what people choose to say has a ripple effect that will reach far more than they ever thought it possibly could it'll affect people that they don't even know exist how they talk to people and what you say today affects how people think of you it affects where you go in your career it affects how

your children will talk to their children it affects how other people will talk to their kids and without you even knowing it another I mean example of that is the playground like we talked about everybody has a memory of somebody's words it was probably very simple the most simple words often are the most powerful the small ones they call EY glasses big huge glasses and I remember being called four eyes I crushed I was crushed being called foure eyes if you call me that today I'd be like so but at eight years old I I

something oh I for something is wrong with me remember that being something that was very important words will last for a very very long time and the people that are in your life will say something to you and you will remember it forever people in high school you think oh everybody forgets about high school no they don't you go to law school everybody forgets no they don't they remember exactly what you said and who you were and even if it's the person across the register or the person taking your order at the cafe how you

talk to them affects how they talk to their loved ones when they go home if they you've made their day difficult they're going to make sure that they reflect that in some sense or it's going to put them in a bad mood so what you say truly has the power to change everything so it's the question and challenge of what will you choose to say with yours Jefferson thank you you're a father aren't you I am yeah you got two two children seven and five seven and five so how are you thinking about what you

say to them oh all the day I mean I constantly you you want your kid to be the best of whatever you want to try and raise a wonderful human so you're very conscious of what you say to them because they soak it all up I find that the best thing that anybody body can do as a new parent is to be a a safe space for their kids and communication one of the most terrifying thoughts anybody who's listening who is a parent is that your kid is not going to come to you in their

time of need so they're going to be in high school and they're not going to come to you with the problems they're going to go run and tell somebody else they're going to go deal with it in other ways that are not constructive because you have established a pattern of making them afraid to come to you and putting them down in a sense that they are afraid to come to you uh with their with their struggles you know arguments are a window into another person's struggle and kids are no exception and the way to think

about that is to say things like thank you for coming to me with this I acknowledge you could have talked to someone else I'm glad you talked to me when you can show them that you're inviting them into that conversation they're going to be more receptive to coming to you again I mean that's that's the main takeaway is what you say to your kids they will repeat and how you say it to their kids they're going to repeat like you you most likely you saw your parents argue a certain way and then I saw my

parents argue a certain way and that becomes our default of how we think other people should argue have you ever been in those those relationships where somebody the other person wants you to fight with them yeah oh gosh yeah and they're like I I don't feel like you care unless we're yelling I don't feel like you care unless it's almost to this very toxic horrible level and only then do I feel like I want you to to argue with me I want to feel like you're in it that's that's what they grew up with that's

all they they know so to them that that is the default and so it's the choice of how how do you want to show conflict to to the generations that that leave after you what do you hope that people who read this book will walk away with it with in terms of value or a change perspective I hope people will find that their words truly have power that it it's within reach that they will no longer have this sense of hopelessness of I never know what to say or I never feel like myself I always

feel like I people please I always feel like I say less or I feel less it's the sense of I can teach you how to argue less and talk more by simply changing what you decide to say next and and I I believe that uh all the world needs is one better conversation at a time I highly highly recommend anybody who relates or resonates with the com conversation we've had today to go and get this book because there's very very few like it that approach it from the perspective that you have of someone who conversat

for a living in many respects and um where there's so much relying on your ability to conversate effectively so I highly recommend everybody who goes gets this book it has these wonderful illustrations in which are some of the graphs that I put on the screen today but it's an incredibly accessible book it's not a book that you have to be a PhD level in some sort of scientific degree to understand it's really really relatable it's written by someone who understands Their audience tremendously well but also clearly someone who's made a ton of content but you

you've 12 million followers online and understands exactly how to relate to people so this is the book for everybody and if you've struggled with conversation if you feel disempowered because you don't have the skill of the tongue like some people do if you feel like you're dealing with difficult people in your life and being manipulated or don't feel like you have the the tools to get your point across and to talk more and argue less and I highly recommend you get this book and I'll link it below for anybody that wants to check it out

we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for and the question that's been left for you is if you could go back in time 20 years and get a message from yourself today what would that message be let's see 36 go back in time to I was 16 I would probably tell him you're doing a good job just have a rule heart-to-heart of you don't have to always just keep chasing for what's next just be real happy

in the present moment I think that started at an early age of always wanting to like anything you want to you want to be the best you want to push yourself you want to do that and sometimes I as being the oldest child and the old soul I I I don't think I allowed myself to feel the freedom sometimes of childhood I just grew up really quickly took a lot of Independence and responsibility on myself at a really early age I was 16 I was taking all of my kids all of my all of my

siblings yeah all of my siblings to to school and I was while I was going I'm I'm going over spelling words with my my youngest brother and dropping him off at first grade so I and I loved it I have wonderful parents I just wanted that responsibility and I think that flew into college of is not in enjoying things and saying no to things that could have been really awesome experiences because I felt like I I feel like I just needed to always be a Straight Arrow have you learned from that time have you changed

in that regard a little bit I think I have because I see it in my kids and my son's seven my daughter's five and I can already tell my son is just like me and which is cool and scary and so I try I find myself when I'm talking to him it's like I'm talking to myself and there's a part of it that's very healing when I can tell him of look even if you he he just did coach pitch I'm like hey look if you strike out I love you just the same you're good

don't worry about it like hey we'll keep practicing like just little bitty moments where I didn't allow for myself I didn't I just kept pushing and push in and I don't think I ever stopped to to do that so seeing that with my son is very healing in that way where I feel like I I kind I'm talking to myself just as much as I'm talking to him Jefferson Fisher if I want to hear more from you byy the book where else can I find you yeah so you can find me on social media Jefferson

fer Instagram Jefferson fisher.com book for the book yeah you can just search Jefferson Fisher on social media and I'll be around thank you so much for doing what you do it's um it's an incredible gift to give people who feel like the lights are off like they don't have as we said a second ago like the tools and the answers to be effective in their life and it's as we said it's such an unfair competitive disadvantage in life to have all the skills all the talent all the potential but it to be trapped behind an

untrained tongue yeah or an untrained mind in the context of how we respond and taking a pause and just having some of those really sort of foundational tools so thank you for doing what you do it's so it's no surprise to me that you're so incredibly resonant In This Moment In Time where so so many of us um quite frankly especially younger Generations just don't know how to communicate we don't know how to have a conversation how to resolve conflict because we're living behind screens now right so much of our you know the muscle of

communication and conversation has isn't being trained in the same way so highly recommend as well if anyone's got any kids out there that are going off into the world and maybe have been glued to Tik Tok for too long for them to listen to this conversation to buy the book um and to get further into your work Jefferson thank you thank you very much it's been an honor the hardest conversations are often the ones we avoid but what if you had the right question to start them with every single guest on the DI Co has

left behind a question in this diary and it's a question designed to challenge to connect and to go deeper with the next guest and these are all the questions that I have here in my hand on one side you've got the question that was asked the name of the person who wrote it and on the other side if you scan that you can watch the person who came after who answered it 51 questions split across three different levels the warm-up level the openup level and the Deep level so you decide how deep the conversation goes

and people play these conversation cards in boardrooms at work in bedrooms alone at night and on first dates and everywhere in between I'll put a link to the conversation cards in the description below and you can get yours at the diary.com this has always blown my my mind a little bit 53% of you that listen to the show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show so could I ask you for a favor if you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us the free simple way that you

can do just that is by hitting the Subscribe button and my commitment to you is if you do that then I'll do everything in my power me and my team to make sure that this show is better for you every single week we'll listen to your feedback we'll find the guest that you want me to speak to and we'll continue to do what we do thank you so much [Music] oh [Music]