The Memorable Thoughts of Socrates by XENOPHON read by Various | Full Audio Book

section 0 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by b tewton the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bishi introduction this translation of xenophon's memorabilia of socrates was first published in 1712 and is here printed from the revised edition of 1722 its author was edward bishi who had produced in 1702 the art of english poetry a well-known work that was near its fifth edition when its author published his translation

of the memorabilia this was a translation that remained in good repute there was another edition of it in 1758 bishi translated the title of this book into the memorable things of socrates i have changed things into thoughts for whether they be sayings or doings the word and deeds of a wise man are alike expressions of his thought xenophon is said to have been when young a pupil of socrates two authorities have recorded that in the flight from the battle of deliam in the year bc 424 when xenophon fell from his horse socrates picked him up

and carried him on his back for considerable distance the time of xenophon's death is not known but he was alive 67 years after the battle of deliam when cyrus the younger was preparing war against his brother artaxerxes nimon king of persia xenophon went with him after the death of cyrus on the plains of cunaxa the barbarian auxiliaries fled and the greeks were left to return as they could from the far region between the tigris and euphrates xenophon had to take part in the conduct of the retreat and tells the story of it in his anabisis

a history of the expedition of the younger cyrus and of the retreat of the greeks his return into greece was the year of death of socrates bc 399 but his association was now with the spartans with whom he fought bc 394 at corinnea afterwards he settled and lived for about 20 years at psilis in elea with his wife and children at silis he wrote probably his anabesis in some other of his books at last he was driven out by the aliens in the battle of mantanea the spartans and athenians fought as allies and xenophon's two

sons were in the battle he had sent them to athens as fellow combatants from sparta his banishment from athens was repealed by change of times but it does not appear that he returned to athens he is said to have lived and perhaps died at corinth after he had been driven from his home at scillus xenophon was a philosophic man of action he could make his value felt in a council of war take part in battle one of his books is on the duties of a commander of cavalry and show himself good sportsman in the hunting

field he wrote a book upon the horse a treatise also upon dogs and hunting he believed in god thought earnestly about social and political duties and preferred spartan institutions to those of athens he wrote a life of his friend agilisus ii king of sparta he found exercise for his energetic mind in writing many books in writing he was clear and to the point his practical mind made his work interesting his analysis is a true story as delightful as a fiction his cyropedia is a fiction full of truths he wrote hellenica that carried on the history

of greece from the point at which thucydides closed his history until the battle of mantanea he wrote a dialogue between hiro and simonides upon the position of a king and dealt with the administration of the little realm of a man's household in his economicus a dialogue between socrates and krytobulus which includes the praise of agriculture he wrote also like plato a symposium in which philosophers over their wine reason of love and friendship and he paints the character of socrates but his best memorial of his old guide philosopher and friend is this work in which xenophon

brought together in simple and direct form the views of life that had been made clear to himself by the teaching of socrates xenophon is throughout opposing a plaintail to the false accusations against socrates he does not idealize but he feels strongly and he shows clearly the worth of the wisdom that touches at every point the actual conduct of the lives of men h m end of section 0 recording by b tune section 1 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more

information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by b tewton the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bishi book one chapter one socrates not a contender of the gods of his country nor an introducer of new ones i have often wondered by what show of argument the accusers of socrates could persuade the athenians he had forfeited his life to the state for though the crimes laid under his charge were indeed great that he did not acknowledge the gods of the republic that he introduced new ones and farther had debauched the youth yet

none of these could in the least be proved against him for as to the first that he did not worship the deities which the republic adored how could this be made out against him since instead of paying no homage to the gods of his country he was frequently seen to assist in sacrificing to them both in his own family and in the public temples perpetually worshiping them in the most public solemn and religious manner what in my opinion gave his accusers a specious pretext for alleging against him that he introduced new deities was this that

he had frequently declared in public he had received consul from a divine voice which he called his demon but this was no proof at all of the matter all that socrates advanced about his demon was no more than what is daily advanced by those who believe in and practice divination and if socrates because he said he received intelligence from his genius must be accused of introducing new divinities so also must they for it is not certain that those who believe in divination and practice that belief do observe the flight of birds consult the entrails of

victims and remark even unexpected words and accidental occurrences but they do not therefore believe that either the birds whose flight they observe or the persons that they meet accidentally know either their good or ill fortune neither did socrates they only believed that the gods make use of these things to pre-such the future and such too was the belief of socrates the vulgar indeed imagine it to be the very birds and things which present themselves to them that excite them to what is good for them or make them avoid what may hurt them but as for

socrates he freely owned that a demon was his monitor and he frequently told his friends beforehand what they should do or not do according to the instructions he had received from his demon and they who believed him and followed his advice always found advantage by it as on the contrary they who neglected his admonitions never failed to repent their incredulity now it cannot be denied but that he ought to have taken care not to pass with his friends either for a liar or a visionary and yet how could he avoid incurring that censure if the

events had not justified the truth of the things he pretended were revealed to him it is therefore manifest that he would not have spoken of things to come if he had not believed he said true but how could he believe he said true unless he believed that the gods who alone ought to be trusted for the knowledge of things to come gave him notice of them and if he believed they did so how can it be said that he acknowledged no gods he likewise advised his friends to do in the best manner they could the

things that of necessity they were to do but as to those whose events were doubtful he sent them to the oracles to know whether they should engage in them or not and he thought that they who designed governed with success their families or whole cities had great need of receiving instructions by the help of divinations for though he indeed held that every man may make choice of the condition of life in which he desires to live and that by his industry he may render himself excellent in it whether he apply himself to architecture or to

agriculture whether he throw himself into politics or economy whether he engage himself in the public revenues or in the army yet that in all these things the gods have reserved to themselves the most important events into which men of themselves can in no wise penetrate thus he who makes a fine plantation of trees knows not who shall gather the fruit he who builds a house cannot tell who shall inhabit it a general is not certain that he shall be successful in his command nor a minister of state in his ministry he who marries a beautiful

woman in hopes of being happy with her knows not but that even she herself may be the cause of all his uneasinesses and he who enters into a grand alliance is uncertain whether they with whom he allies himself will not at length be the cause of his ruin this made him frequently say that it is a great folly to imagine there is not a divine providence that presides over these things and that they can in the least depend on human prudence he likewise held it to be a weakness to importune the gods with questions which

we may resolve ourselves as if we should ask them whether it be better to take a coachman who knows how to drive than one who knows nothing of the matter whether it be more eligible to take an experienced pilot than one who is ignorant in a word he counted it as kind of impiety to consult the oracles concerning what might be numbered or weighed because we ought to learn the things which the gods have been pleased to capacitate us to know but that we ought to have recourse to the oracles to be instructed in those

that surpass our knowledge because the gods are want to discover them to such men as have rendered them propitious to themselves socrates stayed seldom at home in the morning he went to the places appointed for walking and public exercises he never failed to be at the hall or courts of justice at the usual hour of assembling there and the rest of the day he was at the places where the greatest companies generally met there it was then he discoursed for the most part and whoever would hear him easily might and yet no man ever observed

the least impiety either in his actions or his words nor did he amuse himself to reason the secrets of nature or to search into the manner of the creation of what the sophists call the world nor to dive into the cause of the motions of the celestial bodies on the contrary he exposed the folly of such as give themselves up to these contemplations and he asked whether it was after having acquired a perfect knowledge of human things that they undertook to search into the divine or if they thought themselves very wise in neglecting what concerned

them to employ themselves in things above them he was astonished likewise that they did not see it was impossible for men to comprehend anything of all these wonders seeing they who have the reputation of being most knowing in them are of quite different opinions and can agree no better than so many fools and mad men for as some of these are not afraid of the most dangerous and frightful accidents while others are in dread of what is not to be feared so too among those philosophers some are of opinion that there is no action but

what may be done in public nor word that may not freely be spoken before the whole world while others on the contrary believe that we ought to avoid the conversation of men and keep in a perpetual solitude some have despised the temples and the altars and have taught not to honor the gods while others have been so superstitious as to worship wood stones and irrational creatures and as to the knowledge of natural things some have confessed but one only being others have admitted an infinite number some have believed that all things are in a perpetual

motion others that nothing moves some have held the world to be full of continual generations and corruptions others maintain that nothing is engendered or destroyed he said besides that he should be glad to know of those persons whether they were in hopes one day to put in practice what they learned as men who know an art may practice it when they please either for their own advantage or for the service of their friends or whether they did imagine that after they found out the causes of all things that happen they should be able to cause

winds and rains and to dispose the times and seasons as they had occasion for them or whether they contented themselves with the bare knowledge without expecting any further advantage this was what he said of those who delight in such studies as for his part he meditated chiefly on what is useful and proper for man and took delight to argue of piety and impiety of honesty and dishonesty of justice and injustice of wisdom and folly of courage and cowardice of the state and of the qualifications of a minister of state of the government and of those

who are fit to govern in short he enlarged on the like subjects which it becomes men of condition to know and of which none but slaves should be ignorant it is not strange perhaps that the judges of socrates mistook his opinion in things concerning which he did not explain himself but i am surprised that they did not reflect on what he had said and done in the face of the whole world for when he was one of the senate and had taken the usual oath exactly to observe the laws being in his turn vested with

the dignity of epistate he bravely withstood the populace who against all manner of reason demanded that the nine captains two of whom were racinities and thracillus should be put to death he would never give consent to this injustice and was not daunted at the rage of the people nor at the menaces of the men in power choosing rather not to violate the oath he had taken than to yield to the violence of the multitude and shelter himself from the vengeance of those who threatened him to this purpose he said that the gods watch over men

more attentively than the vulgar imagine for they believe there are some things which the gods observe and others which they pass by unregarded but he held that the gods observe all our actions and all our words that they penetrate even into our most secret thoughts that they are present at all our deliberations and that they inspire us in all our affairs it is astonishing therefore to consider how the athenians could suffer themselves to be persuaded that socrates entertained any unworthy thoughts of the deity he who never let slip one single word against his respect due

to the gods nor was ever guilty of any action that savored in the least of impiety but who on the contrary has done and said things that could not proceed but from a mind truly pious and that are sufficient to gain a man an eternal reputation of piety and virtue end of section 1 recording by b tewton section two of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by adelfman book 1 chapter 2 socrates

not a debaucher of youth what surprises me yet more is that some would believe that socrates was a debaucher of young men socrates the most sober and most chaste of all men who cheerfully supported both cold and heat whom no inconvenience no hardships no laborers could startle and who had learned to wish for so little that though he'd scarce anything he had always enough then how could he teach impudity justice gluttony impurity and luxury and so far was he from doing so that he reclaimed many persons from those vices inspiring them with the love of

virtue and putting them in hopes of coming to preferment in the world provided they would take a little care of themselves yet he never promised any man to teach him to be virtuous but as he made a public profession of virtue he created in the minds of those who frequented him the hopes of becoming virtuous by his example he neglected not his own body and praised not those that neglected theirs in like manner he blamed the custom of some who eat too much and afterwards use violent exercises but he approved of eating till nature be

satisfied and of a moderate exercise after it believing that method to be an advantage to health and proper to unbend and divert the mind in his clothes he was neither nice nor costly and what i say of his clothes ought likewise to be understood of his whole way of living never any of his friends became covetous in his conversation and he reclaimed them from that sordid disposition as well as from all others for he would accept no gratuity from any who desired to confer with him and said that was the way to discover a noble

and generous heart and that they who take reward betrays a meanness of soul and sell their persons because they impose on themselves a necessity of instructing those from whom they receive salary he wondered likewise why man who promises to teach such virtue should ask money as if he believed not the greatest of all gain to consist in the acquisition of a good friend or as if he feared that he who by his means should become virtuous and be obliged to him for so great a benefit would not be sufficiently grateful for it quite different from

socrates who never boasted of any such thing and who was most certain that all who heard him and received his maxims would love him forever be capable of loving others also after this whosoever says that such a man debauched the youth must at the same time say that the study of virtue is debauchery but the accuser says that socrates taught to despise the constitution that was established in the republic because he affirmed to be a folly to elect magistrates by lots since if anyone had occasion for a pilot a musician or an architect he would

not trust to chance for any such person though the faults that can be committed by men in such capacities are far from being of so great importance as those that are committed in the government of the republic he says therefore that such arguments insensibly accustom the youth to despise the laws and render them more audacious and more violent but in my opinion such as study the art of prudence and who believe they shall be able to render themselves capable of giving good advice and counsel to their fellow citizens seldom become men of violent tempers because

they know that violence is hateful and full of danger while on the contrary to win by persuasion is full of love and safety for they whom we have compelled brewed a secret hatred against us believing we've done them wrong but those whom we have taken the trouble to persuade continue our friends believing we have done them a kindness it is not therefore they who apply themselves to the study of prudence that become violent but those brutish intractable tempers who have much power in their hands and put little judgment to management he father said that when

a man desires to carry anything by force he must have many friends to assist him as on the contrary he that can persuade has need of none but himself and is not subject to shed blood for who would rather choose to kill a man than to make use of his services after having gained his friendship and goodwill by mildness the accuser adds and proof of the ill tendency of the doctrine of socrates the criticism al-shabadees who were two of his most intimate friends were very bad men and did much mischief to their country for criteus

was the most insatiable and cruel of all the thirty tyrants and al-shabadi's the most desolute the most insolent and the most audacious citizen that ever the republic had as for me i pretend not to justify them and will only relate for what reasons they frequented socrates they were men of an unbound ambition and who resolved whatever it cost to govern the state and make themselves be talked of they had heard that socrates lived very content upon little or nothing that he entirely commanded his passions and that his reasonings were so persuasive that he drew all

men to which side he pleased reflecting on this and being of the temper we mentioned can it be thought that they desired the acquaintance of socrates because they were in love with his way of life and with his temperance or because they believe that by conversing with him they should render themselves capable of reasoning a right and of well managing the public affairs for my part i believe that if the gods had proposed to them to live always like him or to die immediately they would rather have chosen sudden death and it is easy to

judge this from their actions for as soon as they thought themselves more capable than their companions they forsook socrates whom they had frequented only for the purpose i mentioned and threw themselves wholly into business it may perhaps be objected that he ought not to have discoursed to his friends of things relating to the government of the state till after he had taught them to live virtuously i have nothing to say to this but i observe that all who profess teachings do generally two things they work in presence of their scholars to show them how they

ought to do and they instruct them likewise by word of mouth now in either of these two ways no man ever taught to live well like socrates for in his whole life he was an example of undated property and in his discourses he spoke of virtue and all the duties of man that made him admired of all his hearers and i know too very well the criticism al-shabadees lived very virtuously as long as they frequented him not that they were afraid of him but because they thought it most conducive to their designs to live so

at the time many who pretend to philosophy will hear object that a virtuous person is always virtuous and that when a man has once come to be good and temperate he will never afterwards become wicked nor desolute because habitudes that can be acquired when once they are so can never more be effaced from the mind but i am not of this opinion for as they who use no bodily exercises are awkward and unwieldy in their actions of the body so they who exercise not their minds are incapable of the noble actions of the mind and

of not courage enough to undertake anything worthy of praise nor command enough over themselves to abstain from things that are forbid for this reason parents though they be well enough assured of the good natural disposition of their children fail not to forbid them the conversation of the vicious for it is the ruin of worthy dispositions whereas the conversation of good men is a continual meditation of virtue thus a poet says by those whom we frequent were ever led example is a law by all obeyed thus with the good we are to good inclined but vicious

company corrupts the mind and another in the like manner virtue and vice and the same men are found and now they gain and now they lose their ground and in my opinion they are in the right for what i consider that they who have learned verses by heart forget them unless they repeat them often so i believe that they who neglect the reasoning of philosophers insensibly lose the remembrance of them and when they have let these excellent notions slip out of their minds they're at the same time lose the idea of the things that supported

in the soul the love of temperance and having forgot these things what wonder is it if at length they forget temperance likewise i observe besides that men who abandon themselves to the debauches of wine or women find it more difficult to apply themselves to things that are profitable and to abstain from what is hurtful for many who live frugally before they fall in love become prodigal when that passion gets the mastery over them in so much that after having wasted their estates they are reduced to gain their bread by methods they would have been ashamed

of before what hinders them but that a man who is once temperate should be so no longer and that he who has led a good life at one time should not do so at another i should think therefore that the being of all virtues and chiefly of temperance depends on the practice of them for lust that dwells in the same body with the soul entices it continually to despise this virtue and to find out the shortest way to gratify the senses only thus will al-shabadi's incritius converse with socrates they were able with so great in

assistance to tame their inclinations but after they had left him kritius being retired into thessaly ruined himself entirely in the company of some libertines and alger beatties seeing himself courted by several women of quality because of his beauty and suffering himself to be corrupted by soothing flatterers who made their court to him in consideration of the credit he had in the city and with his allies in a word finding himself respected by all the athenians and that no man disputed the first rank with him began to neglect himself and acted like a great wrestler who

takes not the trouble to exercise himself when he no longer finds an adversary who dares to contend with him if we would examine therefore all that has happened to them if we consider how much the greatness of their birth their interest in their riches had puffed up in their minds if we reflect on the ill company they fell into and the many opportunities they had of debauching themselves can we be surprised that after they had been so long absent from socrates they arrived at length to that height of insolence to which they have been seen

to arise if they had been guilty of crimes the accuser would load socrates with them and not allow him to be worthy of praise for having kept them within the bounds of their duty during their youth when in all appearance they would have been the most disorderly and least governable this however is not the way we judge of other things for whoever pretended that a musician a player on the loot or any other person that teaches after he had made a good scholar ought to be blamed for his growing more ignorant onto the care of

another master if a young man gets an acquaintance that brings him into debauchery ought his father to lay the blame on the first friends of his son among who he always lived virtuously is it not true on the contrary that the more he finds that his last friendship proves destructive to him the more reason he will have to praise his former acquaintance and are the fathers themselves who are daily with their children guilty of their faults if they give them no ill example thus they ought to have judged of socrates if he led an ill

life it was reasonable to esteem him vicious but if it could was it just to accuse him of crimes of which he was innocent and yet he might have given his adversaries ground to accuse him and he but approved or seemed to approve those vices and others from which he kept himself free but socrates abhorred vice not only in himself but in everyone besides to prove which i need only relate his conduct towards criteus a man extremely addicted to debauchery socrates perceiving that this man had an unnatural passion for euthodemus and that the violence of

it would precipitate him so far a length is to make him transgress the bounds of nature shocked at his behavior he exerted his utmost strength of reason and argument to dissuade him from so wild a desire and while the impetuous of criteus's passion seemed to scorn all check or control and the modest rebuke of socrates had been disregarded the philosopher out of an ardent zeal for virtue broke out in such language as it once declared his own strong inward sense of decency and order and the monstrous shamefulness of criticism's passion which severe but just reprimand

of socrates it is thought was the foundation of that grudge which he never after bore him for during the tyranny of the thirty of which kritius was one when together with cherokees he had the care of the civil government of the city he failed not to remember this affront and in revenge of it made a lot bid teaching the art of reasoning in athens and having nothing to reproach socrates with in particular he labored to rend him odious by dispersing him with the usual columnies that are thrown on all philosophers for i have never heard

socrates say he taught this art nor seen any man who ever heard him say so but criteus had to take an offense and such sufficient proofs of it for after the third he had caused to be put to death a great number of citizens and even of the most eminent and let loose the reins to all sorts of violence and repeat socrates said in a certain place that he wondered very much that a man who keeps a herd of cattle by his ill conduct loses every day some of them and suffers the others to fall

away would not own himself to be a very ill keeper of his herd that he should wonder yet more if a minister of state who lessens every day as a number of its citizens and makes the others more desolute was not ashamed of his ministry and would not own himself to be an ill magistrate this was reported to cortisone cherokees for forthwith sent to socrates showing him the law they had made forbid him to discourse with the young men upon which socrates asked them whether they would permit him to propose question that he might be

informed of what he did not understand in his prohibition his request being granted he spoke in this manner i'm most ready to obey your laws but that i may not transgress through ignorance i desire to know of you whether you condemn the art of reasoning because you believe it consists in saying things well or in saying them ill if for the former reason we must then from henceforward abstain from speaking as we ought and if for the latter it is plain that we ought to endeavor to speak well these words saracles flew into a passion

and said to him since you pretend to be ignorant of things that are so easily known we forbid you to speak to the younger man in any manner whatever it is enough answered socrates but that i may not be in a perpetual uncertainty prey prescribed to me to what age men are young till they are capable of being members of the senate said cherokees in a word speak to no man under 30 years of age how says socrates if i would buy anything of a tradesman who is not 30 years old am i forbid to

ask him the price of it i mean not so answered jericho's but i'm not surprised that you asked me this question for it is your custom to ask many things that you know very well socrates added and if a young man asked me in the street where sheracles lodges or whether i know where kritius is must i make him no answer i mean not so neither answered cher please here criteus interrupted their discourse said for the future socrates you must have nothing to do with the city tradesmen the shoemakers masons smiths and other mechanics whom

you so often lead as examples of life and who i apprehend are quite jaded with your discourses i must then likewise replied socrates omit the consequence i draw from those discourses and have no more to do with justice payety and the other duties of a good man yes yes said cherokee and i advise you to meddle no more with those that tend herds of oxen otherwise take care you lose not your own and these last words made it appear that criteus and jerichoese had to take an offense at the discourse which socrates had held against

their government when he compared them to a man that suffers his herd to fall to ruin thus we see how kritius frequented socrates and what opinion they had of each other i add moreover that we cannot learn anything of a man whom we do not like therefore if criticism al-shabadees made no great improvement with socrates it proceeded from this that they never liked him for at the very time that they had conversed with him they always rather courted the conversation of those who were employed in the public affairs because they had no design but to

govern the following conference of al-shabadi's in particular which he had with pericles his governor who was the chief man of the city whilst he was yet under 20 years of age concerning the nature of the laws will confirm what i have now advanced pray says al-shabadi's explain to me what the law is for as i hear men praise to observe the laws i imagine that this praise could not be given to those who know not what the law is it is easy to satisfy you answered pericles the law is only what the people in the

general assembly ordain declaring what ought to be done and what ought not to be done and tell me added also babies they ordain to do what is good or what is ill most certainly what is good al-shabadi's pursued and how would you call what a small number of citizens should ordain states where the people is not the master but all is ordered by the advice of a few persons who possess the sovereignty i would call whatever they ordain allah for laws or nothing else but the ordinances of sovereigns if a tyrant then ordained anything would

that be law yes it will said pericles but what then is violence and injustice continued al-shabadi's is it not when the strongest makes himself be obeyed by the weakest not by consent but by force only in my opinion it is it follows then says al-shabadi's that ordinance ordinances made by prince without the consent of the citizens would be absolutely unjust i believe so said pericles and cannot allow that the ordinances of a prince when they are made without the consent of the people should bear the name of lars and what the chief citizens ordained without

procuring the consent of the great numbers that likewise of violence there is no question of it and said pericles and in general every ordinance made without the consent of those who are to obey it is a violence rather than a law and he's worth the populist decree without the concurrence of the chiefs to be counted of violence likewise not a law no doubt it is said pericles but when i was of your age i could resolve all these difficulties because i made it my business to inquire into them as you do now wood to god

cried al-shabadies i had been so happy to have conversed with you then when you had understood these matters better to this purpose was their dialogue criticism alger babies however continued not long with socrates after they believed they had improved themselves and gained some advantages over the other citizens for besides that they thought not his conversation very agreeable they were displeased that he took upon him to reprimand them for their faults and thus they threw themselves immediately into the public affairs having never had any other design but that usual companions of socrates were cryto sheriff on

cherokees simeous sebes and fashdon and some others none of whom frequented him that they might learn to speak eloquently either in the assemblies the people are in the courts of justice before the judges but that they might become better men and know how to behave themselves towards their domestics their relations their friends and their fellow citizens these persons led very innocent lives and whether we consider them in their youth or examine their behavior in a more advanced age we shall find that they never were guilty of any bad action nay that they never gave the

least ground to suspect them of being so but the accuser says that socrates encouraged children to despise their parents making them believe that he was more capable to instruct them than they and telling them that as the laws permit a man to chain his own father if he can convict him of lunacy so in like manner it is but just that a man of excellent sense should throw another into chains who has not so much understanding not deny that socrates may have said something like this but he meant it not in the sense in which

the accuser would have it taken and he fully discovered what his meaning by those words was when he said that he who should pretend to chain others because of their ignorance ought for the same reason to submit to be chained himself by men who know more than he hence it is that he argued so often that the difference between folly and ignorance and then he plainly said that fools and mad men ought to be chained a deed as well for their own interest as for that of their friends but that they who are ignorant of

things they should know ought only to be instructed by those that understand them the accuser goes on socrates do not only teach men to despise their parents but their other relations too because he said that if a man be sick or have a suit in law and is not his relations but the physicians or the advocates who were of use to him he further alleged socrates speaking of friends said it was to no purpose to bear goodwill to any man if it be not in our power to serve him and that the only friends whom

we ought to value are they who know what is good for us and can teach it to us thus says the accuser socrates by persuading the youth that he was the wisest of all men and the most capable to set others in the right road to wisdom made them believe that all the rest of mankind were nothing in comparison with him remember indeed to have heard him sometimes talk after this manner of parents relations and friends and he observed besides if i mistake not that when the soul in which the understanding resides is gone out

of the body we soon bury the corpse and even though it be that of our nearest relation we endeavor to put it out of our sight as soon as decently we can farther though every man loves his own body to a great degree scruple not nevertheless to take from it all that is superfluous for this reason we cut our hair and our nails we take off our corns and our warts we put ourselves into the surgeon's hands and endure caustics and incisions and after they have made us suffer a great deal of pain we think

ourselves obliged to give them a reward thus too we spit because this pill is of no use to our mouth but on the contrast is troublesome but socrates meant not by these or the like sayings to conclude that a man ought to bury his father alive or that we ought to cut off our legs and arms but he meant only to teach us what is useless is contemptible and to exhort every man to improve and render himself useful to others to the end that if we desire to be esteemed by our father our brother or

any other relation we should not rely so much on our parentage and consanguinity as not to endeavor to render ourselves always useful to those who esteem we desire to obtain the accuser says further against socrates that he was so malicious as to choose out of the famous poets the passages that contained the worst instructions and that he made use of them in a sly manner to inculcate the vices of injustice and violence as this verse of hissyard blame no employment but blame idleness and he pretends that socrates alleged this passage to prove that the poet

meant to say that we ought not to count our employment unjust or dishonorable if we can make an advantage of it this however was far from the thoughts of socrates but as he had always taught that employment and business are useful and honorable to men and that idleness isn't evil he concluded that they who busy themselves about anything that is good are indeed employed but that's gamesters and debauched persons and all who have no occupations such as are hurtful and wicked are idle now in this sense is it not true to say blame no employment

but blame idleness the accuser likewise says that socrates often repeated out of homer a speech of ulysses and from thence he concludes that socrates taught that the poet advised to beat the poor and abuse the common people but it is plain socrates could never have drawn such a wild and unnatural inference from those verses of the poet because he would have argued against himself since he was as poor as anyone besides what he meant therefore was only this that such as are neither men of counsel nor execution who are neither fit to advise in the

city nor to serve in the army and are nevertheless proud and insolent ought to be brought to reason even though they be possessed of great riches and this was the true meaning of socrates for he loved the men of low condition and expressed to great civility for all sorts of persons in so much that whenever he was consulted either by the athenians or by foreigners he would never take anything of any man for the instructions he gave them but imparted his wisdom freely and without reward to all the world while they who became rich by

his liberality did not afterwards behave themselves to generously but sold very dear to others what had cost them nothing and not being so obliged to temper as he will not impart their knowledge to any who had it not in their power to reward them in short socrates had rendered the city of athens famous throughout the whole earth and as lycus was said to be the honor of sparta because he treated at his own expense all the foreigners who came to the feasts of the gymnapedes so it may with much great reason be said of socrates

that he was the glory of athens he who all his life made continual distribution of his goodness and virtues and two keeping open for all the world the treasures of an inestimable wealth never sent any man out to his company but more virtuous and more improved in the principles of honor than formerly he was therefore in my opinion if he had been treated according to his merit they should have decreed him public honors rather than have condemned him to an infamous death for against whom have the laws ordained the punishment of death is it not

for thieves for robbers for men guilty of sacrilege for those who sell persons that are free but where in all the world can we find a man more innocent for all of those crimes than socrates and he said of him that he ever held correspondence with the enemy has he ever fermented any sedition that he ever was the cause of rebellion or any other the like mischievous can any man lay to his charge that he ever detained his estate him or it's the least injury was he ever so much as suspected of any of these

things how then is it possible he should be guilty of the crimes of which he was accused since instead of not believing in the gods as the accuser says it is manifest he was a sincere adorer of them instead of corrupting the youth as he further alleges against him he made it his chief care to deliver his friends from the power of every guilty passion and to inspire them with an ardent love for virtue the glory the ornament and felicity of families as well as of states and this being fact in fact it is who

can deny it is it not certain that the republic was extremely obliged to him and that she ought section 3 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit leaprovox.org the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 1 chapter 3 how socrates behaved throughout the whole of his life having therefore observed myself that all who frequented him improved themselves very much in his conversation because he instructed them no less by his example

than by his discourses i am resolved to set down in this work all that i can recollect both of his actions and words first then asked what relates to the service of the gods he's strictly conformed to the advice of the oracle who never gives any other answer to those who inquire of him in what manner they ought to sacrifice to the gods or what honors they are to render to the dead then that everyone should observe the customs of his own country thus in all the acts of religious worship socrates took particular care to

do nothing contrary to the custom of the republic and advised his friends to make that the rule of their devotion to the gods alleging that it be an argument of superstition and vanity to descent from the established worship when he prayed to the gods he besought them only to give him what is good because they know better than we do what things are truly good for us and he said that men who pray for silver or for gold or for the sovereign authority made as foolish requests as if they prayed that they might play or

fight or desire any other thing whose event is uncertain and that might be likely to turn to their disadvantage when he offered sacrifices he did not believe that his poverty rendered them despicable in the presence of the gods and while he offered according to his ability he thought he gave as much as the rich who load the altars with costly gifts for he held that it would be an injustice in the gods to take more delight in costly sacrifices than in poorer ones because it would then follow that the offerings of the wicked would for

the most part be more acceptable to them than the gifts of the good and that if this were so we ought not to desire to live one moment longer he thought therefore that nothing was so acceptable to the deity as the homage that is paid him by souls truly pious and innocent to this purpose he often repeated these verses offered to heaven according to thy power the indulgent gracious gods required no more and not only this but in all the other occasions of life he thought the best advice he could give his friends was to

do all things according to their ability when he believed that the gods had admonished him to do anything it was as impossible to make him a contrary resolution as it would have been to have prevailed with him in a journey to change a guide that was clear-sighted for one that knew not the way and was blind likewise for this reason he pitied their folly who to avoid the derision of men live not according to the admonitions and commands of the gods and he beheld with contempt all the subtleties of human prudence when he compared them

with divine inspirations his way of living was such that whoever follows it may be assured with the help of the gods that he shall acquire a robust constitution and a health not to be easily impaired and this too without any great expense for he was content with so little that i believed there was not in all the world a man who could work at all but might have earned enough to have maintained him he generally ate as long as he found pleasure in eating and when he sat down to table he desired no other sauce

but a sound appetite all sorts of drinks were like pleasing to him because he never drank but when he was thirsty and if sometimes he was invited to a feast he easily avoided eating and drinking to excess which many find very difficult to do on those occasions but he advised those who had no government of themselves never to taste of things that tempt a man to eat when he is no longer hungry and that excite him to drink when his thirst is already quenched because it is this that spoils the stomach causes the headache and

puts the soul into disorder and he said between just and earnest that he believed it was with such meats as lois that cersei's changed men into swine and that ulysses avoided that transformation by the council of mercury and because he had temperance enough to abstain from tasting them as to love his advice was to avoid carefully the company of beautiful persons saying it was very difficult to be near them and escape being taken in the snare and having been told that krytabulus had given a kiss to the son of alcibiades who was a very handsome

youth he held this discourse to xenophon in the presence of krytabolus himself tell me xenophon what opinion have you hither had of chrytobulus have you placed him in the rank of the temperate and judicious or with the debauched and imprudent i have always looked upon him answered xenophon to be a very virtuous and prudent man change your opinion replied socrates and believe him more rash than if he threw himself on the points of naked swords or left into the fire and what have you seen him do said xenophobe that gives you reason to speak thus

of him why he had the rationist answered socrates to kiss the son of alcibiades who is so beautiful and charming and this is all said xenothon for my part i think i could also willingly expose myself to the same danger that he did rich that you are replied socrates do you consider what happens to you after you have kissed a beautiful face do you not lose your liberty do not become a slave do you not engage yourself in a vast expense to procure a sinful pleasure do you not find yourself in an incapacity of doing

what is good and that you subject yourself to the necessity of employing your whole time and person in the pursuit of what you would despise if your reason were not corrupted good god replied xenophore this is ascribing a wonderful power to a kiss forsooth and you are surprised at it answered socrates are there not some small animals whose bite is so venomous that it causes insufferable pain and even the loss of the senses i know it very well said xenophon but these animals leave a poison behind them when they sting and do you think you

fool added socrates that kisses of love are not venomous because you perceive not the poison know that a beautiful person is a more dangerous animal than scorpions because these cannot wound unless they touch us but beauty strikes at a distance from what place so ever we can but behold her she darts her venom upon us and overthrows our judgment and perhaps for this reason the loves are represented with bows and arrows because a beautiful face wounds us from afar i advise you therefore xenophon when you chance to see a beauty to fly from it without

looking behind you and for you krytobulus i think it convenient that you should enjoy yourself a year's absence which will not be too long a time to heal you from your wound as for such as have not the strength enough to resist the power of love he thought that they ought to consider and use it as an action to which the soul would never consent were it not for the necessity of the body and which though it be necessary are nevertheless to give us no inquitured as for himself his countenance was well known to all

men and it was more easy for him to avoid hoarding the most celebrated beauties than it is for others to get away from disagreeable objects thus we see what was his way of life in eating drinking and in the affair of love he believed however that he tasted of those pleasures no less than they who give themselves much trouble to enjoy them but that he had not liked them so frequent occasions for sorrow and repentance end of section three section 4 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox

recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org the memorable thoughts of socrates by zaina farn translated by edward bish book 1 chapter 4 socrates proveth the existence of a deity if there be any who believe what some have written by conjecture that socrates was indeed excellent in exciting men to virtue but that he did not push them forward to make any great progress in it let such reflect a little on what he said not only when he endeavored to refute those that boasted they knew all things but likewise

in his familiar conversations and let them judge afterwards if he was incapable to advance his friends in the paths of virtue i will in the first place relate a conference which he had with aristodemus surnamed the little touching the deity for he had heard that he never sacrificed to the gods that he never addressed himself to them in prayer that he never consulted the oracles and even laughed at those that practiced these things he took him to talk in this manner tell me aristodemus are there any persons whom you value on account of their merit

he answered yes certainly tell me their names added socrates aristodemus replied for epic poetry i admire homer as the most excellent for ditharambics melanipodes sophocles for tragedy polyclitus for statuary and zooxas for painting which artist said socrates do you think to be most worthy of your esteem and admiration they who make images without soul in motion or they who make animals that move of their own accord and are endowed with understanding no doubt the last replied aristodemus provided they make them not by chance but with judgment and prudence socrates went on as there are some

things which we cannot say why they were made and others which are apparently good and useful tell me my friend whether of the two you rather take to be the work of prudence than of hazard it is reasonable said aristodemus to believe that the things which are good and useful are the workmanship of reason and judgment do not you think then replied socrates that the first former of mankind designed their advantage when he gave them the several senses by which objects are apprehended eyes for things visible and ears for sounds of what advantage would agreeable

sense have been to us if nostrils suited to their reception had not been given and for the pleasures of the taste how could we ever have enjoyed these if the tongue had not been fitted to discern and relish them further does it not appear to you wisely provided that since the eye is of a delicate make it is guarded with the eyelid drawn back when the eye is used and covering it in sleep how well does the hair at the extremity of the eyelid keep out dust in the eyebrow by its prominency prevent the sweat

of the forehead from running into the eye to its hurt how wisely is the ear formed to receive all sorts of sounds and not to be filled with any to the exclusion of others are not the 14th of all animals fitted to cut off proper portions of food and their grinders to reduce it to a convenient smallness the mouth by which we take in the food we like is fitly placed just beneath the nose and eyes the judges of its goodness and what is offensive and disagreeable to our senses is for that reason placed at

a proper distance from them in short these things being deposed in such order and with so much care can you hesitate one moment to determine whether it be an effect of providence or of chance i doubt not of it in the least replied aristodemus and the more i fix my thoughts on the contemplation of these things the more i am persuaded that all this is the masterpiece of a great workman who bears an extreme love to men what say you continued socrates to this that he gives all animals a desire to engender and propagate their

kind that he inspires the mothers with tenderness and affection to bring up their young and that from the very hour of their birth he infuses into them this great love of life and this mighty aversion to death i say replied aristodemus that it is an effect of his great care for their preservation this is not all said socrates answer me yet farther perhaps you would rather interrogate me you are not i persuade myself ignorant that you are endowed with understanding do you then think that there is not elsewhere an intelligent being particularly if you consider

that your body is only a little earth taken from that great mass which you behold the moist that composes you is only a small drop of that immense heap of water that makes the sea in a word your body contains only a small portion of all the elements which are elsewhere in great quantity there is nothing then but your understanding alone which by a wonderful piece of good fortune must have come to you from i know not whence if there were none in another place and can it then be said that all this universe and

all these so vast and numerous bodies have been disposed in so much order without the help of an intelligent being and by mere chance i find it very difficult to understand it otherwise answered aristodemus because i see not the gods who you say make and govern all things as i see the artificers who do any piece of work among us nor do you see your soul neither answered socrates which governs your body but because you do not see it will you from thence infer you do nothing at all by its direction but that everything you

do is by mere chance aristodemus now wavering said i do not despise the deity but i conceive such an idea of his magnificence and self-sufficiency that i imagine him to have no need of me or my services you are quite wrong said socrates for by how much the gods who are so magnificent vote safe to regard you by so much you are bound to praise and adore them it is needless for me to tell you answered aristodemus that if i believed the gods interested themselves in human affairs i should not neglect to worship them how

replied socrates you do not believe the gods take care of men they who have not only given to man in common with other animals the senses of seeing hearing and taste but have also given him to walk upright a privilege which no other animal can boast of and which is of mighty use to him to look forward to remote objects to survey with facility those above him and to defend himself from any harm besides although the animals that walk have feet which serve them for no other use than to walk yet herein have the gods

distinguished men in that besides feet they have given him hands the instruments of a thousand grand and useful actions on which account he not only excels but is happier than all animals besides and further though all animals have tongues yet none of them can speak like man's his tongue only can form words by which he declares his thoughts and communicates them to others not to mention smaller instances of their care such as the concern they take of our pleasures in confining men to no certain season for the enjoying them as they have done other animals

but providence taketh care not only of our bodies but of our souls yet have pleased the great author of all not only to give man so many advantages for the body but which is the greatest gift of all and the strongest proof of his care he hath breathed into him an intelligent soul and that too the most excellent of all for which of the other animals has a soul that knows the being of the deity by whom so many great and marvelous works are done is there any species but man that serves and adores him

which of the animals can like him protect himself from hunger and thirst from heat and cold which like him can find remedies for diseases can make use of his strength and is as capable of learning that so perfectly retains the things he has seen he has heard he has known in a word it is manifest that man is a god in comparison with the other living species considering the advantages he naturally has over them both of body and soul for if man had a body like that of an ox the subtlety of his understanding would

avail him nothing because he would not be able to execute what he should project on the other hand if that animal had a body like ours yet being devoid of understanding he would be no better than the rest of the brute species thus the gods have at once united in your person the most excellent structure of body and the greatest perfection of soul and now can you still say after all that they take no care of you what would you have them do to convince you of the contrary i would have them answered aristodemus send

on purpose to let me know expressly all that i ought to do or not to do in like manner as you say they do give you notice what said socrates when they pronounce any article to all the athenians do you think they do not address themselves to you too when by prodigies they make known to the greeks the things that are to happen are they silent to you alone and are you the only person they neglect do you think that the gods would have instilled this notion into men that it is they who can make

them happy or miserable if it were not indeed in their power to do so and do you believe that the human race would have been thus long abused without ever discovering the cheat do you not know that the most ancient and wisest republics and people have been also the most pious and that man at the age when his judgment is ripest has then the greatest bent to the worship of the deity my dear aristodemus consider that your mind governs your body according to its pleasure in like manner we ought to believe that there is a

mind diffused throughout the whole universe that disposes all things according to its councils you must not imagine that your weak sight can reach the objects that are several leagues distant and that the eye of god cannot at one and the same time see all things you must not imagine that your mind can reflect on the affairs of athens of egypt and of sicily and that the providence of god cannot at one and the same moment consider all things as therefore you may make trial of the gratitude of a man by doing him a kindness and

as you may discover his prudence by consulting him in difficult affairs so if you would be convinced how great is the power and goodness of god apply yourself sincerely to piety and his worship then my dear aristodemus you shall soon be persuaded that the deity sees all hears all is present everywhere and at the same time regulates and superintends all the events of the universe by such discourses as these socrates taught his friends never to commit any injustice or dishonorable action not only in the presence of men but even in secret and when they are

alone since the divinity hath always an eye over us and none of our actions can be hid from him end of section four section five of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by eddie elfman the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bishi book 1 chapter 5 the praise of temperance and if temperance be a virtue in man as undoubtedly it is let us see whether any improvement can be made

but what he said it i will here to give you one of his discourses on the subject if we were engaged in a war said he and were to choose general what would we make choice of a man given to wine or women and who could not support fatigues and hardships could we believe that such a commander would be capable to defend us and to conquer our enemies or if we were lying on our deathbed and were to appoint a guardian and tutor to our children to take care to instruct our sons and the principles

of virtue to breed up our daughters in the paths of honor and be faithful in the management of their fortunes should we think a debauched person fit for that employment would we trust our flocks and our granaries in the hands of a drunkard would we rely upon him for the conduct of any enterprise and in short if the president were made us as such a slave should we not make it a difficulty to accept him if then we have so great an aversion for debauchery in the person of the meanest servant otto we not ourselves

to be very careful not to fall into the same fault besides a covetous man has the satisfaction of enriching himself and though he take away another's in state he increases his own but a debauched man is both troublesome to others and injurious to himself we may say of him that he is hurtful to all the world and yet so more hurtful to himself if to ruin not only his family but his body and soul likewise is to be hurtful who then can take delight in the company of him who has no other diversion than eating

and drinking and who is better pleased with the conversation of a prostitute than of his friends aren't we not then to practice temperance above all things seeing it is the foundation of all other virtues for without it what can we learn that is good what do that is worthy of praise is not the state of a man who is plunged into voluptuousness a wretched condition both for the body and the soul certainly in my opinion a free person ought to wish to have no such servants and servants addicted to such brutal regularities ought earnestly to

entreat heaven that they may fall into the hands of very indulgent masters because their ruin will be otherwise almost unavoidable this is what socrates would want to say upon this subject but if he appeared to be a lover of temperance in his discourses he was yet a more exact observer of it in his actions showing himself to be not only invincible to the pleasures of the senses but even deprived himself of the satisfaction of getting an estate for he held that a man who accepts money from others makes himself a servant to all their humors

and becomes their slave in a manner no less scandalous than other slaveries end of section 5 section 6 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by eddie elfman the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bishi book 1 chapter 6 the dispute of socrates with antiphon the sophist to this end it will not be a mystery late for the honor of socrates what passed between him and the sophist antiphon who

designed to seduce away his heroes and to that end came to him when they were with him and in their presence addressed himself to him in these words i imagined socrates that philosophers were happier than other men but in my opinion your wisdom renders you more miserable for you live at such a rate that no footman would live with a master that treated him in the same manner you eat and drink poorly you are clothed very meanly the same suit serves you in the summer and winter and you go barefoot for all this you take

no money although it is a pleasure to get it for after a man has acquired it he lives more gently and more at his ease if therefore as in all other sorts of arts apprentices endeavor to imitate their masters should these who frequent your conversation become like you it is certain that you will have taught them nothing but to make themselves miserable socrates answered him in the following manner you think antaphon i live so poorly that i believe you would rather die than live like me but what is it that you find so strange and

difficult in my way of living you blame me for not taking money is it because those who take money are obliged to do what they promise and that i who take none entertain myself only with whom i think fit you despise my eating and drinking is it because my diet is not so good nor so nourishing is yours or because it is that more scarce and dearer or lastly because your affair seems to do you better know that a man who likes what he eats needs no other ragu and that he who finds one sort

of drink pleasant wishes for no other as to your objection of my clothes you appear to me antiphon to judge quite a miss of the matter do you not know that we dress ourselves differently only because of the hot or cold weather and if we wear shoes it is because we would walk the easier but tell me did you ever observe that the cold hath hindered me from going abroad have you ever seen me choose the cool and fresh shades in hot weather and though i go barefoot do you not see that i go wherever

i will do you not know that there are some persons of a very tender constitution who by constant exercise surmount the weaknesses of their nature and at length endure fatigues better than they who are naturally more robust but have not taken pains to exercise and harden themselves like the others thus therefore do you not believe that i who have all my life accustomed to myself to bear patiently all manner of fatigues cannot now more easily submit to this than you who have never thought of the matter if i have no keen desire after dainties if

i sleep little if i abandon not myself to any infamous or more the reason is because i spend my time more delightfully in these things whose pleasure ends not in the moment of enjoyment and that make me hope besides to receive an everlasting reward besides you know very well that when a man sees that his affairs go ill he's not generally very gay not on the contrary they who think to succeed in their designs whether in agriculture traffic or any other undertaking are very contented in their minds now do you think that for anything whatsoever

that can precede a satisfaction equal to the inward consciousness of improving daily in virtue and acquiring the acquaintanceship and friendship of the best of men and if we were to serve our friends or our country or not a man who lives like me be more capable of it than one who should follow that course of life which you take to be so charming if it were necessary to carry arms which of the two would be the best soldier he who must always fare deliciously or he who would satisfy with what he finds if they were

to undergo siege who would hold out longest he who could not live without delicacies or he hood requires nothing but what may easily be had one would think antiphon that you believe happiness to consistent good eating and drinking and an inexpensive and splendid way of life my part i'm of the opinion that's to have need of nothing at all is divine perfection and that to have need but of little is to approach very near the deity and hence it follows that as there is nothing more excellent than the deity whatever approaches nears to it likewise

most near the supreme excellence another time antiphon addressed himself to socrates i confess you an honest well-meaning man socrates but it is certain you know little or nothing and one would imagine you own this to be true for you get nothing by your teaching and yet i persuade myself you would not part with your house or any of the furniture of it without some gratuity because you believe them of some small value nay you would not part with them for less than they are worth if therefore you thought your teaching worth anything you would be

paid for it according to its value in this indeed you show yourself honest because you will not out of averis cheat any man but at the same time you discover two that you know but little since all your knowledge is not worth the buying socrates answered him in this manner there is a great resemblance between beauty and the doctrine of philosophers what is praiseworthy is the one that is so in the other and both of them are subject to the same vice for if a woman sells her beauty for money we immediately call her a

prostitute but if she knows that a man of worth and condition has fallen in love with her and if she makes him her friend we say she is a prudent woman it is just the same with the doctrine of philosophers they that sell at her surface and like the public women but a philosopher observe a youth of excellent parts and teacheth him what he knows in order to obtain his friendship we save him that he acts the part of a good and virtuous citizen thus as such delight in fine horses others and dogs and others

and birds for my part all my delight is to be with my virtuous friends i teach them all the good i know and recommend them to all those who i believe capable to assist them in the way of perfection we all draw together out of the same fountain the precious treasures which the ancient sages have left us we run over their works and if we find anything excellent we take notice of it and select it in short we believe we have made a great improvement when we begin to love one another this was the answer

he made and when i heard him speak in this manner i thought him very happy and that he effectually stirred up his heroes to the love of virtue another time when antiphon asked him why he did not concern himself with the affairs of state seeing he thought himself capable to make others good politicians he returned this answer should i be more serviceable to the state if i took an employment whose function would be wholly bounded in my person and take up all of my time then i am by instructing everyone as i do and then

furnishing the republic with great number of citizens who are capable to serve her end of section 6. section 7 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by shibe the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward baiche book 2 chapter 1 a conference of socrates with aristipus concerning pleasure and temperance in the same manner likewise he encouraged his hearers by the following arguments to support hunger and thirst to resist the temptations

of love to fly from laziness and annual themselves to all manner of fatigues for being told that one of them lived too luxuriously he asked him this question if you were entrusted arastipus with the education of two young men one to be a prince and the other a private man how would you educate them let us begin with their nourishment as being the foundation of all it is true said aristipus that nourishment is the foundation of our life for a man must soon die if he be not nourished you would accustom both of them said

socrates to eat and drink at a certain hour most likely i should but which of the two said socrates would you teach to leave eating before he was satisfied to go about some earnest business him without doubt answered aristipus whom i intended to render capable to govern to the end that under him the affairs of the republic might not suffer by delay which of the two continued socrates would you teach to abstain from drinking when he was thirsty to sleep but little to go late to bed to rise early to watch whole nights to live

chastely to get the better of his favorite inclinations and not to avoid fatigues but expose himself freely to them the same still replied aristipus and if there be any art that teaches to overcome our enemies to which of the two is it rather reasonable to teach it to him too said aristiphos for without that art all the rest would avail him nothing i believe said socrates that a man who has been educated in this manner would not suffer himself to be so easily surprised by his enemies as the most part of animals do for some

perish by their gluttony as those whom we allure with a bait or catch by offering them to drink and who fall into the snares notwithstanding the fears and distrust others perish through their lasciviousness as quails and partridges who suffer themselves to be decoyed by the counterfeit voice of their females and blindly following the amorous warmth that transports them fall miserably into the nets you say true said aristipus well then pursued socrates is it not scandalous for a man to be taken in the same snares with irrational animals and does not this happen to adulterers who

skulk and hide themselves in the chambers and closets of married women though they know they run a very great risk and that the laws are very strict and rigorous against those crimes they know themselves to be watched and that if they are taken they shall not be let go with impunity in a word they see punishment and infamy hanging over the heads of criminals like themselves besides they are not ignorant that there are a thousand honorable diversions to deliver them from those infamous passions and yet they run hand over head into the midst of these

dangers and what is this but to be wretched and desperate to the highest degree i think it's so said aristipus what say you to this continued socrates that the most necessary and important affairs of life as those of war and husbandry are with others of little less consequence performed in the fields and in the open air and that the greatest part of mankind accustomed themselves so little to endure the inclemency of the seasons to suffer heat and cold is not this a great neglect and do you not think that a man who is to command

others ought to annure himself to all these hardships i think he ought answered aristepis therefore replied socrates if they who are patient and laborious as we have said are worthy to command may we not say that they who can do nothing of all this ought never pretend to any office aristipus agreed to it and socrates went on since then you know the rank which either of these two sorts of men ought to hold amongst which would you have us place you me said aristipus why truly not amongst those that govern for this is an office

i would never choose let those rule who have a mind for it for my part i envy not their condition for when i reflect that we find it hard enough to supply our own wants i do not approve of loading ourselves besides with the necessities of a whole people and that being often compelled to go without many things that we desire we should engage ourselves in an employment that would render us liable to blame if we did not take care to supply others with everything they want i think there is folly in all this for

republics make use of their magistrates as i do of my slaves who shall get me my meat and drink and all other necessities as i command and not presume to touch any of it themselves so too the people will have those who govern the state take care to provide them with plenty of all things and will not suffer them to do anything for their own advantage i think therefore that all who are pleased with a hurry of affairs and in creating business for others are most fit to govern provided they have been educated and instructed

in the manner we mentioned but for my part i desire to lead a more quiet and easy life let us said socrates consider whether they who govern lead more happy lives than their subjects among the nations that are known to us in asia the syrians the phrygians and the lydians are under the empire of the persians in europe the mauitians are subject to the scythians in africa the carthaginians reign over the rest of the africans which now in your opinion are the most happy let us look into greece where you are at present whose condition

think you is most to be desired that of the nations who rule or of the people who are under the dominion of others i can never said aristipus consent to be a slave but there is a way between both that leads neither to empire nor subjection and this is the road of liberty in which i endeavor to walk because it is the shortest to arrive at true quiet and repose if you had said replied socrates that this way which leads neither to empire nor subjection is a way that leads far from all human society you

would perhaps have said something for how can we live among men and neither command nor obey do you not observe that the mighty oppress the weak and use them as their slaves after they have made them grown under the weight of oppression and given them just cause to complain of their cruel usage in a thousand instances both general and particular and if they find any who will not submit to the yoke they ravage their countries spoil their corn cut down their trees and attack them in short in such a manner that they are compelled to

yield themselves up to slavery rather than undergo so unequal a war among private men themselves do not the stronger and more bold trample on the weaker to the end therefore that this may not happen to me said aristipus i confined myself not to any republic but in sometimes here sometimes there and think it best to be a stranger wherever i am this invention of yours replied socrates is very extraordinary travelers i believe are not now so much infested on the roads by robbers as formally deterred i suppose by the fate of sinus skyron pro christies

and the rest of that gang what then they who are settled in their own country and are concerned in the administration of the public affairs they have the laws in their favors have their relations and friends to assist them have fortified towns and arms for their defense over and above they have alliances with their neighbors and yet all these favorable circumstances cannot entirely shelter them from the attempts and surprises of wicked men but can you who have none of these advantages who are for the most part traveling on the roads often dangerous to most men

who never enter a town where you have not less credit than the meanest inhabitant and are obscure as the wretches who prey on the properties of others in these circumstances can you i say expect to be safe merely because you are a stranger or perhaps have got passports from the states that promise you all manner of safety coming or going or should it be your hard fortune to be made a slave you would make such a bad one that a master would be never the better for you for who would suffer in his family a

man who would not work and yet expect to live well but let us see how masters use such servants when they are too lascivious they compel them to fast till they have brought them so low that they have no great stomach to make love if they are thieves they prevent them from stealing by carefully locking up whatever they could take they chain them for fear they should run away if they are dull and lazy then stripes and scourges are the rewards we give them if you yourself my friend had a worthless slave would you not

take the same measures with him i would treat such a fellow answered aristipus with all manner of severity till i had brought him to serve me better but socrates let us resume our former discourse in what do they who are educated in the art of government which you seem to think a great happiness differ from those who suffer through necessity for you say they must accustom themselves to hunger and thirst to endure cold and heat to sleep little and that they must voluntarily expose themselves to a thousand other fatigues and hardships now i cannot conceive

what difference there is between being whipped willingly and by force and tormenting one's body either one way or the other except that it is a folly in a man to be willing to suffer pain how said socrates you know not the difference between things voluntary and constrained that he who suffers hunger because he is pleased to do so may likewise eat when he has a mind and he who has suffers thirst because he is willing may also drink when he pleases but it is not in the power of him who suffers either of them through

constraint and necessity to relieve himself by eating and drinking the moment he desires it besides he that voluntarily embraceth any laborious exercise finds much comfort and content in the hope that animates him thus the fatigues of hunting discourage not the hunters because they hope to take the game they pursue and yet what they take though they think it a reward for all their toil is certainly of very little value ought not they then who labor to gain the friendship of good men or to overcome their enemies or to render themselves capable of governing their families

and of serving their country ought not these i say joyfully to undertake the trouble and to rest content conscious of the inward approbation of their own minds and the regard and the esteem of the virtuous and to convince you that it is good to impose labors on ourselves it is a maxim amongst those who instruct youth that the exercises which are easily performed at the first attempt and which we immediately take to lighten are not capable to form the body to that vigor and strength that is requisite in great undertakings nor of imprinting in the

soul any considerable knowledge but that those which require patience application labor and aciduity prepare the way to illustrious actions and great achievements this is the opinion of good judges and of hesiod in particular who says somewhere to vice in crowded ranks the course we steer the road is smooth and her abode is near but virtue's heights are reached with sweat and pain for thus did the immortal powers ordain a long and rough ascent leads to her gate nor till the summits gained doth toll of eight and to the same purpose epicarmus the gods confer their

blessing at the price of labor who remarks in another place thou son of sloth avoid the charms of ease lest pain succeed of the same opinion is protocas in the book he has written of the life of hercules where virtue and pleasure make their court to that hero under their appearance of two beautiful women his words as near i can remember are as follows when hercules says the moralist had arrived at that part of his youth in which young men commonly choose for themselves and show by the result of their choice whether they will through

the succeeding stages of their lives enter into and walk in the path of virtue or that of vice he went out into a solitary place fit for contemplation there to consider with himself which of those two paths he should pursue as he was sitting there in suspense he saw two women of a larger stature than ordinary approaching towards him one of them had a genteel and amiable aspect her beauty was natural and easy her person in shape clean and handsome her eyes cast towards the ground with an agreeable reserve her motion and behavior full of

modesty and her raiment white as snow the other wanted all the native beauty and proportion of the former her person was swelled by luxury and ease to a size quite disproportioned and uncommonly she had painted her complexion that it might seem fairer and more ruddy than it really was and endeavored to appear more graceful than ordinary in her mean by a mixture of affectation in all her gestures her eyes were full of confidence and her dress transparent that the conceited beauty of her person might appear through it to advantage she cast her eyes frequently upon

herself then turned them on those that were present to see whether anyone regarded her and now and then looked on the figure she made in her own shadow as they drew nearer the former continued the same composed pace while the latter striving to get before her ran up to hercules and addressed herself to him in the following manner i perceive my dear hercules you are in doubt which path in life you should pursue if then you will be my friend and follow me i will lead you to a path the most easy and most delightful

wherein you shall taste all the sweets of life and live exempt from every trouble you shall neither be concerned in war nor in the affairs of the world but shall only consider how to gratify all your senses your taste with the finest dainties and most delicious drink your sight with the most agreeable objects your scent with the richest perfumes and fragrancy of odors how you may enjoy the embraces of the fair repose on the softest beds render your slumbers sweet and easy and by what means enjoy without even the smallest care all of those glorious

and mighty blessings and for fear you suspect that the sources whence you are to derive these invaluable blessings might at some time or other fail and that you might of course be obliged to acquire them at some expense of your mind and the united labor and fatigue of your body i beforehand assure you that you shall freely enjoy all from the industry of others undergo neither hardship nor drudgery but have everything at your command that can afford you any pleasure or advantage hercules hearing the lady make him such offers desired to know her name to

which she answered my friends and those who are well acquainted with me and whom i have conducted call me happiness but my enemies and those who would injure my reputation have given me the name of pleasure in the meantime the other lady approached and in her turn accosted him in this manner i also am come to you hercules to offer my assistance i who am well acquainted with your divine extraction and have observed the excellence of your nature even from your childhood from which i have reasoned to hope that if you would follow the path

that leadeth to my residence you will undertake the greatest enterprises and achieve the most glorious actions and that i shall thereby become more honorable and illustrious among mortals but before i invite you into my society and friendship i will be open and sincere with you and must lay down this as an established truth that there is nothing truly valuable which can be purchased without pains and labor the gods have set a price upon every real and noble pleasure if you would gain the favor of the deity you must be at the pains of worshiping him

if you would be beloved by your friends you must study to oblige them if you would be honored by any city you must be of service to it and if you would be admired by all greece on account of your probity and valor you must exert yourself to do her some eminent service if you would render your fields fruitful and fill your arms with corn you must labor to cultivate the soil accordingly would you grow rich by your herds a proper care must be taken of them would you extend your dominions by arms and be

rendered capable of setting at liberty your captive friends and bringing your enemies to subjection you must not only learn of those that are experienced in the art of war but exercise yourself also in the use of military affairs and if you would excel in the strength of your body you must keep your body in due subjection to your mind and exercise it with labor and pains here pleasure broke in upon her discourse do you see my dear hercules through what long and difficult ways this woman would lead you to her promised delights follow me and

i will show you a much shorter and much easier way to happiness alas replied the goddess of virtue whose visage glowed with a passion made up of scorn and pity what happiness can you bestow or what pleasure can you taste who would never do anything to acquire it you who will take your fill of all pleasures before you feel an appetite for any you eat before you are hungry you drink before you are a thirst and that you may please your taste must have the finest artists to prepare your vines the richest wines that you

may drink with pleasure and to give your wine the finer taste you search every place for ice and snow luxuriously to cool it in the heat of summer then to make your slumbers uninterrupted you must have the softest down and the easiest couches and a gentle ascent of steps to save you from any of the least disturbance in mounting up to them and all little enough heaven knows for you have not prepared yourself for sleep by anything you have done but seek after it only because you have nothing to do it is the same in

the enjoyment of love in which you rather force than follow your inclinations and are obliged to use arts and even to pervert nature to keep your passions alive thus it is that you instruct your followers kept awake for the greatest part of the night by debaucheries and consuming in drowsiness all the most useful part of the day though immortal you are an outcast from the gods and despised by good men never have you heard that most agreeable of all sounds your own praise nor ever have you beheld the most pleasing of all objects any good

work of your own hands who would ever give any credit to anything you say who would assist you in your necessity or what man of sense whatever venture to be of your mad parties such as do follow you are robbed of their strength when they are young void of wisdom when they grow old in their youth they are bred up in indolence and all manner of delicacy and past their old age with difficulties and distress full of shame for what they have done and depressed with the burden of what they are to do squanderers of

pleasures in their youth and hoarders up of afflictions for their old age on the contrary my conversation is with the gods and with good men and there is nothing excellent performed by either without my influence i am respected above all things by the gods and by the best of mortals and it is just i should i am an agreeable companion to the artisan a faithful security to masters of families a kind assistant to servants a useful associate in the arts of peace a faithful ally in the laborers of war and the best uniter of all

friendships my voters too enjoy a pleasure in everything they either eat or drink even without having labored for it because they wait for the demand of their appetites their sleep is sweeter than that of the indolent and inactive and they are neither overburdened with it when they awake nor do they for the sake of it omit the necessary duties of life my young men have the pleasure of being praised by those who are in years and those who are in years of being honored by those who are young they look back with comfort on their

past actions and delight themselves in the present employments by my means they are favored by the gods beloved by their friends and honored by their country and when the appointed period of their lives has come they are not lost in a dishonorable oblivion but live and flourish in the praises of mankind even to the latest posterity thus my dear hercules who are descended of divine ancestors you may acquire by virtuous toil and industry this most desirable state of perfect happiness such was the discourse my friend which the goddess had with hercules according to prodigus you

may believe that he embellished the thoughts with more noble expressions than i do i heartly wish my dear aristipus that you should make such an improvement of those divine instructions as that you too may make such a happy choice as may render you happy during the future course of your life end of section 7 recording by scheib section 8 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by eddie often the memorable thoughts of

socrates by xenophon translated by edward bishi book 1 chapter 7. in what manner socrates dissuaded ben from self-conceit and ostentation but let us now see whether by dissuading his friends from a vain ostentation he did not exhort them to the pursuit of virtue he frequently said that there was no readier way to glory than to render oneself excellent and not to effect to appear so to prove this he ledge the following example let us suppose he said that anyone would be thought a good musician without being so in reality what course must he take he

must be careful to imitate the great masters in everything that is not of their art he must like them have find musical instruments he must like them be followed by a great number of persons wherever he goes who must be always talking in his praise and yet he must not venture to sing in public for then all men would immediately perceive not only his ignorance but his presumption folly likewise and would it not be ridiculous in him to spend his estate to ruin his reputation and like manor if anyone would appear a great general or

a good pilot though he knew nothing of the either what would be the issue of it and if he cannot make others believe it it troubles him and if he can persuade them to think so he is yet more unhappy because if he be made choice of for the steering of ships or to command an army he would acquit himself very ill of this office and perhaps be the cause of the loss of his best friends it is not less dangerous to appear to be rich or brave or strong if we are not so indeed

for this opinion of us may procure us employments that are above our capacity and if we fail to affect what was expected of us there is no remission of our faults and if it be a great cheat to weedle one of your neighbors out of any of his ready money or goods and not restore them to him afterwards is much greater impudence and cheat for a worthless fellow to persuade the world that he is capable to govern a republic by these in the like arguments he inspired a hatred of vanity and ostentation into the minds

of those who frequented him end of section 8 section 9 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by eddie elfman book two chapter two socrates's discourse with his eldest son lamprecleese concerning the respect due to parents socrates observing his eldest son lamproclees in a rage with his mother spoke to him in this manner come hither my son have you ever heard of a certain sort of men who are called ungrateful very often

answered the young man and do you know said socrates why they are called so we call a man ungrateful answered lamproclease who having received a kindness does not return the like if occasion offers i think therefore said socrates ingratitude is a kind of injustice i think so too answers lamproclees socrates went on have you never considered what nature this injustice is for since it is an unjustice to treat our friends ill and on the contrary a piece of justice to make our enemies smart for their conduct may it be said would like reason that it

is an injustice to be ungrateful towards our friends and that it is just to be ungrateful towards our enemies on mature consideration answered lemproclees i think it is criminal to do injustice to either of them if then pursued socrates ingratitude be an injustice it follows that the greater the favors are which we have received the greater is the injustice in not acknowledging them lamproclees granted this consequence and socrates continued can there be any stricter obligations than those that children are laid under to their parents for it is they who gave them a being and who

have put them in a condition to behold all the wonders of nature and to partake of the many good things exhibited before them by the bounty of providence and which are so delightful that there is not anything that all men more dread than to leave them in so much that all governments have ordained death to be the punishment of the most enormous crimes because there's nothing can more effectually put a stop to the rage of the wicked than the apprehension of death and the affair of marriage is not merely the gratification of the appetite which

nature has so strongly implanted in both sexes for their preservation that we regard no that passion can be satisfied in a less expensive manner even on our streets and other places but when we design to enter into that state we make choice of a woman of such a form and shape by whom we may expect to have fine children and of such a temper and disposition is to assure us of future happiness when that is finished it is then the chief care of the husband to maintain his wife and to provide for his children things

useful for life in the greatest abundance he can on part of the wife many of her anxieties and troubles for the preservation of her offspring during the time of her pregnancy she gives it to them part of her nourishment in life and after having suffered the sharpest pains at the moment of its birth she then gives it suck and continues her care and love to it all this she does to the poor helpless infant so void of reason that it knows not even her that is so good to it nor can ask her for its

own necessities full of tenderness for the welfare and happiness of her babe her whole time day and night is spent in pleasing it without the least prospect of any recompense for all her fatigue after this when the children are come to an age fit to be instructed the fathers teach them all the good things they can for the conduct of their life and if they know any man more capable to instruct them than themselves they send them to him without regard to the expense thus indicating by their whole conduct what sincere pleasure it would afford

them to see their children turn out men of virtue and probability undoubtedly answered lampro please if my mother had done all this and a hundred times as much no man could suffer her ill humors do not you think said socrates that the anger of a beast is much more difficult to support than that of a mother not of a mother like her said lambrecleese socrates continued what strange thing has she done to you has she bit you as she kicked you as beasts do when they're angry she has a tongue that no mortal can suffer

answered lamproclease and you replied socrates how many crosses did you give her in your infancy by your continual balling and important actions how much trouble by night and by day how much affliction in your illnesses at worst answered lampar please i never did nor said anything that might make her blush alas said socrates is it more difficult for you to hear in patience the hasty expressions of your mother than it is for the comedians to hear what they say to one another on the stage when they fall into the most injurious reproaches for they easily

suffer it knowing well that when one reviles another he revels him not with intent to injure him and when one threatens another he threatens not with design to do him any harm you who are fully convinced likewise of the intentions of your mother and who know very well that the hard words she gives you do not proceed from hate but says she has a great affection for you how can you then be angry with her is it because you imagine she wishes you ill not in the least answered lamproclees i never had such a thought

what continued socrates a mother that loves you a mother who in your sickness does all she can to recover your health who takes care that you want for nothing who makes so many vows to heaven for you you say this is an ill mother in truth if you cannot live with her i will say you cannot live at your ease tell me in short do you believe you ought to have any reverence or respect for anyone whatever or do you not care for any man's favor and good will neither for that of a general suppose

or of any other magistrate on the contrary said lamprocleese i'm very careful to gain the goodwill of all men perhaps you would endeavor to acquire the good will of your neighbor to the end he might do you kind offices such as giving you fire when you want it or when any misfortune befalls you speedily relieve you yes i would and if you were traveling with a man either by sea or land would you count it a matter of indifference whether you were loved by him or not no indeed are you then so abandoned lampre please

replied socrates that you would take pains to acquire the goodwill of those persons and yet will do nothing to your mother who loves you incomparably better than they know you not that the republic concerns not herself with common instances of ingratitude that she takes no cognizance of such crimes and that she neglects to punish those who do not return the civilities they receive but if anyone be disrespectful to his parents there is a punishment provided for such ingratitude the laws reject him as an outlaw and will not allow him to be received into any public

office because it is a maxim commonly received amongst us that the sacrifice one offered by an impulse hand cannot be acceptable to the gods nor profitable to the republic nobody can believe that a person of such a character can be capable to perform any great or worthy action or to act to the part of a righteous judge the same punishment is ordained likewise for those who after the death of their parents neglect to honor their funerals and this is particularly examined into the inquiry that is made into lives of such stand candidates for of therefore

my son if you be wise you will beseech heaven to pardon you the offences committed against your mother to the end that the favors of the deity may still be continued to you that you may not forfeit them by an ungrateful behavior take care likewise that the public may not discover the contempt you show her for then who be blamed and abandoned by all the world for if it were suspected that you did not gratefully resent the benefits conferred on you by your parents no man could believe you would be grateful for any kind actions

that others might do you end of section 9 section 10 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by eddie elfman book two chapter three socrates reconciles sheriff sherafon and sarah kreidy's two brothers who were formerly at variants two brothers whose names were sherafon and sharacrates were at enmity with each other socrates was acquainted with them and had a great mind to make them friends meeting therefore with sheriff cradies he accosted him thus are

you two one of those who prefer the being rich to having a brother and who do not consider that riches being inanimate things have need of being defended whereas a brother is himself a good defense and after all that there is more money than brothers ford is not extravagant in such men to imagine that a brother does them wrong because they enjoy not his estate but say they not likewise that all worlds does them wrong because they're not in possession of what belongs to the breast of mankind but they believe with great reason that it

is better to live in society and be insured of all moderate estates than to have the sole possession of all that is their neighbors and to be exposed to the dangers that are inseparable from solitude nevertheless they are not of the same opinion as to the company of their brothers if they are rich they buy themselves slaves to serve them they procure themselves friends to stand by them but for their brothers they neglect them as if a brother were not so fit to make a friend of as another person and yet it is of great

efficacy towards the beginning and establishing of friendships to have been born of the same parents and brought up together since even beasts we see retain some inclination for those who have come from the same dams and have been bred up and nourished together besides a man who has a brother is the more regarded for and men are more cautious to offend him sir cradies answered him thus you are indeed in the right to say that a good brother is a great happiness and unless there be a very strong case of dissension i think that brothers

ought a little to bear with one another and not part on a slight occasion but when a brother fails in all things and is quite the reverse of what he ought to be would you have a man do what is impossible and continue in good amity with such a person socrates replied does your brother give offense to all the world as well as to you does nobody speak well of him that said cher cradies is one of the chief causes of the hatred liberum for he is sly enough to please others but whenever we too

happen to meet you would think his soul designed were to fall out with me socrates replied does not this proceed from what i am going to say when any man would make use of a horse and knows not how to govern him he can expect nothing from him but trouble thus if we know not in what manner to behave ourselves towards our brother do we think we can expect anything from him but uneasiness why do you imagine said cherokees that i am ignorant in what manner i ought to carry myself to a brother since i

can show him as much love and respect both of my words and actions as he can show me in his but when i see a man endeavor to disoblige me in all manner of ways shall i express any good will for that man no this is what i cannot do and would not so much as endeavor it i'm astonished to hear you talk after this matter said socrates pray tell me if you had a dog that were good to keep your flocks who should fawn on your shepherds and grin his teeth and snarl whenever you

come in his way whether instead of being angry with him you would not make much of him to bring him to know you now you say that a good brother is a great happiness you confess that you know how to oblige him and yet you put it not in practice to reconcile yourself with sheriff on i fear i have not skill enough to compose it i think said socrates there will be no need of an extraordinary skill in the matter and i'm certain that you have enough to engage him to wish you well and to

have a great value for you today cried sharokritis if you know any art i have to make myself beloved let me know it immediately for hitherto i never perceive any such thing answer me said socrates if you desired that one of your friends should invite you to his feast when he offered to sacrifice what course would you take i would begin first to invite him to mine and if you would engage him to take care of your affairs and your absence on a journey what would you do i would first during his absence take care

of his and if you would have a foreigner entertain you and his family when you come into his country what method would you take i would make him welcome at my house when he comes to this town and would endeavor to further the dispatches of his business that he might do me the like favor when i should be in the city where he lives strange said socrates that you who know the common methods of ingratiating yourself will not be at the pains of practicing them why do you scribble to begin to practice those methods is

it because you're afraid that should you begin with your brother and first do him a kindness you would appear to be of a mean-spirited and cringing disposition believe me my friend you will never on that account appear such on the contrary i take it to be the part of an heroic and generous soul to prevent our friends with kindness and our enemies with valor indeed had i thought that sharaphan had been more proper than you to propose the reconciliation i would have endeavoured to have persuaded him to prevent you but i take you be more

fit to manage this matter and believe you will bring it to pass rather than he what you say is absurd than worthy of you replied sherokratis would you have me break the ice i who am the younger brother do you forget that among all nations the honor to begin is reserved to the elder what do you mean said socrates must not a younger brother give the presidency to the older must you not rise up when he comes in give him the best place and hold his peace and let him speak delay therefore no longer to

do what i desire you go and try to appease your brother he will receive you with open arms it is enough that he is a friend of honor and of a generous temper for as there is no readier way to gain the good well of the mean and poor than by being liberal to them so nothing has more influence on the mind of a man of honor and note than to treat him with respect and friendship cherokees objected when i have done what you say if my brother should not be bad or tempered what then

what harm would it be to you said socrates it will show your goodness and that you love him and make him appear to be ill-natured and not deserving to be obliged by any man i am of the opinion this will not happen when he sees that you attack him with civilities and good offices i am certain he will endeavor to get the better of you and so kind and generous contention you are now in the most wretched condition imaginable it is as if the hands which god had given us reciprocally to aid each other were

employed only to hinder one another or as if the feet which by the divine providence were made to assist each other to walk were busied only in preventing one another from going forward would it not then be a great ignorance at the same time a great misfortune to turn to our disadvantage what was made only for our utility now it is certain that god has given us brothers only for our good and that our two brothers are a great advantage to one another than it can be to either of them to have two hands two

feet two eyes and other the like members which are double in our body which nature has designed as brothers the hands cannot at the same time reach two things several fathoms distance from one another the feet cannot stretch themselves from the end of one fathom to another the eyes which seem to discover from so far cannot at the same time see the four and the hinder part of one and the same object but when two brothers are good friends no distance of place can hinder them from serving each other end of section 10. section 11

of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by dave stevens the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward baichi book 2 chapter 4 a discourse of socrates concerning friendship i remember likewise a discourse which i have heard him make concerning friendship and that may be of great use to instruct us by what means we ought to procure ourselves friends and in what manner we should live with them he said that most

men agree that a true friend is a precious treasure and that nevertheless there is nothing about which we can give ourselves so little trouble as to make men our friends we take care said he to buy houses lands slaves flocks and household goods and when we have them we endeavor to keep them but though a friend is allowed to be capable of affording us a far greater happiness than any of all of these yet how few are solicitous to procure themselves a friend or when they have to secure his friendship nay some men are so

stupid as to prefer their very slaves to their friends how else can we account for their want of concern about the latter when either in distress or sickness and at the same time their extreme anxiety for the recovery of the former when in the same condition for then immediately physicians are sent for and all remedies that can be thought of applied to their belief should both of them happen to die they will regret more the loss of their slave than that of their friend and shed more tears over the grave of the former than of

the latter they take care of everything but their friends they will examine into and take great notice of the smallest trifle in their affairs which perhaps stand in no need of their care but neglect their friends that do in short though they have many estates they know them all but though they have but few friends yet they know not the number of them in so much that if they are desired to name them they are puzzled immediately so little are their friends in their thoughts nevertheless there is nothing comparable to a good friend no slave

is so affectionate to our person or interest no horse can render us so great service in a word nothing is so useful to us in all occasions for a true friend supplies all the wants and answers all the demands of another either in the conduct of his private affairs or in the management of the public if for instance his friend be obliged to do a kindness to any man he puts him in the way of it if he be assaulted with any danger he immediately flies to his relief at one time he gives him part

of his estate at another he assists him with the labor of his hands sometimes he helps him to persuade sometimes he aids him to compel in prosperity he heightens his delight by rejoicing with him in adversity he diminisheth his sorrows by bearing a share of them the use a man may make of his hands his eyes his ears his feet is nothing when at all compared to the service one friend may render another for often what we cannot do for our own advantage what we have not seen nor thought nor heard of when our own

interests were concerned what we have not pursued for ourselves a friend has done for his friend how foolish were it to be at so much trouble in cultivating a small orchard of trees because we expect some fruit from it and yet be it no pains to cultivate that which is instead of a whole estate i mean friendship a soil the most glorious and fertile where we are sure to gather the fairest and best of fruit end of section 11. section 12 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox

recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by jennifer painter the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 2 chapter 5 of the worth and value of friends to what i have advanced above i shall here relate another discourse of his as far as i can remember in which he exhorted his hearers to examine themselves that they might know what value their friends might set upon them for seeing a man who has abandoned his friend in extreme poverty he asked antisthenes this question in

presence of that very man and several others can we set a price upon friends as we do upon slaves one slave may be worth twenty crowns another not worth five such a one will cost fifty crowns another will yield a hundred nay i am told that narcissus the son of nicoratus gave even 600 crowns for one slave to be inspector of his silver mines do you think we might likewise set prices upon friends i believe we may answered antisthenes for there are some men by whom i would rather choose to be loved than to have

twenty crowns others for whose affection i would not spend five i know some two for whose friendship i would give all i am worth if it be so said socrates it would be well that each man should consider how much he can be worth to his friends and that he should endeavor to render himself as valuable as he can in their regard to the end they might not abandon him for when i hear one complain that his friend has betrayed him another that he whom he thought faithful has preferred a small gain to the preservation

of his friendship i reflect on these stories and ask whether as we sell a good-for-nothing slave for what we can get for him we are not likewise tempted to get rid of an ill friend when we are offered more for him than he is worth because i do not see men part with their slaves if they be good nor abandon their friends if they be faithful end of section 12 section 13 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or

to volunteer please visit librivox.org recorded by jennifer painter the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 2 chapter 6 of the choice of friends the following conversation of socrates with krytobulus may teach us how we ought to try friends and with whom it is good to contract friendship if we were to choose a friend said socrates to him what precaution ought we to take ought we not to look out for a man who is not given to luxury to drunkenness to women nor to idleness for with these vices he could never

be very useful to his friend nor to himself that is certain answer protobulous then said socrates if we found a man that loved to live great though he had not an estate to support the expense and who having daily occasion to employ the purses of his friends should show by his actions that whatever you lend him is so much lost and that if you do not lend him he will take it ill of you do you not think that such a man would be very improper to make a friend of there is no doubt of

it said krytobulus and if we found another continued socrates who was saving of what he had but who on the other hand was so covetous that it would be quite unfit to have anything to do with him because he would always be very ready to receive and never to give again in my opinion said cretobulus this would be a worse friend than the former and if we should find a man who was so carried away with the desire of enriching himself that he applied his mind to nothing else but getting all he could scrape together

we ought not to have anything to do with him neither answered chris for he would be good to no man but himself if we found a quarrelsome man continued socrates who was every day like to engage all his friends in new broils and squabbles what would you think of him that he ought to be avoided answered chrytobulus and if a man said socrates were free from all these faults and were only of a humor to desire to receive kindnesses but never to concern himself to return them what would you think of him that neither he

too would be proper to make a friend of replied christopoulous and indeed after having rejected so many i can scarce tell whom we should take we ought to take said socrates a man who were the reverse of all those we have mentioned who would be temperate in his manners faithful in his promises and sincere in all his actions who would think it a point of honour not to be outdone in civilities so that it would be of advantage to have to do with him but how can we be certain of all this said krytobulus before

we have tried him when we give our judgment of statuaries we have no regard replied socrates to what they say of themselves but consider their works and he who has already made good statues is the person of whom we have the best opinion for those he shall make in the future apply this to the question you asked me and be assured that a man who has served his former friends well will be likely to show no less affection for those that come after as we may strongly conjecture that a groom whom we have formally seen

dress horses very well is capable of dressing others but said krytobulus when we have found a man worthy of our choice how ought we to contract a friendship with him in the first place answered socrates we must inquire whether the gods approve of it but supposing they do not dissuade us how are we to take this precious prey not by hunting as we catch hairs said socrates nor in nets as we take birds nor by force as we take our enemies for it is very difficult to gain any man's friendship against his will or stop

him by force and detain him in prison as a slave seeing such ill usage would oblige him rather to wish us ill than to love us what then ought we to do pursued critobulous it is reported replied socrates that there are some words so powerful that they who know them make themselves loved by pronouncing them and that there are likewise other charms for the same purpose and where can one learn these words added cretobulus have you not read in homer answered socrates what the siren said to enchant ulysses the beginning of it is thus o

stay o pride of greece ulysses stay you say true continued krytobulus but did not they say as much to the others to stop them too not at all said socrates they encharted with these words only the generous men who were in love with virtue i begin to understand you said cretobulus and seeing this charm which is so powerful to enchant and captivate the mind is nothing but praise you mean that we ought to praise a man in such a manner that he may not distrust we laugh at him otherwise instead of gaining his affection we

shall incur his hate for it would be insupportable to a man who knows he is little and weak to be praised for his graceful appearance for being well shaped and of a robust constitution but do you know no other charms no answered socrates but i have indeed heard it said that pericles knew a great many by means of which he charmed the republic and gained the favor and esteem of all katobulas continued what was it that the mr cleese did to make himself so esteemed he used no other charms said socrates than the eminent services

he rendered to the state which is as much as to say replied chrytobulus that to gain the friendship of the great we must render ourselves capable to perform great actions and could you think it possible said socrates that anyone should share in the friendship of men of merit without being possessed of one good quality why not answered chrytobulus i have seen despicable returritions beloved by the most famous orators and persons who knew nothing of war live in familiarity with great generals but have you seen men who are fit for nothing for that is the question

we speak of get any friends of consequence i confess i have not answered krytobulus nevertheless since it is impossible for a man of no worth whatever to have the friendship of men of condition and merit tell me whether the man who acquires the character of worth and marriage obtains at the same time the friendship of all who possess that excellent character the reason i suppose why you ask this question answered socrates is because you frequently observe dissensions among those who equally cherish honor and would all of them rather die than commit a base action and

you are surprised that instead of living in friendship they disagree among themselves and are sometimes more difficult to reconcile than the vilest of all man this is a misfortune added to tobulus that arrives not among private men only for dissensions nay even wars will happen sometimes to break out in the best governed republics where virtue is in the highest repute and where vice is held in the utmost contempt now when i revolve these considerations in my mind i know not where to go in search of friends for it is impossible we see for the wicked

to cultivate a true friendship among themselves can there subsist a true and lasting friendship amongst the ungrateful the idol the covetous the treacherous and the dissolute no for persons of such a character will mutually expose themselves to hatred and contempt to hatred because of the hurtful effects of their vices to contempt on account of the deformity of them neither on the other hand can we expect as you have well observed to find friendship between a virtuous man and a person of the opposite character for how can they who commit crimes be in good amity with

those that abhor them but what puzzles me most my dear socrates is to see men of merit and virtue harassing one another and endeavouring to the utmost of their power to crush and ruin their antagonists when in different interests both are contending for the most lucrative posts of the republic i am quite at a loss to account for such a conduct on the principles of friendship for when i daily observe the noblest affections of the mind rooted up by the sordid views of interest i am in a great doubt whether there is any real friendship

and affection in the world my dear friend replied socrates this matter is very intricate four if i mistake not nature has placed in men the principles both of friendship and dissension a friendship because they have need of one another they have compassion of their miseries they relieve one another in their necessities and they are grateful for the assistances which they lend one another of dissension because one and the same thing being agreeable to many they can tend to have it and endeavor to prejudice and thwart one another in their designs thus strife and anger beget

war avarice stifles benevolence envy produces hate but friendship overcoming all these difficulties finds out the virtuous and unites them together four out of a motive of virtue they choose rather to live quietly in a mean condition than to gain the empire of the whole earth by the calamities of war when they are pinched with hunger or thirst they endure them with constancy till they can relieve themselves without being troublesome to anyone when at any time their desires for the enjoyments of love grow violent and headstrong then reason or self-government lays hold on the reins checks

the impetuosity of the passion keeps it within due bounds and will not allow them to transgress the great rule of their duty they enjoy what is lawfully their own and are so far from usurping the rights and properties of others that they even give them part of what they have they agree their differences in such a manner that all are gainers and no man has reason to complain they are never transported with anger so far as to commit any action of which they may afterwards repent envy is a passion they are ignorant of because they

live in a mutual communication of what they possess and consider what belongs to their friends as things in their own position from hence you see that the virtuous do not only not oppose but that they aid one another in the employments of the republic for they who seek for honors and great offices only to have an opportunity of enriching themselves and exercising a cruel tyranny or to live an easy and effeminate life are certainly very wicked and unjust nor can they ever hope to live in friendship with any man but why should he who desires

not any authority but only the better to defend himself from the wicked or to assist his friends or be serviceable to his country why should such a man i say not agree with another whose intentions are the same with his own is it because he would be less capable to serve the republic if he had virtuous associates in the administration of affairs if in the tournaments and other games the most strong were permitted to enter into a league against the weaker they would infallibly be victors in all the courses and win all the prizes for

which reason they are not suffered to do so therefore in affairs of state since no man is hindered from joining with whom he pleases to do good to the republic is it not more advantageous when we concern ourselves in the government to make friendship with men of honour and probity who are generally two the most knowing and capable and to have them for our associates than to make them our adversaries for it is manifest that when a man is engaged in a combat he ought to have some to assist him and that he will have

need of a great many if those whom he opposes be valiant and powerful besides he must be liberal and give presents to those who espouse his quarrel to encourage them to make a more resolute and vigorous defense now it is beyond all dispute that it is much better to oblige the good though they are but few than the wicked of whom there is a great number because the former are easily gained over to your side whereas the latter are hardly won by the best favors and those in the greatest abundance too to espouse your interest

however it be cretobulous take courage endeavour only to become virtuous and then boldly pursue the friendship of honest men this is a sort of chase in which i may be helpful to you because i am naturally inclined to love i attack briskly those i love and lay out all my skill to make myself beloved by them i endeavor to kindle in their minds a flame like mine and to make them desire my company as ardently as i long for theirs you stand in need of this address when you would contract a friendship with anyone hide

not then the secrets of your soul from me but let me know who they are for whom you have a regard for having made it my study to please those who were agreeable to me i believe that by long experience i now have got some considerable insight into the pursuits and ways of men i have longed a great while said krytobulus to learn this art especially if it may be employed to gain me the friendship of those whose persons are not only comely and genteel but whose minds are replenished and adorned with all virtue socrates

replied but my method forbids to use violence and i am of opinion that all men fled from the wretched cilla because she detained them by force whereas the sirens did no violence to any man and employed only their tuneful voices to detain those who passed near them so that all stopped to hear and suffered themselves to be insensibly charmed by the music of their songs be sure said krytobulus that i will use no violence to them whose friendship i would gain and therefore delay no longer to teach me your art will you give me your

word likewise said socrates that you will not even give them a kiss i promise you said krytobulus i will not unless they are very beautiful persons you must take the matter replied socrates the beautiful permit not those liberties but the ugly grant them freely enough because they know very well that should any beauty be ascribed to them it is only in consideration of that of the soul i will not transgress in this point said cretobulus only in part to me the secret you know to gain friends when you would contract a friendship with anyone said

socrates you must give me leave to tell him that you have a great esteem for him and that you desire to be his friend with all my heart answered chris for sure no man can wish ill to a man who esteems him and if i add besides continued socrates that because you set a great value on his merit you have much affection for his person will you not take it or miss not at all said cretobulus for i am sensible we have a great kindness for those who bear us goodwill i may then said socrates

speak in that manner to those whom you desire to love but will you likewise give me leave to advance that your greatest pleasure is to have good friends that you take great care of them that you behold their good actions with as much joy as if you yourself had performed them and that you rejoice at their good fortune as much as at your own that you are never weary when you are serving them and that you believe it is the glory of a man of honor to surpass his friends in benefits and his enemies in

valor by this means i think i shall be very useful to you in procuring you good friends why do you ask me leave said christobulous as if you might not say of me whatever you please no indeed answered socrates for i remember what aspasia once said that matchmakers are successful in their business when they tell truth of the persons in whose behalf they caught but that the marriage is made by their lies are unfortunate because they who are deceived hate one another and hate yet more the person that put them together and therefore for the

same reason i think i ought not to tell lies in your praise you are then so far only my friend replied catobulous that if i have any good qualities to make myself be esteemed you will assist me if not you will invent nothing in my behalf and do you think said socrates that i should do you more service in giving you false praises that are not your due than by exhorting you to merit the praise of all men if you doubt of this consider the consequences of it if for instance i should tell the owner

of a ship that you are an excellent pilot and that he upon that should give you the conduct of the vessel what hopes could you have that you should not perish or if i should say publicly that you are an experienced general or a great politician and if you by that character which i should unjustly have obtained for you should be promoted to the supreme magistracy to what dangers would you expose your own life and the fortune of the state or if i should make any private person believe that you were a good economist and

he should trust you afterwards with the care of his family would you not be the ruin of his estate and expose yourself to ridicule and contempt which is as much to say cretobulus that the shortest and surest way to live with honor in the world is to be in reality what we would appear to be and if you observe you will find that all human virtues increase and strengthen themselves by the practice and experience of them take my advice then and labor to acquire them but if you are of a different opinion pray let me

know it i might well be ashamed answered christopoulos to contradict you for no good nor solid objection can be brought against so rational an assertion end of section 13 section 14 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by jennifer painter the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 2 chapter 7 socrates showeth aristarchus how to get rid of poverty socrates had an extreme tenderness for his friends and if

through imprudence they fell into any misfortune he endeavoured to comfort them by his good counsels if they labored under poverty he did all he could to relieve them teaching all men that they ought mutually to assist one another in necessity i will set down some examples of his behavior in these occasions meeting aristarchus who looked very dejected he said to him i see aristarchus that something troubles you but impart the cause of your grief to your friends and perhaps we may comfort you indeed said he i am in great affliction for since the late troubles

many persons having fled for shelter to the piraeus it has so fallen out that my sisters nieces and cousins have all thrown themselves upon me so that i have no less than 14 of them to maintain you know very well that we receive no profit of our lands the enemies being masters of the open country our houses in the city are uninhabited they're being at present very little company in athens nobody will buy any goods no man will lend money upon any interest whatever and i believe we may as soon take it up in the

middle of the streets as to find where to borrow it and i am much concerned that i shall not be able to assist my relations whom i see ready to perish while it is impossible for me to maintain them in the present scarcity of all things socrates having heard him patiently said to him how comes it to pass that ceremon who has so many persons in his family finds means not only to maintain them but likewise to enrich himself by the profit he makes of them and that you are afraid of starving to death because

you have a great many in your family the reason answered aristarchus is this ceremon has none but slaves to take care of and i am to provide for persons who are free socrates went on for which have you most esteem for ceremonies slaves or for the persons who are at your house there is no comparison between them said aristarchus is it not then a shameful thing replied socrates that ceremon should grow rich by means of those whom you acknowledge to be of less value and that you should grow poor and be reduced to straits though

you keep men of condition in your house whom you value more by no means said aristarchus there is a wide difference between the two the slaves that ceremon keeps follow some trades but the persons i have with me have had a liberal education and follow none may not he replied socrates who knows how to do anything that is useful be said to know a trade yes certainly and are not continued socrates oatmeal bread the clothes of men and women cassocks coats and other the like manufacturers things very useful without doubt and do not the persons

at your house know how to make any of these things on the contrary said aristarchus i believe they know how to make all of them what are you then afraid of added socrates why do you complain of poverty since you know how to get rich do not you observe how wealthy nulcidies is become what numerous herds he is master of and what fast sums he lends the republic now what makes this man so rich why nothing but one of those manufactures we mentioned that of making oatmeal you see too that certhis keeps all his family

and lives at his ease upon what he has got by being a baker and how does demius of the village of colletus get his livelihood by making cassocks what makes mennon live so comfortably his cloak manufacturer and are not most of the inhabitants of megara in good circumstances enough by the trade which they drive of coats and short jackets i grant all this said aristarchus but still there is a difference betwixt these persons and me for whereas they have had with them some barbarians whom they have bought and compelled to work what brings them in

game i for my part keep only ladies and gentlemen at my house persons who are free and some of them my own relations now would you have me to set them to work and because they are free and your relations said socrates do you think they ought to do nothing but eat and sleep do you observe that they who live thus idle and at their ease lead more comfortable lives than others do you think they're more content more cheerful that is to say more happy than those who employ themselves in any of those manufactures we

have mentioned or in whatever else tends to the utility or convenience of life do you imagine that idleness and laziness contribute towards our learning things necessary that they can enable us to retain those things we have already learnt that they help to strengthen the body or keep it in health that they can assist us to get riches or keep what we have got already and do you believe that labor and industry are good for nothing why did your ladies learn what you say they know did they believe them to be useless things and had they

resolved never to put them in practice or on the contrary was it with design to employ themselves in those matters and to get something by them is it a greater piece of wisdom to sit still and do nothing than to busy oneself in things that are of use in life and that turn to account and is it not more reasonable for a man to work than to be with his arms across thinking how he shall do to live shall i tell you my mind aristarchus well then i am of opinion that in the condition you

are in you cannot love your guests nor they you for this reason that you on the one hand feel they are a burden to you and they on the other perceive you uneasy and discontented on their account and it is to be feared that the discontent will increase on both sides and that the sense of past favors will wear off but when you set them to work you will begin to love them because they will bring you some profit and when they find that you regard them with more complacency they will not fail to have

more love for you the remembrance of your kindnesses will be more grateful to them and the obligations they have to you will be the greater in a word you will be kinder relations and better friends indeed if what they were to do was a thing worthy of blame it would be better to die than to think of it but what they can do is honorable and becoming of their sex and whoever knows how to do a thing well will acquit himself of it with honor and pleasure therefore defer no longer to make the proposal to

them since it will be so advantageous to all of you and be assured they will receive it with joy and pleasure good god what a fine scheme you have proposed indeed i cannot but approve of it may it has made such a wonderful impression on my mind that whereas i was lately against borrowing money at all because i saw that when i had spent it i should not be in a condition to repay it i am now resolved to go try where i can take some up on any terms to buy tools and other materials

to set ourselves to work what was proposed was fourth with executed aristarchus bought what he wanted he laid in a provision of wool and the ladies worked from morning to night this occupation diverted their melancholy and instead of the uneasiness there was before between them and aristarchus they began to live in a reciprocal satisfaction the ladies loved him as their protector and he considered them as persons who were very useful and necessary to him to conclude sometime afterwards aristarchus came to see socrates and related the whole matter to him with great content and told him

the women began to complain that none but he was idle why do you not put them in mind said socrates of the fable of the dog four in the days when beasts could speak according to the fable the sheep said to her master you are a strange man we yield you wool lambs and cheeses and yet you give us nothing but what we can get upon the ground and the dog who brings you in no profit is kindly used for you feed him with the same bread you eat yourself the dog overhearing this complaint answered

her it is not without reason that i am used so well it is i who protect you it is i who hinder thieves from taking you away and wolves from sucking your blood if i were not always keeping watch about you you would not dare so much as to go to feed this answer was the reason that the sheep yielded freely to the dog they honor they pretended to before in like manner do you also let these ladies know that it is you who are their guardian and protector and that you watch over them for

their safety with as much care as a faithful and courageous dog watcheth over a herd committed to his charge tell them that because of you no man dares hurt them and that it is by your means that they live at ease and in safety end of section 14. section 15 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bishey book two chapter eight socrates first persuades

authors to abandon his former way of living and to betake himself to some more useful and honorable employment another time meeting with authors one of his old friends whom he had not seen for a great while before he inquired of him from whence he came at present answered oysters i come not from abroad but towards the end of the war i returned from a voyage i had made for after having lost all the estate i had upon the frontiers and my father having left me nothing in attica i was forced to work for my living

and i believe it better to do so than to be troublesome to others besides i can no longer borrow anything because i have nothing left to mortgage and how much longer said socrates do you think you shall be able to work for your living a last but the short while answered authors nevertheless replied socrates when you come to be old it will cost you something to maintain yourself and yet you will not then be able to earn anything you say very true you had best then continued socrates employ yourself now in business that will enable

you to lay by something for your old age and get into the service of some rich man who has occasion for an economist to have the inspection over his workman together in his fruits to preserve what belongs to him that he may reward you for the service you do to him i should find it very difficult replied authors to submit to be a slave yet said socrates the magistrates and republics and all that are in employments are not therefore reputed slaves on the contrary they are esteemed honorable busy does it will said authors i can

never think of entering into any office where i might be liable to blame for i would not like to be centered by another but where said socrates will you find any employment in which a man is absolutely perfect and altogether free from blame for it is very difficult to be so exact as not to fail sometimes and even though we should not have failed it is hard to escape the center of bad judges and i should think it a very odd and surprising thing if in that very employment wherein you say you are now engaged

you were so dexterous an expert so that no man should find anything amiss what you are therefore to observe is to avoid those who make it their business to find fault without reason and have to do with more equitable persons to undertake what you can actually perform to reject what you find yourself unfit to do and when you have taken in hand to do anything to accomplish it in a manner the most excellent and perfect you can thus you will be less subject to be blamed will find relief to your poverty lead an easier life

be out of danger and will sufficiently provide for the necessities of your old age end of section 15 section 16 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org the memorable thoughts of socrates by cinephone translated by edward bishi book 2 chapter 9 in what manner socrates taught his friend creto to rid himself of some informers who took the advantage of his easy temper one day krito happening to meet socrates complained to him that it

was very difficult for a man who would keep what he had to live in athens four said he i am now sued by some men though i never did them the least injury but only because they know that i had rather give them a little money than embroil myself in the troubles of law socrates said to him do you keep dogs to hinder the wolves from coming at your flocks you need no doubt but i do answered krito ought you not likewise replied socrates to keep a man who were able to drive away all those

that trouble you without cause i would with all my heart said krito but that i fear that in the end he too would turn against me why so said socrates is it not better to serve a man like you and to receive favors from him than to have him for an enemy you may be certain that there are in this city many men who would think themselves very happy to be honored with your friendship after this they happened to see a certain person named arjedimus who was a man of very good parts eloquent and extremely

skillful in the management of affairs but was all very poor and in a low condition for he was not of that sordid disposition to take all he could get by what means so ever but he was a lover of justice and of honest men and abhorred to make rich or to raise himself by informing and backbiting for he held that nothing was more base than that wretched practice of those miscreants called sycophants or informers krito cast an eye upon him and as often as they brought him any corn or wine or oil or any other

thing from his country houses he sent him some of it when he offered sacrifices he invited him to the feast and showed him many civilities of the like nature arjedimus seeing the doors of that house opened to him at all times and that he always found so favorable a reception laid aside all his former dependencies and trusted himself wholly to krito then he made it his business immediately to inquire into the characters of those sycophants who had slandered krito or informed against him and found them to be guilty of many crimes and that they had

a great number of enemies this encouraged him to take them to task and he prosecuted one of them for a crime which would have subjected him to a corporal punishment or at least to a pecuniary mocked fellow who knew his case to be bad and that he could not justify himself employed all sorts of stratagems to get rid of archaedemus who nevertheless would not quit his hold till the other had just charged creto and given him money besides in name of trouble and charges he managed several of his affairs was like success which made krito

be thought happy in having him and as when a shepherd has an excellent dog the other shepherds are glad to bring their flocks near his that they may be safe likewise so several of krito's friends began to make their court to him and begged him to lend them archidemos to defend them he for his part was glad to oblige krito and it was observed at length that not only krito lived and disturbed but all his friends likewise and if anyone reproached archdemos that self-interest had made him the master's creature and to adore him and be

so faithful and zealous in his service he would answer him thus which of the two do you think most dishonorable to do services to men of quality from whom we have received favors and to enter into their friendship to declare war against bad men or to endeavor to prejudice men of honor and to make them our enemies that bad men may be our friends from thence forward krita contracted a strict friendship with archdemos and all his friends had likewise a great respect for him end of section 16. section 17 of the memorable thoughts of socrates

by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward b she book 2 chapter 10 socrates advises deodoros to do justice to the merit of hermogenes and to accept of his service and friendship socrates meeting one day with theodorus addressed him thus if one of your slaves ran away would you give yourself any trouble to find him yes certainly answered he and i would give public notice and promise a reward to any

that brought him to me and if one of them were sick would you take care of him and send for physicians to endeavour to save his life without doubt i would and if you saw replied socrates one of your friends that is to say a person who renders you a thousand times more service than a slave reduced to extreme want ought you not to relieve him i speak this to you on account of hermogenes you very well know he is not ungrateful and that he would scorn to receive the least favor from you and not

return you the like you know likewise that the great number of slaves are not to be valued like one man who serves willingly who serves with zeal and affection and who is not only capable of doing what he is desired but who can likewise of himself think of many things that may be of service to us who reasons well who foresees what may happen and from whom we may expect to receive good advice now the best managers hold it as a maxim that when we find anything of value to be sold cheap we ought to

buy it think of it therefore for as times now go you may procure yourself many friends at the cheap rate you say right replied theodores and therefore praise send hermogenes to me excuse me in that or answered socrates you would do as well to go to him yourself as to send for him this discourse was the reason that theodorus went to hermogenes and for a small gratification obliged him to be his friend after which hermogenes took particular care to please theodorus and sought all opportunities of serving him and of giving him content end of section

17. section 18 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bashi book 3 chapter 1 of the qualifications of a general let us now see how socrates was serviceable to those who were desirous to qualify themselves for employment of trust and honor by advising them to apply themselves diligently to the study of their duty that they might acquire a perfect knowledge of it having heard

that there was arrived at athens one dionysodoros who undertook to teach the art of war he made the following discourse to one of his friends who pretended to one of the highest posts in the army it were a scandalous thing said socrates to him for a man who aims to be chief over others to neglect to learn how to command when so fair on opportunity offers nay i think he would rather deserve to be punished that the man who should undertake to make a statue without having learned the sculptor's trade for as in war the

whole fortune of the republic is trusted to the general it is to be presumed that his good conduct will procure success and that his faults will be followed with great losses and therefore a man who should neglect to make himself capable of such an employment and yet pretend to it ought to be severely punished by these reasons he persuaded this young man to get himself instructed after the youth had imagined that he had acquired some knowledge of the art he returned to pay socrates a visit who just in him addressed the company that were present

in this manner do not you think gentlemen that as homer when speaking of agamemnon gives him the surname of venerable we ought also to bestow the same epithet on this young man who justly deserves to be called by that name since like him he has learned how to command for as a man who can play on the loot is a player on that instrument though he never touches it and as he who is knowing in the art of physic is a physician though he never practiced so this young man having learned to command is become

a general though not a man of us should ever give our voice to make him so on the contrary it is in vain for him who knows not how to command to get himself chosen he will not be one jot a better general for it no more than he who knows nothing of physic is a better physician because he has the reputation of being one then turning towards the young man he went on but because it might happen that one of us may have the honor of commanding a regiment or a company in the troops

that are to compose your army to the end we may not be entirely ignorant of the military art pray tell us by what he began to instruct you by what he ended answered the young man for he showed me only the orders that ought to be observed in an army either in marching and camping or fighting but what is that said socrates in comparison of the many other duties incumbent on a general he must besides take care for the preparations of war he must furnish the soldiers with necessary ammunition and provisions he must be inventive

laborious diligent patient quick of apprehension he must be mild and rigorous together he must be open and close he must know to preserve his own and take what is another's he must be prodigious and a ravager he must be liberal on covetous he must be very and yet enterprising i confess that he ought to know likewise how to draw up his troops in order of battle and indeed order and discipline are the most important things in an army and without them it is impossible to have any other service of the troops than of a confused

heap of stones bricks timber and tiles but when everything is in its new place as in a building when the foundations and the covering are made of materials that will not grow rotten and which no wet can damage such as our stones and tiles and when the bricks and timber are employed in their due places in the body of the edifice they all together make a house which we value among our most considerable enjoyments here's the young man interrupting him said this comparison puts me in mind of another thing that generals ought to observe which

is to place their best soldiers in the first and last ranks and the others in the middle that those in the first rank may draw them on and those in the last push them forward he has taught you too said socrates how to know the good and the bad soldiers asunder otherwise this rule can be of no use to you for if you were to reckon money upon a table and were ordered to lay the best at the two ends and the worst in the middle how could you do this if you had not been

shown how to distinguish between the good and the bad replied the young man he did not teach me what you mentioned and i suppose we must learn of ourselves to discern the good soldiers from the bad if you please continued secretives let us consider how a general ought to govern himself in this matter if we dare to take any money ought he not to make the most covetous march in the front if it were an action of great peril or he not to send the most ambitious because they are the men who out of a

desire of glory rush into the midst of dangers and as for them you would not be much troubled to know them for they are forward enough in discovering themselves but tell me when this master showed you the different ways of ordering an army did he teach you when to make use of one way and one of another not at all answered him and yet replied socrates the same order is not always to be observed nor the same commands given but to be changed according to the different occasions he taught me nothing of that said the

young man go to him then added socrates and ask him concerning it for if he know anything of the matter and have ever so little honor he will be ashamed to have taken your money and send you away so ill-instructed end of section 18. section 19 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward b she book 3 chapter 2 the character of a good prince

another time he asked the general whom the athenians had lately chosen why homer calls agamemnon the pastor of the people is it not said he because as a shepherd ought to take care of his flocks that they be well and one for nothing so a general ought to take care to keep his soldiers always in a good condition to see they be supplied with provisions and to bring to a happy issue the design that made them take arms which is to overcome their enemies and to live more happily afterwards and why does the same poet

praise agamemnon likewise for being at once a gracious prince and generous warrior for is it not true that to gain a prince the character of being generous and a warrior too it is not sufficient to be brave in his own person and to fight with intrepidity but he must likewise animate the whole army and be the cause that every soldier behave himself like him and to gain the reputation of a good and gracious prince it is not enough to have secured his private affairs he must also take care that plenty and happiness be seen in

all places of his dominions for kings are not chosen to take care of themselves only but to render happy the people who choose them all people engage in war only to secure their own quiet and choose commanders that they may have guides to conduct them to the end which they proposed to themselves a general therefore ought to prepare the way of good fortune to those who raise him to that dignity this is the most glorious success he can desire as nothing can be more ignominious to him than do the contrary we see by this discourse

that socrates designing to give the idea of good prince required scarce anything of him but to render his subjects happy end of section 19. section 20 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by rick vena the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 3 chapter 3 on the business of a general of horse socrates at another time as i well remember had the following conference with a general of

the cavalry what was your reason said socrates to desire this office i cannot think it was that you might march first at the head of the troops for the horse archers are to march before you nor can i believe it was to make yourself be known for no men are more generally known than mad men perhaps it was because you thought you could mend what was amiss in the cavalry and make the troops better than they are to the end that if the republic should have occasion to use them you might be able to do

your country some eminent service that is my design answered the other it were well you could do this said socrates but does not your office oblige you to have an eye on the horses and troopers most certainly what course will you then take continued socrates to get good horses it is not my business to look to that replied the general every trooper must take care for himself and what said socrates if they bring you horses whose feet and legs are good for nothing or that are so weak and lean that they cannot keep up with

the others or so restive and vicious that it would be impossible to make them keep their ranks what good could you expect from such cavalry what service would you be able to do the state you are much in the right socrates and i promise you i will take care what horses are in my troops and will you not have an eye likewise on the troopers yes answered he in my opinion then answered socrates the first thing you ought to do is to make them learn to get a horse back no doubt of it replied the

general for by that means they would the more easily escape if they should happen to be thrown off their horses socrates went on you ought also to make them exercise sometimes here sometimes there and particularly in places like those where the enemy generally is that they may be good horsemen in all sorts of countries for when you are to fight you will not send to bid the enemy come to you in the plane where you used to exercise your horse you must train them up likewise to lance the spear and if you would make them

very brave fellows you must inspire them with a principle of honor and inflame them with rage against the enemy fear not said he that i will spare my labor but have you resumed socrates thought on the means to make yourself obeyed for without that all your brave troopers will avail you nothing it is true said he but how shall i gain that point of them no you not said socrates that in all things men readily obey those whom they believe most capable thus in our sickness we must willingly submit to the prescriptions of the best

physicians at sea to the most skillful pilot and in affairs of agriculture to him who has most experience in it all this i grant you it is then to be presumed that in the conduct of the cavalry he who makes it appear that he understands it best will be the person whom the others will be best pleased to obey but if i let them see that i am most worthy to command will that be sufficient to make them obey me yes certainly said socrates if you can persuade them besides that their honor and safety depend

on that obedience and how shall i be able to make them sensible of this with less trouble as their socrates than it would be to prove that it is better to be virtuous than vicious then a general added the other ought to study the art of speaking well do you imagine said socrates that he will be able to execute his office without speaking a word it is by speech that we know what the laws command us to learn for the conduct of our lives no excellent knowledge can be attained without the use of speech the

best method to instruct is by discourse and they who are thoroughly versed in the sciences speak with the applause of all the world but have you observed continued he that in all sorts of occasions the athenians distinguish themselves above all the greeks and that no republic can show such youths as that of athens for example when we send from hence a choir of musicians to the temple of apollo in the isle of delos it is certain that none comparable to them are sent from other cities not that the athenians have better voices than the others

nor that their bodies are more robust and better made but the reason is because they are more fond of honor and this desire of honor is what excites men to excellent actions do not you think therefore that if good care were taken of our cavalry it would excel that of other nations in the beauty of arms and horses in order of good discipline and in bravery and fight provided the athenians were persuaded that this would be a means to acquire them glory and renown i am of your opinion go then and take care of your

troops said socrates make them serviceable to you that you may be so to the republic your advice is good said he and i will immediately follow it end of section 20. section 21 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by rick vena the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 3 chapter 4 a discourse of socrates with the nico macadis in which he showeth that a man skillful in

his own proper business and who manages his affairs with prudence and sagacity may make when occasion offers a good general another time socrates meeting nico macadis who was coming from the assembly where they had chosen the magistrates asked him of whom they had made choice to command the army nico macadis answered alas the athenians would not choose me me who have spent all my life in arms and have gone through all the degrees of a soldier who have been first a private sentinel then a captain next a kernel of horse and who am covered all

over with wounds that i had received in battles at these words he bared his breast and showed the large scars which were remaining in several places of his body but they have chosen antisthanes who has never served in the infantry who even in the cavalry never did anything remarkable and whose only talent consists in knowing how to get money so much the better said socrates for then the army will be well paid a merchant replied nico macadis knows how to get money as well as he and does it follow from thence that he is fit

to be a general you take no notice replied socrates that antisthanes is fond of honor and desirous to excel all others in whatever he undertakes which is a very necessary qualification in a general have you not observed that whenever he gave a comedy to the people he always gained the prize there is a wide difference answered nico maccades between commanding an army and giving orders concerning a comedy but said socrates though antisthanes understands not music nor the laws of the stage yet he found out those who were skillful in both and by their means succeeded

extremely well and when he is at the head of the army continued nico maccades i suppose you will have him to find out too some to give orders and some to fight for him why not replied socrates for if in the affairs of war he take the same care to provide himself with persons skillful in that art and fit to advise him as he did in the affair of the plays i see not what should hinder him from gaining the victory and the former as well as in the letter and it is very likely that

he will be better pleased to expand his treasure to obtain an entire victory over the enemy which will redound to the honor and interest of the whole republic than to be at a great expense for shows to overcome his citizens in magnificence and to gain a victory which can be honorable to none but himself and those of his tribe we must then infer said nico macketes that a man who knows well how to give a comedy knows well how to command an army let us rather conclude answered socrates that every man who has judgment enough

to know the things that are necessary for his designs and can procure them can never fail of success whether he concern himself with this stage or govern a state or command an army or manage a family indeed resumed nicomacides i could never have thought you would have told me too that a good economist would make a good general come then said socrates let us examine wherein consists the duty of the one and of the other and see what relation there is between those two conditions must not both of them keep those that are under them

in submission and obedience i grant it must not both of them take care to employ everyone in the business he is fit for must he not punish those who do amiss and reward those that do well must they not make themselves be esteemed by those they command ought they not alike to strengthen themselves with friends to assist them upon occasion ought they not to know how to preserve what belongs to them and to be diligent and indefatigable in the performance of their duty i own answered nicomachitis that all you have said concerns them equally but

if they were to fight it would not be the same as to both of them why said socrates have not both of them enemies they have and would it not be the advantage of both to get the better of them i allow it said nicomacades but what will economy be good for when they are to come to blows it is then it will be most necessary replied socrates for when the good economist sees that the greatest prophet he can get is to overcome and that the greatest loss he can suffer is to be beaten he

will prepare himself with all the advantages that can procure him the victory and will carefully avoid whatever might be the cause of his defeat thus when he sees his army well provided with all things and in a condition that seems to promise a good success he will give his enemies battle but when he wants anything he will avoid coming to an engagement with them thus you see how economy may be of use to him and therefore nico-maggeties despise not those who apply themselves to it for between the conduct of a family and that of a

state the sole difference is that of a greater or lesser number for as to all besides there is much conformity between them the sum of what i have advanced is this that without men there could not be any policy or any economy that they are often executed by the same persons and that they who are called to the government of the republic are the very same whom great men employ for their private affairs lastly that they who make use of proper persons for their several businesses are successful in their economy and in politics and that

on the contrary they who fail in this point commit great faults both in one and the other end of section 21 section 22 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by paul fleishman the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 3 chapter 5 a conversation between socrates and pericles concerning the then present state of the republic of athens in which socrates lays down a method by which the athenians

may recover their ancient luster and reputation socrates one day being in company with pericles the son of the great pericles introduced the following discourse i hope that when you command the army the republic will be more successful and gain more glory in their wars than formerly i should be glad of it answered pericles but i see little likelihood of it we may bring this matter to the test said socrates is it not true that the be oceans are not more numerous than the athenians i know it nor are they either braver or stronger true they

are not do you believe that they agree better among themselves quite the contrary said pericles for there is a great misunderstanding between most of the oceans and the thebans because of the great hardships the latter put upon the former and we have nothing of this among us but the beocians replied socrates are wonderfully ambitious and obliging and these are the qualities that naturally push men on to expose themselves for the sake of glory and of their country the athenians answered pericles come not short of them in either of those qualities it is true replied socrates

that there is no nation whose ancestors have done braver actions and in greater number than those of the athenians and these domestic examples excite us to courage and create in us a true love of virtue and bravery notwithstanding all this continued pericles you see that after the defeat of tomadees at labaria where we lost a thousand men and after another misfortune that happened to hippocrates before deliam the greatness of the athenians is sunk so low and the courage of the beochians so increased that they who even in their own country durst not look the athenians

in the face without the assistance of the lassodemonians and of the other states of the peloponnesus now threaten attica with their single forces and that the athenians who before ravaged piosha when it was not defended by foreign troops begin to fear and their turn that the beyoceans will put attica to fire and sword in my opinion answered socrates a governor ought to be well pleased to find a republic in such a condition for fear makes the people more careful more obedient and more submissive whereas a too great security is attended with carelessness luxury and disobedience

this is plainly seen in men who are at sea when they fear not anything there is nothing in the ship but confusion and disorder but when they apprehend that they shall be attacked by pirates or that a tempest is hanging over their head they not only do whatever they are commanded but even observe a profound silence waiting the order of their captain and are as decent and orderly in their behavior and motions as those who dance at a public entertainment we shall yield then replied pericles that the athenians are obedient but how shall we do

to create in them an emulation to imitate the virtue of their ancestors to equal their reputation and to restore the happiness of their age in this present one if we would have them answered socrates make themselves masters of an estate which is in the possession of others we need only tell them that it is descended to them from their forefathers and they will immediately be for having it again if we would encourage them to take the first rank among the virtuous we must persuade them that it is their due from all antiquity and that if

they will take care to preserve to themselves this advantage they will infallibly likewise surpass others in power we must frequently represent to them that the most ancient of their predecessors were highly esteemed on account of their great virtue you would be understood said pericles to speak of the contention of two of the divinities concerning the patronage of the city of athens of which the citizens in the days of sea crops were chosen arbitrators on account of their virtue you were in the right said socrates but i would have them be put in mind likewise of

the birth and nourishment of erecthias and of the war that was in his time against the neighboring nations as also of that which was made in favor of the descendants of hercules against the people of pelepinesis and in short of all the other wars that were in the days of theseus in which our ancestors were always reputed the most valiant men of their age if you think fit they may likewise be told what the descendants of these ancients and our predecessors of the last age have done they may be represented to them as resisting sometimes

with their own forces only the nations whom all asia obeyed whose dominions extended into europe as far as macedonia and who had inherited a potent empire from their fathers together with formidable forces and who were already renowned for many great exploits sometimes you must relate to them the victories they gained by sea and land in conjunction with the last of the demonians who are likewise reputed a very brave people they should be told also that great commotions being arisen among the greeks and the most part of them having changed their places of abode the athenians

always continued in their country that they have been chosen by several people to arbitrate their differences and that the oppressed have always fled to them for protection when i reflect on all this said pericles i am surprised to see the republic so much fallen off from what it was in my opinion replied socrates she has behaved herself like those persons who for having too great advantage over their rivals begin to neglect themselves and grow in the end pusillanimous for after the athenians saw themselves raised above the other greeks they indulged themselves in indolence and became

at length degenerate what course must they take now said pericles to regain the luster of their ancient virtue they need only call to mind replied socrates what were the exercises and the discipline of their ancestors and if like them they apply themselves to those practices they will no doubt arrive at their perfection or if they will not govern themselves by that example let them imitate the nations that are now uppermost let them observe the same conduct follow the same customs and be assured they will equal if not surpass them if they labor to do so

you seem to be of opinion my dear socrates that virtue is much estranged from our republic and indeed when will the athenians respect old age as they of sparta do since they begin even by their own fathers to deride men advanced in years when too will they use themselves to the manly exercises of that republic since they not only neglect the good disposition and activity of body but laugh at those who endeavor to acquire them when will they be obedient to the magistrates they who make it a glory to despise them when will they be

in perfect unity they who instead of assisting daily prejudice one another and who envy one another more than they do all the rest of mankind they are every day quarreling in the public and private assemblies they are every day suing one another and had rather find their own advantage in the ruin of their neighbors then get an honest gain by reciprocally assisting one another the magistrates mine not the government of the republic any farther than their own interests are concerned and therefore they use their utmost endeavors to be in office and authority and for this

reason in the administration of the state there is so much ignorance and malice and such animosities and so many different parties among private persons and i much fear that this mischief will get such a head that at length there will be no remedy against it and that the republic will sink under the weight of its misfortunes fear it not said socrates and do not believe that the athenians labor under an incurable disease do you not observe how skillful and obedient they are at sea that in the combats for prizes they exactly obey the orders of

those that preside there and in the comedies how readily they comply with what they are bid to do i see it well answered pericles and cannot but wonder that they are so ready to obey in these and the like occasions and that the military men who ought to be the chosen part of the citizens are so mutinous and refractory and what say you pursued socrates to the senate of the areopagus are they not all of them persons of great worth do you know any judges who discharge their office with more integrity and who more exactly

observe the laws who more faithfully render justice to private men and who more worthily acquit themselves of all manner of affairs i blame them not said pericles despair not then of the athenians added socrates as of an untractable people but it is in war replied pericles that much discipline is required and much modesty and obedience and these things the athenians wholly want in that occasion perhaps two continued socrates they who command them know little of their own duty do you not take notice that no man undertakes to govern a company of musicians or of comedians

or of dancers or of wrestlers unless he be capable of it and that all who take such employments upon them can give an account where they have learnt the exercises of which they are become masters our misfortunes in war then i very much apprehend must be owing in a great measure to the bad education of our generals i know very well that you are not of this number and that you have improved to your advantage the time you have spent in learning the art of war and other laudable exercises i imagine likewise that in the

memoirs of your father the great pericles you have found many rare stratagems and that by your diligence you have also collected up and down a great number of others nor do i doubt but that you frequently meditate on these matters that nothing may be wanting in you that may be of use to a general insomuch that if you find yourself in doubt of anything you immediately have recourse to those that know it and spare neither presence nor civilities to incline them to assist you and to teach you the things of which you are ignorant alas

socrates said pericles you flatter me and flatter me for many things that i am afraid i am deficient in but by that you instruct me in my duty upon this socrates interrupting him i will said he give you an advice have you not observed that in the high mountains which are the frontiers of vatica and defied it from bioshia the roads through which you must of necessity pass to go from one country to the other are very rough and narrow yes i have tell me besides have you never heard say that the myceans and the

pasitians who are in possession of advantageous places where they dwell in the dominions of the king of persia arm themselves lightly and make continual inroads upon the neighboring provinces and by that means are very troublesome to that king's subjects and preserve their own liberty i have heard so it is probable too continued socrates that if the athenians would possess themselves of the mountains that are between biosha and attica and if they took care to send there some young men with arms proper for in-roaders our enemies would be much prejudiced by them and all those mountains

would be as a great rampart to cover our country from their insults i believe what you say answered pericles and take all the advices you have given me to be very good if you think them so replied socrates endeavor my friend to put them in practice for if any of them succeed you will receive the honor and the republic the prophet and even though they should not meet with success the republic would have no inconvenience to apprehend nor you the least dishonor end of section 22 section 23 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon

this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit libravox.org the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 3 chapter 6. socrates dissuades glaucon a very forward youth from taking upon him the government of the republic for which he was unfit a young man whose name was glockhorn the son of ariston had so fixed it in his head to govern the republic that before he was 20 years of age he frequently presented himself before the people to discourse of affairs of

state nor was it in the power of his relations or friends to dissuade him from that design though all the world laughed at him for it and though sometimes he was dragged from the tribunal by force socrates had a kindness for him on account of plato and charmadus and he only it was who made him change his resolution he met him and accosted him in so when in a manner that he first obliged him to hearken to his discourse he began with him thus you have a mind then to govern the republic my friend i

have so answered glaucon you cannot replied socrates have a more noble design for if you can accomplish it you will be absolute you will be able to serve your friends you will raise your family you will extend the bounds of your country you will be known not only in athens but through all greece and perhaps your renown will fly even to the barbarous nations as did that of thomastocles in short wherever you come you will be respected and admired these words soothed up glock on and warned him to give ear to socrates who went on

in this manner but it is certain my dear friend that if you desire to be honored you must be useful to the state certainly said glaucon i conjure you then to tell me replied socrates what is the first service that you desire to render the state glaucon was considering what to answer when socrates continued if you intended to make the fortune of one of your friends you would endeavor to make him rich and thus perhaps you will make it your business to enrich the republic i would answer glaucon would not the way to enrich the

republic replied socrates be to increase its revenue it is very likely it would said glaucon tell me then in what consists the revenue of the state and to how much it may amount i presume you have particularly studied this matter to the end that if anything should be lost on one hand you might know where to make it good on another and that if a fund should fail on a sudden you might immediately be able to settle another in its place i protest answered glaucon i have never thought of this tell me at least the

expenses of the republic for no doubt you intend to retrench the superfluous i never thought of this neither said glockhorn you had best then put off to another time your design of enriching the republic which you can never be able to do while you are ignorant both of its expense and revenue there is another way to enrich the state said glaucon of which you take no notice and that is by the rune of its enemies you are in the right answered socrates but to this end it is necessary to be stronger than they otherwise we

should run the hazard of losing what we have he therefore who talks of undertaking a war ought to know the strength on both sides to the end that if his party be the stronger he may boldly advise for war and that if it be the weaker he may dissuade the people from engaging themselves in so dangerous and enterprise all this is true tell me then continued socrates how strong our forces are by sea and the land and how strong are our enemies indeed said glockon i cannot tell you that on a sudden if you have

a list of them in writing pray show it me i should be glad to hear it read i never took a list of them i see then said socrates that we shall not engage in war so soon for it is like that the greatest of the undertaking will hinder you from maturely weighing all the consequences of it in the beginning of your government but continued he you have thought of the defense of the country you know what garrisons are necessary and what are not you know what number of troops is sufficient in one garrison and

not sufficient in another you will cause the necessary garrisons to be reinforced and will disband those that are useless i should be of opinion said glaucon to leave none of them on foot because they ruin a country on pretending to defend it but socrates objected if all the garrisons were taken away there would be nothing to hinder the first comer from carrying off what he pleased but how come you to know that the garrisons behave themselves so ill have you been upon the place have you seen them not at all but i suspect it to

be so when therefore we are certain of it said socrates and can speak upon better grounds than simple conjectures we will propose this advice to the senate it will be very proper to do so said glaucon it comes into my mind to continued socrates that you have never been at the minds of silver to examine why they bring not in so much now as they did formerly you say true i have never been there indeed they say the place is very unhealthy and that may excuse you you rally me now said glaucon socrates added but

i believe you have at least observed how much current our lands produce how long it will serve to supply our city and how much more we shall want for the whole year to the end you may not be surprised with the scarcity of bread but may give timely orders for the necessary provisions there is a deal to do said glaucon if we must take care of all these things there is so replied socrates and it is even impossible to manage our own families well unless we know all that is wanting and take care to provide

it as you see therefore that our city is composed of above 10 000 families and it being a difficult task to watch over them all at once why did you not first try to retrieve your uncle's affairs which are running to decay that after having given a proof of your care faithfulness and capacity in that smaller trust you might have taken upon you a greater but now when you find yourself incapable of aiding a private man how can you think of behaving yourself so as to be useful to a whole people out a man who

has not strength enough to carry a hundred pound weight undertake to carry a burden that is much heavier i would have done good service to my uncle said glaucon if he would have taken my advice how replied socrates have you hitherto been unable to govern your uncle who is but one person and you imagine when you have failed in that to govern the whole athenians whose minds are so fickle and inconstant take heed my dear glaucon take heed lest a too great desire of glory should render you despised consider how dangerous it is to speak

and employ ourselves about things we do not understand what a figure do those forward and rash people make in the world to do so and you yourself may judge whether they acquire more esteem than blame whether they are more admired than condemned think on the contrary with how much honor a man is regarded who understands perfectly what he says and what he does and then you will confess that renown and applause have always been the recompense of true merit and shame the reward of ignorance and temerity if therefore you would be honored endeavor to be

a man of true merit for if you enter upon the government of the republic with the mind more sagacious than usual i shall not wonder if you succeed in all your designs end of section 23 section 24 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by darren beckham topeka kansas the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 3 chapter 7. socrates persuaded carmitas a person of merit in great capacity

but very modest and diffident of himself to undertake the government of the republic as socrates who was ever watchful for the interests of his country and consulted to the good of everyone with whom he conversed took care on the one hand to dissuade persons who had no capacity for it however bent they were upon the thing from entering upon any offices of trust so he was ever mindful on the other to persuade those that were bashful and diffident to take upon themselves the government of the republic provided he knew they had proper talents and abilities

for it in confirmation whereof we shall hear relate a conversation of his with carmitas the son of glaucon socrates who knew him to be a man of sense and merit and more capable to govern the republic than any that were in that post but with all a person very diffident of himself one that had dreaded the people and was mightily averse from engaging himself in public business addressed himself to him in this manner tell me carmedis if you knew any man who could gain the prizes in the public games and by that means render himself

illustrious and acquire glory to his country what would you say of him if he refused to offer himself to the combat i would say answered carmitas that he was a mean-spirited effeminate fellow and if a man were capable of governing a republic of increasing its power by his advices and of raising himself by this means to a high degree of honor would you not brand him likewise with meanness of soul if he would not present himself to be employed perhaps i might said carmitas but why do you ask me this question because you are capable

replied socrates of managing the affairs of the republic and yet you avoid doing so though in the quality of a citizen you're obliged to take care of the commonwealth and wherein have you observed this capacity in me when i have seen you in conversation with the ministers of state answered socrates for if they impart any affairs to you i see you give them good advice and when they commit any errors you make them judicious or monstrances but there's a very great difference my dear socrates replied carmita's between discoursing in private and contending in a public

manner before the people and yet replied socrates a skillful arithmetician can calculate as well in presence of several persons as when alone and they who can play well upon the loot in their closets play likewise well in company but you know said carmitas the fear and shame which are so natural to man affect us more in public assemblies than in private companies is it possible said socrates that you can converse so unconcernedly with men of parts and authority and that you should not have assurance enough to speak to fools are you afraid to present yourself

before dyers shoemakers masons smiths laborers and brokers for of such are compose the popular assemblies this is the same thing to be the most expert in a fencing school and to fear the thrust of an unskillful person who never handled a foil thus you those you speak boldly in the presence of chief men of the republic among whom there are might perhaps be found some who despise you dare not nevertheless speak in the presence of an illiterate multitude who know nothing of the affairs of state and who are not capable of despising you and you

fear to be laughed at by them do they not usually said carmitas laugh at those who speak best so likewise said socrates do the men of quality with whom you converts every day and i am surprised that you have eloquent and persuasive sense sufficient to bring these to reason and that you think not yourself capable even to approach the others learn to know yourself better carmitas and take care not to fall into a fault that is almost general for all men inquire curiously enough into the affairs of others but they never enter into their own

bosoms to examine themselves as they ought be no longer then thus negligent in this manner consider yourself with more attention and let not slip the occasions of serving the republic and of rendering it if possible more flourishing than it is this will be a blessing whose influence will descend not only on the other citizens but on your best friends and yourself end of section 24 recording by darren beckham topeka kansas section 25 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information

or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by darren beckham in topeka kansas the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 3 chapter eight socrates disputes with aristippus concerning the good and beautiful one day aristippus proposed a captious question to socrates meaning to surprise him and this by the way of revenge for his having before put him to a stand but socrates answered him warily and as a person who has no other design in his conversations than to the improvement of his hearers the question which aristippus asked him was whether he knew

in the world any good thing and if socrates had answered him that meat or drink or riches or health or strength or courage are good things he would forthwith have shown him that it may happen that they are very bad he therefore gave him such an answer as he ought and because he knew very well that when we feel any indisposition we earnestly desire to find a remedy for it he said to him do you ask me for example whether i know anything that is good for a fever no said aristippus or for sore eyes

said socrates neither do you mean anything that is good against hunger not at least answered eris tippus i promise you said socrates that if you ask me for a good thing that is good for nothing i know no such thing nor have anything to do with it aristip his pristine yet further and asked him whether he knew any beautiful thing i know great many said socrates are they all like one another continued aristippus not in the least answered socrates for they are very different from one another and how is it possible that two beautiful things

should be contrary one to the other this said socrates is seen every day in men a beautiful make and disposition of body for running is very different from a beautiful make and disposition for wrestling the excellence and beauty of a buckler is to cover well him that wears it on the contrary the excellence and beauty of a dart is to be light and piercing you answer me said aristippus as you answered me before when i asked you whether you knew any good thing and do you think replied socrates that the good and the beautiful are

different know you not that the things that are beautiful are good likewise in the same sense it would be false to say a virtue that in certain occasions it is beautiful and in others good when we speak of man of honor we join the two qualities and call them excellent and good embodies beauty and goodness relate always to the same end in a word all things that are of any use in the world are esteemed beautiful and good with regard to the subject for which they are proper at this rate you might find beauty in

a basket to carry dung said aristippus yes if it be well made for that use answered socrates and on the contrary i would say that a buckler of gold was ugly if it was ill-made would you say pursued aristippus that the same thing may be beautiful and ugly at once i would say that it might be good and bad often what is good for hunger is bad for a fever and what is good for a fever is very bad for hunger often what is beautiful to be done in running is ugly to be done in

wrestling and what is beautiful to do in wrestling is ugly and running for all things are reputed beautiful and good when they are compared with those which they suit or become as they are esteemed ugly and bad when compared with those they do not become thus we see that when socrates said that beautiful houses were the most convenient he taught plainly enough in what manner we ought to build them and he reasoned thus ought not he who builds a house to study chiefly how to make it most pleasant and most convenient this proposition being granted

he pursued is it not a pleasure to have a house that is cool in summer and warm in winter does not this happen in buildings that front towards the south for the beams of the sun enter into the apartment in winter and only pass over the covering in summer for this reason the houses that front towards the south ought to be very high that they may receive the sun in winter and on the contrary those that front toward the north ought to be very low that they may be less exposed to the cold winds of

that quarter in short he used to say that he had a very beautiful and very agreeable house who could live there with ease during all the seasons of the year and keep in safety all that he has but that for painting and other ornaments there was more trouble in them than pleasure he said further that retired places such as could be seen from afar were very proper to erect altars and build temples in for though we are at a distance from them yet it is a satisfaction to pray in sight of the holy places and

as they are apart from the hans of men innocent souls find more devotion in approaching them end of section 25 recording by darren beckham in topeka kansas section 26 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are on the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by darren beckham in topeka kansas the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 3 chapter 9 socrates returns suitable answers to a variety of questions proposed to him another time being asked whether courage

can be learnt as an art or was a gift of nature he answered in my opinion as we see many bodies that are naturally more vigorous than others and that better endure fatigue so that there are some souls that are naturally more brave and look dangerous in the face with greater resolution for i see some men who live under the same laws who are brought up in the same customs and who are not equally valiant nevertheless i believe that education and exercise add much to natural courage whence comes to pass the the scythians and the

thracians durst not face the lesser demonians with pikes and targets and on the contrary that the lysodemonians would not fight against the thracians with shields and darts nor against the scythians with bows i see it to be the same in all other things and that when some men are better inclined by nature for certain things than other men are they very much advance and perfect themselves in those things by study and diligence this shows that they who are most favored by nature as well as those to whom she has been less indulgent ought to apply

themselves assiduously to the things by which they would gain themselves a reputation he allowed no difference between knowledge and temperance had he held that he who knows what is good and embraces it who knows what is bad and avoids it is learned and temperate and when he was asked whether he believed that they who know very well what ought to be done but do quite otherwise were learned and temperate on the contrary said he they are very ignorant and very stupid for in my opinion every man who in the great number of possible things that

offer themselves to him can discern what is most advantageous for him to do never fails to do it but all who govern not themselves well and as they ought are neither learned nor men of good morals he said likewise that justice and every other virtue is only a science because all the actions of justice and of the other virtues are good and honorable and that all who know the beauty of these actions think nothing more charming as on the contrary they who are ignorant of them cannot perform any one virtuous action or if they attempted

to do it are sure to perform it in a wrong manner so that the persons only who possess this science can do just and good things but all just and good actions are done by the means of virtue therefore justice and virtue is only a science he said moreover that folly is contrary to knowledge and yet he did not allow ignorance to be a folly but that not to know oneself or to imagine one knows what he does not know is a weakness next to folly for he observed that among the vulgar a man is

not accused of folly for being mistaken in things that are unknown to most of the world but for mistaking in things which no man mistakes that knows anything at all as if any man should think himself so tall as to be obliged to stoop when he came in at the gates of the city or if he thought himself so strong as to undertake to carry away whole houses on his back or to do any other thing visibly impossible the people would say that he had lost his wits which they do not say of those who

commit only some slight extravagances and as they give the name of love to the violent affection only so they give the name of folly only to an extraordinary disorder of the mind reflecting on the nature of envy he said that it is a certain grief of mind which precedes not from the misfortune of friends or good fortune of enemies but which is very surprising only the prosperity of friends four said he those who may be truly said to be envious who cannot endure to see their friends happy but some wondering whether it were possible for

a man to be grieved at the good fortune of his friends he justified the truth of what he had advanced by telling them plainly that there are some men so variously affected towards their friends that while they are in calamity in distress they will compassionate and sucker them but when they are well and then prosperity will fret at and envy them but this he said is a fault from which wise and good men are free and never to be found but in weak and wicked minds as to idleness he said that he had observed that

most men were always in action for they who play at dice or who serve to make others laugh are doing something but in effect they are idle because they might employ themselves more usefully to which he added that no man finds leisure to quit a good employment for an ill one and that if he did he would deserve the greater blame and that he wanted not something to do before he said likewise that the scepter makes not the king and that princes and governors are not they whom chance or choice of the people has raised

to those dignities nor those who have established themselves in them by fraud or force but they who know how to command for if it were allowed that it is the duty of a prince to command as it is the duty of a subject to obey he showed in consequence of it that in a ship where there are several persons the honor of commanding it is given to him who is most capable of it that all who obey him without accepting even the owner of the vessel that likewise in husbandry he to whom the land belongs

obeys his own servants if they understand agriculture better than himself that thus the sick obey the physicians and they who learn exercises their masters nay that even women are masters of the men and working with the needle because they understand it better than they in short that in all things which require care and industry men govern themselves when they think they are capable of doing so otherwise they leave themselves to the conduct of such as they judge to have more capacity and to take care to have them near at hand for that purpose and if

any man made him this objection that a tyrant is at liberty not to believe the best advices he answered why do you say he is at liberty not to do so seeing he will bear the smart of it for every man who shuts his ears to good counsel commits a fault and this fault is always attended with some damage and if it was said that a tyrant is permitted to put to death the men of the best parts and understanding in his state he replied again do you think he is not punished in losing his

chief supports or that he will be quit for a slight punishment is it to govern in this manner the way to preserve himself or rather is it not the certain means to hasten his own ruin being asked what was the best study for a man to apply himself to he answered to do well and being asked further whether good fortune was the effect of study on the contrary said he i think good fortune and study to be two opposite things for what i call good fortune is when a man meets with what is necessary for

him without the trouble of seeking it but when he meets with any good success after a tedious search and labor it is the effect of study this is what i call to do well and i think that all who take delight in this study are for the most part successful and gain the esteem of men and the affection of the deity such are they as have rendered themselves excellent in economy in physic and in politics but he who knows not any one thing perfectly is neither useful to men nor beloved by the gods end of

section 26 recording by darren beckham in topeka kansas section 27 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 3 chapter 10 socrates in conversation with several artificers a painter a statueri and an armorer showeth his skill and good taste in the finer arts as socrates studied to be useful in all his conversations so he never happened to be in company even with tradesmen

but he always said something that might be of service to them going once into the shop of the painter perassius he entertained himself with him in the following manner is not painting said he a representation of all we see for with a few colors you represent on a canvas mountains and caverns light and obscurity you cause to be observed the difference between the soft things and hard between things smooth and rough you give youth and old age to bodies and when you would represent a perfect beauty it being impossible to find a body but what

has some defect your way is to record several and taking what is beautiful from each of them you make one that is accomplished in all its parts we do so said parasus can you represent likewise said socrates what is most charming and most lovely in the person i mean the inclination how thank you answered parasias we can paint what cannot be expressed by any proportion nor with any color and that has nothing in common with any of those things you mentioned and which the pencil can imitate in a word a thing that cannot be seen

do not the very looks of men replied socrates confess either hatred or friendship in my opinion they do said parasias you can then make hatred and friendship appear in the eyes i own we can do you think likewise continued socrates that they who concerned themselves either in the adversity or prosperity of friends keep the same look with those who are wholly unconcerned for either by no means said he for during the prosperity of our friends our looks are gay and full of joy but in their adversity we look cloudy and dejected this then may be

painted likewise it may besides said socrates magnificence generosity meanness of mind cowardice modesty prudence insolence rusticity all appear in the looks of a man whether sitting or standing you say true and cannot the pencil imitate all this likewise it may and in which do you take most pleasure said socrates in regarding the picture of a man whose external appearance discovereth a good natural disposition and bespeaks an honest man or of one who wears in his face the marks of a vicious inclination there is no comparison between them said parasias another time talking with cleto the

sculptor he said to him i wonder not that you make so great a difference between the statue of a man who is running a race and that of one who stands his ground to wait for his antagonist with whom he is to wrestle or to box or to play a prize at all sorts of defense but what ravishes the beholders is that your statues seem to be alive i would feign know by what art you imprint upon them this wonderful vivacity cleto surprised at this question stood considering what to answer when socrates went on perhaps

you take great care to make them resemble the living persons and this is the reason that they seem to live likewise it is so said cleto you must then replied socrates observe very exactly in the different postures of the body what are the natural dispositions of all the parts for when some of them stoop down the others raise themselves up when some are contracted the others stretch themselves out when some are stiff with straining others relax themselves and when you imitate all this you make your statues approach very near the life you say true said

clito is it not true likewise replied socrates that it is a great satisfaction to beholders to see all the passions of a man who is in action well expressed thus in the statue of a gladiator who is fighting you must imitate the sternness of luck with which he threatens his enemy on the contrary you must give him one victor a look of gaiety and content there is no doubt of what you say we may then conclude said socrates that it is the part of an excellent stature to express the various affections and passions of the

soul by representing such and such motions and postures of the body as are commonly exerted in real life whenever the mind is so and so affected another time socrates being in the shop of pestilence the armorer who showed him some courselets that were very well made i admire said socrates to him the invention of these arms that cover the body in the places where it has most need of being defended and nevertheless are no hindrance to the motions of the hands and arms but tell me why you sell the suits of armor you make dearer

than the other workmen of the city since they are not stronger nor of better tempered or more valuable medal i sell them dearer than others answered pisteus because they are better made than theirs in what does this make consist said socrates in the weight or in the largeness of the arms and yet you make them not all of the same weight nor of the same size but to fit every man they must be fit said pistius otherwise they would be of no use but do you not know replied socrates that some bodies are well shaped

and other is not i know it well how then continued socrates can you make a well-shaped suit of armor for an l-shaped body it will be sufficient if they are fit for him answered pisteus for what is fit is well made you are of the opinion then added socrates that one cannot judge whether a thing be well made considering it merely in itself but in regard to the person who is to use it as if you said that a buckler is well made for him who it fits and in like manner of a suit of

clothes and any other thing whatsoever but i think there is another convenience of having a suit of armor well made what do you take that to be said pistius i think answered socrates a suit of armor that is well made does not load the bearer so much as one ill-made even though it weigh as much for ill-made arms by pressing too much upon the shoulders or hanging cumbers on some other part become almost insupportable and greatly incommode the person that weareth them but those arms which as they ought distribute an equal weight to all the

parts of the body that join upon the neck the shoulders the breasts the back and the hips may be said to be glued to the body and to weigh nothing at all for this said pestius i value the arms i make it is true that some choose rather to part with their money for arms that are guilds and finally carved but if with all this they fit not easy upon them i think they buy a rich inconveniency socrates went on but since the body is not always in the same posture but sometimes bends and sometimes

raises itself straight how can arms that are very fit be convenient and easy they never can said pisteus your opinion therefore is said socrates that the best arms are not those that are most fit and fit closest to the body but those that do not incommode the person that wears them you too are of the same opinion replied pisteus and you understand the matter all right end of section 27 section 28 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is the librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or

to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by phil schaff the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 3 chapter 11 this course of socrates with theodota an athenian lady of no good character wherein he endeavoreth in the most artful and engaging manner to win her over from the criminal pleasures to which she was addicted unto the sublimer and more innocent delights of philosophy and virtue there was at athens a very beautiful lady called theodota who had the character of a loose dame some person was speaking of her in the presence of socrates

and saying that she was the most beautiful woman in the whole world that all the painters went to see her to draw her picture and that they were very well received at her house i think said socrates we ought to go see her too for we shall be better able to judge of her beauty after we have seen her ourselves than upon the bare relation of others the person who began the discourse encouraged the matter and that very moment they all went to theodota's house they found her with a painter who was drawing her picture

and having considered her at leisure when the painter had done socrates began thus do you think that we are more obliged to theodota for having afforded us the sight of her beauty than she is to us for coming to see her if all the advantage be on her side it must be owned that she is obliged to us if it be on ours it must be confessed that we are so to her some of the company saying there was reason to think so socrates continued in these words has she not already had the advantage of

receiving the praises we have given her but it will be yet a much greater to her when we make known her merit in all the companies we come into but as for ourselves what do we carry from hence accept a desire to enjoy the things we have seen we go hence with souls full of love and uneasiness and from this time forward we must obey theodota in all she pleases to enjoin us if it be so said theodota i must return you many thanks for coming hither meanwhile socrates took notice that she was magnificently appareled

and that her mother appeared likewise like a woman of condition he saw a great number of women attendance elegantly dressed and that the whole house was richly furnished he took occasion from hence to inform himself of her circumstances in the world and to ask her whether she had an estate in land or houses in the city or slaves whose labor supplied the expenses of her family i have nothing she answered of all this my friends are my revenue i subsist by their liberality upon which socrates remarked that friendship was one of the greatest blessings in

life for that a good friend could stand one instead of all possessions whatever and he advised theodota to try all her art to procure to herself some lovers and friends that might render her happy the lady asking socrates whether there were any artifices to be used for that purpose he answered there were and proceeded to mention several some for attracting the regard of the men some for insinuating into their hearts others for securing their affections and managing their passions were upon theodota whose soul thenly opened to any impression mistaking the virtuous design of socrates in

the whole of this discourse for an intention of another sort cried out in raptures ah socrates why will not you help me to friends i will replied socrates if you can persuade me to do so and what means must i use to persuade you you must invent the means said socrates if you want me to serve you then come to see me often added theodora socrates laughed at the simplicity of the woman and in railry said to her i have not leisure enough to come and see you i have both public and private affairs which

take up too much of my time besides i have mistresses who will not suffer me to be from them neither day nor night and who against myself make use of the very charms and sorceries that i have taught them and have you any knowledge in those things too said she why do apollodorus and antisthenes answered socrates never leave me why do sebbies and cineus forsake thebes for my company this they would not do if i were not master of some charm lended me said theodota that i may employ it against you and charm you to

come to me no said socrates but i will charm you and make you come to me i will said theodota if you will promise to make me welcome i promise you i will answered socrates provided there be nobody with me whom i love better than you end of section 28. section 29 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by darren beckham topeka kansas the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward

bish book 3 chapter 12 of the necessity of exercise to health and strength of body among others who frequented socrates there was a young man whose name was epigenese and who is very awkward in his person and behavior and had contracted an ill habit of body having never learnt nor used any exercise socrates reproached him for it and told him that it was unworthy of any man to be so negligent of himself epigenese slightly answered that he was under no obligation to do better you are no less obliged to it replied socrates than they who

trained themselves for the olympic games for do you believe that to fight for one's life against the enemies of the republic which are all obliged to do when the athenians please to command us is a less important occasion than to contend with the antagonists for a prize how many men are there who for want of strength perish in fights or have recourse to dishonorable means to seek their safety some are taken prisoners and remain in slavery all the rest of their days or are forced to pay so great a ransom as makes them live poor

and miserable ever afterwards others are ill thought of and their weakness is imputed to cowardice and do you value so little all these misfortunes which constantly attend an ill habit of body and do they seem to use so slight in my opinion there are no fatigues in the exercise but what are more easy and more agreeable but perhaps you despise the advantages of good disposition of body nevertheless they are considerable for men that condition enjoy a perfect health they are robust and active they come off from combats with honor they escape from dangers they sucker

their friends they render great service to their country for these reasons they are well received wherever they come they are in good reputation with all men they attain to the highest offices they live the more honorably and the more at ease and they leave their posterity the most noble examples if therefore you do not practice the military exercise in public you ought not to neglect the doing so in private but to apply yourself to them with all possible diligence to have the body active and healthy can be hurtful to you in no occasion and since

we cannot do anything without the body it is certain that a good constitution will be of great advantage to us in all our undertakings even in study where there seems to be the least need of it we know many persons who could never make any great progress for want of health forgetfulness melancholy loss of appetite and folly are the disease that generally proceed from the indisposition of the body and these diseases sometimes seize the bind with so great violence that they wipe out even the least remembrance of what we knew before but in health we

have nothing like this to fear but in health you have nothing like this to fear and consequently there is no toil which a judicious man would not willingly undergo to avoid all these misfortunes and indeed it is shameful for a man to grow old before he has tried his own strength and to see to what degree of dexterity and perfection he can attain which he can never know if he give himself over for useless because dexterity and strength come not from themselves but by practice and exercise end of section 29 recorded by darren beckham to

pika kansas section 30 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by shibe the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward beisch book 3 chapter 13 several apotheogems of socrates a certain man being vexed that he had saluted one who did not return his civility socrates said to him it is ridiculous in you to be unconcerned when you meet a sick man in the way and to be vexed for having met

a rude fellow 2. another was saying that he had lost his appetite and could eat nothing socrates having heard it told him he could teach him a remedy for that the man asking what it was fast said he for some time and i will warrant you will be in better health spend less money and eat with more satisfaction afterwards three another complained that the water which came into the cistern was warm and nevertheless he was forced to drink it you ought to be glad of it said socrates for it is a bath ready for you

whenever you have a mind to bathe yourself it is too cold to bathe in replied the other do your servants said socrates find any inconvenience in drinking it or in bathing in it no but i wonder how they can suffer it is it continued socrates warmer to drink than that of the temple of asclepius it is not near so warm you see then said socrates that you are harder to please than your own servants or even than the sick themselves 4. a master having beaten his servant most cruelly socrates asked him why he was so

angry with him the master answered because he is a drunkard a lazy fellow who loves money and is always idle suppose he be so said socrates but be your own judge and tell me which of you too deserves rather to be punished for those faults five another made a difficulty of undertaking a journey to olympia what is the reason said socrates to him that you are so much afraid of walking you who walk up and down about your house almost all day long you ought to look upon this journey to be only a walk and

to think that you will walk away the morning till dinner time in the afternoon till supper and thus you will insensibly find yourself at your journey's end for it is certain that in five or six days time you go more ground in walking up and down than you need to do in going from athens to olympia i will tell you one thing more it is much better to set out a day too soon than a day too late for it is troublesome to be forced to go long journeys and on the contrary it is a

great ease to have the advantage of a day beforehand you were better therefore to hasten your departure than be obliged to make haste upon the road six another telling him that he had been a great journey and was extremely weary socrates asked whether he had carried anything the other answered that he had carried nothing but his cloak were you alone said socrates no i had a slave with me was not he loaded continued socrates yes for he carried all my things and how did he find himself upon the road much better than i and if

you had been to carry what he did what would have become of you alas said he i should never have been able to have done it is it not a shame added socrates and a man like you who have gone through all the exercises not to be able to undergo as much fatigue as a slave end of section 30 recording by scheib section 31 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by shibe

the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward baiche chapter 14 socrates proposeth some regulations for the better management of their public feasts socrates having observed that in public suppers everyone brought his own dish of meat and that sometimes some brought more and others less was want when this happened to bid a servant set the least dish in the middle of the table and to give some of it to all the company no man could in civility refuse it nor exempt himself from doing the like with his own dish in so much that every

man had a taste of the whole and all faired alike this in some measure banished luxury and expensiveness from these feasts for they who would have had laid out a great deal of money and delicacies cared no longer to do so because they would have been as much for others as for themselves being one day in these assemblies and seeing a young man who ate his meat without bread he took occasion to rally him for it upon a question that was started touching the imposing of names can we give any reasons said he why a

man is called flesh eater that is to say a devourer of flesh for every man eats flesh when he has it and i do not believe it to be upon that account that a man is called so nor i neither said one of the company but continued socrates if a man takes delight to eat his meat without bread do you not take him to be indeed a flesh eater i should think it difficult to find another who better would deserve that name upon which somebody else taking the word said what think you of him who

with a little bread only eats a great deal of flesh i should replied socrates judge him too to be a flesh eater and whereas others ask of the gods in their prayers to give them an abundance of fruits such men in their petitions it is likely would pray only for abundance of flesh the young man whom socrates had in mind suspecting that he spoke upon his account took some bread but continued still to eat a great deal of flesh with it socrates perceived him and showing him with his finger to those that sat next to

him said to them take notice of your neighbor and see whether it be the meat that makes him eat his bread or the bread that makes him eat his meat in a like occasion seeing a man sop the same morsel of meat in several sauces he said is it possible to make a sauce that will cost more and be not so good as one that is made by taking out of several different sauces at once for there being more ingredients than usual no doubt it costs more but then because we mix things together which the

cooks never used to mingle because they agree not well with one another we certainly spoil the whole and is it not a jest to be curious in having good cooks and at the same time to be so fantastical as to alter the relish of the dishes they have dressed besides when we have once got a habit of eating thus of several dishes at once we are not so well satisfied when we have no longer that variety whereas a man who contends himself to eat but of one dish at a time finds no great inconvenience in

having but one dish of meat for his dinner he made likewise this remark that to express what the other greeks called to eat a meal the athenian said to make good cheer and that the word good shows us that we ought to eat such things only as will neither disorder the body nor the mind which are easily had and purchased without great expense from whence he inferred that they alone who live temporarily and soberly can truly be said to make good cheer that is to say to eat well end of section 31 recording by shibe

section 32 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by jeremy sherwood the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book four chapter 1 that persons of good natural parts as well as those who have plentiful fortunes ought not to think themselves above instruction on the contrary the one ought by the aid of learning to improve their genius the other by the acquisition of knowledge to render themselves valuable there was

always as we have already remarked some improvement to be made with socrates and it must be owned that his company and conversation were very edifying since even now when he is no more among us it is still of advantage to his friends to call him to their remembrance and indeed whether he spoke to divert himself or whether he spoke seriously he always let slip some remarkable instructions for the benefit of all that hurt him he used often to say he was in love but it was easy to see it was not with the beauty of

one's person that he was taken but with the virtues of his mind the marks of a good genius he said were these a good judgment a retentive memory and an ardent desire of useful knowledge that is to say when a person readily learns what he has taught and strongly retains what he has learned as also when he is curious to know all that is necessary to the good government either of a family or of a republic in a word when one desires to obtain a thorough knowledge of mankind and of whatever relates to human affairs

and his opinion was that when these good natural parts are cultivated as they ought such men are not only happy themselves and govern their families prudently but are capable likewise to render others happy and to make republics flourish on the one hand therefore whenever he met with any who believed themselves men of parts and for that reason neglected to be instructed he proved to them that men of the best natural parts are they who have most need of instruction and to this purpose he alleged the example of a high mettled horse who having more courage

and more strength than others does us very great service if he be broke and managed in his youth but if that be neglected he grows so vicious and unruly that we know not what to do with him thus also dogs of a good breed and that by nature are the most strong and metalsome are excellent for game if they are well taught otherwise they are apt to become high rangers and at no command in like manner among men they who are blessed with the greatest advantages of nature to whom she has given the most courage

and the greatest strength to enable them to succeed in their undertakings are likewise the most virtuous and do more good than others when they meet with a good education but if they remain without instruction they fall into an excess of ill and become most pernicious to themselves and others merely for want of knowing their duty they often engage themselves in very wicked designs and being imperious and violent it is very difficult to keep them within bounds and to make them change their resolution which is the reason they do a great deal of mischief on the

other hand when he saw any of those men who pique themselves on their estates and who believe because they are men of high condition that they are above instruction or have no need of it because their riches alone are sufficient to gain them the esteem of the world and to make them succeed in all their undertakings he endeavored to convince them of their error and to show them that they too have need of instruction he told them that that man is a fool who imagines with himself that he can know the things that are useful

from those that are hurtful without having ever learned the difference or who not discerning between them fondly thinks that because he has wherewithal to buy whatever he has a mind to he can therefore do whatever may lend to his advantage or who judging himself incapable to do what is useful for himself thinks nevertheless that he is well in the world and in a safe and happy condition of life that it is likewise a folly for a man to persuade himself that being rich and having no merit he will pass for a man of parts or

that not having the reputation of being a man of parts he shall nevertheless be esteemed end of section 32. section 33 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit libravox.org the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 4 chapter 2 conference between socrates and euthymus in which he convinces that young man who had a great opinion of himself that he knew nothing when socrates on the other hand found any who soothed

themselves up in the belief that they are well instructed and to boast of their own sufficiency he never failed to chastise the vanity of such persons of his conduct in this particular i will relate the following instance he had been told that euthymus had bought up several works of the most celebrated poets and sophists and that this acquisition had so puffed him up with arrogance that he already esteemed himself the greatest man for learning and parts of any of the age and pretended to no less than being the first man of the city either for

negotiating or for discoursing in public nevertheless he was still so young that he was not admitted into the assemblies of the people and if he had any affair to solicit he generally came and placed himself in one of the shops that were near the courts of justice secretaries having observed his station failed not to go thither likewise with two or three of his friends and there being fallen into discourse this question was started whether it was by the improving conversation of philosophers or by the strength of his natural parts only that thermostatically surpassed all his

countrymen in wisdom and valor and advanced himself to such a high rank and to sow great esteem that all the republic cast their eyes upon him whenever their affairs required the conduct of a man of bravery and wisdom socrates who had a mind to reflect upon euthymus answered that a man must be very stupid to believe that mechanic arts which are comparatively things but of small importance cannot be learnt without masters and yet that the art of governing of states which is a thing of the greatest moment and that requires the greatest effort of human

prudence comes of itself into the mind and this was all that passed in this first interview after this socrates observing that euphemist always avoided being in his company lest he should be taken for one of his admirers attacked him more openly and once when he happened to be where he was addressed himself to the rest of the company in these words certainly gentlemen by what may be conjectured from the studies of this young man it is very likely that when he shall have attained the age that permits him to be present in the assemblies of

the people if any important affair come to be debated there he will not fail to give his judgment of it and in my opinion he would introduce his arraign by a very pleasant exordium if he should begin by giving them to understand that he had never learned anything of any man whatsoever he must address himself to them in words to this purpose gentlemen i have never been taught anything i never frequented the conversation of men of parts i never gave myself the trouble to look out for a master that was able to instruct me on

the contrary gentlemen i have not only had an aversion to learn from others but i should even have been very sorry to have it believed i had done so nevertheless i will venture to tell you what chants shall suggest to me in this present occasion at this rate they who present themselves to be received physicians might introduce a like discourse as thus gentlemen i have never had any master to teach me this science for indeed i would never learn it nor even have the repute of having learned it nevertheless admit me a physician and i

will endeavor to become learned in the art by making experiments on your own bodies oh the company fellow laughing at this pleasant preface and from that time euthymus never avoided socrates company as he had done before but he never offered to speak believing that his silence would be an argument of his modesty socrates being desirous to rally him out of that mistaken notion spoke to him in this manner i wonder that they who desire to learn to play upon the loot or to ride well do not endeavor to learn it alone by themselves but that

they look out for masters resolved to do everything they bid them and to believe all they say there being no other way to arrive at perfection in those arts and that they who hope one day to govern the republic and to the claim before the people imagine that they become fit to do so of themselves all of a sudden nevertheless it must be owned that these employments are more difficult than the others since among the great number of persons who pushed themselves into office so few discharge their duties as they are this shows us that

more labor and diligence is required in such as would capacitate themselves for those offices than for anything else by these discourses socrates having prepared the mind of euphidimus to hearken to what he intended to say to him and to enter into conference with him he came another time by himself into the same shop and taking a seat next to this young man i have heard said he to him that you have been curious in buying a great many good books i have said euthymus and continue to do so every day designing to have as many

as i can get i commend you very much said socrates for choosing rather to hoard up a treasure of learning and knowledge than of money for you testify by so doing that you are not of opinion that riches or silver and gold can render one more valuable that is to say a wiser or a better man but that it is only the writings and precepts of the philosophers and other fine writers that are the true riches because they enrich with virtue the minds of those that possessed them euthedimus was pleased to hear him say this

believing that he approved his method and socrates perceiving his satisfaction went on but what is your design of making a collection of so many books do you intend to be a physician there are many books in that science that is not my design said euthymus will you be an architect then said socrates for that art requires a learned man or do you study geometry or astrology none of them do you mean to be a reciter of heroic verses continued socrates for i have been told that you have all homer's works not in the least answered

euthymous for i have observed that men of that profession know indeed a great many verses by heart but for anything else they are for the most part very impertinent perhaps you are in love with that noble science that makes politicians and economists and that renders men capable to govern and to be useful to others and to themselves that is what i endeavor to learn said euthymus and what i passionately desire to know it is a sublime science replied socrates it is that we call the royal science because it truly is the science of kings but

have you weighed this point whether a man can excel in that science without being an honest man i have said the young man and am even of opinion that none but honest men can be good citizens and are you an honest man said socrates i hope i am answered euthymus as honest a man as another tell me said socrates can we know who are honest men by what they do as we know what trade a man is of by his work we may then said socrates as architects show us their works can honest men show

us theirs likewise no doubt of it replied euthydimus and it is no difficult task to show which are the works of justice and which those of injustice that we so often hear mentioned shall we said socrates make two characters the one j to signify justice the other eye to denote injustice and write under one of them all the works that belong to justice and under the other all that belong to injustice do said euthymus if you think fit secretes having done what he proposed continued thus his discourse do not man tell lies very often answered

euthymus under which head shall we put lying under that of injustice said euthydimus do men sometimes cheat most certainly where shall we put cheating said socrates under injustice and doing wrong to one's neighbor thereto and selling a free persons into slavery still in the same place and shall we write none of all these said socrates under the head of justice not one of them answered euphidimus it would be strange if we did but what replied socrates when a general plunders an enemy city and makes slaves of all the inhabitants shall we say that he commits

an injustice by no means shall we own then that he does an act of justice without doubt and when he circumvents his enemies in the war does he not do well very well and when he ravages their land and takes away their cattle and their corn does he not do justly it is certain he does said euphidimus and when i answered you that all these actions were unjust i thought you had spoken of them in regard only of friend to friend we must therefore replied socrates put among the actions of justice those very actions we

have ascribed to injustice and we will only establish this distinction that it is just to behave ourselves so towards our enemies but that to treat our friends thus is an injustice because we ought to live with them uprightly and without any deceit i think so said euthymus but continued socrates when a general sees that his troops begin to be disheartened if he make them believe that a great reinforcement is coming to him and by that stratagem inspires fresh courage into the soldiers under what head shall we put this lie under the head of justice answered

euthymus and when a child will not take the physic that he has great need of and his father makes it be given him in a mess of breath and by that means the child recovers his health to which shall we ascribe this deceit to justice likewise and if a man who sees his friend in despair and fears he will kill himself hides his sword from him or takes it out of his hands by force what shall we say of this violence that it is just replied euphidimus observe what you say continued socrates for it follows

from your answers that we are not always obliged to live with our friends uprightly and without any deceit as we agreed we were no certainly we are not and if i may be permitted to retract what i said i changed my opinion very freely it is better said socrates to change an opinion than to persist in a wrong one but there is still one point which we must not pass over without inquiry and this relates to those whose deceits are prejudicial to their friends for i ask you which are most unjust they who with premeditate

design cheat their friends or they who do it through inadvertency indeed said euthymus i know not what to answer nor what to believe for you have so fully refuted what i have said that what appeared to me before in one light appears to me now in another nevertheless i will venture to say that he is the most unjust who deceives his friend deliberately do you think said socrates the one may learn to be just and honest as well as we learn to read and write i think we may which added socrates do you take to

be the most ignorant he who reads wrong on purpose or he who reads wrong because he can read no better the last of them answered euphidimus for the other who mistakes for pleasure need not mistake when he pleases then inferred socrates he who reads wrong deliberately knows how to read but he who reads wrong without design is an ignorant man you say true tell me likewise pursued socrates which knows best what ought to be done and what belongs to justice he who lies and cheats with premeditated design or he who deceives without intention to deceive

it is most plain said euthymus that it is he who deceives with premeditate design but you said replied socrates that he who can read is more learned than he who cannot read i did so therefore he who best knows which are the duties of justice is more just than he that knows them not it seems to be so answered euphidimus and i know not well how i came to say what i did indeed said socrates you often change your opinion and contradict what you say and what would you yourself think of any man who pretended

to tell the truth and yet never said the same thing who in pointing out to you the same road should show you sometimes these sometimes west and who in telling the same some should find more money at one time than another what would you think of such a man he would make all men think answered euthymus that he knew nothing of what he pretended to know socrates urged him yet further and asked him have you ever heard say that some men have abject and servile minds i have is it said of them because they are

learned or because they are ignorant surely because they are ignorant perhaps said socrates it is because they understand not the trade of a smith not in the least for that is it because they know not how to build a house or to make shoes by no means said euphidimus for most who are skilled in such professions have likewise abject and servile minds this character then pursued socrates must be given to those who are ignorant of the noble sciences and who know not what is just nor what is honorable i believe so we ought there for

euthymus to do all we can to avoid falling into that ignominious ignorance that sinks us down so low alas socrates cried he out i will not lie for the matter i thought i knew something in philosophy and that i had learned whatever was requisite to be known by a man who desired to make a practice of virtue but judge how much i am afflicted to see that after all my labors i am not able to answer you concerning things which i ought chiefly to know and yet i am at a loss what method to pursue

in order to render myself more capable and knowing in the things i desire to understand upon this socrates asked him whether he had ever been to delphi and euthydimus answered that he had been there twice did you not take notice said socrates that somewhere on the front of the temple there is this inscription know thyself i remember answered he i have read it there it is not enough replied socrates to have read it have you been the better for this admonition have you given yourself the trouble to consider what you are i think i know

that well enough replied the young man for i should have found it very difficult to have known any other thing if i had not known but for a man to know himself well said socrates it is not enough that he knows his own name for as a man that buys a horse cannot be certain that he knows what he is before he has written him to see whether he be quiet or restive whether he be meddlesome or dull whether he be fleet or heavy in short before he has made trial of all that is good

and bad in him in like manner a man cannot say that he knows himself before he has tried what he is fit for and what he is able to do it is true said euthydimus that whoever knows not his own strength knows not himself but continued socrates who sees not of how great advantage this knowledge is to man and how dangerous it is to be mistaken in this affair for he who knows himself knows likewise what is good for himself he sees what he is able to do and what he is not able to do

by applying himself to things that he can do he gets his bread with pleasure and is happy and by not attempting to do the things he cannot do he avoids the danger of falling into errors and of seeing himself miserable by knowing himself he knows likewise how to judge of others and to make use of their service for his own advantage either to procure himself some good or to protect himself from some misfortune but he who knows not himself and is mistaken in the opinion he has of his own abilities mistakes likewise in the knowledge

of others and in the conduct of his own affairs he is ignorant of what is necessary for him he knows not what he undertakes nor comprehends the means he makes use of and this is the reason that success never attends his enterprises and that he always falls into misfortunes but the man who sees clear into his own designs generally obtains the end he proposes to himself and at the same time gains reputation and honor for this reason even his equals are well pleased to follow his advices and they whose affairs are in disorder implore his

assistance and throw themselves into his hands depending upon his prudence to retrieve their affairs and to restore them to their former good condition but he who undertakes he knows not what generally makes an ill choice and succeeds yet worse and the present damage is not the only punishment he undergoes for his temerity he is disgraced forever all men laugh at him all men despise and speak ill of him consider likewise what happens to republics who mistake their own strength and declare war against states more powerful than themselves some are utterly ruined others lose their liberty

and are compelled to receive laws from the conquerors i am fully satisfied said euthydemus that a great deal depends on the knowledge of oneself i hope you will now tell me by what a man must begin to examine himself you know said socrates what things are good and what are bad indeed answered euphidimus if i knew not that i were the most ignorant of all men then tell me your thoughts on this matter said socrates first said euthedomus i hold that health is a good and sickness and evil and that whatever contributes to either of

them partakes of the same qualities thus nourishment and the exercise that keep the body in health are very good and on the contrary those that cause diseases are hurtful but would it not be better to say replied socrates that health and sickness are both good when they are the cause of any good and that they are both bad when they are the causes of any ill and when can it ever happen said euthymies that health is the cause of any ill and sickness the cause of any good this may happen answered socrates when troops are

raised for any enterprise that proves fatal when men are embarked who are destined to perish at sea for men who are in health may be involved in these misfortunes when they who by reason of their infirmities are left at home will be exempted from the mischiefs in which the others perish you say true said euthymus but you see too that men who are in health are present in fortunate occasions while they who are confined to their beds cannot be there it must therefore be granted said socrates that these things which are sometimes useful and sometimes

hurtful are not rather good than bad that is indeed the consequence of your argument replied euphidimus but it cannot be denied that knowledge is a good thing for what is there in which a knowing man has not the advantage of an ignorant one and have you not read said socrates what happened to daedalus for his knowing so many excellent arts and how being fallen into the hands of minos he was detained by force and saw himself at once banished from his country and stripped of his liberty to complete his misfortune flying away with his son

he was the occasion of his being miserably lost and could not after all escape in his own person for falling into the hands of barbarians he was again made a slave no you not likewise the adventures of palamides who was so envied by ulysses for his great capacity and who perished wretchedly by the colonies artifices of that rival how many great men likewise has the king of persia caused to be seized and carried away because of their admirable parts and who are now languishing under him in a perpetual slavery but granting this to be as

you say added euthymus you will certainly allow good fortune to be a good i will said socrates provided this good fortune consists in things that are undoubtedly good and how can it be that the things which compose good fortune should not be infallibly good they are answered socrates unless you reckon among them beauty and strength of body riches honors and other things of that nature and how can a man be happy without them rather said socrates how can a man be happy with things that are the causes of so many misfortunes for many are daily

corrupted because of their beauty many who presume too much on their own strength are oppressed under the burden of their undertakings among the rich some are lost in luxury and others fall into the snares of those that wait for their estates and lastly the reputation and honors that are acquired in republics are often the cause of their rune who possessed them certainly said euthydimus if i am in the wrong to praise good fortune i know not what we ought to ask of the deity perhaps too replied socrates you have never considered it because you think

you know it well enough but continued he changing the subject of their discourse seeing you are preparing yourself to enter upon the government of our republic where the people are master without doubt you have reflected on the nature of this state and know what a democracy is you ought to believe i do and do you think it possible said socrates to know what a democracy or popular state is without knowing what the people is i do not think i can and what is the people said socrates under that name answered euthymus i mean the poor

citizens you know then who are the poor i do said euphidimus do you know two who are the rich i know that too tell me then who are the rich and who are the poor i take the poor answered euphidimus to be those who have not enough to supply their necessary expenses and the rich to be they who have more than they have occasion for but have you observed replied socrates that there are certain persons who though they have very little have never the less enough and even lay up some small matter out of it

and on the contrary there are others who never have enough how great so ever their estates and possessions are you put me in mind said euthymies of something very much to the purpose for i have seen even some princes so necesitous that they have been compelled to take away their subjects estates and to commit many injustices we must then said socrates place such princes in the rank of the poor and those who have but small estates yet manage them well in the number of the rich i must give consent to all you say answered euthymus

for i am too ignorant to contradict you and i think it will be best for me from henceforward to hold my peace for i am almost ready to confess that i know nothing at all having said this he withdrew full of confusion and self-contempt beginning to be conscious to himself that he was indeed a person of little or no account at all nor was he the only person whom socrates had thus convinced of their ignorance and insufficiency several of whom never came more to see him and valued him the less for it but euthymus did

not act like them on the contrary he believed it impossible for him to improve his parts but by frequently conversing with socrates in so much that he never left him unless some business of moment called him away and he even took the light to imitate some of his actions socrates seeing him thus altered from what he was was tender of saying anything to him that might irritate or discourage him but took care to speak more freely and plainly to him of the things he ought to know and apply himself to end of section 33 section

34 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by ian verley the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenovon translated by edward baishi book four chapter three proofs of a kind superintending providence what returns of gratitude and duty men ought to make to god for his favors an honest and good life the best song of thanksgiving or the most acceptable sacrifice to the deity as socrates considered virtue and piety as the two grand pillars

of a state and was fully persuaded that all other qualifications whatever without the knowledge and practice of these would instead of enabling men to do good serve on the contrary to render them more wicked and more capable of doing mischief for that reason he never pressed his friends to enter into any public office until he had first instructed them in their duty to god and mankind but above all he endeavored to instill into their minds pious sentiments of the deity frequently displaying before them high and noble descriptions of the divine power wisdom and goodness but

seeing several have already written what they had heard him say in diverse occasions upon this subject i will content myself with relating some things which he said to euthymus when i myself was present have you never reflected euthydimus on the great goodness of the deity in giving to men whatever they want indeed i never have answered he you see replied socrates how very necessary light is for us and how the gods give it to us you say true answered euthymous and without light we should be like the blind but because we have need of repose

they have given us the night to rest in the night which of all times is the fittest for repose you are in the right said euthymus and we ought to render them many praises for it moreover continued socrates as the sun is a luminous body and by the brightness of his beams discovers to us all visible things and shows us the hours of the day and as on the contrary the night is dusky and obscure they have made the stars to appear which during the absence of the day mark the hours to us by which

means we can do many things we have occasion for they have likewise made the moon to shine which not only shows us the hours of the night but teaches us to know the time of the month all this is true said euthymus have you not taken notice likewise that having need of nourishment they supply us with it by the means of the earth how excellently the seasons are ordered for the fruits of the earth of which we have such an abundance and so great a variety that we find not only wherewith to supply our real

wants but to satisfy even luxury itself this goodness of the gods cried euthymus is an evidence of the great love they bear to men what say you continued socrates to their having given us water which is so necessary for all things for it is that which assists the earth to produce the fruits that contributes with the influences from above to bring them to maturity it helps to nourish us and by being mingled with what we eat makes it more easily got ready more useful and more delightful in short being of so universal in use is

it not an admirable providence that has made it so common what say you to there having given us fire which defends us from cold which lights us when it is dark which is necessary to us in all trades and which we cannot be without in the most excellent and useful inventions of men without exaggeration said euthymus this goodness is immense what say you besides pursuit socrates to see that after the winter of the sun comes back to us and that proportionably as he brings the new fruits to maturity he withers and dries those whose season

is going over that after having done us this service he retires that his heat may not incommodus and then when he is gone back to a certain point which he cannot transgress without putting us in danger of dying with cold he returns again to retake his place in this part of the heavens where his presence is most advantageous to us and because we should not be able to support either cold or heat if we passed in an instant from one extreme to the other do you not admire that this planet approaches us and withdraws himself

from us by so just and slow degrees that we arrive at the two extremes without almost perceiving the change all these things said euthymus make me doubt whether the gods have anything to do but to serve mankind one thing puts me to a stand that the irrational animals participate of all these advantages with us how said socrates and do you then doubt whether the animals themselves are in the world for any other end than for the service of man what other animals do like us make use of horses of oxen of dogs of goats and

of the rest nay i am of opinion that man receives not so much advantage from the earth as from the animals for the greatest part of mankind live not on the fruits of the earth but nourish themselves with milk cheese and the flesh of beasts they get the mastery over them they make them tame and use them to their great advantage in war and for the other necessities of life i own it said euthymus for some of them are much stronger than man and yet are so obedient to him that he does with them whatever

he pleases admire yet further the goodness of the gods said socrates and consider that as there is in the world an infinite number of excellent and useful things but of very different natures they have given us external senses which correspond to each of these sensible objects and by means of which senses we can perceive and enjoy all of them they have besides endued us with reason and understanding which enableth us to discern between those things that the senses discover to us to inquire into the different natures of things useful and things hurtful and so to

know by experience which to choose and which to reject they have likewise given us speech by means whereof we communicate our thoughts to each other and instruct one another in the knowledge of whatever is excellent and good by which also we publish our laws and govern states in fine as we cannot always foresee what is to happen to us nor know what it will be best for us to do the gods offer us likewise their assistance by the means of the oracles they discover the future to us when we go to consult them and teach

us how to behave ourselves in the affairs of life here euthymus interrupting him said and indeed these gods are in this respect more favorable to you than to the rest of mankind since without expecting you to consult them they give you notice of what you ought or ought not to do you will allow therefore that i told you true said socrates when i told you there were gods and that they take great care of men but expect not that they will appear to you and present themselves before your eyes let it suffice you to behold

their works and to adore them and be persuaded that this is the way by which they manifest themselves to men for among all the gods that are so liberal to us there is not one who renders himself visible to confer on us his favors and that supreme god who built the universe and who supports this great work whose every part is accomplished in beauty and goodness he who is the cause that none of its parts grow old with time and that they preserve themselves always in an immortal vigor who is the cause besides that they

inviolably obey his laws with a readiness that surpasses our imagination he i say is visible enough in the so many wondrous works of which he is author but our eyes cannot penetrate even into his throne to behold him in these great occupations and in that manner it is that he is always invisible do but consider that the son who seems to be exposed to the sight of all the world does not suffer us to gaze fixedly upon him and whoever has the temerity to undertake it is punished with sudden blindness besides whatever the gods make

use of is invisible the thunder is lanced from above it shatters all it finds in its way but we see it not fall we see it not strike we see it not return the winds are invisible though we see the desolations they daily make and easily feel when they grow boisterous if there be anything in man that partakes of the divine nature it is his soul which beyond all dispute guides and governs him and yet we cannot see it let all this therefore teach you not to neglect or disbelieve the deity because he is invisible

learn to know his presence and power from the visible effects of it in the world around you be persuaded of the universal care and providence of the all-surrounding deity from the blessings he showers down upon all his creatures and be sure to worship and serve this god in a becoming manner i am sure said euthymus i shall never derogate from the respect due to the gods and i am even troubled that every man cannot sufficiently acknowledge the benefits he receives from them be not afflicted at that said socrates for you know what answer the delphian

oracle is want to return to those who inquire what they ought to do in order to make an acceptable sacrifice follow the custom of your country says he to them now it is a custom received in all places for every man to sacrifice to them according to his power and by consequences there is no better nor more pious a way of honoring the gods than that since they themselves ordain and approve it it is indeed a truth that we ought not to spare anything of what we are able to offer for that would be a

manifest contempt when therefore a man has done all that is in his power to do he ought to fear nothing and hope all for from once can we reasonably hope for more than from those in whose power it is to do us the greatest good and by what other way can we more easily obtain it than by making ourselves acceptable to them and how can we better make ourselves acceptable to them than by doing their will this is what socrates taught and by this doctrine which was always accompanied with an exemplary devotion he greatly advanced

his friends in piety end of section 34 recording by ian verley section 35 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by ian verley the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward baishi book four chapter four instances of the inviolable integrity of socrates his conversation with hippies concerning justice concerning justice it cannot be said that socrates concealed his opinion of it for he plainly revealed his sentiments by his actions as well

in public as in private making it his business to serve every man and to obey the magistrates and the laws in so much that as well in the army as in the city his obedience and uprightness rendered him remarkable above all others he fully discovered the integrity of his soul when he presided in the assemblies of the people he would never pass a decree that was contrary to the laws he alone defended the cause of justice against the efforts of the multitude and opposed the violence which no man but himself was able to resist again

when the thirty commanded him anything that was unjust he did not obey them thus when they forbid him to speak to the young men he regarded not their inhibition and when they gave orders to him as well as to some other citizens to bring before them a certain man whom they intended to put to death he alone would do nothing in it because that order was unjust in like manner when he was accused by mellitus though in such occasions others endeavor to gain their judges by flatteries and ignominious solicitations which often procure them their pardon

he would not put in practice any of these mean artifices that are repugnant to the laws and yet he might very easily have got himself acquitted if he could have prevailed with himself to comply in the least with the custom but he chose rather to die in an exact observance of the laws than to save his life by acting contrary to them for he utterly abhorred all mean or indirect practices and this was the answer he gave to several of his friends who advised him to the contrary since i am now illustrating the character of

socrates with regard to justice i will at the same time relate a conversation i remember he had with hippies of ellis on that subject it was a long while that hippies had not been at athens and being arrived there he happened to come to a place where socrates was discoursing with some persons and telling them that if anyone had a mind to learn a trade there wanted not masters to teach him nay that if one would have a horse trained up there were persons enough to undertake it but that if one desired to learn to

be a good man or to have his son or any of his family taught to be so it would be difficult to know to whom to apply himself hippies rallying him said what socrates you are still repeating the same things i heard you say so long ago nay more replied socrates and always upon the same subject but you perhaps being learned as you are do not always say the same thing upon the same subject indeed said hippies i always endeavor to say something new is it possible replied socrates pray tell me if you were asked

how many letters there are in my name and which they are would you answer sometimes in one manner and sometimes in another or if you were asked whether twice five be not ten would you not always say the same thing in subjects like those said hippies i should be obliged to say the same thing as well as you but since we are upon the theme of justice i believe i can now say some things of it against which neither you nor any man else can make any objection good god cried socrates what a mighty boast

is here upon my word hippies you have made an admirable discovery and you have reason to value yourself upon it 4. let me tell you if you can establish one single opinion of justice the judges will be no longer divided in their sentiments there will be no more quarrels no more suits at law no more seditions among citizens no more wars between republics indeed it much troubles me to leave you before you have taught me the secret which you say you have discovered i give you my word answered hippies that i will tell you nothing

of it till you have first declared your own opinion concerning justice for it is your old way to interrogate others and then to laugh at them by refuting what they have said but you never make known your own opinions that you may not be obliged to give a reason for them why do you lay this to my charge said socrates since i am continually showing to all the world what are the things i believe to be just how do you show it said hippies if i explain it not by my words answered socrates my actions

speak it sufficiently and do you think that actions deserve not rather to be believed than words much rather said hippies because many may say one thing and do another nay we see that in fact many who preach up justice to others are very unjust themselves but this cannot be said of a man whose every action is good and that never in his life did an unjust thing have you known then said socrates that i have accused any man out of malice that i have sown dissension among friends that i have raised seditions in the republic

in short that i have committed any other sort of injustice not in the least said he well then added socrates do you not take him to be just who commits no manner of injustice it is plain now said hippies that you intend to get loose and that you will not speak your mind freely nor give us an exact definition of justice for all this while you have only shown what just men do not but not what they do i should have thought said socrates i had given at once a good definition and a clear instance

of justice when i called it an aversion from doing injustice but since you will not allow it to be so see whether this will satisfy you i say then that justice is nothing but the observance of the laws you mean said hippies that to observe the laws is to be just yes answered socrates i cannot comprehend your thought said hippies do you not know pursued socrates what the laws in a state are the laws answer tipius are what the citizens have ordained by an universal consent then inferred socrates he who lives comfortably to those ordinances

observes the laws and he who acts contrary to them is a transgressor of the laws you say true is it not likewise true continued socrates that he who obeys these ordinances does justly and that he who obeys them not does unjustly yes but said socrates he who acts justly is just and he who acts unjustly is unjust without doubt therefore said socrates whosoever observes the laws is just and whosoever observes them not is unjust but how can it be imagined objective hippies that the laws are a good thing and that it is good to obey

them since even they that made them mend alter and repeal them so often to this socrates answered when you blame those who obey the laws because they are subject to be abrogated you do the same thing as if you laughed at your enemies for keeping themselves in a good posture of defense during the war because you might tell them that the peace will one day be made and thus you would condemn those who generously expose their lives for the service of their country do you know added he that lycurgus could never have rendered the republic

of sparta more excellent than other states if he had not made it his chief care to incline the citizens most exactly to observe the laws this too is what all good magistrates aim at because a republic that is obedient to the laws is happy in peace and invincible in war moreover you know that concord is a great happiness in a state it is daily recommended to the people and it is an established custom all over greece to make the citizens swear to live in good understanding with one another and each of them takes an oath

to do so now i do not believe that this unity is exacted of them only that they might choose the same company of comedians or of musicians nor that they might give their approbation to the same poets or all take delight in the same diversions but that they may all unanimously obey the laws because that obedience is the security and the happiness of the state concord therefore is so necessary that without it good polity and authority cannot subsist in any state nor good economy and order in any family in our private capacity likewise how advantageous

is it to obey the laws by what means can we more certainly avoid punishments and deserve rewards what more prudent conduct can we observe always to gain our suits at law and never to be cast to whom should we with greater confidence trust our estates or our children than to him who makes a conscience of observing the laws who can deserve more of his country whom can she more safely entrust with public posts and on whom can she more justly bestow the highest honors than on the good and honest man who will discharge himself better

of his duty towards his father or his mother towards his relations or his domestics towards his friends his fellow citizens or his guests to whom will the enemy rather trust for the observing of a truce or for the performance of a treaty of peace with whom would we rather choose to make an alliance to whom will the allies more readily give the command of their armies or the government of their towns from whom can we rather hope for a grateful return of a kindness than from a man who strictly obeys the laws and by consequence

to whom will men be more ready to do good turns than to him of whose gratitude they are certain with whom will men be better pleased to contract a friendship and consequently against whom will men be less inclined to commit acts of hostility than against that person who has everybody for his well-wisher and friend and few or none for his ill wishers or enemies these hippies are the advantages of observing the laws and now having shown you that the observance of the laws is the same thing with justice if you are of another opinion pray

let me know it indeed socrates answered hippies what you have said of justice agrees exactly with my sentiments of it have you never heard continued socrates of certain laws that are not written you mean the laws answered hippies which are received all over the earth do you think then added socrates that it was all mankind that made them that is impossible said hippies because all men cannot be assembled in the same place and they speak not all of them the same language who then do you think gave us these laws the gods answered hippies for

the first command to all men is to adore the gods and is it not likewise commanded everywhere to honor one's father and mother yes certainly said hibius socrates went on and that fathers and mothers should not marry with their own children is not that too a general command no answered hippies this last law is not a divine law because i see some persons transgress it they observe not the others better said socrates but take notice that no man violates with impunity allah established by the gods there are unavoidable punishments annexed to this crime but we

easily secure ourselves from the rigor of human laws after we have transgressed them either by keeping ourselves hid or defending ourselves by open force and what is this punishment said hippies which it is impossible for fathers who marry with their own children to avoid it is very great said socrates for what can be more afflicting to men who desire to have children than to have very bad ones and how do you know pursued hippies that they will have bad children what shall hinder them if they are virtuous themselves from having children that are so likewise

it is not enough answered socrates that the father and the mother be virtuous they must besides be both of them in the vigor and perfection of their age now do you believe that the seed of persons who are too young or who are already in their declining age is equal to that of persons who are in their full strength it is not likely that it is said hippies and which is the best pursued socrates without doubt said hippies that of a man in his strength it follows then continued socrates that the seed of persons who

are not yet come to their full strength or who are past it is not good in all appearance it is not in those ages then we ought not to get children said socrates i think so such therefore as indulge their lust in such untimely fruition will have very weakly children i grant they will and are not weakly children bad ones they are said hippies tell me further said socrates is it not an universal law to do good to those who have done good to us yes said hippies but many offend against this law and they

are punished for it replied socrates seeing their best friends abandon them and that they are obliged to follow those who have an aversion for them for are not they the best friends who do kindnesses whenever they are desired and if he who has received a favor neglect to acknowledge it or return it ill does he not incur their hate by his ingratitude and yet finding his advantage in preserving their good will is it not to them that he makes his court with most assiduity it is evident said hippies that it is the gods who have

ordered these things for when i consider that each law carries with it the punishment of the transgressor i confess it to be the work of a more excellent legislator than man and do you think said socrates that the gods make laws that are unjust on the contrary answer tipius it is very difficult for any but the gods to make laws that are just therefore hippies said socrates according to the gods themselves to obey the laws is to be just this is what socrates said on the subject of justice and his actions being conformable to his

words he from day to day created a greater love of justice in the minds of those who frequented him end of section 35 recording by ian verley section 36 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librivox.org recording by daniel shorten the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 4 chapter 5 of the mischiefs of intemperance and the advantages of sobriety i will now set down the arguments that socrates used to

bring his friends to the practice of good actions for being of opinion that temperance is a great advantage to such his desire to do anything that is excellent he first showed them by his way of living that no man was more advanced than himself in the exercise of that virtue and in his conferences he exhorted his hearers above all things to the practice of it and his thoughts being continually employed in the means of arriving to be virtuous he made it likewise the subject of all his discourses i remember that talking once with ephth concerning

temperance he delivered himself to this effect in your opinion ephthudimus is liberty a very valuable thing to be valued above all things answered if the most do you believe that a man who is a slave to sensual pleasures and finds himself incapable of doing good enjoys his liberty not in the least you allow then that to do good is to be free and that to be prevented from doing it by any obstacle whatever is not to be free i think so said etheremos you believe then said socrates that debauched persons are not free i do

do you believe likewise continued socrates that debauchery does not only hinder from doing good but compels to do ill i think it does what would you say then of a master who should hinder you from applying yourself to what is honest and force you to undertake some infamous occupation i would say he was a very wicked master answered ethidimus and which is the worst of all slaveries added socrates to serve ill masters said iphiramos therefore inferred socrates the debauched or in a miserable slavery no doubt of it is it not debauchery likewise said socrates that

deprives men of their wisdom the noblest gift of the gods and drives them into ignorance and stupidity and all manner of disorders it robs them of leisure to apply themselves to things profitable while it drowns them in sensual pleasures and it seizes their minds to that degree that though they often know which is the best way they are miserably engaged in the worst they are so nor can we expect to find temperance nor modesty in a debauched person since the actions of temperance and debauchery are entirely opposite there is no doubt of it said if

this i do not think neither added sokratis that it is possible to imagine anything that makes men neglect their duty more than debauchery you say true is there anything more pernicious to man said socrates then that which robs him of his judgment makes him embrace and cherish things that are hurtful avoid and neglect what is profitable and lead a life contrary to that of good men there is nothing said is socrates went on and may we not ascribe the contrary effects to temperance without doubt and is it not likely to be true that the cause

of the contrary effect is good most certainly it follows then my dear ephedimus sitsokratis that temperance is a very good thing undoubtedly it is but have you reflected pursued socrates that debauchery which pretends to lead men to pleasures cannot conduct them thither but deceives them leaving them in disappointment satiaty and disgust and have you considered that temperance and sobriety alone give us the true taste of pleasures for it is the nature of debauchery not to endure hunger nor thirst nor the fatigue of being long awake nor the vehement desires of love which nevertheless are the

true dispositions to eat and drink with delight and to find an exquisite pleasure in the soft approaches of sleep and in the enjoyments of love this is the reason that the intemperate find less satisfaction in these actions which are necessary and frequently done but temperance which accustoms us to wait for the necessity is the only thing that makes us feel an extreme pleasure in these occasions you are in the right said eftidimus it is this virtue too said socrates that puts men in a condition of bringing to a state of perfection both the mind and

the body of rendering themselves capable of well governing their families of being serviceable to their friends and their country and of overcoming their enemies which is not only very agreeable on the account of the advantages but very desirable likewise for the satisfaction that attends it but the debate know none of this for what share can they pretend to in virtuous actions they whose minds are wholly taken up in the pursuit of present pleasures according to what you say replied of this a man given to voluptuousness is unfit for any virtue and what difference is there

said socrates between an irrational animal and a voluptuous man who has no regard to what is best but blindly pursues what is most delightful it belongs to the temperate only to inquire what things are best and what not and then after having found out the difference by experience and reasoning to embrace the good and avoid the bad which renders them at once most happy most virtuous and most prudent this was the sum of this conference with ephthidimus now sokratis said that conferences were so called because the custom was to meet and confer together in order

to distinguish things according to their different species and he advised the frequent holding of these conferences because it is an exercise that improves and makes men truly great teaches them to become excellent politicians and ripens the judgment and understanding end of section 36 section 37 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit libravox.org the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bish book 4 chapter 6 socrates's friends attained by frequenting his conversation an

excellent way of reasoning the method he observed in arguing shown in several instances of the different sorts of government how socrates defended his opinions i will show in the next place how socrates's friends learned to reason so well by frequenting his conversation he held that they who perfectly understand the nature of things can explain themselves very well concerning them but that a man who has not that knowledge often deceives himself and others likewise he therefore perpetually conferred with his friends without ever being weary of that exercise it would be very difficult to relate how he

defined every particular thing i will therefore mention only what i think sufficient to show what method he observed in reasoning and in the first place let us see how he argues concerning piety tell me said he to euthymus what piety is it is a very excellent thing answered euphidimus and who is a pious man said socrates a man who serves the gods is it lawful added socrates to serve the gods in what manner we please by no means said euphidimus there are laws made for that purpose which must be kept he then who keeps these

laws will know how we ought to serve the gods i think so and is it not true continued socrates that he who knows one way of serving the gods believes there is no better away than his that is certain and will he not be careful how he does otherwise i believe he will he then who knows the laws that ought to be observed in the service of the gods will serve them according to the laws without doubt but he who serves the gods as the law's direct serves them as he ought true he does and

he who serves the gods as he ought is pious there is no doubt of it thus then said socrates we have the true definition of a pious man he who knows in what manner he ought to serve the gods i think so said euphidimus tell me further continued socrates is it lawful for men to behave themselves to one another as they please in no wise answered euphidimus there are also certain laws which they ought to observe among themselves and do they said socrates who live together according to those laws live as they ought yes and

are they who live as they ought live well certainly they do and does he who knows how to live well with men understand well how to govern his affairs it is likely that he may now do you believe said socrates that some men obey the laws without knowing what the laws command i do not believe it and when a man knows what he ought to do do you think he believes that he ought not to do it i do not think so and do you know any men who do otherwise than they believe they ought

to do none at all they then who know the laws that men ought to observe among themselves do what those laws command i believe so and do they who do what the laws command do what is just most surely and they who do what is just are just likewise none but they are so we may therefore well conclude said socrates that the just are they who know the laws that men ought to observe among themselves i grant it said euthymus and as for wisdom pursued socrates what shall we say it is tell me whether are

men said to be wise in regard to the things they know or in regard to those they do not know there can be no doubt answered ethidimus but that it is inconsideration of what they know or how can a man be wise in things he knows not then said socrates men are wise on account of their knowledge it cannot be otherwise is wisdom anything but what renders us wise no wisdom therefore is only knowledge i think so and do you believe said socrates that it is in the power of a man to know everything not

so much as even the hundredth part it is then impossible said socrates to find a man who is wise in all things indeed it is said euphidimus it follows then said socrates that every man is wise in what he knows i believe so but can we by the same way of comparison judge of the nature of good as how said euthymus do you think said socrates that the same thing is profitable to all men by no means do you believe that the same thing may be profitable to one and hurtful to another i think it

may then is it not the good that is profitable yes certainly therefore what is profitable is a good to him to whom it is profitable that is true is it not the same with what is beautiful for can you say that a body or a vessel is beautiful and proper for all the world by no means you will say then that it is beautiful in regard to the thing for which it is proper yes but tell me whether what is reputed beautiful for one thing has the same relation to another as to that to which

it is proper no then whatever is of any use is reputed beautiful in regard to the thing to which that use relates i think so and what say you of courage added socrates is it an excellent thing very excellent answered euthymus but do you believe it to be of use in occasions of little moment yes but it is necessary in great affairs do you think it of great advantage and dangers continued socrates not to perceive the peril we are in i am not of that opinion at that great said socrates they who are not frightened

because they see not the danger are in no wise valiant there is no doubt of it said euthymus for otherwise there would be some fools and even cowards who must be accounted brave and what are they who fear what is not to be feared they are less brave than the others answered euthymus they therefore said socrates who show themselves valiant and dangerous occasions are they whom you call brave and they who behave themselves in them unworthily are they whom you call cowards very right do you think added socrates that any men are valiant in such

occasions except they who know how to behave themselves in them i do not think there are and are not they who behave themselves unworthily the same as they who know not how to behave themselves i believe they are and does not every man behave himself as he believes he ought to do without doubt shall we say then that they who behave themselves ill know how they ought to behave themselves by no means they therefore who know how to behave themselves are they who behave themselves well they and no others let us conclude then said socrates

that they who know how to behave themselves well in dangers and difficult occasions are the brave and that they who know not how to do so are the cowards that is my opinion said euphidimus socrates was want to say that a kingly government and a tyrannical government were indeed two sorts of monarchy and that there was this difference between them that under a kingly government the subjects obeyed willingly and that everything was done according to the laws of the state but that under a tyrannical government the people obeyed by force and that all the laws

were reduced to the sole will of the sovereign concerning the other sorts of government he said that when the offices of a republic are given to the good citizens this sort of state was called aristocracy or government of good men when on the contrary the magistrates were chosen according to their revenues it was called the plutocracy or government of the rich and when all the people are admitted without distinction to bear employments it is a democracy or popular government if anyone opposed the opinion of socrates on any affair whatever without giving a convincing reason his

custom was to bring back the discourse to the first proposition and to begin by that to search for the truth for example if socrates had commended any particular person and any stand or buy had named another and pretended that he was more valiant or more experienced in affairs he would have defended his opinion in the following manner you pretend would he have said that he of whom you speak is a better citizen than the person whom i was praising let us consider what is the duty of a good citizen and what man is most esteemed

in a republic will you not grant me that in relation to the management of the public revenue he is in the highest esteem who well he has that office saves the republic most money in regard to the war it is he who gains most victories over the enemies if we are to enter into a treaty with other states it is he who can dextrously win over to the party of the republic those who before opposed its interests if we are to have regard to what passes in the assemblies of the people it is he who

breaks the cabals who appeases the seditious who maintains concord and unity among the citizens this being granted him he applied these general rules to the dispute in question and made the truth plainly appear even to the eyes of those who contradicted him as for himself when he undertook the discourse of anything he always began by the most common and universally received propositions and was want to say that the strength of the argument consisted in so doing and indeed of all the men i have ever seen i know none who could so easily bring others to

own the truth of what he had a mind to prove to them and he said that homer speaking of ulysses called him the certain and never failing orator because he had the art of supporting his arguments upon principles that were acknowledged by all men end of section 37 section 38 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit libravox.org the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward biss book 4 chapter 7 method to be

observed in study arts and sciences no further useful than they contribute to render men wiser better or happier vain and unprofitable knowledge to be rejected i presume now that what i have said has been a sufficient evidence of the frankness and sincerity with which socrates conversed with his friends and made known his opinions to them it remains now that i should say something of the extreme care socrates showed for the advancement of his friends and how much he had at heart that they might not be ignorant of anything that could be useful to them to

the end that they might not want the assistance of others in their own affairs for this reason he applied himself to examine in what each of them was knowing then if he thought it in his power to teach them anything that an honest and worthy man ought to know he taught them such things with incredible readiness and affection if not he carried them himself to masters who were able to instruct them but he resolved within himself how far a person who was well educated in his studies but to learn everything thus for geometry he said

that we ought to know enough of it not to be imposed upon in measure when we buy or sell land when we divide an inheritance into shares or measure out the work of a laborer and that it was so easy to know this that if a man applied himself ever so little to the practice of such things he would soon learn even the extent and circumference of the whole earth and how to measure it but he did not approve that a man should dive into the very bottom of this science and puzzle his brains with

i know not what figures though he himself was expert in it for he said he could not see what all those niceties and inventions were good for which take up the whole life of a man and distract him from other more necessary studies in like manner he was of opinion that a man should employ some time in astronomy that he might know by the stars the hour of the night what day of the month it is and what season of the year we are in in order that we might know when to relieve a sentinel

in the night and when it is best to venture out to sea or undertake a journey and in short that we might know how to do everything in its proper season he said that all this was easily learnt by conversing with sea men or with such as goa hunting by night or others who professed to know these things but he dissuaded very much from penetrating farther into this science as even to know what planets are not in the same declination to explain all their different emotions to know how far distant they are from the earth

in how long time they make their revolutions and what are their several influences for he thought these sciences wholly useless not that he was ignorant of them himself but because they take up all our time and divert us from better employment in fine he could not allow of a too curious inquiry into the wonderful workmanship of the deity in the disposition of the universe that being a secret which the mind cannot comprehend and because it is not an action acceptable to god to endeavor to discover what he would hide from us he held likewise that

it was dangerous to perplex the mind with these sublime speculations as anaxagoras had done who pretended to be very knowing in them for in teaching that the son was the same thing as fire he does not consider that fire does not dazzle the ice but that it is impossible to support the splendor of the sun he did not reflect neither that the sun blackens the sky which fire does not nor lastly that the heat of the sun is necessary to the earth in order to the production of trees and fruits but that the heat of

fire burns and kills them when he said too that the sun was only a stone set on fire he did not consider that a stone glitter is not in the fire and cannot last long in it without consuming whereas the sun lasts always and is an inexhaustible source of light socrates advised likewise to learn arithmetic but not to amuse ourselves with the vain curiosities of that science having established this rule in all his studies and in all his conferences never to go beyond what is useful he exhorted his friends to take care of their health

and to that purpose to consult with the learned and to observe besides each in his own particular what meat what drink and what exercise is best for him and how to use them to preserve himself in health for when a man has thus studied his own constitution he cannot have a better physician than himself if anyone desired to attempt or to learn things that were above the power or capacity of human nature he advised him to apply himself to divination for he who knows by what means the gods generally signify their mind to men or

how it is they use to give them counsel and aid such a person never fails to obtain from the deity all that direction and assistance that is necessary for him end of section 38 section 39 of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit livervox.org recording by eddie elfman book 4 chapter 8 behavior of socrates from the time of his condemnation to his death his character summed up in a few words to conclude if because socrates

was condemned to death anyone should believe that he was a liar to say that he had a good demon that guided him and gave him instructions what he should or should not do let him consider in the first place he was arrived to such an age that if he had not died when he did he could not have lived much longer that by dying when he did he avoided the most toilsome part of life and which the mind loses much of its vigor and that it amends for it he discovered to the whole world the

greatness of his soul acquired to himself and immortal glory by the defense he made before his judges and behaving himself with the sincerity courage and property that were indeed wonderful and in receiving his sentence with a patience and resolution of mind never be equaled for it is agreed by all that no man ever suffered death with greater constancy than socrates he lived 30 days after his condemnation because the delian feasts happened in that month and the law forbids to put any man to death till the consecrated vessel that is sent to the isle of delos

b come back to athens during that time his friends who saw him continually found no change in him but that he always retained that tranquility of mind and agreeableness of temper which before had made all the world admire him now certainly no man can die with greater constancy than this this is doubtless the most glorious death that can be imagined but if it be the most glorious it is the most happy and if it be the most happy it is the most acceptable to the deity hermogenesa told me that being with him a little after

melitus had accused him he observed that he seemed to decline speaking of that affair from once he took occasion to tell him that it would not be a miss for him to think of what he should answer in his own justification to which socrates replied do you believe i have done anything else all my life then think of it and homogeneous asked him what he meant by saying so socrates told him that he made it to the whole business of his life to examine what was just and what unjust that he had always cherished justice

and hated injustice that he did not believe there was any better way to justify himself hermogenes said further to him do you not know the judges have often condemned the innocent to death only because their answers offended them and that on the contrary they have often acquitted the guilty i know it very well answered socrates but i assure you that having set myself to think what i should say to my judges the demon that advises me dissuaded me from it and which homogeneous seemed surprised socrates said to him why are you surprised that this god

thinks it better for me to leave this world than to continue longer in it sure you are not ignorant that i have lived as well as pleasantly as any man if to live well be as i take it to have no concern but for virtue and if to live pleasantly be to find that we have made some progress in it now i have good reason to believe that this is my happy case that i have always had a steady regard for virtue and made progress in it because i perceive that my mind at this time

doth not misgive me nay i have sincere testimony of my conscience that i have done my duty and in this belief i strengthen myself by the conversation i've had with others and by comparing myself with them my friends too have believed the same thing of me not because they wish me well for in that sense every friend should think much of his friend but because they thought they advanced in virtue by my conversation if i were to live longer perhaps i should fall into the inconveniences of old age perhaps my sight should grow dim my

hearing fail me my judgment become weak i should have more trouble to learn what to retain what i had learned perhaps too after all i should find myself incapable of doing the good i have done before and if to complete my misery i should have no sense of my wretchedness would not life be a burden to me and on the other hand say i had sense of it would it not affleck me beyond measure as things now stand if i die innocent the shame will fall on those who've caused my death since all sort of

iniquity is attended with shame but who will ever blame me because others have not confessed my innocence nor done me justice past experience less to see that they will suffer injustice and they who committed leave not alike reputation behind them after their death and thus if i die on this occasion i am most certain that posterity will honor my memory than theirs who condemn me for it will be said of me that i never did any wrong never gave any ill advice to any man but that i labored all my life long to excite to

virtue those who frequented me this was the answer that socrates gave to hermogenes and to several others in a word all good men who knew socrates daily regret his loss to this very hour reflecting on the advantage and improvement they made in his company for my own part having found him to be a man i have described that is to say so pious is to do nothing without the advice of the deity so just as never to having the least injured any man and to have done very signal services to many so chaste and temperate

is never to have preferred to delight and pleasure before modesty and honesty so prudent is never to have mistaken in the discernment of good and evil and never to have need of the advice of others to form or right judgment of either moreover most capable to deliberate and resolve in all sorts of affairs most capable to examine into men to represent them for their vices and to excite them to virtue having i say found all those perfections in socrates i have always esteemed him the most virtuous and most happy of all men and if anyone

be not of my opinion let him take the pains to compare him with other men and judge him afterwards end of section 39 recording by eddie elfman end of the memorable thoughts of socrates by xenophon translated by edward bishi