Albert Ellis entrevista a Gloria

[Music] rational therapy a rational emotive therapy also called rt for short is based on several fundamental propositions or hypotheses and the first of these is that the past is not crucial in a person's life the past affects him a good deal but he affects himself much more than the past affects him because no matter what he has learned during his historical development the only reason why these things that have happened to him and have been told to him affect him today is because he is still re-indoctrinating himself with the same philosophies of life the same

values that he usually imbibed and taught himself to early in his childhood so we stick largely in the present in rational emotive psychotherapy rather than in the past and we believe that today the individual experiences negative emotions self-defeating behavior inefficiencies because he now is indoctrinating himself with what we call simple exclamatory sentences which involve ideas human beings can tell themselves ideas in all kinds of languages and pictures in sign languages in non-verbal expression and math for example but they normally speak to themselves in simple english if english is their native tongue and when they talk

to themselves in an irrational or an illogical way then they create they literally create their negative feelings or emotions in the behavior that follows their from now just to give an example the individual usually tells himself when he's upset first the same sentence and then an insane sentence the same sentence is something along the order of i don't like the thing that i've done i dislike my own behavior and that would be fine but unfortunately he follows it with an insane sentence which says to himself and because i don't like my behavior i am a

louse i am worthless i am a no good nick and this thoroughly insane sentence which is a sentence of faith unfounded on fact which has no empirical referent which is a kind of superstitious or dogmatically religious system creates what we call his anxiety and through his anxieties depression his guilt his other forms of self-defeatism or again the individual tells himself the same sentence i don't like your behavior when let us say somebody has acted badly with him and instead of following that up with that because i don't like your behavior i can still stand it

and i'm going to try to change to get you to change your behavior he says i can't stand your behavior or in an absolutistic god-like grandiose manner you shouldn't be the way you are because i think that i don't like the way you are now it's the second b sentences which upset the individual or another way of putting it as epic titus a roman philosopher said many years ago it's not what happens to us at point a that upsets us it's b our view of what happens to us and in rational emotive psychotherapy we go

after this individual the patient's view and show him that whatever he thinks has upset him usually some external situation what somebody else has done it's really what he's telling himself about this thing this event which upsets him and although he may never be able to do anything about the external event at a he can change the internal event his sentence his belief to himself at b now in rational mode of psychotherapy we try to show the patient three kinds of insight and kind of distinction to some other therapies which usually emphasize one major kind the

first kind we try to show him is that all his behaviors especially his negative self-defeating behavior which we're interested which is upsetting him has clear-cut ideological antecedents he may have learned these as i said before in the past but right now today he must still believe these same ideologies else he would not get the negative behavior that flows there from and insight number two which is most important and which is unfortunately neglected and many other systems of psychotherapy is that he being as ernst casira once said a symbolizing animal is continually re-indoctrinating himself with these

ideologies and that's the issue that's why he's now disturbed now insight number three is that even when he sees clearly what he's telling himself and that he's telling himself nonsense only by work and practice by continually reassessing and revaluing his own philosophic assumptions will he ever get better now we also stress the fact that action is necessary to change an individual just talking about things thinking about things is nice but not necessary i should say it's not a necessary condition for psychotherapeutic can change change what the individual has to do in addition usually is act

and we therefore give him concrete homework assignments and get him to act these out and check up and follow to see whether he does these homework assignments and our final goal is to get the individual to learn and learn for the rest of his life to challenge and question his own basic value systems his own thinking so that he really thinks for himself he must do this particularly when he feels miserable he feels anxiety or depression or guilt or too much frustration or anything else that is negative or when he behaves very inefficiently and finally

he was able through this kind of new thinking rethinking his own assumptions to apply what we call the scientific method to the facets of human living and to be truly scientific in his behavior to question and challenge his own assumptions as we do in science and thereby to minimize or never entirely to eliminate the terrible anxiety and the atrocious hostility which unfortunately affects most of us in this existence hello gloria i'm back relentless yeah do you see this please well would you like to tell me what's bothering you most you know i think the things

that i'd like to talk to you the most about are adjusting to my single life oh mostly men i guess um as a matter of fact i don't know if i'm doing the wrong thing but i'm going to refer to your book anyway because this is what i'm impressed with the book about the intelligent woman's guide to manhunting yeah i tried to follow it and i believe in it this is why it's so fun reading your book because i'm not much of a reader but i sort of believe the same way you do but then

i've got a problem in this area the men that i do i'm attracted to or the type of man i'd like to become closely involved with i can't seem to meet or i get too shy with or something that i don't it just doesn't click the men i seem to be dating nowadays are the ones that i don't respect much the ones i don't enjoy much that seem blip and uninteresting and i don't know if it's something about me or what because i really do want to meet this kind of man well let's talk a

little about your shyness let's suppose you meet somebody who you consider eligible that you might like now let's see if we can get at the source of your shyness just what you're telling yourself to create this you meet this man and you feel shy embarrassed yes but i don't usually show that i usually act flip right back yeah i act like the other men act to me as a matter of fact i flip i don't seem near as intelligent i act like a typical dumb blonde uh i'm just i'm just not myself with him i'm

more on at ease yes well as you probably know for metro man hunting i believe that people only get emotions such as negative emotions of shyness embarrassment shame because they tell themselves something in simple exclamatory sentences now let's try to find out what you're telling yourself you're meeting this individual now what do you think you're saying to yourself before you get flipped i know what it is that i'm not i don't stand up to his expectations i'm not quite enough for him he's superior to me although i want this type of man i'm afraid i

won't have enough to attract him well that's the first part of the sentence that might be a true one because maybe he could be superior to you in some ways maybe he wouldn't be attracted to you but that would never upset you if you were only saying that i think he may be superior to me now you're adding a second sentence to that which is if this is so that would be awful well not quite so extreme is that because i thought about that too it's usually i've missed my chance again because when i want

to become if i want to show the very best of myself because i think i have self-confidence that i have enough to offer but when i get afraid like that then i show all the bad qualities i i'm flip i'm then i'm i'm so much on the defensive that i can't show my good qualities and it's like i miss my chance again there was a good opportunity to be close to this man and i lost it up again all right but even let's suppose you're saying that and i think you really are but you must

be saying something else too because if you were just saying hell i missed my chance again you'd say all right next time i'll take advantage of what i learned this time and do it a little better now you still must be saying if you feel shame embarrassment shines there's something pretty bad about your error in missing your chance again i don't know if this falls in contact with what you're saying but the thing i do feel is that i get suspicious then am i the type of woman that will only appeal to the ones that

are to not my type of guy anyway is there something wrong with me am i never going to find the kind of man i enjoy i always seem to get the other ones all right now you're getting closer to what i'm talking about because you're really saying if i am this type of woman that none of these good eligible males are going to appeal to then that would be awful i'd never get what i want and that would really be something right focused plus i don't like thinking of myself that way i want to put

myself on a higher standard i don't like to think that i may be just an average jane doe well let's just suppose for the second argument at the moment that that were so all right that you were an average jane though now would that be so terrible would be inconvenient it would be unpleasant you wouldn't want it but would you get an emotion like shyness embarrassment shame out of just believing that maybe i'm going to end up like jane doe i don't know i don't think he could because you still would have to be saying

on some level as i think you've just said and it would be very bad it would be terrible i would be a no good nick if i would just well i'd never get what i want if i were just a jane doe and if i'd have to accept that i'd never get what i want and i don't want to live the rest of my life with just icky men well not necessarily so you'd never you really mean your chances would be reduced because we know some icky girls who get some splendid men though yeah you

see so you're generalizing there you're saying it probably would be that i'd have a more difficult time but then you're jumping through therefore i'd never get it all you see the catastrophizing there that you jump to yes but it feels that way to me at the time it seems like forever that's right but isn't that a vote of non-confidence in you an essential vote of non-confidence yes and the non-confidence is because you're saying one i don't want to miss out on things i would like to get the kind of a man i want and be

a in your word superior kind of girl who gets a superior kind of man but if i don't then i'm practically on the other side of the chain completely and no good nick somebody will never get anything that i want which is quite an extreme away isn't it yeah and that's what i call catastrophizing taking a true statement and there is a good deal of truth in what you're saying if you didn't get the kind of a man you wanted that it would be inconvenient annoying frustrating which it really would be and then saying i'd

never possibly get what i want and even beyond that you're really saying and then i couldn't be a happy human being aren't you really saying that on some level but let's just look at that let's just assume the worst as virgin russell once said years ago assume the worst that you never got at all for whatever the reasons may be the kind of a man you want look at all the other things you could do in life to be happy well i don't like the whole process i don't even like as i'm going through it

i don't all right even if it wasn't a catastrophe yeah even if i didn't look at it as a catastrophe i don't like the way i'm living right now for example when i meet somebody that i'm interested in that could have some potential right away i find i'm not near as relaxed with him i worry more should i be friendly should i kiss him goodnight should i do this if it's just a joe doe and i don't give a darn i can be anything i want to be i turn out to be more of a

person when i'm not as concerned i don't like the way i'm uh well you're not you're not really concerned you're over concerned you're anxious because you were just concerned you do your best and you'd be saved yourself if i succeed great if i don't succeed talk right now i won't get what i want but you're over concerned or anxious you're really saying again that's what we said a moment ago if i don't get what i want right now i'll never get it and that would be so awful that i've got to get it right now

that causes the anxiety doesn't it yes or else work toward it yes but if i don't get it right now that's all right but i want to feel like i'm working toward it yes but you want to guarantee i hear my trained ears hear you saying i would like a guarantee of working towards it and there are no certain well no doctor ellis i i don't know why i'm coming out that way what i really mean is i want a step toward working toward it i don't know i thought well what i was hoping is

whatever this isn't me why i don't seem to be attracting these kind of men why i see more on the defense of why i seem more afraid you could help me what it is i'm afraid of so i won't do it so much well my hypothesis is so far that what you're afraid of is not just failing with this individual man which is really the only thing at issue when you go out with a new and we're talking about eligible males now we'll rule out the inelastic one you're not just afraid that you'll miss this

one you're afraid that you'll miss this one and therefore you'll miss every other and therefore you prove that you are really not up to getting what you want and wouldn't that be awful you're bringing in these catastrophes well you sound more strong at it but that's similar i feel like this this is silly if i keep this up there's something i'm doing there's something i'm doing not to be as real a person with these men that i'm interested that's right you're defeating your own ends by i've done it again if i weren't so doggone anxious

about trying to hook this guy i could be more real he's going to enjoy me more if i'm real anyway so i'm only giving him the stinky part of me right how can anybody i respect respect a chooch and that's what i am when i don't really come through but look how you just devalued yourself let's just suppose for the sake of argue you kept giving the stinky part of you a human being another person who's trying to get interested in you might not like these attributes these characteristics of you but i don't think he's

going to despise you as a person what you are really doing i don't i i'm harder on myself than i think that's exactly what they don't like me there's not enough to me right and i say before if people just didn't like you and you went through enough of them and it would be hard to go for enough but it would be possible you'd eventually find one who did like you and whom you like but as long as you devalue yourself personally in your own eyes you complicate the problem enormously and you're not focusing on

how can i be myself change the traits if you for example had a let us just say a mangled arm and you wouldn't accept your whole person your being because of this mangled arm then you would focus so much on that mangled arm that you wouldn't be able to do things that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do that's almost what i do yes yes you see that exactly so you're taking a part of you an arm and focusing almost completely on that in just to bring it down to our own conversation taking a part

of you your shyness your not being yourself with males and focusing so much on that part that you're almost making the whole of you and you get a an awful picture of your total self because of this defective part and we're assuming you and i that it is the fact that we're not glossing over and say no you're doing all right you're not doing that well right now if you could accept yourself for the time being with this defective part with these attributes and not beat yourself over the head as i feel you definitely are

doing then it becomes a relatively simple problem to work and practice to work and practice against this negative attribute in other words let's get back to that now how to be yourself let's just suppose for the moment that you really were fully accepting yourself with your failings all right you know you're going to go out you know you're going to screw up with the next man man after that and all probability but you're saying all right i have to go through a learning process that's too bad i won't be very good during this while but

i'll do it just as i would at ice skating where i'd have to fall on my neck for a few times before i learned to ice skate okay now let's suppose that then if that was so you were really accepting you you go out take the risks of being you because after all if you do win one of these men you have to be yourself you're not winning them for a day you're not winning them for a fair i assume you want to marry one of these individuals eventually and be with them along with a

long relationship i don't think so much marriage all right a long relationship in the course of which you couldn't act so we don't want to give you some acting well that he'll later find out was a role playing sort of thing so you have to eventually be yourself now if you really weren't so disturbed about these present current failings views you could go out and be this self of yours ask yourself what do i really want to do with this man to help enjoy him and have him help and join me because that's the basic

function of life enjoyment which we tend to lose and you'd force yourself to take the risk of being that because if you succeeded great if you failed too bad either you're not for him or he may even not be for you because don't forget you said before when these men reject you you assume right away it must be my doing and my fault you know they may not be your cup of tea and you may not be their cup of tea and it's nobody's fault it's just true incompatibility yeah you see yes so if you

would really accept yourself as you are and then force yourself and if you were one of my regular patients i would give you this homework assignment and then check up on you to see whether you could force yourself to open your big mouth and be you for a while even though it hurt with these males you would find that a you would start being yourself and gradually lopping off these inefficiencies which incidentally are the result of not being you but watching yourself from the outside while you're trying to be you which is almost impossible because

you can't spy on yourself and still be yourself very well at the same time no but it will become like a habit after a while if you took the risks and forced yourself to as i said open your big mouth and even though you thought maybe it'll come out badly maybe he won't like me maybe i'll lose him completely and so on and so forth then you'd start swinging in the groove and being what you want to be and i would almost guarantee that you'd become more practiced and less inefficient especially in terms of the

shyness because you wouldn't be focusing on oh my god isn't this awful how bad i am you would be focusing on what a nice individual this is and how can i enjoy him which is the oh the focus well you're seeing my position the opposite way right how can i be more attractive to him and how can he be pleased by me because underneath if i am not then i cannot enjoy myself i refuse to accept myself unless i attract and win this good individual isn't that what you basically yeah then i even go further

dr ellis when uh when there is one of these men i come in contact with and i find that i want to call a bit more of a relationship well if he accepts me and we're going along pretty great i find myself constantly on the defensive constantly watching the way i sit not drinking too much the whole time instead of just relaxing and saying you'll either like mary doesn't the motion psychotherapy you're giving a very good illustration of why other directives to this business other directiveness doesn't pay because if you really are defining yourself in

terms of others estimation of you then even when you're ahead of the game and you're winning them you have to be saying to yourself will i win them today will i win them tomorrow will i keep winning them and you're always focused on am i doing the thing to please him and you never are yourself you never have a self well if you're saying what do i want to do in life there must be some human beings who would like me the way i am let's see if this is one of those human beings then

that's the only way is that that you can be you see now we haven't got too much time now so let's try to get it off on a constructive note of more concretely what you can do you ask before where you can go how you can meet new people i'd say that i don't know this particular area but it's almost any place if you could do what we are talking about really take risks and focus on what you want out of life and on the fact that it's going to take time which unfortunately it does

and if it's not awful and you're not awful while it's taking that time then you can leave yourself open unshyly to all kinds of new encounters and these encounters can take place on buses while waiting for a streetcar if they have streetcars in this area at cocktail parties anyway you can talk to people who look eligible you can ask your friends to get your eligible mails and so on but the main thing is that you have to add like yourself while you're not doing badly and b not be intolerant against conditions which are bad and

i'm agreeing with you that they are now as i said i would give you if you were a patient of mine the homework assignment of deliberately very deliberately going out and getting yourself into trouble in other words taking the most eligible males you can find at the moment and forcing yourself risking yourself to be you are you saying even if it were like if i went into a doctor's office to start a conversation with him because he was attractive to me or he appealed to me right i didn't go so far as to starting out

a conversation with him a personal one why not if he's an eligible individual any kind of an eligible individual i know you accept that but that seems awfully brazen well let's suppose it is brazen what have you got to lose the worst he can do is reject you and you don't have to reject you if you were thinking along the lines that we've been 25 minutes or so so yeah now can you try to do that i think i think so in order to give me a spirit to go out and see you're right that's

all i can do is be rejected right and that needs you intact it just leaves you unfortunately not for the moment getting what you want so you try to the one you've already read and i'll be very interested in finding out what happened oh i'm excited about it well it was certainly very nice meeting you clara thank you doctor i enjoyed talking with this interesting and i think highly courageous patient and thought that it gave a recession gave a pretty good illustration of a fairly typical session of rational emotive psychotherapy how is it typical in

several ways in the first place i was able rather rapidly and quickly to get to some of what i think of the philosophic cause of the patient's disturbances to show her that the reason she is feeling shy and ashamed and afraid in this instance is because even though partially unwittingly she is defining herself in a very negative way or devaluing herself by blaming herself too much for imperfect behavior because perfectionism is the root of most human evils and she was showing some fairly typical perfectionistic notions so very quickly as is usually done in rational emotive

psychotherapy we skip some of the asides we skip going back into the history as some of the psychoanalysts do and we skip some of the transference relations between us and the patient and we skip some of the non-verbal expression not that we think these things are quite unimportant but we think there are relatively little relevance to the basic core of the patient's disturbance which is her philosophy of life and typically again this patient showed both anxiety and low frustration tolerance which most patients showed and these were intertwined and again very usually she was then beating

herself over the head blaming herself condemning herself for feeling these kinds of feelings now she did not see very clearly at least i thought so at the beginning of the session exactly what declarative sentences and exclamatory sentences she was telling herself to create these feelings and i endeavored to show her some of these sentences and what could be done about it and among other things i also though briefly because this is just one brief session tried to give her a homework assignment that she could go and get her teeth into and actively try to do

to de-propagandize herself by going out and taking risks which normally up to now she hasn't been taking that much of it's interesting to note that again quite typically in this session although i was attacking fairly vigorously the patient's attitudes and philosophies she did not feel an attack on her she felt that i was supporting her if anything and she ended up i thought rather optimistically feeling that i had given her several ideas of what she could do in the future again rather typically in this session i kept persuading the patient and attacking her ideas and

showing her that her philosophy of life not only was such and such but that if she stuck to this kind of philosophy she had to get negative and self-defeating results from it and then i kept persistently going on even though a time she became defensive and wasn't quite accepting by any means what i was saying i didn't let this bother me but kept going on against her basic core system her value system because this is again what bothers patients that they give up very easily on attacking their own negative evaluations of themselves and therefore they

persist forever now there were limitations of course especially in terms of time to the session and these limitations did have some effect for example there was enough not enough time for repetition in several sessions i would have gone over much of the same material until i was sure that it would sunk in then i would have had time to get feedback from the patient to see whether she really understood in action in particular what i was talking about and whether she was following it up or leading herself up some other diverting pathway which people can

do there was no time to emphasize that she would have to continually re-assess her evaluations of herself and her general philosophies and do rethinking for the rest of the life there was no time to show the patient very much that even during this session in relation to me and what she was saying about herself that she was displaying her bad attitudes toward herself and finally there was no occasion of course since this was an individual session to see how she related specifically to other non-therapists as she would in group therapy and in the midst of

this group situation to show her exactly what was going on and what she could do about it but i do feel hopeful about the session and think that perhaps i was able at least to give the patient a few ideas which she could then go out and work on on her own because unless patients do work themselves with the material that we therapists give them in psychotherapy nothing eventually happens it isn't any magic that we have for them but we can give them certain catalytic ideas and influences which then if they work and practice that

work and practice that will do them good for the rest of their lives [Music] you