Toto Wolff Exclusive: My Untold Story of Traumatic Childhood, F1 Dominance & Hamilton Relationship

Mercedes our Crown Constructors Champions backto back championships we are not taking our food off the bed that's what I'm talking about guys welcome back to high performance goodness we've got some huge breaking news Hamilton will leave hton is going to be joining a Ferrari I sent a text to Fred verer saying you're taking our dri I heard the bells ringing two weeks before so no energy spent trying to persuade to stay I've had much worse in my life happening like real drama trauma this is not even moving the needle my father got very ill with

a brain cancer when I was very young six or seven years old but I wouldn't be here if that wouldn't have happened I'd like to talk about the impact of 2021 what happened is inexcusable just the the anger of of that moment the anger on a on a person we will prevail we will overcome I thought you were going to sign Max for stappen this episode is supported by huel well Toto welcome back to high performance thank you for having me again so much has changed since you were last on the show obviously one huge

thing has changed this season which is the departure of Lewis Hamilton and I wanted to start with a quote that I read in your new book where talking about Lewis leaving you said I like the situation so I heard um the bells ringing two weeks before did you um um rumors yeah the old man science called me and said this is what's happening really yeah and then there were a few drivers that rang me up that didn't before so I thought okay this is there's something going on there and then I sent a text to

Fred vur saying you're taking our driver question mark didn't get any response very unusual for Fred he's a good friend uh so yeah we I saw it coming but then obviously when Lis L arrived in the house like he did so many years before and then we had a bit of a small talk like we always do about about um the Christmas holidays and all of that and uh then I said well we recruiting from Ferrari now we got this guy and Lou was oh there's something I need to tell you and uh yeah when

he said that that initial moment was a little bit of so this is really happening I can't imagine you anywhere else than Mercedes but in you know instantly it's like okay what are we doing with this yeah and um yeah that is a that is always opportunity like I said before so in that twoe window before the news was confirmed by Lewis himself did you not want to did I would be so tempted just to pick up the phone to him straight away and say hey come on what's Happening no I think I you know

that that was a situation which I wanted to just see how it was how it was happening yeah and and leave it leave it to him and to Fred to tell me that they were doing this so I think one of the the interesting things about your role is that people will always look to you to have the answer right in a moment like that the book actually says that Toto in the hours after Lewis's news Toto displayed it says an air of calm Assurance how do you project an air of calm Assurance when something

as big as that is happening and I kind of wonder how you're actually feeling on the inside in that moment well I had much worse in my life happening like real drama uh and Trauma this is not even moving the needle now L is a friend and will forever be a friend we've been we've had 12 years in the team um together uh so that was just an unusual thought of uh this is ending but not challenging in in whatever way in whichever way so um no that that wasn't a problem it's just a new

situation um it has risks and opportunities risks in the sense of you know this is a how do I inform the sponsors as quickly as possible because it was leaking and uh on the other side what are we doing about about next year so no energy spent trying to persuade him to stay no I think if if someone decides to go then you need to let them go yeah and that you had a chat with B Kola a long time ago and he's a friend I said what do you do if this and that player

leaves and he said what do you mean I do I said well do you try to convince them to stay no somebody thinks he can play elsewhere better or earns more then you just got to let them go and it is something that I that I embrace in the same way here somebody wants to go then let's make it as good as possible for each of the parties so then it becomes about what happens next how do you make big decisions like Kimmy Antonelli replacing Hamilton what's the process that you go through so you are

confident in your your decision- making process the because of my more difficult upbringing I don't struggle to take decisions it's actually something that comes that comes quite natural to me um there is an instinctive response um internal response that I have with myself and that was literally that's the opportunity for kimy and on the other side there was another F2 season to go and lots of testing for kimy so you have to in a way stand back and say hold on a minute that's your instinctive reaction so that's probably going to happen but there could

be breaking points where you should be rationally and logically acting and then obviously I'm picking the brains of all the all the good people that I that I work with here in Mercedes and all also talking to all Marcus at Mercedes in stutgart and picking their brains is important become before coming to a final conclusion and the that decision that was made was with Ola and was also in the room with Gwen runs our Junior program James Allison Bradley Lord and just to confirm my first initial um Instinct Instinct busy parents this one's for you

we've partnered with hu who've created the ultimate meal on the go containing 35 grams of protein 26 essential vitamins and minerals to ensure you're getting the right amount of protein essential fats carbohydrates fiber vitamins and minerals as part of a balanced diet all you've got to do is click the link in the description to unlock your offer now at hu.com highperformance it's very interesting already a couple of times when we've spoken about things that I would consider to be seismic changes for a Formula 1 team which driver do we bring in a legendary driver is

leaving you've said there are things in your past that actually don't even move the dial for you in these in these moments are you happy to talk about those things in the past yeah I'm happy to talk about it because I think when you are perceived as someone that is successful in that sense it's important to give hope to people uh that it doesn't always need to be easy uh actually adversity as tough as it is in these moments especially for a child can make you a stronger individual so when the book The Phrase That

You Use is a up upbringing tell us about that well it's a up upbringing but to no nobody else's nobody's fault it was just the circumstances my my father got very ill with a with a brain cancer uh when I was very young six or seven years old and got operated many many times until he died when I was 15 so my father wasn't really present um couldn't be present and you know as a young boy you fall in love with your father he's your hero and then you need to have those moments where you

hate your father where you actually able to um Revolt in a way and I had none of that um only only anger and uh on the same time my my mother was a doctor and she tried to you know survive um herself and that's why my sister and I were pretty much on our own I need to I needed to look after her but I I'm a to Total peace with that now and I also said to my mother there you have no fault in that it was just uh every body had to look after

themselves what your memories then of of your dad my memories of my dad are that um he was a a very um charismatic intelligent uh father he jumped the class because he was so good academically um and um he was well-liked and um and that's pretty much it as a father I I was very close to him when we when we were were young but then obviously when you go through such a dramatic illness where slowly but surely your personality changes um uh the the many last years the the relationship was pretty pretty bad but

not to his fault and not to mine I think it was just that as a young man you then kind of have to distance yourself to not be um to not be emotionally dragged into more pain and how did you do that well it was simply trying to be an adult and run my life myself and for my sister and what age would you have been at that point when you realized you kind of need to take control um I wouldn't know exactly I was asked that a while ago but probably between 10 and 12

yeah somewhere around that so we we often look at traumatic events like that and people will instantly talk about the trauma and the sadness and the upset we we far rarely talk about what that has given you on the good side so what did that give the man sitting in front of me today that has made him into the leader that that we will know I think um overcoming um drama trauma humiliation uh kind of creates maybe that more um more motivation uh to prove that uh you you are worth um um trying to it

overcompensates in order to um maybe a feeling of feeling inadequate or or um or having being a victim and I see that with many successful people that there was some kind of event or situations that scarred them and caused pain now having said that there is also very many successful people that are had very happy upbringings my wife had a wonderful had wonderful parents and a wonderful family and she's still in her own way um doing very well but maybe more than the terminology of successful are doing very well I think it's about being a

happy adult and having a great let's say you we're not happy every day but enjoying what you do what you work and um being able to rely on your on your friends and family so I think the two can go hand in hand but there's many examples that I have witnessed where people went through these negative events and that shaped them and made them who they were who they are listen we've spoken to so many people on this show where the feeling we have at the end is that trauma leads to Triumph you know we

talk often about post-traumatic stress but there is also a lot of research into the world of post-traumatic growth and that actually for someone that's been through what you went through as a young young man it lights a fire in you that people who haven't been through that trauma almost can't get there right and this this idea that just because something is hard for you doesn't actually mean that it's bad for you I actually I'm sort of sitting here wondering if your dad hadn't passed away when you were young if you hadn't had to go through

that trauma I kind of wonder whether you'd be here now yeah maybe not because um for me the worst of all situations was that I was a a poor kid um in an environment um where where there was wealth I was going to a private school which we couldn't afford so there was an instance where my sister and I were called out of class to the head head master um at in the in the early afternoon and he told us you got to leave the school the fees are not paid so I had to go

back into class uh to the Delight of my friends that were really happy for me saying you're so lucky you can leave the school but I took my school back met my sister who was 10 in the in in in basically in the lobby and had to take the drum home 45 minutes and explain to her why we were going home and not finishing the day and so this financial hardship plus the family situation created a a a drive in me to you know be self- responsible become an adult really quickly look after my family

financially and emotionally different to what I had so um definitely I wouldn't have I wouldn't be here if that wouldn't have happened if I wouldn't have felt that degree of in in inadequateness you say is that a word in front of my friends inadequacy and my inadequacy in front of my friends and and and environment do you still have that feeling no I think I'm getting over it slowly but surely um I didn't kind of trust the success that I had in my 20s 30s 40s how do you mean um yeah I'm I'm always I

always stared into an abuse tomorrow could be the end of everything tomorrow we start losing tomorrow I could be losing the my money my marriage could be over somebody could fall ill and that's why I have to keep going I have to keep going I have to keep going um and that's got gotten a little bit better now after I've become 50 because now one thing is clear I'm already over half of my time uh I hope so in any case um and so I I've gone through the worst hopefully and how much has has

therapy helped with this ability to not catastrophize like you used to I think um speaking to someone professional my main target wasn't to not catastrophize because I think that is important for me as a personality um always seeing the worst case scenario I'm a glass half EMP person um and I think that keeps you on your toes seen many people fail that believe they're the real deal and nothing could prob possibly harm them and they were walking over water and that's why I don't want to stop in a way thinking about tomorrow could be really

bad um doesn't mean my I'm a miserable person all along but it keeps my skepticism um intact so talking to someone was more about over overcoming past trauma uh overcoming emotions that I couldn't really analyze I've um suffered like L said I've suffered from periods of depression from the age of 18 onwards couldn't kind of Define what that was why was I feeling so dark and when that got um um when that got really strong uh that I couldn't handle it myself anymore I started to speak with um with a psychiatrist and psychologist later on

and that really helped me to analyze why I was feeling um that way and how the tools that were given to me how to uh how to utilize these moments of reflection and introspection um but not dragging on with the suffering a lot and huge credit to you for talking like this because I think people who are in a the position that you're in often don't want to show what the world sometimes perceives as a weakness I believe talking like this is an Incredible strength right but it also provides strength for other people I fear

that sometimes we dance around the truth with these things a little bit people say I didn't feel very good well that leaves other people wondering am I do I have depression do I have mental health problems you know how do these things actually feel so that for me this is a huge topic because so often I had the feeling that I was alone with that and that would be a hindrance for me ever being successful uh as a as a young kid I couldn't comprehend why I was feeling bad uh at times and and that

kind of passes but when you grow older those moments become um sadder and became become last for longer time and and I distinctively remember that I was invited um to an Formula 1 Afterparty in the early 2000s I must have been 29 30 years old and I was doing well with my Venture Capital company but I was at that time suffering uh my marriage wasn't going very good and um um and I felt I felt terrible for a prolonged time and just would you mind just telling us when you say I felt terrible what was

the feeling the feeling is that you can't sleep properly you're waking up with a sense of Darkness that uh uh of of um you know it's very difficult to describe that actually in a way of there is no hope um for for your future and so the the event was I was invited to that after party Amber Lounge on a Sunday night in Monaco after the Grand Prix and obviously I didn't know anybody in formul one I was with a friend and I saw all of these people partying I remember there was Martin whitmar and

I think Jenson was there um dri was you know lots of very successful people that were in the media Spotlight that apparently had it all and I stood there and said I can never achieve that kind of success with what I have it will always be my limitation and I felt if I would have listened to somebody out of that circus who I perceived as having it all to saying I'm suffering too and I had those periods it would have given me great hope yeah and now 20 years later I've overcome or I've passed their

successes I things have gone really well from a sporting side and I think there may be someone that's looking at me and saying he hasn't got the limitation that I have and I realized it's a superpower to have that sensitivity that can drag you very low Because You're vulnerable but it also gives you that superpower of reading a room easy of understanding somebody else's personality and how that affects your interaction um feeling Vibes in a much better way and running an organization fundamentally because you care about the the individual so I wouldn't want to miss

any of those moments correction I would wish to have some of the superpower that I have without these moments but that doesn't go you can't be all there if you haven't got that and but it was every time I came out I realized how important it was because you just think more about yourself why is it that I'm feeling like this what is it that I can do to improve improve my relationships what is it I need to achieve to make me happy is it what I'm doing right now or does it need some kind

of change or recalibration you don't do that if you're down the middle every day it's just a comfort zone there will also be people that now watch this going well he seems fine now and I'm still in this place so I'll never achieve what totto achieves very good point because there have been people that are in the in the media that have come out and have said I suffered from depression and I from anxiety I think it was important that um Simon biles said that I remember um in our environment Lando spoke about it Louis

uh most recently George said he was speaking to someone but then if you right in the middle of such episode you see those individuals or you listen to us at the moment say well P seems happy now the truth is it always ends even if you can't see light at the end of the tunnel because things are so bad it always ends I didn't believe it would end that this sometimes I had the support of my friends and family Susie has been tremendous he kept the system going when I was not capable of doing it

um it always ends you know this is a phase of your life that can be days weeks months maybe even more than a year but if you're open-minded about looking after yourself and speaking to somebody else seeking professional help not go to the BB and have five beers with a mate who hasn't got an understanding what's happening if you speak to someone this is going to pass but it doesn't mean that you're not vulnerable for this to happen again I think I am if I would have family family or life situation that would be really

difficult or bad I am I could be falling into this again now when it comes to formula one like you said does move the dial nothing that happens in Formula One or in my professional life would ever trigger such a period um because it's just on the scale of what I had as a child or as a teenager that's nothing when did you last have a a difficult episode 2020 right um when the Music Stops and you someone that actually likes to move um that was not good you know jumping out of the hamster wheel

because you want to you decide is a conscious decision the hamster will suddenly stopping from 100 to zero that was very difficult for me in combination of a period where I wasn't sure but I wanted to continue to be a team principal in Formula One I've been a venture capitalist and private Equity investor for 20 plus years in my life I really enjoyed doing that um looking at various businesses um speaking to managers or entrepreneurs and seeing uh what they could achieve and being part of that and now I was a one trick pony in

Formula One um and I it took me eight or nine months to come to the conclusion that I wanted to do this and because I found my Niche between the racing and the business side what I do covers all of that but it took a long long time someone who's openly spoken about therapy what was the thing or a moment when a therapist said something to you that almost brought a moment of enlightenment so that was a moment that was my old therapist Kenny um who said when I gave the example of somebody else of

that person isn't feeling hasn't got the limitations that I have because he wouldn't be so successful he said how do you know are you in his brain would anybody think that of you and it was like oh yeah outside shine doesn't mean inside happiness yeah still to come Toto wolf opens up on leis Hamilton Max for stappen and the season they went head-to-head whether you're an Olympic gold medalist or just trying to perform in your job there is one thing we all have in common we all poo but when was the last time you really

talked about your poo like firm poos soft poos smelly poos weird color guys can we just stop laughing okay this is serious stuff because everyone poos but nobody talks about it because Pooh feels taboo every High performer I talk to gives a about their Pooh right because they know that gut health is a window to their overall health it's crucial to their success and that is why I take biotic from Heights I know I'm giving my gut what it needs to perform at its best plus my poos are looking great which I understand might be

a little too much information but when it comes to high performance nothing is taboo not even your poo so why don't you join tens of thousands of high performers and try Heights today with an exclusive 20% off your first month only with this podcast go to heights.com HP or enter the code hp20 at checkout and see the difference that Heights could make to your health so even the events of the end of the season in 2021 when people around the world were livid with what was happening the experiences that you've been through meant you felt

what angry not anything like depressed or sad just angry um Angry of that that that an individual was able to take an ace Championship away from the best driver in the world by by a decision now you have to put that um into context you know there's dictators uh around the world uh mad politicians that cause so much pain and so much harm that is in no way comparable to Lis losing the a title or us as a team um but it was just the the anger of of that moment the anger on a on

a person and um not emotionally draining and even LS he learned to manage his emotions very strongly even Lis after few days was was in a in an okay space now that's still that thing still goes with us and is with us because of the very unfairness that happened on that particular day um but it is not like in our mind all the time it makes us suffer obviously we've just spoken about the fact that your own experiences give you an emotional intelligence and empathy and understanding for others did you not have that for Michael

Massie did you did you not put yourself in his position and think okay that's a hard place to be I might have done the same or uh um I really try to speak to Michael and and and and guide him all along the year and speak to him and say listen I've been in this sport for a long time uh listen to the drivers don't always be stubborn in your decision making don't be arrogant uh and I tried that for the good of the sport and obviously also for us as a team not to be

vulnerable to situ ations that could be totally detrimental so in that sense uh this is just you know what happened is inexcusable now you could say yeah the empathy should make me realize how he feels I realize how he feels and I know that's not good and bad but he could have thought about it all year long when people not only me Tred to support in in the right way so sometimes you have to just realize that someone is just um doing his own thing or taking his own decision so for me I don't care

about it anymore you know we now you and I speak about it we waste three minutes of our time but he has no relevance so we're nearly three years on from that day how often do you think about it um for sure every week yeah there's a moment every week where I think about it but but I mainly think about it because I think Lewis should have deserved to be the greatest of all times with eight world championship titles and you can argue all along about that year I think Max and Lewis were deserving Champions

there were instances during the year where Max lost some points that he shouldn't have lost you look at Silverstone today um you look at the crash in moner both of them had so both deserving Champions but on that particularly particular up um afternoon in Abu Dhabi it was unfair yeah you obviously have the car in your reception I I wondered when I came in I saw that and immediately knew this is this is the car that raced it's the very car isn't it from the Abu Dhabi Grand PRI you don't feel tempted to get that

car out of reception and put something else in there um it's a special car because it's also a car that turned the situation around after Brazil where we thought the championship is gone was a very good car after the summer and it is a card that reminds all of us that things could go wrong very quickly but things could be right also very quickly it's basically how life goes and that car is a stark reminder of all the joy and all the pain um a situation can bring with it I'd like to talk about the

impact on Lewis because in the book um Bono his race engineer says after the British Grand Prix which Lewis won this season he said it was 945 days days since Lewis's last win as time passed the doubt crept in for Lewis as much as me in our minds we started to ask if we were still capable how how aware were you that Lewis was struggling after that that race in 2021 Louis and I um speak a lot we text a lot all along and I knew that he was in an okay place because he immediately

left um spent some time in the Caribbean after that race and uh you know was doing his Sports and kite surfing so you said you knew a few days later he was like how what happened a few days after that when you thought actually lwis is okay here um well I he went to some friends's place in the Caribbean and they told me he's okay and um and he took his distance so I was also proud because he's come a long way um to cope with difficult moments that he had in the past and that

we had you know there were times where where he you know I was helping him um uh to overcome such situations and the same the same way the other the other way around is also what made our relationship so strong that we've seen each other on the worst moments so I knew he was he was he was better and when it comes to doubting I think it's we have a similar mindset is you staring in the abys every day you you you handang hang on for dear life you give it all you have you fight

for becoming better for for um meeting your own expectations trying to be you know to to to overcome literally everything and when you don't win for such a long time you start to doubt and um what I've what I did all along is you know trying to take the reducing the doubt by saying you're you're the greatest driver that this world that has ever seen and why should anything be different the car is not good enough the car is unpredictable but I don't see you in any different way than five years ago and how often

would you would you talk to Lewis about the doubts and the fears and the time it's been since that last win regularly I wouldn't I wouldn't want to say it here in public but regularly we have those exchanges and very open you know he's a driver that or someone that would say to me you know I don't think that that was also in public he's come out and criticize his own drivings at time driving at times and say it was unacceptable it wasn't good enough that's a that's also showing his strengths to be able to

speak about non-performance to speak about depression or about mental health you know if you're strong enough to come out saying I don't feel good at times or I feel really bad at times and or I'm not able to perform that needs strengths and and and that shows how strong he is as a driver and as a as a person so when you see Lewis coming out and saying I'm not I'm not delivering what I know I can you're almost happy that he's able to get himself to that point and publicly admit that sort of thing

it takes pressure off the team you know he has some devoted fans that will always seek the default of the team and he takes pressure off the team um but he's also very honest and transparent about when somebody gets it wrong either him or or the team's performance or anybody else and I think that is that is that means being authentic and credible with authentic and credible in mind there's a there's a lovely line you've used where you've said you want to create a space here where nobody feels humiliated or inadequate that's in a team

that is every single week being tested to its limits so I'd love to know from you for the many people listening to this who lead businesses work in businesses or even people in their own marriages with their children and their family how do we create a space where people aren't humiliated they aren't inadequate but we're also still asking them for the very best they can give us on from the teams let's say professional side what what we say is we don't blame the problem we don't blame the person we blame the problem if somebody's making

a mistake in whatever function fundamentally it's the leader's fault because haven't I invested enough time in developing a person giving him the right tools um the right education the right support So a good example is when you have a slow pit stop and um and a mechanic fails to tighten the wheelnut in in time uh that's not the mechanic's fault at all because it is either the equipment that doesn't work adequately which is was the case for us for many years um or the bit stop training wasn't like it should have been um so it

is it's a it's a problem of the process not the person and that's why we need to protect the people because all the world is looking at Formula One um all the fans are looking at formul one and the initial reaction of any individual is to find somebody who is at fault the culprit it's your fault because that is like almost like a pressure release valve but that's too easier as a reaction much better is it is to say what is it that I've done wrong in that situation what could have I what could I

have done to prevent such thing and if you're able to look at yourself first first and introspect before blaming someone I think that's a that's a good step the other the other thing is that I call it tough love as long as you share objectives with someone and you talk about these objectives and you come to the point of saying that's how I see what we would like to achieve uh you can have opposite perceptions and standpoints and perspectives so I kind of encourage even difficult discussions where someone say I believe it is a and

you say it's B because what I can tell you for sure that person is not 100% right or 100% wrong it can be very nuanced it can be a 6040 discussion um decision so I would always encourage to approach such such a situation with the feeling of curiosity rather than combat because our brain plays little games with us the emotional part uh will tell you this is I don't like what I hear I'm going to not listen anymore to the other person's argument you're just building your own sentence already what you're going to respond and

that is combat not curiosity so making sure that you can have a tough conversation be in a professional environment or at home acknowledging that somebody else who is hopefully not an idiot has a different perspective and to say why is that person seeing the world like this why is that person thinking that that I'm wrong you come to a conclusion that maybe there's a certain truths to it and um and that's what I'm trying to have in you know in my private life and in my professional life and how different are you as a leader

from the one that I spoke to three or four years ago because at that time you were the man that just built a car won the races won the title right year after year after year so I'm very interested in how you've changed your leadership style what you've learned about leadership but most importantly what you've learned about yourself in three difficult seasons a lot and I think developing every day uh and becoming better is something that I really like as a as a mindset in everything whatever you do whether it's at your job in your

relationships uh in sports just trying to be better the next how do you do that though thinking about it every day what is it that I can improve in in in for for for me for my life for my family for my for colleagues what is it that I can contribute where where did I did I spot shortcomings in myself or gaps every single day you know when I'm in sometimes in Trivial situations I'm not looking after myself enough I'm not eating well when I should I I I'm going to the gym and I'm not

concentrated enough or I'm in a meeting and my mind is wandering somewhere else like literally every dissect the day into everything and try to improve that so and I enjoy doing that so it's not that I'm just knocking myself down all the time but I think I learned so much during this time because I went through like a roller coaster of thoughts of why that was happening and coming to the conclusion that the team with all its intelligence knowhow infrastructure wasn't able to understand why the car was not going fast that was quite a that

was quite a new realization of mine because I thought if you put a few um um parameters in in place some pillars uh you you wouldn't fail yeah um well you probably thought you knew the secret right because it was working every season yeah I think when you sometimes it's it's good to simplify to be successful in Formula One you need a set of the best drivers you can't compromise on that yeah you need to have an engine supplier partner that has all the budgets and the people to play the top of his game uh

you need the infrastructure chain the equipment in your Formula One team that means you need to have the financial resources to do this you need to have the culture and leadership in in the team you need to have the competence and management capability of the top layer of management and the creativity and innovation of the people that are coming up and all of that needs to be budgeted for and you need to have the fighting funds for that and as long as you have all that you could have blips of non-performance but eventually things were

going to be all right we had all of that and still we weren't successful we were beaten by someone else we were beaten by a team that formidable team or formidable teams yeah um and just come to the realization that sometimes things need to change organizations that performed maybe don't do anymore maybe not all of it maybe a little bit um what is it that I came short of uh most importantly as a thought am I still the same leader that I was before did I go from great to good good is not good enough

in foral one um do I have the same drive and motivation and anger that I had at the beginning of my career and finding answers to all of this and I did um I did and had to change as a personality because for me pressure was always a useful tool to operate on myself and then also on on everyone around me whilst being empathetic for the person pressure didn't yield any results on the contrary I upset people that were really doing the outmost and give it their best to F to be successful and I had

to change in that perspective would you give us an example of a time when you did that unintentionally you upset people yeah last year we we had a good race in Austin in terms of performance we finished second catching up to Marx we were disqualified for a right right height infringement and I'm still okay with such situation because we we had a quick car so that was good and then we went to Brazil expecting that it would go like the year before where that was the only race where we really good at and we miserably

failed and I was so angry about ourselves and and myself you know this is my team it's not that I'm accusing anybody else that I expressed that anger by saying this car doesn't deserve to win a race and by saying that I disrespected all the work from people that were they were giving every day um in in trying to make that car faster and I upset um someone and um that was a that was a big shake for me how did you deal with it I um acknowledged comprehended uh and promised to do better in

the future so what have you changed then because just doing the same thing again and again and expecting the results to change is never going to be the answer yeah Einstein yeah correct and I know a lot of people watch this show because they want to hear some real specific tangible examples of we did this we did this we did this so would you mind taking us through a few of the things that that you have changed to try and find the success that you've had in the past um I I believe that where where

I come from you know with my past I have to be in control of situations and um and I believe being a micromanager is not something that you need to um that you you need to be ashamed for for me micromanagement doesn't necessarily mean doing everything but knowing about most of the stuff but accepting that people give it all they have and they are intelligent and they know but in that specific situation they fail and giving them room to um to sort the situation out that's something that I learned because in the past I would

continue to pressure and pressure and pressure that is one example um the other one was also keeping my own emotions under control I'm very passionate about the sport and what makes me so angry if I don't meet my own expectations I don't care what anybody else is but I I feel what I would like to achieve on that particular day or that weekend or throughout the campaign and falling short is that anger that that comes out combined it with the fact that I believe somebody else is doing us wrong Us in terms of the team

my tribe that can come to situations that um that just create too much emotion and I try to limit that you know in the past I would smash my headphones when I felt that um we lost the championship don't do this anymore and I'm capable that after bad qualifying and also after bad race to first uh get myself in an emotional better State before lashing out so what do you say to yourself in those moments after a bad moment on track before you address the team we see you sometimes sitting there in the garage everyone

else has gone off to get their work done and you're just sitting what questions are you asking yourself so there is this anger on myself why that has gone wrong but giving myself time to come down take a de break deep impressed um that allows you to almost take a step back from the immediate uh moment and uh then immediately think of what is it that we could have done differently what is it that that we should be changing going forward what is it that I need to contribute and give it to the situation so

immediately my thinking about the future takes over from the current U bad situation and so I've been I've been doing that for a long time I just stay in the garage in good or in bad um I don't go out I don't go on the podium or anything like this I've been in moner because it was just out of my garage and my son wanted to see the podium but otherwise I need to be for myself in glor in glory and in uh and in loss but I love the line in the book about you

need to be an ultimate force to be successful so how do you balance up this idea of emotional empathy controlling what you can um not allowing the team to see actually how frustrated you're feeling but to still be an Ultimate Force what does that look like for you being an Ultimate Force I think it's just an internal feeling nothing is going to stop me and it could be difficult at times but there is nothing and there's no team that won every single Championship forever there is it's a sport it's a it's a it's a sports

team you lose and you win and you hopefully learn from it but we will prevail we will overcome what role has has self-doubt played for you in the last three years like have you have you thought again about maybe maybe leaving you you I think you need to question yourself every day am I still great on what I do is there somebody else that could be doing a better job which for me would would be easy to admit because it's my company I'm a coowner of this so if I find a better team principle I

would be the first one to say you take over and you do this doubting being insecure about that situation is important because you self reflect you you try to improve yeah if you don't doubt yourself if I would blame it on on an engineer or blame it on on a steward or God knows a race director that is the easy way out of things first you blame yourself first you check your own position is it is it right what I'm thinking how often does self-doubt creep into each day day day every day every day there's

a moment where I'm thinking am I really performing to my own expectations here should have I mean it starts from the morning have I used the morning um positively have I read you know I'm reading the news in the morning for a long time did I read the right thing to give me you know put me in a good State of Mind in order to perform in the morning or did I read some trash um like literally again dissecting everything I do is it the right thing that I'm that I'm doing I think this is

fascinating because I think that sometimes people wonder whether they can stumble into high performance whether it can just happen but you're talking here about Ultimate Force you're you're almost forced high performance into your life with constant questions constant challenge constant Improvement constant self-doubt is it not exhausting I love it I'm more prone to a bore out than a burned out my worst experiences in my life when I was an adult and I suffered is when I wasn't motivated when I didn't enjoy what I was doing when when things in a wake uh didn't excite me

um I'm really not good at holidays over more than a week 10 days need to keep myself busy but I can do that with sports for example um it's not excit it's it's not exhausting it's exciting my wife is the Same by the way so oh I know your wife and I'm I have no doubt it's a that's a high performing couple right there yeah but we are not you know these kind of uh Angry uh over motivated annoying people that need to you know be the best at all times and um we can laugh

about ourselves we enjoy we can laugh about each other not being good at something uh I decided now finally that I'm not going to do bold Sports anymore in my life because again she humiliated me in pedal and so I was never good at football pedal basketball volleyball go anything so we're not doing that anymore and uh she she takes the Mickey out of me in these situations so Susie is the winner suie is the winner in B Sports yeah that isn't that God thought you're not being good at B Sports and I had the

ultimate conf confirmation now can I talk to you about this idea of being a lifelong learner of the ability to adapt how important do you think it is to to constantly adapt and this idea that the best thinking is almost rethinking changing the way that you see the world all the time we adults we sometimes think you know we are like we are these are the strengths and weaknesses that we have I'm good at that and bad at this uh and uh we we don't believe in self-development we don't believe in the ability to change

we can fundamentally change as an adult by experiences or by by by trying and trying again giving it everything if you really if you're really Keen in in developing in a certain area you always can and I don't think that many adult think that way yeah they think they are the ready they're the finished product good or bad so now that we're with and I sorry to keep talking about it but it was a seismic moment in your career and the life of this team 2021 we had Adrian Nei on the podcast recently and I

I want to play you a quick clip and I would like to know how you now reflect on on the the rebel mercen relationship from that time so this is Adrian on high performance yeah I haven't heard that the Silver State accident between Lewis and Max um which I must admit at the time I was absolutely incandescent with Lewis because I felt it was he did it it was deliberate professional fail I think now with the benefit of hindsight and time then I I think they've been banging Wheels all the way around the lap up

to that corner Lewis went for an opportunity but she thought was there misjudged it and what happened happened um Max could have be lucky Max didn't get hurt badly hurt that accident so I I understand sort of how it happened now perhaps better and I was probably a bit harsh I was too harsh on those at so the benefit of um of hindsight and time Adrian has has changed the the kind of view he had of that season I wonder what you make of that and how you feel I mean Adrian reflects very well and

I think his intellect uh is something that that uh that shines um you always have to be able to recalibrate yourself I read something that I really liked is um a while ago um play hard forgive quickly and apologize when you're wrong and that's the way I tried to live and uh Silverstone the way he described it is is is in a way how how today you can see things these guys have been banging Wheels not only that first lap but they've been banging Wheels all along um and I think that was a moment where

the two decided of not yielding that corner and it ended up in a situation that it ended up um thankfully he wasn't hurt um I said before I couldn't have I could have reacted in a better way because I heard from uh one of the Red Bull Engineers that he was fine in that respect you know that was you know thi the Box Max is fine and we went on to win the the race and he didn't score so that was important to bounce back in the championship and I felt you know the driving at

times was not was not clean um and uh in in retrospect I should have just picked up the phone and called Y and say is he fine now y clearly would have told me his what he was thinking about that situation but that's fine but I should have as a father called the father of the driver and say just ask and I didn't now we cleared the air on that one and uh there were many more instances in that particular year that were that were not to the standards that we all expect from each other

so that's fine I suppose I suppose I think is that was a season that was so intense I mean even watching on the sofa with my 9-year-old son Sebastian named after Sebastian vetto actually who is loving formula one right we were feeling the emotion of that season and you were right in the heart of it I wonder how how you now reflect on it all these years later with the benefit of hindsight the intensity of your relationship with Christian the intensity of the relationship with Max how do you see that now this year will be

remembered as one of the let's say toughest years in Formula One between two drivers two teams um Team principles and it ended up in a situation that was overall not great for Formula 1 and uh how do I reflect about it I tried to learn uh and make sense um see what uh we could have done better yeah all along and try to try to do that so here's an interesting question then the thing you're most proud of from That season when you thought yes and the thing that you're least proud of um the most

proud was a moment after DFA decided to disqualify LS for the Sprint race in Brazil for an infringement on the rear wi which was a lapsis it wasn't there was there wasn't anything to it but they decided to do that and we all came back into the gar Garage on that evening I remember a friend of mine and um the catering girls brought us sandwiches and and music was playing and it was many of the mechanics Engineers the marketing catering people Lewis my friend gard and I and we were there and suddenly I felt so

much energy in this team and it was clear we had to win every single race until the end of the year to win this championship and that very moment that's where the lightning stried of power um that is that is something to have just been part of the of this is a is a proud moment the worst so many bad moments the one on Silverstone is an example that's probably the worst because I didn't I didn't emphas empathize enough with a father this podcast is called high performance when I think of Lewis's driving towards the

end of that 2021 season I don't think I've ever seen a driver perform to a higher level than Lewis was delivering at that time there's probably no one else on the planet apart from Lewis that's closer to his world than you would you take us into Lewis's world at that time and really explain to us why you think he was at such a high level and how he got there leis utilizes or or uses adversity and channels it into performance and that was the moment where he thought everybody's against me no one wants me to

win this championship and he took it that was different to the previous years he took it in a way of embracing it not with anger but saying rock and roll now we go and as you say the driving was just on a different different planet Max is exceptional has proven that in the years to come but in these last five or six races Louis was just dominant as he was also in the last race in Abu Dhabi controlled it all along what do you think makes him the seven time eight time you could argue world

champion what is the what's the magic he has you know what I I say now isn't isn't um wouldn't give it justice to how good he is in many I'd like to use your word magic yeah and that combines all of the skills of the genes the the talent the the the N nature nurturing from his father in the early years hard work ethic intelligence social intelligence um no fear attitude constant development of himself uh and like probably a minute more I have words for a minute more if I were to think about it because

he's a seven time world champion and won God knows how many races so in that respect there hasn't been anybody else like this I think the other thing that I'd like to mention about Lewis as well is I remember when I first stepped into the paddock in 2009 and he'd had that great 2008 season and I it was the first time i' met him at at a race weekend and I said to may you looking forward to fighting for another title and his answer straight away he went if I've still got it and I thought

wow um and I don't think people realize that self-doubt sits quite High to the surface for Lewis and actually again is a really valuable tool in his locker right absolutely what we discussed before if you doubt you question you introspect you try to improve yeah keeps you on your toes that's what makes you better if you think if you think you're the real deal then that's why you fail I've seen it over and over again with people what's the biggest thing you've learned from him the constant self-development not only in the professional function for him

it's the driving for me it's maybe running the team but also how he embraced this personal change there was a moment when we had a really difficult time in 2016 um after Nico won the race and the championship and we didn't talk to each other for a few weeks and then he came to my home because I said we have to talk and we spent many hours and we came out of this discussion it was before the Christmas party so strong that was the foundation of our relation friendship and relationship um in the years to

come but what I said to him is we cannot not speak to each other if there's something that annoys us you just have to pick up the phone you have to tell me and I'll promise to do the same because the rule with Su is if there's something that makes us angry we talk about it before we switch the light off in the evening we don't let it drag into the into the next day and um the year or two pass and we had a situation that annoyed me and I didn't call him and he

called me and said remember what you said to me we have to speak to each other and uh I said you're so absolutely right um so he reminded me of of what I said to him so the he he just he just keep what when he thinks something is really good or a good skill to have or character trait or mindset you know he just becomes that so he had to remind me actually and we see you as the leader of the team but he's the leader on his side of the garage what's impressed you

from the way you've seen him lead the team in that garage I think I really struggled with the word leader because a leader for me is that you stand above your people not with them there's so many leaders in this organization and everybody is best tries to be the best him or herself in in in the role I'm trying to contribute best as a team principal Louis is a leader as a driver um James Allison is a leader with his engineers and so many other people are leaders in the organization and only if we play

good in our position um and we share those objectives they're going to be successful this is um metaphor that we have is uh we're not like a bunch of five-year-olds playing football all running behind the ball but we let the ball run we stay where we are in our yeah Center of competence so we're very close now to you standing in the garage in Abu Dhabi watching Lewis say his farewells I wonder what what you will quietly be thinking to yourself in that moment uh Lis and I are going through the emotions already since a

while really yeah yeah like what like um we need to remind ourselves that this is not the the end of our friendship and we're doing it both both ways um and uh and when there is these special situations acknowledging that this is that this is uh this is special so uh I don't think that it's going to hit just on this single day as the last race I think we have those moments where we understand that's not going to be in that way anymore in the future we were we had a day in Germany with

George and mikuma we were driving those fantastic Mercedes race cars from the past the lar winning u u prototype the C11 uh we we drove a the lon car that flew with Marco um but you kept it on all four wheels right yeah my driving wasn't fast enough to make it Fly uh the group C car GT3 cars and overall we just had so much fun on the whole day and yeah in the evening it was a bit nostalgic saying that was probably the best driving day in cars that we had in the last 12

years probably the last amazing and and it's going to be quite a job for you really because you it's a different leadership I guess from the driver from a young Kimmy coming in rather than a seven time world champion there'll be a different feel I guess around the team that's why actually I thought you were going to sign Max for stappen purely because it would feel it would feel similar for people you've gone from a multiple world champion to another multiple world champion yeah I'm going through the generation now I think the the the difficulty

at the beginning was that I came I came into Mercedes um I joined Mercedes I was a team principal the facto at at Williams but Lis Hamilton was a superstar yeah and he was more senior in Formula One not from his age but from his experience than I was um and in a way we you know over the years that has balanced pretty well we respect each other for what we do we respect each other's friends but the next generation of Val was somebody that that I managed when he was very young in 2008 so

he was a he was a kid and he grew in the system the same with George I Met George 10 years ago when he was 17 so he was our prot he was our Kido and now is the more senior driver and the same with kimy I met when he was 11 so it reminds you how old you're getting yourself yeah but that's not a problem I'm actually happy about it less years struggle ah Hadad than there is behind me um but it's it feels natural now to go to the Next Generation Max is a

great driver and then an interesting personality and God knows what happens in the future but uh having Kimmy and George in the car homegrown real Mercedes Juniors that delivered every step of their career that we supported is is an is an is a very I'm very much looking forward to that situation I'm excited for you having spent a little bit of time with Max I think you and him are make a great Joo by the way we we you know we have we we get on very well not always in the visibility of the public

eye um i' you know I've known y for a long time he's he is my age we have similar views on racing and I wouldn't want the year 2021 put any Shadow on um on any you know personal relationship that we have it was bad enough that year but yeah the relationships are in P good and I love the learning that you've taken from it um I've got a few quick fire questions for you if you're happy first question how do we be a good person and also remain a fierce competitor a good person can

be a fierce competitor and the other the other way around I think as long as you're authentic on on who you are you respect other people you stay true to your values for me it's humility honesty integrity you still can be a fierce competitor and uh and a fighter a warrior what's the single biggest thing you've learned about yourself in the last three years three years um you've got to change what's the single biggest skill a leader needs that is often overlooked you know talking about skills yourself is makes makes other people puke so I'm

okay what's the biggest skill you've seen from members of the team here that you think is too often overlooked because you're so modest um what's the sing's biggest skill is um it should come out that should come quicker know as an answer so many skills so many interesting personalities that build each other up whilst keeping the pressure the skill is staying true to ourselves here in good and in bad not oscillating too much and for people that have listened to this conversation and still have that fear of seeking therapy or telling people how they're really

feeling for the first time what would you say to them it's a superpower your your brain your soul cries for help either because because there's something to to work on because it caused some trauma or you your mind your soul tells that we got to change something here that's not going right or I'm suffering and uh if you have pain then you go to the doctor you wouldn't have a thought tooth and not go to the dentist so it's the body giving is giving us signals and then and try to work on them try to

develop try to understand why this is happening don't ignore it and there is specialist for that that will accelerate you much more and I'm always you know it's great to have a group of friends that that can support you but they will always have their own bias and perspective of things don't touch any drugs or alcohol it's only making it worse going to the PB is not the solution speaking to someone will accelerate your healing brilliant final two questions what does the morning look like for you to set yourself up for a great day um

I'm I'm lucky because I I and I I kind of know when I perform best and that is not the mornings so for me I need time for myself I I can stay up very late night I'm an evening person um but I need my eight hour sleep I want to read the the news in the morning I don't want to be pressurized by any meetings so um having time for myself that's that's important and sometimes I wake up at 6:00 in the morning sometimes I wake up at 8:30 and having having the luxury of

being able to have me decide when that is so that's how how how my day starts best and you shift your day later so meetings in the afternoon and things I don't have any meetings before 10:00 that's my rule um no backtack meetings there always needs to be some space in there my phone is always on silent I've never I don't have a ringtone I look at it when I have time to look at it and then I decide whether it is a conversation that I want to have at that very moment um social media

oh my wife says that I'm really a victim of of it um and AR we all um aware that we shouldn't spend too much time on it the algorithms are so good and sometimes the content is good so I'm between deleting social media and then uh using Susie's phone to look something up which annoys her um so then I'm on it again but you just you the way I look at it is like like when we were children looking television you know this is just a moment where your brain goes on pause um for a

while but I don't let myself drag into this but the algorithms are really good they make they they they drag you into this so I'm trying to limit it and I'm not always very good at it but um I know very well that you know don't don't spend too much time on it biggest strength greatest weakness of myself someone else should judge come on again a puke moment for everybody um strengths um resilience [Laughter] weakness I don't know we'll leave it there um and the final question that's the beginning of the end that's when that's

that's in the trailer now yeah um final question your your one Golden Rule if my wife would sing oh she'll have a whole list of weaknesses yeah for sure your one golden R I'm not punctual she says that's really bad I don't respect anybody else's time uh oh yeah you were a bit late for this yeah fine and I saw you weren't impressed with me not at all um final question your one Golden Rule for living a hyp performance life I guess the thing you'd like to leave people thinking about when they finish watching this

conversation hopefully um make people realize that they're not feeling adequate or that feel bad that I do so too and and it will all be good you just have to continue to believe that that's what I would like people to take from it um that's probably the most important message and and uh don't take yourself too seriously thanks a lot thanks really enjoyed that it was great thank you I don't think you can be high performance by yourself I don't think it exists [Music] I'm interested in what kind of lessons you could pass on to

our listeners that is the most interesting question I've ever been asked in my life this is high performance available to you your people and your business right now