Entrevista com Gloria (1965)

[Music] [Music] [Music] psychotherapy is such a personal and private process that it is a mystery to most people who have never gone through it the following series is a unique effort that allows us to sit in on what is ordinarily a very private therapeutic experience an actual patient was courageous enough and considerate enough to allow herself to be photographed while actually engaged in therapy with three different therapists thus we are allowed the privilege of seeing and feeling what really transpires a film series like this in which three therapists distinguished by their different orientations share their

therapeutic endeavors has never been made before we therefore wish to express our gratitude to Gloria the patient and to her therapists for allowing us to share in their therapeutic adventures this series will be divided into three separate films in the first film we see dr. Carl Rogers founder of client centered therapy interviewing Gloria in film number two dr. Frederick pearls founder of Gestalt therapy is working with her and in film number three dr. Albert Ellis founder of rational emotive therapy is our therapist each therapist will first describe his system of therapy briefly he will then

demonstrate his work with Gloria and then he will come in briefly on his work now here is dr. Carl Rogers from my own years of therapeutic experience I have come to feel that if I can create the proper climate to the proper relationship the proper conditions a process of therapeutic movement will almost inevitably occur in my client men ask what is this climate but what are these conditions will they exist in the interview with the woman I'm about to talk with and I have never seen before let me try to describe very briefly what these

conditions are as I see them first of all one question is can I be real in the relationship this has come to have an increasing amount of importance to me over the years I feel that the genuineness is another way of describing the quality I would like to have I like the term congruence by which I mean that what I'm experiencing inside is present in my awareness and comes out through my communication in a sense when I have this quality I'm I'm all in one piece in the relationship there's another word that describes it for

me I feel it in the relationship I would like to have a transparency I would be quite willing for my client to see all the way through me that there would be nothing nothing hidden and when I'm real in this fashion that I'm trying to describe them I know that my own feelings well will often bubble up into awareness and be expressed but be expressed in ways that won't impose themselves on my client then the second question I would have is will I find myself praising this person caring for this person I certainly don't want

to pretend a caring that I don't feel in fact if I dislike my client persistently I feel it's better than I should express it but I know that the process of therapy is much more likely to occur and constructive change is much more likely if I feel a real spontaneous prising of this individual with whom I'm working a prising of this person is a separate individual you can call out quality acceptance you can call it caring you can call it a non possessive love if you wish I think any of those terms tend to describe

it I know that the relationship will prove more constructive if it's present then the third quality will I be able to understand the inner world of this individual from from the inside can I will I be able to see it through her eyes will I be able to be sufficiently sensitive to move around inside the world of her feelings so that I know what it feels like to be her so that I can sense not only the surface meanings but some of the meanings that lie somewhat underneath the surface I know that if I can

let myself sensitively and accurately enter into her world of experience then change and therapeutic movement are much more likely well suppose I am fortunate than that I do experience some of these attitudes in the relationship what then well then a variety of things are likely to happen both from my clinical experience and from our research investigations we find that if attitudes of assert that I've described they're present and quite a number of things will happen she'll explore some of her feelings and attitudes more deeply she's likely to discover some hidden aspects of herself that she

wasn't aware of previously feeling herself prized by me it's quite possible she'll come to prise herself more feeling that some of her meanings are understood by me then she can more readily perhaps listen to herself listen to what's going on within her own experience listen to some of the meanings she hasn't been able to catch before and perhaps if she senses a realness in me she'll be able to be a little more real within herself I suspect there will be a change in the manner of her expression at least this has been my experience in

other instances from being rather remote from her experiencing remote from what's going on within her it's possible that she'll move toward more immediacy of experiencing that she will be able to sense and express what's going on in her in the immediate moment from being disapproving of herself it's quite possible she will move toward a greater degree of acceptance of herself from somewhat of a fear of relating she may move toward being able to relate more directly and to encounter me more directly from construing life in somewhat rigid black and white patterns she may move toward

more tentative ways of construing her experience and of seeing the meanings in it from a locus of evaluation which is outside of herself quite possible she will move toward recognizing a greater capacity within herself for making judgements and and drawing conclusions so those are the some of those are some of the changes that we have tended to do fine and I think that they are all of them changes that are characteristic of the process of therapy or therapeutic movement if I have any success in creating the kind of conditions that I described initially then we

may be able to see some of these changes in this client even though I know in advance that our contact is going to be very brief good morning doctor i dude you must be blurry yes I am that's fair we have half an hour together and I really don't know what we'll be able to make of it but yeah I hope we can make something else I'd be glad to know whatever concerns you well I'm right now I'm nervous but I know more comfortable the way you're talking in a low voice and I don't feel

like you'll be so harsh on me but oh I hear the tremor in your voice to guarantee the main thing I am I want to talk to you about info I'm just newly divorced and I had gone in therapy before and I felt comfortable when I left and all of a sudden now the biggest change is adjusting to my single life mm-hmm and one of the things that bothered me the most is especially Manning and having men to the house and how it affects the children and the biggest thing I want the thing keeps coming

to my mind I want to tell you about yes I have a daughter 9 who at one time I felt I had a lot of emotional problems I wish I could stop shaking and I'm real conscious of things affecting her I don't want her to get upset I don't want to shock her I want so bad for her to accept me and we're real open with each other especially about sex and the other day she saw a girl it was single but pregnant and she asked me all about Kim girls get pregnant if they're single

and the conversation was fine and I wasn't under these at all with her until she asked me if I'd ever made love to a man since I left her daddy and I lied to her and everything that it keeps coming up to my mind cuz I feel so guilty lying to her because I never lie and I want her to trust me and I want I almost want an answer from you I want tell me if that will affect her on if I told her the truth or would and it's this concern about her and

the fact that you really aren't that this open relationship that has existed between you and I you feel expanded yes I feel like I have to be on guard about that because I remember when I was a little girl when I first found out my mother father made love it was dirty and terrible and I didn't I didn't like her anymore for a while and I don't want to lie to Pandy either and I don't know sure wish I could give you the answer as to what you should tell her Oh afraid you were gonna

say that because what you really want isn't answer I want to especially know if it would affect her if I was completely honest and open with her or if it would affect her because I lied I feel like it's bound to make a strain because I lied to her because she'll respect that or she will know something's not quite right she'll just trust me yeah and also I thought would she what about when she gets a little older and she finds herself in such a situation she probably wouldn't want to admit it to me cuz

she thinks I'm so good and certainly and yet I'm afraid she could think I'm really a a devil and I want so bad for good except me and I don't know how much a nine-year-old can take and really both alternatives concern you that she might think you're too good or better than you really are yes she might think that you're worse than you are not worse than I am I don't know if she can accept me the way I I think I paint a picture that I'm all sweet and motherly and I'm a little ashamed

of my shade I - mm-hmm it really cuts a little bit bird if she really knew you would she could she I don't want to turn away from me and I don't even know how I feel about it because there are times when I feel so guilty like when I have a man over I even tried to make a special setup so that if I were ever alone with him the children would never catch me and that sort of thing cuz I'm real worried about it and yet I also know I have these desires that's

quick it isn't only her problem or the relationship with her it's in you is guilt oh yeah I okay well can I accept myself as doing it yeah yeah and you realize that you set up to subterfuge II says to make sure that that you're not caught or something you realize they you are acting from guilt is it yes I don't like the way I would like to feel comfortable with whatever I do if I choose not to tell Pammy the truth to feel comfortable that she can't handle it and I don't I want to

be honest and yet I feel there are some areas that I don't even accept if you can't accept them in yourself how could you possibly be comfortable in telling him to hers right and yet did you say you do have these desires and you do have your feelings but but you don't feel good about [Music] and I am feel like you're just gonna sit there and let me stew on it like I want more I want you to help me get rid of my guilt feeling if I can get rid of my guilt feeling about

lying or going to bed with a single man any of that just so I can feel more comfortable and I guess I'd like to say no I don't want to live to just stew in your feelings but on the other hand I also feel that this is the kind of very private thing that I couldn't possibly answer for you but I sure as anything will try to help you work toward your own answer I don't know if that makes any sense to you but I mean it well I appreciate you saying that you sound like

you mean it but I don't know where to go I don't begin to know where to go I thought that I'd pretty well worked over most of my guilt and now that this is coming up I'm disappointed in myself I really am I want I like it when I feel that no matter what I do even if it's against my own morals or my upbringing but I can still feel good about me and now I don't like there's a girl at work who sort of mothers me and she just she's I think she thinks I'm

all sweet and I sure don't want to show my more ornery devilish side with her I want to be sweet and it's so hard for me to this all things will new again so disappointing yeah I get the disappointment that here a lot of these things you thought you'd work through and now the guilt and the feeling it only a part of you is acceptable to anybody else yeah that keeps coming out I guess I did catch the real deep puzzlement that you feel what shall I do and you know what I can find doctor

is that everything I'm scared to do that I impulse it seems natural to tell Pierre or to go out on a day or something uncomfortable until I think how I look affected of the child and the minute that comes up and I'm all haywire like I want to be a good mother so bad and I feel like I am a good mother but then there's those little exceptions like my guilts was working I want to work and it's so fun having extra money I like to work nice the minute I think I'm not being real

good - the children are giving them enough time then I start feeling guilty again then that's what I'm in so / they call it a double vine that's just what it feels like I want to do this and it feels right but after all I'm not being a good mother and I want to be both I'm becoming more and more aware of what a perfectionist I am and sort of things like I want to be so perfect either I want to become perfect in my standards or not have that need anymore or I guess I

hear it a little differently that what you want is to seem perfect but it means great matter of great importance to you to be a good mother and you want to seem to be a good mother even if some of your actual feelings differ from that is it okay I feel like I'm saying that no that isn't what I feel really I want to approve of me always but my actions won't let me I want to prove with me I didn't realize you alright let me what I'd like to understand that you sound as though

your actions are kind of outside of you you want to approve of you but what you do somehow won't let you approve of your sight [Music] like I feel but I could prove with myself regarding for example my sex life then that's the big thing if I really fell in love with a man and I respected him and I adored him I don't think I'd feel so guilty going to bed with him but I don't think I'd have to make up any excuses to the children because they could see my natural caring for him but

when I have the physical desire and I'll say oh well why not and I want to anyway then I feel guilty afterwards I hate facing the kids I don't like looking at myself and I rarely enjoy it and this is what I mean if the circumstances would be different I don't think it feels so guilty because I feel right about it yeah I guess I hear you saying if if what I was doing when I went to bed with a man was really genuine and full of love and respect and so on I wouldn't feel

guilty in relation to Pam I wouldn't I really would be comfortable about yeah and I know that sounds like I want a perfect situation but that is how I feel and in the meantime I can't stop these desires I've tried that also I've tried saying okay I don't like myself and I do that so I won't do it anymore but then I resent the children I think why should they stop me from doing what I want and it's really not that bad [Music] but I guess I heard you saying - that isn't only the children

you don't like it as well upon them it really isn't I'm sure that I know that bit probably even more so than I'm aware of that I only loaded it so much when I pick it up in the children then I can also notice it in myself somehow sometimes you kind of feel like blaming them for the feelings you have and why should they cut you off from a normal sex life well affects life I could say not normal because they didn't talking about me that says that's not very healthy - just going to fix

because you feel physically attractive or something or a physical need so something about it tells me that's not quite right anyway [Music] but to kill really that at times you were acting in ways that are nothing occurred with your inner standards great great but then we're also saying a minute ago but you feel you can't help that yeah even I wished I could that's it and I can't now I feel like I can't control myself as well as I could have before first before the reason now I can't I just let go and I am

there's too many things I do wrong that I have to feel guilty for a nice tree don't like that I want you very much to give me a direct answer and I'm going to ask it and I don't expect a direct answer but I want to know do you feel but to me the most important thing is to be open and honest and if I can be open and honest with my choice do you feel that it could higher limit for example I could say to Pammy I was I felt bad lying to you Pammy

and I want to tell you the truth now and if I tell her the truth and she's shocked at me and she's upset the dad could bother her I mean I want to get rid of my guilt and that'll help me but I don't want to put him on her thanks Jay do you feel that could hurt you I'm sorry I guess I'm sure this will sound evasive to you but it seems to me that perhaps the person you're not being fully honest with is you [Music] because I was very much struck by the fact

that you were saying if I feel all right about what I have done but it's going to bed with a man or what if I really feel all right about it then I don't have any concern about what I would tell Pam or all my relationships with him right all right now I hear what you're saying [Music] all right then I want to work on I want to work on accepting me them I want to work on feeling all right about it that makes sense but that'll come natural and then I will have to worry

about him but when things do things so wrong for me and I have an impulse to do them how can I accept that [Music] what you'd like to do is to feel more accepting towards yourself when you do things that you feel are wrong right and I feel like yeah I feel like you're gonna say no why do you think they're wrong and I have mixed feelings there too through therapy l say no look I know this is natural women feel it sure we don't talk about a lot socially so all women feel it in

it's very natural I've had sex for the last 11 years I'm of course going to want it but I still think it's wrong unless you're really truly in love with a man and my body doesn't seem to agree because I don't know how to accept it sounds like a triangle to me isn't it you feel if I or therapist in general or other people say it's alright it's alright natural enough oh yeah and I guess you feel your body sort of lines up on that side of the picture but something in you says but I

don't like it that way not unless it's really right well I have a hopeless feeling I mean these are all the things I sort of feel myself and I feel though okay now what can you feel this is the conflict and it's just insoluble and therefore it's hopeless and here you look to me and I don't seem to give you any help than marked right I am I really know you can't answer for me and I have to figure it out myself but I want you to guide me or show me where to start or

so won't look so hopeless I know I can keep living with this conflict and I know eventually things would work out but I like feeling more comfortable with the way I live and I'm not anything I might ask what is it you wish I would say to you I wish you would say to me to be honest and take the risk that Pam is going to accept me and I also have a feeling if I could really risk it with Pammy of all people that I'd be able to see here's this little kid that can

accept me and I'm really not that bad if she really knows what a demon I am and still loves me and accepts me it seems like it would help me to accept me more like it's really not that bad I want you to say to go ahead and be honest but I don't want the responsibility but it would upset her that's right I want to take really know yeah you know very well what you'd like to do in a relationship you would like to be yourself and you'd like to have her know that you're not

perfect and do things that maybe even she wouldn't approve them to disapprove of to some degree yourself but that somehow she would love you and accept you as an imperfect person like I wonder if my mother had been more open with me maybe I would have had such a narrow attitude about sex if I would have thought that she could be you know prettier sexy and coronary and devilish too but I wouldn't look at her as being such a sweet mother then she could also be the other side but she didn't talk about that but

maybe that's where I got my picture I don't know but I want Tammy to see me as a full woman but also accept me you don't sound too uncertain I don't what do you mean what I mean is you've been sitting there telling me just what you would like to do in that relationship with him I wouldn't but I don't want to quite take the risk of doing it and this authority tells me that it's I guess one thing that I feel very keenly is it's an awfully risky thing to live maybe taking a chance

on your relationship with her maybe taking a chance on letting her know who you are really yeah cousin if I don't take the chance if I don't love an accepted buyer I'm never gonna feel good about it anyway if if her love and acceptance of you is based on a false picture of you what the hell is the good of that but I also feel there's a lot of responsibility with being a mother with I don't I don't want to feel like I've caused any big trauma than my children I don't like all that responsibility

I think that said I don't like it feeling it could be my fault because that's what I meant when I said life is risky to take the responsibility for being the person you would like to be with her he's a hell of a responsibility it is a very frightening and you know why I look at it two ways I like to see myself as being full honest with the kids and really being proud of myself though that no matter what I told them or any matter how bad they might think I was I was honest

and down deep it's gonna be a much more wholesome relationship and yet you know I get jealous of like when they're with their daddy I feel he's more flip he's not quite as real he's not quite as honest but nevertheless they see a sweet picture of their dad you know he's all gonna sunlight and I'm envious of that too I want them to see me just as sweet as they see him and yet I know he's not quite as real with them mm-hm so it seems like I've got to swap the one for the other

and I know this is really what I want the most but I miss some of that glory yeah I sort of fuel I want them to have just as nice a picture of me as they have of their a little for me then maybe mine will have to be - I think that's putting a little too strong I think that's close it isn't for me oh I know she can't have that meet a picture of me if I were honest decide that I do though I'm a little more ornery than their dad anyway no I'm

likely to do more things that they disapprove oh so you really kind of quite hard to believe that they would really love you if they knew you that's right you know that's exactly it before therapy I would have definitely chosen the other area I'm going to get respect from them no matter what even if I have to lie I see alright now I know that's not true and I'm not positive they'll truly accept me something tells me they will I know they will but I'm not positive I want reassurance I keep wanting beeping oh you're

in kind of a no-man's land of probably shifting from one point of view toward them to another but boy you'd sure like somebody to say that's right you go ahead and do it yes that's why I get encouraged when I read in a book from somebody I respect and admire but this is the right thing no matter what honesty will win out well then that keeps giving me confidence by gosh I'm right but it's a damn hard to really choose something on their own which makes me feel very immature I don't like this I mean

I wish I were growing up enough for mature enough to make my decisions and stick by them but I need somebody to help me on somebody to push me so to kind of reproach yourself for that I guess and feel why if I was anybody or if I was grown up I'd be mature enough to decide things like this price oh right and take more risk I wish that take more risk I wish that I could just go ahead and be this and say however the children grow up I've done my best I didn't have

to constantly have this conflict and I'd like later used to say no matter what you ask me kids at least I told you the truth you may not have liked it but it's been the truth that somehow I can admire I I just respect people that lie I hate it so you see what a double bond I am in I hate myself if I'm bad but I also hate myself of my life so well it's accepting I want to become more accepting and I guess judging here tone of voice you sound as though you hate

yourself more when they live and they do in terms of things you disapprove of I do because this was really bothered me this happening with family about a month ago and it keeps coming to my mind I don't know whether to go back and talk to her about it or wait she may have even forgotten what she asked me but uh my point is you haven't forgotten you I have no I haven't but I like to at least be able to tell me that I remember lying and I'm sorry I lied and it's been driving

me bugs because I did I don't know I feel like now that's solved and I didn't even solve the thing here but I feel relieved I am I just feel like you've been saying to me you're not giving me advice but I feel like you're saying you really wanna you know what pattern you want to follow Gloria and go ahead and follow it I sort of feel like backing up from you I guess the way I sense it is you've been telling me that you know what you wanted to do and yes I do believe

in backing up people and what they want to do just a little different slant from the way it seems to you are you telling me one thing that concerns me is it's no damn good you're doing something that you haven't really chosen to do that's why I'm trying to help you find out what's your own inner choices ever but then there's also conflict there because I'm not really positive what I want to do the lying part yes but I'm not positive what I want to do when I go against myself like when I bring a

man to the house I'm not sure I want to do that if I feel guilty afterwards I must not have really wanted to interested it you say just sure which word to use but you don't want that you don't like yourself or you don't approve it when you do something against yourself [Music] you know this is so different now this kind of thing that we're talking about now it isn't just milling whether you want to do something or not if I want to go to work in the morning or I don't want to go to

work that's easy but when I find myself doing something I don't feel comfortable with I automatically say if you're not comfortable Gori it's not right something's wrong all right now what I want to ask you is how can I know which is the strongest because I do it does that mean that's the strongest and yet if I disapprove that's just part of the thing that's got to go on with it see it sounds like you I'm picking up a contradiction I'm not an I'm not falling sound okay feeling a contradiction in your still - although

you what I heard you saying in part is the way you'd like it is when you feel really comfortable about what you're doing yes and I have at times when I've made a decision now that seems right that seems perfectly right no conflict but then there are times I do things that I feel uncomfortable with so that there is the conflict there it's not the same at all so what I'm saying is how do I really know when I'm following my true feelings if I have conflicts afterwards or guilt afterwards I see because in the

moment it may seem like your true feelings yes like if I'm starting to do it okay but there really is tough and if you feel comfortable in a moment about it but then after it don't feel the bell comfortable which course of action was really the one you should have followed you know the most outstanding thing I don't know if you're following me when I say about this conflict the one thing I know if I've wanted for example to leave my husband for quite a few years I never did it I kept thinking how nice

it would be or how scary it would be but I never did it and all of sudden when I did it felt right I didn't feel me and warned him I just knew this is what I had to do that's when I know I'm following myself I'm following my feelings completely I had no conflict there so many happy things came from it but I still had no conflict that to me is when I'm following my feelings and in everyday life the small little decisions the small little things to do don't come out there clear at

all so many conflicts come when even if it's natural although you're saying expect it is but but you're saying too that you know perfectly well the feeling within yourself that occurs when you're really doing something that's right for you I do mm-hm I do and I miss that feeling other times it's right away a clue to me you can really listen to yourself sometimes realize no no this isn't the right feeling this isn't this isn't the way I would feel if I was doing her to do but yet many times I'll go along and do

it anyway and say oh well I'm in the situation now I'll just remember next time I mentioned this word a lot in therapy and most therapists grin at me or giggle or something when I say utopia but when I do follow-up feeling and I feel this good feeling inside me that sort of utopia that's what I mean that's the way I like to feel whether it's a bad thing or a good thing but I feel right about me in those utopian moments you really feel kind of whole you feel all in one piece yeah yeah

if give me a choked up feeling when you say that because I don't get that as often as I'd like mm-hmm I like that whole feeling that's real precious to me like none of us good it was up gonna be like but I really be understanding [Music] it really does touch you didn't yeah you know what else I was just thinking I feel dumb saying it um all of sudden is I'm talking I thought gee I might I can talk to you and I want you to approve of me and I respect you but I

miss that my father can talk to me like you are I mean I'd like to say gee I'd like you for my father I don't even know why that came to me you look to me like a pretty nice daughter [Music] but you really do miss the fact that it couldn't be open with your own data yeah I couldn't be open but I I want to blame it on him I think I'm more open than hit allow me mean would never listen to me talk like you are and not disapprove and not Laura me damn

it yeah I thought of this the other day why do I always have to be so perfect I know why he always wanted me to be perfect I always had to be better and uh yeah I miss that you're just trying like hell to be the girl he wants you to be yeah at the same time rebelling yeah like I almost floated writing him a letter the other day and telling him I'm a waitress which I expect him to disapprove of I go out at nights and I I almost called it hitting him back like

no how do you like me mm-hm and yet I really want acceptance and love from him I mean I know that's where you slap I didn't say this is what I am now see yeah but you raised me how do you like it but you know what I think I want him to say I knew this was you all along honey and I really love you I really feel badly but do you think there's very little chance you'll say that no he won't he doesn't hear I went back home to him about two years ago

really honey to let him know I love them although I've been afraid of him he doesn't hear me he just keeps saying things like honey you know I love you you know I've always loved you and he doesn't hear never really known you and loved you and this somehow is what brings the tears inside I don't know what it is you know when I talk about it it feels more flip if I just sit still a minute it feels like a great they've hurt down there did I yeah mm-hmm much it's much easier to be

a little flip because then you don't feel that big lump inside the hurt and again that's a hopeless situation I tried working on it and I feel something I have to accept my father just isn't the type of man I'd really like I'd like somebody more understanding and caring he cares but not in a way that we can cooperate or communicate you don't know that permanently cheated hmm that's why I like substitutes like I like talking to you and I like then that I can respect doctors and I I keep sort of maybe underneath feeling

like we're real close you know and it's sorta like a substitute father I don't feel it beginning well you're not really my father no I meant about the real clothes business well if the isolette pretending to because I can't expect you to feel very close to me you don't know me that well all I can do is what I am feeling that is I feel close to you in this moment [Applause] in spite of feeling initially the artificiality of a situation particularly the hot lights I very quickly became oblivious to the outside situation and I

think the Gloria did too in many ways I'm glad that she kept pushing me for an answer to her very personal questions about her sex life and her relationship to her daughter I say I'm glad of this because as the relationship developed it became I think completely cleared at her as well as to me that she was seeking something a good deal deeper than that incidentally I'd like to pay my tribute to her deep honesty and being willing to talk about herself so freely although every individual is entirely unique and in this respect I was

definitely unprepared for and sometimes surprised by the material she brought up still in another sense this was very typical of my experiences in therapy when I'm able really to let myself enter into a relationship and I feel that this was true in this instance then I find myself not only being increasingly moved by being in touch with the inner world of my client but I find myself bringing out of my own inner experience statements which seem to have no connection with what's going on but lips usually proved to be or proved to have a very

significant relationship to what the client is experiencing I felt there were one or two incidents of this kind in this brief interview I was genuinely moved I probably showed it by the fact that she told me near the end of the contact that she saw me as the father she would like to have my reply was also a thoroughly spontaneous one that she seemed to me like a pretty nice daughter I guess I feel that we were only playing with the real world of relationships when we talk about such an experience in terms of transference

and countertransference I feel quite deeply about that I I want to say yes we can put this experience into some such highly intellectualized framework but when we do that it completely misses the point of the very immediate I thou quality of the relationship at such moments I felt that Gloria and I really encountered each other and that in some small but I believe lasting way we were each of us enriched by the experience I'm saying these things almost immediately after the conclusion of the interview and as is characteristic of me there are not more than

one or two statements or incidents which I recall from the interview I simply know that I was very much present in the relationship that I lived it in the moment of its occurrence and I realize that after a time I may begin to remember it too but at the present time I really have a very nonspecific memory of the whole interview [Applause] I'll try to look at it though a little bit more from a intellectual rather than a strictly feeling point of view Gloria showed that I have come to feel our characteristic elements of therapeutic

movement in the first part of the interview she was talking about her feelings and they were past feelings she was talking about aspects of her behavior and of herself as if she didn't quite own them she was looking outside herself for a center or locus of evaluation some source of authority she saw some of the things she was talking about in fairly black-and-white - the fashion by the end of the interview she was experiencing her feelings in the immediate moment not only as evidenced by her tears but by her ability to express very directly and

with immediacy her feelings toward me she was also much more aware of her ability to make her own judgments and choices I guess put in terms that have become somewhat commonplace you could say that she moved from the there and then of her life to the here and now of elements that she was discovering in herself and feelings which she was experiencing in the moment in her relationship with me all-in-all I feel good about the interview I guess I feel good about myself in the interview and like Gloria I feel very real regret that the

relationship cannot continue [Music]