CS50 Lecture by Mark Zuckerberg - 7 December 2005

MICHAEL D. SMITH: This afternoon I have the pleasure of introducing Mark Zuckerberg, which is one of our guest speakers this semester to come and talk a little bit about computer science in the real world. As most of you probably know, as you guys all do this much more than I do, founder of Facebook.com, which is a social networking program, whatever you want to call it. Used at over 2000 schools across the nation, and possibly the world too. Is it the world too, or just the nation? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: [INAUDIBLE]. >> MICHAEL D. SMITH: OK. So

good influence for doing some things in computer science. He's going to tell us some of the background of it and what's been important and so forth. So please join me in welcoming. >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yo. All right, cool. This is the first time I've ever had to hold one of these things. So I'm just going to attach it really quickly, one second. All right. Can you hear? Is this good? Is this amplified at all? >> AUDIENCE: Yeah. MARK ZUCKERBERG: All right. Sweet. This is like one of the first times I've been to a lecture at

Harvard. I guess what's probably going to be most useful for you guys is if I just take you through some of the courses that I took at Harvard where I actually did go to lecture sometimes. I was joking. And sort of, like, how different decisions that I had to make when I was moving along with Facebook got impacted by different stuff that I was learning in the classes that I was taking. And if all goes according to plan, then maybe some of you guys will come out of this thinking that taking CS or engineering stuff

at Harvard is actually sort of useful. So that's the game plan. >> I think that this is slotted for two hours. There's no way I'm going to speak for two hours. I'll probably speak for like 20 minutes, or 15 minutes, and then I'll just let you guys ask questions. Because I'm sure you guys have more interesting stuff to ask me than I could come up with to talk about myself. >> So I guess I'll just kind of get started. When I was here, I started off taking 121. I never actually took 50. You should have

gotten the other guy who was doing Facebook, Dustin Moskovitz, who was my roommate. When we got started the site was written in PHP, which isn't something that you learned in one of these classes. But fortunately, if you have a good background in C, the syntax is very similar, and you can pick it up in a day or two. >> So I started writing the site and launched it at Harvard in February 2004. So I guess almost two years ago now. And within a couple of weeks, a few thousand people had signed up. And we started

getting some emails from people at other colleges asking for us to launch it at their schools. >> And I was taking 161 at the time. So I don't know if you guys know the reputation of that course, but it was kind of heavy. It was a really fun course, but it didn't leave me with much time to do anything else with Facebook. So my roommate Dustin, who I guess had just finished CS50, was like, hey, I want to help out. I want to do the expansion and help you figure out how to do the stuff.

So I was like, you know, that's pretty cool dude, but you don't really know any PHP or anything like that. So that weekend he went home, bought the book Perl for Dummies, came back and was like, alright, I'm ready to go. I was like dude, the site is written in PHP, not Perl, but you know, that's cool. >> So he picked up PHP over a few days because, I promise that if you have a good background in C, then PHP is a very simple thing to pick up. And he just kind of went to work.

So I mean, the first big decision that we really had to make was in how to kind of expand the architecture to go from the single school type set up that we had when it was just at Harvard to something that supported multiple schools. >> So this was a decision that had to be made on a bunch of levels, both in the product and how we wanted privacy to work, but I think that one really important decision that's helped us scale pretty well is how we decided to distribute the data. >> So I don't know

how much of complexity stuff like big O notation you guys in this class. So I mean, one of the most complicated computations that we do on the site is the computation to tell how you're connected to people. >> Because if you can imagine, that's stored as sort of a series of undirected-- it's not weighted-- so undirected, unweighted pairs of ID numbers of people in the database. Then if you want to figure out who is friends with someone, you have to look at all their friends. Right? So that's maybe like 100 or 200 people. >> But

then if you want to figure out who's a friend of a friend, or what the closest connection is there, then you kind of have to look at the 100 or 200 friends of each of those friends. So it becomes at each level there's another factor of n multiplied n, where n is the number of friends that each of your friends has. So you can see that this kind of becomes exponentially difficult to solve for the shortest path between people. So if you're just looking for a friend of a friend, that's n squared. If you're looking

for a friend of a friend of a friend, that's n cubed. And that's something that traditionally was pretty difficult for a lot of the predecessor sites to Facebook. And for example Friendster had large problems with this because they were trying to compute paths six degrees out, or like seven degrees out. >> And that's something that when you're doing like n seventh, that just is really very hard and it took down their site for a while. So one of things that we kind of had in mind when we were figuring out how to do this was

how do you distribute the database in such a way that this computation becomes manageable. >> So what we decided was that everyone on the site does most of their activity at the school that they're kind of based at. So if you're at Harvard, then most of the people who you're going to be seeing and transacting with on the site are going to be at Harvard. It's actually probably like 90% of the stuff that you do on the site. >> So we decided to split up the databases and create one instance of MySQL database for each

school in the network. And in doing that, if you notice the paths that we compute are only within the school. So instead of say, like now we're at six million users, and instead of having to do n cubed over some portion of six million, it's just n cubed over 10,000, which is a much more manageable type of computation. >> So that was sort of the first big architectural decision that we had to make that contributed to us not dying a few months later. And it was probably a pretty important one. >> So when we first

set up the site we had just one computer that we were running. It wasn't in our dorm room. We were renting it. I kind of learned my lesson for trying to run a site out of my dorm room a few months earlier, and Harvard almost tried to kick me out. >> So I ended up renting a server off site this time. And I guess running originally the database and the web server. So Apache is what we were using in this instance to serve the pages from the same machine. And because we distributed the databases in

the way that we did, we were able to, as time went on, just add more machines linearly and sort of grow the site without having any kind of exponential expansion on the amount of machinery that we had. >> But after we hit about like 30 or 50 schools, we started realizing that we could start getting more performance out of MySQL or Apache. Some of the way that stuff was set up just wasn't as optimal as it could. >> So for example, when you have MySQL machines and Apache running on the same server, then if something

happens to that server, then not only does the database for that school or the schools on that server just stop kind of responding in a way that will get you anything useful, but you can't even load any web pages. So you get page not founds. And that kind of sucks. >> But another issue is that the variance and the use from school to schools is also not going to be perfect. So some schools are always going to have heavier use. We have schools now like Penn State that have 50,000 users. And then the majority of

the schools still have less than 2000 users. Because there's a lot of small schools and a lot of schools that don't have complete ubiquity. >> So in trying to deal with this issue and make it so that you could deal with the fact that Penn State had 50,000 people and just a ton of users all the time, and then you have some schools that don't, what we decided to do is separate out some of the web servers from the database servers. And make it so that we just had a pool of Apache web servers that

we could load balance between. And make it so that you can use those uniformly while just having the database layer be sort of consistent. >> So I don't know if this stuff is interesting to you guys at all. Or if this is anything that matters to what you guys are studying now. So if there's more stuff that you guys would rather know about in terms of the architecture, then I'll leave that open to questions later. So I don't spend a lot of time just talking about random applications that you guys might not ever care to

use. >> Let me try to find some interesting examples. So I mean, I guess one of the things that was pretty interesting was when we got to a point in terms of traffic where we started maxing out the performance of some of these open source applications that are generally pretty performant. >> So for example, MySQL is a really good open source database. I don't know if any of you guys sort of in your own time mess around and make anything with MySQL or have used it in any way. But it's pretty easy to use. It's

also decently quick. Indices work pretty well. It's not as fully featured as something like Oracle, but it's pretty good. >> And we got to a point where, I think around when we started doing like maybe 100 million pages a day, that we started running into some bottlenecks on that. So for example, a typical query on MySQL might take two to four milliseconds. And that's not that much. But when you're doing 100 billion page views a day, and each page view might have 30 to 50 queries, especially if you're doing something like a profile view that

queries all kinds of different information, then that starts to suck. >> So we started to develop a caching layer that allowed quicker access to some of the information. And originally we were using another open source application Memcache, which I don't know if any of you guys have any experience with that. But it was pretty quick. It got access times down to I guess the 0.3 to 0.5 milliseconds, which is pretty good. >> But it also has a bunch of distribution issues. It's supposed to be a distributed hash table sort of application, where you can just

attach any number of Memcache boxes in a cluster and be able to hook it up and have it go. But we ran into a lot of issues there where different Memcache boxes would go down. And there was no redundancy on the information. So when a Memcache box went down and you had a cache miss, then all of a sudden you had a lot more traffic going to a specific set of databases. And that would suck. >> So as time went on, we even outgrew Memcache and the indices on MySQL. We still use that stuff. But

we had to build on top of that extra redundancy. And I think that's something that's probably maybe a little interesting. But I'll let you guys ask me more questions about that later. >> I'm not really sure what would be interesting to talk about right now. Maybe you guys could help out a little? Go for it. >> AUDIENCE: I'm curious about, thinking of [INAUDIBLE] going into an online business like this, how you felt the atmosphere was with big players all bringing it to market and other big players who you thought might [INAUDIBLE] to mark, or what

your experience was with that. I'd be interested, just on a technical side, [INAUDIBLE] just ramping up and technically how you [INAUDIBLE]. >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah, so that's not a technical question at all. But I guess I'll just like go into question time now. Because I'm not really sure what's relevant stuff for me to be discussing. So I'll just answer this. Then anyone else who wants to ask me questions can just go for that. >> I guess I'd never really spent a lot of time worrying about stuff like-- I mean, there are companies out there like

Google that could just get into your space and do whatever you want at any time. And I think one of the cool things about this time in technology is that individuals are leveraged and able to do way more than they've really ever been able to do before. >> And even four years ago when Google was started, now they have hundreds of thousands of machines and probably billions of dollars spent on equipment. I think the generation before Google, you couldn't even make a site without some big piece of hardware. I think eBay, for example, ran off

of two $50,000 machines. You just can't start doing that if you're just a kid in a dorm room. >> So I think the fact that we could rent machines for $100 a month and use that to scale up to a point where we had 300,000 users is pretty cool. It's a pretty unique thing that that's going on in technology right now. It makes it so that instead of worrying about who is the big player and what is Google going to do next, you can do more of-- you can just get a lot of stuff done.

>> And instead of having to go out and have some of the traditional business problems, like you have to raise capital before you can make anything, that's no longer an issue. So you're leveraged to do a lot more on your own now. I don't know if that answers the question that you're asking. >> But I mean, it's one of the reasons why I think that, at this point, it makes a lot of sense to be studying this stuff. Because at no point in the past could you leverage such a small amount of money to get

powerful enough technology to really touch people in the way that you can today. Google does about 250 million pages views a day. They have hundreds of thousands of machines and 5,000 employees. >> Facebook does 400 million page views a day. That's a lot more than Google does. And we have hundreds of machines. And we just passed 50 employees. And that's just a technical generation of three or four years in the architectures that were created. >> And then you go three or four years back before that from like eBay to Google, and it's just completely different.

Because at least Google is running off of a lot of distributed equipment that they have hundreds of thousands of machines, but the idea there was to get a lot of shitty machines that are really cheap. I mean, that's a big step up. >> Because then it's like, OK, that's more redundant. They're not losing information. They don't expect stuff to always work. It's a much more mature attitude than eBay's, which was the only thing that they could do at the time. >> AUDIENCE: I have a question about the DHT stuff. >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: The what? AUDIENCE:

The Distributed Hash Table stuff. MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah, which one? AUDIENCE: I was just wondering if you [INAUDIBLE] all your extensions for Memcache, because one thing I've noticed is that, yeah, there aren't really good available libraries for DHT stuff. There's all this wonderful research, but in terms of implementations that actually deal with all the redundancy issues and all those things-- >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah, a lot of the stuff-- we didn't necessarily extend Memcache. We built a bunch of stuff ourselves. Right now, it's not open source. We considered doing it. And I mean, there's a lot of

work that goes into making stuff open source. And it's on top of whether or not you want to lose the competitive advantage. It's kind of unfortunate. >> Because I think that if it we were just easier to make something like that, then you could do it. You could just release the code. But then there's a lot of support and licensing and all that stuff. We found that it's been annoying. >> One of the things that we actually considered making open source was this search server that actually that guy sitting right there made while he was

still out in California. And I guess we got to a point where MySQL was lagging a little on some of the searches that we were trying to do. And we decided that it would be a cool thing to do to make a series of distributed machines that could-- he doesn't use a hash table. What's the structure that you use, McCollum? >> ANDREW MCCOLLUM: [INAUDIBLE]. MARK ZUCKERBERG: So, yeah, we thought about making that open. But that's when we kind of had to do all this work to come up with a license. And we're just like, all

right, screw that. Yo. >> AUDIENCE: What do you spend most of your work time doing these days? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: Hiring people. I guess when, as you grow, the most important thing is to have smart people. If you think about how, the technical leverage stuff that I was talking about in answering that guy's question, as technology becomes more generic and less expensive, the leverage point becomes more in the people. So if you think about this from a perspective of a person to people time spent or user time spent, or page view analysis, because of technology

now, people are much more leveraged to do more things and be more important in the equation. >> Because of that, it's really important to get the most intelligent people. And also, I mean, when you're a small company, you can be really nimble and get a lot of stuff done. And there's relatively little bureaucracy. So if you have smart people who can take advantage of that to build cool things, then that's awesome. >> I guess, besides that, designing new things. There's not much corporate bureaucracy yet. So I don't have to waste much time on that. Keep

on going? >> AUDIENCE: Yeah, how much have you spoken and consulted with lawyers so far? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: I have a lawyer who works for me full-time. >> AUDIENCE: OK, it is a big part of running a business? Would you recommend working on [INAUDIBLE] early on? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: We didn't. And that, I guess, provided some annoyance later on. Getting stuff set up really well is good. Getting stuff clean is really good. >> And, I mean, no one's ever going to tell you a lawyer is bad. It's all just a question of opportunity cost and

what you prioritize. I guess that, in our case, we now have to deal with a bunch of stuff that wasn't set up properly in the beginning. Most of the stuff is dealt with. It's not even a big deal anymore. >> But instead of talking to lawyers early on, we were making stuff. And I think that that was probably the right use of our time. I think that one cool characteristic of a lot of the companies that end up being really successful, not that we are really successful, but I guess we also fall into this bucket,

is that they started off as someone trying to make something cool and not someone trying to make a company. You kind of have-- Google came out of Larry and Sergey's PhD Dissertation at Stanford, and Yahoo came out of just, I guess, also some Stanford guys just kind of screwing around in their dorm room. And eBay came out of some guy trying to build a marketplace for his girlfriend to exchange PEZ dispensers. Amazon was a little more calculated. >> So I can't imagine that any of those people really had that much advice, and it seems to

have worked out OK for them. But, I mean, at the same time I'm not going to sit here and tell you not to get advice on stuff. And a lot of times people are just too careful, too. I think it's more useful to make things happen and then apologize later than it is to make sure that you dot all your I's eyes now and then just not get stuff done. Yeah. Go for it. >> AUDIENCE: When do you think that Facebook will reach the point where it could become that big company [INAUDIBLE] new idea, [INAUDIBLE]?

Do you think it will reach that point any time soon? How would you keep it from [INAUDIBLE]? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: Well, I mean, I think that-- I think you're kind of always at that point. I mean, most companies are started on like a couple of ideas, and those are a few things that they do well. So, I mean, Yahoo's was like we're going to organize all this information in the world like by directory. And that was what they started off doing, and then they kind of diversified out as time went on and built more stuff.

And a lot of that stuff is like the core of their business now. I mean, it's like they didn't originally do search. And now directory just doesn't exist. It sucks. There's no utility for it. >> I mean, Google's big thing was just like they did PageRank. And then, I guess, out of PageRank, they have search. And now they kind of extend that to do other similar type of algorithms, searching in other spaces. But, I mean, you can kind of tell how all the other stuff that they're doing is sort of tangential. And it's like they're

trying really hard to make PageRank and other types of algorithms that are very similar to that work in their spaces, and it's just not as elegant or pure of an idea as the original one was. >> So in Facebook, for example, when it just got started, what I thought was the most interesting thing was just to be able to type in someone's name and find out information about them. And there was hardly any of the stuff that was there now. There was no groups. There was no messages even. There was poking. >> Yeah. I mean,

so it's like you kind of get started on some kind of core idea. And generally, the company will do well, because I guess the people who are starting off working on that core idea kind of understand that single core idea in some sort of unique way. But that doesn't imply that they have any better understanding of anything else, than anyone else. So that's why surrounding yourself with a lot of smart people is really important. >> AUDIENCE: What was-- was there any sort of model that was [INAUDIBLE] photo features [INAUDIBLE] on Facebook? Was there any sort

of [INAUDIBLE]? MARK ZUCKERBERG: I mean, there's a lot of applications on the internet now that do that stuff. So, I mean, Flickr's a pretty photo application. Although I think in three weeks we passed them in the number of photos that we had on our site. I mean, I think that the coolest thing about photos is that you can tag them and the way that makes them link to people's profiles. And I think that that's something that you can really only do if you have the context of everyone around you on the site. That kind of

requires the ubiquity of usage. So I don't know if any of the other guys would have done that if they have that kind of use, but they didn't. >> I don't know. Don't any of you guys have any CS questions? >> AUDIENCE: I'm curious. How do you decide as you're moving forward with the company to pursue a technology or not pursue a technology? MARK ZUCKERBERG: What's an idea? What's in the example? >> AUDIENCE: Well, I actually don't know much about Facebook. What's the next thing you want to do with pictures and linking people together? How

do you know about figure out which technologies are good ones? How do you mine to find technology? Do you have any processes in place today that are directed towards those sorts of things, or does technology just come into the company because you're out someplace and somebody mentioned something you might want to do in terms of Facebook? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: So I think that our process for filtering what technologies to use are trust the smart people. So we definitely have some people at the company who are just really smart, and I think that most of the

people at the company are generally pretty smart. >> But there area a few guys in particular-- I'm not one of them-- who I think that when they say that something is a generally good practice to go at it, then it's relatively-- then they can get support for that pretty easily. And I think that a lot of the engineers sort of build a consensus around that. I'm trying to think of a good example. >> I think it's somewhat goal oriented. So then with photos, we knew that we wanted to support just people uploading unlimited photos. So,

I mean, there's no real concept of unlimited. It's just you have to keep on adding stuff, keep on adding storage. And you want to make it so that it kind of works as seamlessly as possible. So the first thing that we were trying to do is, well, let's evaluate these companies that just do large storage for a living. Or it's like NetApp or something, Network Appliance. So we talk to them for a while. And then we're like, all right. Well, we don't really want to go with this single, big box approach. We want to go

with having just a series of distributed smaller boxes with a lot of hard drive and a lot of RAM. >> And so I think that the architecture that we first built was one where we had a bunch of those machines with relatively slow but very stable disk behind a level of-- a layer of caching boxes with a ton of RAM that could hold most of the thumbnails and the most frequently accessed images in-- I guess in RAM at any time. And then right before we launched, it occurred to us that we were going to have

some issues with this. And the issues that we were going to have were going to be network issues, not hardware issues. >> So, for example, if you take a photo album of 30 photos and each of your photos is three megabytes, then you can upload 90 megabytes to Facebook. And that kind of sucks. All right. I mean, it sucks because people tend to have not optimal connections and because our router-- I guess most routers are set up to only be able to handle a gigabit at a time, and routers are kind of expensive. Thy are

big pieces of equipment. I don't think that there is a distributed version of that yet. >> So we couldn't, in the time frame that we wanted to launch it, just get a new router and get it set up. So what we ended up doing was building a Java applet and an ActiveX control that coupled the choosing of the photos that people wanted to upload with compression on the client side to make it smaller, and then that way people can just upload their photos relatively quickly. We also saved CPU on our side because we don't have

to do the decompression on our side, although that wasn't that huge of a bottleneck. So that worked. >> And then we got it to a point where we were having uploads at a rate of 100 a second, and people were using the feature way more than we thought we were going to. And even though we had this caching tier setup, it just still wasn't fast enough. I'm sure you guys remember this. A few weeks ago, the site was not having a good time. >> So what we ended up doing at that point was using edge

caching, like Akamai type of stuff to make these photos which are static content just be closer to people. So that way we can sort of offload some of the equipment and the-- sort of having to transfer these still somewhat large files to people. So that's where we are now, and it seems to be working pretty well. >> It wasn't that we had any upfront technical genius about it. It was just sort of that at each point we sort of anticipated the issues or picked them out pretty quickly and then had enough competence to evaluate, I

think, what the options were that we had and make what I think were decent decisions about how to execute on them. What's that? >> AUDIENCE: Take that to the next level, too, in terms of the problems you just talked about. MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah. >> AUDIENCE: Students get one year of-- you know, one computer science working with, like, I go sit in the corner, type on my [INAUDIBLE]. How did the company work through-- what do the software engineers do when you guys all have to put curly braces in the same place? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: What's that?

AUDIENCE: Curly braces for the programmers in the same place. How is the structure of the software engineering actually done [INAUDIBLE]? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: So the way that-- I guess the methodology that we have is that I wanted to be sort of-- as much of a meritocracy as possible where the people who can come up with the coolest solutions and implement them the quickest and have like the fewest bugs get to work on the stuff that they think is the most interesting and go off and have the most influence in the company. >> So we're also

on-boarding a lot of people, because we're hiring relatively quickly. And in doing so, we sort of have-- we pair up new people who are coming in with some-- like the better people who are sort of at the top of the chain, and then we have them sort of work with those people when they first come in, to learn the stuff that they're working on that-- so that the new guys, like the incoming class, can sort of learn what some of the people that are currently at the company are working on. And I think in doing

that, they pick up the style and the methods that we use for doing stuff. >> But I think that it changes pretty quickly. I think one difference between the way stuff works in a company and the way stuff works in school is that this is a very iterative process. And it's nice when you get stuff right the first time, but we don't need to. And I think that a lot of companies go through phases, or stages, where they don't get stuff right the first time. >> Like Microsoft-- I mean, I don't know when the last

time was that they had a good product before Version 4. But by the time they get to Version 4, it's like always good for the most part. And I think that works out pretty well for them. And, I mean, Google always releases their stuff in beta. >> So I guess we try to have multiple people work on the same thing, so everyone can learn from each other and kind of pick off some of the mistakes that might be made that we can reduce pretty quickly. But like, I guess in general, the idea is that it

doesn't have to be perfect the first time around. And as long as you get the architecture as right as possible, then a lot of the other implementation stuff isn't going to be as big of a deal, and you can sort of work that out at any time. I know if that's sort of answering the question that you asked me. >> AUDIENCE: So now, when you find something that you want to do that you don't know so much about, you can ask some of these people that are working for you, or you can get new people.

But when you started, it was just sort of you and your roommate as a student. And obviously, there were domain knowledge issues of computer science that you had to deal with and you didn't know about. >> I mean, how did you go about figuring out how to do things? Did you decide to take certain classes? Did you get books? Did you go hire or get involved with some more people? How did you work through those issues of learning computer science as you worked through this? MARK ZUCKERBERG: The internet is a pretty good tool. I think

that that's how we did most of it. I mean, we kind of make a point of not hiring people for skills, because I guess the theory is if someone has skills in an area and has been doing it for 10 or 15 years, then that's probably what they can do. And that's good, and that mean that they can do that. >> But if you hire someone, say, right out of college, or someone younger who you're just hiring them for raw intelligence, then the idea is that they're going to be able to learn stuff really quickly.

And there's a lot of information available all over the place, and now, withing recent years, there's good tools for sorting through that. And I think that the most performant people we have are sort of younger people, who didn't necessarily know that much about anything specific coming out of college. >> I mean, a good example is-- Dustin, my roommate at Harvard wasn't even a CS major. He was an economics major. And he's just a really smart dude, and was able to pick it up. Some of the other good people we have are EE majors out of

Stanford or Berkeley. And they aren't even CS all the time. Like math people-- if you studied math, you can learn the stuff relatively quickly a lot of the time. Yeah? >> AUDIENCE: I guess, since you have the infrastructure in place, right now, when you focus on your hiring, so you still look for tech skill people? Or do you look for people who might have the business knowledge to help grow you further and make more money? What's actually the priority right now in growing the company? MARK ZUCKERBERG: I never really hire people just because they have

business skills. It's actually kind of funny, but knowledge of a lot of core CS stuff is really important in business, too. One of the main things that you learn when you're studying CS is complexity and scale, and that is a huge issue in business, too. How do you go from having five people to 100 people, and what's the change in the dynamic there? And like, how are certain processes-- how is a sales force going to scale from five people to 100 people? >> It's like the same type of intelligence that can figure out both of

those problems. And it might be a different type of person who cares to solve the problems. >> But I think that the second part of my answer to what you said is that I think we're sort of continually in the process of building out infrastructure, and I don't think you ever get out of that process. And we're kind of focusing not on just building something and figuring out how to make money off of it and sort of maximizing the value of our business in the short term-- but instead, sort of always looking to maximize what

the long term value would be. And I think that in doing that, you kind of need to always just be building out your base, and not at any time be worried about maximizing your money. >> AUDIENCE: This is sort of back to the [INAUDIBLE] Facebook, but do you guys have issue like the day after college, maybe something like that, with everybody uploading pictures all at the same time, [INAUDIBLE]? MARK ZUCKERBERG: Our peaks are pretty strong. So like at 5:00 in the morning, no matter how many users we have signed up, there's always like 5,000 people,

and that's it. And then if you get to 9:00 PM Pacific-- so like midnight here-- which I guess is like the peak across the country, it's close to 400,000 people using it simultaneously. >> And it's actually kind of interesting, because we monitor these graphs and we have this huge LCD in our office, and whenever there's a blip in the traffic, we're like, oh crap, what happened? And a lot of times it's like Laguna Beach. >> [CHUCKLES] >> But usually it doesn't swing that far the other way. >> AUDIENCE: With your archive [INAUDIBLE], if someone deletes

something from their profile, do you keep a cache of that, and how long? MARK ZUCKERBERG: Right now, we don't. But we may at some point in the future. >> AUDIENCE: To follow up on that, what kind of issues do you talk about at the company in terms of privacy and security, all those things? Are you worried about it at all? You've put your [INAUDIBLE] privacy and security statement online. So you just put it up and then not worry about it? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: Well, I think that what makes Facebook fun and useful is that there's

a lot of information about a lot of people that you can get. But what's more important is that the information is available to the people who that person wants that information to be available to. And the flip side of that is that the information is available to the people that want to have access to that information. >> So one of the kind of core decisions that we made was only to let people at the same school see each other's profiles. And I guess the idea behind that was that you're at Harvard. You probably wouldn't have

that hard of a time just letting someone else at Harvard see your information. But at the same time, it's like only people at Harvard, who you're probably going to see on a day-to-day basis and maybe meet, who are ever going to want to look you up. It's not like some kid out at Stanford who you will never talk to is going to be interested in knowing what your cell phone number is or what you're interested in. >> So by limiting the scope of the information to sort of as narrow as makes sense, I think that

we've solved a lot of those issues. And then, we also give people complete control over what parts of their profile get showed. So we don't force anyone to show anything, and we give people granular control over some of the more sensitive stuff. >> So like, right next to the cell phone field, there's another field that's like, who do you want to show this to? Just your friends, just people at your school, what? We care about it, because if people stop-- if people feel like their information isn't private, then that screws us in the long term,

too. >> AUDIENCE: Just furthering on that, I guess even though you put the information up yourself, what's the recourse in case, say, you have a photo, and somebody puts that photo up on some message board or some Hot or Not type site. How do you control what users do with the information that's input onto your servers? MARK ZUCKERBERG: It's very hard to control what people do with information that they have access to. Right? I mean, the best that we can do is give people control over their information and who can see it. And then once

they let someone see it, it's sort of out of anyone's control. >> AUDIENCE: I'm curious a bit about [INAUDIBLE] Wall feature. It seemed to start out maybe more like blackboard type of thing, and then it completely changed around. [INAUDIBLE] like one or the other, or if there was something that you were thinking of? Or was there a design change in the process of doing [INAUDIBLE]? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: So I originally threw that together in like a half an hour. And I guess it was pretty complicated, because-- or it was more complicated than I thought it

was going to be. And I think part of the reason why we changed it was because it didn't work as well as we wanted it to. I mean, the original goal was to sort of make it so that you can have this wiki type thing on people's profiles, that when you moused over something, it showed who added that part of it. >> But I guess there were a lot of cases that we missed, or it just wasn't well designed by me. And I don't know if you guys remember, but you used to mouse over stuff,

and it just wasn't as good. And like, it might tell you the wrong person, or it might highlight more than it was supposed to. >> So I kind of coupled that with thinking, this isn't even the best feature. It would be much more interesting if instead of having to mouse over stuff, people could just see the picture and the name of the person who posted everything, without having to go through the whole wall. So over the summer, we just kind of went through and wrote a better parser for the walls and tried to decompose them.

And then, going forward, we made it so that you just added a post, and it went to the top of the wall. >> AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] question. Where'd you get the idea from, for creating Facebook? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: I just wanted to make something where people can type in someone's name and get some information about a person. I thought that would be cool. Oh, yeah? >> AUDIENCE: I'm interested in the feature that you could SMS some [INAUDIBLE] information if you wanted and send it back. I didn't know about people using it. So I'm just wondering if

there actual considerations [INAUDIBLE]? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: So the SMS Gateways also have an email counterpart, so if your phone numbers is x and you have Cingular as your provider, then you could email x@cingular.com or some variant of that, and the text message would go to your phone. And that's a free gateway. So, you know when you text message people, a lot of times depending on what your cell phone plan is, it will cost you money. If you do it through email, it actually doesn't cost any money. So that's how we chose to do it. We

were doing a high volume of them and we decided that it would just be a better thing for us to-- to actually do it the legit way and send a text message directly to the cell phone, as opposed to going through the email gateways. So we're kind of the process of getting that set up now. >> AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] Myspace [INAUDIBLE]? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: I think that we're always looking for more stuff to do. I don't think that we're competing with Myspace. And I think it's kind of a different type of application. Yeah. AUDIENCE: I'm just

curious. Is there a particular reason why on a person's profiles and school emails and stuff [INAUDIBLE] and not as text can be copied and pasted? Is that [INAUDIBLE]? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: So I did that so that people couldn't go through and scrape the pages. We have a lot of stuff that we put in place to make sure that people don't aggregate information off of Facebook. You obviously, you can't see profiles of people at other schools. But also if you try to view a lot of profiles, it picks up that you're just viewing an abnormal number

of profiles. >> And we also sort of-- just by analyzing user activity, we've built these Bayesian filters that I guess just let us pick out abnormal activity, like really quickly, and just kind of show very limited information to those users. But one of the things that we wanted to do, we want to make sure-- we want to make it especially difficult for anyone to try to scrape email addresses, because that's really annoying-- if people get spammed. So we figured that by making it an image, instead of plain text, that just added an extra level of

complexity in terms of scraping. >> AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] pretty valuable resources that [INAUDIBLE]. Do you do anything [INAUDIBLE]? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: Well, we can use it to target posters to you, for example. I don't know if any of you bought posters off of that. But we sort of-- we're trying to figure out what we can do that, but we're obviously really sensitive to people's privacy. And what's that? >> AUDIENCE: Not so much for individual [INAUDIBLE], but just as a whole [INAUDIBLE]? MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah. I think we're actually going to be releasing something in late this week

or next week that shows some aggregate statistics that we think are interesting. I mean, this is the stuff is kind of cool, but it's not the type of thing that you come back to every day. No CS questions? MICHAEL D. SMITH: Do you have any questions for Mark? He might be willing to stay around for a couple of minutes, in case people want to not ask you in public, but have a-- >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: AUDIENCE: I'm especially disappointed that Will Chen didn't ask me any questions. >> MICHAEL D. SMITH: We'll work on Will later. That's

it? No more? We've got a couple more. MARK ZUCKERBERG: Cool. AUDIENCE: Do you ever procrastinate on Facebook, like everyone else in the room? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: What's that? >> AUDIENCE: Do you ever procrastinate on Facebook? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: Of course. >> AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]. >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: I mean, I think that there's a value to what people do on the site. >> AUDIENCE: I just know that probably many of us would feel that the hours [INAUDIBLE]. >> MICHAEL D. SMITH: [INAUDIBLE]. >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah, of course. AUDIENCE: I don't know if you can say this, but

what kinds of features can we expect in the future? [INAUDIBLE] >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: Well, I can tell you what we're going to do next two weeks. There's the thing that I just mentioned before, where we're aggregating a bunch of stats, and just show what's hot and what's changing. And also surprising statistics that we've found, like 2% of people at Harvard are Libertarian, for example, or something like that. I think another thing that we're going to launch hopefully sometime either late this week or next week, is something that allows people to clarify their relationships with other

People. >> So a lot of the problems that we kind of deal with at Facebook aren't always technical, but there are sometimes like they're social problems. And it's like-- one thing that I think is really interesting is-- if you have 100 or 150 friends, how well do you know each of those people, and who are maybe like the five people who you actually care about, like a lot. And that's not something that you can really answer right now, because the connections are binary. You either are connected or you're not. So I've been trying to think

for a while about how we could design something that would make it so that people could express how close they were to people, in sort of an unbiased way. >> So you can imagine, if you made a feature that was just like-- rate your friendship on a scale of 1 to 10, that would not work. Because first of all, no one would want to do that because you're insulting someone if you're like, you're a three. But it's also kind of boring, and so no one would want to do it because of that. And it would

just be skewed by social pressure in the same way that the friends are. Some people have a different sense of what a friend is to them, then another person would. So if someone has 30 friends and another person has 150 friends, does that person actually have more friends in real life? Maybe or maybe not, and maybe the person with 30 just has a higher threshold for making someone on a friend on Facebook. >> So I mean, I guess that the solution that we came up with for this was to make-- to judge relationships based on

bi-directional, factual statements. So for example, I took CS50 with this person. Or I lived in a house with this person. And there's just kind of a bunch of different ways to do stuff like that. But I figured that that would probably be a little more accurate, because no one is going to-- there's no pressure to lie about something like that. It's not like, what are you talking about? I didn't take CS50 with you. But if someone aggregates a lot of different connections, then that kind of means something. So when you take someone like Dustin, who's

my roommate here, and it's like OK, well we lived together at Kirkland House. Then we worked on Facebook. Then we moved out to Palo Alto, and now we're still working on Facebook-- then maybe that's enough connections to say OK, well this person clearly has a lot to do this person. Whereas if the only category that you know someone through is, this person's my Facebook friend, then that also means something. So I don't know. We'll see how it works. Nothing is for sure. What's up? >> AUDIENCE: Do you actually [INAUDIBLE] people typing in information [INAUDIBLE]? >>

MARK ZUCKERBERG: It's a combination. So I think that another thing that's pretty important for each of these events is the date at which they occur. So if you had, for example, a date on each person's friendship with each person then that would give you a more accurate representation of what that meant, because right now you don't know what friend means to each of the people on the network. And because you don't know when that friendship was formed, you don't know what has changed in that relationship since that friendship was formed. >> I mean if the

person-- if friendship means very little to someone if you know that that happened yesterday, that they became friends, you still know that there's some-- that there's some strength. It's like a certainty thing. There's a lower certainty that their relationship has diverged since that point if the date at which the action occurred was sooner. Sorry, more recent. So I think that's one of the things that we're focusing on here. So I took a course-- I took CS50 with someone this term is a lot different than saying I'm a senior now and I took CS50 with this

person when I was a freshman. >> A lot of these-- the analysis of how people look at this and see the relationships isn't necessarily-- Facebook isn't going to rate the relationship. It's sort of-- people have an implicit understanding of what the difference is between having taken CS50 with someone this term and having taken CS50 within three years ago. And I think that will kind of help out. What's up? >> AUDIENCE: When you get a new idea and you think it's pretty cool, how [INAUDIBLE] with how you go about it? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: Not too. Because

I think that a lot of the stuff, we sort have a very unique platform for building it. I don't think there's any other company or group of people in the world who could develop this right now. I mean even Google, with their like 5,000 engineers is not in the place to make an application that sort of characterizes people's relationships like this. >> And it's like the same thing with the photo tagging. We can do that because photo tagging only works if everyone around you is on the site. Because otherwise you're going to get a type

of use for it where you go and you upload a photo and you go to tag a bunch of people, and they're not there, and that sucks. So even if 50% of the people at Harvard were on Facebook, then the tagging and the way that we set up would still suck. So it only works because 97% of the people at Harvard are on Facebook, or whatever. So because of that, it's like not that big of a concern. Yeah? >> AUDIENCE: So from sort of a software engineering, sort of dynamic [INAUDIBLE] way, when somebody has one

of these ideas-- like let's aggregate this [? wider ?] statistic and tell people, or I have a way to measure this, that, and the other about these people and mark up this thing on people's profiles-- how do they go about getting the go-ahead from everyone else in the company to spend some of their time technically working on that? Or get other people to work on it with them, and stuff like that? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: Mhm. I think that a lot of people-- I mean, the people who work at Facebook really like working at Facebook, I

think, for the most part, and spend a lot of their time doing that. And like, a lot of the time that they're spending, they spend working on stuff that might be sort of strategically important to what we're trying to do at that point. But also, a lot of people just mess around with the code base, and kind of put if-statements in there that's like, if the user is me, then put this in there. >> And so I walk around to different people's places during the day, or people come and talk to me. Like, I hold

CEO office hours as a joke, like from 2:00 to 4:00 every day-- not today. And people just come and show me different stuff that they're doing, and a lot of it is relatively cool, and stuff that I wouldn't have necessarily thought of. >> So I mean, you asked before if we were saving, if we were archiving, old profile information, and one of the reasons why I said that we might start doing it is because one of the guys at the company came up with something where it's like, so you go to your friend's page, and

it shows your recently updated friends. And then you click on that, and it shows their new profile. But there's no indication of what changed. >> So one of the guys made something that keeps an old version of his profile, and then makes it so that when you go to his profile when he updates it, it highlights in yellow the parts of it that were changed. And I think that that's pretty cool. And it's not a huge project-- I mean, it actually kind of is, if we have to start storing everyone's information. >> But I mean,

it's somewhat cool. It's not the type of thing that you necessarily are bound to come up, but I definitely think it's a pretty big improvement over what we have now. Now, it's really hard to go to someone's profile and tell what changed. And that's just the most recent example that I have. >> AUDIENCE: Do you have time to allow people to change the look of each page? [INAUDIBLE]? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: So, I don't want to do that. And the reason is because I think that Facebook is a directory, and the primary purpose is to look

up someone. Right? Like type in their name and get some information about them. And one of the things that's really useful is that everyone's page is structured in the same way. >> So if you want to see if someone's single, you don't have to scan down the columns until you get to relationship status. You just know where that is. So you click, go-- your eyes just go to that thing. But if you had different people changing their CSSes in different ways, then that could become annoying-- especially if people are doing stuff like dark blue text

on black backgrounds. It just gets kind of obnoxious. >> AUDIENCE: How successful has the Facebook [INAUDIBLE] been, and what do you see as differences in the purpose [INAUDIBLE]? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: The purpose-- for me, the high school one was the same. I think that the application-- this is going to probably sound pretty stupid-- but wanting to look people up, I think, is kind of a core human desire. Right? I think that people just want to know stuff about other people. So I think that providing an interface where people can just type in someone's name and

get some information about them is generally a pretty useful thing. So growth has been pretty good. >> It was tough to figure out exactly how to gauge it, because when we did college, we opened it up at Harvard. Then we opened it up at a couple colleges around Harvard. And the idea was always, we were really short on money and equipment. So while getting as little equipment as possible, we want to maximize our growth. So we want to launch at the schools that we think are going to grow the quickest, based on the fact that

the people at those schools are going to have the most number of friends at the schools that we're already at. We took a different approach for high school, because we could just launch it everywhere at the same time. So we didn't really know how it was going to grow. I think it's growing at more than 5,000 people a day, which is pretty good. Yeah? >> AUDIENCE: When you started Facebook, did you intend for it to become this full-fledged business? MARK ZUCKERBERG: No. AUDIENCE: Well, how did you [INAUDIBLE]? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: I remember thinking that it

would be cool if you could have a directory of everyone. I remember arguing with my parents about this, because after I almost got kicked out of school for this project that I did before Facebook, they were like, what good could possibly come of doing something new? And I'm like, no, this is pretty cool. Just imagine how cool it would be if you could just type in someone's name and get some information about them. And they were just like, I don't see it. And I'm like, well, we'll just do it at Harvard for now, but imagine

what happens if one day, you can just type in anyone's name and get some information about them. And like, that would be kind of cool, right? So they didn't buy it, but now they do. >> [LAUGHTER] >> Yeah, so I don't know. I guess at each phase, we're just kind of looking at a natural way to preserve the integrity of the network, and also to make it so that it's more useful-- I guess is the answer to that question. Yeah? >> AUDIENCE: Are there certain skills, particularly [INAUDIBLE], that you [INAUDIBLE] or you would suggest for

someone to study? MARK ZUCKERBERG: I just suggest that you take the hardest courses that you can, because you learn the most when you challenge yourself, right? So like 161 just ruined my life, and I learned so much from it. 121 I also found pretty hard. 124 kind of changed the way I thought about stuff. >> What 124 taught me that I think was really useful was that there are-- I think a lot of people focus on how to do stuff as well as possible, and how to make the most efficient algorithm. But what has always

gotten us by isn't doing stuff in the most efficient way, but laying the framework in a pretty efficient way. So I mean, it kind of teaches you both sides of the problem, like data structures and algorithms, and how the setup is really important. And that's definitely saved our ass in scaling a lot of times. >> I don't know. Work with smart people. Learn from people. AUDIENCE: One of the things that I've noticed about Facebook, compared to other social networking space, is that it's actually a lot easier to use. Do you have people-- like your employees

just putting whatever pieces they think are cool. Do you have separate stability people to ensure it all works all together? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: People can make whatever they want, but that doesn't mean they can put it on the site. So I think that before stuff goes on the site, a lot of people see it. I mean, I definitely check off on it before it can go live. But I mean, I think that people have a lot of creativity to do cool stuff. And a lot of times, it's like someone can come up with a cool

idea, but that doesn't mean it's the final way that it would happen. >> So for example, people highlighting in yellow what the changes are in their profile-- I think that just the concept of highlighting stuff that has changed is really good, but the interface that that guy used for it isn't what I think is the best one. And the way that he's storing the old profile information isn't optimal either. And that kind of is cool, because he was just doing it for himself. But if we were ever going to make something live out of that,

which I want to, we do in a different way. And it's more just like a mock-up. >> AUDIENCE: So like, the ideas come from the ground, up, and then [? it's just ?] [? tossed ?] [? down the line? ?] >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: I mean, it goes both ways. And I'm not completely unopinionated. MICHAEL D. SMITH: [INAUDIBLE]. >> AUDIENCE: I actually have a question about the [INAUDIBLE]. So, going back about the [INAUDIBLE] and [INAUDIBLE] privacy. And it's a different platform? >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah. >> AUDIENCE: So college people are over 18 and allowed to post

whatever pictures they want, and they're not really incriminating themselves, except possibly for drugs and alcohol? I've seen pictures on Facebook where my younger cousins are drinking and stuff like that. But when you go to the high school kids, they're 15 and 16 and younger. >> And are you guys just saying, it's the internet, and if they want to incriminate themselves and things like that, is that OK? Or do you guys filter the pictures that high school students put up and the information they write? Or do you just [INAUDIBLE]? MARK ZUCKERBERG: So a lot of the

solutions that we come up with stuff aren't technical or organizational, but just applying social pressure in good ways. So Myspace has-- almost a third of their staff is monitoring the pictures that get uploaded for pornography. We hardly ever have any pornography uploaded, and I think that a lot of the reason is that people use their real names on Facebook, and your real email address for school. And if you have that, then you're not going to upload pornography. And I think that that's a really simple social solution to a possibly complex technical issue. >> So that

said, we changed some of the features around for high school. For example, we took parties out, because we figured that parents would get pissed off or they would just break up all the keg parties really quickly, and that would suck for everyone. >> [CHUCKLES] >> I don't know. We deemphasize contact information in high school. Yeah. AUDIENCE: All right, we end here. If you have other questions, feel free to come down and talk to Mark. Thank you very much. >> MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah. [APPLAUSE]