The Naval Podcast - Naval Ravikant with BeerBiceps | TRS

this was one of the biggest days of my podcasting career that's the magic of naal ravikant Nal rant Nal ravikant founder of Angel Del no rikan Naro rakan the founder of angelist which is a giant business I mean Global I I wonder if you've ever thought of that reality if your parents didn't leave India and go to the US how would your life be different according to you the first time I used an Apple computer it was an old Macintosh I just fell in love with it at some point if you have high agency you

will end up where you're meant to go it's just going to take some effort did it do anything for your mind I kind of sometimes have these near-death exercises where it's just like I imagine myself dying it's like you can see things fading out they call orgasm the petite more The Little Death right did you ever smoke weed you know I live in California well the common belief now is that like mushrooms are harmless right they're not do you miss your childhood I don't have a it's like a dream is it real actually happened B

has had a great saying in every human there is a sense that something infinite has been lost wow has marriage brought further understanding when it comes to life there's a secret to a happy relationship is to happy people you know what I've learned about marriage one's wife is always right and that's the rule one should follow yes I reject that completely uh yeah people say like happy wife happy life that's all propaganda that's all feminine propaganda you're being brainwashed no both people have to be equally happy really you know from the outside looking in I

personally have this impression of Naval rikan the brand and the human and I feel like nothing hurts that guy I'm a very paranoid person so my rule is I don't fight with people if somebody wants to fight with me we get one fight and then it's over there's a lot of people out there and life is long do you pray if you are older in life and you don't have the Next Generation to look forward to then you better find God fast because I don't think like your own mind and your own life will be

kind to you as you get older if you know who Naval ravikant is please head straight into the conversation this intro is primarily crafted for those of you who are being introduced to Naval ravikant for the first time surprisingly there's a lot of people in India who are yet to be introduced to who I consider to be the greatest philosopher of our times I genuinely believe that history will remember him as one of the greatest Minds that lived in the 21st century he's an extremely humble extremely relaxed individual so I know that this intro is

going to bother him on some level that's the side of Naval that I got to know through this conversation this is the most casual conversation that the internet has ever seen with this man it was one of the biggest honors of my own podcasting career to be sharing screen space and podcasting space with Naval ravikant if I had to introduce him professionally of course I'd tell you how he's one of the most iconic Angel Investors in the world of course i' tell you about how he's one of the most important thought leaders for Silicon Valley

and the world of Global Twitter or X it's Naval ravikant on the RV show this is one of the most memorable episodes for me on a personal level but if you're looking for depth in conversation it doesn't get deeper than Naval rikan's mind it's Naval on TRS huge day for my career honestly huge day for my own Human Experience enjoy the [Music] episode this is one of the biggest days of my podcasting career but I'm also feeling supremely comfortable that's the magic of Nel ravian oh you're very nice welcome to the ren show sir thank

you thanks for having me uh visualize this moment so much over the years so as I told you in the car ride on the way here uh I'm full of gratitude and as we go forward in this conversation I'm going to pour more and more gratitude on you uh when we were on our way here from the network state conference I saw how much you were hounded uh people just want to come up and say that they love you uh this takes me back to that Joe Rogan episode you did in 2019 are you aware

of how many young men's lives that episode affected I have no idea why to be honest I feel like I just said the same things I was saying they're kind of obvious and maybe uh don't be so easily influenced really yeah think for yourself you know decide for yourself you know how I look at it so in 2019 I was 26 running four businesses parall getting extremely stressed out but those two hours of that episode created switches in me and my journey from age 26 to age 31 has been much more lubricated especially from a

mental health perspective so you've done a lot for the mental health of many men all over the world how how much do we really figure out ourselves right there's like there there's what are the different kinds of knowledge this weth thinking through right I'm just thinking it through with you so there's Knowledge from direct experience right you experience something and that generates knowledge inside of you there's knowledge that you pick up from other sources you just a vessel that's passing through you you picked it up you synthesize it you regurgitate there's uh knowledge that you

create which is rare um um I don't know if I said anything original really yeah I don't know I don't know but I think you accumulated a lot of data which is back by years of reading and research I think if I were to look back I would say that the only true knowledge I have is the knowledge that is uh directly verified by me and uh fits in with the other pieces so I view myself as a very basic thinker really yeah I don't view myself as an advanced thinker I'm not an expert in

anything but what I like to do is everything that comes my way I like to deeply understand it as simply as possible I have to be able to put it in simple words and simple Frameworks and simple Concepts and I have to be able to do it uh almost visually in my mind and exponentially have to map it to some experience that I have and then I have to be able to take that and I have to be able to plug it into something else I understand it has to fit in a steel frame of

understanding at the basics of knowledge uh so for example mathematics I was never very good at mathematics I wanted to be a physicist but I I wasn't good at calculus but my basic math is really really good um the same way I don't have the largest vocabulary but I have a very solid vocabulary and I can be very precise with my words even when I speak I'm not the fastest speaker I'm not the slowest speaker so I think for me it's just about I don't take there's a great uh motto from the Royal Society which

was the Society of scientists in uh Britain during their Enlightenment era and uh the motto of the royal so Society is nullus and verba I'm sorry if I'm mangling the Latin but it means take no one's word for it and I love that uh take no one's word for it so I think uh we are encouraged these days to take in knowledge pour it into our heads like a bucket and uh we regurgitate it and we use fancy words to cover up what we don't mean what we don't know and I don't accept that unless

I understand something at its core fundamental level I don't understand it and then beyond that level I get bored I don't care to understand it so I think just being able to be very particular about what you take in make sure you truly understand it and that it is true truth is the most important thing because if you're going ahead with falsehoods because they're convenient you're just going to walk around bumping your head against reality and wondering why it hurts so it's important to just always look for the truth figure it out for yourself make

sure it fits into your understanding be open to revising it because you're always wrong it's just question of how wrong you are uh and then using that to uh find the commonalities in life and and navigate it and I think that's why uh you're better off asking someone like me about very basic things uh than about very Advanced things can I ask you a basic question sure yeah please what's the meaning of life we talk about this for hours I think about it all the time I think about it I I want to kind of

reframe it a little bit sure yeah uh what's new right now in life for you it's been 5 years since that Joe Rogan episode and we got to know you so deeply then yeah but what's happened in the last five years I don't I don't I don't uh retrospect on myself I don't think about myself that's what's new no no I just don't I I couldn't tell you because I don't think about myself I don't think about what's changed in my life and if my life is good or bad or if this happened or that

happened and I don't look at all photos of me and I don't think about old trips and I think about people that are gone you know I don't I don't think about the past I just don't live in the past at all do you pray uh not in the traditional sense no uh I think prayer implies some kind of an external entity that I'm asking something for and sure like every person I might have done that here or there um usually we're fair weather friends with any God that's out there right when we need help

we're like all prayer and when we don't we're like everything's good it's all me right so no I don't I don't pray in the traditional sense uh but I am very deeply I hate the word but it's spiritual right and I would Define spiritual in a negative way it just means not mental not physical right so but why do you hate the words because it's overloaded with a lot of religiosity um all of a sudden you're supposed to be a spiritual being you're supposed to do yoga you're supposed to meditate and you're supposed to sit

cross- lugged and you're supposed to you know then you argue about is the bagat Gita or the asash Gita or the you know all of these roads lead to the same place um the the the best way I would SU Ariz my thinking on this is that I think existence itself is a miracle the oldest questions are why is there something instead of nothing why are we here what's the meaning of life these are all just variants in the same question and there is no answer to that does that mean there can never be an

answer to that no not necessarily but if you start going down that road you'll find all kinds of contradictions for example with just the meaning of life right if there was a single meaning of life then we would all be slaves to it suppose the meaning of life was to help others and we would all be running around trying to help others and you know there'd be no room for the individual if the meaning of life was to you know be strong and fit and healthy then we'd all be working out um we'd all be

I don't know how beer and biceps go together but you know we'd all be building our biceps so it's better that there is no overarching singular meaning of life it's better that there are personal interpretations got um however within those personal interpretations you know we we all have even though we have complete freedom to choose any meaning that we want and we can create our own meaning at any moment um there are certain common things in what we all want as well and so that's kind of the Paradox of being a human individual where you're

completely an individual but you're also completely Interlink to everything and anything that exists you couldn't change you couldn't change a particle in the universe without changing this moment right not in any meaningful way um although that's not entirely true there are error correcting mechanisms built into into the structure of the universe so uh but a lot of things had to cons in a very particular way to bring us here together today right um so in that sense everything is very interconnected on the other hand my life is and your lives are single player games inside

our heads you know we interpret everything from birth to death uh your experience of uh your experiences are singular to you uh no one will truly ever understand you or get you uh and you're always searching for that Unity that connection that that going back to uh you know Oneness Source togetherness whatever you want to call it Community there's many words for it in terms of uh you know back to meaning of life the way I think of it is that existence itself is a miracle and everything else is science and I think that's the

best of all possible worlds so spirituality is a side that lies on what who am I why am I here how long have I got what am I here for and these are questions that are really only answerable at a personal level this miraculous little world that we're in is beautifully put together I couldn't I couldn't do a better job for sure for sure I couldn't even begin to do the job and just to give you some ideas as to you know just some observations how well it's put together the fact that science works that's

magic technology works that is Magic you go back and you read books on magic or magicians or fantasy books they don't have a hundred of the power that we have they don't have self-driving cars they don't have smartphones they don't have antibiotics they don't have Rockets um they don't even have fantasy novels they don't even have clean running water they don't have reliable food they don't have food delivery services right uh so we are already living in an age of Miracles that the best part is we can control and the magic spells that we cast

are under the opice of science the Wizardry that we create is through technology and that's all manipulable through laws and and rules and systems that we discover and we discover and we create and that is incredible we're all magicians I wouldn't I couldn't ask for a better system if an actual Miracle showed up afterwards supposed somebody showed up and turned uh loaves into fish or water into wine that would destroy our world because all of a sudden you be like oh my God there's all these rules for this new thing that we don't understand how

it works so now science is junk and you wouldn't know how to navigate the world and now You' be the mercy of demons and angels and spirits and you'd be running around worshiping and praying then you would pray because you'd be like how do I make sense of this world so I think we live in the best of all possible worlds okay uh I think the geography that one grows up in definitely determines their mindset in life to a large degree and uh personally my take on spirituality is affected by growing up in India you

read books like the autobiography of your Yogi you read the life of the Buddha uh I definitely feel that there's a higher stage of Consciousness and I don't feel like we've reach the final state of evolution uh there is definitely an end point which is also beyond the next stage of evolution uh and I do believe that you know you say that Cal a calm mind is earned MH I think that's one of the steps on the ladder and then there's like higher stage mhm I I don't know how useful it is to prognosticate about

where humanity is headed unless you get there yourself first uh and and you don't have the ability to do anything for anyone unless you embody it yourself uh so so to the extent that you think humanity is headed there I say get there first and then show them the way I definitely think that Nal rant is already on that ladder as compared to other human beings I have no idea where I'm on that ladder you don't think you're slightly more evolved no I I don't that's a loaded question uh first of all I don't think

of myself I I just want to be clear on that and that's not a rule it's just a habit I've kind of developed because I found that thinking about yourself is a source of all unhappiness and misery really yes self-obsession is the root of all unhappiness what did Buddha do conquer the self what does that mean means that he saw through the illusion of the separate self what does that did Buddha think about himself not for an instant you know anyone that you think of as an enlightened being does not think about themselves for an

instant the happiest people in life when people are their best is because uh they love something more than they love themselves they love their children they love God they love their mission what have you and all misery comes from rumination from sitting around being depressed going in circles in your own head about me me me me is a disease and uh you need the a concept of a me to be effective and to keep track of things you have a memory you have certain predictions your personality patterns but the more you self- obsessed the less

happy you're going to be I guarantee you that and I'm not doing I'm not saying I don't think about myself to be happy I can't even tell you why I don't think about myself I think it just comes from having thought through a lot of things and then just I I get interested in topics and Concepts and ideas and understandings and the more that I sort of focus that way the less I just end up thinking about myself so even like you know people ask me like oh how's your day going I'm like I have

no idea I don't think about it really yeah good maybe if I'm really tired I'll say okay I'm tired you know if something really bad happened like oh it wasn't a great day but most of the time I couldn't even tell you my own State of Mind okay cuz I'm not interested in it I don't think it's interesting it's interesting for us and I'll give you some perspective here yeah we were one of the first podcasts in India uh currently the biggest and I feel that's an outcome of constantly tearing apart people's chest getting into

their hearts and getting to know them because in India we're emotional people and we want to know the emotions of others we want to know what's in other people's mind or it's dumb luck cuz you started early I'm just kidding or or that of course not I'm just joking with you luck is definitely a part of me I mean look luck favors are prepared uh Joe Rogan uh is incredibly successful because he was doing podcasting before his podcasting he was the top guy on Ustream which was just like a streaming thing on the internet before

podcasting came along so uh there's a certain kind of person that it takes to be early you make your own luck in that sense I actually luck is luck is one of those things that you shouldn't believe in even if it's true because believing it will hurt your agency just like victim mentality right thinking you're a victim even if it's true don't believe it because it'll just hurt your agency because you have no power as a victim you have no power if things are up to luck uh whatever power you have in life comes from

believing that you can change things and do things and even if you can't change the outside you can at least change the inside No One controls your mind but you um so yeah it's it's not luck I was jok talking the question I have for you is while all of us sit in India and view Naval ravikant ruling the internet in so many ways uh a lot of Indians feel very proud okay to see someone from India uh you know who shares genetics with us uh kind of kill it on a world stage uh so

I've had this thought experiment lately as I've been researching for this episode I thought to myself that what if Noel's parents didn't leave India and what if he was in Delhi I'm pretty sure you'd still uh take up some form of Entrepreneurship knowing your personality because I think there's some traits that don't change uh but then there's a lot that changes because of geography I I wonder if you've ever thought of that reality if your parents didn't leave India uh and go to the US how would your life be different according to you I don't

I don't want to downplay geography at all I actually think where you live is the single most important decision you make uh but the first part of that is making a decision uh I like to think that even if my parents had not immigrated to the US I would have probably done so at a later age because I was ambitious uh and I wanted to be around smart people and I wanted to build things uh when I immigrated to the US I was not in any position to go to Silicon Valley and build things I

had to kind of you know claw my way there um and I got there a little later than I should have frankly but at any given time in the world's history there's usually only one or two places that really matter in terms of moving the world forward so there was a time when it was Athens in ancient Greece there's a time when it was Florence in Italy there's a time when it was uh London in the United Kingdom and the the time when I was kind of coming into my formative years it was Silicon Valley

and I knew that I the first time I used an Apple computer it was an old Macintosh in uh the computer room in my high school I just fell in love with it and I and I just knew that I had to get closer to uh Apple that that was the thing that pulled me in when I got to Silicon Valley the first thing I did was with my bags I went in a taxi straight from the airport to app's headquarters and I wandered around um and I'd read this book by Guy Kawasaki called the

Macintosh way that was very inspirational to me so at some point if you are if you have high agency if you're a person that's selfmotivated which I think almost everybody watching this is um you will end up where you're meant to go it's just going to take some effort the universe drops plenty of opportunity around you but it's not necessarily on your head and you have to walk over there and pick it up your podcast didn't build itself for example counterfactuals are impossible to do like uh yes if you had gone if you had immigrated

to the US early you'd probably be doing a podcast in the US um or uh you know if you weren't born a podcaster you found your way to being a podcaster so even though yes there's luck involved there's counterfactuals involved there's immigration involved don't believe that stuff you know it's better to uh just kind of take responsibility both externally and internally externally for what you manag to do and internally for how you feel about it uh like one of my little tweets to myself and all the good ones are to myself was I and I

alone am responsible for everything I think and feel um so for example if I get mad at somebody about something it's my fault why am I mad why am I making myself angry um why can't I just deal with the same situation in a cool calm and collected way why do I have to show to or not even show why do I have to lose control because anger is a loss of self-control why why am I still so broken inside that that happens so I I kind of reject this line of questioning to be honest

you know what if what if what if who cares what if we're here um you know you constantly talk about that steel framework thing you say that learn the first principles yes um while we were at the event a lot of the people backstage were like ask navel about how he achieved this level of clarity and I understand that you focus on first principles thinking but what's underneath that thought like did you read a book at some point in life that pointed you towards it no no no no no I I think uh when I

was young my dad wasn't around much and uh he was gone he had to he immigrated to the US before the rest of us did it took four years where he could pull us there and then my parents went through divorce and so on so one good thing was I never had anybody telling me what to do ever um and I had to figure everything out for myself and I think that helps a lot it makes you very high agency um I also nobody in my like my aunts and my mom they loved us to

death but there was nobody saying this is right that's wrong do it this way don't do it that way so you figure it out for yourself and started with reading but eventually just goes to thinking but I don't think there's anything special I I think I think deep down everybody wants to understand things right everybody wants to learn everyone's curious all children are curious any young child they'll be asking questions all day long and I think the trick is just don't stop asking questions and keep asking questions until you can answer something your own satisfaction

um maybe I had the luxury of the time to read you know that's helpful because it helps answer questions when you're younger at least some some reading a lot of too much reading or reading the wrong things can be bad too right because you can stuff your head with the wrong things I I I guess for for decades I did not feel like I was that smart because what would happen is I would talk to somebody and they'd say well there's this and that and there's this and they would just start using big terms and

big words and defining huge things and and it took me a long time to figure out they didn't know what they were talking about if someone's using a lot of big words you know it's the mark of a charlatan to explain simple things in a complex way and uh it's a mark of a Genius Like Richard Fineman to to explain complicated things in simple ways the smartest people actually understand what they're talking about so they can explain it in plain English they don't need to resort to abstractions they don't need to impress and a lot

of times with abstractions are leaky you poke at them and it doesn't quite map or it doesn't mean what what they think it means um I'd rather like stick and I'm a failed physicist I wanted to be a physicist so and my ma math wasn't good enough plus I wanted to make money so it didn't work out but uh I was surrounded by a lot of physicists and I read a lot of physics and so I felt dumb compared to the other physicists and so I I well I you're not going to trick a physicist

you're not going to walk in and start talking physics and then suddenly like you you say something that's wrong they're going to call you on it physics is very rigorous and same thing with computer science which I did end up studying is the code has to compile the code has to run the code has to work you can't you can't trick the machine using words and so I think having a grounding in scientific disciplines around scientific people forces you to be rigorous and humble about your actual sphere of knowledge uh you can't Bluff people um

systems in which you get feedback like real feedback uh free markets and nature right you can't trick nature I can't lie to Nature uh and I can't trick free markets all end up broke so these systems give you very good feedback and they force you into being rigorous um but it's very easy to trick people so if you're in politics if you're in law if you're in journalism if you're in media uh if you're just you know bsing with your friends it's very easy to trick people and then you get social rewards you don't get

the negative feedback and that gets baked into your personality your identity your way of thinking uh so I think I was fortunate enough to be scientifically uh to get scientific feedback and to be pushed back upon through science and scientific people um also grew up in a tough environment so it was a no BS environment you had to be correct so you know when you're trying to survive you have to be correct uh when you have an abundance of resources and things are easy you don't have to be right because you there's cushions everywhere in

the environment for you um so maybe I was forged that way but like I said I don't I don't introspect much I don't it doesn't really matter to me it's ancient history all that matters is here because this is all there is so let's talk about the Hein now yeah uh you're 50 now yeah has your definition of Love changed at all love is just it's one of these overloaded words it's like Freedom you know it means anything you want but what does love mean okay I I think so what is love okay this romantic

love which we're all familiar with Bollywood thrives on that right that's that's an attachment thing it's like I love you if you love me let's go have kids together yes this a biological programming it's there it's important it's good to have that's not the real love or you love like a fanboy like how all of us love you yeah love love is a feeling of unity it's the it's the attraction to yourself actually it is seeing yourself in something else and then kind of wanting to complete with it um so you can have a spiritual

love which is a love for Oneness or God you can have a love for your children because they're just part of you you can have a love for your community because it's it's like you you can have love for your ideas so love is attraction in that sense it's like a it's a positive attraction where you you see the unity in the thing with you and you don't necess want anything out of it and you know that's a that's a genuine love um the nice thing about love is if you think back in your life

to when you were loved a lot right like you were loved by your parents great wonderful to be loved by your parents some point you took it for granted let's be honest we all take our parents for granted that's one of the things you learn as a parent yourself you're like oh my God my parents put up with all of this they were Saints right um You you really only start valuing your parents when you have your own children then you realize what a one-way relation relationship that love relationship and it's fine that's the way

it's meant to be even your parents they want what's best for you they want you to love your kids not to love them back at the same level so uh one of the things you learn about love is okay when you're receiving love you take it for granted and it can even be a little too much like for example someone's attracted to you and you're not attracted to them you're like right the overzealous fan you know the girl the guy who's like chasing you around you're like I don't really know I don't I'm not really

into this so that kind of love is the love that we think we want but we don't really I mean yes we want a little bit of it so we don't feel completely alone and and it makes us feel safe but it's not really the love that you want now think back to when you were in love when you're in love with an idea how you just work on it passionately when you're in love with let's say God or spirituality how you're just taken and you're you're you're swept away or when you're even in love

with a person you're in love with a woman or your love with a man and all of a sudden everything is brighter and everyone's happier and you're just like walking on Cloud9 the feeling of being in love is greater than the feeling of being loved is my point okay and you can be in love anytime you want and how do you be in love well you can't be forced right you can't buy love you can't force love but I will say a commonality is generally the less you are thinking about yourself going back to what

I was saying earlier the more you're going to be able to love other people and other things so for example the Buddhas uh you know I you know people will sometimes say well that's not a Buddha cuz that person is not loving enough well that's that's not necessarily true love is not a requirement for being a Buddha but it is an output of being a Buddha because a Buddha is a person who has seen through the illusion of the separate self uh and once they've seen through the illusion of the separate self they're no longer

self- obsessed and therefore their love that was earlier turned inwards and became ego love for the self went outwards and it still flows uh as a very simple example you know here's something I uh uh is a little embarrassing but I'll be vulnerable you like vulnerable vulnerability right so I I I I kind of sometimes have these near-death exercises right where it's just like I imagine myself dying and it's not something that I do deliberately just kind of happens the the moments when you go into bed but before you fall asleep are really interesting because

your mind goes into a really hazy almost psychedelic State and and I used to meditate a lot and somewhere along the way I just found that state between sleeping and waking to be really entertaining and entertaining entertaining yeah it's just entertaining so next time you're falling asleep just make a just just the smallest effort because if you make any real effort you'll fall you won't be able to sleep but make the smallest effort just to be aware of your thoughts as you're falling asleep as you're going to sleep and your thoughts start going wackier and

wackier and wackier and they will just get wild like I'll have cats talking to me and you know just like weird stuff going in and out just it's like dreams you're you're basically lucid dreaming as you're falling asleep and they're the craziest dream they don't make any sense it's all nonsense You observe your own thoughts as you're about to fall asleep as I'm about to fall asleep that's when that's when your thoughts start going off the rails you stop thinking about like what am I doing tomorrow and how to work go today and you just

start having these wacky random Connections in your head and it can be really fun to watch I was doing it just as an entertainment thing the an exploratory thing what have you found out I'm not looking to find anything so I think that's part of curiosity you have to be a little careful because if you go looking for something in particular then you're only open to seeing that thing and that's not how you find anything that's true um but it it's just pure mere curiosity it's it's an entertaining State that's that's a fine reason to

do it right we do everything because we enjoy it at the end of the day if you didn't you wouldn't do it right or you want to not NE enjoy it but you do it because you want to um so I did it just because I wanted to and once in a while once in a while and I'm not trying to suggest anything because again if I suggest something then it's not going to happen for you but you know I'll basically feel like I'm dying so I'm falling asleep but I feel like I'm dying it's

like you can see things fading out right and as you fall asleep the the French uh no that's not they call orgasm the petite more The Little Death right but uh but it's also because your mind shuts down right so what's happening is your your mind is shutting down from waking to sleeping State and that's kind of a death transition you can kind of feel like you're dying and you can literally see thoughts going offline your mind goes offline and as your mind goes offline pay atten attention to what remains pay attention to what actually

remains and don't be afraid of it don't be AF you're just falling asleep but like I said sometimes it feels like you're dying and don't be afraid of death right you just kind of go with it it's what's just what's happening and then as your mind disappears as things disappear as things Fade Out of existence see what remains okay there's a version of something like this that I do for me the last two thoughts are always the girl I'm seeing and or uh the God I know MH which is just Universal energy yeah these are

all manifestations of what you would call love right this is this is you stop thinking about yourself because thoughts are what Drive the self- obsession the self is ultimately just a thought it's a it's a the self is a thought that I am a separate creature I'm a body I'm a mind and if you truly were not thinking like you're in deep meditation or you're on a psychedelic or you're a Buddha you wouldn't have a thought of the self and you would just be you just be be aware that's all that's all there is I

think the difference in your state of consciousness and mine is one you're much older and you've seen life and by older I mean brain older not physical body older you're a wiser human being and I think over the years you've just learned to observe and pick up data from everywhere U my early life experiences kind of catered me towards a deep sense of what we call bti in India which is uh nisat prame or unselfish love towards the Divine it's just an outcome of living in India in my eyes yeah no I I what matters

is truth not who says what or what where you lived or what book you read what just matters is what's true and that you can figure out for yourself and you can figure it out just as well as me and you probably have your your core experience of of your awareness same as mine every emotion you felt I felt every emotion I felt you felt we're human no Human Experience is alien to us so we can have all the same feelings and thoughts just in different levels and different bases um i s i s I

sort of reject this idea that I'm Wiser or more advanced I don't think that's true no if I was wise I'd be a Buddha I'm not so it's like you know two ants debating like you know who's smarter and there's like a there's like a human walking around over there right what ises it matter okay not in our eyes because for a lot of dudes in their 20s and 30s you are what we want to become especially from a peace perspective I'm the same guy I've always been and I wouldn't even say I'm that peaceful

my mind is a wreck really yeah I'm always like my mind's always running all over the place it's it's it's always active you know how you said that happiness is peace and motion mhm uh that's something that stayed with me over the years and it's something I practiced the the person who's going to know the most about weight loss is the person who was fat as a kid the person who's going to know the most about peace and happiness is the one who was the most miserable inside so don't take from anything I write to

say that I'm some peaceful Zen Buddha inside I'm not my mind still runs out of control it's I'm a crazy person I'm a I'm a crazy person who's trying to be a little less crazy and observing my own craziness that that's how I can come back to you and say like you know when I started tweeting a lot uh about anything other than technology so I I you know I was an investor in Twitter early on small investor in 2007 and Twitter really launched and started getting big around 2010 not even big it was still

small but I was active on Twitter from the start but around 2012 2013 I was going through a tough period and that's when I started tweeting uh the stuff that I was supposed to tweet and I you know I started getting feedback from people in the environment who were like hey that's weird you know you're like a VC you're like an entrepreneur people not going to trust you they think you're strange are you high you know that was like a constant uh thing and I was just like I I don't care I'm just writing to

myself right and and I was writing down my crazier and crazier thoughts uh and I for a long time I got no positive feedback on it which is fine it's actually fine because if you if you're doing it for positive feedback you're eventually going to end up doing the right the wrong thing right I like burning my audience I like occasionally I'll tweet things that I don't completely believe that are a little incendiary because I want to find all the people who get easily triggered so I can block them uh I just want to blow

them out I don't care about followers followers are worthless right if easy mechanism to adjust your friend list yeah if you're if you're if you're doing anything for followers your followers are worthless uh you know who would you have rather follow you 10 people that you respect that are intelligent and interesting and wise or like a million monkeys so the the follower count thing is utterly worthless and I don't even want followers I only want peer relationships um because follower is kind of a weird thing now this this person's not thinking for themselves and uh

no what what every intelligent person craves is other intelligent people right to help things things through uh and to kind of bond with but um I don't know where I was going with this but yeah screw followers anyway yeah I was I was tweeting and I was tweeting like the craziness in my mind right I was I'm a crazy person and so I was just going through my own head and trying to sort out my own thoughts and it's a complete mess and uh it turns out that we all have the same internal thoughts and

we all have the same internal experiences we all do we have them in different order maybe we interpret different things from them but we all have the same feelings so every time I put out some late night tweet with some crazy thought you know people around the world would just be like yeah I'm thinking that too um I forget who said this there was a great line that I read a long time ago but it was something like oh I think it was Emerson uh and he said uh you know in every genius we see

our own ordinary thoughts but they come back to us with a certain alienated Majesty right so it's it's just the willingness to say it combined with saying it in an interesting way so what I realized was that what I liked about Twitter it was like an open Journal which forced me to craft my thoughts it would give me feedback obviously because people will come out and correct you even if you're correct and what I enjoyed writing was I liked saying things that I thought were true that were novel to me in that moment obviously anything

I can think of somebody else has probably thought of with very few exceptions so it was something novel to me something that was true and I would say it in an interesting way so that I would remember it uh and because I read a lot as a kid I tried writing I wasn't I didn't have the patience to be a long form writer I wrote a few blog posts and never even wrote a book and uh I tried poetry um because I like reading poetry but I didn't care to learn meter and Rhythm and rhyme

I just cared about the words and the and how evocative they were and so Twitter was a perfect medium for me it allowed me to be to use word selection and simple Framing and explanation to really hone down things that I thought to be true and were interesting to me and write them as notes to myself and to this day like every day I go on Twitter and someone's quote tweeted me on something or there's like some Nal bot that's like thrown up a noal quote and I look at them I'm like oh I should

follow that advice damn that was good like that was written to me that's a note to sell from me from five years ago I should take my own advice it's kind of like you're growing up in front of the world yeah it's and we're all always growing up right we're all we're all always on this journey of self-discovery this single player game or we're alone inside but yet we're deeply interconnected because we're all having the same thoughts the same emotions the same experiences with maybe different interpretations often the same interpretations the great questions in life

the meaning of life or you know what am I doing here or what should I do uh they all have paradoxical answers uh so for example you know does life have any meaning uh I could say no life is meaningless you you arrive with nothing you die nothing survives you you don't remember anything as far as you're concerned the moment you close your eyes at last time the entire universe disappears it's like a dream that never happened poof no meaning okay on the other hand I could say actually life has infinite meaning uh every moment

is connected to every other moment you can this it's the only thing that actually exists uh you can ascribe complete and utter meaning to it right uh another question you ask is am I alone and yeah of course you're completely alone no one else knows your thoughts you're single point of awareness nobody else can have that same point of awareness and any two points are infinitely different in space on the other hand it could say no of course you're not alone the entire universe had to conspire to to bring you here at this moment it's

all particle collisions from The Big Bang till now and then poof here you are and uh how can you and everything that you do is a function of your environment and your genes neither of which you selected so you're not alone you're just you're you're part of everything you're you're indispensable part of everything um so all of these great questions are paradoxical answers uh and that's one of the ways that you know you're dealing with one of the great questions uh and it turns out you know if you think it through the reason when when

you see these par OES often what you'll find is that the question is being asked you know what is the meaning of life but then it's being answered at two different levels and one level is a level of the individual separate self which says oh the meaning is just what I ascribe to it um and then sometimes you answer it there's a slate of hand and you answer it the level of the universal self where you say well of course you know the meaning is the universe or the meaning is life itself um or like

am I alone if you answer that at the individual level then the answer is yes if you answer at the universal level the answer is no so the paradoxical answers come from do you choose to take do you choose to adopt the Viewpoint of yourself as a separate person or do you take the Viewpoint of your spiritual self uh and we jump between those those contradictions very Loosely without paying attention and we end up with these paradoxical answers and we think the the question is not solvable but that's not entirely true it is solvable it's

just which level are you speaking from so for example going back to the Buddha a Buddha not the Buddha but a Buddha any Buddha any enlightened person they don't have any sense of persistent separate self and so they're always answering at the universal level and in that sense they're freed of contradictions and I think the reason we admire those people is because we ourselves want to be freed of this internal contradiction uh Bor has had a great saying that uh in every human there is a sense that something infinite has been lost wow and uh

I love that phrase uh because to me that's kind of if if I think about kind of what's going on here right I can't prove it so at the end of the day you should figure it out for yourself but I think what's going on here is that there is a universal self which is just raw awareness and that's all there is everything in your experience is awareness in my eyes based on what I've read and learned through the show uh I feel like Hinduism explores exactly this question what is the infinite s yeah H

Hinduism gets closer than anybody else but any ISM isn't going to quite get you there cuz it's an individual thing you know the word Hinduism is not like by modern day Hindus we we refer to it as sanatan D which is like the Eternal fith yeah and what I like about Hinduism is that it lets kind of everybody find their own way and you can pick your God you can pick your path it's a buffet yeah it's a buffet and but it has to be because there are as many paths as there are people uh

and because you create an individual story right there's kind of an awareness or a Consciousness everything that you experience experience is in this awareness it arises in the awareness it's probably made of awareness it's known by awareness so what else is there everything is intermediated through your awareness and then on top of that you layer your identity and your body and your problems and your issues and your achievements and your desires and then eventually you unlayer all of that and you lose that and you go back to this undifferentiated awareness which has kind of always

been around it's hypothesis I don't know if it's true a lot of people say it you know um and I do read a lot of old Indian texts oh really yeah well like I I'm a fan of uh obviously everyone says bhagad Gita but I like the ashtavakra Gita if You' read that one uh that's yeah didn't expect you to say that no Ash vakar is amazing uh vista's yoga which has a lot of the Enlightenment stories uh Herman Hesh wrote that book sidartha which is kind of a fictionalized Buddha story um but you know

then I've read you know Raja yoga and autobiography of Yogi and all that stuff Oso Krishna MTI blah blah blah Dello uh Michael if if it's I got into would call Enlightenment porn and I tracked down about a dozen of these people in real life and I interviewed them and I met them I spent time with them and I meditated and I did all that stuff but the conclusion I kind of came to is that you got to figure it out yourself all that stuff is inspirational but and uh you can only kind of do

it if you want to like right now I'm on YouTube and I'm watching uh old Krishna myy talks I'm watch watching papa Muji Rupert spir uh ascendor random Youtube videos the guy has like 10 followers but he's enlightened the YouTube algorithm is really good it finds Enlighten good people if you just click around far enough um but obviously at some level I'm not fully serious about it because if I was serious about it I would be there but there is a greater truth out there again this is a bit of a compliment to you in

my eyes um you're the definition of what a sanatani is in terms of exploration and collecting knowledge and then coming to a conclusion about life and the Divine yourself based on your own experiences and knowledge then using the shastras the ancient books as reference points so that's just how I I think we all want to know the truth and there's little truths and there's big truths and there's bigger truths and this is probably the biggest truth right and I did cheat I skipped to the end I looked at the answer uh might have been a

mistake to be honest because the the point is not to earn a PhD in Enlightenment actually be enlightened right and so I don't know exactly how you get there there doesn't seem to be a copyable path but I'm still fascinated with it my mind is still circling the drain on it does the Mahabharat have any influence on your mind I don't remember remember too well I I think uh now this is where I'm going to just offend a lot of people but I think that's mostly historical uh thing obviously everything you know old Indian mythology

has a lot of uh spirituality weaved into it but no it's not one that I've spent much time on okay it's more the philosophies like the ashaka Gita and all that yeah I love the ashaka Gita it's incredible the song of self-realization yeah when you're reading that stuff yeah is there a part of your DNA that feels stimulated being Indian you everyone keeps trying to nail me on this uh on being Indian it's it's it's it's a very brown person thing to do well I think I think we want a certain pride in being Indian

right because it was stripped off because it was stripped off I think that's exactly right and I sort of reject that it was stripped off really in the sense that I'm just like hey I'm equally valid right I don't consider myself inferior to anyone I don't consider Superior to anyone so in that sense like don't let them strip you in the first place that you have to then go needing it fulfill it and and re really only the individual can can truly transcend only the individual can rise above whatever is facing them um so putting

your faith in a group identity you're sort of Bound for disappointment I mean how many Indians are there it's over a billion right so there's going to be as many points of differentiation as their commonality it's not like all billion Indians link arm and March do the same thing we're not we're not ants um so at least I approach it more from an individual level I'm happy to be Indian I have no objections with it I think it's a rich culture uh and I think it's you know helped me a lot and half the books

I read these days were written by Indians you know back in the day almost all the philosophy I read is Eastern philosophy um and the little bit of Western philosophy that I like uh schopenhauer and Emerson were incredibly and D they were incredibly influenced by Eastern philosophy they basically just cribed Eastern philosophy and they put it in western words right um because Eastern philosophy has the virtue of being correct it's true right right uh one side says well you know God has this shape this skin color this size lived at exactly this time and has

exactly these rules like skeptical you know the other side says well you are the self that you're looking for it's all inside of you you have to figure it out for yourself and you know here are some practical steps that you can take towards self-realization that seems more you know that seems more correct um I think it's an outcome of just kind of being older like you had more time to contemplate I think anyone who is highly truth seeking will eventually find their way to Eastern philosophy uh because it has the virtue of being true

just like Western science has the advantage of being true okay so Western physics so when people talk about like oh we're going to have indigenous math no 2 plus two has to equal four right okay we could be wrong but I doubt it that's our best theory right now that 2 plus 2 equals 4 so I Look to Western for science technology advancement by the way the East is now starting to make strides there as well um but when it comes to the oldest questions the best answers are the oldest ones like the these some

of a lot of what we've been discussing has been around us questions since the dawn of mankind so and Indian civilization is one of the oldest civilizations it's probably the oldest large civilization that explored these topics where we have written materials and records and practitioners and so on um and there's probably more Buddhas and alive on the Indian subcontinent than there are anywhere else in the world so if you're attracted to the truth of the old questions and you want to find the old answers you're going to head there this is natural I think there

are some problems with traveling in India uh namely hygiene and it's a little chaotic but if one is ever seeking for the right answers in life especially when it comes to these questions India opens up certain portals in your head it can be influential that said if if you can't figure something like that out exactly where you are exactly when you are there then it's not true the truth is not something that's going to live in a certain region at a certain place at a certain time and has to be told to you by a

certain person a certain way that's not a truth that's just another experience uh so anything that because the whole point of spirituality is to be freed of the monkey mind and to be at peace in the moment and so it can't be reliant on anything outside it can't be it can't it can't be in the future it can't be in a different place uh you know one of my problems that I have with all religions is this idea that like oh this is the word of God and it was p down through this book well

okay well what if I didn't speak that language what if I was born at the wrong time no any fundamental truth that spiritual has to be accessible to every human at every time in every place regardless of language culture religion age you know gender whatever or even physical being like you could be you could have mental retardation you could be crippled you could be dying you should still be able to see and find and experience that same truth on your own otherwise if it's if it's brought to you from the outside if it's temporal it

can be taken away from you and so I think the best path towards truth is understanding because when you deeply understand something um you're not going to unand it it's the nature of truth that once you see it once you learn it you don't unlearn it because it's true that's truth is indestructible knowledge in your mind uh it can only be replaced by a better truth it can only be replaced by oh okay that was that truth wasn't complete here's another piece of the truth that I was missing um but in that sense truth cannot

be destroyed it can only be overruled by other truths so if you find uh some understanding then that can be with you forever has marriage brought further understanding when it comes to life I I don't marriage is fine household is great I don't like to discuss personal life okay I just don't think it as relevant to other people's lives I I will say like uh you know I was talking about this earlier today but my own favorite tweet uh to myself is the you know a Fit Body a calm mind and a house full of

love these things cannot be bought they must be earned uh and house full of love is is that part and you can create a house full of love anytime you want by giving love uh that said you know marriage is complicated it's a negotiation uh between people you have to learn how to live together you have kids it's not easy uh but I'm not the person to give marital advice if only you will agree with it's it's too personal and every marriage is so unique and even the concept of marriage is sort of going away

in a lot of Western societies uh uh I do encourage children I think children are amazing everyone should have kids yeah absolutely I don't understand this anti-natalist thing we here you're here I'm here because an unbroken chain of our ancestors from tadpoles to monkeys to now uh you know had children are you going to be the first ones to miss that Branch I mean if you believe in some afterlife all your ancestors looking down you're saying oh my God I can't believe it we struggle so hard you know we fought Tigers we we we cross

mountains we we froze during the ice ages and this idiot just decided not to have children cuz he couldn't be bothered for bad guy to stop this CH yeah he's screwed up right but I will tell you like if if you are older in life and you don't have the Next Generation to look forward to then you better find God fast because I don't think like your own mind and your own life will be kind to you as you get older you know what I've learned about marriage M from the outside I'm not married yet

but this is conjectural okay uh I think one's wife is always right and and that's the rule one should follow yeah see I reject that completely uh yeah people say like happy wife happy life that's all propaganda that's all feminine propaganda you're being brainwashed no both people have to be equally happy uh the secret to a happy relationship is two happy people and uh you can't be happier than your spouse so it's not happy wife happy life it's unhappy wife unhappy life you know so so you both have to be happy both of you have

to work hard to make each other happy um you have to be a good fit and a good match but the point of getting married is to have children so so you know have the kids and then you know worst case you have kids which is still an amazing outcome and best case you're happily married and you have kids but I would I don't buy the you know keep the wife happy propaganda that's that's that's that's letting her Sher her duties it's been kind it's kind of you now that that approach would work if I

asked your fiance or girlfriend and she said Oh My Philosophy is like uh you know keep the husband happy at all cost if she said that then I would be like okay that's a good match they're both trying to keep each other happy but if it's all one-sided no that doesn't work yeah I mean personally I'm very sanatani yeah and sanatan D says the key to a happy relationship is um tolerance and selfless service so those are the two kind of flag Poes I've got uh after finding the right that's good if everybody follows it

uh you know if both people are selfless and tolerant with each other then it'll work out well but you're not going to be in any voluntary relationship where you're selfless and tolerant the other person's intolerant and selfish it won't last so you can only make those kind so those are good guidelines for society they're not necessarily good guidelines for the individual uh as an individual mate selection is a real thing you have to pick a person who you're incredibly compatible with uh you know the traditional model is that the you know the man earns and

creates and the woman uh kind of takes care of the household the man takes care of things outside she takes care of things inside that's a traditional model I know in the west it's falling out of favor but it works and in that model the man has to be capable and do his duty and the woman has to be kind and love loving and you know take care of the household and so that is a valid model of how the world works and you can kind of I don't know sonan or whatever you can have

some prescriptions about how to run that but the reality is life is very complicated every every individual is completely unique the combinatorics of human DNA are staggering you'll never meet two people who are even vaguely alike if you leave a friend you break up with a girlfriend you lose a person in your life a loved one you're never going to find a substitute you're never going to find anybody who's like the same or even close even close right I've never met two human beings who are even vaguely similar um except perhaps identical twins but that's

theoretical I don't know any up close that well so if every person is unique just imagine how unique every relationship is so having other people navigate your relationship with hard and fast rules doesn't work you can look to it for inspiration you can look to it for principles but each relationship has to work on its own merits and I am I am a lazy person and I hate conflict so my rule is if a relationship has conflict I just leave it I don't fight with people if somebody wants to fight with me we get one

fight and then it's over because there's a lot of people out there there's a lot of people out there and life is long so you have to navigate your way towards the people who love you for who you are and you love them the way they are nobody needs anybody to change and if they change it's okay because you still kind of value the core and you change together um the same way like you find you have to navigate your way to the career the job the profession the obsession where you like the thing for

what it is the the moment is complete in of itself as you perform that act and if you get some reward out of it that's fantastic but that's not the core reason you do it um and the same way U I think you can apply that to every facet of your life even if you're eating you want to find the healthy food that you actually enjoy eating there's many healthy foods out there just find the ones that you enjoy eating and just focus down on those uh for exercise find the sport or the hobby where

you it doesn't feel like work to you like play tennis or you know if you like running then go run if you like lifting then go lift if you like playing tennis then go play tennis so I think uh the the beauty of Modern Life is it gives us so many options uh and that's not a bad thing options are good uh it's just you have to navigate your way through the options and find out what works for you and then commit to that and so on relationships I don't view uh and I know this

is uh antithetical to the classical Indian way of arranged marriage which had its merits that was basically saying hey let's find someone who's culturally similar socioeconomically similar uh you know worthy of you and the purpose of marriage is to build a household and have children so we'll take care of the basics didn't always work but you know pretty good hit rate compared to Modern where it's just like I'm going to marry my high school sweetheart or I'll roll the dice or oh I got this girl pregnant accidentally and then off we go so it can

work better than some models but in a choice-based model which is where Western Society is and I think increasingly Eastern Society is there um you have to be picky uh so if you're having to sacrifice for your SP spouse and they're not sacrificing in return just go somewhere else if you're in constant conflict then both of you need to go find someone who's you're not each of you is not going to be in constant conflict with and I think that's a much better recipe that that ability to search and to look uh and to cut

your losses quickly uh because there's High sunk cost in these relationships the the biggest problem in relationships is dishonesty where we're trying to make the other person happy we're trying to appear our best and so for the first year of the relationship you just fake it you just you're just a different person and sometimes that's just your emotions are driving you and you're in love so you're being on your best behavior without even thinking about it and sometimes it's a little more deliberate but the reality is the longer you fake it the worse it's going

to be because then you get trapped and now it's sunk cost and you don't want to walk away and breaking that relationship is hard and your friends and family expect you together and you can't imagine life separately uh and now you're stuck uh so it's just better to be brutally honest upfront about who you are and your needs and your worst sides and and all of that and don't try to throw off any Impressions because if eventually this person will see you at your worst and eventually you will see them at their worst um so

you might as well just start there you know from the outside looking in I personally have this impression of Naval rikan the brand and the human and I feel like nothing hurts that guy does anything hurt you at all uh you know I'm a very paranoid person uh so I do stress out about uh you know um I I grew up with very little so I'm always stressed stressing over like like politicians and money you know like the West has now come become very fashionable to hate money to hate wealth to hate entrepreneurs to try

to tear people down uh We've turned into cancel culture right so yeah so you know those kinds of things occasionally stress me out um but I would say that um there's there's not anything I want right need is the need is the ultimate monkey other than knowledge right I have not even that like what is knowledge going to do for me I'm going to die it's all going to go to zero anyway so it's fun I enjoy learning things I love the aha moment when I connect something together and I would tweak it a little

bit I would say it's understanding not knowledge knowledge is because knowledge gets conflated with memorization and you know memorizing facts and I got chat GPT for that and the internet um so I enjoy understanding I enjoy learning um my my own tweet to myself on this was spend your life in the company of geniuses sages children and books right those are the four things that I enjoy the most and there's a fifth thing a great Indian podcaster I thought you were going to say you're wife or a woman uh she's gonna she's gonna nail you

on this one um I I think uh not there was there was an old thing a story that I was liked about Socrates where they took him into um they took him into the quent of the mall the market and there were all these luxuries and fineries and and things laid out and and Delicacies to eat and he said there are so many things in this world that I do not want and I was like oh that's power that's that's it right there right or when Alexander the Great met diogenes uh who was living in

a barrel uh you know Alexander was like I wish if I came back in their life that I could be like diogenes and diynes said something along the lines so well if I came back I wouldn't want to be Alexander right so being freed from need is the ultimate but I'm not I'm not a Buddha I'm not the guy who's going to suddenly renounce everything and not have a need uh and renunciation doesn't work anyway uh but it's more that you know I like games I think we all like games we all play games we

play the social game we play the video games we play the money games we play the fitness game we play The Fame game we play the love game we play the happiness game we all play games and I've played a lot of games my whole life of every kind and I've won a lot of games and the reason to win the game is so you can be done with it so you can see through it if you just keep playing the same game over and over and over grinding you know trying to go higher and

higher and higher maybe that works for somebody it doesn't work for me so I like to either see through games or I like to be done with them so I used to be an avid video gamer until very recently actually this a couple of years back maybe like five years ago I probably spent more time playing video games than I spent working did it do anything for your mind it was fun uh yeah probably I mean it was I was playing harder than harder games and more and more intellectual games and strategy games and War

games and thinking games but they're just games they're meaningless games right what was your favorite there were so many I mean mostly war games I was a I was a deep war game magic the Gathering if you remember that game you know so anyway theic game doesn't matter the point is I would just play lots and lots of games and at some deep deep level I knew they were worthless because you know you're playing this game and then you get some stupid reward at the end and then they change the rules of that game and

then the game changes in like your your reset or like you you forgot your login or you lost it cuz you upgraded your computer or your whatever or this they rolled out version five against a version four you're starting all over right so you know it's worthless you're just running in a circle right and all games are worthless because you die in the end but at least some are longer live than others right there are games that like for example if I'm playing the wealth creation game I can make money which has an actual effect

on my remaining life as opposed to just playing a video game which has none of that benefit I'm not taking away from games games are useful uh they're they're training for the intellectual athlete just like sports might be training for War for the physical athlete um that said I was still playing a lot of games I knew they were kind of worthless I was doing it to blow off steam or just because I don't even need a reason I was it was entertaining um but then one day I read a blog post and uh you

know truth is that when you see it you can't unsee it and this guy in just the right turn of phrase he called games a shadow career he said games are a shadow career and I was like oh that's so good that is so good it's like a career that you're building that's fake you know it's a shadow it's just going to disappear I was like and and since that moment I haven't been able to see games as anything other than a waste of time so I still do play games occasionally so once in a

blue moon mostly with my kid I'll pick up a game I'll play for a little bit but now I'm thoroughly in completely aware that it is a quote unquote waste of a time and if I'm okay wasting the time it's fine but these days I'm not really okay wasting time you still play war games with your kid uh I'm going to pick one or two up uh mostly these days though they're on their iPads playing their own games it's fine but what what game would you have your kid play and I asked this from the

perspective of I feel when I was growing up as a teenager few games that really affected my mindset in life FIFA uh like the football game because it just teaches you something about team play uh Age of Empires obviously because you learn strategy Sim City because you learn Administration and Sims because you learn about self I mean look I I can argue for many of them I can argue for The Sims and the civilization type games I can argue for board games war games uh strategy games um the reality is even the few games I

play these days they're just like runners or Jumpers or Fighters you know they don't have any real meaning to them it's fine there's I think one of the one of my tweets or analogies that went more viral than others was like I really believe that you should live your life like an athlete or like a lion right which means that most of your time you're resting you're just fussing around uh you're lazing around you're just doing whatever you find entertaining and then once in a while you get obsessed with something and something is important and

you just pour everything into it so I would rather be recharged and ready for my next intellectual or physical Obsession than putting myself on the grinder of I have to wake up at this time then eat my blueberries and then do my push-ups and and just like live a regimented mechanical life uh I want to live a very free life I don't want a calendar I don't want have to be in a specific place at a specific time I don't want have to answer to people um I just want to be free and I think

that's how you do your best work and especially in an age where we have so much leverage in the system either through code or Media or through other people or through Capital the quality of your decision- making dominates everything um Warren Buffett is one of the richest men in the world just because he makes a right decision once a year and so having a clear mind is way more important than anything else which and this is all exuse for laziness which just lets me relax and relax and relax until I need to make that decision

but it's like even if I look at my you know um uh you know having made money in life has happened through a bunch of different sources but the number one was like way bigger than the number two through end put together two number two was bigger than three through nend put together three was bigger than four through nend put together and that's kind of how your entire life Works what was number one if you don't mind me I'm not going to get into it but it's uh but it it's it the compound interest applies

in all intellectual and often even in relationship domains uh so for example your number one relationship in your life eventually your kids currently your wife maybe one of your parents is going to be more valuable to you than kind of all the rest put together right there so maybe not so much in relationships but definitely in definitely in uh learning you know your best ideas is going to be worth more than all the rest my best Tweets the few best Tweets you know you're only judging your best work not your worst so in that sense

being high output is really good current generation May judge you on your average but the future what'll happen is let's say you record I don't know how many podcasts have you recorded 800 800 great so you know by the time you're done you'll probably have 2,000 or something before you're finally like okay I'm bored of this game right so let's say you have 2,000 podcasts in your life what's going to happen is 20 of them are going to be amazing okay and those will stand the test of time and they'll slowly trickle down trickle down

trickle down 100 years from now people will be watching 20 of them and then 200 years from now 300 years from now they'll be watching one of them right so it's you so in all of these intellectual domains you are only judged by your best work in posterity which is not to say you can just shortcut to it but most effort in life in that sense is wasted but it's both training wheels for the winning one plus you just never know when or where the right thing is going to emerge so you kind of just

have to keep moving um but I I the thing I'm not a fan of is wasting time wasting time you know tedious meetings with tedious people uh you know traveling to places for for business where there's like you don't actually enjoy it um anything ceremonial or ritual meetings you know complete with of time most meetings uh just save your time save your energy um just be happy enjoy yourself and be and be ready for the opportunity because there there a time when opportunity comes and if you yourself are rested and ready and you find yourself

interested in it then you have the space in your life and in your mind that you can be sucked into it um and again without any uh desire for a specific outcome because when you desire for a specific outcome you're moving away from truth seeking because now you're looking for something and if that thing turns out not to be true you're going to try and force it and we can't help it we're Desiring creatures you wouldn't even be here on this Earth if you weren't a Desiring creature right you just lie there in the dirt

and let worms eat you so you are a Desiring creature but you just have to be careful with your desires because they will take you away from your truth because uh true true reasoning is UN motivated it's or it's motivated purely by curiosity curiosity just means you want to know the truth that's all it is so in that sense curiosity is the pure Mo motivation every other motivation is motivated reasoning and leads you to is more likely to lead you to an incorrect answer and then the worst thing you can do is get through motivated

reasoning get to the falsehood and then you bake that into your identity you identify it with yourself you say well because I'm a Hindu or I'm a Christian or I believe this or because I'm a Republican or Democrat I believe this and then you get locked into that now that is a part of your understanding it's a shaky foundation and then you start attaching other things to that shaky Foundation politics is a good example of this well you know because I you know believe in uh women's right for abortion now I also have to believe

that you know trans women or men or men or women and I have to believe that like you know there's no heritability in certain things but there is in other things I have to believe that capitalism is evil you start plugging all these things together that don't actually belong together they're voting coalitions they're coalitions of Voters that have assemble single issue voters but now all of a sudden you have to adopt all of these beliefs or in Christian you know if I'm Christian then I have to believe this and this and this otherwise I'm not

a true Christian I have to believe this and this Hindu sect otherwise not a true Hindu all that is nonsense one of the best lines I heard on this was Buddha wasn't a Buddhist you know so all the people that you admire all the people that you look up to they're they're not they don't strongly self-identify with any movement you know lean you created Singapore where we're sitting today he didn't consider himself Singaporean right he created that thing so I think uh all of us are meant to not okay not nobody's meant to do anything

but all of us function at our best when we don't identify with anything outside of ourselves the one thing that this conversation is teaching me is that uh the universe is kind of wired to us up a little bit well it would have to be to be interesting right if you could just if it was predictable it' be boring there be no point in being here is this the most most unserious podcast that you've ever done I don't know probably maybe I don't know are you comfortable being unserious sure yeah I'm comfortable being me I

mean I was so intimidated by the thought of speaking to you but once I got talking to you uh I've just realized that you're like any of us you've just done the right things consistently and you've done the things that you felt were easy but made a habit out of a few other difficult things I think if there's one thing that my friends would say is that like I try to figure everything out for myself I don't listen to anybody else not even your wife nobody your kid nobody really yeah no gurus no mentors no

teachers no holy this or that I mean I I definitely have learned from people for sure I've almost everything I know I've learned from other people but I verified it for myself is your work your Guru my work work I don't work you you know how you have that saying about you choose something that feels like play to you but work for others oh yeah yeah yeah and I think once you advance in that journey of play it turns into art after a point and that's how you look at all the products that you invest

in that they art for you do they teach you things for life okay whether it's in politics science business spirituality whatever history remembers the artists the artists are the people who are creative and March to their own beat and do their own thing um great software is Art great business is Art starting even like starting a new country you know some level is Art you're creating x n Hilo you're creating something out of nothing um and uh that to me is like the most rewarding thing to be doing at any given time but art can't

be forced uh it can't in a sense art is done for its own sake it's not done for any external purpose if you're doing it for money it's less you're you're hurting it's uh it's cap ility to be Arts not to say it can't still be great art but you're just you're now beholden to other interests it's like motivated reasoning it's like true scientists try to figure things out to fulfill their desire to figure things out right and the moment they figure it out it's complete they don't need a Nobel Prize or a Fields medal

afterwards and in fact some of the better ones have rejected that or like uh famously Bob Dylan I think rejected the pz or Prize or whatever it was like he got some massive prize didn't even show up didn't even bother cuz he knows his music is good he created for himself so I I do think that is the highest calling creating something for yourself because you want to exist now nobody's perfect we're not all going to get there um and there's always going to be external motivations but the less the more internally motivated you can

be the more the thing itself is the reward um the better the work you will do um and uh the more F fulfilling it it is so that's kind of what I aim for okay but maybe that's just my excuse for being useless these days okay um you know again everyone views the world with the lens that their own mind has placed due to their own stories MH so the lens I view the world with is honestly pretty spiritual and I know you don't like the word but again it's an outcome of growing up in

India in my eyes um there's a concept of the flow state state of flow where your best work happens and I've always wondered to myself about your Flow State nal's Flow State and for me at least based on what's visible to the public eye it happens when you're TW eting when you're in one of your speet storms and it happens when someone's asking you the right questions and unlocking things am I right in like yeah I mean in a flow State your mind isn't uh obsessing with itself it's you're not thinking about yourself you're focused

on the thing you're focused on the activity uh it's a meditative State it's it's a state where like for example if you're drawing or painting then you are the brush you are the paint you're only thinking about that and there is no internal chatter you're not saying oh man you know can't wait for dinner or I can't believe my wife said this to me that that's all gone and that's and you're also operating at the edge of your capability so it's interesting enough that you you are being stressed you're being strained you know you're operating

at the edge but it's not so far forward that you are being confused or you're like obviously screwing up um so flow state is a wonderful thing it's it's a very meditative State um but probably the the shortest way to not be in a flow state is to try to be in a flow state right because it's again it's that effort right so it comes much more from you find things that you like to do and then when you and because you like to do something you're interested in it you're going to get good at

it you're going to be doing it and as you're doing it you're climbing that ladder of uh of Mastery and any you can climb that ladder in literally anything um as you get more and more into it um you're going to be more and more in flow uh I my problem is I switch around a lot so I fall in love with something I obsess over it I learn everything I possibly can about it over a couple of months kind of period and then once I figure the basics out 8020 I start getting bored and

then when I start getting bored I just sort of background it I becomes a piece of my knowledge and understanding and then I just move on to the next thing or I just spend time being bored until the next thing comes along do you think that the Flow State sometimes allows you to channelize knowledge that's present externally I don't know what I'm going to say until I say it so it's kind of funny that one of the ways that I learn what I think is by saying it and the same way one of the ways

that I learn what I know is by tweeting it so very often I'll just be talking with a friend I'll be hanging out I'll be having dinner or I'll be sitting at home by myself late at night and I'll just have a thought and I'll come into my mind almost fully baked and I'm like oh I should tweet that and then I'll tweet it and then sometimes I have a second thought I better changed this and usually the first version is always the best uh I don't know where it comes from it's kind of interesting

it comes from Beyond whatever that means right maybe it comes from the depths of my mind maybe comes from somewhere else but they come to me fully formed which is kind of the entertaining thing I mean I'm of the belief that it comes from somewhere else creativity is a mysterious Force right yeah I don't know I mean that's again I keep bringing this up man but when I'm talking to you I feel like I'm talking to Rishi you know Rishi is so uh kind of embarrassing sorry but that's that's what it feels like so you

know on a very Primal level the podcast for me is based on my childhood dream of wanting to explore the Himalayas and have conversations with sages and I'm just like making money off of it right now spend your life in the company of geniuses sages children and books right yeah but again this is one of those things that figured through the show whenever I speak to monks they keep talking about the Flow State how it is meditative it is a form of working your mind towards Evolution but one needs to be humble with in the

Flow State and understand that it's not their own thoughts and creativity but it's being placed in their head externally by the yeah in a real Flow State you're not thinking about yourself so it's not coming from this look when when we self is a very loaded word right it's another one of the self it's another one of these words that can mean a lot of different things but there's kind of the separate self the identity the story The Character the name the uh kind of the the emotional predilections toward doing certain certain things and not

doing others the reactions the memories that's the false self okay we know that from Hinduism and Buddhism and Hindu mythology and they've written it down much better than I could ever say um that's the false self but yet that's the self that we function under 95% of the time and when we go into a flow state that self quiets down for a bit and then All That Remains is true self which is just I don't have a name for it maybe you have name for it it's just the thing that is right it's existence itself

it's Consciousness it's awareness to me they're identical right as an aside one of the I think I think there's a lot of great questions out there that people just don't ask because they're so cliched right so uh one of the questions I love is like if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one around to hear it doesn't make a sound so cliche I think about that one all the time you know because it really asks a question like you know is existence and are existence and Consciousness the same thing like in what

sense can something be said to exist if nothing is ever conscious of it or its or its effects um another one that I like to think about is the philosophical zombie problem which is uh you know why do we even need Consciousness why couldn't you just be walking around reacting like an automaton to everything and I could see the exact same reactions the exact same emotions and whatever but you just don't need to be conscious why why why does that why aren't we all just uh philosop why aren't we all just zombies um and actually

it's funny because the Buddhist answer to that is if you think it through it's kind of it's not why Consciousness the answer is why zombie like does the zombie actually exist or is that just a figment of the you know awareness's imagination um another one that I like is uh you know some of the wisdom that's really old is so embedded in culture we don't think about it uh row row row your boat you know that one row row row your boat gently down the stream yeah it's so smart nobody thinks about it nobody talks

it's so smart that's that's like one of the greatest works of art ever created row row row your boat in other words your work right the analogy is you're sitting in a boat you're kind of by yourself yeah there might be other boats but you're kind of by yourself you're rowing you got to row you got to do some work gently down the stream gently yeah you don't struggle too much you know you kind of have to figure out what you can navigate without getting all stressed out down the stream it's a good analogy for

Life the river you know it's going off you know it's going to die at the end um merrily merrily merily merily yeah that's that's the right attitude life is but a dream that's the cold hard truth life is but a dream it appears it disappears it ends Infinity on both sides right there's so much wisdom in that little poem and stuck around forever but instead we have to go looking at complicated books to figure this out as I've learned through the show they say that the curse of human life is that once you die you

realize that human life was the dream yeah I mean nobody knows what happens when you die right that's kind of the mystery that makes it all fun um but you know to your point about being attracted to like Indian uh sort of ideals and memories I I have found as I grow older I gravitate more and more towards those things like um do you mind that I'm bringing it up so much in this conv no no it's fine it's fine anything is fine it's just a part of my identity yeah it's fine I mean I'm

Indian too by origin and probably will end up back there at some point when I'm old enough you know I think about it I I like India I love India these are these are these are my brothers and sisters right these are my people I am I am one of them so there's a couple of places I would love to take you to in India I told you about one of them in the car uh which is the mountains like Himalayas there too many Secrets like that's where you actually find the wisdom of the sages

and you feel it in the air the other place is Banaras Varanasi yeah which is in according to sanatan it's the oldest city in the world and you do feel that it is chaotic but there's another part of it that's extremely quiet there's a part of Banaras called the manikarnika G mhm where they perpetually burn bodies for the sake of cremation MH mhm they say that when you stand at the manikara and you view the bodies burning whatever is inside you FRS up and comes on to the outside and that's where something inside you shifts

so for me I just became very curious and I became more serious about this journey of podcasting I realized that this is my true iy guy um Japanese concept for the sake of curiosity because you come uh face to face with death you see human body's burning you know if if you actually view a human body burning at some point the skull explodes so when you see that happening in front of you it shifts something inside and I Feel Again India is definitely not for everyone but it is for Seekers I mean if you could

keep your death in front of you at all times you would live a magical life then you would value the exact moment at it's you know as being the complete and wholesome and only real sacred thing that exist do you keep it death in front of you I try to it's not it doesn't always work but I do it's probably it's probably the most liberating thing that I do it's not I don't do it as an exercise I just but it is on my mind a lot what's an ideal death for you it doesn't matter

hopefully not slowly or painfully but you know it's it's when it when it's gone it's gone I guess the ideal would be it would be good to be to have uh self-realized before for that you know ultimate truth be good I don't know if there's such a thing that's that's Enlightenment is not something you necessarily from what I can tell it's not something you necessarily find or create it's more just unlearning it's a shedding it's what remains when everything else is gone so it's it is a mini death of its own sort it is a

death of the separate self in the mind um and I'm not looking for that kind of death but I would say I'm looking for truth and if that's true then I'll take the truth I'll take the truth TR I'll take an unhappy truth over a lie any day and I don't think it's an unhappy truth anyway but it doesn't matter I'm I'm open to whatever the truth is if the truth is oh I'm just a brain and a vat this is a simulation and someone's pting and poking at me and they're going to torture me

for eternity fine show me the truth I'd rather know the truth you know in The Joe Rogan episode you spoke about how uh you used to meditate yeah and you would just view your own thoughts You' sit in a place and just view your own thoughts and through that process sometimes you read Stillness but you also had some psychedelic experiences do you ever think about those I kind of got bored of it um and and I and I just I don't think experiences are are the thing did the distractions yes any experience that comes will

also go uh the the thing that matters is what your state of mind is you know at 2:30 p.m. in the afternoon when you're sitting by yourself how do you feel are you are you peaceful are you happy are you good you know 2:37 p.m. you're walking down the street are you okay how do you feel are you good that's what matters Ms right it's the exact moment in time what is your internal State what is your external State um you know what are the thoughts that are going through your head if any that's what

matters so I don't want Bliss for an hour a day uh that's just another experience that comes and goes I want I want something that's indestructible did you ever smoke weed uh you know I live in California when you were younger no no know luckily that's the kind of thing that if I discovered in my youth I don't think I would have had a very productive youth because you get too into it yeah it's it's it's it's too easy to turn off your brain I think things like weed uh you know the the West is

going through a very hedonistic phase where it's all about being single and partying and doing drugs and um those are hard things to resist they can really destroy your sense of self-being uh I've definitely seen people who have done way too many even like say for example common belief now is that like mushrooms are harmless right they're not I mean you do enough of that stuff it'll break your brain you'll end up believing too many things that aren't real um you know same thing with weed it'll rob you of ambition because it's it's a very

feminizing drug it's a plant estrogen so you're just going to sit there all day and smoke weed and you're not going to go do anything with your life so yes there are definitely things that I have tried but luckily I would say I'm I I'm not getting sucked into any of them fair I mean even water in excess is bad sure alth that one we're pretty well evolved for right it's just like for example if you just from an evolutionary past if You' had access to like easy weed all the time you would have gotten

eaten by something right you wouldn't have made it very far um it's just in modern society yeah we can do that modern society is really weird where we we've we've changed our physical environment much faster than we're adapted for so we do need all kinds of coping mechanisms right for example we're all overfed we're UND ex exercised uh we're overstimulated uh our minds are worrying about far away things right the media the purpose of the media as I've joked before is to make every problem your problem right you go on you go on social media

and it's just all dueling meme viruses each one trying to occupy a slot in your brain to Make You Care well you know thousand years ago someone could have gotten shot or blown up in some Far Away country you would have never heard about it you had no stake in it you had no way of knowing about it now it's just your brain is not man is not designed to handle all the world's emergencies in real time as they break it's breaking your brain at some deep level you're not even meant to see violence or

pornography like those are very weird and rare and unique new things uh and so the modern struggle is to navigate through the fruits of abundance uh that are wrecking you right it's actually the the the challenge of modernity is avoiding the fruits of modernity right for you have to become almost a yogi in self-defense uh to protect yourself it's called ver in in our culture and it means being in the middle of a party yeah and seeing everyone party around you and being happy for them but not taking part in the party yourself other than

just keeping your mind there yeah this is why I'm finding it harder and harder to go to parties because it's hard not to get involved and to indulge but it's so meaningless it's just another game right uh and they're fun and occasionally I do go to parties and I do like a good party and you have a higher odds of dragging me out to good party than to like some tedious meeting um but all that said like Even parties have kind of lost their luster what's Nal R can't like when he's drunk or high uh

same but more talkative more talkative more talkative yeah because you're inherently a bit of an introvert yes yeah got yeah on a podcast I'm not but uh left to my own devices I'm very much an inter I would much rather read or be on the Internet or just be walking around thinking or you know listening to YouTube or a podcast or something than uh hanging out with people do you miss your childhood no but I don't really think about it I don't think about the past much consciously yeah they when you're asking me the question

I'm being forced to think about it for the first time in a long time my bad no no there's nothing wrong with it I'm just saying I don't think about it so I don't I don't have a I don't have a predigested answer for you that's great yeah no but I would say no I don't miss my childhood I don't it's it's like a dream is it real did it actually happen wow there's a quote that goes like the past is fiction it is fiction the P the past is uh it it is a narrative

you don't remember most of it the little bit that you do remember is very selective memory stitched into a narrative uh there's no point in really remembering it uh presumably there are lessons to learn but you probably already digested those and learned them you don't even have to think about those uh so what's the point um do you think about about the future at all uh I think about the future for practical things career stuff well like yeah if I have to make money or an investment or if I have to like figure out what

to do with the this child and this problem and solve that or you know where do I want to have dinner so yeah and that sense we are future planners but uh I don't I don't think too far ahead I don't I don't obsess over it but I'm more of a future creature than a past creature for sure uh in an ideal world I wouldn't think that much about the future either but I'm not there I think we're forced to in order you have to I mean you're you're a functioning creature that has to navigate

the world but I I I I want to think about the future as regards to utilitarian things you know food money uh you know those kinds of things problem solving I don't want to think about the future in sense of what does it hold for me like am I going to be happy am I going to be uh in a good relationship you know am I going to die like the death thing is interesting to think about you kind of can't look away it's like the most important thing that's going to happen to you right

so you have to think about it but uh I I don't want to think about I don't want to self- obsess in the future the reason I don't self- obsess anymore or never even got that into it is because I just found it both a waste of time uh as well as it was just destroying my happiness happiness is a big word so more peace intruding on my peace gotcha I think we're almost at the end of the episode episode what advice do you have for me I don't have advice for you I mean you

you must have gotten to know something about me at this point or maybe I'll ask you the career advice aspect because I could reframe this question as how do you view the world of content creators going into the future I would okay I'll give you some advice I like I like being provocative so uh I would say be selfish be more selfish uh make sure you really enjoy your work make sure you really are only working with the people that you really like doing like working with uh make sure you are only have the guests

on that you're proud to have on that you genuinely want to have conversations with um because I I think the the value you've already built something of incredible value and it's going to continue compounding so the value now is about the longevity how long can you keep it going whether you go to episode a th000 or 2,000 or 5,000 matters more than uh you know you don't want to be in grinder mode if you're just grinding you're going to burn out and the day you or not this thing is over so I would say just

make sure you enjoy yourself and uh so that's part of it uh so be selfish and make sure you enjoy yourself and then the second part of being selfish is talk to people where you genuinely want to talk to them don't don't just record a podcast or record a podcast because you know you have to make certain amount of money or you got to check a box because you will be judged at the end of the day by your best work not by any by your average all my content that is out there that people

like I didn't do it for them I didn't do it for anything I didn't do it for anyone I just did it for me and it was deeply selfish it was just notes to self and there's nothing wrong with that because we're all the same inside so if you if you're creating art then you do it for its own sake you do it because you enjoy it and then other people will see the same thing that you saw in it um and they'll get value out of it so I say just be selfish and you

can sustain it okay now I will uh you know take the layers off I'll take the filters off and tell you that this was one of the biggest days of my podcasting career man you're very nice um you have helped me so much from a professional perspective being on the other side of the world and just speaking on other podcasts and there's so many people like me who just sit in different parts of this globe and consume pieces of Your Mind through Twitter through the stuff you say on podcast and I know you're very nonchalant

about it like you're just enjoying it but you're adding so much value to our lives and so many of us have daddy issues and mommy issues and I think Nal ravikant has become kind of a big brother figure to people all over the globe and to just be able to share screen space with you is one of the biggest honors of my life yeah at the same time the worst thing I could do for myself is is get into the idea of having a fan base because uh Fame is a beast it'll lead you alive

and I don't want to do anything for other people I don't care about if they respect me or not disrespect all day long who cares sh I mean I hear you uh and you know just observing you go about how you handle F we were together at an event right now it it's taught me a lot uh just sharing I don't think I handle it well you know I get approached by a lot of people they want to take a photo it always kind of weirds me out a little bit uh no it's just it'd

be better not to be famous to be honest if I had to do it over again it might be better to be anonymous thank God you're not Anonymous but Nal genuinely from the bottom of my heart I bow down to you no don't bows please that's embarrassing PE relationships only I I hear you but no bows no gurus anybody calls me you want to not be my friend call me a guru not going to be friends I I don't think you're a guru but you are a bit of a b you know what bayya means

brother yeah big brother yeah so that's what I look at you as and that's how a lot of brown people look at you as we're all brothers that works there's some people who just emit that Sensei energy and it's not their will again it's the universe working through you that's how I look at you so thank you for everything you've given all of us you're guiding a lot of young people and you're helping everyone with the mental and spiritual health without knowing it thank you you're very kind as are you 800 episodes and you're obviously

seeking bigger and bigger truths so you're on a good path thank you thank Youk you uh I hope we get to speak again in life and I hope you had a very nice time to me thank you I did thanks for having me that was the episode uh was not easy to make this particular episode happen I had to to fly to Singapore which is a 5-hour flight away from Mumbai of course Nal flew from halfway across the world uh our common friend Balaji told me uh that there is this opportunity and nal's agreed to

do this particular episode so this was the first ever episode we shot on foreign soil in my eyes it's the first International episode on TRS even though we've shot one with Arnold schweger in Korea we've shot an episode with Ronnie Coleman in India we've shot episode with Braun strowman in India countless foreign cricketers but I truly feel like my International phase of this podcasting Journey Begins with this very important and very iconic episode of the ranir show couldn't sleep on the night of this episode because this was a very important life moment for me it's

something I've visualized for a very long time before we executed upon this podcast uh dream come true for anyone who's been listening to podcasts for the last decade we all know what a big deal naal ravikant is I'm just glad I got to do this very easygoing conversation with him and I hope that he returns on the renv show at some point in the future I will be attaching all his social handles down below so for those of you who are being introduced to him for the first time please go follow Nel ravikant on every

social media platform I also urge you to pick up Snippets from this conversation and turn them into reels and shots for social media thank you for listening in DRS and the whole team we'll be back very very soon [Music]