ThePrimeagen: Programming, AI, ADHD, Productivity, Addiction, and God | Lex Fridman Podcast #461

The following is a conversation with Michael Pollson, better known online as the primagen. He is a programmer who has entertained and inspired millions of people to have fun building stuff with software. Whether you're a newbie or a seasoned developer who has been battling it out in the software engineering trenches for decades. In short, the primagen is a legendary programmer and a great human being with an inspiring roller coaster of a life story. This is the Lex Freedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's the primogen.

What do you love most about programming? Uh what brings you joy when you program? I can tell you the first time that I ever felt love in programming or felt that joy or that excitement which was in college. It was the second class in data structures and the teacher that was teaching Ray Babcock, he was talking about linked lists. Now you you have to learn Java at Montana State University when I went and so he's off there kind of explaining this whole linked list thing and all that. And then he shows code and in the

code it's like abstract class node or whatever it was. I can't remember what it was. And then it had a private member and that private member was of type node. And I've never seen that before. It is a class that is called node with a member that is of itself. And for the first time ever, I was like, "Oh my gosh, like there's no end. There's no way to iterate. This is not like a set of 10 items. This is a set of infinite items." And so like my mind kind of like exploded in that

moment. Like there's actually you like what you can express is huge. I can see what memory looks like. Like I can see this kind of hopping through space. And I just remember being just so blown away cuz up until that point everything was just all right, I have a list of 10 items. I have a list of 20 items, right? It was very rigid and small. And the things I built were really small and trivial. And all of a sudden, I felt like I could build like anything in that one moment. And it was so

amazing. I just remember sitting in class for what I don't even remember how long those classes were or anything, but I just remember being just completely like profoundly impacted by this notion. And so I just sat there and I watched I had the exact same experience in heavens forbid my uh software engineering class when we talked about the decorator pattern where you can keep on constructing these objects in this recursive way. Not that I think that's actually a good idea to do, but just watching that and realizing like there's so many weird and unique ways

you can solve problems and like you can just anything your mind can think of, you can just create that. And I just remember getting just so excited about the possibility that anything is possible. Yeah, let's uh wax philosophical about a link list. It is pretty profound. For people who don't know, a node in a link list doesn't know anything about the world it's in. It only knows about the thing it's linked to, its neighbor. Maybe that's symbolic. It's a metaphor for all of us humans. There's billions of us on this planet and we only know

about our local little network. Yeah. And it's kind of beautiful and you realize like in that little simple data structure, you can construct arbitrarily large systems and they they're like roots that go through memory. And then of course that's where you get all the programming languages that allow you to uh dump junk into memory and have memory leaks and then there therefore create infinite pain as you try to figure out where that uh unfreed memory is. Uh for me, yeah, probably it's so so beautiful the way you put that. Link lists are indeed beautiful. Recursion

also for me when I finally wrap my brain around what it means to write a recursive function. What was the what was the thing? What was the like the one that taught you? Cuz I think we all probably you probably did factorial where you like, you know, just do like a quick factorial of it. It just doesn't hit home. What was the thing that kind of made it hit home? I don't remember the first I remember mine first. How do you not remember your first? It was magic. I've had so many that just You were

a list guy. You're probably pretty used to the recursion. Yeah. All I remember is just surrounded by C of parentheses. I mean, that's that's really probably when I uh in high school, I think it was either Java or C++. Wow. How do I not remember that? It must have been C++. And then college, it was the generic bullshit software engineering classes were uh Java, but then the the renegades, the cool kids were all using lisp. That's that's when you're doing the AI, the quote unquote AI at that time. That's that was lisp. If you want

to write a chess engine, you would use lisp. And so for me, probably the moment I really fell in love with programming was was lisp and writing like a programs and uh chess engines, all kinds of engines that play a game and then I could play against that thing and that thing would beat me. The joy of being destroyed by the thing you've created and oh um game of life too, cellular automa, that's when I I built that, you know, all kinds of programming languages. that's less about programming language and more about the system you

create. And that just filled me with infinite joy. Uh having now similar to the link list situation, creating a system where each individual cell only knows about its neighbors and operates in a very simple rules. But when you take that system as a whole and allow it to evolve over time, it can create infinite complexity. So I I just man those are many pthead moments where I'm just like looking at the beautiful complexity that can be created with cellular automa. That's that filled me with just infinite joy for sure. But yeah the par all I

remember is parenthesis. So my first memories of my first are drowned in a sea of parenthesis. Oh man. Mine is I have well first off mine was in Java. Though my first was a little bit more rigid, kind of a corporate, you know, a corporate experience, but cold, meaningless. Yeah. I was in a lab. Everyone was using CentOS at that or CentOS or however you say. I always call that CentOS, the Freshmaker. And so it's just like I'm in this very cold. That's nice. Thank you. I'm in like this cold, rigid environment uh with my

Microsoft keyboard programming away in Java and I still I have just such this memory of despair because I love programming. This was after the linked list and I cannot figure out recursion. And so I go to you know the university store and I buy a book and it's Dell and Dell learn Java and it has a section recursion. And so I open it up and I start reading it and it just doesn't hit home. And I'm like I'm spiraling into this like kind of I maybe I'm not a programmer. Maybe I'm not worthy enough to

enter into this circle of people who can figure out what what the heck recursion means. And so Dell and Dell is like I still remember this. Their phrase their exact phrase was every young budding developer solves this recursion program and it was the tower of Hanoi. And guess what? I don't know if I can solve the tower of Hanoi to this day. It's it's like a very hard recursive problem. And I just sat there and thought, "Oh my gosh, I'm not going to make it." And I sat there in the lab for 8 hours, 10

hours doing these things. So worried, it's the week of recursion. We have to do a lab assignment. I'm not going to be able to do it. And I just remember being like genuinely worried about that. Uh and then because I always my big problem was is like, okay, do factorial. Why not just use a for loop? Okay, what about Fibonacci sequence? Why not use a for loop? Like I don't understand what's the purpose of recursion. I don't understand it yet. It's so powerful. Why? It looks like a really complicated for loop. And so I just

could not understand it. And then lab came that day and it was I'm going to give you a 2D array you have to read from a file. This is what a starting position looks like. This is what an ending position looks like. This is what a wall looks like. I want you to find me a path through the maze. And so I just sat there like, "Okay, I guess I can just go up and I can create like a visited grid that's so I know not to visit these places anymore." And all a sudden it

just started clicking. I'm like, "Well, wait a second. I don't know the maze, but if I just go up, right, down, and left, and hop back every time I've been to that square, don't visit it." Like, I can just it will just go forever. And I realized in that moment, I'm like, I actually understand rec I've understood recursion this whole time. I just never had a problem in which it actually made sense to use. And that was like my big downfall is that I I was measuring my understanding with the problems that I had available

which were just you know list traversal which is not a good use of recursion. And so I just I just remember that freeing oh man recursion it was a great moment in my life. I mean it does require to be fair a leap of faith like because people will tell you those uh conformist dogmatic Java instructors will tell you that this is you know um that's important to understand uh recursion but it takes a leap of faith that this is something this is a different way of looking at the world and it's a powerful way

of looking at the world. I actually remembered when I think I first I think I remember my first now. All right. Uh I think it was uh dub first search for one of the games maybe a something like that and for that implementing recursion understand that you can search trajectories through the the space of states and do that recursively that was mind-blowing. just imagining like you can just see the possibilities. Yeah. Just like numbers flying. It was uh like the beautiful mind and then um and that's when I also uh discovered conspiracy theories. That was

and I just saw I saw the truth. Uh okay. Yeah. So what were we talking about? Oh, what was the most painful aspect of programming for you? Uh like what what memories do you have of uh deep profound suffering in terms of programming in the early days? Uh, I would say the biggest one that I can really hold on to had to be one of two experiences. The first experience was when I was at a place called Schedulicity. And am I not allowed to say the place? There's I'm not sure if they're even operating still

at this point, but they're in there something funny about the name. I'm sorry. Oh, scheduleity. They actually the name was so bad that when you looked at their like paid for Google ad terms that they would make sure that they're at the top of the list, the spellings were just insane cuz no one knew how to spell the word scheduleity. And so it was just like this the Google optimizing for that is just hilarious. Uh but okay, go back to the thing. And the the thing that kills me the most about programming, what I actually

considered the worst aspect of programming is when you know everything. And so when I was at this job, it's just every single day I'd come in, there were no surprises. There was no questions. I didn't understand the codebase. Sure, that's that's fair. I didn't understand all the things about the codebase, but I knew I was going to go in, I was going to generate some sort of object from the database. I was going to take that object from the database, and I was just going to map it over and just display it on the web

page. There's no creativity. There's no there's nothing to it. It's very like almost factory line kind of work. And that was a very kind of difficult moment for me which is I didn't enjoy programming because like I knew everything about it. I already knew exactly what I was going to do that day. I knew all the hurdles I was going to have to go over. There was no unknown unknowns if you will. It was just known at all times. And it's just that is for me that is the worst part about programming is when you

already know the solution and it's just a matter of how fast you can type and get it out from your head to your hands. So, the absence of uncertainty, the absence of challenge was the pain. Yeah, that's pretty profound. Prime I'm more than just good looks. I want you to know that it's a low bar. What do you identify as? I'm enjoying asking the general question. 38 male. Uh male, husband of beautiful wife. Okay. You stream about all kinds of programming. Uh but what kind of programmer are you? Are you full stack developer, web programming?

Uh, and maybe can you lay out all the different kinds of programming and then place yourself in that in terms of your identity, sexual identity as well? Yeah, I can get it. We can put it all in there. Uh, plus I mean obviously those two are very very tightly coupled. I have seen you like on the border of sexually aroused by certain languages. I think you got real excited about Okamel or O camel. Let's go. Thank you, Dylan Moyward. Okay. Wow. Yeah, I did not expect that. That escalated quickly. Anyway, what do you identify as?

Okay. So, first you let's let's do the previous or the in in between question first, which is the different kind of archetypes. I think that's a really interesting kind of question because if you go on Twitter or you're new, your thoughts are probably that there is just web programming and maybe there's some other stuff. Yeah, like game programming, but you do like game programming in JavaScript and on the web, you know, like there's this very kind of very myopic view of the programming world and I bet if you ask a lot of people these days

like what is the most popular form of programming they'd probably say web if you said what contains the most amount of repos how many percentage of repos on GitHub are web-based they'd probably say 90% or some huge number but the reality is that there's an entire embedded robotics world you know you're familiar with the ML side of things there's networking there's going to be just like performance operating systems compilers there's just huge amounts a variation of all these different type of programming verticals that you can be. And so we often talk about programming in perspective

of web or something that's pretty narrow. And I think that's just a social construct of Twitter more than anything else that it's actually I don't believe it's that representative of of the entire kind of programming world out there. And I think a lot of programming is really really fun. There's some really great stuff. Building a your own language is just a very fun experience to do. every programmer should just do that once just to have a completely different, you know, perspective on how things work in life. But as far as what do I do? Uh

I've always looked at myself as a tools engineer. So at my time at my my jobs, typically I would start off on the UI and then they'd be like, "Okay, well, hey, we need a library for this thing." So then I'd be the one writing like the library. So in 2012, 2013, I was writing a UI library for the web that can behave just like an iPad. So you can pinch and zoom on it, but it's still a web page because we didn't have any of that stuff back then. It was a canvas. Had to

do all the like matricy operations and all that stuff to kind of, you know, it felt like you're on an iPad, but it actually wasn't on an iPad. And this was iPad 2, by the way. So this is a long time ago. And so every single time I got into a job, it's like, okay, hey, we need to do a library. Hey, can you work on a build system? So back then, there was no Grunt, there was no Gulp, there was no any of those things. So I had to hand roll my own JavaScript build

system. And so I always fell into these positions of building tools for developers to be successful. And I've always really enjoyed that region. And so as I went on to say Netflix, uh spent 10 years there, I'd say the majority of my 10 years were building things for developers to use that they could be successful at their job. And so I just I've always really enjoyed that aspect because your share your stakeholders and the people that use your program understand programming and they're going to say like, "Hey, I need this." And typically the thing that

they need they actually want. Whereas with people people want stuff but what they actually need versus what they actually want often are kind of like this weird separation. People you know that's like the old Henry Ford quote. I just want a faster horse and he's like no what you actually want is a car. And so it's like this like you have to play this game of trying to really figure it out. Whereas developers it's like I know you know what I'm doing. I know what you want. Let's figure it out together. That's actually that gives

you a really nice big picture view of programming in general. So, I love the idea of just kind of starting at the interface like you need to pinch and all that kind of stuff and then figure out the entire thing that requires to make that happen including maybe the side quest tooling how to make it more productive and efficient all that kind of stuff. So the entirety the entirety of the thing that's really cool. Okay. So that mean that would be full stack by the general definition of full stack meaning like perhaps yeah versus like

systems engine like starting at the bottom and trying to optimize a certain kind of specific thing without seeing the big picture of like what the the resulting interface would would look like. And a lot of people you know in web programming they never go beyond the front end of how the thing looks. They kind of always assumed there would be somebody some some uh grunt in the shadows in the darkness of the basement that will implement the back end. Some gil foil out there will be doing the back end. Yeah. Like I like to call

myself a generalist. Um just to kind of give some ideas is you know at at one point at Netflix I built the websocket connection. So for TVs how websocket works is code I just wrote. And so I you know built the framing thing and before that I was doing stuff with memory and before that I built the UI for a tool. It's just like I can just do the thing. You just tell me the thing to do and I'll just go do the thing. I don't worry too I don't try to get super good at

one specific activity. Like I don't want to be a Kubernetes engineer who's the world's greatest deployer. But if I had to go learn Kubernetes, I'd go learn it and learn how to deploy some things and then hopefully move on to like the next thing if that makes sense. Uh I posted about the fact that I'm talking to you on Reddit and there's a lot of wonderful questions. Uh somebody mentioned that I should ask you about DevOps. Can you explain what DevOps is? Is it a kind of special ops of programmers? Is it Cal team 6

of developers? What's DevOps? Can you define what are you a DevOps engineer? Well, people keep telling me DevOps isn't real. There's actually you want platform engineers, cloud engineers, info engineers. Uh I just often think I think the easiest way if we're doing like just kind of like some basic nomenclature. It's just DevOps are the people that make sure that when you launch a service and all that, it doesn't just disappear, right? It's all the kind of backbone of being able to operate something at scale. Like you really don't if you think about if you're just

writing a mom and pop like website. People that do PHP that are doing WordPress and all that, they're going to build something. They're going to hand it off to I don't know, Lenode, Digital Ocean, some company. They don't really need a really complicated build, deployment, all this. It's just someone with a simple website so they can sell their goods. And so they don't really need that. And so that's kind of how I think of a DevOps is when things need to scale. that's kind of the person you hire. Yeah, those people are actually amazing. Yeah.

Of uh the time I spent at Google, it's like, oh yeah, yeah, there's all these fancy machine learning people, but the the folks that are running the compute, the infrastructure basically that make sure the shit doesn't go down. They're like wizards and they're very incredible like vertical of job. And obviously I'm using a very broad term to describe I'm sure like a bunch, you know, because making sure stuff doesn't go down. And you could also say that's like an S sur, right? Site reliability engineer, whatever. You know, the ones that wear the the bomber jackets

at Google. And so when we say DevOps, I think people get very particular about terms specifically in this category. They're like, well, actually, you're mentioning infrastructure engineer versus, you know, versus site reliability engineer. It's just like, okay, yes, I hear you. But generally, when someone thinks DevOps, they think somebody that manages the servers and their life cycles and the reliability. There's DevOps. Is it real? I'm not sure. Okay. Did Verscell kill DevOps? Wow, that's You're almost a journalist. That's a headline. Uh, let's go back to the beginning. All right. Baby Prime. So, you mentioned Netflix.

You've uh Oh, I worked at Netflix, by the way. For people who don't know uh who uh the primigen is, he mentions uh the fact that he has been very successful and has worked at Netflix and basically every other sentence. Correct. Almost as much as I mentioned Neoim. Oh, great. Tell me more about Neoim. No, please don't. So, Baby Prime at the very beginning, you've had one hell of a life and I think it's aspiring to a lot of people. You've you've gone through a lot of painful low points including meth addiction loss and like

you mentioned you've come out of that to become a successful programmer and a person that inspires a huge number of people uh to get into programming and just to find success in life. So maybe I would love it if you laid out just your whole life journey from the beginning. So, I guess if we're going to start with this whole journey, I think it's probably best to start when I was about four or five years old. That was the first time I was ever exposed to pornography. Uh, and it's kind of just earwormed me for

a large portion of my life. And so, I don't think there was a day that didn't go by from when I was a very young lad all the way up until I was 20ome years old where I didn't think about porn on the daily basis. And so, it's just like every single day, even at that young. And so it's just a very mind- conssuming, time-consuming, thought-consuming thing that kind of plagued me from a starting at a very young age. When I was 7 years old, my dad died. Um, that was kind of a really tough

period of life. I I still think about this time that I went over to China and there's kind of some rules that we were given and one of the rules was just like, "Hey, don't talk about God and if you do, use the word dad instead." And I was just like, "Okay, dad." It was like the first time I said that word in like 17 years or some long time. Like it was like so weird to say that phrase and I was just like, "Oh, that was just the strangest thing I've ever said in my

entire lifetime." It just felt so weird. So, kind of rewind as I got older, obviously was very good at computers, good at accessing porn, of course, uh played uh video games on the internet. Fun fun kind of like side quest story. I think the guy's name is Lord Talk on Twitch. I can't quite remember his name, but he built this game called Grail, G R A A L, and Grail Online. And when I was a young lad that it was just like Zelda, except for it also had a level editor and it had like a

seike language. And that's how I discovered how to program is I looked at these symbols and figured out what they meant. And then I was able to make things happen in the game. And that was like a that's my introduction into programming. So, thank you that guy, whatever your Twitch name was. But all right, so keep on going. As I got older, I was super bad socially. I was not a very great social person. I high school was brutal. Got made fun of a lot. Uh really didn't en I wouldn't say I had a great

time during high school. Uh definitely felt very out of place or offset or maybe misplaced, if you will. I'm not sure what the right word is. And so, of course, at that point, I just always wanted to I wanted to be accepted to fit in and all that. I did forget to say one side story. After my dad died, my brother, older brother, he got started getting into drugs and along with that he exposed me to pot. So at 8 years old, I was smoking some marijuana uh for a while there until like maybe 11

or 12 and took a break and then again did a lot of that as I got a little bit older. But so I kind of got a lot of these exposures fairly young, 16, 15 through 18. A lot of drinking and all that. when I graduated or as I was graduating high school, it's just like I had such sadness, if you will. I was very sad about how everything went. Tried to commit suicide. Um, obviously, it was a very poor attempt. And I'm still here today. I'm very happy about that aspect. I'm glad that I

didn't follow through with anything. Had to go to the hospital and all that. And when I was done, I just still remember kind of coming out of the hospital and at like that moment, it's kind of like something broken you. Have you ever read the book uh Wheel of Time? It's 14,000 pages or something like that, but right around page 12,000, Rand has to intentionally kill a girl, the main character, and that's like the moment he breaks and he gets into like hard Rand uh uh Quindelar Rand, if you will. For those that know Wheel

of Time will appreciate all that. Uh for those that don't, it very confusing and I understand. Not the Amazon movie show. Not that not that Wheel of Time. So, now that we kind of go back onto it, at that point, it's just like something kind of broke in me and it's just like I just didn't care anymore. So all the kind of social awkwardness, if you will, all that kind of just died away with me, but also so did everything else. And so I started using a bunch of drugs, LSD, mushrooms, meth, did a bunch

of math, did a bunch of that stuff, and then went off to college and continued to do a bunch of stuff. I took too much acid to where for like quite a few years I had like little squiggies on the side of my eyes whenever I'd walk by high contrast objects. And so it's just like that whole period of life was just kind of marked by um just poor decisions. And then sometime when I was about 19 years old, somewhere in that range, I just had this one evening where it's just I felt the very

dramatic and real presence of God. And it's just like I kind of had this choice like Froto uh on a razor where it's like if I go either way, I'm gonna fall off and I need to change my life. you just you get to make the choice now. Do you want to do that or not? And so I remember going, okay, I do I do want to change my life. Like I don't like this experience. I don't like what I'm living. I am still very sad. I still feel very desperate. I still feel all those

things. I'm just like pretending to be this other person. And then I just went to sleep that night. Nothing changed in my life. Everything was still the way it was. I woke up the next day the same person. And I was just like, "Oh, that's just like such a strange weird kind of experience. And I just went about my day. And then I remember I think that evening I looked at porn and all of a sudden I just had a conscious I just like this deep profound like shame. And I was like I've never felt

shame in my life, right? Like I I have no idea what's happening now. And then all a sudden when I smoked pot I just felt deep shame. And when I hurt somebody or did something wrong all it's just like I got a conscious from that evening. That's what kind of my gift was if you will. And it's just like at that point I didn't even have a choice. I had to change my life cuz for whatever reason I've kind of been changed in the moment. And so from there I started actually trying in school. I

always kind of joke around that I got 2.14 in high school. I had a teacher handw write me a note saying I was the worst student she's ever had. All that kind of stuff. I was not a really great student. And then in that moment it's just like okay now life's changed and I start trying to learn. You know I try to become a good student. And it turns out it's really hard. Like I was I was really bad. I still got C's. I went and took pre-calculus and failed pre-calculus. And I'm like, "Oh my

gosh, I used to be the smart math guy and now I'm kind of the idiot failing." And so it's like I'm just questioning myself and all that. And I spent hours upon hours in in like a studying uh math learning center and then just at some point years into this journey, I'm like a year and a half into this journey at this point. It's just like something clicks and I go from being the worst person to just immediately becoming the best. Everything after that is just I don't know what happened. All of a sudden I

was the best person at math. I started going into my computer science classes. I just really got everything. It's just like everything at at just years after trying just all of a sudden became easier. And I'm not sure if it happened over the course of weeks or when the easier started, but it was just first predicated by just a huge amount of difficulty. And then this is kind of where I started really desiring and loving the process of learning was when things started getting easier after all those years cuz I just was motivated by this

desire to do something not not thinking it was going to get any easier. And then all a sudden it just started getting easier and it was great. And that's kind of really where I guess I started having the biggest parts of my life change. At that point, I started really, really, really wanting to never look at porn again because every single time just such shame and I really wanted to stop. And that was by far the hardest addiction to quit. Like smoking cigarettes was also a really hard addiction to quit. Shockingly hard addiction to quit,

but porn by far was just the worst of them all. And then I think about 22, I was finally done with all kind of addictions, if you will. And then for a year, I just I just worked in all that. and I think right around maybe it was 21 and 3/4 somewhere in that range. I'm not really sure where I I stopped all the addictions part but or at least the outwardly addictions. And then at some point 6 months later, a year later, met my beautiful wife. Things just started falling more and more into place.

I loved more and more work. I loved programming. I started programming like 12 hours a day. I watched the social network movie. And after that, I was just like, I'm doing a startup. And so like that night, I started my first startup and I was just like, so it was in PHP, by the way. PHP. Yeah. 5.2 two or something like that. It was great great times and I was just so motivated to do that and I would just program for sometimes I'd program for 24 36 hours straight and I just like non-stop just that's

all I wanted to do at all points. I think my wife got a little sick of me. I wouldn't she would be like can you drop me off at school and I'd be like no I'm programming. I was not a very nice, you know, I didn't think through things that well and I was just so into it and I just did it non-stop and that's kind of like how I became me is that story if that makes sense. Let's try to reverse engineer some of the pain and some of the triumph. You made it sound

easy at times. Let's try to understand it better. Maybe when you were 7 years old, what do you think about the pain you've experienced there losing your dad? What do you think? What kind of impact did it have on you? What kind of memories do you have of that time? The best way I can kind of put it is that I just never knew what a dad was. I was young enough that I could kind of maybe repress or just even have the capability of remembering things long term cuz I know most people don't remember

a lot from when they're young. And so I'm not exactly sure. I probably as at one of the best possible ages if I'm going to lose a dad to lose a dad, you know, uh if you're going to lose one, if you're 11 or 12, it's like a terrible age. That's what my brother was and he fell into drug addiction and never got back out. And so I just kind of have more of like a fuzziness and just kind of a longing that I I just wish I had a dad. What impact did that have

on your evolution, on your life, sort of having that longing. I think that's why I was so bad uh socially in the sense that I was looking for approval, right? Like something I needed approval. I think a lot of people kind of desire that approval or that loving figure and I just didn't have that and so I think I just looked for it in everything else right like if I to psychoanalyze my actions during the time it's not like I was actively thinking that uh but yeah I just always wanted something to fill in whatever

that was I felt I think a lot of people listening to this will resonate with your experience in high school like being the outsider being picked on uh struggling through a lot of different complexities at home. What advice would you give to them? Man, the worst part about high school is that you're surrounded by a bunch of people your age and it feels eternal. Yeah. You don't think like the people that are around you, you feel like are the people that will be there for the rest of your life. At least that's what I kind

of like I thought and I didn't really even realize this until many years later that they are going to be some of the least consequential people in your life. Yeah. which is very shocking to kind of think about especially if you're in it right now right like right now they are the everything that you're experienc one day it all stops and then real life starts to begin it's just that's such a shocking thing and if I could just tell myself that maybe I would have been a much different person that's so beautifully put I mean

it is a it's like a trial run you know like at the beginning of video games there's a little tutorial that's what that is yeah And actually that should be a chance uh to try shit out to take risks. Uh because real life will begin where there is more consequences after that. Here you can you know if you like a girl ask her out try shit. If you get picked on, hit that guy back. Try shit out. I'm not going to condone punching another person. I will beat the shit out of them and uh take

some jiu-jitsu and learn how to take him down. And then and then and then that girl that rejected you will be like, "hm, maybe I'll give that guy a second chance. Be a bad motherfucker." It's a chance to try stuff out. This is a very motivational speech for kicking ass. It is true there. I mean, there is something very true about that that I think especially I I mean, I have no idea what the girls experience of high school would be like, but as a guy, there's definitely a lot of like physical requirements in high

school. There's a lot of physical measurement, at least where I grew up. I think that might not be true in all high schools, but if they're filled with boys, it's probably true. And so, it's just like, yeah, it probably does help to do those things, to go to BJJ, to do any of these activities because even if you don't ever kick someone's ass, just having some level of confidence in yourself is probably a very valuable thing. But just remembering that this is such a short tiny moment in your life is just like a huge help.

I mean the way you phrased it is exactly right. That's what it feels like that this is these are the people that will be with you for the rest of your life and this is the whole world. And so that means that there'll be just tremendous amount of impact. If somebody picks on you or if you fall somebody low somewhere low in the hierarchy uh in the status hierarchy of this high school that means you'll be low in the status hierarchy of the world and you're fucked for the rest of your life. And that that

carries a tremendous amount of weight. It's just why psychologically it's extremely difficult to be I I think it's underated often by parents by society how difficult it is to be a high schooler. How difficult psychologically it is. How it actually makes sense that some people would suffer from depression and be on the verge of suicide. It's very very difficult. Yeah. I think it's even I you know people always say back in my day you know blah blah blah. I think it's genuinely harder today than it's ever been in the sense that when I was a

kid there was a qualification to people meaning this is a cool guy this is not a cool guy today there's a quantification of people you have 32,514 people following you have 12 like there people can visually they can inspect your exact social value on whatever platform you're on and that has to be just so much harder and I can imagine that there's a lot of of just so much weight put on that that it's just it feels probably way worse and way more damning to be uncool because you have an exact number of how uncool

you are. Yeah. The challenge there and the task the quest is to remember that just because your social circle on social media and uh in high school thinks you're uncool, it actually might mean you are cool. Yeah. And you need to find that cool and grow it and let it flourish so that when real life begins, you can fucking come out of the gate firing on all cylinders. That's a great way to put it. I I I think if anything, high school is really bad at picking out the cool people that like uh the whatever

the system, the hierarchy that forms, it is so it's such a basic bitch hierarchy. Like you're good at very generic shit. That's how you rise. Your parents bought you an expensive car. Expensive car, right? Materialistic shit. Yeah, exactly. It's a greedy search. See, they didn't have a proper search, so they're just hitting that local optima. But the herist, I mean, even the objective function uh for that greedy search is just a really shitty one. Yeah. Where those people that win the game of high school are very often not going to be the people that win

the much more exciting, beautiful game of life. So, do epic shit and uh try stuff out. The weirdos are the ones that are going to succeed. The weirdos in high school, uh, probably because they also get bullied and they get to be tormented more psychologically and get to explore their own mind and think through what it means to be a human being more. Cuz if you're winning in high school, you're not being challenged. Yeah. You're not self-reflecting. You're not trying shit out. So, there is some degree to like being tormented as long as it doesn't

break you. the porn addiction. That's another powerful one that I think will probably resonate with a lot of people. And it's interesting you say that's one of the hardest addictions um to uh overcome. Let me say it this way. Some addictions have a much bigger societal look and porn is just not one of them, which makes it super hard. None of your friends are going to cheer you on. If you go on Twitter and say, "I quit porn." They're going to be like, "Well, that's good for you, but not everybody." You know, not every, you

know, no one makes that argument with meth, right? No one's going to be like, "Well, not everyone has to quit math, okay? It's actually a fine industry and people who, you know, are the ones producing it, they're good also, right?" Like, no one's going to make that kind of argument. Whereas with porn, you're going to have like a whole thing and friends friends are going to think you're dumb for doing it or whatever. It's like you have it's a much more difficult one in just like that. So, it feels accepted. And I think it's also

an addiction you can practice, participate in privately, and hide it from the world. There are certain addictions that are harder to hide from the world for prolonged periods of time. Yeah. And porn addiction is probably one you can just have for many years and then it can deepen. That's probably like a serious issue. Boy, am I glad I grew up before the internet because the it's porn is so accessible, so so easy to go deep into that addiction. Uh I mean what can you speak about what impact it had on your life? Maybe some of

the low points but also how to overcome it. I'd say as far as impact goes is that you will have such a long and broken look at women by the very like I can again I'm only speaking from a a male's perspective that porn in its just like most basic thing is that you use another person for your own uh desire or your own want. It's not something that is deeply needed. There's no need there's no like need for porn. It's purely a want-based activity or a lust, however you want, whatever word you can fill

in there. And it is purely an objectifying activity. Like someone else is on display for your own enjoyment. And so I think you carry this around. Like I do think that the women that I dated during high school or the women after high school and college, like I looked at them as a means to an end. I think porn greatly kind of shifted that kind of perspective in my head that I did not give the value that was desired to another person. It really devalues uh humanity just in general is my perspective of it and

that it makes people into commodities and I don't think people are commodities. I think everyone has value and so during that for me that's kind of like the great effect of porn is that you know it's just consumerism gone wild or materialism maybe you could ask argue gone wild and it's extremely hard to quit just like you said because I can look at porn and then I can go out to lunch. Mhm. you know, no one's going to know. No one's going to have any ideas. Like, it's a very private. It can be very short

session. It doesn't have to be something that takes like, you know, you can't take acid than go out to lunch, right? You're going to be you're going to your whole day is going to be a very different day. And so, there's a it's very quick, easy, accessible, and then obviously there's like all the like the science and you know, statistics like men make worse decisions for some period of time after looking or being exposed to sexualized images. There's the whole dopamine effect that's just like you constantly need more and more dopamine. That's why people typically

don't just watch five minutes of porn and call it a day. There's like, you know, the hundth tab joke that's always made on the internet. It's because you it's just this this constant dopamine cycle you're constantly doing. And all that stuff is great to say. And I'm sure statistics and science and all that stuff is really great arguments for some amount of people, but for me it just comes down to like is it really a good thing to do? Like is it really actually something we want is to value people in such a profane or

kind of just like disregarding way. Like I just really think it's just bad for the soul. Even if all the stats said it was great for you, I still say it's actually bad. Yeah. You have to look at the long-term big picture psychological impact it has on your relationships with human beings in general. That's my more generally than just porn. Uh, my problem with the the quoteunquote sort of manosphere is I think sleeping with a bunch of women is great, wonderful, but the problem is is making that the primary objective of your life. Similar with

porn is you devalue one of the most awesome things which is intimacy. That's true for deep friendship. That's true for relationships. And I think porn does that like in its purest darkest form which is like the thing that matters is the sex not the like the deep connection with another human being. I think again going back to high school and uh the the manosphere the objective function if it's to get laid which helps with status and confidence and all all that is wonderful I think again can be an addiction but the thing that's even more

awesome for a lot of people is a deep friendship or deep intimacy with a with a romantic partner like that's also fucking awesome and both of those are great. It's objectively better to have like I would say that there's no universe that exists or there should be no argument possible that exists that a guy who has meaningless sex has a better or a more meaningful life than say me and my wife who've been together for 15 years. We have a very like I can depend on her in all circumstances. Whereas if you live that other

life it sure it could be it could feel great but there's no meaning to it. There's no val there's no actual real value to it. That's absolutely correct. I do think that getting laid can have a tremendous positive impact on the confidence of a young man. I think just there's a certain number of sexual partners from which you can collect a lot of data and you can free you about like not to be so nervous about the opposite sex, not to be so nervous about human interaction. And that will allow you to see the world

more clearly and to actually find that one partner that with whom you could be deeply intimate with. Sometimes like the nervousness around like this society uh constructed like value in getting laid can cloud your judgment. And if you just release that by getting laid a bunch of times, then like you could see the world clearly that getting laid is not as nearly as important as you said as finding the right human, including I should put in that pile not just like a romantic partner, but like friendships, like deep lasting friendships. Well, I mean, I think

you're right that our society puts a lot of emphasis on getting laid. And I'm sure that's true among any group of males uh throughout any point in history. I'm sure that's a very common joke that's never actually like never stopped at any point. So, I'm I'm sure that exists, but and there's there's probably some truth to the sense that after you've you know who was it? Uh Jim Carrey, I hope that everyone can get rich so they realize that money solves none of your problems. Yeah. Like the realization that this thing that society told you

is hyper important is actually not the important part. Like it is a very important It's a great sign that your relationship is healthy. Like if me and my wife were to have no sex at all for months on end, like something's gone wrong, which means what, you know, we are no longer like on the same plane, something, you know, but it's not also a good identifier. Just because you're having a lot of sex doesn't mean you're having a good relationship. And so it's kind of like a unique kind of um I forget the the right

term here, but it's a unique way at looking at the problems. And our society puts so much emphasis. And maybe that's why porn was so hard to quit. But I my guess is it's just all the dopamine effect that it is. Uh but for me like the the most important part and the thing that actually has real reward is having that having just my wife. I do not look at I try I desperately try not to look at any other woman. I'm hopefully not going to get caught Mark Zuckerberg at the White House like that.

Um you know like I don't look at porn. My wife has complete confidence in me that there is not going to be a situation in which she has to question me in any kind of sense and that builds a much more deeply I I would argue a very deep relationship because the trust is that much bigger. I think the deepness of the relationship is probably proportional to the trust you have in each other. Mhm. It's very hard to have a deep relationship with no trust. Yeah. And uh a probably a prerequisite maybe a component of

trust is vulnerability to where you like take the leap of being vulnerable with another human being and that vulnerability when reciprocated builds this this really strong trust and it's a beautiful thing. Yeah. I I I personally just given my position uh that's even more challenging, you know, being vulnerable with the world and there's a bunch of people out there that want to hurt you for it and um but I think it's worthwhile anyway to be vulnerable. It's always worth the risk is always worth it in in some sense. Like obviously everyone has a different kind

of life they have to filter through their actions with, right? because the person that has no say social following or anything, their riskreward profile could just be local impact which could be just as you know damning or harming to them. And so it's always worth the risk though in my personal opinion cuz like finding my wife is been obviously the most impactful or changing thing in my life. So or second most. I'd argue that one night with God would probably be the most impactful thing that led to everything else, but then the wife would be

the next most impactful. I mean I'm like cleaning up after myself and stuff now. changed man. I'm a changed man. Can we try to reverse engineer that moment of you finding God? What is it at 19? Because it feels like that was a big leap for you to escape to escape the pain to escape the addiction or the beginning of that journey. Uh what do you think what do you think happened there? I think it just felt like I just there was no line that I wasn't willing to cross. Like everything was fine and just

like it just all a sudden just in that moment it's just like I had a I guess some sort of deep fear and understanding like I am going down a path. Is this really the path you want to go down? And I don't know what the result of that path would be or anything like that. I don't tend to speculate on things I I don't understand. I just know that in that moment I had the option and I just chose I I didn't want it anymore. Right? It's kind of mixed in this whole thing where

it's just like I had no value. I wrapped up all my meaning or value in having sex or getting laid. I had, you know, all that stuff. All the things we just talked about like that was where all my worth was. And that is just such a like a terrible place to have your worth. And it's just like kind of all came to a point. And I can't tell you the day of the week. I can't tell you anything other than it was nighttime and I was in South Hedges in Montana State University. Go Bobcats.

Um that's about Yeah, that's the sign that we do at football games. Don't worry about it. But like that's all I can really that's all I can really tell you cuz the night it that night was no more or less special than some other night. It's just the specialness was I got at least a chance to make a choice. Because you find in that advice that you can give to others who are probably there's there's probably just an endless amount of people that are struggling with porn addiction, not young people. What what advice could you

give to them? How to overcome it? For me to overcome it, I had to realize that I was taking something away from my future wife. Some people be like, "Oh, well, you just, you know, once you get a girlfriend, then you can stop." And it's just like, "No, because you never stopped the problem. You don't stop a problem by replacing it. And so I didn't have a girlfriend. I didn't have all that. I just realized that I was truly taking away from something for my future wife. And I didn't even know my current wife at

that time. I didn't she was not in the picture. I'm not even sure if she was at Montana State University at that point. And so it's just that's uh once I made that realization, I think it went from my head to my heart, which they say is the greatest distance in the universe. I finally like got it. And that's really where things change. So if the the ability to say like what's going to help you change and all that, I don't know if there's I don't think there's silver bullets, right? If someone could offer you

a drug, I forget who says this phrase, but there's this really interesting phrase that goes something like um he was a very depressed man and he was struggling with suicide and he kind of writes about this in this memoir and he goes to the these doctors and the doctors effectively say, "Well, here's anti-depressants. It's going to help you." And he says that well the problem was is that scientists told me that I could just touch my brain and make myself happy and that's it. Like they could reach in, they could configure some stuff and I'll

be happy. He's like for me it was a lot like going out into a field and being able to take a drug to see the rain. I could look out, see the rain, it would fall down, it'd be silvery, it'd be beautiful, but all the crop would still die cuz there's not actually any rain. I had to discover how to be happy myself. And so for me, it's like the reason why I looked at porn is cuz I was unhappy. I was trying to find meaning. I was trying to find value in something, right? Something

that was supposed to finally give me this ultimate satisfaction. And it just does not. No matter how hard and no matter how much you think it will, there is no escapade. There is no pornography that will ever give you that satisfaction you're looking for. That's the reason why it's addicting. That's kind of like my call to why you shouldn't do it. But how to get out of it, I only got out of it by realizing. I think that's really brilliantly described. You knew that this thing you're doing is preventing you from finding your future wife.

And future wife could mean more even broadly this path to a to a to a flourishing to a to a beautiful life. I think there's a lot of choices we make that are just preventing us from opening the door to whatever future. Like I think what's really nice to do is to imagine just like we said with high school that there are a bunch of trajectories in life where you'll be truly happy. And you need to construct your life in a way where you have the chance to travel down those paths. And there's a bunch

of addictions. there's a bunch of choices that prevent us from traveling down those paths. So, just believe that you're going to have an awesome life and remove from your life the things that are uh preventing you from walking down that that path, which is essentially what you did. It's a leap of faith that like if you let go of porn that a better life is waiting for you on the other end. Yeah. I definitely can't say how long it will take a better life, but for me, there's no way in the universe I could have

had the relationship that I have without first making those steps cuz I couldn't value uh like I couldn't value my wife in the way that was proper for who she was. I would have valued her through the index or the lens that I currently was looking through. So, got to ask. So, I've never done math. I've never done meth. That was a great segue by the way. Oh man, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing honestly with this interviewing thing. But yeah, meth and LSD, you know, I did Iaska, I did shrooms a bunch

of times. Oh, on this topic, I should say that like uh there's a lot of uh on Twitter and on tech in the tech community in general sort of people speaking negatively about Iawaska. Uh and some positively. I don't I think it's it's such a roll of the dice. Like I I had incredible experiences, but I don't think I want to recommend it to anyone. It's a risk. It's a serious risk. It really is a roll of the dice. Like you could meet your demons and they could destroy you or you can meet your demons

and let go of them or you could have experiences like I did which is like never apparently I don't have demons. I'm pretty sure they're somewhere in the basement but like I've never met them on drugs. Yeah. I'm always a really happy. I'm a happy drunk. I'm a uh super happy an Iaska just full of love. I don't understand. I don't understand where the demons are. But that's my biochemistry, whatever that is. And for some others, you know, one trip could be amazing and the next one could just completely destroy you and wreck your life.

So, um I don't know what the recommendation from that is. maybe avoid it, but then all of us die and life, you know, I I tend to lean into adventure, but but drugs is a it's if you fuck with the biochemistry of your brain, you can really destroy yourself in a way that's going to torment you. though. I would generally recommend that people avoid drugs altogether probably unless you're crazy motherfucker. Hunter S. Thompson. What an intro to this topic. Uh I'm sorry. What's meth like? That is it's it's that's a great intro. I I I

like you are very correct in the sense that there is at least when it comes to hallucin what you're going to experience and there is no guarantee there's no you know just because you buy the product doesn't mean you're going to have a good time right there's a lot of uh personally I find that stuff uh to be very I believe in the spiritual realm right like I believe demons and angels exist I believe God exists and that kind of whole realm is like I don't know what it opens you up But it's much much

different experience. Now, some people be like, "Oh, it's just a bunch of chemicals in your brain. They all get mixed up." LSD just takes all of your pathways and they all go, you know, they all get kind of scrambled up in your brain. It's just like, yeah, the experiences are profound. I had some really bizarre, very cool, very awful. I've had all the experiences in them all. I can just tell you that I like I personally always say the same thing. It's like choices that I made I can never take back. I would never take

that away from myself because I don't know if I would be who I am today without all those experiences going up to it. But if you have not had that experience, I'm on your team or at least partially on your team, maybe more severely. I don't think you need those experiences. I don't think they're going to you don't have to put yourself through that to make a good decisions or to realize that uh people have value, right? You can you you don't have to do that. So, as far as like what is meth like? Meth

is like, if you've ever done cocaine, cocaine starts off with like a 15-minute dance party just like like it's just so intense. It's like so great. And then it's just followed up by like like a 5 hour like just feeling wiggly, right? I don't know how else to describe it. Meth is like that except for I didn't get as much dance party or any dance party, but instead I just got that part for like 12 hours. Yeah. So did a lot of skateboarding, did a lot of, you know, running around. Would you say it's a

pleasant feeling or is it more like an escape from the loneliness of life? What is it pleasant or negative? In the actual moment, not the consequences, but in the moment. So there I mean this is this is just like a very interesting kind of area which is that not universally you can't say that. Um often you'll find that there's kind of these two um groups of drug addicts. There's those that like the the opioids and those that like the uppers. They typically don't like there's there's very few people in the drug world that do both.

They're really just kind of like find their side and they go for it. So, will is meth a thing that everybody's going to enjoy. Well, categorically as you can see and just like how people experience drug addiction. No. Uh but for me, it's just like I had a really it kind of like feeds into like the ADHD nature of like this like cuz you know you're kind of high energy. You're kind of like always in the moment. So, it's just like you're in the moment, but it's just like, "Oh, I'm in the moment," you know,

like it's like everything's just so intense, you know, like you just want to like really be in the moment. Uh, and so it's just experiencing that constantly. And so, was that great? Well, some people, you know, my wife always tells me this, like being like nervous or I forget the anxiety of a situation can also be the same thing as like thrill. I forget the exact way. She she's probably super disappointed that I messed this up, but it's like you could perceive those two experiences in very different lights. Some people, you know, get in front

of a crowd and it's like thrilling. Some people get in front of it and it's just like the worst experience of their lifetime. They would actually literally rather die, which is a crazy thing to think about than stand up and speak. And so for me, meth was that kind of thrilling side, but at the same time is it didn't it still didn't like quite give me that thing I wanted. whatever I was looking for, I'd use it to help try to get that thing I want, but it was never giving me that thing I wanted.

Yeah. Uh, for me, I've had all really wonderful experiences. Do not recommend them, but like what was like a YouTube policy, by the way, that you have to say, by the way, don't whatever you do, do not do illegal activity. But I had great experience, but don't whatever you do, don't do it. Mr. Primigen, I have no master. I don't have YouTube or whatever. I'll say whatever the fuck I want. I'm just uh But seriously, no, I don't No, I don't give a shit about YouTube or anybody. Honestly, I'm just kind of careful about the

words I say because just because I had positive experiences. I don't want young people listening to this think they should try the experience. I think the much more powerful message is that life is awesome even without that. That's something I definitely experiment with on the alcohol side. So for me, you know, I'm an introvert. I'm afraid of the world. Social interaction fills me with with anxiety. Alcohol is definitely a thing that helps with that sometimes. But I think honestly like it's not even the alcohol. It's like having to do something while a person is talking

to me. I could just like drink a liquid if they Yeah. Mhm. There's like a social thing with a beer. It's like Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, we're having fun. And I think it's it work for me. It works the same as if the if the liquid actually looks like alcohol, it does the same purpose often because like alcohol from like if you have of a a whiskey or a beer looking thing, it kind of sends a signal that we should be having fun. So, we're socializing, right? We're fucking getting crazy. And then that mean you don't

actually need the alcohol. You can get fucking crazy without the alcohol substance. Yeah. But there is some kind of uh like uh social signaling that happens when you have a drink in your hand. So I've been to gettogethers where I'm not drinking but just doing like a fake drink situation and I can also have fun. So I've been uh but that said, you know, traveling across the world, there are times when you be able to dawn a bottle of vodka. That's very essential for the for my line of work. But but that's that's sort of

that's almost like a cultural experience versus like a necessary component of a successful uh social interaction, one that brings you happiness. So uh not drinking. I think you can have fun and not drink too. So all of this man I'm so careful saying drugs have had a a good effect on my life because I think for most people no for majority of people they will in the long term long term have a negative effect. So, I think if you were to choose one or the other, just no drugs, uh, and no drinking means one day

you can be the president of the United States, kids. And I should say, oh man, his funniest line. Diet Diet Coke is great. That's his funniest line, which is, you would hate me if I drink, which I just like to me that tickles me like to no end. Just like, oh my gosh, that is such a funny line. Self-awareness and humor is wonderful there. But I I am on your team. Like all of the reasons why I used drugs and all that was a form. It's some level of escapism. I'm sure that's like would be

the archetype or the box I'd put that into or the pursuit of trying to feel something that cannot come from them. It's like trying to find meaning in your job. You can find satisfaction in what you do. Like that is a very good thing. You can find satisfaction and be happy with what you've created. You can be, you know, thrilled by the experience. But you cannot find I doubt you can find purpose. you know, maybe some people in specific jobs, you know, like this obviously of very broad strokes I'm painting with like if you're an

EMT and you save someone's life, maybe, you know, there can be purpose in that whole experience, right? So, I'm not saying all things, but like as programming goes, most programmers, you cannot just simply find your purpose. And same with drugs, like you cannot find that thing you're looking for, but they are a very great distraction. Mhm. And then at some point, that distraction comes with a heavy cost. I think Dr. FA would probably know the best about the heavy cost, but it's just you're making one trade for another and at some point the the bill

comes due and that bill can be very very large. The other moment you mentioned that I think is really inspiring is that you know you failed pre-calculus, you really struggle in school like you realize that school is really hard and then eventually you're able to sort of persevere and um I don't know break through that wall of struggle. Can you by way of advice figure out what happened and what the kind of advice you can give to people who are struggling? Yeah, I I'll paint it in kind of more clear picture, a very fast speedrun

of it is that I took pre-calculus, failed, I took pre-calculus again, failed, took pre-calculus again and got a C. So, I took it three times. Uh, then I took calc over the summer. So, calc one in that one at the end, the final, the final was a two-hour final. I finished it in 30 minutes and that was the highest score in all of the school and I proceeded to be the highest score in all calculus and diffyq. I was the only person out of 400 people to finish the diffyq final. Uh and I got the

highest grade and so I was like I got really good. So I somehow went from really bad to really good and so my only the thing that I did is that I had to win. It was not a option. It was not like oh you know this would be really great. It's like I will not graduate. I will not finish my stuff if I cannot do this. And so every single day I got up, I went to my what, however many hour class it was. Right after that, I went straight to the math learning center,

did those problems. When I got home, I just got the book and it had the odd answers in the back and I would try to walk through the problems over and over and over and over again until I absolutely got it. And it just became this thing where I just I it just simple wrote memory took over. and the ability to just effectively have the times table but for calculus all stuck in my head inverse trig substitution trig substitution doing Taylor McLaren series like all those things kind of just over and over and over and

over again eventually they became easy they became very easy it's just that I had to cram it in there and some people you know you hear these stories where they they barely show up to class and they get A's I've never been that person I've always been the person that has to sit down read through everything and I'm bad at abstract concepts I like the concrete into the abstract, not the abstract into the concrete. Very bad at talking about things theoretically then trying to apply them. But if I can do it once literally, then it's

really easy for me to go into the abstract. And so it's just like for me, it just I had there's no substitute for the hours. So if you if I were to give advice, it's just that you have to have time in the saddle. Hour after hour will make you slowly better. And at first it's crushing, it's defeating and it's not fun because you are bad at it. But then at some point it you're just not bad at it if you can just do it long enough and you'll start getting okay at it. And then

at some point you might even get good at it. And when you get good at something it feels amazing. There's like an exploratory thing like if you're if you've ever played a musical instrument, you stop having to think about all the little teeny things you have to do to be able to play something correctly and you start thinking about how you can explore that space. It's like it you a completely different problem. And same with programming. Programming has an identical kind of feel to it. It's just like you'll cross that barrier and it becomes magical

as opposed to a chore. Yeah. Once you cross that barrier, somehow other things become easier. But then if you want to have a truly successful life, then you find the next barrier. Yeah. The next barrier. Yeah. I've always been the same. It's everything's come really hard. Yeah. I do not I had I've had no free lunches. Everything's just been a lot of a lot of pain and struggle. Uh I think somebody said that the on this topic that you think work smarter not harder is a phrase that you dislike. Somebody on Reddit told me this.

Yeah. I don't just dislike it. I hate that phrase. Okay, tell me tell me tell me about your hatred. How how do you feel? The reason why I dislike that is that there is a kind of a a hidden suggestion there which is that you already know what smarter is. So just do that. That actually things should be easy. You should just not have to like try that hard. You should just do the quick easy obvious path and boom, it's done. It's like I've never experienced that in anything I've done. everything is actually really hard

and most the time I don't even know what I'm doing. So therefore, I don't even know what smart looks like. And so for me, the only way I can learn how to work smart is by working very very hard and knowing that there's no shortcuts. And then when I finally figure out what smart is when I work smart and work hard, it is that much better. I think there's a deep profound truth to that. There's a lot of these phrases that just drive me nuts in our society. But but that one is sorry that one

is really accepted if we can just linger on it because it really bothers me as well. So one which is a really nice thing you said the presumption there is things should be easy and you're a failure if you don't see the easy path. That's kind of the work smart dog. Why why you putting in all those hours? And so it makes a lot of people that struggle feel like they're a failure. Yeah. Cuz like I don't see it. And then the choice I have, well, I'll just go with the uh with the l I'll

just be lazy and then maybe the profound truth will come to me somehow. And and yeah, I think I don't think I've ever and I don't think I've met great engineers uh that find the smart way without the extremely hard work. The annoying thing about those great engineers is then looking back they forget the hard work because they remember all the joy they they now are experiencing from all the efficient smart work they figured out how to do. They forget. So when they give advice, they give the stupid fucking advice of well just do it

like you know the easy way and here's the easy way. But no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have to put in the hours. Like, you know, musical instrument is a beautiful example of guitar and piano. I've put in I don't know how many thousands of hours. And now when I'm explaining stuff, jiu-jitsu as well. I'm I sound like I sound like one of those people like just, you know, just relax, you know, in jiu-jitsu. By the way, just relax is a really wonderful thing for physical endeavors like piano and so on. But

to learn how to relax your hand, how to relax your mind, your body, and uh use the the whatever the biomechanics of your body to apply the correct kind of leverage and the timing and all that. That takes thousands of hours of learning. Just to learn how to relax takes a lot of really hard work. In jiu-jitsu, that takes many months of getting your ass beat over and over until you like uh you know ride the bus home crying, your your ego completely shattered and destroyed and then like a little element is figured out late

that night or next morning. And from the depression, there's this uh little plant that grows this flower of uh insight. And you use that insight to then get your ass kicked again all next fucking month and year. And then you grow and grow and grow. And from that you discover how beautifully simple jiu-jitsu is or judo is for just speaking for myself or piano or guitar. And then yes, the the profound truth or the mastery of a skill feels simple when you finally arrive to it, but the path is for most people is uh is

going to be a hard one. Can Can I I think I should make an addendum to the phrase. I think the phrase should be work hard, get smart. Nice. That's a t-shirt. That's what it should be. Yeah, agreed. Okay, that was a tangent of a tangent. Can I say one more phrase, cultural phrase that I absolutely hate? Yes. Uh the journey is better than the destination. Right. Everyone's heard this, right? Mhm. Just take one second to apply what that means. That means forever starting from now, you are only going towards a place that's worse, right?

Like that that literally is what it means, right? Enjoy the journey, celebrate the destination. That's like that should be what it would be. But no, people say these phrases are everywhere. There's these very shallow phrases that have no logical bounds to them. You're just like, what does that why would the journey ever be better than the destination? Cuz you're always this I think this might even be a CS Lewis uh quote is that CS Lewis was like, nope, this is terrible. Don't the journey is not in fact better than the destination. I love the demotivational

posters. Uh progress moving forward is better than moving backwards even if you're still going nowhere. There's a there's a I feel that one so so much being in California for a few years. That is that is painful. Positivity. If it doesn't break you today, don't worry. It will try again tomorrow. It's just a lot of really great posters. I didn't even know this was a thing. This is a thing. Oh my gosh. I want that. Yeah. Hey. Hi. This is the primogen. You know, one thing that I forgot to mention in this podcast, which feels

just so foolish to me for forgetting is just what a big role my mom played in my life. She had to work 18 hours a day after my dad died. She really made our house be able to survive. I always looked up to her and I always thought her amazing and she really was the reason why when I decided to get my butt kicked back in gear, she's just someone who I looked to as like an internal kind of inspiration for me to continue to keep on going cuz I really wanted to make her proud.

and all those years of just high energy effort. I really wanted to make sure that she knew that I was just so dang appreciative for it. So, hey, I just wanted to say thank you. Love you, Mom. For people who don't know, you worked at Netflix, by the way. by the way. Now, how did you go from there from the hardship that we mentioned from the struggle from the addictions and so on to a place where you were working at this this incredible engineering company and uh building cool shit there. So, tell the Netflix story.

Yeah. So, you know, I kind of alluded to it earlier that I wanted to do my own startup. So for I forget how long it was, one or two years or 2 and 1/2 years, built a startup, PHP, jQuery, everyone's favorite languages all put together. Uh you can solve math stuff with jQuery. So I just was like totally into just non-stop doing that. This is like the height of Stack Overflow. Us asking really dumb questions on Stack Overflow, like what is more Pythonic? And then you get a bunch of up votes and try to steal

a bunch of karma away. Like all the fun stuff to do, good times. And I was just like so into it breathing and I just breathe it in, breathe it out and that's what I do all day every day. And so it's just like non-stop building of a startup. Ultimately that startup failed and so I had to get you know go get a real job. Can you say what the startup was? It is so wild thinking about it in the past. I before I tell you what it is I want to tell one quick thing

about my dad. My dad in the early 90s, like 91, 92, was building kind of like a phone card company where you'll be able to pre- purchase long distance minutes. Now, if you remember the '9s and about like what 97, 98, 99, 10, 10, 220, all those different things, dial down the center, right? Like all those companies where you can pre- purchase long distance kind of came out and were very, very big. And so my dad was like six years early to that notion. and ultimately his startup failed but he was just really early to

something that would catch on really really big specifically in the telecommunication space. me as I grew up and did my own startup. I did a startup where was text message marketing. This was in 2010 where you could receive say texts about various deals, all that kind of stuff. And of course 10 years later now you don't stop receiving texts. And text message marketing is all the rage. And so I also much like my father had a startup in the telemarketing space in which was just like a half decade too early. So is it fair to

say you're almost always ahead of your time at your visionary of sorts? No. In fact, I am not ahead of my time. I just got un some would say I got unlucky on that uh situation, but I did see it was it seemed so obvious to me at that time when I was doing it. 80% of phones were dumb phones. Most people had flip phones when I went and sold uh via text is what the name was of that specific product. It was and we had the short code via text, too. So, it's pretty, you

know, pretty clever, right? Six digits. Uh when I went out and sold it, I only had a flip phone during that time. I didn't even have a smartphone. Mhm. Right. Cuz that they were kind of untenable for a lot of people. So it's, you know, it's kind of just wild times to think about. But then after that, obviously had to get a real job. We were living in an apartment in uh right next to campus Boseman, Montana. And the guy below us must have been on some some amount of drugs. He threatened to kill us

several times. Would just like scream and just lose his marbles all the time. Very unhinged man. Angry downstairs man is what we called him. One time my wife had dropped a battery. double A. Okay, so not like a big we're not talking about like a B battery or D battery. We're just talking about a double A. Dropped it. Land on the ground. I'm going to kill you like crazy, right? Absolutely unhinged behavior down there. So I had to go get a real job. We need to move out of there. We're going to start our life.

And so I worked at a small placey, which I kind of talked about the boredom there. Got to go to a place called Web Filings where I'm working just tons and tons of hours during all that time. I'm still trying to figure out startups. did one where you could uh pre-wish your friend's birthday messages and then it would automatically send it via Facebook beforehand. We called it grief feed. It was pretty it was pretty clever. Nonetheless, that story, I say all that story because everything that I was doing was exploring, building, finishing things, working, learning

about corporate life, learning how to communicate in corporate life. Uh, being able to be successful at a job, learning about a bunch of kind of technologies that were about, and one of the big technologies during that day, specifically 2013, was RxJS, if you remember that one. RxJS, that's a link from C, uh, kind of ported over to JavaScript. And for people who don't know, I guess C, what is its closest neighbor? Java. Is Java like? They obviously just took Java and ripped it off at one point, but now it's such a dynamic, interesting language that

it seems like it could be a really cool like bounds of practical versus not practical. It's just I I'm not really into wearing pleated pants in programming at a Microsoft house. So, is pleated pants a requirement? I think so. Okay, we'll get back to this. Can we just get back? All right. web web filings web filings was that's where I had to do like all the matric matricy stuff and build systems and just kind of all that and it really pushed me cuz they also wanted me to do like 60 hours a week. um it

was not very healthy work life balance was very hard work and kind of like that really hard work going to cutting edge stuff really understanding the world really made it so that I was able to just be able to talk about stuff very commandingly because you know we had to build really complex state machines for the UI for what we're building and so when I went and started getting a LinkedIn and all that inevitably just due to the fact that I've touched all these technologies and I had some sort of paper trail saying I've touched

these technologies Microsoft or Microsoft. Dang it, Lex. Fleeted pants. Pleated pants reached out. No, Netflix reached out and said, "Hey, like I see you've done RxJS, you know, we do a lot of it. You want to come and interview with us?" And, you know, I was always told that you should never reject a kind of like a handwritten personal invitation to interview. This was way before bots, and even the bots were pretty obvious to tell that were bots. This was a manager at uh Netflix, Jeff Wagner, first manager ever, and he just wrote a really

nice note and just like, "Hey, I see you're doing a lot of these things. We really need help with JavaScript. Um, I would love for you to come interview. We even using a lot of RxJS if you're interested in that." And so I was like, "All right, you know, I can come and I'll interview." And lo and behold, interview went on. And I called my wife I think halfway through the interview and I was just like defeated, absolutely crushed because I said, and she might remember this, but I said, "We now have to make a

decision. Are we actually going to move to California or not?" Cuz I already knew I had the job at that point. Like I just was just knocking them out of the park. I was doing a great job on that. And so I just knew for a fact I'm getting a job at Netflix. you know, all the there's this thing that people always get so freaked out about when it comes to interviews and all that. And I luckily somehow avoided this. I don't get test anxiety. I don't get any of that because when I go into

these situations, my only goal is to show the things I already know. And so it's like I walked into this situation, I've been preparing for this 80 hours a week for the last like 5 years. So just walk in and just I'm just showing the things I know. And it was perfectly fitting for Netflix at that time period in the 2013 early JavaScript days on television. And so it's just awesome. Just worked out perfectly. Got hired there. So where in California was Netflix? This is San Francisco. Loscatoos. So uh if you're familiar so classic uh

symbol people do which is this is San Francisco. Yep. Oakland San Jose. Los Gatos is just like a little bit Yep. kind of little bit below a little bit south of San Jose. Same mega contiguous city. Yellowstone is a Montana Yellowstone the show. Yeah. Yeah. With a Yeah. So is it is it basically like that Kevin C riding on a horse? Is it were you riding on a horse to to campus or No. No. But that I mean I love those stereotypes actually. I mean to be completely fair when I was 15 years old I

was driving around on what is now a very busy populated street shooting gophers out the window of our car with a 22. So, it's like Montana was a different place at one point than it is today. And there's plenty of parts of Montana that's still very rural, still kind of more of that old world. So, yeah, a little bit, you know, you can kind of get whatever you want from Montana. As far as like culturally goes, I'm not really sure the best way to put the difference between California and Montana. It's just different expectations. Like

one thing I can really appreciate about California or at least when I say California I mean the Silicon Valley cuz obviously LA and California and the Silicon Valley very different attitudes, very different mindsets. You can't really compare one to the other. One thing I can say that's really positive about the valley is that everybody is operating on this idea of like trying to build or create something and there's an energy to it that's like very exciting. like you meet somebody and they have a startup and they're working on the startup and it's very exciting and

you know there's a lot of negative aspects to that and we can all agree that our entire life being commercialized has probably not been that great but the kind of the experience of being there and everyone's excited to build something. It's a really cool experience. Yeah, it's great. It's really great. The excitement, the energy. Yeah, Montana doesn't have that. I I have an admiration a romantic admiration for like uh for the shows like Yellowstone being out in nature. It's beautiful. Yeah, I like uh riding. I Somebody also said Reddit is full of wisdom about you.

Uh some of it could be fake news, but something about horses and this kind of thing. Like you write you like horses. You like riding horses? We have horses on our up. Our neighbor had much more hilly land and one of their horses broke its leg so they had to put it down. Yeah. And so we just said, "Hey, we're on much flatter land. Like you can just have your horses in our property." And so we just have horses that run around on our What about milking cows? Somebody asked about cattle and and cow and

so I've only had open open cows. So if you don't cow means girl. Open means that hey they've tried to get the cow pregnant. The cow did not get pregnant first try. And so they're calling that gene. They're getting rid of that gene. The cow's going to now or the open cow's going to now go out to pasture. Pastor for the year and then get turned into delicious t-bone steaks and of various things. And so we would house open cows on our property. So, no, there's no milking of open cows, okay? They'd be very upset

if you tried to milk an open cow cuz they're not they're not milking cows, right? You have to get like that cow pregnant and then once you get it pregnant, you have to kind of put it into this permanent state of milking and all that. And it's a little bit more complicated than say what we did, which was just cows on eating grass and I didn't have to touch them. Okay. Well, that's wonderful. Reddit is not a great place for wisdom about me. They're going to give you the craziest answers. Uh, we will return to

Reddit time and time again, my friend. Uh, so yeah, you took the leap into Netflix. So, what was that like? It was, you know, this is one of those things where when you talk about it, people love to trivialize this cuz it's like, oh, you're taking a leap of faith by going into a fang company in like 2013 sounds super risky. Uh, my wife was 36 weeks pregnant. We had to travel to a place where we knew not a soul. We were about to have our first kid. We didn't even have a doctor. If you

don't know, having a baby does like kind of you kind of want a relationship with a doctor. There's like a whole thing that goes on there. So, it was kind of it was a really hard and great experience. So, I went to a job in which their culture deck. So, during this time, this is where Netflix still had like kind of that old generation X feel to it. Their culture deck was hire fast, firef, you know, it was it was very in-your-face about like, hey, this is how we operate. You don't meet the standards, we

kick you out. So, it's like I'm going I'm leaving a place where it's more secure to go to a place I don't know anybody to a job that's bold in its claims about firing everybody with a wife that's just about to have a baby. And so, it's like and I'm from Montana and you're born every Montana's born with a natural dislike of California. So, there's like all these things kind of flowing into it where it's just going to be like, wow, this is going to be this is a very intense experience. And it was hard

for sure. Like it wasn't just some easy simple experience that we were just like, "Oh, I work now at Fang." You know, we had to kind of work through that. Having a kid was very difficult. Our first kid was very difficult. You know, not having any family around to ever help you. Like, you know, took a a much larger toll on my wife than me, for sure. What was the uh technical learning curve for you? You showed up in your plaid pants like dressed up. Yeah. What was it? What What did you have to learn

about the stack? cuz Netflix I imagine is is a is this incredible infrastructure has to deliver just a huge amount of data. I'm just blown away by Netflix but also like YouTube these companies that have to deliver like serve a huge amount of like bits. Netflix has it easiest out of all the companies Netflix by. Even though we have, you could say maybe we have maybe we beat YouTube in view hours. I'm not sure if we do, but let's just pretend Netflix has 5x more view hours than than uh YouTube, whatever it is. Netflix has

a fundamentally easier problem than all other companies. And let's get back to that. I'm going first tell you about the stack, but I'll tell you why it has a fundamentally easier problem. So, when I first got there, they gave me my PlayStation 3. My boss said, "Go learn some code. Come back to me in a couple days and tell me what you've learned. Then I'm going to start giving you bugs to fix. Wait, wait. PlayStation 3? What are you talking about? Well, I was on the TV team. I had to go plug in a PlayStation

and start launching programs onto the PlayStation 3 and figure out how to work Netflix on a television device. Oh, so like you have different kinds of device. Why PlayStation 3s? Other different 2013 devices that plug into the T. Okay, cool. Yeah. Not many not as many TVs had Netflix, let alone what they called their Darwin app, which is their new application. So if you bought a Vizio earlier that year, you'd get their older one there. It's called Plus UI. You get their older version. And so not many had the newer version. We no longer supported

Plus or we never actively developed on Plus. We only did stuff on Darwin. And so I had to learn that whole stack. I the back end or the middle end uh the middle layer between the actual back end and the front end was written in Groovy. And as I went around, Groovy is uh if you're not familiar with Jenkins, then you've probably never interacted with Groovy. But Groovy's is a JVM language. It's a very interesting language. But here's how it got started at Netflix. Oh, it's Apache. Apache Groovy is a powerful object-oriented programming language that

runs on the Java virtual machine released in 2007. It has evolved to become a versatile language that combines both static and dynamic typing capabilities. All right, so the AI is kind of lying to you. Uh, Groovy is not a powerful great language. Nothing. That statement makes it seem way cooler than it actually is. You will meet one out of a hundred people that have touched Groovy that said, "Oh yeah, Groovy is great." Yeah. The other 99 will be like, "Heavens forbid you ever have to touch that language." So, uh, when I got there, nobody, not

a single soul at Netflix, there's 40ome engineers had any idea how Groovy pretty much worked. Somehow people just hacked together these scripts and put them all on there and it worked and it was all this was before there was a Groovy RX port. We wrote our own version called WX. It was a nightmare. Observables all these things. I remember one time they told me that oh yeah, you know, with RX it's really easy. You just say what you need to do. It maps out and boom boom boom boom everything will run multi thread and all

that. I was like oh wow really? So all I did was go like uh observable. sleep one cuz I just wanted to see it sleep and then do the next thing. And it turns out when a thread sleeps itself, no thread can wake it up. And I just turned off all of staging cuz I ran it like 10 times like, "Oh, it's not responding. Oh, it's not responding. Oh, now it's not even coming back." Broke all of staging for everybody. So no developer could work for the rest of the afternoon cuz I locked up all

the instances because it turns out no, it was in fact not multi-threaded. Every assumption we've been told is a lie. No one had any idea what they were doing. It was a wild time. And so I just simply naturally gravitated towards that because I'm good at print f debugging. I'm good at doing those things. So I was like here I'll just figure this out here. I will do this. So I had to rewrite how we do the data structure on the front end for the TV uh from what is called a lolo list of list

of movies into lolo which is a list of list of uh recommendation objects for a movie. Why would we need to do that? Think about this. You have two lists. One has live free dieh hard Bruce Willis because you love Bruce Willis. The other one has live free, die hard because you want tough men doing tough jobs. Well, during those days, we'd only have one way we could show evidence why you wanted it. So, we couldn't say, "Oh, because you liked this other movie." You'd go to that one and say the same thing. So, we

had to kind of add one level of indirection where we could decorate the recom or the video with the recommendation information. Okay. So, you can abstract away into the the space of recommendation versus the space of movies, right? Yeah. So, you can't hang it off the video because obviously then it would be the same for everything that shows that same video. So, that's amazing. I had to do all this and I wrote it in Groovy and I was the I just did it and people were like how did you how did you write this in

Groovy and it's just like well I read the language reference for a day and then programmed it well what do you mean it was a very radical language shall we say and so I just simply became the person that knew these things so they just give me more and more jobs at that and so that's kind of how I excelled being the person that was willing to do the thing that no one else was. Yeah. Can you actually speak to the print of debugging? like you you walk into a system and there's a lot of

systems in the world like this like uh Twitter was like this when you when uh when Elon acquired Twitter and it rolls in and there's this old janky code base that's just like a JMS and you have to basically do print of debugging like what's the process of going into a codebase and figuring out like what the fuck how does this work what are the flaws what are the assumptions you have to like reverse engineer what all these other engineers did in the past and the mess across you know the space of months and years

and you have to figure out how all that works in order to make improvements. The thing the reason why I've always just been good at print debugging because one of my first kind of side quest jobs that I got was writing robots for the government when I was still at school. And so I'd kind of do this contractually for so many hours um so many hours a week. And my boss, Hunter Lloyd, great professor by the way, he just said, "Hey, here's your computer. Here's the robot. Here's how you plug it in. Here's how you

run the code. Can you write the flash driver, the Ethernet driver? Can you write the planetary pancake motor? Here's some manuals. Um, I'm missing some. Just figure it out. I'll be back. So, that was government work for me. So, I was like, "Okay, I'll figure all these things out." And I figured them all out. And the only way to really get anything out of the machine, uh, was to print. And so, it's like I had to become really good at printing my way through problems. And so, that kind of became this like skill I guess

I adopted is that I can just kind of print after debug my way through a lot of these problems. Obviously, I'm not a game developer. Probably a different world probably should use. I think John Carmarmac was on here and talked how great the debugger is. Different world. Cuz when I was at Netflix, there's machines that exist somewhere where on AWS I'm not logged into them. I don't even know how to log into them. I'm not even sure if I have credentials to log into them. They run once somewhere and I have to figure out what

happened and why it's happening. So, it's like I'm going to become this is like this is what I've trained for. I'm a print f bugging champion. So, it's just like I could just run through these things really quickly and figure out why they're happening the way they're happening. You're a special human. I think that's an incredible skill set to have to be able to drop in into any code base, drop into any situation and do print out debugging, meaning like, you know, you're in a dark room and you're feeling around that room to try to

figure out what the room is. Well, I had the code so it's like I can kind of blueprint what's happening. Like I don't understand the services or anything that's h but like you can start guessing pretty quick as to what's going wrong, right? But then the the print side of that helps you u confirm your intuitions, test your intuitions and build up more and more information and then you start to accumulate like this bigger picture from that what the edge cases are that uh that break the system and not I mean I I think that

just that kind of space like that kind of situation is um intimidating for a lot of engineers like they break down at that point. I think this really is a powerful thing to be able to come into a codebase that's generally a skill set of like uh very few of us start from scratch. Yeah. And actually this is the fundamental problem of web development and in general where they're like uh I don't know what's going on. I'm going to write my own thing from scratch, right? as opposed to like actually doing printive debugging on the

on the space of languages on the space of problems because there's a lot of wisdom and solved problems already in this codebase. It's a much more important skill set to understand to learn from the mistakes and the wisdom of the past of the ancestors that came before and build on them as opposed to throw it all out and start from scratch. This is something obviously you see a lot with a JavaScript framework that comes out a new one every single day. So I have a very great story about that that this is what like I

think has shaped me the most about my perspective of other devs. There's this dev and he always just wrote things in just what I thought was such a bizarre and weird way. And it was this had to do with Falor, so our data fetching um library for Netflix. This would run on mobile so I had to write in Objective C. It had to run on television and it had to also run on web. So it ran on everything and it me and one other person were responsible for this thing working and the request side where

we'd had to ddupe the information that we already have the requests that were pending and the new data. So I had to figure all that out based on what someone's requesting and then just only optimal optimally request the stuff that we don't have. He wrote it in such a goofy way and I'm thinking, man, this guy's just what a goofball. So I delete it all and I start writing it. I'm like look at how much nicer this is. It's looking so good. I'm like, "Oo, there's that one edge case." Uh, okay. I can see why

he wrote it this one way. That's not a big deal, though. The rest of my code is really great. By the end of it, I'm like, I literally almost line for line just reproduced what he already wrote. It's like slightly different towards my style, but I just wrote the same code. And I'm like, I'm an idiot. I am the idiot in this situation because it was already a solved problem. I just didn't take the time to learn what he did. Instead, I relearned what he did by rewriting the entire thing. I think that's a skill

set that is extremely important for people to learn. I see that in myself that's a constant struggle for myself. I when uh facing a codebase for example, but this applies generally in life where somebody did a lot of work to do a thing, you should invest a huge amount of time and get really good at figuring out what they did, why they did it. Do a lot of print out debugging to understand what they did. It's a much more efficient way to understand a problem deeply than to start from scratch. Even though there's a constant

temptation to start from scratch because starting from scratch is fun. You do get to puzzle solving all that kind of stuff, it's just not going to be the right thing to do. Usually pain is the right thing to do and it is for most people painful to understand other people's code bases. I highly recommend starting from scratch if you want to understand a concept. You don't know how an HTTP server works. Create a TCP socket. Learn how to parse HTTP. It'll become very easy and you'll go, "This is the reason why whenever I get a

request, I have to await the text. I now understand why the text is for whatever reason not there. I get it. I now understand it." And so, you kind of gain these new perspectives just by simply parsing something out. All right. Back to uh the wisdom of Reddit. Apparently there there are memes and legends about your uh programming arc in Netflix. Uh this Falcore system you mentioned somebody I think it was uh Tee. How do you pronounce his name by the way? Teach. Tee. Okay. Tee. It's TJ would be his name, but we call him

T or Telescopic Johnson. Oh wow. So many names. You know DDoS distributed denial of service attacks. You apparently were able to accomplish the simplified version of that of just DOSs. Uh that's a legend. So you basically broke down the system somehow. Yeah. Yeah. So can you tell the story of that? I'd be glad to. So this Felcore So there's this Falcore business, right? And I kind of I a I did discover the bug before anybody else and I did report it to security and and it it was so bad it actually got its own name,

Repulsive Grizzly Attack. Yeah. And they even give examples of how to do it. Effectively, what it means is that there is a request that targets both memory and CPU and will destroy. There you go. Look that how Netflix the next one down was the article that was actually written. Um I don't get mentioned which is a little bit upsetting considering I was the one that discovered it and told everybody how bad it was. Uh anyways, and had to write the fix for it or the first fix. So this is how it works is that it

you can do something pretty similar I believe with GraphQL as well. It has the same kind of danger. Any of these kind of RPC request as much or as little of the data as you would like frameworks are vulnerable to this kind of attack. So with Falor what you do is you could you give it an array. This an array is called a path and that's the path to the data. But sometimes you don't want just like you don't want to have to write out I want movie I want row z or list z or

row z column z title I want you know row 0 column 0 description I want you know you don't want to have to write out all that. So instead you could just be like I want um I want rows 0 through 10 columns 0 through 10 titles and descriptions. So you can write in a very compact nice little format and it'll give you all that data. It'll go to the server. The server will fill that all in and give it to you. Oh, dang it. List three, it only had three videos in it. So, what

happens when I try to re-request the data? Well, I need a way to be able to tell my system that you have requested the data and there's nothing there. So, this is called like a they call this like a boxed value. So, it's going to be like type uh something value. There's nothing there. We've already requested it and there's nothing there. They call, you know, it's like a sentinel value, if you will, a boxed value. And we have this little special flag we'd pass called materialize. Meaning that when you ask for a path, we will

make sure we fill it out so we don't accidentally erase anything. And at the very end, we'll say, "Okay, the thing does the request you've made has already been made and there's nothing there." Well, what happens if I request rows 0 through 10,000, columns through 10,000, one more item through 10,000, and then a whole bunch of properties, and then ask it to materialize? Well, I'm about to go create billions of objects in the JVM and what happens to the machine? It stops running. And then if we try to JSON, even if it could create them

all, we then ask it to JSON serialize. It's not going to do it, right? Like it's impossible. And so that was the attack vector is a simple while loop would have taken down and held down Netflix for a very long time because one request would kill one machine on AWS. And so that means it would just turn it all off. And this was on the website, this was on um TV, this was on mobile. Like this was profound. And here's the worst part. It was in production for years. So we couldn't even roll it back.

There was no like, oh crap, let's just roll back to 2 weeks ago and we'll kind of fix forward and figure out. No, it's like we could roll back to 2011. Like that's our option is 2011 and that's it. So we had to figure out a way forward and all that. And so it's like the amount of problems that would have happened if ne if someone would have discovered this is is unstable. Ju just to be clear the infrastructure that's serving the videos would shut down. Yeah. The UI like you couldn't perform any actions in

the UI. You surprisingly could still stream video but you would never be able to get to a video to stream cuz every action you would take would be completely shut down. And so it wasn't a DDoS because you didn't need a bunch of computers to try to overwhelm the system by making a bunch of requests. One request, one machine. If we had 50 machines serving the millions of requests, it only take 50 requests to shut down the entire UI. Isn't it possible to do DOSs or DOS on basically any software system? Like defending against all

the, you know, closing all those attack vectors is probably really difficult. If you take any soft sufficiently complicated software system, there's probably so many ways to overwhelm it. Yeah, it's ext I mean this is why people use Cloudflare. I think DHH said it best, which is like we have our website and we have a strong bodyguard on the outside. So, Cloudflare has a bunch of utilities all built in cuz, you know, obviously this is why everyone hates all these Bluetooth devices that connect to the internet because they just turn into attack vectors where people use

those to do DOSs or DDoS other sites. And so, you don't need something sophisticated. You just need a bunch of requests to come in and you can take down websites. And so, that's why these fronts are really good at kind of discovering where these problems are. But, DOSs is a bit different because it doesn't have to be overwhelming by using resources with a whole bunch of requests. It really just means simply that there's a denial of service attack. One of them could be there's a reax attack that existed where um Cloudflare actually did it to

itself and shut itself down which is there's a reax expansion attack where given the right kind of reax if you know someone's running a specific reax you can actually provide input that is maximally bad and that thing goes to like super processing. It takes 10 seconds to process a single request. Then you only need to make hundreds of requests and you shut down the whole service. It's not like you need some giant machinery to make one trillion requests. You only need just some small amount to completely destroy a service. And so there's the web is

an extremely difficult place to to do it correct. This is super fascinating. I I do also wonder how many ultra competent uh what is it? Black hat hackers there are versus sort of the good guys versus the bad guys. how many bad guys there are and what is the average what is the distribution of skill set on the bad guy side that are constantly trying to attack. I assume there's probably a huge number of just really simple ones. Script kitties, right? Just people trying to just do things. And then there's a huge amount of like

social engineering that just goes in where hacking is done not with a computer but just by you know one of the classic ones Kevin Mitnick had this one in his book which was you'd call up somebody pretending to be like Charlene we're uh doing some auditing and uh I think your PIN's out of date on file is it 2323 still and they're like no it's 4747 you're like a thanks Sharon you know boom you just hacked them right like the classic people love correcting bad information this is like a standard So like there's all these

ways people hack and so my assumption is that there are really great white hat hackers, there's really great black hat hackers, but the vulnerability space the hard the thing is is that discovering a vulnerability and you don't let anyone know the white hat hacker still has to make that same discovery. Yeah. And that's where I think the real thing is is that black hat hacking in some sense has a fundamentally easier job or at least a job in which they can take advantage of for much longer periods of time. One's the process of discovering who's

breaking the system. The other one's trying to figure out how to break the system. And it seems like most software is held together by toothpicks and glue and there is a lot of dangers in every piece. And also the the social engineering aspect that's a real attack vector. I think that's the attack factor that will do in the long term the most damage in the world. Um especially as AI tooling becomes easier and easier to convince people at scale sort of do that kind of gram email grandma. I think that's a really serious attack vector

like human psychology and all that. I I kind of assume whenever there's a girl that approaches me it's kind of some kind of social engineering project. Some attack vector some some a intelligence agency. In fact, I'm pretty sure we're back to a beautiful mind, aren't we? beautiful mind. Yeah, I have a whiteboard upstairs that I calculate everything, everybody's trajectory and move. You're you're not wrong though with the attack vector, especially in the day of AI. Like one thing that I don't think a lot of people are talking about as we integrate more and more AI

is that prompt injection is like an extremely hard thing to defend against because it's not really clear how you defend against it. If it's just a, you know, at the end of the day, word calculator make word come out. If you can figure out the proper word calculator input, it might just break its b bounds and start doing something it's not supposed to do. And there's a whole future where there's all these products that are going to be vulnerable to things they never thought about. Like you, it's one thing where you forget an edge case

while you're programming. Now you have to guess what people might be able to think of making something that has access to a system be able to do, right? And you don't have a way to reason about it. Its reasoning came from Reddit and other words that it's read and how to put things together. Like this is a very it's a massive space that's going to be happening. It's why I'm personally thinking don't give too many powers yet. Like we don't know the attacks that are about to happen. Uh yeah, the more power we give to

software systems, the more damage they can do. That certainly is the case. But the more awesome they could do and that's um the knife's edge that we all walk along as a human civilization together hand in hand. Will we flourish or destroy ourselves? Question mark. Uh, folks on Reddit, the good folks on Reddit demanded that I ask you about the time you broke production. Is this related to Falor? Did you break production? Is this I broken production quite a few times. I've broken productions for so many stupid reasons. One time I broke production because I

came up in the PHP and PHP static means static for the lifetime of the PHP and PHP was the lifetime of every request, right? That's why PHP was so inefficient was that every request was its own like instance and therefore static memory was for the lifetime. I guess I never put that together. And so I had some objects that I made static because I was like, "Oh, I just need this for the lifetime of the request." And lo and behold, those weren't lifetime. A whole bunch of bad data got all over the place. People were

showing up saying they were from all these different countries and everything was all wrong cuz I just whoopsy daisies. I just made a whole conundrum with that. So that was one time I did it. Another time is I took down if you were on the homepage on the website waiting for Lady Gaga's video to come out and you were watching the countdown go down. If it reached zero, the billboard would freeze and it wouldn't work. If you refreshed it would work. But the reveal the big reveal. I screwed that up and my boss got real

upset and so did other people in Hollywood got upset about that one. That was like a my bad. Sorry, Jeff Wagner again. I remember that one. I remember that one specifically. One time I released a bug where again on the billboard if you pressed add to my list I accidentally programmed in an infinite loop and it just your whole web page would just freeze. Are some are some of these bugs difficult to discover until you start? That one seems really easy looking back at it. Loop. Yeah. And there was we actually during those days we

had manual QA that are supposed to go through everything. So, I didn't feel as bad because my manual QA counterpart also missed it. Like, we all missed it. But it was just so simple. You just press that button, boom, it just completely freezes the website. Polluting the code with sort of global variables that are holding values uh as PHP I think allows you to do. That's a tricky one to discover cuz you rely on it, but then there could be somebody else assigns a value to it. Data races everywhere. And I just didn't understand like

in my head static was like oh this is for the life like I was just so locked into the PHP world at that time that I just made a just such a like looking back on it it's so obvious but during the time it was it's hard. So in general pushing to production I talked to Peter levels about this. He I mean obviously he's operating as a mostly a solo developer but he often on the websites that thousands not hundreds of thousands of people use he he often ships to production uh pushes to production meaning

like just no testing just like push to fix. Uh what are the pros and cons of that approach in general to you? What do you think? It's obviously much easier the smaller your organization is. I think everyone I think no one would argue that that sentiment. If it's just you working on a singular project, it is obviously much easier for you to push directly to production because you are the only one working. You know all the ins and outs and if something were to break, you would discover it. So to me that makes sense. Like

I think the way he operates is perfect for what he does. you couldn't take what he does and move it to say Microsoft or Netflix or Google because that would obviously it would just be a disaster just due to the amount of people all pushing to production. And so I I mean I personally love that. I think that you have to you have to gauge both the application you're building and its complexity and what you're pushing and how many people are working on it. I think those all go into how you can kind of do

that cuz not all applications are created equal either. Like that application I was making with zooming and scrolling where we had all of our own everything. It was a very deep log like heavy logic app and that was regardless of what was happening on the website. most the code was library code and that becomes way harder if you don't have a good test suite and stuff to kind of run before you push it out because when you squeeze that ball you know different things uh come popping out in different areas and that's like that's very

that's a very harder problem than say if you're doing more of like a heavy visual one because a heavy visual one you're you're affecting just this one area's visual stuff and you can test it and like that's normally the end of it whereas you know so it depends on like the coupling and everything. So, I I mean, I love his approach, by the way. I I have such mad respect for anyone that operates that way because it I think is a great way. It just is so good because it kind of breaks this notion that

tech Twitter has that, oh, you have to use all these expensive services. You need to use all these kind of things because if you don't use all this kind of stuff, if you're not using the latest version of React, if you're not using the latest version of this, you're going to simply, you know, you're simply not going to make it as a startup. It's impossible. And it's just like, no, no, that's not software. Like, most of software isn't the new stuff. Most of software is old crappy software that someone has to maintain and it actually

is really really great and has lots of really hard problems and if you look at it differently it's actually fantastic. For people who don't know his tech stack in terms of web development is PHP, jQuery and SQLite. Yeah, all great stuff. I'm just surprised he still uses jQuery just given the fact that at this point on the modern web everything is I mean you have document query selector and add event listener click, right? It pretty much has everything you already need. It had DOM content loaded. Like all the reasons I used jQuery back in the

day was adding a click on a on a button was like hard. You had the deal with IE7, IE8, IE9, right? Like those are hard differences. Whereas now it's just so easy. I'm just surprised it's even that. I mean, that's definitely a trade-off. I I have I still use the exact same stack PHP, jQuery, uh, and different flavors of, uh, SQL. But the question there is, you know, you keep using jQuery because you can get the job done really fast and there's no significant performance hit that that you detect. So like why switch to something

else? But it's always probably as we'll talk about good to explore and to learn. Not all tools are great at solving all problems. And so what you think is really like the problem is is you run into this kind of trade-off which is you have some tool belt that you're very adept with. You know all the ins and outs. There's no unknown unknowns. But there's no surprises in this. You know what you're building. You know what you're getting into. You will go through and um you will be able to solve the problem. But if you

ever use a different language or a different experience, you can find that some things are able to represent states way easier in a way more efficient way and you can solve problems really efficiently in some versus the other. And so it's like if you don't take the time to explore as well, you could be missing out on something that makes you twice as good on this one specific problem like subset. And so I kind of value being able to look at all problems. And so I don't want to get stuck on one thing though I

see why people do which is for the efficiency sake. Let's just return to the infrastructure of the platform of Netflix and speak more generally Netflix, Twitch, YouTube. Like anytime I use any of these services, I'm just blown away by the the infrastructure it takes to deliver this service. YouTube and Twitch are unique versus Netflix where the creators can roll in themselves and upload stuff. Yeah. So on the consumption side, YouTube has over 100 billion views a day, over 1 billion hours watch time, but on the sort of creator side, 1 million hours of videos are

uploaded every day. 1 million hours. It's like you have to do you have to service both and you have to deliver everything. It's incredible to me. Uh can you maybe speak to your own intuition just zooming out on it? what it takes to deliver that kind of infrastructure. For me, the thing that I I find vastly complicated and I can't imagine the engineering hours is how do you even create an edge in that situation. And what I mean by an edge, I mean like when people say this phrase, if if you're unexperienced, an edge is

where you deliver data to be you want that edge to be as close to the customer as possible because that's where the data lives and then the communication between the customer and what you're doing is really really small. Obviously, the speed of light adds up, the amount of hops adds up, the amount of services that you have to remotely call adds up. They all add up and they all add inefficiencies to the system. So, something like YouTube, they want to be able to serve that data as quick as possible. But their data changes constantly and

relevance is almost directly tied with the newness of the item. So, it's like, how do you even cash these things out? How are you doing this? So, they must have such an incredible caching network that I can't even I can't even fathom what it takes to do that. That just to me it's just so impressive. A million view hours in how many different uh resolutions with how much data? What is a million view hours? Is it 4K million view hours along with 1080p along with 720p along with 1440p? Like that number is an insane number.

Actually, it is brilliant what you said, which is for YouTube often the new thing is extremely important to show to everybody and so you can't rely on caching or or trivial kind of caching. You have to like deliver the new thing as quickly as possible. Yeah. I mean, it's incredible. So there's the entire system, the the recommendation system that knows each individual human watching YouTube and it has to integrate into that the new thing while also caching this incredible cluster of possible videos that you're potentially interested in. So and integrate into that ads, right? In

the case of YouTube and Twitch and so on, it's a really tough problem because you have to think like what is the cash hit rate on this because there's so because the problem now actually comes down to space. Like space actually becomes a real problem. like how many hundreds of pabytes do they have that they have to like okay what do we cache and where do we cache this right like the number I mean I think in the terms of like gigabytes or maybe megabytes like they have to think in in probably versions of bytes

I don't even know the name for right like it's like such a different problem and that's why I said Netflix Netflix has a much easier job when it comes to caching so if you've never looked it up it's called OCA and that we know what videos we're releasing we know what videos are hot in specific speific areas. It's a very limited set. We're not going to all of a sudden get oopsies, we got a million new view hours, right? We don't even have to worry about that as a problem. Instead, it's like, okay, we know

Stranger Things season 5 is about to drop. We're going to pre-cash Str Stranger Things season 5 in every single OCA across the world because that thing's about to get hammered, right? And so, it's like it's able to do such a different kind of decision-m than what you have to do with something like YouTube. And and then Twitch is even more wild because now you're actually ingesting video and trying to make it go out all at the exact same time for all video. And you have to transform that video from whatever format and whatever the bit

rate is into something that's more efficient in the system like that. Hats off to Twitch engineering. Like cuz that is like some that's some serious work. And here's some asshole Lex coming out and tweeting about YouTube features. So like there's a I listen you're not wrong on the features you ask for though. Uh I think there's this is this is an engineering problem of how do you allow fast iteration and addition of features that shouldn't have to be integrated or impact the whole codebase. So at the edges of the codebase sort of improve on certain

features without like having to consult the mothership uh of the code. It's the large team, right? That's that's the fundamental problem. When you get into YouTube size, there is the team/organization that deals with data warehousing. There's the team/organization that deals with delivery. There's a team/organization that's like the middle layer. how you even you know they're going to be like the little microsurfaces to talk to these places. Then you have this front end engine. So like for for a small feature you have to get middle team you have to get backend team you have to get

all these things. Quick example Netflix um are you familiar with uh the dystopian Black Mirror. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Season 1 episode one. Do you know season 1 episode one? Everyone who watches Black Mirror typically knows this episode. Okay. Yeah. I don't remember what it is. Forgive my language but they call it the pig fucker episode. Oh yeah. Of course, once you've seen the episode, you will then know this episode. Well, when Netflix adopted it, I got pulled into a room. There's like a VP, a VP, a product designer, a VP, and they said, "Hey, we're

about to release our own version of Black Mirror season uh season 3, I think, at that time. We need episode 1, season 1 to not be the first thing people see. So, let's just reverse the season order." That required me I had like 20 engineers I had to gather together to be able to have this happen. And that's just the problem of big companies is that eventually every little thing has to become its own team. And so even small there's no such thing as a small feature. Reversing the order of the drop down that selects

the seasons is a meeting with a bunch of VPs and engineers. That's really interesting. I there's got to be a way to accelerate that. The natural scaling of a company and the bureaucracy that grows. Yes. Slows that down. But just having seen Elon work a lot, his teams are able to like still keep it very fast even as the company grows. There's got to be like a process to doing that, especially for uh yeah, for the Pig Fucker episode. Like uh I don't know where that in the priority list, but like for important things like

that, you should be able to do that quickly. I don't know. Can you speak to like how would you do that? Well, I can tell first how it was done. Remember, so at a place like Netflix, there would be I think that at that point is called a product called Dexter. I can't remember. There's our actual like movie metadata warehouse that's going to be highly integrated with Hollywood that's going to be, you know, where that side is able to manage all that. So, I'm like, hey, you need the ability to mark things that need to

be reversed because we're going to run into this a bunch. And we did. We ran into quite a few topical shows that all need to be reversed and all that. And so it's like we need to be able to reverse episode numbers, season numbers. We need to be able to hide season or episode numbers. Like in the case of the Chelsea Handler show, it was like a daily show. So it's like you don't you don't need episode numbers. You just need the latest one. And so like there's this whole problem that exists. And so it's

like okay, you need to work on that for your UI over there. Then you need to be able to store that data. Then we need to be able to go to the like the people that can actually get the video data out of that and provide it to our our uh our service layer. I need to go talk to them and convince them they need to be able to give me the new methods and everything to do that. Then I need to be able to go write the methods to get it down. And then I

need to go to the UI and make that accessible. Now I need to go to website people. I need to go to the mobile people. I need to go to the TV people. And so it's like you can see this thing like snowballing. And for us, the big thing that Netflix did that was so well is after I met with these people that were high level, I was the c I was the captain. I'm the captain now. Yeah. So I went to all these teams and said, "Hey, manager, I need I need an engineer. we

need to get this done within the next couple months cuz we got Black Mirror coming out. So she would go, "Okay, here you go. The map team, I need someone to help me with being able to get data out of the LMO for this." And so it's like, "All right, you're working with this engineer." I'd go to the VMS team. Okay, I need this engineer. I'd go to the billboard team. I need this engineer. I go to all these little places to get all these little pieces of data. And then I was the captain. So

I was like, "You're working on this. You're doing this. You're doing this. You're doing this. I'm doing this. Let's go." Right? And and so it's like that worked and we were able to go pretty fast for a big company and the fact that it required like 20 engineers to do such a simple task. We were able to do it in like gosh I'd say about like 3 weeks worth of effort but that was still I thought that was amazing comparatively to how many people moved. Well because you have the freedom of the agency to do

it. You said the captain of the ship that's really powerful for big companies that's a risk cuz you can fuck it up. you might not see the bigger context u legally or any and so the bigger context of the impact on the industry or all the contracts that are made all that. So, it's a risk. It's a risk. But it's a risk you have to keep taking. And then if when you fuck up, you fix and then maybe pay the cost legally for that, whatever. But the long term that risk pays off because you're going

to keep creating a better and better product, evolving where the industry is going, constantly innovating ahead of where the industry is going and so on. Yeah. Yeah. And not only that, I think one thing that is just so important is that yes, the product will get better, but the people that you hire and the people that you keep around are better because they're the ones that show maturity. They're the ones that can just you give them something and they can rally the troops and make something happen. Like that's a very great group of people to

hire. And so you also naturally select out great engineers that aren't just simply good at coding. They're good at coding and they're good at explaining and they're good at convincing and they're good, you know, like you have to you have to create a very lean audience that can move fast. And I think for great engineers having to wait for like okay let's schedule a meeting for next Wednesday with the with the VPs and that destroys their soul and they either don't want to contribute anymore they leave the companies or they just kind of tune out

and take the golden handcuffs and just you know buy a nice house and focus on the family and I feel like I would die under that like honestly like that is that is my death sentence is where it's just that there's no reason to try. There's no reason to do anything. I'm just going to go in there like effectively zombie through my day and call it like I don't want to live like that. I want to feel like I'm trying to do something. Uh I should also mention on top of that, so you've brilliantly laid

out how incredible the challenge that Netflix has to solve. On top of that with YouTube, you know, the metadata thing because users are able to upload video and there's an API where they can upload automatically and change all this kind of stuff automatically. Every one of those things is an attack vector as we mentioned. That's something they have to consider seriously on the engineering side and on the sort of the legal side. They can get into trouble in all kinds of ways. So they have to consider all of that. That's just yes fascinating. The legal

side is obvious, but it's not really like I would never have initially thought someone would say upload images that you're not allowed to own or have, but that guarantee you that happens. Then you have the whole kid side, right? Like think about when you mark something as kid-friendly. How many times have they snuck porn into a Taylor Swift video or whatever it was. That was like a few years back. There was that whole Taylor Swift or whatever. I forget what it was. I thought it was Taylor Swift, but there'd be these mock videos that come

up and then boom. It's like that's a that is such an awful problem and I'm so happy that is not a problem I have to try to figure out. Yep. Okay. So, yes, YouTube and uh and Twitch and Netflix are doing an incredible job. You eventually uh chose the madman you are to leave Netflix and to start on the new journey of being a Wolfpack of one, start streaming. What was that? What was the story of that? So, I was streaming for almost seven years now. It started actually at Netflix. We did a charity, uh,

Extra Life. Shout out Extra Life for starting my streaming career. Effectively, it's just you stream and whatever money you raise, it goes to Kids with Cancer Research. They are a great charity in the sense that they take no overhead and they raise their own donations for their website and everything. And so, it's like a very great straightforward charity. Really love like what they've done. Um, it was super cool because I live in South Dakota now, but I actually could choose a hospital directly where the money goes to. So, there's like a direct impact from A

to B. So, it's like it's a pretty cool organization. And so, my friend Guy Sereno, uh, nice try guy is what I like to call him. He was probably the single greatest engineer I've ever met in my lifetime. And he was just like, "Hey, come do this. We're going to all do this." And so, I played Fortnite. And so, before I did that, I was like, "I better learn how to stream first. I better get, you know, affiliated so I can like take subscriptions and then if anyone gives me a subscription, I'll also pay that

forward. And so June 2018 or something like that. I start I start uh streaming and I start streaming some Fortnite, end up getting affiliated, end up doing the whole Extra Life thing. I end up really enjoying it. I'm like, this is a lot of fun. I'm playing Fortnite at that point, okay? So, mind you, I'm a Fortnite streamer at that point. Uh, and I start really enjoying it and I keep doing it. And then one day I decide I'm going to do some programming because I really love Vim and I think I'm kind of fast

at Vim and maybe people think programming is kind of cool cuz there was no really programming section at that point. Uh and I did it and uh I had like 30 people show up which was just like and it felt like incredible numbers at that point. So I was like oh my gosh there's like 30 people watching me program. And so it just kept on going and it kept on happening and it just kept on growing and I did it for year after year. I would do my job. I would come home. I'd eat dinner

with the kiddos. I would read them Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. During that time, I'd read to them for a half an hour. Then I'd set that down. And then three nights a week, I would program until like 2:00 in the morning or play video games until 2:00 in the morning streaming and building up this like whole side thing. And I did this for a long, long time. And then eventually it just kept working out so well. And I started making YouTube videos. And then that started getting better. And it was just like

a long long grind until April of last year. I went to the streamer awards and I got to like announce the programming category and Pirate Software won. It was awesome. It was a great time. And during that time he gave me a challenge coin and just said like you just got to go for it. Just go full-time. And so I just sat there and my wife can attest to it. It was kind of like an emotional uh turmoil thing and it just took a lot of it was it was pretty awful, you know, cuz I

I didn't Netflix is very safe option. It was both very fun. It was challenging. I liked a lot of the people I worked with. It was overall a really great thing. I had a really great boss. Um really appreciated him. I still every text him now and then he's really great guy. So it's just like I'm leaving all these things for something that's unsure. And the reality is is that streaming and all these things, you know, people love you one day, they could hate you the next day. There's like all this stuff that goes into

being on the public side. And I had Netflix as the backing. So it's like if public hated me the next day, I'd be like, "Duces, I'm out." Like I don't care. Now it's like now I'm going to do this as a job. And so there's like a whole huge turmoil to this whole thing that kind of went through it. And eventually I just said, "Okay, I'm going to make this." It kind of it resonated with me when I first made the decision to join Netflix. I'm getting older. There's not a lot of chances to do

something unusual like that. Those chances go down constantly as you get older. This might be the last crazy thing I get to do. Let's just try it. So, in April, I went full-time and I have I guess I haven't looked back. I'm only not even a year into doing this uh as a full-time gig and it's just been a lot of fun. And the biggest thing is just being, you know, just being able to really explore and do these things on stream where people really enjoy watching and engaging has just been it's been a great

hard fun amazing difficult experience. I mean, it's a really inspiring leap. It's a really hard one to to take for many reasons like you outlined, but also like the loneliness of it. I think I think it's a pretty lonely pursuit. Yeah, just you and the camera and the audience and the ups and downs of that and it's not there's not really a team. I do have one lucky thing I'd say that my editor Flip shout out Flip. He was he said it would mean the world to him if I said shout out Flip but I

love you Flip. I love you. I love you. Oh man, he uh he had you know as he would say he had nothing going for him. He he had a really hard growing up. a lot of lot of rough life decisions have gone into his life and he's kind of crawling back out of it and he just said hey I will edit full-time for you. So, I just said, "All right, like 50/50. Whatever I make on YouTube, you get. We're going to do this together." And we did that for years, making zero dollars a month

pretty much, you know? And so, it's just like that was an incredible jump. And now, like, we get to work together. So, that I do get that one team aspect that I think is really nice. But there's it's not like it was at Netflix where I could hear about stuff people are building. I don't have a team. I don't have like product or cycles. I don't have a manager that I have to try to make happy. It's just like it is very lonely and I don't think a lot of people realize how lonely it actually

can be. Yeah. So, combine that loneliness with uh in my case I don't know how many people attack you. I've you know I have a shockingly low amount of attack rate I feel like. Yeah. You're people generally I mean it's sometimes fun sort of teasing that kind of thing but it's mostly just really I mean you you give so much love to the world and inspire so many people even when you're like making fun of stuff. Yeah, but with with me sort of taking the loneliness of it combined with just really intense attacks, it's tough.

It's can be rough psychologically really a tough journey. Uh you miss working with a team just from even a software engineering side like where you can share code or talk over code or yeah the the collaborative aspect of it. Yeah. Um multiple things there. Uh one hey we love you Lex. So, don't let the don't let the things get you down. Um, thank you. But thank you. I love you, too. Thank you. Hey, little little bonding moment you're going on. But, uh, you know what I one thing I really miss. Not in a sexual way,

just to be clear. The tension is a little tensive. I'm getting uncomfortable. Yeah. Anyway, team, um, it's just the one thing I really miss is just even when I hated how people did it, just seeing how other people solved things, right? Like it's really amazing just just like the raw creative power so many people have and just being like oh wow like I would have never done it this way. Crazy, right? Like wow I just this is awesome. And you kind of internally process this and you're like oh I now have a new little tool

in my tool belt. You know because at some point it's really hard to find a mentor when you're first young and you're just starting out programming. I mean, anyone with a couple years of experience will be not just a little bit better than you, but like infinitely better than you. It's like it feels like crazy how much better people are. And so, you have to like get mentors and you learn from people. And then as you get better, that amount of availability gets really small. And so, it's something I really do miss is the kind

of like forced hard problem solving together. I I think there's also a skill to sort of mining the wisdom from other people. Like I generally try to approach even like junior people young folks just mentally, at least for me, it works as a hack to assume they're like the smartest person in the world, like way smarter than me. And so like I take every single word they say as potential wisdom and that helps me sort of mind for potential wisdom there. Uh cuz it's so easy as you get older to sort of judge to be

like, "Oh yeah, okay, okay, I've been through that. I remember feeling like that. I remember thinking that. That's incorrect." Whatever. But just kind of assume that you don't know that I don't know what the fuck I'm doing and the other person is this like sage and from that in that kind of interaction I think you could actually learn a lot and my favorite interactions is when we both think that way. So we're that that from there I think that's that's a catalyst for a great great collaboration and interaction. It just also makes everything much nicer.

You know, it's really it really stinks to work with someone that's combative and negative. Like I don't mind combiveness if it's like I'm trying to figure out what's like what's best to do right now versus combiveness just because you're a negative person and things have to be this one particular way cuz if they're not this one particular way it's the end of the world and like that's actually really hard for me to work with. What's the origin story of uh the primogen name? The origin story of the Prime name was, are you familiar with a

video game called Turok? Nintendo 64. So, Tur Rock had Tur Rock one and then Turok 2. Turok 2 was a brutally hard game. This is back when first person shooters, they would only give you a certain amount of health and you had to go discover health and get that health and you had to beat the whole game without effectively dying. That's an old That's like the first version right there. That's like Tur Rock one, then Tur Rock 2. Turok is a renowned first-person shooter video game series featuring dinosaurs, action, and sci-fi elements. The franchise has

evolved significantly since its inception in 1997. Yeah, there you go. So, in 1998, there you can see it right there. Tu Seed of Evil followed in 1998, featuring larger levels, more challenging puzzles, and deadlier enemies. The notable difficulty, it was very, very, very difficult. Okay. And so I spent when I got it, it came in a black cartridge, not like your standard gray Nintendo 64. It's a black cartridge. It was a badass game, right? And I got it and I put it in and I played and I played every day for like 10 hours a

day for a month straight and I beat it and it was like such an incredible great experience. And the last leader of Tro 2 is called the primogen. And so when I was a kid, when you're in like fifth grade, that's like super cool like named after the bad guy. And so like for a long time on any internet thing like Grail online that I mentioned earlier then was the prime it was great and then you know I became an adult eventually and it's just like okay you know I'm an adult my name is Michael

Pson you know that's what I was on the internet for a long time was that and I remember it was like 2017 2018 somewhere in there um I remember just how bad the tech world had kind of become. It was just like this super pretentious place. Tons of dick measuring. Just everything that just was the worst. Uh Ken Wheeler got cancelled over playing the circle game. It was just like it it's so hard to describe to people that weren't there, but it was just the worst place to be. Tech was extremely unfun. It was extremely

awful. Everything was just so It wasn't academic because it was research. It was like, "We're building the most sophisticated things and this is for the smart people and you everyone else is the dumb people. Don't worry, we'll design for you, dummy. We got the we'll we'll show you how to make the perfect architecture." And I remember changing my Twitter handle cuz I got so upset and just went back to my video game name cuz I was like, I want things to be fun. I want this to stop. And so while I started when I started

streaming tech, my goal became to destroy whatever that tech mentality was because it includes nobody, everyone thinks that they're the smart people and they design for the dummies. And it's just like no. Like I want tech to be this place where people feel like they can be creative and excited and actually build something. And if you're new, like it's okay to be dumb and ask dumb questions. Like learn from your dumbness. No one's expecting you to be smart. Pick whatever you want. like actually do something and have fun and build like your crazy ideas. Oh,

you're going to reinvent the wheel. Reinvent the wheel. Understand what you're doing. Learn it really good and like interact and stuff. And it's just so different than what was out there. And that the name Arnold Schwarzenegger talks about this thing where when he first started acting, his name was like the thing that people hated as he uh once said, "You have a strange voice, you have a strange body, and your name your name's unpronouncable. No one's going to schnitzle. No one's going to remember that." Yeah. And he said, "But now the name is the strong

part." And for me, I just I've always felt akin to that. Though my name's not nearly as cool, nor am I as popular as Arnold, nor am I as tough or good-looking or successful. But nonetheless, it's just the the name represented this like counterculture like movement within myself in which I just hated what was there and I wanted to defeat it. And so this has like been the thing. And now people remember me so well because of how weird my name is. And so it's just like I for whatever reason it became its own thing.

And so that's kind of the now I would never change it. And back then I would never change it because it was my rage against the machine moment if you will. Mhm. Yeah. I love that as a symbol of rage against the machine and the rage being fun. Yeah. I just want people to like be creative and have fun again. It's okay. What about the mustache? It's an epic mustache. It's an epic stash. It has a life of its own. Is there an origin story or did you guys discover each other at some point or

was it did it emerge from the darkness of the struggle that is your life or where where does it come from? Well, the original original mustache is that it was no shave November back before it became Movember. It was No Shave November back in the day. And after No Shave November, you had all this hair. And so what's the natural thing you got to do? You got to sport a mustache for a day, right? So whenever I'd forget to, you know, not shave for a long time and then I'd let it start growing out really

big. I just go, "Oh, this is kind of funny. I'll have a mustache." And so one day when I was streaming, it's just one of those times I just didn't shave and then I started just letting it go and then I got kind of a beard and then I just had a mustache. And when I did it, people were just like, "Hey, it's mustache time." And I was just like, "Heck, it feels like it's like a lifestyle decision, right? It's like this is the fun times." And so all a sudden it was just like exciting

to have a mustache. and I shaved it off and I was like, "Oh, okay." But then, you know, part of me is like, you know, there's this weird energy that comes from just having a mustache. So, I was like, I'm going back. Told my wife, forgive her. Uh she was very uh not as thrilled about my decisions to have a mustache long term, but I just decided to have it back. And it just is it's just like it was the right thing. It's like part of it's always been the energy that I had was the

mustache. It was always been there. It just never was visible until later on. feels like. Yeah, we're we're chatting offline how uh one of the components of a successful relationship is sacrifice and your wife was willing to take the sacrifice of allowing you to have a mustache. I clearly was not willing to sacrifice not having one. So, you uh do this incredible thing where you tried a bunch of different programming languages when you stream. you uh you have like you go all out on certain programming languages like Rust and then Go and then trying to

pick a new one but also are like experimenting constantly. So um maybe one question I could ask is uh about learning what's your approach to learning a new programming language and maybe what's your advice on learning a new programming language when you uh begin that journey. So, I've kind of done a bunch of different ways to go through this learning process. And I've tried a lot of different ones. Something that is obviously successful is just start building something. Just put your hands on the keyboard, you know, like especially if you already know how to program.

You're like, "Okay, I'm now using Zigg. How do I do a main function so I can just run the program? Okay, I now know how to build. Okay, how do I do an if statement? What does it look like? Okay, how do I do declare my own functions? How do I do modules?" Right? you just kind of like Google your way through it if you will to get to the end product and build something. It's a good it's a great way to do things because I find that repetition like rote learning is obviously the best

way to do this. Uh you have to kind of go over it a bunch and you can you can definitely get out and build a lot of stuff with that and I I like that initial kind of get used to things but on top of it I find that by doing that you also fall into like traps. you kind of Google and you try to solve a problem in the language based on all of your previous experience. And so you you don't have what makes that language special. You kind of have what all the other

languages make special. And so you end up kind of not really being able to use it very effectively, but you can certainly kind of learn it and get kind of good at it. And so the second approach I've been doing lately, and this has been inspired by the creator of Ghosty, uh Mitchell Hashimoto, is to just start by reading the language reference, the whole thing. And so lately I've been just kind of going through and just reading the entire uh manual for these languages. Like Zigg, I'm almost done with that one. You know, it's like

eight to 10 hours of just sitting down reading. And I'll whip out my computer and kind of practice a couple of the things from the actual docs. And that way I can learn all the things. So then when I start building again, I remember, okay, I know there's a thing over here. Let me go reread about it because now I have it indexed in my brain somewhere that will kind of remember. And so I don't think there's like a right or wrong way. I mean, at the end of the day, the right way is always

that you have to build something eventually. You cannot just read about it. You have to put your hands on the keyboard. You have to build something out. And then once you do that, that's where you really discover what makes it painful or what makes it great. And if you don't have the breath of what the language offers, you just may make it painful by simply being bad at it. What exactly are you reading? Like the like language reference, the language reference. So, it just goes through like every feature top to bottom, right? Every way it's

described, all the different things. Like I think Ziggs is, you know, it's a it's a decent size, but it's not just simply read the words. You want to internalize each concept as well. So it takes a long time. So I'm a slow reader. So you're like building uh in AI terms like a background model like oh just cuz cuz I don't think you can just start building once you're done reading because you probably forgot Yeah. You know how to do a for loop like you you you kind of forget the specifics. you just are building

up the the design choices, the set of features available, what are the strengths and weaknesses, all that kind of stuff, and then you start building. That's really interesting. Probably not the thing you would recommend to uh uh a junior like developer, somebody who's just starting out at first. If you don't know what an if statement is, that's not a good way to learn. Like to me the best way to learn that is really hands on the keyboard and building extremely simple things and slowly growing in complexity because understanding what a class and methods and instances

versus the blueprint which is the class versus functions versus modules versus all that stuff, right? Like that's that just takes time to learn and so that's a completely different style of learning. I wonder because for me learning right now uh AI is is is a huge help but I already have a lot of experience. I wonder if you're starting from scratch whether that's a good idea, but I still think it's probably a really good idea. But basically, generate some code using AI and figure out what it's doing by playing with different parts. Um maybe can

you comment on on that aspect like the use of AI as part of the learning process? This is where I have both the hopeful and the doom or take at the exact same time. Yeah. Uh, and it's the same thing with Google or Stack Overflow like this. It's it's all the same kind of take, which is it's just making things more democratized in some sense. I get to ask questions in probably the most personal possible way with my own voice and my own words and it's able to produce out answers and kind of hopefully help

guide me now regardless of just say the errors and the incorrectnesses of it. like ultimately just using it as a learning, you know, tool and being able to just, you know, formulate and read answers in your own voice, I think is super powerful and I think it's it's super amazing. But the part that I think is going to be really difficult is that we don't value remembering things anymore as a society. Like since the internet came about, I can just look that up. I can just look that up. No need to like you don't need

to memorize your times tables, right? you can just use your calculator. You can just do all that. I I remember I just was sitting on the airplane and I watched someone do the world's most simple addition and subtraction like 10 times on their phone. I'm like, why are you not just like you should already know these? You should be able to do these things. And I realized that we kind of offload our brains, right? Oh, I don't need to know these things because I can look them up. And that's not a bad answer in some

sense. I can understand that. Like I don't need to remember every last thing. But then it also makes me realize that you kind of develop this learned helplessness that a new error comes up. I'll just ask the AI. AI says, "Oh, okay. I got to fix this line. I fix the line." You didn't actually learn anything. You kind of just used it as a quick means to get something out and move on. And so you sacrifice knowledge for speed, which is a great thing in some like you we have to make those trade-offs all the

time in engineering. Sometimes you have to move fast at the sacrifice of knowledge and I'm totally on board for that. But I worry that what we'll create is a um is an entire generation of incompetent programmers who can do some amount of things well. But anything that is unique, bespoke or require some extra like little elbow grease might become very difficult. It might cause a whole chasm where juniors remain juniors forever. And I don't want to see that. I want to see people grow. I want to see people, you know, actually be able to take

this as a craftsmanship thing. And so that's kind of what I that's like both my hope and my my worry is is that AI I think can can do both really because if you could ask whatever question you want and you don't have to rely on say a book to give you that exact answer and if the book just said it wrong and you can't understand it's just like sorry you don't get to learn what this is like recursion for me I spent way too much time until someone gave me the right problem to understand

recursion you could imagine AI could have solved that for me way faster because it could have gave me the right problem and walked me through much better but what if I just always have recursion solved by them and not learn it myself. So if I ask AI to generate code to do a certain thing, some actually a large percentage of time most of what AI generates is going to be correct for me. But some percent of time it's not like fundamentally not and for me to recognize the difference between those two I think it takes

a lot of experience. Like I think to learn that skill of knowing like no no no a different new out of the box solution is needed here than the one you're providing. You're missing the the the point. Um that's a skill and how do you learn that? You learn that by building from scratch. So both are probably really necessary. Yeah. But I think as a first step of learning how to program, it's pretty it's pretty nice to generate a function to generate for loops and all that kind of stuff and then just fuck with the

different lines and like modify them to try to adjust the behavior of the program. And from the way the the behavior of the program adjusts or bugs are created, you learn about the syntax of the the the language, the behavior of the language, all that kind of stuff. So, it's I I think it's a super powerful way to learn, but yeah, you need to also write from scratch. Yeah, at some point you have to take off the training wheels because I think what you're really spotting is the difference between reading and writing code. Like I

can read a lot of languages very well. I can see what's happening. I can understand it, but like I would not be very good at writing it. I can understand a lot of things about C++ and I can read it, but I'm just not that cuz I just don't I haven't done it in so long. and I can't remember all or all the semicolons and colons and like you know you do public and private and how should you do naming convent like you know all those things kind of add all together and then you're just

like oh I'm really bad at writing it though I can read it and so there's like this there's a skill gap chasm that exists between those two. All right. Well, let me talk about the various languages. The cheesy uh ridiculous question of what's the what's the best programming language? Um let's say what's the best programming language that everybody should learn. Maybe uh let's go with the top five. I'm going to pull up the Stack Overflow developer survey because I think we have Yeah, those are your way. You don't like them? No. No. Those are those

aren't that you got to remember because I mean you're a data guy, right? You know about biases and data. What does what does Stack Overflow naturally bias towards? Well, they have the different slices of professional developers, uh, junior developers, they have different slices. Okay. What's what what is the bias? I I hear you, but who fills out a Stack Overflow survey? Someone who participates on Stack Overflow, who's participating on Stack Overflow? Largely very, very new people and that one guy that loves answering questions. And so, I'm not sure if that like if Stack Overflow is

a great place to get data, it could be a very biased set of data. Is it really only uh new people? I mean that's who's using Stack Overflow. All right. Most popular technologies on this. JavaScript, HTML, Python, SQL. SQL. SQL is one of the more general kind of I I'm sure they're not doing the individual uh sort of flavors of SQL. Uh by the way, pronounce SQL versus SQL. It's squeal. Squeal. You squeal. Squeal. I think is the correct way. Squeal. I did sequel because I didn't, you know, I didn't know the audience. I don't

know if they can handle the truth. Okay. Which is it squeal. The squeal of joy is squeal is squeal light. My squeal postgress squeal. By the way, I had a lot of joy from earlier saying pig fucker for some reason. Speaking of such a I mean, can you believe that? That was a real conversation that I had. Yeah, that was uh Typescript, Bash, Java, C#, C++. It largely kind of aligns with the world you'd expect, but like assembly. Why is assembly more popular than Ruby? Who is who is writing just assembly by No one writes

assembly by hand other than like maybe that one guy that's developing TLS 1.3 and hand rolling a cryptography algorithm to be the fastest possible algorithm, right? Yeah, assembly is a weird one. Maybe people write it maybe in school, but even in school now for like a operating systems course or something like that or systems engineering. I don't know if they write assembly anymore. They I don't think so. Yeah. Anyway, and Swift and Ruby being less popular than Assembly seems ridiculous. Uh, but nonetheless, okay, so you get my ideas behind that. But as far as top

five languages go, that's probably too broad because you could just name so many. I think you should probably archetype it by what do you want to do. So if you want to get into game development, perhaps C, C++ could be good choices or uh JavaScript and doing canvas games. I could see that also working, but you know, you got to you're limited by doing JavaScript obviously because it you can't do as much because the language is just not fast enough to do as much. So, it's like a good thing to remember. Uh if you're going

to be doing backend stuff, you know, if you want a job, if you're looking for a job, maybe C#/java or JavaScript or Go would be great choices. If you're looking to do embedded, you probably want to do C. Mhm. C++. Like that would probably be a good choice. And so you kind of have to I think you have to first determine what do you really want to get out if you're just curious about programming which I talked to a lot of people who are uh yeah you can consider jobs but basically their question is okay

what's the first language I should learn and maybe what are the several languages I should explore. Can I say something that's going to make a lot of people angry? Yeah, sure. I think the first language people should learn if they have no idea about anything is JavaScript. Yeah. Why would that make people angry? Oh, because people just I'm first off, I'm not supposed to say anything nice about JavaScript. Yeah, usually that's the meme that you hate JavaScript, right? Yeah. No, JavaScript's a beautiful language and it has a lot of things that are very great for

it. And one of them is that you can express anything with very little effort. And so someone that's new, I think it's really great to be able to draw a box and move a box. Like that's great. You get to see it visually. I think that's one thing that's really great about JavaScript is that you can do that. Then you can go, okay, I want to learn about the back end. I'm going to make a request now. You can write a quick backend and it now you're starting to get familiar with programming a little bit.

I can save this to a database. I can bring it down. I can put it on a screen and I can animate it all around and I can even put it on a canvas and render it in 2D or 3D. So, it's like there's so much variety of what you can do with JavaScript. It's a great way to get introduced into programming, but then at some point you have to go, okay, I now need to learn more about this whole thing. I mean, yeah, just like you said, you can make games, you can do frontend,

backend for web development. You can even do embedded. They actually have J like there's uh West Boss is building his Roomba or something and programming it with JavaScript and React, which is just the world's worst language to choose for embedded, but you can still do it. Also, we mentioned sort of in terms of applications, anything that relates to data or machine learning, Python is uh the sort of the leader there. Yeah, that's a great one. Seems like Python, CUDA stuff, and C++ would be a dynamite in that because a lot of these Python libraries I

assumed are just you're just smuggling in C++ underneath the hood or C. Okay, so JavaScript, I'll say Python. Python's a great one, too. You can get quite far with it, but you can't write the front end. So what if you love the front end, right? What happen if you really just want to design things and you just didn't know that? Well, it's okay. So for that, JavaScript, but Python's a good choice cuz you can't do the ML stuff in JavaScript nearly as easy. Do we count HTML and CSS as programming languages? I think there's like

some technical definition that it is if you put it if you use this certain amalgamation of CSS plus HTML, it actually has like it can be a touring complete language. Yeah. But I mean for practical purposes, no. HTML is not a language. Um, you know, I for me, listen, yes, the touring test is a good one, but for those that are just not wanting to be as academic, if I can't write a function in an if statement, I don't feel like that's a I don't if I can't loop if and function, I don't feel like

that's a good that's a programming language. Although modern HTML has a lot of features. It's crazy how much it has, but it's more of a specification than anything else. I specify it to be a pop-up. I specified to have this kind of like accessibility, this kind of look, this kind of, you know, under these conditions, look like this, transform like this, move down here. I don't know. I kind of like these popular programming languages in this list. I like JavaScript. You like Bash? Well, yeah, I like Bash a lot. Yeah. Why? Okay. Bash is kind

of one of those ones where it's like, do you really like the Do you really like it? I like it up until I need an array. Oh, as a programming languages, no. But I like I like the command line. Okay. That's what I do like that. No, nobody likes bash. Do you mean I'm someone is so offended right now? Means do you use it a lot? Yes. It's good to I mean it's good to learn, right? It's good to be comfortable in the command line because it's a bit of a superpower. It's like I think

I follow on Twitter FFmpeg. Great account. Like there's certain Twitter accounts that are just like legit. Yeah. And uh you know I I think ffmpeg like they have all these sort of parameters that you can add on the command line that it's like one of those cryptic languages that only very few wizards understand. But once you begin to slowly understand and I'm only at the very sort of beginning stage of that journey to mastery the powers you gain at every step is like it grows exponentially. It feels like I mean FFmpeg is just this incredible

like what would you call a library system there just the people behind it must be just brilliant masterminds because they have to work with all these codecs with all these containers with all this they the the the mysteries of the media codec universe they're like masters of and they understand compression which is another super fascinating technical uh set of problems that I don't know I just ffmpeg just fills me with joy that it exists, but you need kind of bash type comfort, command line comfort to to to work with it to really uh unlock its

power. Yeah, I think ffmpeg is probably one of the most consequential libraries of our day and the Twitter account is so unhinged. It is it's the most amazing thing to see because I think ffmpeg does not get the love it deserves. Yeah. Every single application OBS probably ffmpeg underneath the hood. all the prof everything ffmpeg underneath the hood and then and yet you know they do not get the love they deserve. I just love it. I just think they're the best. Yeah, I would say JavaScript, HTML, CSS, Python, SQL. I mean that is SQL, Squeal

is is a programming language. Yeah, it's an incredibly sophisticated programming language. Yeah, SQL is interesting. I I would I believe you can classify it as a programming language. does have like if you have case statements and it it's pretty crazy what you can do with it. You can do functions, you can do all that you should stored procedures that that's how you make your life hell. Um I will say that all the top languages right there are none of them are like strict uh static typed languages and so even TypeScript you can you know I

don't like this any and so for people that are learning doing something that's much more strict would be great something like Go Rust um even I mean even C++ like anything that kind of changes your perspective of types I think is really helpful to kind of go through. They're not getting nearly as much love on this most popular language list, but I think they're very fantastic. All right. Well, if I put a gun to your head, five top five languages. Let's let's list them out there. There's a brighteyed 20-year-old asking you what are the top

languages to five languages to learn. Um, if I were to pick five languages that I think people should learn, or at least how, let's restate it this way. I'm going to say a couple languages and you should at least explore some of them. I think you should explore explore a Lucy language. So, uh, Python/JavaScript where there is truly only one type which is a boxed value which is a multivariant different types underneath the hood, right? Would you call it a Lucy language? A loosey goosey language, right? It's a dynamic language. Okay. Um, and so I

think it's really good to explore one of those two. So, I'd put Python or JavaScript right there. Even Lua, throw Lua in the bunch. I think you should explore a strict language. Uh, so I'd do something like Rust, Go. Um, I think those are both really really great. C++, you can do C++. You can do some type eraser in C++. You can do it with Go as well, but it's for the most part that's it's a great language to do that in. Um, it can get a little wild. New C++ seems great. Everyone keeps telling

me new C++ is great. Mhm. Um, it has every feature you've ever wanted and all the features you don't want. Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's smart pointers, there's dump pointers, there's all kinds of pointers. There's no memory leaks. It's not an issue. face guns, soft beds, there's everything in there. Unless you like memory leaks that it has that too if you want that kind of thing. It's great. Okay, how about this one? Languages that I actually want to really learn that at least sit in my curiosity bank. There's three languages, which is going to be

swift, elixir, o camel, and then I'm going to throw th Odin in there just to just cuz gingerbell is great. But elixir and o camel. I don't have a strong functional language underneath my belt. That's something I just genuinely lack. Yeah, I've heard incredible things about elixir, about Odin, about Okamo. Uh, obviously I'm a person, as you know, who loves lisp. I have never done lis. Lisp could be in that category too. Just like learn or closure, I think at this point is what everyone tells you to use. So, in the case of lisp, I

don't want to speak negatively about lisp, but it's important about like modern community, what the community looks like. And it seems like there's an excited, maybe small, but an excited community around Elixir, Odin, and Okamo. So that helps you say you can post shit on Twitter that you're like I accomplished this and people get excited and it's nice. It's a good feeling. You can post like something on Twitter and you'll get like a thousand likes if you do something cool in Elixir. Yeah. Okay. Like which is a pretty big that's like a pretty big amount

of people to like a post for such a niche topic. Programming is already a pretty small topic. Then you get into functional programming. That's a small topic in a small topic. Yeah. I don't get that much. If I post something about Emacs, I'll get crickets. If I post something, if I if I proudly use Neovam, there'd be a lot of people like, "Yeah, good job." Cuz it is the best editor. Um, yeah, maybe it's just hype. Come back to the Civil War, Wax. Yeah, sometimes you have to sacrifice and go from the superior editor that

is Emacs and uh choose Neoim just to be popular. You sacrifice integrity and values and quality for just popularity. So, choice you made. I love how you put it. Okay. Uh, anyway, what were we talking about? I like how you're doing this in bunches. That's great. Right now, my my kind of side honeys that I'm exploring is side honey. Yeah, side honeys. I like they're not my main stay right now. Go is kind of my favorite one to build a web app in. Like if I'm going to build some sort of backend with a lot

of complicated logic, go is just so convenient, but I get really frustrated with its ability to express uh everything that I need. Like if you have a list, a heterogeneous list, a list that contains two types, go's just really not that fun to use. And so I could see so the ones I'm exploring is Jai or J or the language as Jonathan Blow says and Zigg and both of them have a lot of power to them. They're both very interesting. They definitely have foot guns in them. They're definitely more, you know, um they don't take

it easy on you. Zigg seems like it's a really amazing language and so does Jai. They're both very cool. Yeah, actually I saw uh Dave uh Plamer's testing of close to 100 languages for speed and Zig came out on top. Yeah, that was a mistake. I mean when I say mistake I nothing against Dave Plamer. He's an extremely talented engineer. It's just that Zigg, C, C++, all those languages that were being tested, they're all LVM backends, right? That's the one that actually turns the thing into the executable part. And if there's a variation in speed,

it just means in one language you didn't quite express what you're supposed to correctly. Like uh there's the language ball test that's been bouncing around on Twitter. Yeah, Zigg was like sixth or seventh below, I forget what language is. Um I played around with the example, added the word uh no alias to the argument, which means that the p the piece of memory that's coming into this function, there's no global pointers, there's nothing to it, and so the compiler can make these really cool uh optimizations. And I made it faster than the C version. So

it just means that just it's just not correctly specified is all that means. Yeah. But it's still it's still exciting to me. The competition between Zigg, Rust, and C++ is really interesting. Like part of it for speed, part of it how easy it is to write performant code. I will say something that's the reason why I think Zigg is so interesting comparatively to say C or Rust. C is like the ultimate language. It can do anything. You have pre-processor macros. You can do quite a bit with it. But it's also really difficult and it's also

really simple and you can learn it. So it's kind of its like own unique beast. And when you get really good at C, C is a magical language and people are really great at it. Um, and people speak very highly of it. Rust is like this ultra safe language. What you can do in C, you just can't even express in Rust. Rust is going to be that safe, the safe man that holds you at night, keeping you warm, right? It's going to be just the greatest. But somewhere in the middle lies Zigg. Zigg has optionals.

If you're not familiar with optionals, that just simply means there's a value here or there's not. But you first have to check that before you can use it. So it prevents that whole null pointer dreerencing seg fault problem. And that's not that's not available in C just by default. You have to kind of build that thing in. It is the only option in Rust. But Zigg says, "Hey, if you have a pointer, you can't express it as null unless if you mark it that it can be null." There's ways around it. There's like other types

of pointers and stuff like that that can do that. But for the most part, Zigg like we'll give you safety for the most part, right? So it's like a little bit of safety, but more like C. So it kind of gives you like everything you kind of want in that region where where you can express safe code and unsafe code. It's very easy to write. It's very It's very pretty or at least the idea behind it is very pretty. The language itself is bland but wow there's beauty in everything. Yeah. Prime. Uh you've uh programmed

in Rust a lot. What do you uh what do you love about Rust? What are the strengths? What are the weaknesses? Maybe you can speak about memory management that you already mentioned. Yeah. The challenge of memory management that uh several of these languages address. But yeah, what do you love about Rust? What I love about Rust? I I love that it's that uh the ability to free the memory that you're using is directly tied to the stack. So whenever you create something, there's a stack variable or there's some amount of stack memory, whether it's a

pointer off to the heap, a pointer and a length. So you know, some amount of memory on the stack and then some memory on the heap because like a string is not all on the stack. It's some on the heap, some on the stack. And when that stack variable goes out of scope and gets cleaned up, it also cleans up what's on the heap. So it kind of simplifies this whole idea of whoops, I forgot to free my memory. It just does it for you. So it's not a garbage collector, which will do it sometime

later. It's not like C where you have to call it yourself. It's somewhere in between. Now, there's a lot of strategies people use um arenas and all that that make that C part much easier. I'm just not even mentioning it, but it just makes it a lot easier. But Russ does that really beautifully and it's just like a really cool idea about it and I really like that. And the second thing that I think Russ does really like is such a good thing is that mutability of something is you have to specify it. So you

don't just create a variable and then mutate it. You have to say this is not only a variable, it's a mutable variable. M and I think that just makes code really readable and really understandable cuz anything that does not have the word mute next to it, you know for a fact it cannot change. So there's some rules around that but you get the general idea. Unlike most programming languages, you have to explicitly state that this is going to be ch this is going to be changed. Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. I mean it's safe. It's

it's trying to be and and this the safety might be it's uh create limitations. Let us consult the AI overlords. Russ is a blazing fast memory efficient systems programming language that emphasizes performance, type safety, and concurrency. Uh the language enforces memory safety without using a garbage collector as you said instead utilizing the unique quote borrow checker that tracks object lifetimes at compile time. This prevents common programming errors like null pointer dreferencing and memory leaks and so on. Yeah. So you've also spoken about metaroming. Um which of these languages do you like for the meta programming?

I love metaroming in C++ but it's a giant mess. At least when I program C++ C++ 17 standard I believe. It's just it's just a mess. Especially a mess to debug. Yeah. I I would consider myself kind of a meta programming newbie. I have only solved some amount of problems with it. Uh I I'm that's kind of like what this year is for is for me to really I want to see where the ends can go in that. So I don't have a strong opinion on this one. Uh Zigg, one thing I really like about

Zig is that the meta programming is also the language itself. So you don't have to like there's not there's not an alternative. So with Rust, there's an alternative. When you create a macro, you have to do the macro syntax. With Zigg, it's just it is the thing. You just program it. You add the word comp time if you want it to be a compile time only. So you can do like you can create the list of prime numbers at compile time in zeg which is kind of an interesting unique thing. So you have code that

executes at compile time and then you can take advantage of the result of it at runtime. So neat, right? Like that's how I'd look at it. Uh but again I haven't I haven't used it to the point where I feel like I can super authoritatively talk about it. You have been undecided. What language are you going for this year? Uh I'm going to keep go as my main stay. my two side honeys and I'm going to explore and try to build out a service in them that can do a bunch of talking to say Chad

and 11 Labs and send stuff down to client and work with websockets and I want to make sure that uh I just want to see kind of how do they perform in this realm and you know I may be using the language incorrectly like J I'm not exactly it's not really been designed for the web world I just got done writing the ability to read Twitch chat and it required me to do Berkeley sockets so if you're unfamiliar with Berkeley sockets it's like the old way of doing it. It's how you do it in C.

So, you have to kind of go through the whole nine yards of uh creating your own connection. I had to create my own connection. I have to read from the socket. Then I have to parse out all the IRC, right? Like you have to kind of build it from scratch. There's not like a new TCP connection to this server. You have to be like, I'm creating a socket. You're going to be of the IPv4 family and TCP and you're going to do, you know, I'm going to now have to take your address and go look

up your address with DNS, get that address back, and then connect it to with TCP. So, it's a lot more manual still. It's a lot more raw in that area, but it's fun. What are some epic projects you've built on stream that uh jump to memory? My most favorite Sorry for interrupting you. Sorry, I'm getting I'm I'm really jazzed right now. Let's go. Okay. So, jazzed. Jazz hands. Uh my most favorite project uh was the one I did last year there. Someone built a Doom ASI port. So, you could play Doom with ASI. So, that

means you could play it in your uh terminal. very very fun, very excit. Then I took that Doom ASI and I sent it to the browser so that people could play Doom Asie in the browser. But then I made it so that Twitch chat could control that instance of Doom uh ASI by piping in Twitch chat, taking the average of the movements over so much time and replaying it as if it was a controller. And I had Twitch chat beat level one by spamming it. But the fun part was I used a bunch of fun

encoding techniques. So I used like quad trees to be able to take smaller amounts to use run length encoding. Tried to create my own compression algorithm because if you're sending out a bunch of asky stuff it's still pretty expensive because you have to represent color. Color is not cheap on top of it. You have to represent what does it look like? What does the asky look like? Well I realized you know there's all these fun techniques you can do for compression. like the shape of the asy you send down is in a lot of these

engines are actually just proportional to the lumosity of that pixel. So like you'd use an eight to represent or a pound sign to represent like white but black you're going to want to do like a period or a comma or a bar, you know, something smaller. So it's like I then developed all these different compression algorithms to turn a bunch of data which would take, you know, I forget how much it would take. could take gigabytes upon gigabytes to be able to send out to thousands of people to all see the same image at the

same time to all be able to interact with Doom at the same time. I turned it from gigabytes into kilobytes by just trying to figure out how to like make it as small as possible and send it all out. It was super fun. Absolutely had a great time. So, you're actually sending it to all the people in chat. So, where's the that that pipe where that pipeline how chat is able to control the Doom thing? Twitch chat. Yeah. So they would go, people would span W and if you said W, it would hold down W

for 150 milliseconds if the majority of people during that time period said W. Nice. Okay. So, and how are they getting the input of where you are on screen? So, and originally I was going to send that through Twitch, but Twitch is like 5 seconds behind. So, that's why I piped it out to a website. Nice. So, everybody could see from my computer to the website. And typical uh lag was right around 70 milliseconds. Mhm. So it's like they could mostly see what was happening in that short period of time. It was it was pretty

exciting. So we had 1,000 people or I had somewhere between 1,000 to,400 people smashing W's and pressing F to fire and turning and we killed some zombies. We blew up the barrel at the very end of level one to kill the imp. How are you getting the W's from the Twitch chat? Is there an API? IRC. I was using IRC. So just a little TCP socket and then you just parse out IRC. Okay. And there's very little lag there. Okay. Yeah, I think it's it's a couple hundred milliseconds though. It's enough that it actually made

it a little bit difficult because people would often overturn and then go forward and like miss the door and then they had to go back and that's awesome. It was awesome. So that was my favorite I think project of all time just cuz it I never got to do like a lot of encoding. Encoding is kind of like you know you what do you normally do? Okay, I need to send something down. I don't know, gzip it. Server will just do it. Server just does the right thing. I don't need to think about it. So

instead it's like I think about it. I'm going to send the right thing. Yeah, you have to think about the compression. Yeah. And there you go. That's some more love towards FFmpeg. They have to think about that a lot. Ultimately inspired by FFmpeg and their awesomeness. Uh so can can you speak to just the chat community in general? Like a big part of what you do in terms of streaming is the humans that are communicating with you live. Can you uh can you talk to the uh the different chat communities? First of all, which is

the best chat community? Uh YouTube, Twitch, or X? This is where I feel bad for YouTube cuz I do think it's technically the worst, but it's not YouTube's fault. And let me kind of explain why and then I will explain why you're wrong, but go ahead. I know you love I know you love YouTube, but let me let me explain why is that when you go on Twitch, you go to anyone's channel Mhm. they have this like cultural human centipede thing that's happening where as the memes flow in all of Twitch kind of reacts and

and morphs to all those memes. So every channel you go to has this like same culture. Everyone there's a lot of similar emotes and everything. So it's very tight-knit. So when I stream, I get all the same jokes that you would pretty much see if you saw, I don't know, Sodapoppin or some big streamer, Asmin Gold, whoever, Prate Software streaming. All the same memes would all flow through the exact same kind of pipe. And so it's a very holistic kind of community. So every time you're making jokes, you're making jokes that are like in the

ether. Twitter kind of has that, too. Tech Twitter kind of has like a set of jokes. And so you can kind of see it. The problem with Twitter chat is that there's just nobody there right now. You know, typically like just to put it into perspective, I have somewhere between uh somewhere between like 1,500 to 3,000 uh people on Twitch, somewhere between 800 to 2,000 on YouTube, and like 50 people on Twitter. So, it's like the the difference is is massive, but they all kind Twitter has that same thing that's developing where there's like memes

that are constantly flowing through it, and so they're very highly connected. YouTube just doesn't seem to have that. They're just a bunch of people and people go to YouTube for various reasons. I'm going to YouTube to learn. So, they come in, they want to learn. So, they're not like on the meme train. They're not in this like cultural zeitgeist train. They're just like, but why would you use this if statement when a switch statement in this one particular case? And you're just like, well, that's not what I'm trying to do here. Yeah. You you want

to captain the meme train or you want to ride on the meme train. Yeah. or you just want to be able to like create a culture on your chat because your chat's going to be some variation of the of that kind of zeitgeist that's flowing through Twitch and it kind of is very contiguous between X and Twitch. It just feels really out of sync with YouTube and then YouTube particularly does a bad job and some people would argue a good job because you can swim. Swim being you can actually change what time stamp you're at.

So all of a sudden you'll be like, "Oh yeah, you know, I you know, something about like driving to soccer in my minivan." And then 20 minutes later you'll be talking about Zigg and someone's like, "I personally use whatever to drive to soccer." And you're like, "What are we talking about?" Like, so YouTube is a very disjointed chat as well because it depends on where they're at within the video. Swim comes from Netflix, by the way, called swim. Swim the term. Yeah, that's that's that we people said swim. Oh, so you're you're okay. swimming through

the Yeah. So, you're not just making up the term. Thank you. Wow. Yeah. But it's probably made up and probably only 10 people said it at Netflix and so no one's going to know it and they're gonna be like, "Yeah, right. That thought happens on Netflix." Uh, so going back to projects, what what projects on stream or in general? No, you need to answer why YouTube chat's the best chat. Well, you kind of convinced me. Okay. Why YouTube is the best chat? Um, well, I think I'm just a hater. Uh, that's that's basically what it

boils down to. And I'm just talking shit and I'm probably just like from the outside shoot, you know, shooting in because Twitch is such a fun culture, you know, of memes. And so it's just fun to shoot from the outside to like throw to like egg the house of Twitch and then I just sit back on my lawn chair and uh with the small YouTube community just talking shit. No, you're you're absolutely right. There is a there's a real sort of sense of community that Twitch can can form. But I just like the openness of

YouTube. It's just better at opening to the world. It's more accessible. It's easier to share. It's just a more established platform. That's all for the non uh for the open world. Like I can send it to people that don't usually watch video game streaming or all that kind of stuff. Yeah. If you send a Twitch link, they're like, "I don't like video games." games and you're like, "Well, actually, it's not in video." Like, there there's that talk happens every single time you mention Twitch, cuz Twitch does have a perspective about it that YouTube does not.

I was just on uh uh Joe Rogan's podcast and I I think it came up. He asked something like, "Is Twitch still a thing?" So, that just gives you an example. Uh and then and then Jamie uh said, "Yeah, yeah, it's definitely still a thing. It's still like growing and so on." And so yeah, there's just a big slice of humans that don't participate in the Twitch uh Twitch sphere. Yeah, I just like talking shit. So yeah, that's a beautiful answer. But it's cool that you sort of make it accessible on all these different platforms

and I have high hopes for X, but yeah, it's feature- wise, it still has a lot of growing up to do and and just like why do people use X? You typically are going there for like a textbased interaction you want to look through. So, I also think they just have like a user expectation change that needs to happen and that that just takes a while. You know, that's going to take a little bit before people get to it. I think their idea of audio first is a great first step where people can kind of

listen to it and have the phone away. Maybe there's a lot of like changes that have to happen before X can be successful, man. I mean, X is this incredible comment section just like Reddit, right? So, it's like No, no, you said incredible. That's not Reddit. Uh, comment section. Correct. Comment. Yeah, incredibly dynamic and vibrant even if it's uh Yeah. What is the what is the technological platform like? How does the the interface and the technology shape the discourse? It's fascinating cuz X has a different style than Reddit, different style than like Facebook, different style

than Instagram. It's interesting and all those comment sections are different technologically like how the sorting is done, how easy it is to sort of uh uh build a community around it, you know, cuz YouTube is not really a community. Every single video on YouTube has its own mini community. You're like all talking shit on just that one video. But like you're not you can't jump across. There's not like hey Bill, hey Jordan, you know. There's no cross talk that happens in multiple videos. Yeah, but community is awesome. I love community. I love the feeling of

community and I guess that's what Twitch really provides. YouTube also does have it though. Like they have an aggregate community, you know? There's a lot of fun comments and all that on the videos and a lot of thumbs up and then you see the fun discourse that happens and it's like that's the community. It's just only a certain slice sees it. I think that's even more so on YouTube for live streaming. Th all all the same folks show up and they talk shit. They celebrate. They all like the the meme train arrives. Yeah. Okay. So

now, what projects shape you as a programmer? Uh whether the ones you streamed or uh offline. For me, I don't know if there's like a one project I can point to, but I can I can point to a specific spot where I think it happens and where I think you can learn a lot from. Um, any small program you write will be somewhere between like a thousand to 5,000 lines of code. I consider like a pretty dang small project. You can kind of correlate this to any feature within a larger system as well. You know,

a specific feature on a website could be a thousand lines, a couple thousand lines. There's a point in which all of your choices add up. And that's I typically find that right around 5 to 10,000 lines of code. The choices you've made either weigh you down or kind of free you up. And so it's right in that that I feel like I learn the most is because I love getting to that point in a project or in some small part of the codebase because at that point I get to test a how good were my

initial gut decisions about how I design software, but b now I need to go back and think about like how am I going to do testing across this in a more effective way? How can I scale this out to 20,000 lines of code? How can I do all these things with what I've got or do I need to kind of rethink it? And I find that that's really where the best learning happens is that everybody has probably a different number that exists. And as you go to each one of these numbers or how well or

holistic you want your project to be, I think that you'll come up with different numbers. And I think that number should just get bigger as you get more experienced cuz you know there's like there's projects that are a million lines of code, but they're most certainly not holistic, right? Like every part of the codebase is some age at some capsule of time with some sort of programming style. some is more functional, more class-based, more god help your soul if it's pre-processor macros in C++, right? Like there's like all these different kind of things you'll find

throughout time. And so that's why I kind of try to think about it as like the feature or the thing you're working on. It's usually about 5,000 lines is where I find that things get kind of did I make good or bad decisions? And that's where I do all my learning is right on that phase. I'm trying to get it to the point where I should be able to shoot from the hip and do 20,000 lines and not be upset about it. So first of all the just enjoying the thing you create part. Yeah about

there you can sit back and see all the parts dancing together. Uh for me also debugging you get to see the choices you make materialize as like how easy it is to debug. Like I'm a big proponent I think you've mentioned this in the past. Um I put uh asserts everywhere. No you're the reason why I do that. Yeah. You're like the first one. Keep on going. Sorry. really okay. Uh so for me one of the joys whether it's uh try catch blocks whether it's assert whether it's with the testing I uh I get to

see the payoff of all the the mind field of asserts I've laid out before me in my kingdom by how quickly I can debug a system as it grows larger and I can first of all discover errors before they become real bugs and also how quickly I can solve those errors. And that that brings me joy. For me, a lot of the joys of programming is creating powerful systems that don't break down that work correctly. They work correctly in majority of the cases. And there sort of the stress testing the system and getting all the

signals from that system that everything is working correctly is uh is is something that fills me with joy and makes sure that the system actually works. So yeah, that I don't know if it's 5 10,000 lines of code. If it's Java or C++, it's millions lines of code. But yeah, um in Python, yeah, I would say 10,000 lines of code. That's when you first get to see the magic. But anyway, you were saying, okay, so you and John Carmarmac had a conversation about asserts. Yes. You talked about this idea of putting asserts everywhere that effectively

crash the program when you you have some state in your program that should not be represented and you have made this choice actively. Mhm. And so I've never done that before and I know this is like an old technique and I obviously must be too young or too dumb to know that this was a thing people did. I grew up in Java and I think that's probably why I didn't run into this. So I saw that I was like I'm curious about how to use asserts more. And then I ran into a person named Yuron.

He's the CEO and creator of Tiger Beetle. It's like the world's fastest greatest financial database. And it was spawned out of a company that needed to do a bunch of financial transactions. And it's written in Zigg. And what they do is they do deterministic simulation testing and they just uh use NASA's kind of guarantee for creating really great software. So like don't use size specify your exact size of int you expect everywhere. All these kind of like things they do to be very uh specific and one of them is that every function should contain two

asserts whether it's positive space like uh you know these things should happen or negative space like you should not this pointer should never be null. you're programming into things that should never happen. Normally, you just never specify that. You'd never think about that. So, every single function everywhere has all these asserts. And these asserts run both in production and in testing. They're always on. And then they take determination simulation test, deterministic simulation testing, and run like 200 years of just random data, just complete slop going through the system and seeing how far it goes. And

when an assert happens, they're like, "Here's the input that caused it. Here's every last little bit that happened. And now you can identify where this went wrong. And it was so cool. So between you, John Carmarmac, and you're on, that's where I like, okay, I gotta really, and NASA, I'll throw NASA bone as well. NASA can join in on that one. Uh, I was like, okay, I want to try this. And I did try it. I built uh kind of like this big reverse proxy for me trying to do some game development stuff. And I

just went ham on the asserts. And then I built a whole simulation testing thing that could do everything deterministically. So, you know, even the result of requests would all come in specific orders. and I found a bunch of bugs that I just would never have found. And then I did it for a game I was making. I found some bugs where my cursor went off screen. It would cause all these different problems because I just never tested them. And it was super fun. And it's like a really great way to program. Yeah, I think it's

a skill set you grow over time. It's it's not just that you have to specify the preconditions like every everything that has to be true. It's also adding things that are like you might not even think about. you have to sort of anticipate really weird things. And if you add asserts, especially in complicated functions or in in complicated classes that uh are able to catch really weird things, that's going to save you so many headaches and it's going to help you learn about your own code. This is one of the things I think it was

uh Jonathan Blow that either in conversation with you or was it uh in presentation he said that when he's starting on a project he usually doesn't know what like how to implement it like what how it's going to work u and I think he was saying that he wants a programming language this might have been a criticism of C++ I'm not sure where he wants to programming language that makes it um as painless as possible for him to not know what he's doing, how he's going to implement it, and to quickly get to a place

where he figures it out. I think there's a fundamental like part of programming is building stuff while not really knowing what the next thing you're doing is. You kind of have a loose design, maybe a strict design, but really you're solving puzzles that are not it is a dark room in a in a fundamental sense. And there you have to anticipate the kind of weirdnesses that might emerge while not really knowing everything just this this full like fog fog of war. Um and there that's a real skill to anticipate the kind of uh issues that

might arise and put asserts on top of them. And it's also like spiritually for me uh been a really nice way of programming of building of living life is having like very strict asserts that say like you're going to fix this problem if it ever arises. You can't just look the other way. Like this idea of treating warnings as errors, like make sure your code compiles without any warnings. That was a big leap for me. It's like, "But there's so many of them." And I it's not really that important. It's like, "No, no, no warnings."

Like, make sure you treat every single problem, uh, even like fuzzy problems seriously because that's actually long-term is going to create code that's much easier to work with, much more fun to work with, much more robust, resilient to all kinds of weirdnesses, all that kind of stuff. It's a different way of approaching coding probably more NASAlike versus like web programming style but yeah it's it has made programming for me personally much more fun cuz one of the most painful things about programming is creating when you get past 10,000 20,000 lines of code and you have

to find a bug and that bug can take hours it could take days to find and that's torture. Yeah, when your system gets sufficiently large, some of these bugs are just they are very difficult. I, you know, bless anyone's soul that's working on million line code bases because it does it just I I can't tell you how many times I've spent multiple days just trying to figure out the root cause of the bug. Not even the fix, just like why does this happen? And that's hard. So, I love that. I just love the asserts because

I'm not good at them. I can see it's definitely a skill that I don't I don't put into practice constantly, which means it's just not like a muscle memory type thing. M and so it's just one of those things I just love. It's just it's such a fascinating way to approach a problem. Uh cuz I would have never thought, you know what I'm going to do if I'm wrong, I'm going to crash this thing. I'm going to crash it right here because I should never be wrong. But instead, you're like, oh, actually that makes perfect

sense. I should crash this thing. I've done something terribly wrong here. Why would this ever exist? And then you're like, this is going to solve a whole class of problems. Yeah. And especially if it's in production, it's like, well, users are going to see this crash. It's like, yeah, well, you should minimize the number of times any user ever sees the crash. Not by like having a nice blue screen or whatever the fuck, but like actually stopping everything. And that's going to be uh that's going to create an incentive for you to never have that

happen. You're actually going to put in the time to make sure it never happens. And the nice part is like with the web and all that, you can always pop up something and say, "Hey, things have gone very, very wrong. We're unable to recover." Or you can like give him a nice message and then log it off so he can see it and then measure how often are you doing it. You know, I I understand that there's a bit of interestingness to a um to a web project. Like do you want to always crash a

server? There's a bit of a gamble if you release a bad version and you crash all your servers constantly, you know, like that's a that's a pain you're going to have to accept. I think this is more applicable for uh single systems like robots and so on. You uh have struggled with ADHD. I think uh a lot of people are really inspired by the fact that you're able to be productive and flourish uh while having ADHD. How'd you overcome it? Well, there's a lot of things that ADHD affects. And so I'll start with some of

the easiest things because there's like directly applicable then like these kind of collateral damage applicable things that happen. So, one thing that has really helped me with ADHD is maturity. I think that's just like just a thing that everyone needs more of. Meaning that I found myself getting so wiggly and so out of control when I would try to sit down and read and I just I just couldn't handle it. I just felt like I'd read a page and didn't read anything. Uh the part of me that just went, "Oh man, gosh, I just can't

even do this." I had to just simply quit listening to it and said, "Nope, I'm rereading this page. I'm I remember reading some pages in college like 18 times in a row. Just like I'm going to force myself to just do this the correct way. And so there's an aspect of maturity that really helps no matter what. I will do the thing I'm going to do and I'm going to do it well. And maybe it takes me a lot longer and that's okay. That's not the point of it. It's that I'm doing it and that's

the point. And so that's kind of like one thing I think just generally helps. and it ADHD, no ADHD, you know, the resilience, emotional resilience is just like a really important aspect that just helps. And so I think that has been a large part that really helps me. Um, there's things that I still obviously struggle with. Like it's clear where I'm really bad at stuff and just trying to like think through all the different things that I'm bad at. there's more things I'm bad at than I'm good at. And so programming obviously has something that

just allows me to remain focused and it's like a strength of mine. And so I started off where I could just do it for a little bit. And then just through kind of that emotional resilience, I was able to start doing it more and more. And so now I can just do it for like 10, 12, 15 hours at a time. And I absolutely love it. And so it's it's become kind of like a joy. It's like playing a musical instrument. I'm really into it. But then if it came down to, hey, you need to

go schedule your own, you know, dentistry and go do all these other things or make sure the kids have this type of stuff ready for, you know, the meals you need to pack throughout the week. I'm historically very bad at that and will probably uh continue to be very bad at that. And so I must say that one of the reasons why I excel so much is because I also have a wife who is so good to me and she helps clear out a lot of the things in my life that cause a lot of

like me kind of getting snowballed into a weird spot where I'm just like distracted getting nothing done. And so she's really helped me. So it would be foolish of me to claim that I've defeated day ADHD by myself. But instead I find that the places that I can really control I've done a very good job at. And the things that I obviously need to do much better at my wife has helped me a whole bunch. And so I've kind of cheated. Maybe I found a cheat code, a loving wife, but that has been the thing

that has really helped. You you said a lot of interesting things. So on the on the reading and the for me it's also audiobook side. I do uh the same thing and I've gotten much better at it which is like you know I tune out mentally and I you know I yeah there's you know read a page and you don't understand anything on the p you you didn't actually read it and yeah you I I forced myself to just uh reread it or relist to an audio book which is much more common problem for me

now uh and forcing myself to really pay attention cuz I I listen to audiobooks often when I run and it's so easy to just tune out. Yeah, it's a skill. Like, I didn't realize how much of a skill listening to an audio book is, especially when there's other sensory inputs, like when you run. So, I have to force myself to like really pay attention to every single word. And if I don't like tune out and don't remember what I just listened to in the past 30 seconds, I force myself to relisten to it. And uh

sometimes that means like five times until I like it's like punishing myself to like you're going to listen to this boring shit over and over until you you get good at that little skill of like zoom in and you're like yeah there's people that are like doing stuff. There's nature doesn't matter. You're listening to every single word and loading it in and trying to stay focused even there's just so many distractions all around you. Yeah, it's definitely a learned skill and it takes a lot of time. And when I say, you know, oh, I was

able to do from here to here. I'm speaking over the course of like five years of doing this every day. Like it's not some small, there's no, you could, the nice part about that decision though is you can make that decision today. You can make it right now. You're going to be like, from here on out, I will never make that mistake again. I will say I'm going to read 50 pages. I will sit down and read 50 pages and when I get distracted, I'll go back to the last place I remember and I will

start again. And like that's a decision you can make. That's a mature, you know, non-emotional decision to make. And you can do that. It just may be really painful for the first couple years of making said decisions and then it gets easier and then it gets easier and then it just it becomes more natural to change yourself. Yeah. And with with every medium with every platform I think it's like a new skill. Uh for me like using social media has been that just like I end up like doom scrolling Yeah. too easily on platforms. So,

and one solution is not to look at all, which is kind of what I lean on mostly these days. But I feel like I should be able to check, just read. Mhm. Okay. Feel a thing, learn a thing, and then put it down. Yeah. Versus like this glazed look over your eye, and you're not really paying attention anymore, and you're dead inside, and you feel horrible afterwards. I don't understand. Um, the horrible afterwards is real serious. I I've definitely I can 100% notice that I am a more anxious person the more time I spend scrolling.

Yeah. Yeah. I can just feel it. It's like something inside of me that's kind of I don't know how to say it other than it like wants to get out, but I don't really know what that is. It's it's not anger, but it's not, you know, it's it's very anxious. It's like the opposite of the feeling I have when I wake up in the morning and I'm feeling good and I look out in nature and like look at the sun and just and it's like a bird chirping and this kind of thing. Like scrolling through

social media, even if it's like super positive stuff or whatever, it's still not the same feeling as a bird chirping. Bird chirping on Instagram is a different bird chirping than real life. Like cuz bird chirping on Instagram. I'll start swiping until like there's like demons of different types fighting inside my head and then I you know yeah different anxiety, insecurity, whatever the hell. Just the mixture of chaos versus the bird chirping in real life. That's beautiful. But again, that's the same thing as with with the audio book. It boils down to like, man, these people

that talk about meditation, I think that's probably they're on to something cuz like the that's what that's what it is is be able to like focus uh calmly and deliberately on a thing, whether it's reading or audio book or existence. When they sort of observe the breath, you're able to silent out everything else and remove everything else from focus. Yeah, that's a skill. I heard it put really beautifully which is that uh we in America really have misunderstood liberty because we typically have liberty as just the freedom to do whatever you want and the argument

was that it's not the freedom to do whatever you want. It's the freedom to be able to do what you will and how often is what you you actually want to do you don't do cuz you get trapped doing something that you've convinced yourself in this quick moment you want to do. And so it's like I want liberty. I want the ability to control my energy and to be able to like do the thing I want to do, not to get distracted and destroyed in all the millions of distractions. And some of us get, you

know, handed a worse deck of cards, some of us get a better deck of cards, but I don't think there's anybody that doesn't struggle with it in the technological age. Yeah, that's a skill. What What can you say to the the the skill of achieving focus in programming? like do do you have a process of how you sit down and try to sort of approach a problem? So all the different uh not just distractions but the challenges of starting a project of thinking through like the design how to maintain like real focus cuz it's really

difficult intellectual endeavor. I guess at this point I'm lucky. Uh but when I first started I can remember that every last part of programming I had to go look up. I had to go read. I had side quests at all time. Like every step was a side quest. Why is my screen blinking when I'm trying to render this thing out? Oh, I didn't know about double buffering. Why is this happening? How do I even write to the screen? How do you know? Like everything was a question. I had more questions than answers. And so I

constantly had this like the problem of side quests. And I find that to be a very exhausting thing. But as I learned my instrument very very well, I don't have as many side quests. I become more and more able to just focus on the thing I want to do. And I find that to be something that is just super super useful. So when I say I'm kind of lucky, meaning that I've spent so much of my life, preparing for this moment that now when I have the opportunity to do something, I can just do that

thing and I don't like I can be just on an airplane and I can just program for hours. I don't have to look up a single thing. I don't have to do anything. I don't even have to test the code. I can write a thousand lines of code on an airplane and I'm very confident that it's going to be 98% pretty dang good. And I'm very happy about that because that allows me just to be in the moment solving the problem I'm trying to solve. Then I have 100% of my brain power solving a problem.

And this is why I also it's the same reason why I recommend learning how to type and learning your editor so well you don't even have to think about the action because the people that have to even if you just look down that's still mental processing power. you have to spend looking at a keyboard in which you already know where the key is. Like you do, you know, at this point, if you've been typing for thousands of hours, you know where the key is. Just stop looking down. You'll learn really quickly. And so, it's like

this thing where it's like, I'm not going to spend all that time and all that mental effort like looking up the thing. I'm going to just memorize, you know, I'm just going to get it in me and then I can go fast and it feels good. And so, that's how I kind of defeat that is cuz now I get to do something where it's like there's no more questions. It's now me just expressing myself into this medium and it feels really good. I'm sure there's still like things that pull at you like curiosities like distractions

like I wonder how you know uh anytime I guess you have access to the internet you're going to like Twitter's a big one on that one. Yeah, you're going to get curious about stuff including I guess you're speaking about everything in the editors optimized but you're okay. You can always improve stuff. You can always find better sort of plugins and macros and oh let me you know what this thing that took uh this painoint I just found this tiny painoint let me spend the next 5 days creating a plugin for my editor or whatever the

fuck uh to uh remove that one painoint when you should have just kept going uh as opposed to taking the side quest. So, I have a rule. Yeah. Which is I do not edit my RC other than some kind of cataclysmic thing like someone updates a plugin and I didn't know they updated it and now there's like a hard air in my editor and I have to like move forward. Um, but I have a rule where I will edit my RC, my Neovim RC or anything once a year. Something that bothers me, I will write

it down. I'll remember it. I'll be like, "Okay, I want to change that." But I will just not go back to it. Now, every now and then I I'll break that rule if I know like, oh, I want a new remap to be able to do this one command and that takes like literally 13 seconds. Like, copy, paste, do this, bop, done. Okay, I have this new remap. It made perfect sense in this situation. But I don't go plugin exploring. I don't try to solve every problem. I don't want a perfect editor because that is

a pursuit that will never stop. I just go, this is good, good break point. I won't do it again. So, I spent last month I probably spent a 100 hours just like editing every possible thing I could about how I start up my system. Mhm. And make I can have a computer from zero to 60 in almost no time now. Everything the way I exactly want it. Neoim everything all perfectly set up. Happy enough. I'm not going to touch that system again. Maybe I'll touch it next year. Maybe I'll take a year off. You know,

it's just I'm fine with that. I'm fine with not being perfect. All right. 0 to 60. Let's talk about the perfect setup. Uh, what's your uh perfect programming setup? Keyboard, operating system, how many screens? Chair. All right, I like all these IDE. Let's go. So, keyboard. You're using my favorite keyboard right there. The Kinesis advantage. Uh, save my career. Beautiful keyboard. Uh concavity and thumb clusters are just so important cuz if you really think about it, especially if you're using querty, when you're pressing the symbols like on a standard key, you're just doing this the

whole time. Backspace, enter symbols, like you're just doing this. It just screws up your wrist constantly doing this. And this when you're constantly doing like control and shift, it's just is like messing you up. So it's just like right here. That's so much nicer in life. So keyboard most important, I'd say get that one done. For people who don't know, Kinesis keyboard, I I think the the thing that you experience the most is exactly the thing you just said now, which is the backspace is really easy to press. Yeah. Versus what it is on normal

keyboards. So backspace in general symbolizes like you're deleting a thing. It symbolizes a mistake. Not symbolizes, it usually means a mistake. And so, uh, the not only did you just make a mistake in what you were typing, you also have to take a physically painful action, annoying action. Yeah. To to to fix that mistake. And for most of us, we make a lot of mistakes. So, uh, kinesis just makes it pleasant and fast and easy physically to correct a mistake. I that's probably for me the number one reason of kinesis. everything else. Yeah, super plus

with the macros and the positioning, the concavity like you mentioned, but there mistakes are pleasant. Yeah, I'm on that team. That's why so that's why I love that. So that's I would say that's one of the most important things. The next thing I find to be very very important is that one monitor. I'm a one monitor kind of guy. What really? So when I program, when I do anything now, when I stream, I obviously have a second computer that runs the stream because, you know, I sometimes crash my computer, I have to restart it or

whatever. So, I do have a second screen there that I put stuff up, but most of the time, you'll notice that even when I'm streaming, uh, you've been there, I have to physically switch to the streaming chat channel for me to read it. And that's because I'm operating off of one screen. And so, I have this whole style in which I like to navigate, inspired by Starcraft, is that I believe in the press one key, go where you want to be mentality. And so, everything about my setup is press one key. So when I want

to go to Twitch chat, alt two, Twitch chat. When I go want to go to my browser, alt one. That's my browser. Alt three. That's where I go to my programming. That's power finger obviously. And big middle finger right there. Just smash it down. Uh alt six is going to be GIMP. So my uh GNU image manipulation program. So if I want to draw, I go there. When I used to have Slack, it was alt 5. If I have a spare terminal where I need to run some extra things, that's alt four. I had all

these kind of everything is perfectly mapped out to single key. And then when it comes down to using say T-Mox, I have all my terminals into one single terminal. And now I'm able to kind of switch between there. Uh prefix one goes to my Vim editor. Whatever project I'm in, it's always the first T-M tab, if you will. Not sure they call it a session, but not sure how to describe it if you're not familiar with T-Mox. A tab. Second one is like my spare terminal. Third one is my longrunning process terminal. My fourth one

is a longunning process terminal. I have it all set up so every project I go to automatically spawns session one Vim session two spare terminal session three will also open it so it's like everything's just ready to rock everything has been optimized to where I do that if I want to go to a project it's F in any terminal will bring up a fuzzyfind list of every one of my folders on my operating system in which I can go to with just a couple keystrokes and boom I'm in that one now and so it's like

very oriented to find where I need to be as quickly as possible via keyboard via keyboard then In Vim, I developed a plugin called Harpoon, which is I press one button and I can uh pin one of the files to like a temporary buffer. I think uh projectile is potentially close to this in Emacs. I can't remember. Projectile. I think projectile is closer to uh my sessionizing script. Anyways, uh so now I can I have four pinned files in which I can go to any of those pinned files with just a single keystroke. And so

now it's just like because every time you develop a feature, usually you have like three files. you're kind of primarily working in and I can fuzzy find for the other files and that's that. But usually I just have like these three power files that I'm always swapping in between. And so it's like now everything is just I want to go to the browser that's one press. I want to go to my workstation that's one press. I want to go to a specific folder. I need to change folders. Sometimes you work between two different um projects.

So in T-Mux that's prefix capital L will swap between your last two. So I have alternate projects. I can even swap between projects in pretty much one key. So, it's just like dude, dude, dude. Just trying to optimize it so I don't think as much because I think search fatigue is a massive fail where you have to look for like when I see people on a Mac do this and then explode all the different ones. That gives me anxiety. I'm like, why are you using your eyeballs to search for what you want to do like

make it into a key press and never think about it again ever. You're making me think a lot whether I can live with your system, whether it's better cuz it feels better. It at least intellectually feels better. may not be great for at some point. There's a few profound things you said which is like really what you're the the the number of windows or tasks you're switching between whether it's programming the number of files you're working on is small. Yeah. At any one time at any one like space of like 20 minutes or something like

that. So okay that's that's a profound truth. Sometimes we think like oh I need the full freedom to search but you don't. You usually work on a very small slice. But I guess the trade-off there, like I always have three monitors, not not when I'm traveling, but my my happy place is three monitors. It's like, do you really need all of them to be present there? So, you're turning your head. Now, the the monitors I have is two vertical ones. Okay. Which is just better for certain kinds of content. I mean, they're positioned vertically so

you can read. You can use your eyes to scan quickly. Interesting. So, I don't even do that. I even have it so zoomed in that I probably only have like maybe 25 lines of code at any one time on my 27inch monitor. Yeah, I think that's okay. I think I feel fundamentally constrained when I can't see more cuz you're your eyes are just good at jumping like okay like you could like why not search? Why not press a couple keystrokes? Control U control D jump down by up and up and down by a half page

because the ape visual system was designed to like you loading a lot of information like what if every time you have to investigate this table what's on this table you had to press a keystroke you you could develop the skill set that integrates that information but like it's really there is an effective thing where if you have a sheet of paper like this and I'm looking at it my eyes will be able to uh load in the structure of the information the the topics of the information like you just can do it faster I think

there's a big cost because you you know it's an extra monitor but there is some stuff that's vertical when vertically positioned code see code is an iffy one because code you really you 25 lines at a time I think you can do a lot this is more for like articles and especially with visual information in them or documentation, you can just jump faster. But I'm trying to as you were speaking uh so eloquently, I was like wondering, am I just like deceiving myself that I need that? Can I just keyboard shortcutify everything and just have

everything on one monitor? That's something I should probably try cuz I'm a big proponent of just automating everything with the keyboard cuz you could just move really really fast. You don't have to think. Uh, one of my, you know, cuz I also do um creative stuff like uh whether it's recording music or um video editing, it's it's hard, you know, some of these programs don't make it super easy for you. On Windows with auto hotkey, you can do quite a lot, but still there's limitations on how much you can do with the keyboard. So that's

it. It really is a pain. He has to have to use the mouse. But man, you're really making me think. It's, you know, the even the text one with the reading one. I like fundamentally I think I agree with you that you can you can see a lot more and you can kind of look up and down and see those two things. And probably in articles or things like that, I could, you know, if there's like a graph down here that's really big that take up your whole screen plus text, I could see why that

would be very beneficial to zoom out to be able to have all that information. But for me, I can only look at like a square inch. Like really that's all my eyes can actually focus on. So when I'm reading I'm right here. Then I have to like structurally try to pattern match what I think the information looks like. Then I have to start reading it. So I'm not exactly sure if I actually get any real benefit of having a lot of stuff on screen as opposed to I can relax my eyes so much. I don't

even have to focus. The words are so big like I actually program pretty zoomed in. Um my text is bigger than this when I when I program. And so it's it's just that it's so comfortable. I don't even have to exert any effort to read the code. But you have to kind of train your brain to know that you can navigate in like spatially using keys. Yeah, Neovim, by the way. Oh, maybe it has everything to do with Neoim. Okay. All right. And then Neovim's obviously the next big one. I love Neoim. Uh reason being

is that I think you can make all the arguments you want about which editor is the best. I do not think you can make an argument that Vim Motions aren't superior. Here we go. Can you explain Vim Motions? What is this? So, Neo Vim. Vim is a old school editor. Neo Vim, it's a modern take on an old school editor. Yeah. And um what's EI5? What like what does it take to work with Neo Vim? Okay. Uh I thought you were talking about a Vim Motion there. That's how you know that you know that I

I know but you know that meme that's just like, "Hey Jarvis, can I tell you about Vim Motions cuz they can't fit anything else in their head cuz they only have Vim Motions." cuz you said EL5 like explain it like I'm five but in my head it's like okay E is jumped to the end of the word L's one more like dude I'm so like broken I'm like okay vim motions when I hear letters um yeah so you can think of it like this is that Vim has a language to describe movements in text because

its primary mode of operation is manipulating or editing text so it is a wellthought through set of movements deleting yanking pasting copying all that kind of stuff that goes in motions that are optimized for working with pretty much code. Good example, say you have three lines of code you want to delete. If you're in VS Code, take your little beautiful mouse, highlight those things, press the backspace. That's lovely. Your hand left the keyboard. Very simple to do, though. It's very beginner friendly. Uh I was a huge Vim hater, by the way. So, I just want

you to know that before we go into this. I was probably the biggest Vim hater. If there is an a like Saul to Apostle Paul, I am like the Saul to Apostle Paul of Vim. Just so you you see how big the gap was. Or you can do something that's like I don't know what the VS code shortcut is, but I'm sure there's some keys you can press to delete the current line you're on. Delete, delete, delete. Right? You can just do that in Vim. I can go DAP. Delete around paragraph. All contiguous code in

that thing. I'm going to delete. So D. Then I can choose my motion. I want to take AP around paragraph. Or maybe I want a D. F mean jump up to the next character that matches the next character I'm going to press. So DF opening parenthesy will delete everything from your cursor up to the first opening parenthesy. So you get to describe your motion in these little keystrokes. And as you get really good, you know, you've seen people that can master Fortnite. It's the same thing with mastering Vim motions. When you get so good, you

no longer think about each individual movement. Instead, you're just like, get rid of the paragraph, jump here, jump this, highlight this, yank this, do this. you know, it becomes so fast that you can superiorly edit text at a very fast rate. And there comes a point where when you know your language really well, you know, the problem you're really working on really well where editing text and getting code out actually becomes one of the many bottlenecks. People always talk about, well, most of the time I think most of the time I'm not thinking I'm programming.

I know what I want to do. I want to go as fast as possible because I've been just doing it for so long and I'm so familiar with kind of the general space that it becomes a huge problem for me. I cannot tell you how many times that I've been purely bottlenecked by the fact that I just can't type fast enough. I just need to get the I just need to get it out of my head onto the, you know, onto the text editor. And so that's why I think Vim Motions are superior in all

aspects. Keep your hands on the keyboard on the home row and can manipulate text in very wide and fast ways. Oh, so this is not just about writing text. This is about modifying text. It's primarily about modifying text. Yes. And I'm sure that most editors including Emacs, including VS Code, can do all those same things. But there is something they just don't encourage you to discover those things. Yeah, that's like an important thing about a lot of technologies that and L programming languages that a lot of them can do a lot of the stuff. Yeah.

But it's something about whether it's the community or the style of the language or anything like this that encourages you to not be lazy in the beginning and learn the fast way to uh to edit text in in this particular example. Yeah. How to use the keyboard. That that's a fascinating sort of just reality of how technology is used. You want to be encouraged to find the fast thing as quickly as possible so that long term it's efficient and fun to use. It takes a long time for dividends. Like a long time. But on top

of that, notice I didn't say Vim. I'm not saying go use Vim. I'm saying Vim motions. Um, let me give you one more example. Okay, I'm a big fan. Okay, let's say you have a line that can that contains some some variable, some function you're calling something that takes in a string and you need to do that again. So you you you would typically copy that line. You'd paste that line below. You'd go into the string and you change the string. Let's say it's calling some sort of configuration. You need to call it three times

with three different configuring strings. In Vim, I can I like to do shift V to highlight the whole line. Then Y. Some people do Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y But I don't like to do double ones. I like to be able to do

two different fingers because you can do that way faster than one finger twice. It's just a little optimization for me cuz you can't press that as fast. So anyways, very optimized in my approach. So I yank the line, paste the line, CI double quotes will delete everything inside the first occurring string. Then I can type the string, escape, save. And so it's like so optimized that I can just jump so fast in between that. Whereas the copying and pasting line is probably the same speed, but the navigating to the string, deleting what's currently in the

string and then you know like that's such a fast motion in Vim. And I just do that all the time. To backtrack, really dumb question. Uh CI, what's the difference between typing the letters and using the letters to navigate and edit? How do you switch between the two modes? Okay, so insert mode means that you're just putting in text. Yep. And then uh normal mode means that you're moving your cursor. And how do you switch between the two? Uh escape. Escape goes from insert mode into normal mode. And uh to go into insert mode, press

I to take your current cursor and go to the beginning. A to go to the end of your cursor. Capital A to go to the end of the line. Capital I to go to the beginning line. O to put a new line below and then put your cursor at the proper intented for the language. Shift O to shift your current line down. And then put a new line in. Like you can see there's there's like I'm pressing escape a lot. Yeah. I mapped mine. I do cr except for in one edge case. People hate that.

I got used to it just due to the fact that I was using Intelligj and I really hate pressing the escape key. So, I just got used to pressing a So, that seems like an essential thing to do if you're using Neoim to map escape to something. Cap lock would be like your standard go-to. Oh, yeah. I map it to cool. I got you. Yeah. So, then it's just really easy to press it. Boom, boom, boom. Not a big deal at all. Uh, but yeah, I think that if you're willing to learn it, the motions

are superior. But if you're not willing to learn it, then they're not superior. You should just not do it. Right? If you're willing to endure pain, it's good. If you're not, it's it's actually way worse. It's 100 times worse, right? So, if you like paying, you use Neoim. Totally. Yeah. You're totally Now you get it. If you like Joy, you use Emac. So, Oh, sorry. Sorry. Did Emacs ever get a good text editor? I know they're a great operating system, but I never caught up if they got a good text editor. Operating system. I I

think you've been miseducated, my friend. So, at least 30 minutes on Emacs versus Neovim is what Reddit um requested. Have you actually used Emacs in order to be able to talk so much shit or No, I used it for a year. You used it for a year? Yeah. Yeah. Doom, Space Max, and regular Emacs. But you don't know Lisp. So, you did you really use it? I I kind of hacked my way through kind of like, okay, so this is how the config, you know, like you kind of get your way through and do all

that. So you recommend to sort of mastering U of M and really learn the depths of it, but Emacs is okay to just kind of use before making a judgment. I think I think everybody you got me on that one. Yeah. No. Uh and what's new written is Lua. Yeah. So Lua would be the configuration language, but you have uh it's written in C, but you have Lua for and Lua is just a dead simple language. Anyone can program Lua. I actually don't know why. I think it's because my love for Lisp that I went

with Emacs. I think you just choose a path and you walk down that path. Mhm. And uh because there's just such a vibrant intense battle between the two communities, you just start fighting just because everybody else is fighting and then one day you're like an old warrior like on a horse and you're wondering what what was this all for? And uh I mean it's it's quite sad in all seriousness that I haven't to this day tried Neoim. It's uh I think because there is a learning curve. There's a learning curve to a lot of these

editors. Yeah. To really like to really learn it to really learn it. And I think there this is some of the criticism of maybe VS Code or Sublime or Adam, but that it's so easy to not learn it to just kind of halfass use it. And there is a big uh benefit to having editors that like force you to have some learning curve where you like take the art the the science the procedure of editing seriously cuz like you spend so much time in it. You might as well like learn like how to use the

the thing. My big takeaway really like what I'm trying to say with all these words is that I honestly don't actually think that the editor obviously does not make the programmer. But I think it says a lot about your character as a programmer if you don't know how to use your editor well. There's something about a person who's willing to commit their life to programming and spending literally 50,000 hours doing an activity over the course of their lifetime and never take the time to learn their editor through and through. It just seems strange like right

you'd never see that in another world where people would be able to build something or do something and just completely forget how these things work and only just focus on one part of like their craft. And so to me, it's just like it doesn't matter how you use it. I want to see the person that just knows how to use it and they know how to use it well. When there's a problem, they can say why the problem exists and they can go and fix the problem. To me, that's like there you go. You've done

it. You now know your tool. Go forth and conquer with said tool. Especially for tools you use a lot. You have to look at like your whole life, your life, whatever. If you're a developer or anything like what is the thing you do a lot? Meetings. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sorry, keep going. Keep going. Ask a question like how can this be done a lot better? Cuz every single day you do this for hours a day. How many hours did you spend on thinking how to do this better or whether to do it at all

in the case of meetings? That's the people surprisingly just don't do this enough. I see this just to go back to jiu-jitsu. There's a lot of people that show up and do jiu-jitsu or martial arts and they do it the same way over and over and over and they invest tremendous amount of energy and they don't ask like how do I do it differently to improve faster in the case of jiu-jitsu or any kind of sport. Same with practicing the piano or the guitar. They don't they just religiously put in a lot of time and

uh derive a lot of joy from getting better. They don't enough ask the meta question of like how can I do this better? And with editors it's surprisingly how how often people do just that. Yeah. With typing it's surprising how many people do just that. Like you said they they like they're pecking or looking down. It's like the the quality of life improvement you can have by learning to touch type by just like typing without looking. It's like it's it's it's like immeasurable. You're bringing a lot of joy to your life because all of us

are typing a lot. Yeah. And uh yeah, I mean uh the the reason by the way I I was extremely efficient with Emacs. I'm I'm sure, you know, all jokes aside, I it feels like Neoim has more room for the kind of efficiency I've had with Emacs to be able to move really fast as you're describing to edit. There is a real joy. It's not just efficiency, it's a it's like um yeah, it's a freedom that you can get when you get really good with an editor. Uh the reason I chose to go with VS

Code is it it felt like there's going to be uh an acceleration of features to which Neo Vim or Emacs will not be able to catch up in the and I don't mean in the next 5 years I mean in the next 30 years like and it felt like I almost wanted to take the pain of learning new editors constantly and just switching and learning that cuz I was getting so comfortable in EMX you know this with this keyboard everything all the shortcuts because I know how to program and it felt like this is not

you know neoim will not be here in 50 years possibly might be I don't know but it felt like you want to learn these constant sort of different technologies you know cursor isam a great example of that of primarily am using cursor now I'll go back to VS code and cursor the just the skill of using AI is a real skill like you know with from the shortcuts to the the timing to the layout of the windows to how I think about where, when, and how to use AI that it doesn't distract me, that it

empowers me, not just for the fuck of it or for the fun of it, for the actual measure of productivity. It's a skill. And I feel like I would be stuck in local maximum of comfort if I stayed with Emacs. And maybe the same should be true for for me with Neo of him. I should I should try it. Seriously, I'm sure there's a plugin like a co-pilot type of situation that you could set up with Neo. I should uh possibly consider that. But like cursor is doing a lot of really fascinating stuff on the

IDE side, not just sort of generate code and uh like edit that code manually. It's like continuously be able to rewrite code. It's like the idea of tap tap tap tap move the cursor around but also modify parts of code and do the diff really nicely that whether it's cursor or VS code that wins that battle out with with with co-pilot I don't know but like that feels like a fun with a different experience than the really efficient joyful experience that you just described and you're selling me on this as Neoim that doesn't have an

AI in the picture obviously immediately but you can yeah absolutely I would 100% agree that cursor seems like such a cool product. Like I I actually think there's like a lot of really neat things coming down with all that. And I could, you know, I could change from neovim. I don't use neoim because I love neovim. I use neovim because I love the instrument I play. And so it's like if cursor can meet those needs, I I could see myself moving over. I don't have a some sort of obsessed attachment with it. I am curious

though that, you know, every time I use AI, I think I just have skill issues. I think I'm just so riddled with skill issues when it comes to using AI. I've yet to be able to use it in a way that I really love it. Uh, we we'll talk about it, but before then, oh, ball to sit on. I forgot to say that. Ball to sit on. Yeah. Desk needs to be properly heighted. One monitor, I should be two/ird way up the screen. Uh, I don't like to turn my head. I prefer my uh my

hands in kind of like a pistol neutral position. And there you go. A ball to sit on. Yoga ball. Yoga ball. What's that about? It just helps just maintain good posture because when I have something to lean against, I do this. So you're for hours sitting without Wait, what are you doing? I sit on a ball and then I bounce. Are you Is your back leaning on a thing? No. What the fuck? Well, how else do you like the How else do you You're the only person in the world sitting on a yoga ball as

you program for hours. You do realize this, right? It feels great. I mean, okay. I I the problem is is whenever I get a back um I just slouch and I find myself just getting uncomfortable and I'm like, why am I I'm uncomfortable. Like my my shoulders are kind of getting goofed up. I just like I I'm chicken necking like constantly like, you know, it's just like But you're able to keep your posture for hours on a yoga ball. Yeah. And so I can just do that and then I find myself if I slouch I'm

like, "Okay, nope. Got to get back." You know, you have like incredible back muscles or what? No, I I Well, I I don't think it takes incredible back muscles to keep posture, remain upright. Yeah, I think that's a pretty basic human function. I'm I would not consider myself a strong person. Yeah, basic human function. I don't know. Facts and logic. Okay, cool. With uh one screen, Neo Vim with operating system Linux. Uh just because I I want a good window manager. That's the whole press one button, bring up Chrome. I just use i3. I'm sure

I could uh use something better than i3. People always tell me all these window managers are really great, but I just want I just have like those three screens I switch between. So, it doesn't really I don't really care what I use as just long as I can press one button and go. Yeah, I'm the same. So, half and half. So, half Linux, the other half Windows with with Linux, meaning uh WSL. What's that? Windows subsystem for Linux. Weasel Weasel. See, no. There's got to be a better one that's more positive. Weasel just sounds seems

right up Microsoft's alley. That seems perfect. Uh, so people often accuse me of being a shill for somebody. Uh, sometimes dictators. If I'm a shill for anybody, it's for Windows. There you go. I get paychecks every every week from uh, bought by Bill Gates. Well, he's not Microsoft anymore. Balmer developers developers. about. No, I'm just joking. I think um man, I need to try Mac. I need to I need to try. I'm surrounded I'm surrounded by people with iPhones. I use Android. I use Android. Yeah, there you go. See? Oh, we're losers together. Losers on

a sinking ship. Um okay. So, uh just to to stay on you for a sec and uh to give love and a shout out to your friend Tee. He streams, by the way. He's a streamer and I'm I subscribed and I've been enjoying it. My allegiance is slowly shifting from you to him. It's um the quality is far superior with him. Uh the the looks, the intelligence, the skill set, everything just far superior. No. Okay. So, he uh you know, you're making his day. All right. So, uh, he mentioned that he loves Neoim because it

gives him the ability to eliminate having to do things he doesn't like. It's just a nice way to to frame sort of what this the automation process that you describe of automating away assigning shortcuts to things that are painful. So, that that that procedure I mean I wonder if you agree with that. Fully agree. We have very similar mentalities when it comes to usage of Neoim, why people should use it, all that kind of stuff, and how to even use it. Well, he definitely takes it probably to a further degree. He spends more time automating

and all that. Um, I don't necessarily derive a lot of joy from getting the perfect setup and so, but a lot to learn from. He's he's very, very good at what he does. He is by far probably one of these he's 30 years old, been programming for not too many years, and he is one of the most talented developers for sure. It's very shocking to see how smart someone can be. So, uh, people should check him out at te ej dv. Yep. T DV. His name, his last name is Dere Dise. D. Oh, it's not

a developer. Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's just TJ. That's just his name. Just spelled kind of fun. What do you love about him? Wow. How much did he pay you to ask these questions? Thousands of dollars. Just so many. Um, I can't even count that many dollars. Uh he is uh trust obviously trust is the biggest thing especially in the quote unquote streaming YouTube kind of world if you will. It's very easy to find people that will want to like be a part of stuff. People tend to latch on to things and it's very

hard to find someone that you can really really trust. And so he's just somebody whom I can genuinely trust. He will always tell the truth. He's all he's all the right things for a good friend in this kind of endeavor. So, as a good friend, he told me um questions I could backstab you with. Okay. I hate him. I forgot. I forgot how much I don't trust him. Uh so, speaking of Harpoon, you mentioned it. Um he said, you know, to to ask you about uh whether basically how many years or decades is going to

take to transition to Harpoon 2 to actually release it, develop it, and so on. Can you describe what Harpoon is and why you're seem to be incapable of finishing a single project? Okay, that was a lovely framed question. So, Harpoon 2 is actually done. This is what I did to avoid the swirl and the thousands of questions I will inevitably get. I kept the master branch as harpoon one and I have kept Harpoon 2 as harpoon 2 branch. And people that don't read the read me to say that I just use harpoon 2 now, that's

that's their fault. Uh that's it. I just don't want I I really don't like answering hundreds of questions about open source stuff. Uh I used to love doing open source and all that, but I kind of got my soul crushed during the Falor years and so I I guess I'm just kind of allergic to being a really active maintainer. Um I built everything just for me. Like Harpoon's just literally just built for me. It's just what I I spent three months trying to figure out the most optimal navigation for files and that's what I came

up with. So Harpoon um it's a take on alternate file. If you're familiar with alternate file, uh typically you'll have this in all editors where you can go back to the file you were just in. And so that means you can have effectively two files you swap back and forth. And you probably used it a bunch. Really fast way to navigate. Pretty nice thing to do. Um I wanted something with I want alternate file, but like three of them or four of them. And so that's all harpoon is is just being able to pin a

file. And so I have one button to press to go to a file, another for another, another for another. And so I can have up to four. So I just had my four power fingers uh for D'vorak. What is that? That's htns. So if I go control htn or s, it goes to one of the four files. And that's it. That's all it is. And you could technically make it so you can add in functions and be able to execute things externally. So you can open up uh terminals, you can send requests off to servers,

you can do anything you want with it. I just have it primarily designed for opening files. Since you mentioned, what keyboard layout do you use? You use Dorak. I use D'vorak, but I used a custom version of D'vorak. The reason why I used it is in 2017 we were just having my second kid. It was Christmas and I'm having so much pain in my arm and I'm sitting there freaking out like, "Oh my gosh, is this the end of my career? Am I done programming? Is this all over?" And so I decided that I was

going to create my own keyboard layout optimized to prevent the pain that I'm experiencing. So I used a D'voric as the bass and then laid out the symbols in a symmetrical reasonable way so that it's opening closing opening closing opening closing right and so it's and they all are right here. I actually have to hold shift to press a number. So symbols are actually my first thing I get to press. And so it's very optimized for a um laptop keyboard layout. So I can use my laptop in a very efficient nice way. That's how I

got started on D'Vorak and all that. I wouldn't actually recommend it if you because I didn't have a Kinesis at the time. I didn't even know Kinesis existed at that time. And so when I discovered Kinesis and also 2017, that's when I was like, "Oh, okay." Would you recommend Kinesis to people? I am technically sponsored by Kinesis. So, uh, people, you know, it's hard for someone to believe someone that's sponsored by it. But I did use it before I ever became sponsored. They're the only sponsor that I reached out to and said, "I need a

sponsorship from you. You are the key. I'm going to use you either way. Yeah, you don't. You can say no, but I really love it. And for the first 3 years of using Kinesis, they gave me free Kinesises. Kissi as my sponsorship. Kissi. Yeah, I'm always torn. I tried to leave so many times. You can't. It's too good. But see, I have this absurd situation of like traveling with it. I I relate. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I'm literally, you know, going to the war zone in Ukraine. Have a Kinesis keyboard, a laptop, and like just

a few other small things, and that's it. And it's like, is Kinesis keyboard really going to be 30% of volume that you're bringing to a war zone? You know, looks like the answer is yes. Yeah. Like, do you really derive that much value? Um, I think it's probably spiritual or psychological for me. It feels like home. It's there's comfort associated with it. Yeah. I try to leave. Man, I love this experience. You just are. It's like a relationship you have with the thing. It is. It's uh is it but I'm trying to figure out if

it's a toxic relationship or not. Um I think it's mostly love. I think it's love like all relationship. There's some, you know, push and pull complications. But they say that distance makes the heart grow fonder. So maybe sometimes the Kinesis keyboard needs to stay at home and the laptop keyboard can be the one so that your heart grows even more fond and that connection grows even deeper. I already miss it as you said. So I don't know. I think it's coming coming along to all the trips. If it breaks down though, you know, I was

worried that Kinesis would shut down as a company. I'm like what's the business model here? Who actually uses these keyboards, right? But apparently it's still going strong. Uh who uses these keyboards as you use the keyboard? Like I have to take it with me everywhere. I wonder who uses these keyboards. Yep. I should mention that one of the things when I first became a fan of yours, I heard you talk about coffee and terminal. I still don't, by the way, understand what you're talking about. I need to actually use it. But you are you run

amongst many things a coffee company. Uh man, this smells so good. Uh, so this one is dark mode, dark roast, whole coffee, beans. There is, uh, Seg origin-lo. There's a bunch of stuff on there. Stuff on there that's very devi shop server web. Can you legit order coffee via SSH? So, as of right now, it's the only way you can get the coffee is by SSH. That was kind of Okay. So, can I just or origin story you? Yeah. Yeah. Uh yeah, right. I was going to do some kind of um command line command to

request or like d-help or something or like man Yeah. Man coffee man coffee. Okay, so TJ and I again same teach teach TV about by the way very amazing designs done by David Hill. They're very very good. Yeah. Um, so let me kind of give the basic ideas like it must have been about a year and a half ago TJ and I were talking like, "Hey, you know, every one of these people that have like some sort of following, some sort of online presence. They're always like selling a thing, but I got nothing to sell.

I don't really want to do merch. I've never really enjoyed doing merch. I just find that I don't know. It's just not as much fun for me." Don't want to have a tequila. I don't I don't want a tequila. want something that and I also want something that I really don't feel bad about selling. You know, there's like a lot of people that will go on the internet and they'll show for a whole bunch of products like, "Oh, okay. Try this. Try this." And this is why I've only ever really done Kinesis is because it's

like, "Well, I can point to something that was really bad in my life. I was very scared and now it's not bad anymore." So, it's like, "Okay, that one made sense." But everything else always has been, you know, it's harder for me. And so, we just talked for so long and and we love Neoim. So, we're just like, "Oh, what if we could do something from Neovim?" And we're kind of like laughing about that. Like, ordering from Neovim is just so ridiculous. Mhm. And then at some point, we're just like, "Well, what? Wait a second."

And maybe we could do like coffee. Like, every developer loves coffee. Maybe we could figure out this coffee business. And so, I have a good friend named Dax. Uh, THDXR. Dax. Yeah. Dax. Uh, he the most sassiest man alive. Sassiest. Oh, yeah. He has a lot of sass. Beard. Yep. He has a beard. Very uh ve he does SST. He does a lot of stuff. Very very talented. Uh we'll call him DevOps engineer. He's more than that. But um very talented guy. Him and another person named Adam. Vegan by the way. Great guy. We make

we take him to Korean barbecue all the time. He eats nothing. Um and Liz, she has been super important to the terminal coffee company. I think without her we would not have been able to do what we have done. And then also David Hill designer. He does uh uh Laravel. He designs for Laravel. Very talented designer. And so we all kind of came together and we were just laughing about how can we like could we do something that's just ridiculous. Mhm. And that's kind of what we came up with. Yeah. Like there you go. You

just open the website. You actually you literally cannot order. We we actually do not allow you to order. The website is uh something that kind of looks like the terminal. Use command below to order your delicious whole coffee bean. SSH terminal.shop. Yeah. So, you can only SSH into it. So, you have to copy that command and throw it in there. If you want to add in the little terminal shop for your known host, you could do that. How do you handle payment? Uh through Stripe. And so, one of the things we'll be adding a mobile

checkout to where it'll show a QR code in the terminal and you can just like check out on your phone. But right now, you enter in your credentials, it goes to Stripe via all terminal like all terminal. Yeah. SSH is obviously it stands for secure shell. It uses elliptical, you know, uh quantum safe algorithms to ensure that your data is not being intercepted. Yeah. But does he use AI? I'm pretty sure DAX uses AI. So that you said quantum. So I don't know. Quantum AI. Can this fusion? Quantum AI. Can this even be a a

company if it's not using AI? We have some crypto chains with some quantum AI that's, you know, powered by Fusion. So it's pretty it's pretty wild. Anyway, so yeah, we just kind of came together where we thought, what is the mo that was from the Mike Tyson fight. All right, Mike, it was literally that night Mike Tyson kissed the reporter and then walked out. Yeah. Without any uh clothes. We did an ad for somebody. But nice. We decided to make a coffee shop and then we thought instead of just making it neim, what if we

made it from SSH cuz everybody has SSH. You have VS Code, launch VS Code. You can order coffee from within VS Code, right? cuz your little bottom terminal has access to SSH. Bada bing, bada boom. It's kind of fun. And so we kind of really I love this. We just wanted to do something where there's no level and there's no world that makes me feel bad about selling this and people buying it. It's good ethical coffee. We we developed the entire supply chain and everything. It's all packaged. It's all boutique. It's all really like it's

pretty high-end coffee. It tastes really really good. At this point, I don't like drinking other coffee. I get kind of upset about it cuz it's not as good. And so it's kind of funny that I've I've fallen for my own stuff. I'm high on my own supply pretty hard right now. Uh I just got done ordering 16 bags and gave it out to my family to try to convince them. But it's just something where it's like you I didn't sell you a software product that's going to influence your startup that could potentially lead to disaster.

I didn't convince you to do a bunch of stuff that's going to change your career. I just said, "Hey, here's some coffee." And it just like it's it's like a fun experience. Yeah, it's fun. everything. The humor on is great. Yeah. Uh people should go to terminal.shop and sh terminal.shop. I'm speaking to people that don't know what SSH is and there you can read the command and then figure out how to use SSH in order to I mean it's a kind of documentation right on the website. If you can't use SSH, you probably should just

not worry about buying our coffee. Like that's the whole Well, you can learn. You can learn you. If you are active and you're a computer person, you'd like to launch the terminal and feel like a hacker, go for it. We even have subscriptions. Uh what I what I would love to see this this how it came up I think on the on the cursor conversation is that uh I would love it if an AI agent you know did this like u anthropics computer use or something like that actually took the action of ordering the coffee

while it was programming. Yeah. Like hey order me some coffee and it actually go off. Give me dark roast order coffee. It could actually go through the whole flow of ordering. Yeah. The whole flow. But even better if you didn't ask it to order coffee, you asked it to do something. And as a tangent, as a side quest, it did that, which is computer use does that, right? They showed off that it it's able to go to I think uh uh like Google for some images, take a pause, and then continue doing other stuff. Anyway,

yeah, super cool idea. Love it. Speaking of which, let's talk about AI. All right. you've been both sort of positive and negative on on the role of AI in the in the whole programming software engineering experience as it stands today. What do you think uh what's your general view about AI? Uh what is it effective at? What is it not so good at? Okay. So my general view is it it comes down to something that's pretty simple which is that if you're doing something in which is very predictable AI is really nice. When you're doing

something that is just not predictable AI is not very nice to use. If you're using anything that's more cutting edge AI will not be using it or AI won't be very good at doing stuff with it. like it's it's not great at Zigg because Zig is just like say less documented. It's really great at Typescript. Uh I think there's a lot of there's a lot of interesting things that are going to come down through AI that I think a lot of people aren't really prepared for or thinking through. Uh TJ's kind of the genesis of

this idea, but the idea that um I think there's going to be a lot of kind of market manipulation, if you will, through AI, meaning like, hey, you want to research, say, best woodworking tools. Well, someone's going to be buying an ad spot. Someone's going to be buying premium trade train training data, right? They're the ones that get the uh the big boosts in the LLM, but LLMs don't really have to market as an advertisement because it's not really directly an advertisement. They just had a more premium spot, per se, in the training data, a

little bit extra learning to it. You know, it's like there's a lot of things about AI that I I fear upcoming. Uh a lot of it just comes down to people not uh learning or making the trade-off where productivity is the only thing that matters. And I don't think productivity is the only thing that matters. If you want to build something complex and difficult, productivity is not the only thing. You actually are going to have to do deep learning and kind of pursue it beyond the basics. And so I see AI as kind of like

this really cool thing. It it feels like a magic trick. I remember the first time I used it, I got early access to GitHub Copilot. Nat, in fact, Nat Friedman saw my Twitch clip of me asking GitHub for it and he sent me early access himself. It was awesome. And when I used it, it predicted an if statement correct. And my mind was just absolutely blown because I had nothing before then. And now it's just like first time ever. And I just remember thinking, man, this is going to change programming so much. And then the

more I used it, the more I just for me personally, I kept introducing bugs and I couldn't figure out why. And what I realized is that I kind of developed I wasn't co-piloting well. I was autopiloting much better. and my ability to read code versus my ability to critically think and write code. They're definitely different sets of skill levels. I don't consider as well when I just read code as opposed to when I write code. And so I I struggled there. I do think that's a skill set. Yeah, skill issue for sure. Skill issue for

people who are not aware that's like a hashtag thing sometimes use mockingly. In this case, there's like several layers. Mockingly, but also seriously. Yeah. meaning like the criticism is grounded in the fact that you lack the skill versus of some kind of fundamental truth. Yes, I think that uh that's the reason I use actually copilot cursor a lot is for developing the skill of editing AI so I can just learn how to do that better and better because I think as I do that better and better I start to utilize AI better at this time

it is a bit of a boilerplate code thing. Mhm. Uh but you can do out of the box kind of novel design decisions or tricky design decisions from scratch but fill out stuff uh using uh AI and then just learn the skill of modifying. I personally just it's more fun to program with AI. Even when I delete a lot of the code, it's more fun. It's uh less lonely. It's more it's uh what I imagine like pair programming to be and I've never done it. But the it just feels like that uh friction that you

get when you're like staring at an empty thing is not there like empty function, empty uh empty class. It's just more fun, less lonely. And I do think that a lot of the easier type of coding it really helps with like interacting with APIs. Mhm. Um basic things that I would usually have to look up to Stack Overflow for. Uh it's just really fast at that. Like as example, just interacting with the YouTube API. Uh the YouTube API documentation is not very good and you can just load it all in there and ask it to

generate a set of functions that access the API do all kinds of read and write operations and it figures it all out and then you could just well you do have to read you have to read and check everything and you start to develop the skill of understanding where it misinterpreted the task. So you're what is that skill? I don't even know. You have to kind of be empathic about what the AI is what its limitations are. A lot of the times that has to do with um uh prompt engineering. You have to like at

the same time uh understand what the AI is aware of like what did you actually give it as data to be able to generate the code. A lot of times we don't realize that we're not giving it enough information. So you have to like actually okay all right you have to like be empathic be like okay these are the code the files it's aware of this is the specifics of the question you asked it like you have to like imagine you're an intern that doesn't know anything else like often times we want the AI to

like figure out the things that's left un unspoken but you you can't know those things you have to like specify those things and so you have to actually be much more deliberate and rigorous in the things you specify is to spell it out. And so I just have this like sea of prompts that I have saved up and I'm building these like library of different templates for prompts and it's a mess. And I'm sure there's a lot of developers that have this similar kind of mess. So a lot of it has to do longterm with

the tooling that's going to improve that. One, the systems are going to get much more intelligent where you don't need the nuance. And two, there's going to be the tooling that allows you to specify those things and load it in correctly and give all the context that the system needs in order to make the good decisions. And maybe the system asks you follow-up questions. Wait, here's things you didn't make clear. All that kind of stuff. A lot of that has to do with the interface, with the actual design of the tools, like we said with

cursor. It's going to keep getting better and better and better. So my sense is like uh developers in general should be learning this to see uh to not be left behind to see what how they can be used uh to super as a superpower to to boost their productivity their effectiveness their joy of programming versus like uh be seen as a competitor to them or something like that. So, but I you know I for me already uh it's been it's it's it's been a big boost to productivity like actual like if you measure the actual

how quickly you're able to get a thing done. Mhm. It's been a big and uh measured not across minutes and hours but days also like sometimes there's things I have to do that are not that important that I'll just like out of procrastination will push off. And AI helps me actually get it done. Like actually cuz like that thing, the empty page like I mentioned before, it helps me write the thing, get it done, get it tested, like ship the thing. Um maybe it's just because it's just less lonely to work with an AI. I

don't know. I don't know if any of that made sense, but it all made perfect sense. I really do like that phrase, it makes it less lonely. I think there's something to that that's kind of interesting having just some level of interaction that's not just like an LSP autocomplete. Yeah. And you're like, "Oh, wow. That's like that's a way different approach I would have taken. Hey, that's kind of cool. I like these kind of things." And the thing is I'm not like a AI negative person. I I can see why people really really like it.

Um I just haven't like I just every time I I used Copilot for from when Nat gave me the uh access all the way up until about 6 months ago. Like that's how I used it for quite some time and I really I really did enjoy the things I used out of it. It just never it kind of did the opposite for me. I felt like I was more reviewing than writing and I felt like I was more kind of just letting things slide or I just didn't really think too heavily about stuff and it

just I wasn't as engaged and so I'm like okay so something's kind of wrong here. And that's just like a me personal thing. So I I recognize that is not how someone should approach these things. That's not a good reason for why you should or should not use AI. Like I just don't think that that's right cuz I could probably correct that and figure out a better way to do it. I've been meaning to have another AI round. And so I've been thinking about like maybe I just need to spend like two weeks in cursor

and just like fully embrace what does it mean to be somebody like this? And and god what can I do with this like these new powers? Have they improved to the point where they're actually good? And I mean for me cuz like a lot of the decisions I make a lot of the little functions I'm writing it's not cuz I'm trying to write this function to solve this problem. it's cuz I'm writing these functions or this set not just to solve this problem, but because I know in about another 2,000 lines of code of building

all these other things, I'm going to need to start doing this next activity. So, it's like I'm trying to like really try to chess move myself into the exact things that as I let things go faster, I kind of fall apart on that chess move. And again, skill issues for on my behalf. And I mean in the truest sense of the word where it's like I'm making a critique because I don't use it well enough. The better you are at programming, I don't know if this is a general rule, this is my anecdotal data. The

better you are at programming, the less you want to use the AI, the more gets in the way. Like the good programmers, fair enough as far as I can tell. So like the more sort of beginner programmers are much more happy to use AI, you know, I when I use AI, it's for basic like for just like I I don't know if there's a better term. It's not boilerplate, but it's like pretty easy programming. And that kind of programming is much easier to do. Like the sort of the 10x, not to use the meme, sort

of programmers that I know that are ultra productive and brilliant people, they just they hate AI. They're like, "This is no nowhere close to what's needed." So that there's something to that. I still think they should be using AI just for the learning. Yeah. Because it's going to get smarter. It's going to get better. And it's the same thing. is like when you when you super optimize Neoim or super optimize Emacs, you may not discover the new things that are in the pipeline. So, it's it's always good to be sort of training in that way.

Let me ask you a question here just kind of for my understanding. You talked about this idea that you have all these kind of LLM kind of prompts all like this big backlog of messy LL prompts that you kind of have these templates for that you can do various actions. You probably you have these strategies of making it self-explain itself and then do the right thing, right? like you have, as far as I can tell, that's that's really built into a lot of people. Well, then you make this phrase where you're like, but then at

some point the interface is going to get better and maybe it can do a lot of these things better where I won't need that. Then my question is, well, is anyone actually falling behind for not using AI then? Because if the interface is going to change so greatly that all of your habits need to fundamentally change and it will be able to clarify and make all those statements, have I actually fallen behind at all? or will the nextG like actually just be so different from the current one that it's kind of like, yeah, you're you're

over there like actually doing punch card AI right now. I'm going to come in at compiler time AI. So different that it's like what's a what's a punch card? Uh so obviously open question. It's a fascinating one. I personally think yes, you're you're falling behind. Not you, but could be could be me. If you're not playing with it, you're falling behind. Because the thing I'm doing with the prompts is you're learning, you're building up like this intuition about how AI works. You you're understanding like what is its strengths and weaknesses? Not the even the current

version, but the next version and so on. Like what uh what does it mean to teach an AI system about the world? like what kind of uh information does it need to make effective decisions. I think that does transfer to smarter and smarter models. You'll need to make uh less rigorous and specific and details instructions over time, but you still have to have that kind of thing. Yeah. I think it's a skill of almost empathy with an AI system because it doesn't know there the uh you know what it's missing? It's missing like common sense.

It's missing long-term memory. A lot of things when we talk to other humans, they have a basic common sense about reality like and AI systems often lack that kind of common sense and they also don't remember things. So you have to like realize there's a constant blank uh blank slate happening. So, it's almost like a just a skill of talking to an AI system that uh that I'm training. And by having to write all those prompts and communicating back and forth to understand what kind of prompts work better or not, you build up that intuition.

And also just raw the skill of reading somebody else's code. Maybe for people who work on large teams, that's a skill that's already developed. For me, not so much. So learning how to modify the code that somebody else written is uh is a real skill. And also the other thing you mentioned which is like considering another perspective on a piece of code is really nice but it is also a skill to understand okay this is what you did there. There's a skill to asking a question about that code that's been generated uh such that you

can have a conversation about the approach that was taken. I think there's just a lot of subtle little skills involved in a cooperative endeavor to code. Um kind of like there was a real skill issue between you and Te when you guys did the video of 28s one keyboard, right? Uh people should go watch that video where like you guys obviously sucked at it. Yeah. Co-using. That was pretty cool what you guys did which is controlling one new interface from two different keyboards. Yeah. And then we each get an allowance of certain characters or motions

we could perform. Yeah. And so you both had to like communicate together. That that's a real skill. I'm sure you can get super like super efficient with that. But it takes it just takes time to learn that kind of thing. So yeah, I think uh there's some value to it. But I I think there's a learning curve. So I have So I I wanted I do want one thing to be pretty clear is that I actually use AI quite a bit. I just don't use it for programming. And so one thing I've been trying to

get to is to be able to have like a long interview or understand what Twitch chat is saying and become Twitch chat and be able to speak as if it is Twitch chat. Try to like learn how to prompt it in different ways. And so I think those things for me are just really fun. I tried to get it to learn how to play tower defense. I made a tower defense game in Zig and then made it play tower defense and then played uh Claude 3.5 against open AI. Claude 3.5 would do better during the

day times and Open AI did better during the night times. I don't know why. I don't I have no idea what was going on there, but just one would just start winning and the other one would start losing. It was just very strange. And so it's just this, you know, I'm learning to prompt well, but I'm learning to prompt in a very different axi. I just don't find it very useful yet in programming. programming and I should also say that I'm using it uh in yeah in every walk of life in every context I use

that same kind of exploration about prompts and so on I'm using and learning I I think it legit is a whole field in itself prompt engineering and how to interact with AI systems I think it's worth the investment can you actually speak to that because you I saw you're you're basically pulling from Twitch chat chat and having an LLM speak. I didn't realize I thought you're So, you're not reading the exact chat messages. Yeah. You're you're doing kind of some kind of summarization. Yeah. So, what I I I try to go through like a I

end up making like eight queries off to OpenAI where it's just like the first thing is I have it have it like a default personality. Hey, you're Randall, the manager. You're a software engineering manager. Kind of explain their position, what they like, what they don't like. and then be like, "These are the list of thoughts you have in your head and you need to talk to this person and ask them a question like give me 10 of these responses that you think are probably thoughts that you have and you want to ask." Yeah. You know,

like make it kind of give you a list and then be like, "Okay." Then reprompt be like, "Hey, you're Randall. You're this, this, this, this, this, this." you have these 10 questions before you and now you need to select one of them and reword it in a way that sounds more like you the engineering manager you know and so you're like you know I'm constantly trying to make it like iterate on itself as opposed to just like one-shotting it and I found if I iterate too much it becomes like it loses the val it like

loses what it was originally trying to ask if I don't do it enough and it's just too degenerate from Twitch chat and so it's like I I have a lot of improvement to do with this idea just to clarify you're feeding in Twitch chat. These are the thoughts you're you're a manager. These are the thoughts you have in your head. Pick out some of the most profound thoughts effectively. It's like depending on what I wanted to do. I'm trying to work on a better system still for and so it's like how can I give voice

to Twitch chat? Can I make it so that I can get create adversarial characters against Twitch chat or for Twitch chat? Can I incorporate YouTube? All that kind of stuff. And like how do you describe to an LLM to roleplay into its position? And so, you know, just thinking through those kind of things and, you know, so maybe I am having some prompt skills, but just, you know, it's just not in the coding world yet. Sure. One day, one day I'll get there. I saw that you were having like playing with different voices. There was

like a sexy that started off as a French voice and then it turns out 11 Labs just cannot do a French lady. And when you do multilingual French lady, she starts Yeah. talking. I was like, what? I tuned into one of your streams and there was just this lady like like in a in a sexualized way. It became too funny. And so we call her not French Stormmy Daniels. Oh, nice. Yeah. But I want to go back to the AI and and and and some of the aspects. And so like my big gripe with AI

has nothing to do with its capabilities. It's exactly capable as it should be capable because that's what people programmed it as. The things that I really dislike is a there's a whole group of people that are just like the end is nigh. AI is here. You just need to stop programming. Like I I cannot see I cannot tell you even on like uh you mentioned Peter Levels earlier, he made some sort of tweet and one of the person's responses was yeah no one in this like in 2025 or whatever should be acquiring hard skills. You

should rely on everything for the AI effectively. And it's just like these are really damning pieces of advice for young people. Like young people are being told that you should never become an expert in anything. You should always offload. And the problem is is that anyone worth any of their salt will tell you that AI though can produce code is going to get it wrong in a huge number of cases. And as the code becomes bigger or more complex or more input, it's going to just start kind of sloshing back and forth between bugs. And

so if you don't have those hard skills and you're not ultimately the driver at the end of the day, like you're going to really find some hard times and your ability to progress will be directly bound to how good the LLMs are. So if you believe that the LLM will be vastly superior to humans in the next year, maybe that's a good bet. But if they aren't, then your skill ceiling is bound to whatever they are. And even beyond that, there's just is like a whole there's just like a level of information problem which is

like can the thing actually navigate larger like do we even have enough compute power to be able to solve things at at this real scale and even if we did if everybody started using it right now do we even have the compute power for everybody to use it right now? There's like a lot of kind of bounding questions. There's privacy concerns and I just don't want people to make the immediate or what appears to be the obvious choice where you don't need hard skills, you don't need these things, our life is already going to be

we just need to only think creatively. It's like no, I don't think so. I think these hard skills are going to be around for quite some time even with a massive improvement in the AI like you're going to really be needed to step in regularly for quite some time as far as I can tell. But I also think even on top of that just even acquiring the hard skills or uh whether that means programming from scratch for example in the context of programming uh that's going to make you better at steering the AI. Mhm. Not

just correcting the AI but steering the AI. I think there is some kind of if you know how a computer works you can program Python better. It's maybe counterintuitive, but you can if you know the low-level abstractions like some intuition around that uh you can steer the high level abstractions better. Yeah, that just seems to be the case. Unless of course AI becomes like truly super intelligent like many levels above, but it's very unlikely in the short term and in the long term it's still good as it gets better and better and better to be

able to steer to ride the wave of the improvement. Yeah, I'm on that team very much. So, a lot of people have written to me. I think a lot of developers, programmers are really concerned about the future of their profession in in the context of uh quickly improving AI systems. So, do you think AI will eventually replace programmers? The hard part about that phrase is use the term eventually. Yeah. Meaning, do I think in 5 years, 10 years, a 100red years like what is that what does that term actually mean? uh I think at some

point if we were able to scale if all things continue at the current rate of improvement there does come a point where programming as a hard skill does become unnecessary right there at some eventual point way way down the road yes I don't know what that point looks like I don't know when it's going to happen I don't even attempt to make predictions about that but there are still some like leaps and bounds we need to make just I mean even just like societally like there's plenty of companies that don't even allow you to use

AI, right? Like that. I mean, there's just practical problems that exist. So, that's like a question I just try not to answer in the direct sense. There will come a day if humanity continues and all things continue in a good positive direction where a lot of skills will go out the window due to immense computing systems. So, yeah, I'll give you that one. But it's just like if I don't think it has anything in the near term. There's been no computer improvement up to this date that did not result in more jobs. Yeah, absolutely. I

we should say that I think it depends how you define programming also because um you know when uh the community uh moves from assembly to C from C to I don't know uh Python and JavaScript like that's evolution that's really painful for a lot of people who are used to programming that lower level language. Uh so there's going to be a continuous evolution and maybe that means with with AI there's going to be more and more evolution towards natural language as part of the tool chain like being able to learn how to write proper prompts.

Uh yeah that might you know cuz natural language is still a language and in the long term it's possible that a large percentage of programming is natural language. There probably still going to be some percent is just not that's going to be extremely structured language. Right now, I don't think we are anywhere near natural language being possible because it's ambiguous. And I think what we'll end up seeing as people push really hard into this, you're going to see some sort of like pseudo lang, which is going to be a language for AIS in which you

prompt, which is going to be less ambiguous, right? People keep striving towards the less ambiguous state. And at that point, you're just programming. You're just programming yet another evolution into a higher order language. And perhaps that is a future in which people will have a more tur language. I'm just not sure how much more tur it can get. Um, yeah. I mean, I all I see is that if you say natural language can be used in the pipeline, you've just made that many more people can become programmers, which means that much more software will eventually

be created, which means there's that much more software that will need to be maintained and just becomes a a real big snowballing effect. But, you know, there's there's just just people who are programmers who are worried about their jobs. Yeah. not a complete replacement but maybe a rapid evolution of what it means to be a programmer. Like you mentioned if natural language becomes uh a way that you can communicate, you can program that means uh the pool of people who can uh get programming jobs changes rapidly. So they're really concerned to some extent, right? Um

because no matter how much no matter how much we want to say how good AI is, there comes a point where there exists a bug, there exists a large piece of software in which to describe the change requires just like pages and pages of description to the point where it is significantly just faster or easier for someone to just whip something out. Like there there's definitely a balance there. It's not like a perfect tradeoff. And so I I still don't I think people need to quit worrying and think about how they can integrate it and

try like prove it to themselves. Do they actually make themselves irrelevant? And if you truly make yourself irrelevant, I would challenge you that you're already like you're just doing something that was just slightly too complicated to automate. Like if you're only writing just straight up CRUD apps from backend to front end and like simple table displays, like yeah, maybe we just couldn't quite automate that away. And now we just have something that can just do that a little bit better. So now that's automated away. But that's not really programming. That's almost like building Legos at

that point where the design's already set. You just simply have to move piece from bag into correct position. Yeah. Uh is there something you recommend how um uh a developer programmer could avoid a situation where AI can automate them away? I think that the bigger the project you can manage, the bigger the thing you can build, the more understanding both down and up the stack you can go, the more value valuable you become. Because if you understand how to build something in the front end, okay, well, now you kick off some LLM task of some

sort that's going to go off and make a change to the front end. Okay, while it's doing that, you can go and kick off something in the CLI tool. You can go and you can go kick off something somewhere else. And as these things come back with results, you can review the results, make sure it's the way you want it, change it, commit it, go to the next. Like, you only become more, you know, as you said, in the end, more productive if we reach this state where it's truly able to do that. And I

think there is like a skill to working together with AI, which is why I'm kind of excited to watch you keep trying to do it. Yeah. It's like we don't know how it fits exactly, but it feels like AI should be a boost to productivity. And I I definitely think it's a boost to just the joy of programming. I think there's a lot of people, yeah, it's a job, but it's also a source of meaning, a source of joy. Like programming is fun. You're creating something cool and also potentially that a lot of people use.

There's this one thing that just really frustrates me. This is kind of going into the Devon category, which is that I want an intern that cares. Yeah, you you don't get that out of an LM. It does not care. Meaning that I don't want it just to make a UI for me that displays these icons like I asked. I want it to care. I want to think about it. I want it to present to me and me be like, "Oh yeah, yeah, that's great." And then me to make changes and then later on it's like,

"Actually, you know what? really rethought about this and actually it would be way better if we change you know like it doesn't actually care about the craft you know but when you work with an intern or you work with somebody else they they care when they factor something they actually go over and go ah yeah this is actually kind of bad I'm going to come back to that they finish this they go back over here and they make this even better right they like actually care about the thing itself it's a completely different experience and

I just want something that also cares that wants to make the thing better not just simply accomplish the task and I know I'm asking way too much that's not you know now we're getting into like blade runner level AI. I just want something that's it just feels like I'm missing that where it's just like it will complete the task to whatever level it understood what I was prompting, but it just doesn't it doesn't actually care about it. I mean, there's so many aspects to caring, but sort of the trivial version of that is a kind

of restlessness where you want to keep improving. And I think that is very much AI could do. Yeah. we're constantly just ask itself, can I make this better? And if it keeps doing that, it probably is going to take it to some ridiculous place. So, actually, it's it's also knowing when to stop. Yeah. Uh I think developing um something you can call taste, which is like trying, working extremely hard, constantly improving until it just feels right. This is it. And I think that is a thing that AI is not good at. It was just like

yes, this is it. Yeah, I've iterated three times and three was the that's it. We're now there. And that I think ultimately that is what humans are amazing at which is like knowing when something is right like this is it. This is especially as as you understand as you develop taste in the particular industry in a particular context application knowing like this is it. Yeah. this the rounded corners on this button. That's exactly that that's beautiful. So just a sense of beauty uh a sense of function and and efficiency and so on. Yeah. That but

that you know humans could do almost like supervision of AI systems in that context. Yeah. Yeah. You've uh ranted about Devon um just full of rage. Uh I mean first off the people that run Devon are extremely nice. I want that to be understood. I don't have some sort of upsetness against them or anything like that. Um, second, Devon is just it's it's kind of like the full it's like the full package when it comes to programming. So it's going to have you're going to give it a task and a repo and it's going to

go through it's going to try to understand the repo and the task make the change to the repo by exploring it then actually make a commit to GitHub and explain what it did so that you can have like you know so hopefully you have this whole offline thing which is the other part of um this AI part that I actually really like where it's just like go fix this thing then I can just go and unbroken fix this one thing and come back and go okay good enough merge boom you know like I want that

kind of running, being able to complete things. I think the ideal solution is that you can start giving it small bugs and it goes and fixes these bugs and you can just come back to these backlog tickets that no one ever does and it actually starts going through these backlog tickets and it's actually a really amazing experience. So, I love the idea, right? I think we can all agree that that sounds great, but every time I've done it and and I've I've asked it for many and I I try to keep narrowing down the problems.

The more narrow the problem, the better it does. So if I'm like just add one singular icon and when it gets clicked I want you to do this just just console click me like just at least create me an SVG and place it so it's nicely placed. The more narrow the task the more likely it's to be successful. Um there's like a certain level of specifying where you specify too much it just like can't do it. If you specify too little it just does weird things. So it's kind of like this very kind of fun

unique way you have to play the balance game. So far, every time I do these things, I always end up going, gosh, you know what? I should just get better at Tailwind and write it myself because I always go back and I just rewrite it. And then it's just like, dang it, what what am I saving at the end? I feel like I'm not saving anything yet. You know, it's just like this. I want it so bad. Like, I actually want AI to be great because then I can really go fast. I mean, I can

go amazing fast, but then I always just go, gosh, I should just learn Tailwind myself to like the nth degree and just go fast. Yeah, we should also mention that debugging this might be intuitive or counterintuitive is the AI is really bad at. Yeah, like that is one of the hardest. It actually makes you realize how special humans are and how difficult the task of debugging is. Obviously for trivial debugging maybe you can find yeah bugs but like that is the real art of programming is debug is finding bugs logical bugs like um extremely complicated

rare bugs edge cases. Mhm. AI can assist but mans the hard ones are really require so much context so much experience so much intuition from uh again operating in a fog full of uncertainty it's hard uh of course AI could maybe create like logs and do traces and do some kind of load in a huge amount of data that humans can't but ultimately that just means It could be a better assistant in debugging versus the actual lead debugger. Yeah. I mean, it'd be great if they could. I mean, the more it can do that, the

better, right? Cuz as far as I can tell, I mean, correct me where I'm wrong on this current state debugging. It's really, it looks at the code. It looks at the bug problem. It just kind of tries to text predict where it's most likely accurate and then just tries to fix that spot. It's just like, it's likely this spot. You said admin panel, it's slightly off this, this, this. it's probably this location, which could actually be a really great way to do search, right? Let me do semantic searching. Point to me where this is cuz

maybe that is a really great way to navigate large code bases is like smart intelligent search as opposed to try to make it do the thing. Ask it to just help you do the thing in like pinpointing problems. I know I' I'd love to see more of that cuz that's for me is like the exciting part. And there's this really great article by creator or maintainer of curl. It's the I and LLM stands for intelligence. and he writes curl and maintains curl. Curl has been inundated with security problems and all this and it's all from

LLM's being like, "Oh, I found a security flaw. Uh, here's the security flaw. Details it out in the code." And he's just like, "Okay, how did you reproduce that? Show me." Because if you look at the code right here, that's actually an impossible situation you're speaking of. And it's just like going in these circles and security right now is being inundated. These bug bounty programs are being inundated by LLM submitted responses because they can't actually, you know, analyze the code beyond just like basic text prediction. Oh, this is a stir copy. Stir copy is commonly

referred, you know, blah blah blah blah blah, boom, there you go. Here's the bug. And it's just like, no, that's actually impossible because the if statement right beforehand leaves the function if the string is too long. So, it's like we don't even run into this case. It's impossible what you're saying. So, debugging is very interesting. Yeah. I mean that for me would be the big if it can solve that not solve that but improve that that would be huge whether it's agents or just LLMs integrated into um into IDEs. I think there's this whole idea

I call a a denial of attention. I think there's an entire attack vector that's going to be happening where using LLM to generate fake bug reports fake all these things to just actually uh effectively to demotivate and um hurt open source maintainers. Uh, Polykill was the first bug that kind of had this experience is this denial of attention where a active malicious maintainer just hounded the owner and then a white knight came out and offered to buy this, you know, buy some stuff from under them and when they bought it, they actually replaced it with

a malicious piece of code and then used it. So, there's like this whole security world that's developing around using these in a very aggressive format. I mean it's a fascinating world we're entering into but I do agree with you that humans human developers will be a huge part of that world that this is not the job might evolve but it's going to be there if I can I didn't really look at this page I thought it would be cool to go over with you this is again the Stack Overflow my favorite Stack Overflow developer survey

talking about their sentiment and usage of AI systems the general sentiment of yes uh 61% say yes they use it and 25% say no don't plan to. So majority use it majority have a favorable sentiment over it favorable or very favorable or indifferent. That's like looks like over 90%. That's really surprising that that many people just have no plan in looking into AI. Like as much as I don't like using it for coding I hope one day I can use it more. Right. And so it's like I to me I'm always looking for the next

thing. I'm just surprised that people are that I guess obstinate for it. Obviously the second one the AI tool sentiment it must be only the users who responded uh yes to the top two of that first one just given the amount of respondents. I wonder if no and don't plan to are people who have tried it and quickly built up the intuition like this really sucks. Yeah. So we, you know, we could be like experienced programmers. They're like, "No, this is not making me more productive." 81% agree that increasing productivity is the biggest benefit that

the developers identify for AI tools. Okay, so this is what are the benefits? Increase productivity, speed up learning, greater efficiency, improve accuracy in coding, make workload more manageable, improve collaborate. Where's the fun? Increased fun. I would say that's that's like number one for me. Maybe speed of learning is like a a subcategory of fun, right? If you're able to learn more and be able to become better to me, that that sounds that sounds good. I don't know. It's different cuz like productivity is part of fun too. I there is just a lightness um I mean

maybe improved collaboration all of these elements for sure. There's I my time using co-pilot c there was certainly a level of wonder that would happen for quite some time where it's just like it's just amazing what it can do. Yeah. I'm just super impressed by what it can do even though I don't use it. Like it's amazing to me that we have something that can even get that close. Uh in terms of accuracy of AI tools, only 2.7% highly trust. I would say that you have to be very green to think that you should highly

trust an AI output. You should be very skeptical. Yeah, I don't know where I stand. Probably somewhat distrust. Highly distrust seems aggressive. it does seem a little like you should definitely be in the somewhat like you should always assume that there's something wrong and then from there you can go and and challenge it and then uh estimation of whether AI can handle complex tasks. Most people don't think it can handle complex tasks. I mean it seems like people have a good sense of what it's able to handle and not I would argue that people don't

have a good grasp of what complex is in programming. Sure. Yeah. If you say write to me, you know, write me quicksort, some people think quicksort's super complex. Mhm. But I would argue that that's actually probably the simplest thing you could ask an AI to do, right? Things that are so well documented. It's going to do a great job at that. Yeah, probably high level design decisions, which people don't even use AI for right now. I guess agents are supposed to be doing that kind of stuff. That's probably the most difficult thing or the most

impactful thing. Well, the most difficult thing is finding bugs. Yeah. AI tools next year, writing code and so on. Now, this one, the ethics part, I'm actually super curious your take. Yeah. On the ethics. Will we see Europe laying down some new regulations? Oh, boy. What about artists, right? What about people that are really Because the difference between coding and artists is very, very simple. If you gave me a sheet of paper, I could draw you a crab. Mhm. You go, that's a crab. Yeah. But you can't do that with coding. It's like it's right

or it's wrong. There's not a variation of interpretation for what a crab is. It's like no, that statement is just you cannot make that statement, you know? It's it's very bounded in what it can express. And I could see why artist like that's a very frustrating point. And then who gets rewarded for all that? You know, obviously. And then there's like the whole thing with coding and licenses. How much of it is GPL licenses do you think they've scraped and used as training data? GPL forces open source. Yeah. What are you going to do with

that one? Like that means your model might need to be open source. like open AI may have to get forced open. Yeah. All their previous stuff if there's any hint of GPL. Yeah, that's a weird one. That's a really weird one because most of these models I think are training on data they don't technically have rights to be training on. Yeah, there's a lot of questions. There's an unspoken it's a it's a it's a real wild west cuz like you could imagine that what if you know I always use Europe because they tend to have

like maybe the most consumer protection uh laws out there. You could imagine what happened if a law came down that said that if you used a model that produced GPL potential code, you have to open source. Like how many companies are going to be like, "Oh my gosh." Right? Like you have one year to get rid of all code that was generated that's potentially GPL sourced from a model. Like that could you could imagine just the sheer panic that's going to happen. It'd be a fire sale of code. So given all that, what can you

give advice to young programmers? uh like this is another question from Reddit, the infinite wisdom of Reddit. What should a person in their early 20s do to move forward in in the tech industry? And uh this is an interesting addition to the question and by doing it will this be walking on someone else's path? I am going to try to answer that question I guess the best I can which I think that if you're entering into the tech world one of the hardest pieces of advice that I took a long time to learn was I

became enamored and addicted obviously we talked about that program for way too many hours um forgetting to uh spend the time I needed with my wife with my friends all that stuff like totally wrapping myself up into one activity. I think though it made me who I am was probably an unhealthy activity and probably not a wise activity. And so the best advice I can give is that you got to develop the love, the skill, the desire for it, whether that's just only using AI agents, programming yourself, using Zig or programming JavaScript, whatever you know

that flavor is that's going to get you coming back every single day, getting the reps in the gym, if you will, for programming, but also knowing how to value what is valuable and not getting lost in the sauce where you're just so stuck on trying to make the next greatest startup that you sacrifice your health, you sacrifice your relationships, or even worse, you sacrifice your own morals to take certain shortcuts that you probably shouldn't be taking uh in life to be able to achieve these things because you know I'm sure there's hundreds of horror stories

you could hear where people definitely shortcuted their morals for you know monetary success. Yeah. I mean the golden handcuffs uh comfort can destroy the soul in some sense. Yeah. So that's uh yeah I mean that's really important to remember. But would you, you know, there's young people kind of thinking, do I even want to be a programmer now? It seems like AI is getting better and better and better at these at programming. Um, if they were trying to make that decision, would you still say, "Yeah, if this is something that fills you with joy." I

still want my kids to learn how to program. If I can answer that, if that can if that's a good enough answer in the sense that my kids are are decade younger than a young person trying to learn how to program right now. And so if I want, you know, I'm hoping that my kid can run and build whatever he want in Roblox, I'm showing him Chad Jippity and be like, "All right, let's ask questions. How do we do this?" It's still extremely confusing for him to do all these things. And so it's like, "Let's

do this. I want him to learn and be effective." And maybe one day he has to throw away all those skills in 20 years. But I bet you that whatever skills he threw away or whatever hard skills he had to throw away, an entirely new field that none of us have thought about, just like if you would have asked somebody in the 70s, you know, about social networks, they'd be like, "What the heck are you even talking about?" Like things will exist in the future that are going to be massively different and crazy and exciting.

Maybe in virtual reality. There you Maybe all of us actually down the line will just be building video games. Just entertainment for all. The uh brave new world of our world. Well, I think I think uh entertainment is a kind of trivialized version of what a video game could be. Mhm. It's like what what is the purpose of life anyway? I mean, it could be it could be a deeply fulfilling video game. It doesn't have to be just like dopamine rush. It could be educational. It could be scary. It could be uh challenging, forcing an

evolution, the leap into adventure that it makes up a um a fulfilling life. That could be video games. Who knows? Especially in virtual reality. I tend to uh that's the other thing. I I play a lot of video games. I think I think I think there's a lot of room to make video games deeply fulfilling. Like there's a lot of space where that can go. I didn't know you played a lot of video games because when I asked you specifically, should I play World of Warcraft or do Advent of Code? You're like, Advent of Code.

Advent of Code. Oh, well that that might mean I've never played World of Warcraft because there's certain games I avoid. Fortnite, by the way, I think was one of them cuz I was worried become too addicted. Yeah. Yeah. So there's certain games I just know I won't get super addicted to. Like for example, I'm terrified of Civilization. Like uh I have never played a Siv game because I'm worried. I'm worried uh the dark path in my lead because there's some games just really pull you in. I'm much better with uh that's why I play Skyrim.

I can play these games uh or Balders's Gate and moderate my how much I play and they could be like a lifelong companion versus an addiction where I'm like it's like sunrise and you're like what's happening with my life and I find myself naked behind a dumpster somewhere just wondering what happened. Um yeah, so that's how I choose my video games. You're not the first person who has specifically called out civilization. Yeah, I've had more than one person also very high up in the tech world be like, "Civilization is my downfall. If I get near

that game, I'm done." Yep. So, I've never even played the game now. It makes me be like, "Dude, I got to give this a try. That sounds crazy." Yeah. And the new one is actually supposed to be really, really good. What were we talking about? Yes. For that same young developer, is there a trajectory through jobs that you could give advice on? So, you started out with Schedulicity? Yeah, that was my first uh full-time when I had the government contracting one before that that wasn't quite full-time. It was in C. It was a lot of

fun and then building my own startup for quite some time. So, if you count either of those as full-time, then those would be the full-time. But schedule list was the official on the docks. So, is there some value to jumping around like working one company and another to try to figure out like what brings you joy? I think there's a lot to that cuz um not every job you're going to get is going to is going to be great. Now, your first job you could get could make you think you hate programming. It happened. I

did an internship at a place I I know I keep on like surprising you with more kind of things I did in the past. Did an internship at a at fuck you so many things. It's incredible. At a place called like uh total information management system. Remember when I talked about that hours ago about health care and that and industrial shipping and all that? It was a C# shop. It was so bad that after I did that, I went and changed my major to mechanical engineering for a semester in college. I thought I Okay, actually

I like computer science. I hate programming. So, you know, just because you've had a job doesn't mean it's the it's going to be the one. And the thing is the here's the best part though. If you get a job and you like it and you want to do it and it's exciting, you don't need the change, right? I think a lot of people are like, "Oo, I got to find the next thing. I've been here for 2 years." like there's kind of this like you got to move around mindset. I don't think you have to

move around. I don't think it hurts your career because if anything, you'll gain more responsibility and you'll be able to talk with way more authority and the next time you interview, you're going to be way more into like, oh yeah, I had to get these ex people and these ex people to be able to do all this stuff. And it's like you can talk with much more authority if you stay at a place longer. And that's nothing but benefits in my book. It's only if you stay at a place because you're afraid or you don't

want to, you know, you already have something that works for you and you just never want to change and you're just like, I get to go in and just be completely mindless. I think if you go mindless for a couple years, you'll find yourself that's like the only real danger. You just come out with nothing at all. Yeah. Especially when you're younger, that's the whole point. Take take the risk, take the leap out to the next thing, to the next thing. And not for money, but for just person like joy. Joy. Yeah. And money could

get at the end. That's the best part is when you don't strive for the money, sometimes the money just shows up anyways. Yep. And some of the what makes life worth living is the people you work with like a a good team. Some of it's like not to be generic, but you know, culture matters. It's whatever makes you um happy. Like for example, I just had won't call out places, but you know there's certain companies where everybody is very 9 to5 and it's very even if the work is exciting, they're not they don't work hard

enough. I would say I'm one of those people that likes to go all out like likes to be surrounded by people who are like super passionate. Now to be fair, a lot of them don't have families or don't Yeah, it's a fascinating choice. I I really don't want to talk down on any choice like work life balance or not. But I think both are beautiful paths and like if you really derive a lot of value from joy from your work going all in at least for some stretch of your life is is a beautiful thing

to do. Just all out full-on passion sacrifice a lot of social life all that kind of stuff. I don't know that could also be beautiful. there going to be something very very exciting about that in some sense especially if you're building your own thing. Uh I could imagine that would be very exciting like if I was Amazon Jeff Bezos building Amazon one could imagine that those early years were probably very rough and the amount of hours he probably put in were very very rough. Uh but I will say that there's this kind of unique aspect

in our culture where we kind of make this as an equal trade-off between family or work. Uh like oh you don't you do or you don't have to have kids. And my only kind of real notion with that one is that you will never know your capacity for love until you have kids. Like you you just don't know. And some people are like, "Oh, yeah, but I like love my dog." And it's just like I loved my dogs, too. And then I had kids and now my dogs are they're all right. Like I like them.

Yeah. I could come home and I pet Indie and I'm like Indie. And then I'm just like, "Okay, bye Indie." Right. Like it just I can't even describe the difference between the two. Yeah. Because they're not it's not even the same. And so it's very that trade-off you're making is no one can tell you what it's like cuz there's a real reality that's right now and I'm sure I'm 100% positive this is with my wife as well where if right now we got news that said you have some medical procedure where if we do this

you will die but your kid will live. There's not a question in my soul that I wouldn't do that, right? If I was given, if I could look into the future and if I had to die right now knowing that my kids would have a better life, they would be happier, they'd be more fulfilled and all those things, I guarantee you either my wife or I would take that every single time. It's just like you will never be able to say that about most things. People will jokingly say that until it's actually on the line.

Mhm. But it's like with with that, you just have this ferociousness. I can break out and sweat thinking about somebody fictionally pushing my kid to the ground. like like actually get, you know, real adrenal responses flowing through my body. So, it's just like such a different world and it's hard to explain. And you could never have convinced me when I was young that it'd be this big. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought I knew. I didn't know. But to add on top of that, some some of the most successful people I know, some of the most

productive people I know have kids. So, like I don't know if it's even a trade-off. like that love you feel it seems to be a catalyst for like to make sure you have less time but you're going to use that time better to be productive. I would argue that I'm it definitely changed a lot of my life and my and how I approach problems and everything in a very different way. Let me ask some uh random questions from Reddit. On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you hate every product Microsoft has ever

created and why is it a 10? Okay, I think we covered that. We haven't technically covered it. Uh, there you go. All right, go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. The only thing I'll say is that I don't like that Microsoft pretends to be the good guy. Yeah. When what they really want is to get you addicted to their products, to get you to use their products as much as possible so they can extract as much money out of you. Well, in this world, are there really good guys? That's a great point. Uh, I would argue Neovim

is a great guy. They there's no way they can make money. Um, Justin Keys is the benevolent dictator and he thinks deeply about the product and tries to make it the best as possible. Whereas something like Microsoft, they they made VS Code as a loss leader. Copilot's probably operating on a loss leader. These things are all getting you so tied into GitHub, remote workspaces, CI cop, like you've become this trapped in permanent person. And if that price rises, the switching cost is so great at some point that you'll never be able to switch. That's my

only fear is that Microsoft was once accused of eee and it feels like they're eeeing again. Yeah, I'm nervous about criticizing a good thing because you could see an incentive to do that good thing like Google creating all these services that don't make money like Gmail for example. You can sort of sort of cynically say like they're only doing that to tie you into an ecosystem so they can like uh basically keep you for life. But also, it's awesome that they created Gmail like Yeah. And they create an incredible product, right? So, I can side

with you on that one. It is a good product. VS Code is a good product. Yeah. Don't put that on the butt is fine. You know, they they they did a great job. Yeah. So, like it, you know, there is going to be financial incentives behind some of these companies. And by the way, me defending not defending but saying positive things about Microsoft is just so I could talk shit to Prime. But that's I love that. by the way. Yeah, Linux is my first and last love. It it definitely the spirit of Linux and open

source is a beautiful thing. So I I do think that when you have these large corporations even when they try to do good often times the the profit imperative just takes over and they they can they can corrupt themselves and Microsoft has a long history of doing just that to themselves. Yeah, that said they've done, you know, they have, you could say for cynical reasons because they want to seem like the good guy amongst developers, but they've done a lot to support open source. It's just like same with Meta. They've met Meta's done like insane

amount. Yeah. To support open source. You can say actually for that one, I don't even I don't know if I can even make a financial or cynical case for why Meta is open sourcing Llama and like these. Yeah, that one's confusing. It just seems great. maybe for hiring, but no, I I think that's legit just an ethical really powerful decision. And sometimes these companies because they have a lot of cash can make the right do the right thing. Yeah. It's a really positive way to look at it and I think that's that's really nice. But

we should always be skeptical. Yeah. I mean because at the end of the day, companies, they're not good, they're not bad, right? They're they're morally neutral. Well, it's the people that are running them, the decisions those people make that are really where the bad or the good comes from. Another question asking if he knows how to milk a cow. I've already asked that. The answer is Oh, no. You don't know. I've never milked a cow. Never milked a cow. Almost been killed by a cow, but never milked a cow. Do you ever ride a bull?

No. All right. Uh, why male models? Okay, so I can explain that one. Mhm. I will say something like, "I really dislike the color purple because the color purple makes me upset." I don't know, just something very benign. But then someone right afterwards will be like, "But why don't you like the color purple?" Right? And it just be like, it's just like Derek Zoolander. It's just like I get done on a on a five minute talk about it and then the next question is like, "But seriously, why though?" It's just like why male models? Yeah.

So that's the Zoolander reference when there's a long explanation. Why male models? And uh he he agrees and then forgets. Yep. Uh uh what is Ligma? You know, I've died by Ligma quite a few times. Ligma. So, do you know the origin story of Ligma? No. So, Ninja, famous streamer, someone got him with Ligma said like, "Oh, something like have you heard about Ligma?" And he was like, "No." And he's like, "Oh, Ligma balls." Right. And then after that, Ninja got like so hurt by getting had by that that he started banning anyone in chat

who said the word ligma or something like that. And so then it be, you know, if you don't embrace the meme, yep, you get destroyed. So of course gets destroyed. And so then the whole goal is that can people get me with ligma. TJ did I ladies. He's like, "Oh, did you hear that e- girls got renamed to Eye Ladies?" And I just didn't even see it coming. And I was just like, "What?" And he's like, "Ye ladies, nuts on your face." And then it's just like, "Oh my gosh." And then a pirate software has

also got me like, "Oh, have you heard about Google Sema?" Which Sema is a real product by Google. And I'm like, "Oh yeah, I've heard about this. What is this again?" He's like, "Yeah, SEMA balls, right?" It's just like, "Dang it. How do I keep?" So, I've just had it happen live on stream many, many times. I've died by Ligma the most. Please ask him about the size of his dict. Okay. So, this is So, that's dict. That's dictionary in Python. Who doesn't love dicks? Yeah, that's a great question. just a dict party when you

use uh Python. I love dict that should be a t-shirt. Uh that's actually a hilarious teaser. But so on Stack Overflow, you can ask any question you want. And I decided to craft a question one day on Stack Overflow that says how to measure your dictes. And then I proceeded to really go to town and like explain all the different things like well what about the cost of the strings and the references and you know like when you really get both hands on your dict and really go after it's like very hard to like really

threw in some innuendos. The Stack Overflow team deleted the question and then someone handwrote me a uh an email explaining why they deleted the question and complimented me on how thoroughly and thoughtful the question was just to way just to weave in innuendos and that the entire team was impressed but it's inappropriate and it had to be deleted and don't do it again or we're going to ban your account. And so it's like very funny moment. And so I was like, "Oh, that's funny." You know, that happened. Uh two, that was about six years ago

last year. I was at a conference and there's a guy wearing a Stack Overflow uh name tag. And I was like, "Oh, you work at Stack Overflow." He's like, "Oh, yeah, I do." I'm like, "Do I got a story for you?" And he goes, "No, wait a second. Are you the dict guy?" Like that was his only question was that. And I was just like, "Let's go." I didn't even say anything about me. and he already knew immediately I was the dict guy. Uh I should say in all seriousness I think I've had a bunch

of conversations sort of in the Python world where I would have to mention the name of this data structure and it makes me uncomfortable every time. You know it's a very unfortunate shortening of a word dict. It's just like when I go to the hardware store and ask for coke and there's always a nice old lady and I ask her where to find and it's very uncomfortable. I try to pronounce it as hard as I can. Really get that L in there like call just to be clear and try to avoid eye contact the whole

time. You said you said that God was a big part was a big part of your life. Can you speak to that a little bit more? Who is God and what effect what role did he play in your life? So I you know I I did talk about that one important evening where I for whatever reason gained my my conscience that moment. Um so obviously for me that I grew up with a life where I would probably argue myself as a functional atheist. I went to church a handful of times. I can't quite really remember

actually going to church as a family in any sort of sense. So there wasn't like some super strong tie or anything like that to it. like pretty much anyone else growing up in America in the 90s, you had some sort of impact or intersection with church at some point in your life. Uh that was just a very normal thing I I would probably say. And so when that happened, it was a it was a fairly big surprise for me. I was, you know, I wasn't necessarily going that direction or deciding to do any of those

things. And so for me, it's it's obviously the the turning point of my entire life. Uh, I would have I I cannot speak to who I would be now without that. I can just tell you that I wouldn't have had the drive. I probably would not have completed college. I would not have found my wife or had my kids. I wouldn't know how to value people. I don't think without that whole thing, my value for people would have been very, very small cuz I would have continued to just objectifying in the way I was. And

then probably the biggest thing is there's this one verse. I don't even know where it's at. It effectively says that we love because he first loved us. And so for me it's like I don't think I would have ever lived a life that was happy without this. And I just didn't even know that that was an option for me. And I never really, you know, it was a very tough set of years for me. And I was very very sad and just always kind of just constantly looking for something to fulfill me. And so it's

like I didn't have any confidence. I didn't have any joy. I was I was I felt very sad. And so that was kind of this moment where for the first time ever, I didn't all of a sudden I just felt like I didn't have to live up to a standard, right? Like my the standards have already been paid for. Like everything's already like that that's that's the free gift. That's the that's the exchange. And so it's just like for the first time I didn't have to be the cool guy. I didn't have to have all

the right words. I didn't have to feel, you know, I didn't have to go on the conquest, the sexual conquest to find validation. Like, I didn't have to do any of those things. And it was exceptionally liberating. And so, who is God? That's more of like a catechism question perhaps. Uh, what is man? Who is God? Right. Like those those are much much harder questions. Um, I believe that anytime you try to get too deep into describing who God is, you typically fall into Christian heresy. Mhm. But for you, he gave you a chance to

be happy. Yeah, he gave me a chance not just to be happy, but also uh made it so that for like the first time I can I can actually feel forgiven, I guess, in some sense, and able to forgive people that hurt me. Like for a long time, I I had this like weight I'd carry around from like the things I hated about high school and all that kind of stuff. And through that experience, I just wrote down every last person's name and actually held them with me for quite some time. And this was the

list of people I I forgave. And I read it a few times cuz like I couldn't let myself be angry or consumed by that kind of stuff cuz like hate is so sticky, right? It's it sticks for a lifetime. And there really is only one cure for hate, which is forgiveness. Like I just don't think you can get rid of it without that. And so I just had choose to forgive these people and to move on. And it really kind of freed me. And I would never have thought forgiveness as a means for that change

if I didn't first experience it myself. What's the role of love in the human condition? To go to the philosophical and what's been the role of love in your life. It's very obvious that every person wants or desires love. Uh my wife has recently convinced me to watch Love is Blind with her one time and you watch the show. And if you're not familiar with it, it's just feels like just a disaster of an experiment to to just cause crazy filming. But anyways, the idea is that if you just don't see somebody, you can fall

in love with somebody and want to marry them after like 10 days or some very small period of time. And what you really end up seeing is all these people who are just desperate for actually love. And there's like some part of it I always I told my wife it's like love gladiators. We're watching people battle it out for drama and really what they want is love and it's like they're fighting to the the death and love if you will. And it's this almost kind of sad aspect to watch. And so I think that it's

it's it's hard to call like what is its role in the human experience because I don't think I think it's just something that we all naturally not just want but need. And I don't think that you can really progress. And when I say the word love, I I would like to kind of narrow it down maybe a bit more. And I don't mean like aeros, the Greek word, like sexy love. I think that paternal and friendship love are extremely important. And I think agape like god love is also very important. Agape love is the one

that is superior to them all but obviously different and also, you know, co-ed with the parental ones and all that. And so you kind of need this mixture of them all. And each one is different for each reason and where it's applied. And so I don't think I just don't see a world in which is good of any kind without that as like a a very foundational piece, right? Because you know again not you know I didn't I didn't come here trying to quote any sort of sub scripture but it says that it's not the

nails that hung them there. It's love. That's the reason why these things happen. And so it's if forgiveness is the requirement to kind of pay off hate in some sense, then love has to be the motivation for forgiveness. Yeah, that's uh the tragic aspect of life. I think we're all there's like a deep loneliness in all of us and a longing longing to be a part of this of this bigger thing. And uh that longing is is is a love and it has many names. But yeah that the love aspect of it is is the

beautiful aspect of life. The tragedies, the loneliness and the unfortunate suffering that is a fundamental part of life and the the beautiful aspect is the love. Yeah. Uh which I think is a good time to mention more Reddit. The the the the place for everlasting positivity and love. Uh somebody wrote uh please thank him you uh for his everlasting positivity and give him a big hug for me. So uh I won't give you a big hug on camera cuz I'm afraid I'll get a boner and that will be very unfortunate. Hey, let's not bring dicks

into this again. Okay, it's my favorite data structure. Like I said, I love dicks. Uh all kinds of dicks. Ordered dicks. Unordered. I know what it takes. I don't discriminate. Uh and yeah. Uh but just that to say like big thank you. Uh, for me, like I listen to you a lot just and I just really enjoy I've been going through a lot of shit myself and just the positivity you even when you're building the stupidest shit, it's just the positivity radiates from you and it you inspire me to be a good person. You inspire

me to build stuff. So, thank you. And I'm sure there's many many others who listen to you for the same reason. So, thank you for your positivity. Thank you for uh being the light in many people's lives and thank you for talking today, brother. Dang, that was very very kind. I really do appreciate all those extremely nice words even from Reddit. That's very surprising, but yeah, thank you. I mean, I know you know that there's many people's lives and I'm sure you've received the letters that have been changed from from actions and things you've said

and things you've done. And so it's one of the best parts about doing this side is that you get a chance to potentially improve somebody's life, you know, and you getting to interview a lot of people. Like there's a lot of people that listened to Chris Latner and saw his excitement for Swift and probably went and learned Swift and then got really amazing jobs and it can be all origined back to you and that interview. And so it's, you know, those are amazing things and so same goes back to you. You've done a lot of

a lot of good stuff. Uh, right back at you, brother. Thank you for talking today. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Michael Pollson, aka the Primagen. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from Paulo Coello. When we strive to become better than we are, everything around us becomes better, too. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.