Esther Perel’s Advice for Modern Dating

do you experience sexuality as a place where you want to experience Transcendence spiritual union you know deep connection is it for fun is it to experience yourself as finally not having to be a good responsible citizen you know is it a place where you can be naughty and mischievous is it a place where you can surrender and be taken care of is it a place where you can be safely powerful these Dynamics they they are all in our relationships and they all get translated in this other language called sexuality hey everyone welcome back to the

love Life podcast I know you're going to love today's guest many of you already know and love her her name is ese Perell before we get into this episode I want to tell you about an event I have going on on the 22nd of October it is an online Global event for people all over the world who want to know how in today's crazy dating landscape can I actually get commitment a real relationship whether you're single and keep running into emotionally unavailable people or whether you're already seeing someone and you don't know where it's going

this event is going to give you the answers to getting the commitment you really want come join us in this event that is going to help you actually get the relationship you want I promise you this is not going to be a bunch of philosophy it's actually going to be very practical Solutions things you can do to move things forward with someone all you need to do to join us is go to L lifetrac you can register there in seconds for free and I will email you a private link where you can join us on

the day on October the 22nd that link again is loveif trining tocom I will see you over there and enjoy today's episode of love life with Esther [Music] Perell welcome back everybody to the love Life podcast with me Matthew hussy and today I have something very very special for you this is one of the in my opinion absolute powerhouses out there in the world of psychotherapy in the world of love and relationships in the world of uh desire and sexuality and eroticism her name is Esther Perell she is a psychotherapist a New York Times bestselling

author and is recognized as one of today's most insightful and original voice voices on Modern relationships she Helms a therapy practice in New York City and serves as an organizational consultant for Fortune 500 companies around the world her celebrated TED Talks have garnered more than 40 million views and her bestselling books mating and captivity and the State of Affairs are Global phenomena translated into more than 30 languages Ester is also the host of the hit podcast where should we begin a podcast I personally love which is available on Apple podcast CS her latest projects include

where should we begin a game of stories with Esther Perell as well as the online courses bringing desire back and playing with desire both of which you'll hear a little bit about at the end of today's episode you can learn more about Esther at Estel docomo Perell official on Instagram but now we have the rare privilege of having her here in person in the love Life Studio so without further Ado I present to you the Esther [Music] Perell so hello and welcome thank you it's so good to be back it's so good to have you

five years ago five years ago I was uh I think I was single yes you were certainly you don't have to think I can tell you you can tell I certainly hadn't met Audrey at that point and it's fun for you to walk in and and meet her today I mean it's really a pleasure to see people's life and you know develop alongside their work and how it changes how the work changes their personal life and how their personal life influences their work yeah yeah do you feel like that's do you feel like that's happened

to you in the last few years like has there been a specific way that your life has influenced your work in the last 5 years since we saw each other yes yes I think that um probably one of the most important ways my life evolved I can't say it was completely new but it became an essential part is that it became more and more communal first of all the pandemic then some health issues that we were dealing with and so the concept of you know it takes a village became very very real for us and

um I've always written about it but then to live it changes the way I write and talk about it do you feel have you always been a sociable person who's good at creating that Village or has that been a skill you've learned no over time no I kind of was born with that temperament um I've always been not just I'm a social person but I've been the creator of a lot of the social hubs I love to connect people um I find it a magnificent fun puzzle you know who would be interested in meeting who

who should talk to who who could create with whom you know and a lot of people in my circle will know will say that they've met through me or to us uh but it's it's a pleasure it's something that I do without much thought yeah it's like somebody who cooks and you look at them and they know exactly what they need to put in and you say What's the recipe they say no no a little bit of this and a little bit of that and it's just so Artful and so intuitive I think I have

a little bit of that in the relational I feel like it took me I've always been something of an introvert and it always and when I was younger I was more shy too um still an introvert less shy it took me a little longer I think to kind of really connect to the value of relationships which is ironic given you know what I've spent my life doing but it you know I think in my in my 20s certainly I just didn't I you know I I think I was so you know on a mission that

I neglected relationships to a large extent but that is not necessarily because you're an introvert I mean I think one of the big misunderstandings is that we assume that introverts don't care about relationships they do they do often plenty but they replenish More Often by themselves yes they fill up the tank alone and then they can go into the world but that doesn't mean that they don't like the world and that they don't value relationship they may not value necessarily the presence of large groups so I and I think that often when we think of

introverts with think people who people you know relationships don't matter to them and I I keep being told that that's not the case I want to spread that message I always was good at having one or two or three key people yeah in my life that was always the case um but I think I was a little more passive when it came to really investing in A Wider Circle investing in other relationships and I did you let them do it I think I took for granted the ways that people were trying with me a lot

of the time and I think that it what ended up happening in some of my relationships was just a lack of reciprocity you know almost like you could use an ex the excuse of like oh we're you know we're the kind of friends that when you haven't seen each other in a year you pick right up from where you left off and I I understand that concept but it can be a bit of a cop out because it can be an excuse not to actually invest you're the person I would ask to you're that person

then that I would ask who do you owe a phone call to H who have you been meaning to connect with but have neglected because you keep thinking with friends anyway I can do this any time who do you owe an apology to who do you know has gone through a rough time and a text that says one sentence isn't enough um and I have yet to meet someone who actually then follows up on this and says that was a waste of time well I think the interesting part is that that behavior often comes off

as cold or indifferent to the person on the other end but it actually internally for me a lot of it I realized went handin hand with underestimating how much of an effect I could have and what shocked me more in recent years was the extent to which that phone call or that text mattered yeah and I I I don't think that I ever really there was a aspect of it in my 20s that was selfish certainly but I think there was also a feeling of it doesn't matter that's not going to make any difference and

I've come to realize what an extraordinary difference it does make for people agreed agreed I I always feel like I have so much to talk to you about you know you and I um I and I hope we can talk more frequently in the future cuz every time I speak to I'm like oh my God I have too many questions for the time that we have I'll follow you um and I was thinking about what I wanted to ask you today and I kind of we're going to Traverse lots of different areas but there was

a quote that I pulled from you that says in order to want sex it needs to be sex worth wanting wanting means anticipation looking forward to the anticipation that you're going to experience something pleasurable that you're going to feel connected to yourself to a partner or partners that it's going to be enjoyable and intimate that idea of sex worth wanting could you talk to us about that because I think a lot of people will hear that and go well yes I'm in a situation where it feels like the sex isn't worth wanting and what constitutes

sex worth wanting H it's a beautiful question you know there's a a um early on in my show I asked people if they have ever had a sex ual encounter that was also unsatisfying but they went along with it anyway and they said nothing and thousands of people get up and then I just kind of look around and I just say you look around too it's very much an equal opportunity answer and the amount of bad sex in the room is staggering and men put their hands up too you would there's it's equal opportunity it's

so clear now it's half laugh with laugh it's it's funny it's but but it's not because everybody knows exactly in that moment everyone has an encounter in their mind everyone drops in into a situation and I I think that the reason I'm so clear on on this wanting is because sexuality is in relationships for most of History was organized around Duty and obligation of women nobody cared what they felt if they liked it if they didn't if you wanted 10 kids you needed to have 12 a few were not going to make it so sexuality

was linked to reproduction and to a woman's marital Duty and we switched the concept in the west that we've switched the concept of Duty to desire I want to desire is to own the wanting that's one of the many ways to Define it and how therefore do I want and what does wanting mean and what is it that I actually want so sometimes people say this people are not interested in sex and I'm thinking really or is it that they're not interested in the sex they're going to have and what does that mean it's foregone

conclusion it's boring it's painful it's disconnected it's um it's a 5 minute drive by it's uh uh it leaves them feeling empty um it leaves them feeling worthless I mean there's so many negative consequences there's so many beautiful experiences but there's a long list of things for which people can just basically say why bother I don't want this and that is without even talking about early trauma histories of abuse so then I'll tell you the next one because I I wanted to translate that sentence in order to want it needs to be worth wanting into

a real experience so I asked also in the show at one moment for people to turn on their phones and I asked them put your phones up if sexuality was Central in your family life growing up and very few people put their phones up because by association we think central means um we talked about it there was affection between my parents I had good sex education Etc but then you say I'm going to ask you this question like this if it was hidden or forbidden or taboo put your phone up if there was violation or

abuse or misuse and if there was infidelity put the phones up and then you look around and then you have the entire theater with their phones up and you just say sexuality is a lot more Central than we typically acknowledge look look around you know every light represents what many of us hold alone in our internal darkness and that story makes people not want it's not worth wanting because all of these memories all of these experiences May stand in the way I often AC accompany this by saying sex isn't just something you do don't think

about performance and outcome it's an experience that is basically about pleasure and connection since it's not about having kids then there needs to be another reason and that usually means pleasure and connection of some sort and then you ask how do you find it what is it that you want to connect with inside of you or with another person what do you express there you talk about languages that I speak I think a lot in languages for me sexuality is a lang anguage it's actually a coded language for your deepest emotional needs not for your

sexual needs your sexual needs and preferences all translate deep emotional wishes and yearnings and fears and wounds it it's like dream language why do you like this most people have no idea why they like this and why is it that the thing you like so much your partner find so gross you know it's like how do we come up with these things that we saw and enjoy and I'm not talking about the the the touching behind your ear I'm talking in the broad sense do you want do you experience sexuality as a place where you

want to experience Transcendence spiritual union you know deep connection is it for fun is it to experience yourself as finally not having to be a good responsible citizen you know is it a place where you can be naughty and mischievous is it a place where you can surrender and be taken care of is it a place where you can be safely power F these Dynamics they they are all in our relationships and they all get translated in this other language called sexuality if you don't want you won't be present if you're not present it won't

be good but we are trained to accept bad sex men even more than women because they're supposed to want it all the time and take whatever they can get so in that sense I mean there's no winner and there's no you know in this in this ugly competition people accept a lot of situations that are deeply compromised that are unpleasant that are lonely and they accept it in their relationships we're not talking about your hookup night which could even be better sometimes when you speak about all of those things everything I hear is comes back

to our ability well once we get to the point of starting to maybe connect more to ourselves and our own desires and wishes so much of it comes down to our ability to actually communicate communicate and to Foster an environment in a relationship where that kind of communication can even take place and I I don't know what the percentages would be on the number of couples who are actually able to communicate on that level but it cannot be High I mean interestingly a major reason for creating these courses was to help people find the language

and then the communication to a partner or Partners it it's very clear that this is this is a lot and people tell me and I found a way to talk about it but before you can talk about it you have to have a level of self-awareness you also have to have a level of do I know myself how can people start to get that because a lot of people feel very disconnected from their bodies they feel disconnected from their sexuality they certainly don't feel sexy and I think there's a kind of a a there's a

stereotype that women need to feel sexy in order to have sex but I think that's true of men too uh I don't think that's just true of women I think the moment a guy feels like you know he he he he doesn't feel desirable or he doesn't like himself when he looks in the mirror or his confidence is low I think that affects men's sex drive the same way you this is very important what you just said I think the I mean you know a big chunk of what I do is debunking mths and one

of these myths is that you know men by definition want it they want sex all the time they are in perpetual motion in search of an outlet and nothing matters and what you say is that the interior life of men is deeply connected to their sexuality if they the fear of rejection the the the fear of not being able to perform the fear of not knowing what the partner if it's a female partner in particular is actually experiencing their sense of self-esteem their depression their sense of self-worth all these things are major influence ing factors

on male sexuality never acknowledged so I think I just want to reiterate what you just say because it's it's one of these things that is that we know but the but the popular culture does not support it and wants men especially young men to really think that there is nothing internal involved as long as they have unprompted spontaneous erections they can just get going yeah I'm GL I feel validated that from you that that you um you you verify and the research stands behind it by the way this is not just even an observation there's

plenty of research that supports this and that should be part of education so part of what you ask is how do you communicate it's an interesting and actually before we even get onto that how can people get more connected to this part and maybe partly it is communication but for men and women how can they get more connected to their own sexuality you know we have a lot of people who are in long-term relationships who have become disconnected from it but we also have many many people who have come out of a divorce and are

in their 40s 50s 60s who are saying I I didn't feel visible in that relationship for a very long time for in some cases decades I have not felt like uh a desirable person for a very long time in my life how I don't even feel like I'm a sexual being anymore what is your advice to people to get reconnected right right it's a great question so I think to to answer this I need to distinguish between sex and eroticism because many people may have had sex throughout these years that you're describing because we are

used to having sex sometimes and feel nothing May women have done this for centuries so you can do a lot of sex and feel very little but in the erotic you can do very little and feel a lot and that thing the erotic is the ex is basically the Poetics of sex it's the meaning we give to it not just the act the physical act so it's when people experience a sense of aliveness vibrancy Vitality energy curiosity imagination play playfulness that's what makes it erotic just getting it done it works I mean people tell me

it worked I said what do you mean we both come and then then what how is it what's the experience it works we you know it's it's a res it's a performance with an outcome and this is supposed to be you can have someone who can no longer touch you but they see you with eyes and through the power of your imagination you know everything about how they would want you at that moment and the experience is 10 times more intense that is the erotic okay it's sexuality that is transformed by our imagination so I

don't try to get people to get it done I don't try to just get people to do it I try to get people to feel something to experience something and that starts with things that are not per se sexual you know just this I'm doing this right now my hand is on my knee so now I would say to someone in my office who is doing this I say now go a lot slower go a lot slower and make sure actually just hover it's what ja calls energetic touch and just hover over don't touch don't

touch and just imagine your hand and now slowly let it just touch very you know this is your skin your skin is your biggest sexual organ and before you can respond to the touch of another imagine that you touch you and if you want you can also wrap yourself and you can hold yourself and you can protect yourself and then if you want you can go inside the shower and just pay attention where do you like the water where is the contact of the water the most precious place for you I want you to stay

there for two minutes and as you stay there you just take expand your breath because this is pleasure I mean I can give you dozens of those but it's this and now you're going to go drink your coffee tell me how quickly do you drink that cup and do you actually sit when you drink that cup I want you to put an egg timer and I don't want I would like you to not drink it any faster than the four minutes of the egg timer slow down it will increase your selfawareness it will increase your

con connection to yourself etc etc and all of this is sexual but people think that you know they come with an idea that you're going to do something very different it's really interesting to hear you describe that in a um individual context because one of the things I've been talking about for for many years when people say on a date you know I'm I the the thing I hear from a lot of people is Matt you know I'm I can talk to people I'm a really good talker I you know I I can have a

conversation with someone for hours and I'm like yeah I get like that I understand I understand you can talk you can keep a conversation going but when you're with someone in someone's presence the the there are these subtleties to what actually allows you to whether you call it flirting whether you call it seduction whether you and so much of that is Pace if you can just slow I when I watch people on a date and anytime I've done a you know they've put me on many TV shows where they have I have an earpiece and

I watch people on the camera and the people that don't connect on any kind of a sexual level are always moving very fast too fast their gestures the way they ask questions the way they have conversations there is a speed a Fric but they don't always know it yeah oh they almost never I say you know go from here to here the slowest possible or go all the way up your arm and close your eyes and they think that they are still here but their fingers are there so the beauty of it is to actually

say and then they open their eyes and they realize wow it's got nothing to do with where I thought I was all right we're going to do this again we're going to slow it down and we're going to intensify the breathing it's the breath the movement and the blood flow it's all three m I did a session once with 200 men alone and basically finally at some point when I say so what's your piece of you know what's your one thing you it's always the one and it's just the the in the end out of

everything I could say I just say slow down slow down but there was a couple I remember one day that I was working with and he he was struggling with rapid culation and and basically he spent his whole time making sure it works you're going to hold you're going to stay you know going to don't surprise me don't and in effect he was completely disconnected from his partner CU he was so busy making sure you know and at one point I said just put your hands in her hair and just I mean she asked I

said where she said my hair I said okay now just go as slow as slow as slow as possible and connect with her doesn't matter what's happening here right now because what's happening here right now that you are busy so much paying attention to is doing nothing for her what it's doing for her is just making it look like you're absolutely not with her and as he was holding slowly she sat then she closed her eyes and then she her lips opened like that and I said this this is a response this is real touch

this is connection don't let you penis just make the decision H you decide I love that idea that your focus on that is doing nothing for her like this is operating in a world of its own on its own timeline but is disconnected from the pace the way that you're touching her the way making sure it works is not giving her any pleasure yeah yeah I love that before I get to my last question you you have two programs that I know you're you have together as a bundle right now I'd love to just talk

about them because what I love about your work is not just the obvious depth of understanding of everything that you do but that you have painfully taken time to think about what the Practical implications of all of this work is and how people can apply it um could you talk about these two programs and how they practically kind of they give people a real road map for applying everything we're talking about today so the desire bundle came out of the the the realization and the need that people said I read your book I listen to

the podcast what can I do and not and I also think that not all of this needs to be done in a therapist office this is what can the therapist bring to you into your home that you can try and then you'll know if you need more than this then you'll come to therapy but a lot of these things are I'm going to help you sustain something enter this conversation create a certain energy be proactive and especially have the conversations that you don't even know to have so it's very practical there's a an hourong video

and then there's workbooks and these workbooks are you know in depth it's it's here are the exercises that I would do with you if we were working together and that you can do alone or with each other you can take them as couples and you can take them alone you can take them alone because you are in a relationship but you want to do it by yourself or you can or this is where you are at in your life at this moment you know your sexuality is still a part of you whether whatever relationship situation

you're in and the first one bring desire back is really for when people are just so stuck that there is not even a conversation possible at all or there is a Non-Stop chronic complaint but it's a terrible conversation so it's really about helping people get unstuck if I had rename this thing it would be getting unstuck and because that's the hardest place from for people people to to leave you know one person never stops talking about it the other one doesn't want to hear about it all of these these um impasses and then the second

one um playing with desire is really how do we bring back more energy more intensity more juice um make it less routine um make it more creative more fun and so I wanted this to distinguish these two because there's no point in telling people the fun they can can have when they're at each other's throat or when they're just in in in silence or when each one is alone in their corner or when one person feels deeply rejected by the other or when there has been an affair and there has been betrayal I mean there's

a ton of situations in relationships more even than the list we had before so it it's practical it's um simple you don't do everything at once you can take one question I ask you a lot of these question questions take one and just go with that you don't have to you know swallow the halting hole what suits you now but it's available for you for years to come every time you feel a dip you just say let me go see what perel has to say she have an idea here you know I I I I

want to do something different tonight I want to you know what can I how can I bring this up and then you go and you you do like it's a like the tarot cards you pick one you don't have to do the whole course all the time it's very you know my books are I know that when people finish reading them people often say and now what do I do so these are few things that I think you can do it's not the whole thing but it's a good start yeah everything that you do is

such a beautiful blend of the idea and then the practical application so I know people are going to get so much out of these they can find them at your website EST perelom that's right and when they're there is there anything specific they should search the desire bundle that's it the desire bundle it will appear large so we also have a promo code for anyone who wants to get these programs it's hussy 15 so for everyone out there who wants to get these two programs the desire bundle hussy 15 is our audience's promo code uh

so go check those out and um I'm really really excited to know what you think of these I'm you know Esther I have a a core of people that over the years I have quoted ad nauseum and Esther is one of those people that I think I've probably referenced more than anybody else so it's a true privilege to be able to bring you est's work I know that so much of the ground that you cover is for people who are in relationships but if we go all the way to the beginning of the dating process

for so many people one of the most common complaints I experience from people is I don't meet people I'm attracted tohm I don't feel chemistry you know and the story either goes that you know there's something wrong with everybody else or that there's something wrong with me I'm broken because I just never get attracted to people and usually the people they get attracted to tend to be the people who then treat them horribly and so there's a kind of pattern there too that you know I've never I haven't been attracted to anyone in the last

3 years and then the person I got attracted to turned out to be the toxic narcissist who destroyed the next year of my life um I I just wonder I suppose it's a big question but I wonder if you have anything that you would zero in on for people who are out there dating and at least their outward wish is that they could meet someone who is a good human being who treats them well that they also feel a sexual chemistry with an attraction for do you see there being from your Vantage Point a very

any specific reason why that is or what people can do about it from the point of view of arousing almost more desire within themselves for a broader range of people when they're actually on dates with people I think that maybe one of the things that's just to start is to kind of situate myself a little bit right I've do this for almost 40 years I do it all over the world um a lot of the things I say sometimes I put in the context of relationships because I'm a couple's therapist primarily but I work with

individuals early adulthood on straight couples gay couples queer people trans people I mean it it actually is there are their unique things but it it's a broad thing I think that when it comes to the dating people if the majority of Western dating at this moment is often app based um at some point I'm going to go and meet someone I'm often going to go meet that person in a noisy bar where I'm going to try to have an conversation that looks more like a job interview mhm and I'm going to look inside here down

and check to see if the butterflies are actually signaling me and it is the opposite of any way attraction actually is created I mean or the chemistry there is nothing chem there is no context for the chemistry chemistry takes place in a context in a situation a situation where people are experiencing something together that is fun that is um that is interesting that is deep that is surprising that is imaginative and those elements are rather absent of the initial dating so people say you know I didn't feel anything uh excuse me but on what basis

did you was there something that could even ignite any feeling did you run to a movie that you were just about to miss did you go in a club to dance and you suddenly discovered the band that you had never heard before did you find yourself you know rollerblading or skateboarding or whatever your thing is and noticed something there is nothing in a static position of you like you and I sitting now the way we do that would ignite desire or arousal or attraction or fantasy because what it is is the attraction is a fantasy

I sit in front of you and I try to I begin to imagine what's his n how does he touch you know what would it be like what's underneath his clothes you know I'm like I like the I like sitting here I like how I feel about myself as I talk to this guy I I I'm curious about him ah I would I'd like to see what Happ it's a fantasy attraction it's not just a physical phys physiological chemical response it goes mind and body but if you are in a sterile situation you're not likely

to feel much attraction so much of what I say to people is God forbid your first date should be that what would be if you could reorganize dating for people and the way people date what would you do I do a lot of things um the first thing I would do is tell people especially those who've been at it for a while stop leaving your life to go on a date where you tell tell your friends I have a date tonight and you leave your life and if you had three dates this week so that's

three nights you've not been with the people that you actually care about that care about you with whom you enjoy being no you went to try your luck at a lottery and bring those dates into your life they we created something very weird here in you know I meet somebody I go out with you for a few weeks a few months and then comes the big reveal and I bring you to my friends you know bring the person over you will have a ton of data points I was planning to go you know do a

picnic in the park I was planning to go for a hike I was planning to go mountain biking I was planning to go see this exhibit would you like to join like as in I was planning to go with friends or I was planning with friends and alone too same thing but especially with friends but even alone it's something that you actually had an interest in doing any I was going to go do this would you like to join me you will have first of all you will experience something together you'll be in a situation

then you'll see how this person interacts with everybody else around then if that doesn't work you're not going back with that pit in your stomach to your friends to say didn't work what is is going on in my life at this point this is terrible me I have yet met many people who are telling me they're having a fabulous time on the apps dating I mean it's not a fun experience that doesn't mean people haven't met there lots of people do but the experience itself can be quite degrading and exhausting so I don't understand this

idea of leaving your life going to try your luck and then coming back you know with this emptiness to say nothing happened keep your life and bring these people into your life and they should do the same you you learn so much more plus this face to face in the first date is not always the best way side by side is very interesting we both are looking picking up things on the street did you notice this did you know you know we're whatever we are the whatever the situ it doesn't really matter the situation it's

just that you need the world to interact with and that at first people look at me like but but but you're going to bring those people yes just don't me say I'm me there's this person I'm meeting for the first time I I thought it' be way more interesting to hang with all of you and bring that person along and when they begin to do it it's not nearly that scary but to me the split between our life and our dating is problematic but you already I think highlight uh what you just said is already

going to be revealing for some people in what might be harming their love life which is that that life you're talking about that they're bringing that person into contact with albe it in a you know a way that's not too much is a life that a lot of people don't have already they don't necessarily have correct social occasions that are happening in their life or close friendships that they feel comfortable bringing someone into or in a lot of cases even activities that they themselves enjoy doing and I think so many so much of that comes

to back to why they feel that they need to be rescued from the life they have by this person who comes along is because that world doesn't exist so if you are that lonely and you go on a date and you hope to experience attraction when at the same time you're also hoping that the person will help you transcend your aloneness then you will feel so vulnerable that you will often not allow yourself to be attracted the attraction becomes too vulnerable because with the attraction come all the needs that I bring to you of everything

that I hope you will be able to bring to me or they they that vulnerability causes them to cling immediately try to move so fast without ever really assessing whether there the right kind of Attraction correct correct um correct you get bought on the extremes you get bought yes yes when it comes what do you think of my advice for the dating actually I'm curious It's Just one thought but that it it's one that I've kind of stayed with for a while I I have I actually think we have a lot of overlapping thoughts here

because firstly I used to talk about a great date as being park bench style not dinner style yep uh even if you have to if you must sit at a table with someone try to sit on a corner together not facing each other or sit at the bar I always say CU at least you'll be interacting with the room I am a big fan of walking dates or dates where you're focused outwards movement movement I'm a huge fan of that even if you you know I sometimes think of London and you know start at one

end of the temps you know by the I it was start by the tape modern and work your way up to the London Eye and you'll walk along the river bank if you want to stop and get a drink somewhere you can but then you come out and you keep walking and find somewhere else like that's that has all the potential for an amazing day same idea I think the interesting thing I used to say have a drink with someone before you go meet your friends so you know if you say to someone hey I'm

going out with my friends this evening but do you want to come and grab a drink with me first and that allows the date to be 30 minutes or 3 hours because if you're having a great time with someone you can say hey look you're more than welcome to come join me and my friends and if it's not going great great you can leave pretty quickly it's also a low pressure way of doing it so I actually think your idea is really interesting of the group setting as long as you can play it off as

like not a big deal to you cuz people take their cues from you and if you if you make it a big deal like you're meeting my friends then suddenly that's going to feel like an intense thing for them but I think if you can play it off like actually I'm going on a hike with a couple of friends right um you're welcome to come join I think that's a nice way of doing it it's a seamless integration of of this and I like that idea of getting more data points that you you're getting because

because people do isolate their dating life from everything else all of the other anchors in their life that's correct that also makes it hard for you to read who this person really is or how they interact when they're not in front of the very one person they're trying specifically to impress and often seduce but also all of this prevents you from getting attracted you get attraction from watching someone from how they act how they res you know this is one of the things I love that you say is the idea of watching like even in

long-term couples there's a there's a there's a um a PR quote that I always love and I don't know if you've ever said it but I in my mind I always connect it with your work on Love and Desire but it's the idea of it's about looking with new eyes yeah yeah exactly the Journey of Discovery lies not in secet seing new Landscapes but in in seeing with new eyes and I always love that idea of in a long-term relationship the moment the two of you go back to a a dinner party when you haven't

been out in a long time uh or a social Gathering and you get to observe your partner over there holding court with a few people that that allows you to Freshly see them with new eyes [Music] again thank you so much for listening to this interview with Esther Perell here on the love Life podcast I really hope you enjoyed it if you want to send me an email about how much you enjoyed it or what really spoke to you about it you can email podcast Matthew hy. comom and I can't wait to speak to you

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