The Blueprint for Financial Freedom – Robert Kiyosaki and Ken McElroy

hi this is robert kiyosaki and i'm here with ken mcelroy he is my personal friend advisor investor with i invest with him we've made millions of dollars together and he's the author of the rich dad books on real estate so what we're going to be talking about today is an update on the real estate investing not only in america but throughout the world and the real estate market in the all throughout the world is changing at high rate of speed so this is kind of an update but ken and i will also be talking about the fundamentals of investing in real estate because these are not ordinary times and so many so often i mean people come up to me and they say hey i'm jumping into real estate and i think that's one of the most stupid things you can do so with that i'll introduce kenny one of my best friends but also my personal advisor but also a person has made me a multi-millionaire over and over again so kenny what do you have to say to somebody who wants to jump into real estate well first of all i i always ask them why you know it's a lot a lot of people want to but i think they feel like it's super easy and they can get rich quick so that's usually the reason they say it but if it's uh not always but sometimes it's a long-term strategy and then if they say that then i love it because then that's really what it is it's a long-term strategy of cash flow correct and so let me give you kenny and i come from different backgrounds when it comes to real estate i was i've never been in the real estate business i don't have a real estate salesman's license or any of that so i went and took a real estate course way back in 1973 it was 300 i was watching a tv infomercial in hawaii i was still flying for the marine corps and i asked my rich dad is can you teach me about real estate and he said that's not my job your job is to learn about real estate so why don't you just teach me so that's not my job so he says go learn for yourself and so i was still when i was in honolulu i was flying out of hawaii and i was watching this infomercial that says you too can become a multi-millionaire with nothing down investing in real estate so since i had nothing down anyway you know i called up and i said sign me up so the course was free the introductory course was free and so i strolled into it and it cost 385 dollars which i really didn't have because i was making about 600 a month as a marine pilot so 385 was a lot of money a lot of money for me but i signed up for the course i figured out how to get the money as we can all do and i took this three-day course and that's how i started in real estate and the most important lesson my advisor or the teacher gave me the guy was sort of like ken a real real estate professional he said to our class there's about 30 of us in the class and he says ladies and gentlemen your education begins the day you leave this class and it says what you do when you leave this class is will determine whether or not you become a real estate investor or not and his assignment was that each of us in the class had to look at 100 properties do a one-page evaluation on the property why was good or bad pros and cons of it in 90 days so the assignment was 100 properties in 90 days one page written written a documentary why it was good or bad evaluation not very sophisticated and everybody in the class let's say those 30 of us we all agreed we'd all do it at the end of 90 days i think five of us completed it which is usually the stats there are about it and so let's say 25 dropped out and that's why they're not successful so one of the things i and i was looking for a nothing down piece of real estate and i found on the island of maui which as somebody may know some of the most expensive real estate in hawaii and i found a one bedroom one bath condo on the beach it was 18 000 down and that's and i so i gave him my credit card i put eighteen hundred dollars down and i made twenty five dollars a month in other words i made twenty five dollars a month with nothing i use a hundred percent debt so the course kept the promise that they would teach me how to make nothing money with nothing down but i had to do the work so that's how i got started in real estate so kenny how'd you how did you become get started in real estate thanks robert um well it's interesting now people look at us now you know we have a billion dollars in real estate and 10 000 apartments and 300 employees et cetera et cetera et cetera but i started very similarly like you i was in college 30 years ago and my buddy said hey would you manage this apartment building you know for free rent and i said yes i will because uh you know free rent is good uh and i was on you know i was racking up student loans and going through school and so the idea of managing uh property was only 60 units but i remember um it wasn't easy and uh you know collecting rent and maintenance and all that kind of stuff i was like how hard can it be so uh that was my first experience in real estate really and and the guy who owned the building came you know i would deposit all the money and then he would show up and there's nice mercedes and uh he would sit down and go thank you very much for keeping the property full you know and then he would drive off as a mercedes and i was like okay i'm on the wrong side of the desk here like something's all something's wrong and i was just finishing school i was in the business uh school and um and so really i just decided at that point i was gonna get my real estate license at the same time so i started to get my real estate license and um got that and then i went to work directly right out of university for a very large company that does um commercial real estate and brokerage and land development property management and all that based in seattle which is where i'm from and boy did my education start there i started managing properties and so for the first 10 years of my career i was managing properties i probably managed somewhere between 20 and 30 000 apartments up and down the western united states and then at some point i decided to uh start to buy them and own them myself and and so i've been doing that for 20 years but i've been in the real estate business for 30. so the point that kenny makes which everybody should listen to there is that he got his experience and he got experience not in the acquisition necessarily but the hardest part about real estate was just the management and when i look at people when i look at people who lose money in real estate they're pretty good at buying because almost any idiot can buy a property you have to be very smart to manage the property and i think and so that's why when kim and you know when kim and i started investing in real estate 30 something years ago is that we bought our first property but she managed it and that's and then although she has a business degree that's when she really started to learn about business is not only not only acquiring the property was a was a two bedroom one bath house in portland oregon but she learned more by managing it and i think that's one of the key reasons that people fail at real estate because they can't manage and so when kim and i met kenny and he found out he could manage real estate he was like a godsend to us you know god we wanted we really wanted to partner with kenny so kim and i at that time had about 40 rental units and so kim asked kenny says kenny would you manage my properties for us i don't remember if you know what you said to her kenny but you deflated her balloon so hard i'm sorry you know it was it was like because up to them we thought we were donald trump we had 40 units you know and what did you say to her about well yeah i i just you know what happened is as you evolve and you start to buy properties at that point i think when robert when you and i met and kim um you know i had already owned you know several thousand units at that time and we were just handling properties that were 200 units and larger so that was uh you know because it takes a lot of effort to manage anything so a 40 unit building is hard so is a 200 unit building but really they're not that much different the basics are pretty much the same and so a 40 unit building is not very profitable or even you know 10 unit or 12 unit or 8 unit it's not very profitable for any property manager really so that's why i had already you know been in the business long enough to know that 150 to 200 units is really required for us in order to even make a profit in the management side so that's one of the biggest lessons that i if you could listen to what what the fundamentals are is start small and as kenny knows kim is a far better real estate investor than me because she has the management experience and management of property is the management of people and when i was a when i was a kid starting out when i was 10 years old one of the first shows my rich dad gave me you're and me mike was in hawaii went on we collected rent you haven't lived until you've collected rent yeah you'll hear every story every lie every victim everything you could ever think about and so mike and i be pounding on these doors as little kids and say hey you're 30 days your rent's behind and then you hear lie cheating stealing bs and all this stuff and the hard part was if we didn't collect the rent i we had to go talk to rich dad so the question for mike and me was which is worse this tenant or rich dad and finally we grew some backbone or what the mexicans call some gahonese and we started pressing the guys for the rent and it was even worse when they totaled it you know sometimes we peek in the unit and these guys had dogs and chickens and cats and donkeys inside their units and they were destroying the property and that's when you really start to understand management so kenny is is that true today i mean yeah yeah so as as you know the back story of how kim and robert i met was i i was already in the business full-on and um i actually read i was raising money and this guy said to me hey you should meet robert and kim because we uh both lived in phoenix at the time and uh i went down i read your book before i met with you robert uh rich said poor dad and i said i want to know you know get in this guy's head and figure it out and this was brand new the rich head porta was just out it wasn't the big hit that it is now but i remember in the book you actually said the most important person on your team as a property manager and and so i had actually never read that before because i knew now keep in mind i was in the trenches at that time and most what happened in my world was people would buy real estate uh you know i had i have a great story of a guy that he had a property that was 75 units fully rented cash flowing like crazy he was out on a sailboat he lived in san diego and a broker convinced him to sell that and to buy a 140 unit in mesa arizona okay so he did that it's called the 1031 tax deferred exchange but here's what here's what i remember the most he called me the day they were closing he said we need a manager and and unfortunately this is what happens so what he really needed was a property manager to actually look at that 140 unit in mesa and tell them whether it was a good deal or not because the broker they're just working for commissions the property managers they're the ones that actually have to make it perform and so what happened was he was so far behind he was already committed and he had to close and so he ended up buying it and here's the here's the problem the property was filled with a bunch of bad things so we we actually had it was already had a lot of vacancy it had a lot of deferred maintenance and in addition to that we had to evac we had to um evict a number of people that weren't paying rent because you know why would you rent to anybody that can't pay and so pretty soon the occupancy on that thing was like 60 70 percent and so then you guess what he did he fired us you know what i mean he's like oh it can't be my fault you know and i'm like dude like you know you know you bought a mess and so we'll clean it up for you and it took a while it took like eight or ten months but finally i he was trying to put you know project back onto me like as if i had something to do with that i'm like all i'm trying to do is fill this thing up with good people you know and he's like well now i'm like flying over to phoenix all the time i'm working all the time i go dude you sold 100 occupied boat property that had a lot of cash flow you're sitting out on your boat and now you're flying to phoenix and you bought this property that's you know in a borderline area it's your own fault he didn't want anything to hear about it and the the point is is that you know people like you said in the beginning robert it's easy to buy something it honestly is easy you know if if you if you have money or you can you know or you have a cr you know there's lots of money being thrown at real estate right now it's not that hard to get money having money can be very dangerous you know and so people are doing that right now and this is a that was a great example where a guy you know he just he had he had a comfortable life and then all of a sudden it was riddled with and he fired the property manager after that and then after that and they end up selling the property again for a loss and some and sometimes those are your best investments yeah i know i know i wish i i wish i was just managing property at that time and i wish i would have had the cash because i would have went in and swooped in and and uh bought that thing because it really you know it takes a while to turn around a property you know in some cases it's taken me a year year and a half on big ones you know we have a we have a 680 unit property in san antonio texas for example it was i think remember you and i went to it it was 300 units there were 300 vacant when we bought it wait wait was worse than that it was the worst property i've ever seen we walk into the first unit all the walls are taken out because they took all the wire out of it and sitting in front of the fireplace was the toilet i'm looking at that i said and kenny says god this is a good said jeep an effing toilet sitting in front of the fireplace all the drywall was taken out all the electrical all the copper wires taken out and there's no carpet and i said kenny says this is the best deal he's ever seen this is the worst i've ever seen so that but the guy i listened to was the guy that turned the property what was this ken his name was ken also yeah remember and yeah no you're right he was the property manager yeah he looked at this thing and says this is a he said to me on the side he says this is the best deal i've ever seen is it you guys are nuts or i'm i'm blind i'm missing something here and that turned out to be one of the best cash-on-cash returns we have still in the last 10 years has been the best deal that i've been able to buy you know we bought it for 25 million uh we got the bank to write down another three so our basis was like 22 and then uh we put seven into it and now it's worth over 60. and and we got our money back and and the bank launches the money to rehab it right yes right right so that's and that's the that is actually the power of real estate investing is seeing that you know as you say robert a lot you say you know deals are done in your mind you know it's something that you see that no one else sees and i i knew in two years i would be able to turn that property around put new debt on it get it get all the investor money back and own it free and clear as we like to say infinite returns yeah infinite return is we get money but we have no money in the deal right we still own that building we have 30 million in equity in that deal just the one and it kicks off about 800 000 a year in cash flow and we have no money in the deal and that's a property that we own right now today and because it's real estate we get to write off depreciation amortization and appreciation right right it's really a great deal the point here as i want to make is this is that if you can't do that you should stick with stocks and bonds because there's one word about property that is bad property is not liquid now there's the moment you buy it you own it and if you've made a mistake and it's ss titanic you're going down with it so that's why you better know what you're doing before you buy it because if you make a mistake you can't sell it and that's what i see happening to so many people they just jump into real estate thinking it's a mutual fund or an etf or an rait but then they can't get out of it because it's illiquid and so that's why real estate requires much more financial education in real life education than stocks and bonds and mutual funds any comments on that kenny yeah i think that probably the the thing that i would just want all the listeners to know is that before i buy something on i mean literally before we close on it we already know what the value is going to be in year one and year two and year three and we already know how we're going to get our equity back and it's almost never via sale almost never so in other words we don't buy to sell we buy to hold in cash flow and it's a very different philosophy and that takes a tremendous amount of experience and education and a team to do it yeah yeah it's so worth it you know but the thing is even if you don't know how to do it you know there are lots of people that will help assist you in that remember i was telling you about my billboard story you know you know how we're buying billboards i didn't know anything about billboards but there's lots of people that know them there's lots of people that that put ads on them there's lots of people that own them there's lots of people that manage them but honestly a year ago i didn't know anything about them and now we're buying them as you know because they're real estate and um but so i just found the people that could help me understand it that's all and they're out there and these people are everywhere and that's the mistake the guy from san diego made is that he just thought well i can roll my money from my san diego property into one in phoenix and it's going to do the same thing and you know i don't really need a team i don't really need i don't need to understand it because it's going to be full just like the one i have what's not the case he bought it in a very bad area and so you have to have that team and there's one more thing that i learned the hard way is that when a salesman a real estate broker as i would say the reason they call them brokers is because they're broker that you are and they have to sell you this property and it's not against the law to lie so they'll give you all these numbers called performer and a lot of times performer really should begin with the words once upon a time or in a perfect world no lies so kenny when i if i was a if you're looking at a property like my the building i'm in right now which i own and i gave you a performer you know the sales the broker gave you a performer would you believe the numbers well no you know there's there's several reasons um you know i always i always take the position that they're um you know that they maybe they are trying to lie but i always take the position that they just don't know the property and uh so a broker doesn't understand management generally most of them some of them do some of their very good ones do but most of them don't most of them are just trying to get a listing and sell it to the next person and move on and mission yeah their commission or you know as we like to call it tips you know but the and so so that's the position i take every single time i take the position and so i always you know because i have the knowledge and the experience then i'm always managing the broker so i'm always saying well i understand that i just had this scenario two weeks ago i understand that you started your your first month at 92 occupancy in your pro forma or your budget but the property is at 78 occupied today so if you buy it today the beginning number should be 78 percent not 92.

so how can you you know you know what i mean so you just get into the nuts and bolts of what really is and so you what you're always trying to do is you're always trying to buy the property on how it's operating today period that's what you want to buy it on you want to buy it on how it's operating today and then you want to turn it into some value well this is my question because this is what i this is what i was really weak at which kim is really good at is how do you get the real numbers so when you're working on a property you have that you have the stuff that the sales sheet the broker gives you but what do you do next if you're interested to get the real numbers it's a great question so here's what we do first of all they're almost never correct as you pointed out when you get them but the but if you know what the area if you're if you're really studying an area and you understand an area so you know we'll just pick san antonio like where we were what i knew was even what the broker had was lower than what the market was so it's the equivalent of seeing a you know a 200 000 house in an area where everything's selling for 250 or something like that except it's on the red side so so i already knew that but i actually as you pointed out i already knew it was worse right yeah i already knew that you know whatever the broker said it was because what the brokers do is they take whatever the last few leases were even even that might be wrong and then they make say okay that's what the whole property is well really there's what we call legacy issues we've got tenants that have been in there one year two year three year five year in this particular case even longer their rents might be one two three four hundred dollars under the market and so what you have to do is understand that there's a lot of room there and so what we do is if we see that there's a lot of market lift even from what the broker says to what the market is then we like to go in and make an offer and and then from there we get into due diligence and that's where the magic happens so we will we'll pull every single lease on every single file so on the property that you visited robert um the backstory of it is you know of the 350 units or plus or minus that we're occupied we pull every single lease and we do our own rent roll and we figure out what our own rents are you know what i mean and so that's what we did and then we put together our own projections based on our due diligence time frame so folks so for those who listen to this thing if you're just starting out in real estate don't jump in don't start with 100 units you know maybe start with a duplex or four units and then you'll learn more from those four units and if you've made some serious mistake you might be able to get out quicker but when people buy large properties they can't get out that's when the whole thing comes out like a house of cards so that's that's that's what i enjoyed about kenny working with him because i learned more from bad properties than from pristine properties and so anything else would you suggest that people look at and do before jumping in yeah well i think what happens is um you know what you want the biggest thing for me is you can make sometimes you can even make a mistake on the buy in a real estate market like in other words you know maybe you're buying in at and you're not getting a great deal but if the market itself is really jumping you know like uh like phoenix right now as you know robert is one of the fastest growing arizona was the fastest growing state in the in the country last year uh well okay so that's a result of a lot of job growth a lot of population growth and people are moving here et cetera california va people leaving california that's right yeah because of tax and high expenses et cetera et cetera so so you what you can take a look at sometimes that will save you so in other words sometimes demographics when there's stress on supply and demand so there's more people moving to arizona than there are housing let's say well then housing is going to go up period rents are going to go up land prices are going to go up all that's going to go up because there's a lot of people trying to buy in an area that has you know small demand uh it can work the other way around as you know like in detroit you know what i mean when everybody moved out um not everybody but you know when the manufacturing stopped and blow up and all of a sudden the real estate started to go down so sometimes you can buy in a market and the market can save you but you really need to understand both yeah so for those of you please pay attention because remember our friend uh richard todd yes i remember this he's he's the funniest guy in real estate i've ever seen he said he's such a dear friend of ours but we just friends because we need some entertainment in this business remember we were on stage in singapore and uh he put that uh map up on the behind us yeah he this is the guy here this time sir richard says yeah i did i did what you guys advised i'm investing in america and what was this mistake kenny okay so first of all he's like we're on stage and he's happy remember this he was so excited like i finally bought some i finally bought some real estate and uh so the first piece that he bought was he bought a um a church remember yeah and then he i said oh great so that that's that could be a good investment how much is the church paying you well i felt bad charging a rent so he bought the building but he didn't have any income that was the first thing because richard richard and veronica ted are the they're true christians and i i i reserve those words for true christians they really are they practice what they preach they're very good people incredible people but it was funny because i said okay well richard when you buy some real estate it's okay that you bought a church and let them rent free that's fine but but it's not necessarily going to be a good deal for you and uh you know unless the church goes up over time but the on the one though with that that then he showed the picture of the united states and keep in mind we're in singapore and um he's like had a dot he said i bought a property right here i remember we turned around and we looked at it on the screen and uh i said i go to richard i go richard i think that's mexico and it was it was mexico he bought a property he thought in north america but it was in mexico it wasn't even in the united states but this is a guy with money that you know just sent his money wired his money around and bought properties uh unknowing that and he also bought it i remember he bought a hotel that was half finished and all this stuff it's that you know so there's a lot of people that do that a lot of people that throw their money around like that so richard the good news is richard's got a lot smarter because you know the way we all get smarter is by being stupid we've all been stupid made our mistakes so he's become very very successful but rich does one bad habit he starts big yeah yeah our lesson is start small yes mistakes are smaller so the other point we can get on with this is that markets are always changing and you know kenny one thing i respect about kenny as a real professional you're always attending seminars and classes and you know things like that i remember the last time i one of the last times i talked to you you went to a real estate seminar run by millennials who were teaching how to use uh yeah information ai yeah yeah yeah yeah so i flew to seattle um you know it's cool because sometimes when i do go to those they want me to speak and so i did speak up there with the bigger pockets and a bunch of guys you know because there's a whole generation coming up behind me and it's so fun to watch and and so they're trying to figure out how to do more with less you know through uh apps and cell phones and things like that and the the fact is is that the real estate industry largely even property management is antiquated you know it's a lot of paper and a lot of this and a lot of that and so these guys were fascinating to hear you know they were these guys were managing hundreds of houses you know all automated you know with apps and property management uh tools on their phones and it was for me it was really eye-opening and the great thing is i i was able to come back because we have a property management company as well that's where the majority of our employees are that and i was able to sit down with the ceo of our company and and and start to overhaul our whole company and say hey how do we automate more how do we automate all the way how do we make it easier for the resident how do we make it easier for the property managers and easier for the investors so that everybody can see everything and be super transparent so it was exciting and you know markets are always changing but you know around 2006 2007 you know we had we didn't have as many properties as we do today but people were leaving our properties to buy these giant homes i mean ken and i were sitting there our vacancies are going up because people are leaving to buy these mech mansions they can't afford remember that oh boy do i ever yeah we i remember because we screen all of our residents obviously you want to so you have to you basically they pay you to run their credit and you want to obviously if you're going to rent something you want to rent it to somebody that can afford it and so you know we get all their data you know we know where they're working we know you know their past credit history all that kind of stuff and so at the same time that we're actually denying some people those people who are actually buying condos and houses so the people that we were actually denying to move in as a renter uh and so that's what remember i remember you and i were sitting there and i said oh uh robert i'm telling you what i'm seeing at the uh at the occupancy level is that we're we're actually seeing people with pretty bad credit that are um that can't even really afford to pay rent that are actually buying homes right now and i said this is going to turn into some kind of a big bigger problem so i remember you know it was kind of frightening because our vacancies are going up when vacancy goes up you know cash flow goes down for us and all we could say was let's just wait because something's going to happen and when it happens we'll move back in yeah and that's what we did yeah 2008 yep it took years but it did happen so when lehman brothers came down in september 2008 that was kind of a sign from god because that's when we moved in and fast that's because prices of real estate were coming down and interest rates were coming down yeah yeah it was a perfect storm wasn't it it was it was you know it's interesting because all if you really want to get super simple about what happened people were giving people money that couldn't pay it back period that's what happened and that all of a sudden everything fell that's why they call it the big short being a people that recognize that uh you know you can give anybody money anytime you can give a hundred bucks a thousand bucks a million bucks if they can't pay it back there's a default and that's actually what happened on a big big scale so what happened after the crash so that's when all the banks and institutions started taking those that real estate back and so wasn't that when you made some of the best buys ever absolutely that's you know that's when we saw that san antonio property you know that was owned by uh bank of america they had lent on that and uh it was 50 occupied and and it was what we would call bank owned and you know so yes that's when you see all those things it's incredibly difficult at that time though robert as you know to buy because they're everybody's everybody's scared everybody's hunkering down on their money the investors are going real estate's a terrible terrible time and so that's when you have to have your team together you have to have your systems together and you have to be ready for that and that's what most people miss most people jump in when all that's fixed you know and and you know i remember i remember we were joking i said you know when when the the checkout person at target is giving me a real estate tip as i'm christmas shopping i said there's a problem or you're hearing at a lot of cocktail parties the party's over folks you know at that time and you know and right now it's kind of the same time as even though i i still think we have a lot of run in in the market in in some areas not all uh you know it's it's um it's a dangerous time to come into the market and that's what i was getting at is because when ken this is in 2007 2008 everybody was flipping houses and that's when you know i was talking to kenny and he says i don't flip and i said i don't flip either because ken and i are cash flow people we want the property to pay us an income for the rest of our lives or as long as we hold the property but all these people that were jumping in were flippers so they want to make the quick buck and my concern is that's kind of where we're at today and i was looking at the real estate section of the wall street journal new york times and people are just euphoric because the prices are at all-time highs just like the stock market the nasdaq s p at all-time highs right now and that's when the amateurs jump in which includes real estate so that so the part i wanted to get to today is ask kenny what you're looking for because i think we're more cautious now into the in 2020 than we were in 20 208 i i'm more scared i am more scared now than i was in 2008 in 2008 i was just glad it was crashing yeah yeah how how much how much more room do we have in this particular market and where are we and if you look at the money that it's backing off you know rents are topping you know occupancies are not as high as they were cap rates are starting to go up capitalization rates as you know we sold that big portfolio of ours robert almost 300 million dollars worth of stuff in the last 14 months and our cap rates were in the low fours 4. 2 which is really low and so you know if you don't understand cap rates then you better be careful because they're important as you invest and so what we're what we're starting to see i'll give people the the definition of cap rate you gave me a cap rate of four means if a property is a million dollars and you put a million dollars in your return is four so is that how you yeah that's pretty close yes it's good enough and so what happens though is that for that four percent whatever it might be that's generated from the property from the net operating income which is another formula which is basically expenses after income and so what happens though is if that cap rate goes to five then that what happens is the value of the property goes down and you have to jump if you think about this four to five the ratio is 20 percent you actually have to grow your net operating income by 20 just to break even and a 20 growth in net operating income is super hard to do and so that's what's happening right now is we're watching these cap rates and people are buying at three and four percent and you know if the cap rates go down at all and there's any softness especially with interest rates then uh i'm telling you that these properties are not worth what people are paying today and all of a sudden they're going to be underwater with their mortgages or their you know the things they're not going to cash flow like they like they should right so in spite of prices being high the market being volatile and all that are there still opportunities out there there are i i gotta tell you i you know it's interesting i just on my podcast i just had a guy that's investing in mobile home parks as an example and you know mobile home parks were not even on the radar people weren't even talking about them years ago but let me tell you what they are they're land plays covered by rent and you know these are affordable places and so they're buying these things you know 100 200 300 unit mobile home parks and they're you know the rents are six seven eight hundred dollars a month you know they don't actually own sometimes they bring their own and they they stick it there but they get basically a rent for the space and you know the people own their own place or in some cases they own uh they don't own their own place and they just charge them rent the point is is that more more and more people are are moving to what what i would call affordability that's one of the big things you know is you know affordability and rent control all that stuff's coming robert as you know it's already here so anyway um well thank you for your time thanks for your education there's always an opportunity out there but you think you've got to be a professional at this so any final words would you say to somebody who's thinking about jumping into real estate what would your final words be well i buy you three books of course talk about that it's cheaper yeah yeah educational payment education is everything you know as you know robert honestly uh find yourself some mentors find your find yourself a group of people that are like-minded and like to study you know even i robert and you know you and i we study a lot you know that's why i created the kenmacker.