Russ Hudson —The Knowledge Project #91

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The Knowledge Project

Author and co-founder of the Enneagram Institute, Russ Hudson, explains how the Enneagram was developed, how it helps us grow personally and with others, the nine interconnected personality types and what it means to be present. ✩THREE THINGS✩ 1. Follow us on Instagram HERE: 2. Subscribe to The Knowledge Project Podcast (Apple Podcasts: | Spotify: | Google Podcasts: 3. Check out the full show notes including how to get a complete transcript: AND ONE MORE THING ... 4. Over 300k people read my weekly newsletter. Sign up now -------- #TheKnowledgeProject #ShaneParrish #RussHudson

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Russ i've been so happy to talk to you man well thank you shane it's a pleasure to be here i've been looking forward to this for a long time how did you get started with the enneagram well like a lot of things it's not a simple or a one-shot deal um i you know like a lot of people back in the 1970s i was looking at Various uh systems of spirituality i was checking out indian gurus and i was going to churches and i was doing all kinds of stuff but i encountered a book called in search of the miraculous and it was it was a book written by a man named peter ospensky but it was about the teachings of gurdjieff and George gordjeff was a greek guy who brought the enneagram symbol and the teachings around it into the modern world so i was really impacted by that book and after searching around for a while i actually found um a an ongoing real gift group and start studying it and that was long before i learned about how the enneagram could also be about Types because the original sensibility it wasn't that but you know it was uh this the stage two of that process was that i read the first book of my friend don richard riso and that book was called personality types came out in the mid-1980s and i was so impressed with it that i sought him out and it turned out his he lived about a mile away and his office was even closer So we started talking and i started working with him oh that's awesome and you've been doing that ever since yes indeed so uh i was thinking about how to approach this with readers or listeners in this case and i think there's just so much mystery around the enneagram so we can start with the basics and like work our way up so what is the enneagram well i think it gets uh complex for People around the fact that it is more than one thing originally the enneagram is a symbol and it's uh it's a circle with some inner lines in it and some people think it looks like a pentagram but it's not a pentagram it's uh in fact there's a there's triangle in the middle of it uh but it that has certain esoteric meanings the the symbol itself it's looking at the relationship between What things are in their fundamental nature you might say as consciousness and it's looking at how things come into form and the relationship between those things but the the part that got popular is that um a man named oscar chazo studying the symbol in relation to a lot of other long-term spiritual teachings shall we say started to see some connections and Brilliantly saw um that there was a sensibility around each of the nine points the enneagram is a circle with nine points on it and he saw that there were elements of character that have been studied for thousands of years that fit in a certain pattern around that symbol so i think the part that most people learn about is this nine The nine points and how they are actually representing facets of humanity i think sometimes people take it too far and the sort of popular version of the enneagram that is also a turn off for some people is that it's nine boxes which box do you go in right but that's not really what it ever was originally it was originally about that These nine points were gifts capacities that human beings have needs that human beings have but that when we get too identified with any one of them a lot of our total humanity kind of drops out but that we get habituated to live that way so the idea was to become aware of that to free ourselves up again i think of it as sort of like a topology Yeah i mean most simply that's where it starts it is a typology but unlike some of the others it's a typology for waking us up go further on that yeah it's it's like the way i tend to explain it to my younger students is that you have a type most definitely but you are not a type it's not who you are it's not What you are but just like we have hair color or height or certain print elections we're not born a tabula rasa a blank slate right we have certain preelections we have tendencies we have what psychologists call temperament and it's very interesting that there was a major study of of temperament in infants done at new york university Back in she was early 1960s by two famous psychologists thomas and chess and in that study just looking at it empirically they boiled it down to nine basic patterns of temperament that they found and they correspond very nicely to the nine enneagram points so the idea is your temperament is what you lead with it's How you cope with things when the chips are down there's a certain way you're probably going to deal with some of us if there's a conflict we we get in people's faces some people when there's a conflict we go hide some people when we're in a conflict we start brooding but people have different reactions and so it's it's not really about just giving Ourselves a free pass about all that it's about noticing it so that we have some options and freedom and can choose other behaviors than other than just our default if you see what i mean so is it safe to say that's our default sort of like human behavior that would be your type but you're not necessarily it's just identifying that default but you're not defined by that default And you can overrule part of being human is that you can overrule that default exactly perfectly put you you have this default and it comes in handy and we don't need to knock it we've survived this along with it right and it's very good for certain things the point is when we're just going on default well it's like we keep doing the same dance no matter what the music is And so sometimes that's helpful and sometimes it's not so helpful sometimes it messes things up and so the enneagram originally was always paired with a study of presence or mindfulness and i'll be here now pay attention to notice what we're up to it was to train us in a system of self-awareness so that we could choose things other Than that default and it helps us do that by seeing how we fall into that default how we keep getting sucked into a certain way of being a certain way of reacting to things and again to look at that without judging it or thinking it's bad but just to notice oh i'm stuck i have other options it's like that how is this developed like where did the Enneagram like how did this come into being well there's as i said there's several pieces a lot of credit has to go to a man named oscary chazzo as i said who uh passed away uh just a few weeks ago and he was originally from bolivia but lived a lot of his life in chile and he learned about the enneagram through gerjiff's sources and really was a Brilliant genius guy who was looking at various ancient systems for looking at human development he was looking at ancient jewish and christian sources some buddhist sources hindu sources etc and seeing correspondences between them the way they fit together and so he kind of came up with a map of these patterns Shall we say uh there was a psychologist named claudio neranjo who was a gestalt psychology actually a psychiatrist to be more accurate and he studied with fritz pearl he went and learned this from echazo brought to the united states and started teaching it to a small group of people well subsequent to that it kind of exploded uh my old friend and writing partner Uh don richard riso learned it through the jesuits and he started to write about it it took him 10 years to write his first book it's sort of funny it's i i get a lot of enthusiasm from young people it seems like a lot of people have discovered this work recently and it's not really so much about having a guru tag or being an amateur you know it's not Really about that but i i just forever trying to explain to people you can learn the basics pretty quickly you can learn the distinctions of these nine points and they're pretty mind-blowing but to really master it to make it useful to be able to help people with it takes a long time there's a more than week we bargained for sometimes it strikes me that we're looking for Somebody to tell us why we do the things we do not necessarily wanting to change or overrule the things that we're doing or look inside ourselves and figure out what's really going on now we can just like throw our hands up and absolve ourselves right and say that's right oh i'm i did that because i'm a seven i did that because i'm a four i did that because i'm at three whatever Exactly where where does sort of the enneagram align with and where does it differ from modern psychological research i think a lot of the interesting work that's been done in the last you know 30 40 years has been aligning it more with psychology um certainly uh don richard riso had a master's degree in psychology from stanford And his social psychology as i recall and we had dr david daniels another one who passed away recently who was a a professor uh in the school of medicine at uh at stanford and so there were people some seriously trained people involved in it um and so there was always a wanting to show and demonstrate how the ideas in the enneagram link With things that we've learned particularly from developmental psychology how in the process of forming a personality and ego certain forces get set into play and so i think you know over the years my goodness i've probably trained or taught tens of thousands of psychotherapists psychologists psychiatrists a lot of people and there are they all Marvel at once they get beyond the hearing the cruddy you know pop versions of it and they get into it they're almost universally amazed at how it illuminates things that they learned in psychology and vice versa i think that they're we're trying to be good students of human nature we're trying to really understand what goes on in the psyche and there's a lot Of different avenues by which we can do that talk to me about the role of environment when it comes to sort of personality or temperament well it's a factor and you know people ask all the time does your your enneagram type come from nature or nurture and the correct answer is nobody knows and it's the same with Psychology it's probably both uh what we can say is that the the basic template is there in temperament meaning it's we're born with it we don't know if it's genetic or if it's forms while we're still in the womb but it's very early in other words we're sort of set on a certain track very very early in life in the beginning infancy and before uh it's not like you become a type because your mom forgot your Birthday when you were six that is way too way too late then however [Music] one of the big uh contributions that uh don riso made was that we could be at different stages of development in any of these types we could be in the more healthy expression of them more grounded more heartful contributing not having crazy thoughts in our head or we could get sort of stuck in the more neurotic And difficult manifestations of it and that is definitely about nurture like how much i'm wedged into my type how much i'm stuck in that stuff is a function of nurture because if i'm growing up in a crazy difficult scary heartbreaking environment and that's always going to be true to some degree but if it's a lot then of course the child has to form very intense defenses And those intense defenses manifest as this kind of adhering to these survival patterns whether or not the coast is clear we're going to still experience it as being in a siege situation we're going to keep acting certain ways so what we do we i don't think people can do anything about what their dominant type is but what we can do Is work at freeing ourselves up from the scary parts of it and opening to the beautiful parts of it that we can do we're going to get into the types here i know everybody's just waiting to to hear about the types but before we get there we sort of have to like build this up a little bit right and and figure out like where it comes from and what the limitations are and like How does it help us grow i think it helps us grow um by learning a few things and and the growth comes from seeing our type in action but also comes from learning a different orientation toward ourself we're learning to be self-aware but compassionately self-aware kindly self-aware to not judge ourselves because You know we didn't decide to be this way it wasn't like i woke up i my dominant enneagram point is five i'm a dominant five so i didn't wake up one day and just decide i was going to be this it just happened as i start to see what that fiveness is in real time while i'm doing it not just as a reflection later on but as don and i used to put it to catch myself in the act In that moment of seeing right now i'm stuck in my pattern to take a breath to pause to get grounded to look at it with kindness opens up a whole new toolbox opens up a whole new palette of colors to paint with suddenly i have access when i i always tell people is as we get liberated from being identified with the pattern as we get less stuck in it the good sides of all of the nine points Which also represent human capacities or talents or gifts start to come into play more and more and that's the why we learn it so we can be not so we could just be a type but so we can be a more total human being how do we learn to debug our brain in real time like that seems like how do we like sort of like we have this execution path that's default and habitual and then we want to Intersect it like how do we learn to do that as it's happening and not as you mentioned later which is post and reflection right uh well as i was saying the enneagram was originally meant to go with the prac practices to help us be more present and awake in our life and we do that in the enneagram by learning about what are called the three centers the three Centers of intelligence which is the body the heart and the head the body is kinesthetic intelligence um are you it's instinctual intelligence as i tell people if you're hungry it's not a thought it's not an emotion it's a it's your body in a very direct way communicates that information food is needed right the heart has its forms of intelligence Emotional intelligence right heart has certain roles to play and the head when the head is actually presenced it becomes something different than what we're used to it's not this inner chatterbox it's more a quality of deep listening and not just listening externally listening internally so that you know new ideas new realizations can emerge and we're Not just feeding on the stuff we already have thought or about or already believe so we we learn a practice of getting more grounded in our body in the here and now good thing about the body is it can't be anywhere but here and now it's it's my thoughts and feelings can be all over the place but you know if i can feel myself breathing or Feel my self resting in the chair standing or wherever i am in the car wherever i may be um it brings me into a kind of contact with myself from there my heart becomes less reactive when we're present with our heart it brings out more of the qualities of kindness patience peacefulness um courage a lot of good stuff when we're not Present with the heart we're reacting to everything everything's pushing our buttons all the time positively or negatively but if you take one you get the other and then cognitively we've we as we actually come back to ourselves our mind simmers down and not into a sleepiness but a kind of calm clarity where we just see what's going on in us and around us and when you bring that sensibility To your personality you can see it in action because you're not so identified with it the problem is not that we have an ego and i'm not one of those people who goes around saying you got to get rid of your ego you got to kill the ego i think that's nuts i think that you know even the people saying those kind of things have an ego it's the problem is not that we have an ego it's that we Identify it with it to the extent that we forget there's other parts of us we get lost in certain habitual identities and then we stop looking so we're learning to be present with the manifestation so that has an interesting implication a lot of people think spirituality is about transcending about getting the hell out of here i mean gee whiz we're all suffering a lot of Course we want to sort of shoot off into some you know non-dual condition where we won't be ouchy anymore and completely understandable but ultimately i think that we need some experiences of that nature but the more those are established we start to bring that sensibility to our ego when we do that we're able to live what we've come to understand instead of it being An escape from how we are most of the time i like to think of ego as something that helps us or hinders us and we just need to be aware of where we are on that spectrum between those two at any given time like nothing great would be accomplished without ego we'd never try anything new we'd never uh you know endeavor to do anything Because we would we need to feel confident and where do you think that like how do we identify when it's helping us and hurting us and then a follow-up question to that is like where does confidence come from well it's it's a tricky business as you're saying uh from my point of view the ego is helpful to the degree it's taking its proper place In other words if i'm remembering what i am here and now if i'm presencing with you here and now then my ego is here as what it's for which is to help me function in this world it's a set of habits and customs and protocols and programs that are just helped me to operate in the world and i learned them very young and they still work i don't Particularly want to have to learn how to speak english all over again right so that is very functional and necessary but when we are present in those centers like i was saying the ego more naturally takes its correct position it's meant to be a servant not the master it's a traditional way of putting it and i think that's right Confidence can be different things confidence could be acting tough you know that's a kind of ego version of it but actually organically confidence arises out of our relationship with our body like the more i feel embodied the more i feel i'm here i feel like i belong here like it's in a sense right for me to be here or i have a right to be here And it's it's not an inner debate it's it's not something that needs to be argued or asserted it feels natural so the more we're in our body the more we're in our power and that relates to one of the enneagram points from this point of view each of the enneagram points is a vital ingredient for living a good human life and that's why we want to Learn to embrace all of them and not just act like a cartoon of one of them we're in your experience teaching this to tens of thousands of people over the years like what are the limitations of the enneagram where do people take this idea too far well they take it too far all the time for one thing they try to put everything into the enneagram and there are things about human beings that just have nothing to do with the enneagram Talents for example if you have musical talent or athletic ability or you're you have a good brain for numbers whatever all those things really have nothing to do with your enneagram point they're independent factors um enneagram can help us understand certain kind of emotional problems and things but for others good old regular psychology will do the trick Um i think also the big problem i see you touched on this earlier shane um people learn this and they use it to reinforce their self-concept they use it and oftentimes and this is you know what i have to be very patient with uh i do not bust people on their enneagram type i i don't believe in i think it's rude uh and it's just also presuming that i know That truth which i may or may not um i i find that people identify with the concept and sometimes it's not even their correct enneagram type oh go on so sometimes they like a classic example here in north america is that a lot of people read this or learn it and they they instantly assume they're a four i'm a four because i have deep feelings And well that well guess what everybody has deep feelings and i'm creative well guess what everybody's creative and uh you know there's a lot of attributes that they like and then they're like oh i'm not yes yes or i suffered in my childhood well that's everybody um you know so there's a way that we can use it to actually block it getting to us there's a way we Can prevent it from actually doing its magic we can use the knowledge to strengthen our ego defenses rather than to work through them and that's a common problem particularly now that so many people are learning about it quickly online from people who never studied or trained in it who but who read a book or two and learned the Basics and the the danger of the enneagram is that if you know even a little bit about it it seems like magic like how did you know that how did you know that about me so you can seem like a wise guru and you've just read a couple of books but in point of fact to actually be able to use this in service to ourselves and others is uh requires a long apprenticeship In acquiring those capacities skills i talked about presence skills and learning to be with people in that that that takes time alexander pope had that poem where he said perry in spring right a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and we read a website and all of a sudden we're experts and we can teach it to everybody else yeah and and that's the thing um i i Have a friend named suzanne stabile who uh co-wrote a book called the road back to you with uh a man named ian kron and their book is hugely popular it's just out recently and um it's uh it's particularly popular with evangelical christians who are the new group that's just flooding into awareness of this and it's Understandable i think a lot of christians are seeking a deeper more mystical relationship with their faith stands the reason the enneagram has some of its roots in christianity so that would be a natural but suzanne was talking with me the and she asked me this great question and just to paraphrase that she's saying how do we old-timers um hold the enthusiasm and energy of all These new people when a lot of that enthusiasm is based on an assumed knowledge or mastery of something that we've spent decades our whole adult life trying to master right you're not going to figure it out in five minutes on the internet right right yeah and just there's a thing here that it does reveal to me is that it is true that everybody Has access everybody has a point of view everybody has some kind of truth but sometimes in that conversation what drops out is the value of experience that you know there are people with more experience and some things like working with people's psyche you kind of want some kind of a little more experience i don't want to go and get brain surgery from someone who's Just read a couple of medical books i want somebody who's had experience in how to do surgery and and had medical training and so forth and the enneagram in a sense we're we're going into the core motivations so it goes very deep it's not like myers-briggs or some of the others which is no dis to those systems it's just that the Enneagram is looking at a deeper layer of human motivation so it opens up a lot more for people so i i i'm just i suppose i'm just advocating for the fact that we need to be humble and patient in learning it because it takes a long time can we dissect experience a little like as you were saying that i was thinking back to the study i read a while ago about doctors and it was like they Stopped getting better after sort of like five or six years of practice so experience beyond that point doesn't actually correlate and i'm going to have to look this up and try to find it for people but experience doesn't correlate for beyond a certain point like at what point like what is experience is it is it just that you've gone through something or is it the reflection component that you thought about it and Then you come up with sort of heuristics on the other side of it or an understanding or simplicity because you've gone through the complexity walk me through your thoughts on like what experience actually is oh what a cool question um yeah there's well there's some elements to it in this work that's a little different than maybe What they were finding in that study and if i look at it more from a medical or a physiological perspective one thing that they were studying out in california a few years back at ucla medical and some other places was the fact that what we're calling mindfulness or presence changes some things about the human brain which isn't surprising to people who Have explored it but you know it's interesting that they actually were looking at this they were doing real-time brain scans and they were actually studying um people with ocd obsessive-compulsive disorder and seeing what methods helped them because it's known as a cognitive disorder um when they did this study they gave placebos they Gave drugs they gave them different things to do they did different kinds of therapy but they had one group that practiced they learned mindfulness they learned buddhist meditation practice centering presence etc what they discovered in doing these brain scans was something they did not expect was that this the group that was practicing Mindfulness had good results in terms of their ocd but also that it seemed to reactivate what psychologists call neuroplasticity neuroplasticity is our brain's ability to rewire itself now it was thought for many many years that there were limits to neuroplasticity and that basically we were hugely enabled to rewire in the first few years Of our life right and then after that it kind of drops off precipitously but the study suggests to those willing to look at the data that um no we stopped being present around age five or six what does it mean to be present well that's a lifelong study right there i need the 30 seconds internet answer okay the the the short answer yeah well it going back to the centers the Centers are a great way to sort of calibrate that uh am i with my breath can i sense my body here and now that's one indicator am i identified with my emotional reactions and by the way being detached and shut down is a reaction or am i meeting my emotions with a fuller sense of heart is my is there any quiet in my mind or am i completely Identified with that incessant inner dialogue right so all those are indicators on these different fronts and the more we're present the more we are able to access these other resources and the way we learn to do that is simply by bringing attention to those things as soon as i bring attention to my breath to my sensation to the kind of luxurious feeling of Really being here in this body for example just to use that one center the more we tend to be present and we'll start to notice things that we were not noticing before and that's the other sign is that the field of our attention deepens gets crisper and we notice all kinds of things that ordinarily we don't notice because our attention when we're not present is sort of welded to these Preoccupations and patterns and that's what we're looking at with the enneagram that's what our type does without presence it tends to become the survival machine i always thought of presence sort of as where you are on the spectrum between the past and the future and there's only one moment right now and if you're thinking about the future you're not present if you're thinking about the past you're Not present that's one way it can manifest but i would suggest that you can be present to thinking about the future oh go go deeper on that yeah you for example if i'm really here in the moment with my body and breath and i need to think about what i'm going to do next week i can be aware of myself in the here and now And present with the thinking process and planning of that otherwise we start to think of presence as a trance which it isn't that's a common error that people make and this is the experience side of it we think of presence as a groovy place to hang out where life won't bug us anymore right that's the trance of 0.9 for example which is at the top of the enneagram for a reason When we are actually present we're present with content we're present with what's happening in our body we're noticing our postures and how we're breathing we're noticing what's in our emotions we're noticing what's in our mind and as we're noticing again it gives us options in other words instead of my mind just coming back to its obsessions and Its fears and its the paces it goes through every day i use i used to say can you imagine if we could like in the matrix plug something into the back of your head but instead put a little tv screen on top of your head and along with our masks we're wearing these days you put a little screen up there with two little speakers hanging down the side And everybody could see what i'm thinking i think people would quickly realize no one's thinking no one's thinking about anything our minds are on idle just running and regurgitating the same nonsense over and over and over 98 of the time and i'm being kind to think to realize to ponder to to not question as a position of skepticism but question is to really be curious About something is not common and those are attributes of being a little more present i like that a lot okay let's finally dive into these types here yeah this is a question you've probably had a million times but let's go through all nine and maybe you can give the the name of them and then maybe the one or two sentence summary of the key sort of behaviors associated with that Uh dominant type so just diving in a lot of times i like to start with eight and people want to know why don't you start with one well it's because there's a certain order to the way these are they're not a random grab bag and the eight nine and one represent what we call a triad and they represent the intelligence of the body so you go Through eight nine and one you get lessons about embodiment what that means eight starting off with eight it's it's uh we call this type the challenger and it's pretty easy to recognize uh kind of person so the way i like to talk about is what's the gift here and what's the the challenge or the difficulty the gift of the eight is that when we're present and we're connected with what It's really about we feel confident to answer your earlier question we feel empowered we feel not like we're powerful but we are empowered and the more uh we are with that the more we are living life in immediacy and fullness and energy and we got it and we are decisive we don't dilly dally around we're not timid uh The the downside of this is each type the ego does a substitute for the real thing and so the substitute in the eight and the eight part of all of us is to the degree we don't feel that aliveness and energy and immediacy we um we get tough and we harden ourselves and we resist and uh we also control so we become control we control our Feelings we don't want to cry we control um our lives in different ways we control other people if we feel like they're gonna get to us so and to the degree that we're disconnected from the eight gift we're gonna be some kind of a control freak and that can go very far so as i said a person who is an eight is it isn't that they're not engaging the Other uh the other eight types but that that's their the main track they need to be aware of that movement between that alive real sensitive empowerment and that kind of hardening oneself so uh the nine next door neighbor uh don and i call this the peacemaker and each enneagram type teacher each integral teacher tends to have their own names for it but I always encourage people the names are just there to get you started i always use the numbers because they're neutral they don't say anything about the type good or bad and they don't highlight a particular quality at the expense of another but nine's peacemaker is about when we're present we're grounded and we feel at home in ourself and as feeling at home in ourselves we Are our agitation settles we feel peaceful we feel ready for life and we feel more this is the weird thing the more present we are in our body the more we feel connected with everything we feel connected with nature with life we we feel more of the wholeness of everything that comes through our body it's not a cognitive thing so um that's beautiful and a lot of Great things come out of it people who are nines have that beautiful capacity to land and invite other people in for a landing nines also tend to be very creative type that always gets underestimated a lot of great musicians and artists and writers are nines when nines are not so present the what we do is we disengage we're still there at the meeting but We're not there at the meeting we're saying i love you to our partner but we're just saying it and there's a way we we've sort of withdrawn ourselves into an inner world that we then protect against the outer world and that that disengagement and you know everybody does this to some degree nines are just the best at it and it's something we learned to do in Childhood to handle what was scary or overwhelming it's a great example but when we're in there it it's costly in the long run to our relationships to our work and so forth and so there's a way that nines don't really bring their gifts forward even when they're brilliant and so talented you know that that's uh and and so you can get into a place where people just wanting to connect With you feels threatening so you just stay in that inner world so one uh is the reformer i've also called one the educator one is the part of us that really loves integrity that has it's a kind of when we're in our body we kind of naturally don't slouch we're not like all crunched up we kind of when people are present there's a Beautiful alignment and expressiveness to the way people are there's an elegance and a dignity to people who are more present and that dignity and alignment is is what the ones are generating and expressed behaviorally as integrity honesty there's a way that the ones then when we're in that space life feels more sacred and and i don't mean by that according To any particular religious point of view although if you have a religious point of view it would make it more real and immediate for you but people have sacred experiences that aren't necessarily connected with any religious belief so that beautiful part of the self is also about and it's hard to find language for this but it's about goodness feeling good knowing there's goodness in Me so much of the difficult part of ego is that we feel not good so much so that we even get defensive by trying to be badass like you're trying to be bad just as a defense against the despair of feeling the loss of goodness so it's easy to look at the world and see man where is the goodness right and so the one out of presence can't feel or find that goodness in the Same way and so the world seems kind of corrupt nasty um dishonest mean-spirited and so the ego rises up and says well i gotta set things straight i gotta be a straight arrow i gotta and that natural alignment becomes a kind of physical tension because it's all on my shoulders and i'm going to make sure things straighten up and fly right at least in My world and if i can affect beyond that so much the better so it's like being a warrior for goodness but again the ego in trying to do that tends to create even more problems for myself and others i become kind of rigid kind of testy impatient sometimes judgmental not attractive traits and not things that i really want to be but it's it's Out of the ego trying to get someplace that it's is not really his province moving along we come to the heart triad which is two three and four um two is um the part of the heart that where we feel connected with others and you know obviously with someone we are in relationship or love or could be family member could be you know friend but can be with animals You know if a lot of people have their pets and my gosh you can sure have a heart connection with your pet but you can even have heart connection with nature with the sky you know it's the way our heart kind of goes out into some kind of sense of communion and it's also the part of our heart that wants to respond like when we see need when we see hurt When we see suffering there's just natural it takes a lot of conditioning to stop this part of a person can happen but we naturally respond when we see someone in need and that part of us is the two part and it's intelligent the heart is smart it's not just having sentimental feelings when it's liberated our responses to people and their difficulties are intelligent like sometimes we might see someone Crying and we get the the heart wisdom give them space this person needs to cry they haven't cried for years if i go over and and fuss over them that's actually going to stop something they really need to do as you know so that heart intelligence is attuned now when we are not present that beautiful heart connection we can't feel it and the the beautiful attunement The intelligence that gets blurry so we're going out trying to do thing we get more impulsive if we are to to trying to do things for people whether they need it or want it and the other side of it is we're trying to connect all the time which blocks us from noticing the ways we already are connected like if you know i i ride i live here in new york city i ride the subways And sometimes you know without being you know in any way creepy you can just be sitting on the subway or a bus and you just make that little eye contact with somebody for a second just a little smile and a nod and there's nothing that needs to be said but in that moment it's like two hearts said howdy and i'm a human and you're a human and we're on this journey and there's something That can change your whole day if you have a moment like that you feel connected that's right that's a moment of essence that's a moment of a deeper aspect that the enneagram is trying to get us back to that's not weird or far out or these are real normal human experiences that make our life livable but we forget how to get there that's The point and that's the helper that's the helper yes thank you for reminding me to put the name in yeah so that's the helper and you see why it's called that the next point is three and we call this type the achiever and three is having to do with the heart although people are threes might not initially recognize themselves as heart Types because threes are the the doers of them all they're doing stuff they're active they they like to have things to do they like to focus on on getting things done get that checklist done the type is the world who are waiting for this to to get to the the nine items that's right Get through the stuff and get to the goal and and threes are also uh thinkers they can be very smart they they strategic they like to let have plans and lay things out and they like to be logical um all that being said what's motivating them is from their heart because the heart is where we find meaning meaning is not cognitive you can argue endlessly in your head about what's Meaningful but if it doesn't land in your heart you don't get it meaning purpose big word for three is having a purpose and it's weirdly the heart that connects our self as consciousness with our functional life it's through the heart that we feel the connection between what we are beyond our personality and our actions in the world and when that's happening it's what you know in If we're talking about this in the business world what we call flow like me how you sent me heist book flow was about this it's about when you are in that state of flow you're just with your heart you're present you're just doing what you do and you're loving it and that you're not reviewing yourself or worried about what anybody else thinks about you're just into it and doing it and that's and That's a hard thing you just your our hearts get so lit up when we're able to do that and so threes at their best they know that they're finding they're taking their amazing talents and skills and boy they really work to acquire those things but those things are in service to stuff they care about it's in service to what they love and Then in a way what they're doing is like an act of love you know whatever it is whether they're helping out their family or whether they're doing their career whatever and that's a gorgeous way to live when we lose the presence the doing stays but the sense of meaning fades so we think that by getting stuff done we'll get that sense of meaning we think That by accomplishing that goal then we're going to feel all happy about ourselves but you don't need to go too far looking at the hit the newspapers and magazines and blogs to see that many enormously successful people are in great despair get into addiction commit suicide etc because it feels like such a rip off to work so Hard achieve those goals and you still feel empty inside so the three is about that journey back to the heart being there in the midst of what we're doing in this world so you can think of all these as a a journey or a lesson as much as they are a type of person if you are that type it means that's your kind of personal myth that's your life Journey that's your hero's journey you could say so the four and the one i was mentioning earlier that everybody seemed to want to be in north america this is not true by the way in asia uh they don't want to be forced in asia i was i was going to ask you after how cultures play into what how we see ourselves but for let's go through the list first okay so four is that our heart Brings depth and intimacy uh people always say they like intimacy but when it actually starts to happen they sometimes get a little scared because intimacy is the experience of landing the depth of what we are beyond our personality so if we're really identified with thinking that we're our personality when we actually have a moment of intimacy in That moment who am i who is my friend what's actually here it the mystery deepens but as the mystery deepens and we're actually moving closer to what we are beyond our personality let's say our true identity everything gets more beautiful everything's filled with a kind of resonance and mystery and beauty and and fours Are on the lookout for that and when they're in their healthier manifestation they're bringing that to other people they're inviting people into that they're creating a life of intimacy and beauty and richness and they're in reminding other people to come back to their depth and humanity and for fours are the individualists that's right uh i don't often use examples by just i was posting the other day about uh Your fellow canadian uh joni mitchell as a great example of an enneagram four uh who has done exactly what i was talking about as that was her offering to the world when we lose the presence it's as though the mystery and the beauty fade and then the world seems barren ugly pedestrian uh purposeless dull and so forth just as the three there's no meaning why am i doing all This the four is like who am i what am i what is the point of all this uh and there's a kind of existential despair about the loss of this depth and mystery and beauty everything seems ugly i i sometimes feel ugly right um i've lost whatever it was that made me beautiful and so there's a The four in in the fixated pattern is is gets caught up in emotional reactivity because i know that what i lost has something to do with my heart but i can't go to that deeper place without the presence so what i see is all my reactions to the loss that my reaction to this ugly crude senseless world and that and or to myself and all the ways i feel i'm not Being this truth of what i am and so that reactivity kind of engulfs me and then it makes it very hard to have a a good life [Music] so we move on to the five six and seven the head types have to do with being more or less connected with our presence in the head center so so hold on the the Eight nine and one were which type the body or belly body and then the two three and four where the heart and then so the five six and seven are the heads so the five is the investigator that's right the investigator um another popular name is the observer which is fair enough but i think it it muddies the water a little bit because nines are also good observers Nine's observed but observing and investigating are kind of different there's more of an aggression investigation you're gonna go find out you're gonna you know you're not just looking at the beautiful stone you're turning it over and looking what's under it or you're chipping off a piece and looking at what it what's inside so investigator is the five and the the five has to do with the the Capacity in human beings to come to realizations to new awarenesses to seeing new truth and you know think of where we'd be if we didn't have that we'd still be back in caves if we even found caves right um so that capacity is enormous to come to to have a kind of clarity a clarity of thought of communication of perception um and i would add that another big component Here is that when we find our true mind our deeper mind it brings with it a sense of solitude solitude is a kind of inner quiet that's kind of not disturbed uh by the activities of life uh not disturbed by other people so that solitude is kind of like i can hear myself think those are really important and in a Healthy five not only are those qualities there but they're also in service of the heart it's kind of a buddhist view here the the awareness and the realization the enlightenment about what's true and isn't is helping me see what's needed and help people help the world um it's it's in service of the heart Um in service of compassion the other big element here is also as you see what's real you're also seeing what you believe that isn't real so it's the part of us that can liberate us from stuff we used to believe that we now see well okay that was like training wheels it was good at the time but i don't really need that now um and so we can let go of concepts and beliefs and ideas without getting freaked out uh it's and That's necessary for us to grow up and certainly if we're going to get any freedom from our personality pattern so when fives are not so present their challenge area is that they're trying to have that knowing and discerning of truth and untruth and their solitude but without the basis of them so what happens then is my my mind is constantly working trying to figure things out what's going on here What is this what's that what's that you'll see sometimes little kids who are fives going around naming everything like oh that's a there's a truck oh and there's a plane it's like i'm constantly trying to establish what's here and what isn't what's real and what isn't and that can lead to certain kinds of expertise but can also really lead me down a rabbit hole of obsessive thinking and the the need for solitude becomes The avoidance of human contact so it's not true that fives don't want any human contact but they want to be in control of the duration and amount of it oh that's interesting yeah i'll go to the party with you darling but what time will we come home right before i i need to know a destination when we're going for a walk or something like you need Exactly yeah it's like i'm willing to do it but i i the sense of the five starts to be that more than a little will probably burn me out deplete me uh be too much and so depending on some variations within the type which that's another whole topic you know my capacity for being with people is is perceived as limited so then that Can lead me to a lot of isolation in the isolation and weird thoughts and away we go one of the types that when we are having problems they actually look like mental problems it's not some of the types they're still running a company or a country and they got a lot of problems but fives look like they got problems so six um we call this type originally the Loyalist uh although not when we were we don't call that in ireland um the loyalist is uh i also like to call this type the troubleshooter um because a troubleshooter is somebody who's anticipating problems and looking down the road and figuring out what could go wrong and then doing the necessary steps to Make sure that those bad things don't happen or perhaps they're also looking at problems that have happened and considering alternative things to do to create safety and that's what sixes do right sixes are just as much thinkers as fives uh they they're very analytical they think about a lot of things but they're more overtly feeling than fives are they they're more Over openly emotional um they respond more to people's emotions um that being said what is their gift the gift of the the six is the quality of alertness and awakeness and paying attention even the ability to pay attention like how cool that we can be mindful you know that there's that we can gather our attention and notice what's what's going on and that serves them in paying attention To what's going on their life with their families with their loved ones with their company uh etc and success often will get this heart feeling of being entrusted with something there's i it's it's i'm on my watch now i'm yeah i'm in the night watch right a little for you game of thrones fans and i i have a duty to uphold something and to be aware And on my watch i'm going to do my best to make sure these things get taken care of and i'll use my mind to do that and so there's a kind of devoted quality a beautiful sense of service in sixes that i i find very lovely um now when we lose presence um we lose that sense of alertness awakeness that elu it's it's an interesting thing Too that alertness when it's present is also steadying we feel more confident courageous steady uh it stabilizes us somehow when we lose it the awareness turns into kind of hyper vigilance where like we're like deer that just heard a sound like what was that what was that what's going on what's happening next when when's this pandemic gonna be over what's happening here Right and so our minds now get activated and we start to hyperthink and that hyper thinking is driven by anxiety now anxiety then is is not what my focus is my focus is on my thoughts that are generated by the anxiety but i'm now i life isn't to be lived or enjoyed it's to be handled and so i'm like in my mind forever putting out fires fixing problems dealing with life rather Than living and then the stress of that can get really wearing and i can get impatient with myself and others and really kind of into a downward spiral where just i i feel like nothing i do is ever good enough and that that i meant like in a pit of sand that no matter what i do it just keeps getting worse the self-sabotage in that One seems very more apparent yes uh don used to say and i like this that the three uh anchors of the difficult parts of the ego can be found in the nine the uh the three and the six that are on the central triangle uh self-forgetting is the nine just forgetting to be present here i it doesn't matter if i'm here Three is self-deception i am the ego and what the ego wants is what's important and what's going to fulfill me wrong but we have to convince ourselves to keep going with a lot of this stuff and then six is you you named it self-sabotage how i keep my life off kilter so that there isn't the space to consider that there might be anything else going on here Right so then last uh so anyway you get the idea of that being kind of anxious sixes are one of the types that sometimes thinks they're fours because they they when they're caught in their stuff they have a lot of emotions and they have a really low self-concept so they can think their force seven is uh our last stop on the train um seven is also about the head center so we saw That clarity of the five the awakeness of the six seven is the openness of mind this is the enthusiast the enthusiast right and so there's a kind of enthusiastic positive energy curiosity willingness to try things try new food try new experiences travel experience this world while we're here and and that openness also brings a Sense of appreciation that openness experience brings a kind of lightness of heart and makes us feel positive but not a positivity that's an avoidance of difficulty or pain it's the positivity that's there for us when we're having difficulty in pain it doesn't flee because we're having difficulty it's it's the spirit in us that stays There even when we're having a terrible time so when sevens are in their power they're the most exploratory adventurous people they check things out they read they study they learn about a lot of things they if something grabs their attention they check it out and that's a cool thing not only that but they are the ones who bring hope they bring positivity when bad things Are happening they rise to the occasion and and show people that you know don't give up we can still do this they keep the lights on um and so they're the bringers of that positivity when they lose their oh the other big thing here didn't say is that openness is also the experience of freedom but inner freedom it's it's Freedom not as the ego understands it it's it's not that i have freedom it's that my nature is freedom in my soul i am free it's funny how many people discovered that in prison go deeper on that yeah i was in um south africa years ago i used to go there and teach pretty regularly and you know god willing and health permitting i'll Go there again sometime a beautiful country great people but i was uh at robben island and uh went and visited the prison cell of nelson mandela and it was really small and very simple very primitive and just thinking of him in there for years but it was in there that his vision of how to save south africa and end apartheid came to him and if you read his writings It was there when he didn't have the ego's idea of freedom he found his inner freedom now we would want him to have the outer kind too but the cool thing about the inner kind is you can't take that away from somebody right you know people found that you know victor frankl wrote about this yeah i was just thinking that about the holocaust and his experience in Auschwitz right and he said the last of the human freedoms is sort of like the ability to respond yes and exactly and so people sometimes discover these deeper aspects sri aurobindo in india when the great saints of of the last couple centuries of indian religion he also came to his realization while he was imprisoned For sedition against the british government so you know what we're saying here that doesn't mean that it's okay that people are suffering or imprisoned or that's not what i mean but that we will be dissatisfied by what looks like freedom to us which on the ego is having more options having more choices being able to do whatever i want which Is i call that lovingly my inner two-year-old you know but real freedom as one of my teachers used to say is no longer being ruled by an inner two-year-old right it's another thing and you look at these figures who found it they didn't come out and just indulge themselves they were pivotal figures for their cultures so that finding that inner freedom that Positivity is becomes a source of inspiration when we lose it then we're just trying to find what's interesting keep our options open do this do that and the the danger for sevens is that they scatter themselves they're often brilliant talented people but they don't they lose patience with themselves before they get to the gold of whatever it is that they're exploring So uh they're they try this they try not to try that but you can feel the kind of frustration that i'm looking for something i'm trying to find out who i'm supposed to be when i grow up right but the the point of matter is that that mental activity like in the six and the five is obscuring the freedom and the spaciousness That is my nature so just to recap for everybody one was the reformer two was the helper three was the achiever four was the individualist five was the investigator six was the loyalist seven was the enthusiast eight was the challenger and nine was the peacemaker right and like i remember reading um one of your books in preparation for this and you said the dominant emotions In the triad were anger anxiety and shame yeah walk me through that which is which and and that's when you're disconnected with your your your presence right right the idea is that when we start in the course of ego development in childhood to lose the felt sense of what we are which must happen it happens right just for Some reason we go through these developmental stages and that's part of it but in the course of losing that grounding our heart goes into reaction and our nervous system goes into reaction and so we talk about these as kind of emotional instinctual energies that are there in all ego states so there's always some degree of anger or rage And the way we look at this too is that if you dig into particular psychological issues you will sooner or later hit a layer that's just pure emotional energy that what's really there underneath whatever the story is is just a lot of anger that didn't have an outlet and we talk about also how each of these emotions is workable it's not bad or wrong But again if we bring that three centered presence and kindness to it it it finishes its job it does whatever it was there to do and it transmutes into an ingredient we actually need so anger if we're present with anger it only lasts a few seconds when we're not present with anger it can last our whole life yeah i like to think about that as like we often just push feeling actually aside we we analyze it We rationalize it we investigate it but we we do everything but actually feel that feeling and that emotion and because we don't experience it it comes to crop up later and it boils over and we we can't and if you just take the time in the moment to feel what you're feeling it'll pass that's right and there's a difference between This is where some people get scared of their emotions there's a difference between feeling my emotion and acting it out many people think if they feel their anger they're gonna go around smash things or attack people but that's not it the people going around smashing things and attacking people are not in touch with their anger it's going instantly into a behavior and that's how they've learned to Control it but that's not the same as being with it so what does it mean to be with your feelings or your emotions well again it comes down to this acquiring the capacity to be in the body if i'm in the body with anger anger has very particular sensations it usually feels like heat for one thing uh we may feel it in Particular places sometimes it manifests when we're resisting it it locks up our jaw our necks get tense our shoulders there's a whole musculature around the resistance and holding of anger but when we sort of let it go it feels almost more liquidy and it feels like liquid heat and that heat can be useful in dissolving these rigid places where i've been Holding anger so there's a logic to how we unpack you know some people have studied trauma i think of peter levine looked at how animals are so good at just doing going through their kind of physiological paces to release trauma but trauma will usually come accompanied with really big emotional Energies it doesn't always have to be at the level of trauma but we learn from that study that that's how you can work with these things so just getting in touch with the energy of it moving expressing can all help to move anger through when anger is presence it transmutes into Empowerment and confidence and the ability to take a stand to have a voice to speak your truth people who can't be in touch with their anger have trouble with all of those things what do we do with anxiety anxiety is um it's deeper root i i was looking for a long time to find the right word and i use this for the the so-called passion of 0.6 each type has a Particular quote passion but we don't mean like being passionate it means a form of suffering and i couldn't find a good english word so i turned to german and the best word is angst angst which is not just anxiety but the suffering of anxiety the sort of twisted anguished feeling anxiety is you know unprocessed fear oh tell me more about that yeah fear could be you know You see something dangerous uh somebody's approaching you with a weapon in their hand fear is just suddenly adrenaline pumps through your system and activates your arms and legs to move and groove you toward running away or fighting back or or freezing you know fear is you know fight flight or freeze however when we don't process fear it becomes this backlog of sort of jitters and unease and not being Able to sink into ourself and it keeps our mind turning and turning and turning you know i noticed a lot of people um as we're having this conversation we're in the midst of this uh kovid experience across the planet and a lot of people are having anxiety needless to say and so a lot of what's a manifestation sleeplessness a lot of people having trouble getting to sleep at night So this restless quality is is the symptom of anxiety and the mind turning but anxiety when we feel it again it's an energy in the body it feels like like you know like battery acid it's kind of accurate and energized and little electrical feeling when we presence anxiety and we we're with it in the body with the heart with the mind to whatever degree we can It transmutes into awakeness into paying attention because when we're scared we're not sleepy we're not out of it our attention may be misdirected but we're paying attention if you hear a bump in the middle of the night you're suddenly not sleepy right you know you're saying you're activated so when you can relax the tense reactive part of that when you breathe Through the anxiety it becomes awareness becomes lucidity um you know i think it was uh virginia satire who said that um anxiety is excitement without breathing um so they're all workable but again the five six and seven ha tend to have more issues with anxiety the turning thoughts the restlessness and so forth uh sometimes people say i'm not sure if i'm a nine or a five i said do you Fall asleep easily or is it hard for you to sleep there's did your mind keep turning and you can't stop it or are you able to just chill out that's one distinction um that whereas the eight nine and one have more issues with anger and the expression of anger and finding out how to be with anger um the uh the two three and four are about we we talk about shame let's Talk about hurt broken-heartedness if you got an ego you've got some broken-heartedness part of the challenge of waking up is being able to be with our brokenheartedness and my gosh everybody else but it's a weird thing you know we're so afraid of it yet it's the one of the main ways we human beings connect When we can acknowledge each other's hurt and the difficulties and how despite the difficulties we've been through somehow we're both still here well that's kind of remarkable so there's a a sense of being able to learn to be with our brokenheartedness and not be into some kind of narrative or story about it like it's some proof there's something Wrong with me i'm not lovable i'm a flop i'm boring i'm not sexy whatever we have all kind of negative narratives that can come out of that on the other hand the defense against it is narcissistic grandiosity right i'm more loving than anyone and without my help ever the whole everybody in my life will fall to pieces well that's kind of grandiose i i'm the one only one who knows what to Do in this company i can make things happen i'm gonna a little grandiose i'm the most talented person around maybe i'm deeper and more profound than anyone i know really how do you know that that's a rather narcissistic view of yourself i need to be needed i need that validation exactly narcissism if we look at it this way is a pretty normal human thing and If we're going to work with this stuff it needs to stop being a dirty word we need to sort of acknowledge everybody has some but it's to what degree is it running my life and what is it defending me against people are more narcissistic have big wounds and heartbreak around their lovability their value their sense of worth and so they need to create an Inflation as a defense against that so when you're looking at this this underlying shame and hurt the shame actually is the recognition if i can be present with it it's the recognition that i am aware that i'm not being my truth right i'm aware that i'm not who i am and the first step i always tell my students is acknowledging that you don't know who You are is a step into who you are right right to start to feel just that question alive then the shame becomes more of a a fire that's going to carry me toward the truth that will set me free and so everything that we're looking at is workable and that's why we learn it there's no point just saying here's what's wrong with you we already think There's so many things wrong with us this is how the enneagram takes us from what seems to be malfunctioning in us and connects it with what is most beautiful in us that's i think the magic of it it's both yeah what are wings and stress arrows wings are just the idea that whatever your enneagram type the two types on either side of your type on the circle Represent um tendencies or variations on the theme so for example as a point five my wings could be four because going around this goes four five six so my wings could be four or six meaning as a five i lean towards the fourth side of that or i lean toward the sixth side of it now i think the wings are a little more flexible And i used to talk about this with my friend richard rohr who some of you may know and we both felt that people in childhood figure out one of those angles gets my needs met better than the other one right it gets fed exactly you get your people respond you get taken care of by emphasizing some part of your type the Range of your type but as you get older usually in mid life some some people in their 30s some people in their 40s some people in their 50s you start to explore the other wing again like well here's this part i kind of the side of my type i didn't use it's like opening up some rooms in your home that you you you closed off oh yeah There's some old stuff here it's kind of interesting and you start to find this part of the cool thing about midlife and going into your later years is you start to find these other parts of you that you didn't necessarily develop in the first part of your life why do you think we find that later in life i think because as we're getting started in life we're we're sort of eliminating things That don't get what we need and we're putting our eggs in the baskets that seem to provide the best means for us to get what we're looking for and so we narrow our focus we're trying to figure out who we are when we're adolescents of teenagers we're we're trying things on and eliminating things and so we're zeroing in on something but having Zeroed in on it and it producing whatever result it does in the latter part of life we can relax a little bit and say okay what's what else is there in life it's pretty normal you know uh a lot of the people that i end up working with who are in mid or later life that's it like i did x y and z and now i'm feeling like what's the what are these chapters about other than You know playing golf or something right what are stress arrows stress arrows are the internal lines um if you look at the enneagram symbol it's got a circle but each of the nine points has two internal lines connected to it now one of the common misunderstandings is and it came out of one of the uh let's say lineages of transmission in the early days the enneagram Is that one of those directions is good and one of them is bad well it's not like that they both are ingredients that can be helpful because they tend to be ingredients that get dropped when we're overly focused on our core point when we're too identified too stuck in the fixated pattern of our own type we're not conscious of the importance of these other two uh Directions so they're sort of like skeleton keys they're magic so when we're not particularly present these are so important to us we act them out in different situations in life some more generally some our loved ones are going to get so for example um i'm up i'll use my example again i'm a five when i am under stress one of the directions is To seven if you look on the enneagram symbol there's a line between five and seven what that means is i can't focus i can't contract i can't withdraw anymore i'm sort of fiving out if you see what i mean so the psyche automatically starts to compensate by do bringing the opposite which is the seven is to suddenly go out explore things do this do that i I used to say i could tell how overstressed i am by how many books i have stacked on my nightstand because instead of reading one i've started you know six and that's more like a seven in stress so it's not like i become a seven but the seven represents a reaction to me overdoing my fiveness and a necessary reaction right but it's very different thing when i'm consciously invoking The good qualities of seven as a balance to my own type the other direction would be for me as if i would be eight and so that direction i i tend to be more blind to but you know i can be really in the low side but the acting out of that can be real bossy i can be real controlling uh if there's a party going on i'm going to decide what the music is or I'm not going to that party i'm not going to listen to somebody else's terrible mix unless i really trust them now i'm better at that than i used to be but when i was a younger guy but about it very dominating if you guys don't want to do what i want to do i'll go do it on my own uh but i didn't see that about myself you marched to the beat of your own drum and beyond that i made other people March to the beat of my drum but you see i didn't see that about myself but it represented yeah as a five i needed that grounded confident embodiment so that there was an outlet and an output for all this stuff i had figured out so it when i brought it in consciously see consciously is also acknowledging the shadow part of it but there's they suggest paths Of development again [Music] yeah and that's and so that's the really short version of it you could do a big study of those inner lines but some teachers say they they're not really they don't matter i think if you take them out you don't have the enneagram you just have again a tic-tac-toe board of nine descriptions which won't get you too far one of the things I appreciated when you were giving the descriptions is sort of what it looks like when you lose your presence and what it feels like and what happens in those cases so you can sort of like feel yourself slipping away and see what that default response would be how do you think about um the mental biases arising from each of the nine sort of approaches or um types Oh yeah absolutely we all are going to sort for what we value and we're all going to look to certain kind of responses some types are looking for an emotional response they're looking for some kind of visceral real put your cards on the table get in the trenches with me and and so i'm looking for that and my bias is that People respond that way are straight shooters that's somebody i can work with that's somebody i trust some types want to be positive and want to be inspired and want to be reassured and they want to reassure and that's their gift and it's their bias and some types don't want to get into positivity or emotions they want to be logical and reasonable and so let that's what my Prejudice is toward talking about things that way it needs to make sense to me it needs to yeah exactly so i am always um saying that if we're going to be skillful in human communication and working with people we need to develop two other languages we might kind of usually people are really good at one and kind of okay at another and one they Just don't know that language so if you you're gonna be good at this you can be logical and rational you can inspire and reassure and bring positive vibes and you can be real and say what's really going on in you and invite that from others and that doesn't it sounds so easy and reasonable when you lay it out on paper but actually doing it is not that common and how do we use This information like how do organizations use this commonly to improve their ability to hire people or be more productive well you know people use it a lot of different ways um i've used it in a few particular modalities there's things i think it's good for and things it's not good for to go back to one of your earlier questions My friend and colleague catherine bell lives out in calgary and she's been using it in organizations a great bit i have other colleagues here um who have been doing so i find that it's especially good for executive coaching and leadership development and kind of formation and of qualities that are needed for people to be effective in any kind of leadership role in Organizations and i also find it very good for team building and when i'm using it for teams i'm not necessarily focusing on everybody typing everybody in the room oh go on i'm getting more of a sense in a group even a country or a any organization has certain type memes if you like dominant and every group has certain type capacities or Or um ingredients somewhat lagging or in some cases even absent and so you can look at a group that way and analyze what do we do well what comes easily as a group what's been our focus what's kind of okay and what really do we need to put a little loving attention into because in my experience the stuff that you leave out Comes back to bite you on the the back side later on if you don't deal with it what do you mean this stuff you leave out well for example practical example i worked with a number of banks back in the mid to late uh knots you know around 2007 and so and not surprisingly a lot of financial institutions were reaching out for help at that point because in their you know 11 30 uh Wake up call they realized they were in big trouble and a lot of times i would work with a group of directors of those institutions and what we found on their team over and over was they had a lot of energy that another grouping that we use the enneagram a lot of assertive energy a lot of go-getter energy which you would expect from somebody in that In finance and arbitrage and so forth you kind of need to be that right if you're going to succeed in those businesses and so there was a lot of that energy a predominance of those types in the group but also just their overall values were in that direction so they saw a goal went for it there was a certain degree of what i call the sort of maintenance and standards types That were and that energy was there like maintaining things making sure protocols were observed making sure that you know things got connected and there was follow through and all that stuff they had a certain degree of that what they were almost always absent in uh was what i call strategic long view or what in uh in our book we called the withdrawn style which is they each corresponded Types three seven and eight is the go-getters the the assertive the initiators and then the one two and six is um the uh the the dutiful style altruistic dutiful make sure it gets done the mechanical sort of proficiency almost well just making sure that the right things happen um right and and willing to make sacrifices to have that occur right the the four five and nine Are the withdrawn style but in business i call them strategic long view because they're the people who are really quiet at the meeting and sometimes have something to say at the end but their style is to take in all the bits of what's going on and get the gestalt of it and say something about the bigger picture now imagine banks in the mid-knots Making money hand over fist what were they not doing thinking about the future they weren't seeing the bigger picture they weren't seeing the implications they were not hearing that waterfall that they were headed toward they weren't reading the signals they didn't want to because they were getting excited about approaching the goals that they had so when that's a really practical Example and i think a pretty understandable one so when you bring in that view when i work with a group like that i wouldn't necessarily say you gotta hire a certain type that may or may not be practical but we'd look at the group and say who in this group can play that role which one of you could reasonably and then they have an Interesting creative discussion about it so i when i use it in organizations i'm not using it going around typing people because a lot of times people just get obnoxious with that they they use it to make fun of colleagues and everything that's not helpful but i use it to help them see their strengths and weaknesses in accomplishing whatever their particular mission is I think it's also i mean it sounds like you'd be super useful in the context of a couple a relationship right where walk me through that let's let's dive into that sure i you know one thing that don and i always used to say people would ask us questions like which type should i be with i'm this type what would be a good type for me and don's uh funny answer was always Healthy get a healthy type fi the higher side of any of them somebody who's done some psychological work is going to be more of a delightful person to live with and i would add if you want to be with such a person make sure you're ready right what does that mean to be ready well that you've been looking at yourself you know yourself You know your guts you you have some awareness of your strengths and weaknesses and you've done some psychological or some spiritual work so that you are able to engage meaningfully in conversations about these things should problems come up and will problems come up yes how you handle those problems is sort of like everything right absolutely So it gives i think gives a lot of couples language to talk about what's going on with them it helps them see where they align on values and where they see things differently and so when i'm counseling couples that really are committed to working things out with each other uh i'm always saying okay here's where you guys are different how can you turn that into a benefit Where you're kind of coaching and helping each other with something that's your strength but you're also receiving the strength and the wisdom of your your partner who has a different set of values we get into that talking about just the enneagram types but there are all kind of other elements of that like we haven't talked about the subtypes or the instincts it's another You could do a whole oh yeah a week just for that yeah uh but like maybe we could break it up into the triad a little bit and if i'm um if i'm in a relationship or i'm married to somebody who's thinking like how do i how can i go deeper into my connection with them or what if they're feeling what do i do as a partner to to bring that to a more meaningful place or what if they're anxious how do i Respond when they are anxious what are the things that we can do as partners to improve that aspect of our relationship and go deeper with our partner well it's kind of a two-parter and there's general principles i could give us in in the time frame we have um people when they're having difficulties are always hoping That someone will show up for them in the way they would for us when they're at their best for example if if i'm in relationship with a nine when i think about my nine beloved or my nine friend what do they do that's so helpful to me when they're at their best they're just there they're not laying trips on me they're not putting an agenda on me they're not trying to fix Me they're just there in a steady kind understanding way and and in that i can kind of find my feet and and get back into orientation again they're present you feel safe they're present you feel safe not land trips guess what my beloved nine wants me to do right be there in the same way yes now i may bring also the gift of What i can do from my type but i don't have to think about that i just do that very automatically but if i do that in the context of what that person is seeking that reminds them of them at their best which helps them find their center so my eight friend would be really fiercely there with me would be so there would be inviting me to to talk about what i was feeling would Let me know that they're strong enough they can take it let me know right and then and that kind of bid for realness that's what they want they want to know i'm in the trenches with them i i'm i'm with them i'm not feeling their feelings for them but i get it and i'm there and i'm i care right i got you that's it so you if you study your partner as what they do As their gift to you when you're having trouble see if you can bring some of that to them that's one thing the other thing is that by those triads as you were asking me each triad meaning the belly-oriented types the heart-oriented they're looking for certain things from their relationship for the eight nine and one they're looking for respect They're looking for a field of respect so if you look at the 891 even if they're troubled even if they're having a terrible time they can feel if you're there in a way that honors their integrity their autonomy who they are you're with them respecting them and who and what they are even in the midst of their difficulty and they will pick that up because again at their Best that's what they do and that and again it's kind of a non-negotiable 891 um you know if if i don't feel you're respecting me you know the deal's off i'm done with you nines might be nice about it they they it's a namaste with a certain anglo-saxon phrase that follows it uh But uh you know that i've written you off you don't respect me but it's also true that they when they're really angry with somebody they punish people by not respecting them two three and four um want to be seen known and validated you see me you get me you're validating you're you're okaying you're with my feelings all those types may later on want to Sort things out okay let's see what this is really about but that ain't going to happen if first there isn't that sense that you're with me you're seeing me you're getting me you're you're really wanting to know me you care about that i'm having these feelings and you're letting me have these feelings right and they they work that out in different ways it's sort of interesting Because force that's leads they're going to put those feelings out right away and see what other person does the two and three are more cagey i'm not i don't necessarily trust that you will be with my feelings or see me but if i perceive that you do see me and get me and see that i'm struggling and you're making that okay i'm relieved And i'll come forward and i'll i will meet you more um and that you know all three of them really don't expect they they're surprised when they perceive that someone sees them or gets them they don't they don't expect it of course everybody's like that to some degree but two threesome fours that's the main thing and Again when we are not doing too well we punish others by withdrawing our seeing and validation of them we just kind of cut them off emotionally five six and seven it's a little harder to put into words but they're looking for someone who can just be there with them in a steady way not approaching not withdrawing not glomming on or taking over or fixing And not abandoning like you're you're not leaving me and you're not getting into my stuff just consistent consistent right and so if i perceive that that you're just here with me and trust you know and i'm gonna work this out all five six and seven has that conviction i will work this out but if i know you're there you're my Ally you're in this with me and you're not leaving me and not trying to take over and and i all three 567 hate to be the recipient of someone else helping them or saving them right don't solve my problems for me just hold my hand and like go through it with me exactly so uh as as i feel someone will do that then i will start working it out and i'll Feel more connected and and it helps heal what's ever going on in the relationship and of course again five six and seven are the worst in being steady for somebody when they're not having troubles am i in the relation am i out am i too close am i running away i'm all over the place nobody knows what i'm gonna do including me so there's uh That's one bit of uh advice around all that stuff that's amazing um i know we're we're cutting up on time here so two two final questions um what's the best starter material like where can people go to learn more about the enneagram if they're interested and curious well you know there's a lot of good material out there there's a number of books kind of Depends on your orientation i of course am feels that the some of the books that don richard rizzo and i wrote together are very solid and helpful a lot of people would say that the book uh the wisdom of the enneagram that he and i wrote um that's the best one yeah a lot of people you know including other teachers will sort of acknowledge It's like a classic textbook you know i've done 20 more years of study so there's a few quibbles i'd have with things i said in that book but overall i think it it's powerful because it also gives you the orientation it's not just describing types uh there are other we wrote a number of books and any of them would be you know worthy we have websites uh the integral is our just enneagram is um is that is that where people can find you on the internet is sort of the enneagram institute well two places that would be the site that was created uh for don riso and me and our work is on there and our our enneagram test the the ready rheti is on that site uh also uh i have a site just for what i'm doing That includes stuff that i'm not doing with the institute and that's just russ um you know some of my colleagues have done wonderful work um i would say um you know you're better off with people who have been studying this a while um and i would also say that whatever book you look at um consider that it is a view on this none of them is the bible You know none of them is the final say uh and you can you'll feel in just what's helpful what's useful um what actually opens things up for you and what tends to reinforce the other thing i always look for in any enneagram book or teaching or teacher how even-handed is it how much are the teacher or writers prejudices hanging out like they had a bad relationship with the four So the four gets a lot of shade you know or the or maybe it was a three and or some type is still idealized for some reason so when you when you have more mature teachers or teachings there's a fair and uh seeing the light and shade of each of the enneagram types russ thank you so much this has been an amazing conversation thank you so much shane i had a lot of fun these were really uh Good questions for me to think about too

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