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welcome everyone good afternoon this is your host Danny Hong and as you can see I am joined by renowned economists and author co-founder of democracy at work Professor Richard wolf hi Richard how are you doing okay Danny glad to be here and glad to be able to talk about the things that I suspect are bothering you me and a good part of our audience indeed indeed well I wanted to begin Professor wolf with this Donald Trump came Riding on His White Horse into the Oval Office or that's what he perceived himself to be doing and

he declared the decline of the United States of the US is over now that his administration is going to reverse the tide Professor wolf you have one of the I think strongest uh takes and analyses on the decline of the US Empire Trump says he's going to reverse it could you explain what exactly is happening to the US Empire and does Trump have any chance of reversing this at all Mr Trump doesn't Express anything that would give me the sense that he has even the faintest clue about what the decline of the United States involves

and what it represents because if he did he wouldn't have not even Donald Trump would have the audacity to suggest he can hold it back that's that that's a little bit like imagining that that scary runaway train can be controlled if you just say stop or it's right up there with the way to deal with the problem of drugs is to just say no it doesn't tell you anything about the problem but it tells you that there's something wrong with a person who says such things because they're so out of touch so Mr Trump Sur

he blames Mr Biden and by extension Mr Obama or Clinton or bush whoever went before him made a whole host of terrible mistakes which he's going to fix all of them were deficient in putting America first but this one is going to do it you know it's it's it's a kind of cheap theater that tells you about the person putting it on and not about the reality so let me get to answer your question what is the decline of the United States and why what Mr Trump is talking about is not that and why he

what he's proposing is no solution to that the decline has to do with something you might even call Natural and by that I mean every Empire that the world has known from ancient Greece Rome right onto the modern one and indeed the one that gave birth to the United States namely the British Empire of which the United States was once a minor Colony never as important to Britain as India was never as important to Britain as much of Africa particularly in the north was but an important part that it fought a war to keep the

Revolutionary War of the 18th century okay the United States inherited the Empire from the British by the end of the 19th century and certainly by the time time of World War I in the 20th century Britain's Empire was in Decline and the American Empire was rising to replace it and the rise of the American Empire went across the entirety of the 20th century it was a good ride for the United States in the sense that across the rise of the empire fire almost all Boats were lifted white Americans at least enjoyed Rising incomes Rising job

opportunities better housing public schools in the middle and so on the 20th century was a remarkable good time for the United States because we lived in a rising Empire by the time of the 21st century now the last 20 years what we should have known was coming arrived every Empire that went up went down eventually everyone no exceptions the the the betting person would have understood in 1940 or 60 or 80 that it wasn't a question of whether the the Empire and the economy would decline but when and when just came about 15 years ago

the way I count it but give or take it's never something that happens at a moment and here are some of the signs if you like you might have missed one or the other but when you add up all of those I'm about to give you it's UNM mistakable the war in Vietnam was a war between the United States and the Communist Party initially of North Vietnam the Communist Party of North Vietnam won the war and the United States lost the war that's the reality the government of unified Vietnam North and South since that time

since 1975 the government has been the Communist Party the our enemy won we left and lost a little while later we fought a war in Afghanistan against something called the Taliban we lost they won you know who governs Afghanistan now is the Taliban we lost in the Iraq we wanted to do away with the none of that worked yes sodam Hussein is gone but the Shia and Shiite militias and all that's who governs Iraq now and we're in the process of losing the war in Ukraine these are not just isolated events these are one after

the other moreover we are losing in the case of Vietnam in the case of Afghanistan in the case of Iraq against countries our adversary that are among the poorest on this planet here we are the rich Powerhouse we can't win those Wars now that's that ought to be a kind of moment of whoa what's going on here but the the signs are even bigger and easier to list in economics we have a measure for how strong how important the footprint of an economy is in the world of any country we we add up the total

amount of goods and services produced in a country in a calendar year it's called the GDP gross domestic product and we keep records we know what it is for Russia we know what it is for the United States we know what it is for Nigeria and so on okay the GDP of the United States and its major allies add them all up the major allies are called the G7 that's six other countries beside the United States that are lumped together as a solid Alliance although nowadays with Mr Trump how solid it is we can talk

about but those six other countries are Canada Japan Britain France Germany and Italy the G7 the group of seven of these Powerhouse Nations they were the core of the period of the American Empire they were where everybody went who needed money any country wanted to build a railroad they go there make a loan make an investment work it out they go to Washington they go to London Etc now there's a new player in town they are not the only economic power and what it turns out is since 2020 that's 5 years now they are not

even the number one economic power let alone the only one they've been displaced there's another Center for world wealth and power the core economy there is the People's Republic of China with its allies we are called The Bricks b r i CS Brazil Russia India China South Africa to which a whole bunch of other nations have been added now I count them about 22 Al together and what's interesting about these 22 is that together their gdps if you add them up are significantly bigger than what you get if you add up to gdps of the

G7 the United States and its allies for the United States and its allies you add it up it's about 28% of the world output if you add up the GDP of the bricks it's about 37% of the world's output uhoh that's where the wealth is concentrated in the world today not in New York and London and you know what it's showing up everywhere every African country thinking about building a railroad do they go to Washington and London to get financing to make arrange sometimes but they can play these two powerhouses against each other and they

all do they then go to uh Beijing or New Delhi or somewhere and they see if they can get a better deal which they often do which is why railroads right now in Africa are being built more by them than by the G7 and I could go on and on and on the international monetary fund an institution set up by the United States in the G7 and faithful to them and supportive and and bias toward them issues an annual list of how each economy is growing not how much GDP they have but how is that

GDP growing they released this last week they released their their numbers for the year 2024 just completed the United States economy grew 2.8% right the Chinese economy 5% that's almost double in other words the Gap is growing India's growth according to the international monetary Fund in 2024 will be about 7% That's almost three times s the rate of in other words the gap between them is getting bigger that's because we are relative to them declining it's really kind of straightforward it has to be understood just how powerful it is just because of time one example

the United States decided that it could not dare fight a war with Russia in the Ukraine using nuclear weapons because then we all die and that the the game the Absurd game is over so what could they do Conventional Weapons it became quite clear really early on that that wasn't going to work either the Russians have a lot of them and some of those that the Russians have are better than what the West has pain ful to learn another sign of decline so what did they do they decided to hit Russia with sanctions we wouldn't

buy their oil and gas upon which the Russian economy is quite depended the Europeans were lined up we will not allow your gas and oil to come as if to make it Crystal Clear somebody blew up the north stream pipeline there so it literally could not come because the pipeline was destroyed well what happened miscalculation what kind of miscalculation turns out the Russians could sell their oil and gas somewhere else if the Europeans didn't buy it they would sell it to India and China which absorbed it all no no problem the West hadn't figured it

out the West hadn't planned the West hadn't seen that possibility so with all the sanctions the war got lost anyway Mr Biden said we'll bring Russia to its knees it didn't happen the Russian rubal will collapse it didn't happen the biggest economic Fallout from this war against Russia was the European economy which is in very deep decline as we speak it meant that the calculators in Washington who thought that the sanctions War would solve the problem didn't understand the decline of the American economy Mr Trump cannot reverse any of this the idea that he should

have such power is a kind of megalomania which even he doesn't quite rise to although I may be wrong about that he can't the best he can do would be to be honest with the American people honest in a way that Mr Biden never was that none of the pr predecessors were in this Century to go to the American people and say look we're on the down side of being an Empire and that's not fun but let's let's think about how we can do best as a society as a community managing this and that'll be

better off than if we allow what's going on now to continue and what's going on now is also typical Empire decline when it happens the rich and the powerful are in a position to hold on to what they've accumulated it's the rest of us the middle and the lower classes upon whom the costs of decline are offloaded and that's what's happening in America let me give you the most glaring example we have a minimum wage a federal minimum wage designed to protect the poorest of the poor and the federal minimum wage in this country is

$725 an hour and believe me if that's what you're paid you're a poor person but that's what we have the last time it was raised by the people who run this country the US Congress was in the year 2009 which means in the last 16 years and in every one of those 16 years Prices rose In America which meant that the $725 per hour that those poor Millions got could afford fewer Goods each year we have as a nation Savaged the people at the bottom what kind of country does that s do try I live

in New York City try to live in New York City on $725 an hour there'll be so much money at the end of so much month at the end of the money that you'll be standing around supplementing your income with a cap in your hand and hoping against hope that you don't freeze to death this is an extra what is going on Mr Trump is apparently going to cut Social programs okay that's that's what is really accommodating the decline that he pretends a isn't there and which he is going to reverse by saying as often

as possible America first or by such profound acts as changing the name from the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America I mean it is childish what's going on here A childish inability to face the problem coupled with Fe atrics instead of a serious program I want to remind everyone we just had a presidential election in which neither candidate on either side said a word about we are facing a declining Empire this is a country that is engaged in what psychologists call denial you know what they mean by that it's when a love relationship

that's important to you goes south you know it goes on the rocks it it falls apart as those things sometimes do and then there's that weird moment when one of your friends finally let's you know that that's the and you feel bad not only because the relationship is broken but that you were the last one to kind of figure it out because you denied it there were lots of signs of what he or she said or did or didn't say or didn't do but you missed them all because you wanted to hold on it's understandable

I understand that I'm an American born and lived and worked here all my life and I'm surrounded by fellow Americans but I I'm afraid I'm the one that has to say to them look here's the problem Mr Trump's bloviating Bluster that's not an act that doesn't even admit the problem is there let alone have a solution you're going to grab the Panama Canal you know what that's like being given a diagnosis of cancer and saying right I know what to do I'm going right across the street to the drugstore and get another package of Band-Aids

oh you need help because you're not dealing with what you just were told yeah and I'm glad Professor wolf that you brought up uh Europe here because I wanted to play for you what Ursula vand recently just said and I and to me I believe that Donald Trump uh sees the United States as immune to this and uses this kind of isolationism rhetoric uh while at the same time he proposes the same exact policies this is what he's been doing he's all recently threaten Russia with tariffs taxes sanctions he doesn't like the word sanctions but

he's been advocating for economic War but here is what Ursula VLAN had to say at the world economic Forum meeting in Davos about just what these policies have done to Europe before the start of Putin's War Europe got 45% of its gas supplies and 50% of its coal imports from Russia Russia Russia was also one of our largest oil suppliers this energy appeared cheap but it exposed us to Blackmail so when Putin's tanks rolled into Ukraine Putin cut us off his gas supplies and in return We substantially reduced our dependency on Russian fossil fuels in

record time our gas imports from from Russia went down by roughly 75% and now we import from Russia only 3% of our oil and no call at all anymore but Freedom came at a price households and businesses saw Skyhigh energy costs and bills for many are yet to come down so Professor wolf uh Donald Trump says oh well we are going to do the opposite which is a tariff War rather than a sanctions War could you talk about one uh what is the impact that these tariffs are going to have because he's saying tariffs on

every bricks uh Canada Mexico uh China on and on and on what is what is the impact of these tariff Wars how does it differ then from uh the impact of sanctions that Ursula vandan so uh in so much detail laid out well I I I got to hand it first of all to V liion uh turning history upside down in order to justify your behavior is a common activity uh I don't uh I don't admire it but I don't falter for doing it she has a hard problem the war in Ukraine which she has

been an enthusiastic supporter of on the side of ukra Ukraine from the beginning one of the most enthusiastic is not working well I'm being polite they're losing the war it has cost them a fortune and it has hurt the European economy on a scale that it does not now look they can ever re recover the position they once had relative to the United States on one hand and to China and the bricks allies on the other Europe is in deep trouble she has decided that the way to handle that is to call it all the

price of Freedom oh doesn't that sound good and to in order to make the story stick to make the bad guy Russia which of course is convenient because it's the other side of the Ukraine war and now they can say that the cut off of oil and gas energy to Europe is something that was part of Putin's War chest that's nonsense and it's a shame she should try it and it would be a bigger shame if anyone in her audience believed it Mr Putin had no reason to do that Mr Putin had every reason to

sell oil and gas because that's the income upon which Russia relies not the only source of its income of of course but it's a major export and therefore crucial if you're going to go to war in Ukraine you want more than usual to get that Revenue secure he didn't want to cut off to Europe and he didn't need to cutting off energy to Europe would not and did not stop what Europe did to help Ukraine in the war it inconvenienced Mr Putin that's about what it did he had to move his oil and gas over

to sell it to China and India which is what it did so there is nothing at all to support her fanciful make believe that somehow freedom and its price is what is causing the suffering in Europe and it's above all true for her own native Germany Germany used to boast about its V vunda that's German for economic Miracle what was the miracle that for most of the last 50 years the German economy was the engine inside Europe the growth sector the success Beacon but underlying that the truth was that it wasn't so much German efficiency

it was Germany used the cheapest energy available which was what came from Russia Russia subsidized with its cheap oil gas and coal the economic dominance of Germany and the Germans are now without it they decided to fight a war at the cost of their economy and I am very sure and among many many Germans myself when I say to you they are very regretful that they ever did this all right now let me turn to tariffs if Mr Trump were honest at especially in relationship to Europe he would begin his re his remarks on Europe

by an apology the United States Drew they were willing but the United States drew the European nations into an alliance against Russia and the Europeans have contributed weapons and money in large amounts and they have suffered no more purchases of oil and gas to be supportive of the ukra Ukraine war and to be punishing Russia and boy have they paid the price Germany is now not only not growing faster than the rest of Europe it's not growing at all it's shrinking it has a negative economic growth a recession it's holding down the rest of Europe

it's a disaster you can't run a business in Germany because the cost of energy is so high that you've becom non-competitive with other countries around the world particular China who along with Germany is one of the world's Great exporters China has not had an inflation China has not had a rising price of its energy Germany by losing out on Russian oil and gas had to turn to much more expensive sources of energy including an especially liquefied natural gas from the United States which is making a killing off of the same forces that are crippling Europe

Mr Trump might turn to Europe and say you are our trusted allies you've paid the price for our strategic activities in Ukraine which aren't working but I'm going to help you in this moment as allies are expected to do not at all Mr Trump who has to play the theatrical role of the make America great again and all of that kind of theater he's going to stick it to everybody he's the Europeans haven't done enough they haven't supported enough he's angry at our allies so he threatens them with tariffs what does that mean well first

a word about tariffs since I have discovered that many many Americans at least do not literally understand what it is a tariff is a tax it's the name of a particular tax usually a particular tax has an adjective in front of it like income tax that's a tax on our income or property tax that's a tax on our property or sales tax that's a tax on when we spend money a tariff is on a tax when we import something and it just has its own name rather than being called import tax and by the way

for most of American History it was called an import Duty because Duty and tax are synonyms so a tariff is a tax and we should all be aware that the Republican Party led by Mr Trump a party that for a century defined itself in American politics as the anti-tax party the party that will cut your taxes is now gungho raising your taxes that's what prot tariff means they don't want to tell you that the way I just did because it would make people's eyebrows go up and wonder what that's what I would like you to

do Mr Trump is BU busy putting tariffs on China on Europe on Canada on Mexico everywhere you turn the tax is not the Tariff is not only a tax it's a tax paid by Americans to the American government if something comes in from abroad let's say a Chinese electric car the ch produce them they produce the best cars electric cars in the world at the lowest price they have won the competition to do that the byd corporation in China in particular is extraordinarily successful they will deliver you an electric vehicle for $30,000 but if you're

an American a company buying such a car to do your business or a cons consumer who wants such a car you would have to come up with 30,000 to pay to the Chinese byd company to get the car but in order to pick it up from your dealer you'd also have to give through your dealer the government of the United States the Tariff on electric cars from China that used to be 27% under Biden Biden then raised it to 100% which means in addition to the 30,000 you would have to pay to the Chinese producer

to get that card you'd have to pay the equivalent 100% of that another 30 to Uncle Sam so you'd be out 60 Grand to get the $30,000 car okay that's what it is and the goal of it is to make life very hard for the Chinese to sell any cars in the United States because you can buy an electric car from General Motors or Ford or Tesla it's not as cheap it's not as good but you can do it you can get them for 40 or 50 Grand more than you'd have to pay if you

could buy the better car from China but less than you'd have to pay and so if you go around America right now you don't see any byd cars or trucks if you go to Europe right now as I'm speaking to you they're all over the place now let me tell you if you put a tariff on Europe which is what Trump is hinting at we don't know whether he'll really do it many of the things he says he never does but if he puts a tariff on Europe it will mean that Europe will discover that

America its Major Market in the world will buy fewer things because it's too expensive because for me to buy such a European Thing Once A tarff is attached I'll have to supplement what I pay for the thing by paying Uncle Sam whatever the Tariff is he puts on it so the Europeans will suffer a loss of their exports and that will damage their economy companies who lose that business will lay off workers in Italy or Germany or Britain or France and that will unemployment means they're not paying taxes because they don't earn the income they

are relying on government supports which for unemployed people are much more generous in Europe than they are in the United States as they have been for many decades so this is going to really hurt Europe at a time when they're already suffering the way vlen said and the priz of Freedom as if she actually believes most folks will not see through such nonsense so it'll it it will be a blow but let let me drive home that Mr Trump got into the presidency by being the guy who's nasty who who refers to Mexicans as rapists

who all the things we know about him being the naughty being the one who says what others dare not say whether they're Republicans Or democrats that's his method of being that's brought him to the White House why expect him to change he'd have to understand that getting there is a different project from being there and there's no sign that he has such an idea here's how gross it is because it it it drives the point home you all know everyone watching knows that in the Los Angeles area we've had the worst destructive fires certainly in

the history of Los Angeles but probably in the history of the United States and it's still not over in order to deal with that the 5300 member Los Angeles area fire department didn't have enough people to fight fires that big that that longlasting Etc so one of the things they did was to appeal to firefighters outside of the Los Angeles area not only in the state of California but in the other states nearby and not only in the United States but we appealed to our two neighbors Canada and Mexico and they all responded Canadian and

Mexican professional firefighters left their respective countries to help the United States fight a fire and while they were doing that the president of the United States the new president announced he's going to deport Mexicans into Mexico where there are no jobs for them he's going to put tariffs on Mexican Goods which means they can't sell them in the United States the way they used to so they will be laying off people worsening the unemployment to which the deported immigrants will be added and of course if you Deport immigrants you cut back on the flow of

remittance as they're called the portion of the income that an undocumented Mexican earns here in the United States that he or she sends back for their children or their elderly so the response of the United States to the two countries we border with who helped us with the fires is to smash them down it is you know history will look back on this and will shake its heads in a mixture of disbelief and disgust yeah indeed uh Professor wolf now I wanted your brief comment on this uh Donald Trump often says that tariffs not only

is going to bring back Industries but he also talks about how it's a powerful weapon against other countries and I wanted to play this for you we have one very big power over China and that's tariffs and they don't want them and I'd rather not have to use but it's a tremendous power over China so in the context of these comments Professor wolf could you also talk about you know to me US Decline and the decline of the Empire is is far worse than just any singular recession because it is prolonged and what we have

are solutions like this being promoted which uh tend to have a pretty disastrous consequences not only for the world but also for the people the workers that uh are going to be affected by them uh inside of the United States your thoughts on Trump what Trump just said there and uh this powerful weapon theory that he has been promoting so heavily in the beginning of his administration yeah it's a little embarrassing for me as an economist when someone says something that you would give a poor grade to an undergraduate in a course in economics or

international trade that he didn't no one is teaching him even the most Basics I I don't care that he never chose to learn it in the past I don't admire that but I I understand why he might be busy but to articulate it as policy without anyone in his Circle able to say excuse me Mr President this doesn't work well let me show you why it's so silly let's suppose Mr Trump were right and that the tariffs are a powerful tool to use against China all that means is if you hit Chinese Goods with tariffs

like Biden and Trump did with the electric cars you will make Americans not buy them all right now let's follow the logic an American company is producing something that competes in the world with a company in Africa and another company in Europe and part of the production of all three of these companies requires Trucking they need to truck their inputs into their factories they need to truck their outputs out of them and so they are buying electric trucks okay the one in Africa and the one in Europe buys the best truck at the lowest price

30 grand for a byd elect El vehicle from China and puts that into production the American company competing with them cannot do that if they want to buy the same truck they would have to pay not 30,000 that's what the African and the European pay but 60,000 because they have that 100% tariff on top they can't compete you know what they end up buying as I showed you they'll end up buying a 40 ,000 or a $50,000 GM or Ford or Tesla Truck Yeah but that'll show up in the price of their product because they've

had to pay more for the truck than their competitors pay and that means they're going to lose business they're going to lay off workers when they lose business this is not a smart move does it protect the the workers in the automobile industry yes it does because you end up buying a Tesla a Ford or a GM that will go to the workers and keep them working in those factories but you can't stop the story here that's ridiculous the way Mr Trump does you have to ask well what are the consequences of such a tariff

and I just gave you one can we know in advance what there not might not be more Americans losing their jobs because Americans become uncompetitive than there are people who keep their job because they're protected by the Tariff the answer is I don't know but here's something to keep in mind Mr Trump doesn't know either Nobody Does that will have to be played out in the real world over the next two or three years but the glib way Mr Trump talks is silly here's a second way it's silly the Chinese are not sitting there like

bumps on a log watching all of this they have an embassy here they keep real close track of what Mr Trump says and does if it turns out that the big policy Mr Trump has is tariffs then the Chinese will do exactly what you know they'll do which is try to figure figure out how to evade and avoid that weapon and here's what they have done so far they have made sure to cultivate markets around the world and they've gone for example to Europe and said we've got the best cheapest electric car why don't you

buy them in other words they want the Europeans to make up for whatever Market they lose in the United States and that's exactly what they've done and you can be damn sure that's what they're going to do and you know what that means that the weapon to change China that he thinks he has won't work because the Chinese have reacted to it to defend themselves as anybody would except they have an alliance with enough other countries to make it relatively straight forward where they go and what they have to do to nullify the impact of

American strategy if I were advising Mr Trump that would be my to explain to him why that's not smart what you're saying and would be even less smart if it's what you do American governments since Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger went to Beijing to open China up back in the 1970s that's half a century ago since that time American policy has been driving China so it said to become more like the United States a free market economy change its ways what did China do smile it changed nothing and the reason is not difficult it's because

China has experienced the fastest economic growth over the last 40 Years of any country on this planet way faster growth than the United States could enjoy over the last 40 years why should they change their system it's working wonderfully for them this is again a conversation about fear the of Mr Trump gestures I'm taking Greenland I'm taking the Panama these are gestures made to convey the image of a powerful leader who does first for America it's it's good theater it got him the presidency but in terms of dealing with the actual situation useless yeah in

the United States we have problems with uh historical memory because uh the bid Administration has used tariffs they thought they were a powerful weapon against China but yet Chinese EVS are booming around the world inside of China um Donald Trump believed that tariffs were a powerful weapon and yet we saw that the US economy actually especially prices actually went up could you talk about you know when it comes com to this decline of the American Empire you know maybe in your final uh minutes here Professor wolf if you could explain as an economist studying political

economy in this geopolitical realm what exactly do you foresee as happening to the everyday person as this American Empire continues to decline Trump believes that these tariffs and everything that he is proposing this uh uh you know bellicosity pivoting back to the West that it's somehow going to uh bring back strength but yeah I'm curious about your economic take on what kind of strength he may be talking about well again not to repeat but to simp set the context when Empires go down what is typical not always but typical is that the people at the

top the rich and the powerful use their wealth use their their power to hold on to what they' have accumulated so that the cost of a declining Empire are born by everybody else so let's take a look at how the Tariff game and by the way if you want to know why tariffs are popular it's because it's something the president can do by a stroke of a pen most of the important things in economics are not that easily done and so Mr Trump when he was president discovered he didn't talk about ter all that much

before he didn't know about it but he quickly discovered that he can do and he can look good on TV doing it and so it became the tool of choice you know it's really about the way the system works and he just takes advantage of it it's not something particularly effective about tariffs but if he does it which he looks like he's going to the first thing everybody has to understand is that tariffs are a cost imposed on the American buyer of anything brought into the country against whom the Tariff is made so if we

put a tariff on electric vehicles from China then an American who actually buys an electric vehicle from China will be required to pay Uncle Sam a tax for doing so that's all so if he puts taxes on Chinese Goods or on all Goods or on Canadian Goods then it immediately raises the cost of business to an American who buys it whether that American is a company that buys it for its production or an individual that buys it for its consumption doesn't matter it'll be a rising price all right now let's take the example of an

American company that brings in foreign-made automobiles say for Mexico or French wine or Japanese Electronics or whatever this company now has to pay the Tariff the import duty to Uncle Sam what is the company the people who own the company Who Run It the board of directors if it's a corporation the owner or the family of the business if it's a smaller outfit they have a new call they have to pay money to Uncle Sam that they didn't have to pay before before they could buy their stuff abroad use it here and make that money

back when they sold the output end of story now they have to an additional cost what are they likely to do we all know the employer faced with a higher cost will try among other things to raise the price of what he sells to recoup the extra cost that he now faces because he has to pay the Tariff to Uncle Sam so most economists will tell you one of the consequences of imposing tariffs on other countries is that you worsen the inflation at home so my answer to your question Danny is one of the first

things that Americans better get ready for is if Mr Trump goes through with all this talk of tariffs the inflation we thought we were putting behind us is going to come back how much no one can forell that depends on the interactions among capitalists and employers as they buy and sell to one another at ever higher prices but it's a serious problem Mr Trump's comments on inl on tariffs never address what that means for the inflation if he were honest he would say well there's a problem it may wor the infl so here's what I'm

going to do about the inflation that would be a bit of an honest we could then discuss whether whatever he's going to do about inflation is adequate to deal we can't do any of that because he doesn't do any of that he just waves his hands and acts in his you know b-level Movie that that that is his administration not only that but the countries of the world not just China the countries of the world can and many of them will hit back at the United States because their people will demand it they're going to

be laying off people because they can't sell as much in America since there's a tariff and the people in Canada or Mexico or Europe are going to turn to their politicians and say what are you doing you you just allow them to do that let's do that to them at least as a way to get us to have some conversation about getting rid of all of this but don't just let them stick it to us and we just think sit there with our thumbs in our mouths so guess what American workers are going to lose

their jobs because Europe to which the United States a lot is putting tariffs up against the United States why in retaliation from what Mr Trump is threatening to do and Miss Shin bam in Mexico the leader there or the whoever the the new leader in Canada will soon be they are going to be under enormous pressure from their own people to retaliate with tariffs Mr Trump has a remarkable way of talking about tariffs as as if it's all a one-way Street as it's something the United States chooses or chooses not to do but that's not

the way it works at all never has been you impose a tariff you are literally provoking those against whom that tariff Works to do the same back to you and it will hurt the United States because unlike in the past the United States is now integrated into the world economy it needs a lot of exports it needs those markets it will be hurt if it loses them all of these factors again should underscore don't take so seriously what Mr Trump is bloviating about these days he's continuing the theater that got him elected I'm real on

yourself I'm really I'm not going to be held back by convention I do the Unspeakable I say the unsay yeah I get it that that's how he did it I'm impressed I wouldn't have thought it were possible but that's all it is at this point we don't know what he's actually GNA try to do we do not know whether it can be done and we do not know what retaliation the victims of what he's doing Wills elv figure out but they're not all going to be passive and sit there and say we have to accept

it uh uhuh you might see the billionaires go down there get down on one knee and beging for yeah he wants that they do it but the rest of the world nah not so much doesn't look good it doesn't look good for the king of this or the prime minister of that to play that kind of role and they're not going to do it and the United States is less able to compel that beh Behavior today that it has been for the last half century yes and I I don't think that cjun ping and Vladimir

Putin talking on the phone uh directly after Trump's inauguration was any coincidence I I think exactly as you're saying bricks the rest of the world they are watching this and uh they will move closer together and align themselves away from the United States the more that Donald Trump tries to uh provoke can push them uh further into what he hopes will be economic Abyss but which seems to be Professor Wolf the opposite I really wanted to ask you about the industrialization I know we're running out of time in a minute because oftentimes tariffs are talked

about as a it's going to help reindustrialize the United States in 30 seconds do you have a response to that because I've never seen it Professor wolf I mean I I grew up in the post industrial neoliberal era haven't seen it once but what's your take that that in 30 seconds that's the answer every one of the last 10 count them 10 presidents of the United States has said either at at his inauguration or around that time one of my thing I'm going to bring back manufacturing I am going to every one of them and

not a single one of them achieved it this is this is verbiage this is word salad everybody knows it's a serious problem that the United States has outsourced the bulk of its manufacturing to China India Brazil and the rest of the world many in the bricks and it's not coming back because the wages here remain too high for what they want to pay and the growing Market in the world is no longer the United States it's in China and and the bottom line the bricks 22 countries now represent over 55 % of the world's population

the United States is 4 and a half% of the world's population you ought to keep these numbers in mind before you make cataclysmic policy and strategic mistakes and what an era it has become for world where we see millions of Americans go on seongu the Chinese app and see Chinese people shocked at the way Americans are living this is truly exactly everything you said about the American Empire's decline all of it is happening as we speak and it was great to be with you Professor wolf uh any final uh plugs things you want to say

before I let you go no I think it's important that Americans understand that whatever it is that's going on now it could be other there's no necessity for a trump there's no necessity for trade Wars tariff War none of this none of it but the only thing at this point and for the least the near future that could change it is movement organization by the American people to make the change the rest of the world awaits it we'll applaud it it's up to us as an American I'm speaking now we've got to face the reality

and offer an alternative way forward to what we're being offered by a bankrupt political establishment yes we do not have to go down with the American Empire uh Professor wolf I will be in touch with you of course thanks so much again for joining me today my pleasure and you want to talk again I would look forward to it yes and we will we will take care have a good rest of your day you too all right everybody that was a great conversation a bit more brief today everybody be sure you hit the like button

because that helps keep this stream going in YouTube's algorithm if you haven't done that already I want to just thank digital nomatic for becoming a member as well as to this Super Chat that decline of the USA the United States of ape if becomes the United State of America can save itself yes we'll have to redefine what that United States of America will be indeed I did have an announcement on Sunday I am speaking at an EV EV I will pull it up and I do want you to go to the video description and register

for this event all about China you know I do a lot of diplomatic and activists work too and it's all very important so here you have the information 1 pm Pacific Time 4 P p.m. Eastern 900 P PM London uh we are defending China we are talking about the reality of China I'll be on with KJ no actually Carlos cannot make it it'll be uh someone else uh so many other great speakers here the video the link is in the video description I'll be talking about China's foreign policy but also my experiences and how those

two things go together I was just at the council it yesterday for the celebration of Spring Festival China is ready China is ready to take on whatever is going to happen from here on into the future uh you can believe that this this growth of the multi-polar world is not stopping all that pessimism that was had during the fall of Syria during uh this horrific period of genocide and Gaza all of it U well definitely uh understandable we are going to see I believe the acceleration of the decline of the American Empire continue and the

acceleration of multipolarity continue as well but it will be painful there will be consequences and you know you all know that the American Empire is not going to go down without trying to take all of us down with it but unfortunately I do have to go here today so be sure you hit the like button as you leave uh this stream if you haven't subscribed do sub subscribe do go to the video description to and find all the places to support this work from patreon substack PayPal buy me a coffee many more if you become

a patreon member you can submit questions to guests you can suggest topics you can suggest guests yourself you can help be part of this show I want to thank everyone on patreon subst and whoever contributes otherwise I want to thank all the viewers today for coming out on this Friday afternoon here in the eastern time of the United States I also want to thank all the moderators for all of your hard work as always I will be back live streaming likely mid next week be sure to look out for all the clips that come out

if you did not get to watch The Stream in full also from past programs with all that said everyone salute to all of you I will be back take care and good night