Willem Dafoe & Robert Eggers Talk The “Fear” of Acting, Exploring The Darkness & ‘Nosferatu’

oh that that wouldn't have been a good idea no it wouldn't have been it's not just about realism I was being buried and I was cold and I was dying and I was facing death so no acting [Music] required here we are by ourselves just hanging out no one's feeding us ideas to no this is just coming we enjoy sitting in these chairs at this angle with our cups of coffee yeah cheers but is it coffee do you remember the first place we met literally like I remember I asked to see you after seeing the

witch because I admired it so I thought this guy's this person's a filmmaker and I was uh excited to meet you and I arranged and we arranged a meeting do you remember where we went I remember remember that we went to uh an Italian restaurant like in the East Village or Tribeca I was like at the time like you know barely able to pay my bills so I was aside from the fact that I was incredibly uh nervous to meet one of my heroes I was also excited to like have a full meal and I

feel like I ordered a ton of food hard to believe that seems hard to believe because the Witch uh did very well yeah but it was I I hadn't gotten the residuals I think weirdly the first thing that I saw you in was I was probably in first grade when I watched The Last Temptation Of Christ which every first grader should see by the way wow crazy yeah yeah you're the guy that saw nosar at 9 years old so you know what were your parents doing well my mom uh was uh like had a kids

theater company and my dad was a Shakespeare Professor so yeah we didn't do Last Temptation Christ in in the children's theater but and what did you think of it did you think it was cool or I thought it was super cool did you know Martin scoria movies you watched Mean Streets at five no no no but yeah it's interesting like that was my Jesus not like Max fonv or something like you know so you know once I'm I get to name drop here uh once I met Max vono when was that a guy I admired

because really my first really foreign films that I saw at a much later age than you were Bergman films so max Veno was like yeah I met him once and he was very elegant and he said it was after Last Temptation and he said we are both members of a very exclusive of club which I you know one of those silly active moments that you uh really love you know yeah that's amazing that's amazing I feel like some actors talk about actors who influence them or you can like see them like clear clearly you know

like you can see Dao's Grimace in In There Will Be Blood you know what I mean like but like is is there actors who were like influential to you as a kid but more interestingly to me kind of as you were maturing as an actor like in in in in your well when I was a kid I was like a normal kid and I never thought I'd be an actor I mean I I was in plays and things I grew up in Wisconsin and you don't I didn't know anybody that made their living in any

way in any you know as an artist or a performer something like that so I have lots of older brothers and sisters and I'd hitchhike down to University of Wisconsin Madison and uh they had lots of Cinema clubs at that time so you'd see all these foreign films and and stuff that you would never see at your local theater and that was the first that was the beginning and I remember one of the first films I saw was the magician also called the face which was an early Bergman film yeah I love it yeah I

that would be right up your alley I mean it's very simple yeah story but I love that film there's beautiful things in it yeah and a great performance by Max F so really like he is he he was well I think I like genre films I I grew up on horror films as a little kid yeah I loved Waris carof for example yeah um I loved Frankenstein but you know I was more interest I was interested in other things sure and then later and then once I thought oh maybe I'd be an actor I always

admired actors that didn't feel like actors I mean the classic one I side is Warren Oats you know or or Harry Dean Stanton they were people that you didn't seem like they were trained where other people that were interested in actors were usually interested in more celebrated actors or more um theatrical actors you know Olivier or R and Brando or something like that I mean I admire those people but I didn't I had a poster on my wall but it wasn't of an actor it was of Rael Welsh and I came up to her once

and I said I had a poster of you on the wall you know in the be and you know when I was a kid and her face went dropped and it was like nice talking she oh man yeah because I'm Mr Gaff man I I didn't mean to I I meant to flatter her it's cool that you talk about that because with with back to you know not being into the idea of like Olivia or Brando as like an acting ideal or whatever but your performances you have like Florida project obviously like you're in a

situation where you're working with a lot of non-actors but you give that same kind of like naturalism to to that world but obviously like from stage work and something like Green Goblin or even you know even some of the stuff you do in my movies is coming from like another style you know and and and and is like more more perhaps like indulging in the performance but I don't see it as that it's funny I I don't think I would that's a cruel assessment list I'm good with you cuz I know you know performing and

listen that's okay I can take it from you but I just I just did an interview with a guy and he said yeah I liked your performance a lot no ratu but you know I talked to a friend and he said wow way over the top I was quite surprised and I'm always surprised when someone says something's over the top you know I'm really sold on this idea that one man's meat is another man's poison sometimes a very naturalistic performance to me looks lazy and not engaged where where I like it a little kicked up

you know you always got to dial in you know between the two poles of you know being really loose and being really uh but but but also I think the only thing in no veratu that is deliberately over the top no I mean stylized is the fairy tale framing of things two things about this before we move on is that like first of all like if you're being chased by a vampire like how are you supposed to act like chill like a Mumble core movie like you're going to be crazy and then also like your

character is an eccentric like look at xek like if someone did that without like you'd be like come on like that's over the top you know I know what my intention was and my intention is to play with play the actions and I'm not thinking about size and I'm not thinking about selling anything and I'm not thinking so you know the proportion comes from the energy you know that's all yeah and uh you don't do any more than you need to do to accomplish what the character thinks you need to accomplish exactly yeah talking about

career progression is always weird but is there a role that you felt like came at you know particularly the right time for you in in your journey either as an actor or as a man but I don't know because every time you do something you think how do you do this you know I really have that and and I feel good you know actors talk a lot about oh it's good to have fear and it's good to have in in uncertainty and that's true after a while you shake hands with yeah that uncertainty and that

not knowing and kind of embrace it you know but I don't know it's fun to think about out you know roles that I thought I wasn't really right for but I thought well give it a swing you know since you mentioned last Temptation I always think it's kind of funny that I had heard that people were auditioning for uh Last Temptation for a long time and everybody and his brother was going for this thing but not me and then finally in the end didn't even have a phone in my room and the land lady type

said is a call for you from a guy you know Martin scorsi you know basically and I'm like yes and it wasn't Martin scores it was my agent saying listen uh Martin scer wants to see you and I said for what role you know and he says Jesus you idiot and I thought that's like a bad idea but then I read the script and then I got it because I didn't know the script yet but that's a case of the fact that I didn't think I was right for it was correct because when I got

there it's a reactive role it's a a role of a guy that's not accepting what he's supposed to do and it was the right time for you know me to start a kind of a examination of or study the Bible and things like that and the way the different ways the story was told so that's not really answering your question but uh I thought that might be a fun story to tell it's a great story and how do you feel about early Christian gnosticism see he can't help himself if we're making a movie I'll do

a deep dive but right now I'm not your guy it's funny because I have had more than one journalist uh kind of point out the fact that in all three films you've been cast as like the keeper of Secrets ah you know I was like oh yeah you know cuz in my life I don't have Secrets I just spill spill spill and what does that mean to you yeah yeah yeah that's good I don't know I don't know because I guess really it's more a reflection of how I feel about you go on this is

blushing time but you know you have like this this deep intelligence and and a curiosity about I'm brushing already deep intelligence we could just go with intelligence you're interested in so many things like a lot of actors are less interested in things and and also the kind of humor that you're able to imbue your characters with you have the joke of life you know you have the joke of of life and and I think that that's that's the nicest thing you can say oh well uh let me see if I can do better who could

be a court jester and you know uh an oracle at at the same time you know uh not not a lot of actors could do that convincingly you give me fun things to do that's for sure that's for sure often they ask me oh what why do you like uh Robert Eggers and the witch it it hit me so hard I walked into the witch I didn't know anything about it and it was so easy to enter that world it wasn't pointed to it was it was lived in and I think every time I've worked

with you when you enter the set the most impressive thing is everything has a functions and when you enter that and you submit to that it makes the pretending or the being there so easy that's the most perfect jumping off point to do anything because the world drops away and you have a new world and as an actor that's the place that you want to be that place of being active and uh feeling an itch you know leaning into stuff I like it so much much and and I found that true every time I've worked

with you and also also the thing that people don't know unless they're you know really studied I mean your average audience people in cinema probably know is these incredibly long takes uh that there's no cutting away the first thing what I think a lot of people don't know is when I first we were surprised when Robert patson and I when we got there and we went to rehearsal we assumed we'd rehears the scenes but in fact we rehearsed the shots yeah you and jiren basically said this is the way it's going to be boys and

then we got to fold into it and and in some ways that would drive some actors crazy but I love it so much because that is such a strong structure you've got everything at your available to live in that structure you don't have to find stuff and I love that cuz I grew up in the theat where the technicians were like the actors and the actors were like the technicians and I think that's a wonderful B way to be because it makes everything fluid and also you know it's natural it's so collaborative you depend on

each other I like it as a storytelling mechanism because uh the audience I mean like like you know there are there is scenes with cuts and there shot reverse shots my films like whatever but I think when you have these long unbroken takes like unconsciously like you're just more in in in it you know and especially with the period World building and everything it's just another layer to keep the audience engaged uh without you know anything pulling them out but all as you were saying like experience of making the film because everyone is so focused

and like and it is all about the technicians as well as the actors and the dolly Pusher is as engaged as you as Aaron as lily as the Carpenters who have to move the walls during the take to accommodate the ca movement every creates a tremendous amount of focus and it really as you said collaboration like everyone feels like they're a part of really making the the movie and the scene and the moment and that is a good feeling the thing that I always think about with the the long takes too is I remember reading

I think it was Walter merch you know talked about he always looked for a cut when people blink right blinked you know a cut is always like a blink you know it is which is why I'm always asking everyone not to Blink yes no which is and and I remember in the lighthouse um a lot of people were like we have that one uh long speech that I have that's a you know curse and people were like you didn't blink man wow you didn't blink and it's like yeah I wasn't you know Robert told me

not to Blink so I can get it together and not blink for I had stuff to do I had a kind of complicated uh picture to paint with those words with those beautiful words so no reason I had to Blink you know but that's a good example that was one technical thing that I take on and it makes a stronger commitment to what you're doing I look at you and I always think about the baring in the lighthouse sure I mean that was like I me one of the most incredible experiences for me uh to

do that and and it was painful but I liked it when uh Ryan Johnson did a Q&A at the DGA for um the lighthouse and he said oh when you buried Willam I'm I presume you shot that on on stage and I thought oh that that would have been a good idea no it wouldn't have been it's not just about realism I was being buried and I was cold and I was dying and I was facing death so no acting required you know the beauty of the lighthouse is I always say you can't play a

red you know red skin you can't play that kind of weather on your face we were out there and that really that told us what to do and that's why it's so beautiful when you can shoot on location someone asked me the other day they said uh what do you think you know from working with him three times how's he changed you know I was like same guy you know but maybe what I noticed about I mean the scale is different but I think uh when I saw you on no ratu the really beautiful thing

was nothing can be perfect and you know you realize that so much part part of being uh a director is knowing uh when to hold and when to fold you know and and you're so good at that now there's a practical aspect that's not giving up but stuff the solution shifts you know without uh uh giving in but you're also you know T very very kind thank you uh hard-headed about you know getting what you need Ellen asks your character does evil come from within or Beyond I have the problem with what is evil I

mean you can stop me right there I don't have it all worked out because you know sometimes you do things and you don't totally understand what they mean and they're going to mean different things to different people but in retrospect when I think about my character's relationship with Ellen it's kind of beautiful because he's the one that sees her nobody else sees her and you talked uh when we talking the other day you talked very beautifully about that triangle you know and that's what's so modern about this you know you've got the beautiful husband well

you you describe it Ellen uh like your character she's an outsider but she she really has no one who understands her and she's a modern person s who sort of like is existing in the 19th century and she has yeah this love triangle between her husband who she does love you know and he loves her but he cannot like fully see her and fully understand her and cannot like understand her connection to the dark side or the other side and unfortunately the one person before she meets you who does see that is a demon you

know he's a vampire and he's an abuser he's coming and and so and so that is like the tragedy that like that it's only in this like incredibly toxic relationship but that's more that's a love story but really more about Obsession that's you know where she can find like can find connection to this part of herself so yeah I mean uh does evil come from within or Beyond we all have Darkness inside of ourselves to some degree and your character also talks about you have to face the evil exists in order to fight it and

you tell Ellen to like crucify The Evil Within her this is part of the reason why horror movies like are are important like obviously there's you know entertainment people enjoy terrifier movies not my cup of tea but like you know whatever Rings your bell these stories are deeply important to like to explore what is the darkness not like you it doesn't even have to be about you it's it's like it's in humanity you know what I'm saying the shadow side of all things yeah you know doing some press together I really enjoyed hearing you how

far back this thing with goes 9 years old you're sitting in New Hampshire New Hampshire yeah you're you got a VHS yeah where'd you get that VHS we had to go behind the liquor store yeah we had to uh mail order it you know cuz there there was no internet and no Amazon and all that yes when it finally came I was very excited I it's funny because the VHS had no sound like there was there was literally no score on it and I think that the movie might not have had the same effect on

me had it had like a Cheesy organ or syn score but it was I was watching it like utterly silent and it was made from like a poor 16 millimeter print and so it kind of seemed real and you know Max you can't see Max Shrek's bald cap in his grease paint and there are certain shots where his eyes almost look like cat eyes this is what gave the rumors uh that he was a real vampire hence you know shadow of the vampire but yeah his his performance and the atmosphere of that film and mow

uh and Galen be like taking Dracula and turning into this really simple fairy tale with lots of enigma uh just it it hit me harder than any other Dracula I had seen before then or since and uh and then when I was 17 with my friend Ashley Kelly who's now a theater and Opera director we we did a we we did a High School production of no Fatu on stage missed that one too bad I'll send you some pictures thought it was cool I read that you it was all in black and white yeah set

it was yeah it was black and white like we painted ourselves black and white the set was black and white did you play orlock I did yes and then we we a local theater impressario named Ed Ed Ed langis saw the the show and invited us to do a more professional version of it in his theater and that kind of uh you know that made me sure that this is what I wanted to do with my career so you played orlock do you miss performing cuz you performed after that as well yes you love to

get me on the topic of me as an actor I I sorry in the right better than bump me as an actor you know I I don't I don't miss it too much I do when we do a Q&A I can feel the vibe from the audience sometimes and I'm like I'm a little bit of a ham I suppose but I think oh ham is being an actor huh but I think yeah if there was like an Elizabethan thing or an Edwardian thing where I think my look suited it I might find a tiny thing

for me to do okay I can I be there for that you damn well better be okay good good it took a long time for this movie to get green lit to find the right what was the problem the problem was you weren't ready I wasn't ready yeah thanks William like you know whatever the problems were I'm glad that there were problems because because as you say I wasn't ready and I and I was and I don't know it would have been different it would have been different I don't think it would have been you

know possibly disastrous if it was green lit the first time I tried to do it but anyway but no I mean like we have such an incredible cast I mean really beautiful we were taking pictures the other day and I thought this is a good lineup yeah and like lovely people like everybody was so engaged because but people always say that when no yeah I know I know I know it's cuz I it's like you know obviously we're in the industry and so we know the true story and sometimes when I'm watching BTS I know

like the that really they all hated each other right but but it's not the case here right right what's a film that you've seen or play that inspired you lately I saw a play in Naples that really inspired me and it was a Pinocchio oh I was so moved from the beginning to the end not only by the performance but also the the audiences relationship to it Naples is a great theater town but these people were so connected to this production I I I felt it but the thing that was really interesting is I thought

why am I so moved I mean it was a beautiful script and beautifully staged and everything and I I thought it was interesting that there was such Grace to what they were doing because they were not performers and they could only do what they were doing there was nothing extra there's there's a beauty to it because nothing else is going on but that it's in the same league why sometimes it's so beautiful to work with non-actors because they don't have an identity of an actor so they don't overthink things and they go go to it

they do what they can do and they get out of the way they let the nature you know roll and and I guess I was uh once again I was moved by that that fact that how important it is to disappear into the actions I don't know I the the most beautiful things I see are usually when performers just commit to something and and it's like the grace of an athlete what they're doing is what they're doing and something happens to them and then you can be with them because they aren't pushing you away with

an idea they aren't selling you anything when it's a story about you know the Pinocchio story about what it is to be human it was just gorgeous how about you have you seen can you share can you sh well yours is cooler but I I um I weirdly have never seen the silent film by the law until recently well you got me baby well it's this Russian silent movie that's based on a Jack London novel it was made for me it also feels like I there's no way going be working on that no no no

but it looks like there's no way that I couldn't have made the lighthouse without seeing it there's actually are Sim images that it's like that is in the lighthouse what on Earth but basically what's really exciting for me is that is this American well it's Canadian but but it's like this like American setting made by Russian and there's murder and cin fever and Desperation but it has the like heightened Russian like you know expressionistic kind of well but it's also they they didn't have they don't aren't wearing makeup because like Russians weren't really into that

in the silent era so it has like like a more raw feeling but it has the like explosive like Dusty personality disordered conflict of ego and and it's uh very satisfying by the law the law it's always great talking with you Willam but I look forward to the next time we actually get to work together properly good good me too me too I I can't wait because we got stuff to do we got stuff to do yeah [Music]