A Conversation with His Excellency Dr. S. Jaishankar, India’s External Affairs Minister

good morning everyone my name is Tino quer I'm the president of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace at the carnegi endowment we have been working for over 113 years to bring about an enduring peace a peace that is linked to Prosperity around the world that can work for different countries that is pragmatic and honest that reflects the reality of disagreements between countries as well as opportunities for cooperation when we think about the possibilities for that peace we also believe at carnegi and intellectual honesty and that cander brings us to recognize that the world faces enormous

challenges as well as opportunities arising from riffs in political economy disagreements about how to handle climate change increasing geopolitical friction and fissures challenges to governance around the world as we think about how those next tumultuous intense but potentially promising also 15 to 20 years are going to be handled we realize that the world is changing before us and that world will be navigated in no small measure by India and its 1.4 billion people in the effect they will have all over the world not a single issue that I mentioned technology climate geopolitical Dynamics International political

economy makes really any sense without thinking about India and India's role in that Dynamic and as we think about India's role in the last few years it has increasingly come to play a leadership role role in a variety of challenges and issues around the world just to take one example during its recent G20 presidency India emphasiz the importance of digital public infrastructure a recent uh uh agreement between the United States and India highlights the possibility for international climate finance and reflects the possibility of unlocking over billion dollars in funding from International financial institutions and if

you go down the list whether it's regional security and the quad or issues involving multilateral ISM and the future of the international economic system India and its government are playing an increasingly critical role today to delve more deeply into these Dynamics we are privileged to have the external affairs minister of India his Excellency SJ Shanker we're particularly delighted to have uh Minister J Shankar because on the heels of the UN General Assembly meeting we are in a perfect position to discuss some critical challenges that face the world some opportunities that face India and to understand

how his own Journey which has reflected years as the country's external affairs minister since May of 2019 are now ultimately going to play out around the world Dr D Shankar brings a perspective to his role that is informed not only by long years as a diplomat but also by what I would call a scholarly perspective he's a fellow political scientist we like political scientist Carnegie welcome he uh has uh started his career at the Air Force School in Delhi and then went to St stepan's college and studied chemistry but then saw the light and moved

towards political science uh and attended Neu University earning an Ma and a PhD after long years of service in the external Affairs Ministry he uh was able to serve his country in Prague in Beijing in Tokyo in Moscow here in Washington DC and then culminating his long career in the Foreign Service as uh foreign secretary he was then recruited back into Government after a stint in the private sector by the current government um Minister we're delighted to have you here at Carnegie welcome and I look forward to our conversation thank you Tino and I'm really

very pleased to be here thank you terrific let me start by asking you about um multipolarity we have often uh talked here at Carnegie about how the world has changed relative to 10 20 years ago you've mentioned often that there is a multi bolar moment that has already arrived you also sometimes use the term multi-alignment to describe India's relationship to the world and that comes on the heel of many decades in the past when India referred to non-alignment so I'd love to hear from you what multipolarity means to you and what multi-alignment means and how

it's different from non-alignment um just to complete it I also use the word multi Vector so that you can go in different directions at the same time so there's a multif family out there uh but um look uh if you stop and think about it it's actually Common Sense uh I was uh uh in the UN for the unaa last week and uh if you use the UN as a as a metric uh there were 51 countries who started the UN not all independent like us um there are 193 now now if uh 40 countries

150 countries gained independence since the second world war and then their economies because gaining independence really meant that that kind of uh squeeze which the colonial Powers were putting on them was no longer there to that extent uh once they started their own uh production their own consumption their own uh economic growth then it's only a matter of time before all of this starts to play into a redistribution of where economic activity is in the world so uh if you look at say the top 20 economies in 1950 and look every 20 years how that's

changing you can you can actually see multipolarity beginning to form uh and uh I would still say it's emerging I think this this uh because uh the you know uh if you use GDP as a measure you get one set of prominent countries if you use technology as a measure you get another if you use military capabilities as a measure you so it's not a uh it's not a single determination that one can make but there is no question that uh you know there's ultimately a smell test uh in the 1980s when I first came

here to Washington uh so many more decisions would be made by the United States and Soviet Union and often the two together in the 1990s I'd say late '90s perhaps so many more decisions were made by the United States alone today if you were to look at any big Global issue it's important to have to carry other other countries along and that to me is a is a indication of of uh uh how the world has changed how much more multipolar it's become it's not just become more multipolar it's also become more Regional uh that

and that's a subset of that multipolarity that you would have problems where you would often leave it to the countries of the region because the ability of the major powers to get involved in everything is less the ability of the regional powers to contest the getting involved in everything is more so you can have crisis which essentially end up as something you know where where not everybody gets involved not the the big Powers necessarily get involved so now look at it from the perspective of a country like India if we have more decision making centers

more players of influence more combinations in a way then obviously you want to work with as many of them as possible so you you try to optimize your your positioning and your relationships which is why multi-alignment or multiv vector and again it depends on on the issue I mean there would be a a set of issues where let's say the US is a very natural partner there may be issues where the US may not and some other set of countries maybe so how do you uh and as you get bigger interestingly your agenda increases so

the need for partners also grow so to me that rebalancing accelerated by globalization leading to multipolarity leads a country like India to look at multiv Vector and multi- aligned policies and that's essentially what we're trying to do and how is that different from the non-alignment of the 1970s for example you know it's different for uh two three reasons one uh we were uh obviously our interests were more defensive then uh our capabilities were less our contributions were less I mean to I let me give you a kind of example uh you have these houti attacks

in the Red Sea okay we are affected all of Asia is affected because it's the main shipping line now um maybe 40 years ago we have said something about it today apart from saying something about it you also send your ships and say okay we will uh make sure that we contribute to an international effort to secure the sea Lakes so it's the difference between the earlier Ira was it was more defensive it was less capability driven uh it was also less active in actually pursuing outcomes so here you have you have a dog in

every fight as you get bigger so you can't say I don't like it and I will stay away you may not like it but you still got to work on it in some fashion directly or indirectly and uh uh I think the willingness to you know take risks also increase because you want once you want an outcome you can't you can't be passive so so it's it's a far more Act active capability driven uh uh and and I would say more willing to make choices because one of the uh you know characteristics of the non-aligned

period was also uh uh there was a certain reticence about saying okay on this issue I need to work with you and therefore I'm willing to do that I think that reticence is less I mean where our Stakes are involved we have no you would not have had a in the non-aligned era you would have a quad in a multi-alignment era that's very helpful and leads logically to the next question which is perhaps even in a multiv vector multi-polar World there is still room to recognize that the US plays a very special role in that

world and uh as a practical matter one could point to the presence of the UN the international monetary fund the World Bank here one can point to the role that Washington still plays for example in patrolling International sea Lanes one can point to the role you don't have to convince me I'm not into I'm not into declinism I'm I'm getting set up to to ask you the following question you know the tech industry in California so with what aspects of that kind of us leadership is India comfortable and with what aspects of that is India

perhaps concerned or or might question it um look uh there is no question that the United States still has a very unique position in the world order for reasons of pmics or mind games or posturing people may suggest otherwise but even the people who suggest otherwise uh know the truth at the same time it's also a reality that the kind of dominance that the United States had in the 1950s 60s or in the 1990s 2000 it doesn't have so uh so it's a kind of half empty half full uh situation now for us uh uh

you know which part works for us much of it does you know uh I give you the example of quad I you know if you if you look today on technology issues or Maritime safety security or supply chain issues or uh or uh even the manner in which International institutions should be I mean there will be a lot which would be common with the United States obviously there would be some because look we are a developing country our political history is different our actual interest in some cases our trade interest or climate climate action interest

may be different so there would be areas of differences but if you ask me saying net net where you where do you come out I think we come out very overwhelmingly on the side of a strong relationship which is why actually the story uh if if one looks at Indian foreign policy for the last say two to three decades it's it's really been a story of steady growth of India us relationship because I think successive administrations on both sides uh you know going back I would say maybe to late Clinton Clinton vpai uh I would

sort of pick that as the inflection uh point I think since then it's been steadily on the up so picking up on that the US and India are among the world's leading countries with Democratic forms of government and uh here in the US uh our democracy which includes much debate about many issues sometimes features political leaders in the US making comments about democracy in India and uh that has sometimes provoked a crisp response from the external Ministry perhaps uh pointing out that there are uh members of the Indian diaspora in the US that might have

concerns or complaints about racism or about gun violence U I wonder how you think about that Dynamic and what potential possibilities you might see for constructive dialogue between the US and India on these issues um you know there's uh one the reality and two the handling of of the reality uh what's the reality the reality is the world is very globalized uh and uh uh as a result the politics uh of any country doesn't necessarily stay within the national boundaries of the country now the United States of course makes a special effort to ensure it

doesn't you know that's that's part of how you've conducted your foreign policy over many years now uh as uh in a in a globalized era where there are also globalized you know Global agendas there are players who like to shape not only the politics of their own country or their own region but try and do it globally and you know social media economic forces Financial flows all these give you opportunities to do that how do you shape the narrative so so you have a whole industry here okay uh so so you write up reports about

people you rank people you spotlight uh countries that's that's the game now uh as I said that's a reality so what happens with that reality is it's part of the overall competition a competition among countries and competition among political forces and when it is a competition you expect others to do what they will and it's your right to do what you will and that's playing out in a way but if you look at a state to state government to government level uh we think it's important that democracies are mutually respectful it cannot be that one

democracy has a right to comment on another and that's part about promoting democracy globally but when others do that then it becomes foreign interference you know foreign interference is foreign interference irrespective of who does it and where it is done so uh it's a it's a it's a testy area and my personal view which I have shared with many counterparts look you have every right to comment but I have every right to comment on your commit so don't feel bad when I do understood and of course building on your point the the complexity of how

countries get interconnected reflects in part the diasporas that exist and the fact that the US is an immigrant country so there are many many people of South Asian origin here and they have different perspectives I guess that also highlights a another dimension perhaps of India's role in the world that I wanted you to comment on a little which is how U India and the Indian government sees its relationships with diasporas not only in the US but around the world you know um we have uh roughly uh about uh something like 1819 million Indian Nationals who

live abroad uh these are people with Indian passports and probably about 14 15 million people of Indian origin who uh would have had an Indian passport or would have hailed from India at some point of time because this goes back to the last century and people didn't have passports now uh when a country has this 30 million plus constituency out there it needs to have some kind of thinking you know how do you relate to such a large number of people because these numbers are only going to grow you know uh when when uh I

mean you you referred in your initial remarks to technology I mean uh I feel today uh looking at the current ERA if India has something to bring to the table because you know there are uh there are two ways by which you you make space for yourself in international in the global order one is to rise quantitatively uh which is the GDP growth Etc but one is also to make yourself important or relevant or indispensable to the global order you know people do that by having a res Source or having a technology or taking responsibilities

I think there what India can do is definitely bring the people Factor the talent factor into play and you can do that because of technology that today's era of technology is going to require a trained people trained Talent on a scale for which there are very few suppliers in the world and we are one uh so when I contemplate a global workplace when I look at greater mobility of people and uh for me today Mobility is probably the most frequent conversations I have with my counterparts I mean I met 60 odd ministers in the UN

at least 25 30 of them in some form or the other would have brought up you know mobility of of uh people so we have to have a policy for the global workplace we have to have a policy for what happens when you have these communities outside how do you maintain their their connection with with the mother country uh they will also have their own uh needs and requirements and sometimes their own interests you know there will be cases where uh there would be hate crimes against their places of Faith which has happened here recently

so then how do you stand up for them so there will be issues where we have to stand up for them there will will be issues where you have to do some advocacy uh there will be issues where you it's important to maintain their culture and their identity and their tradition and their Heritage uh and I think it kind of comes as a package and in the last decade that realization has been very sharp so the diaspora uh aspect of our foreign policy has been really far more prominent than it was in the earlier era

let me build on your comments about technology and asked you about the role technology is increasingly playing in India's domestic affairs and internationally I have noticed that um if I draw a through line between the domestic and the international India is interested in extending the scope of connectivity to hundreds of millions of people who previously lacked access to electricity now they've leapt forward and can use QR codes and mobile technology to do payments India is playing an increasingly prominent role in discussions of dig public infrastructure discussions of compute and AI how do you see India's

relationship to the tech issue and the role that it plays particularly in security as well as development um it's a it's a sort of very open-ended question uh so let me limit it to two two comments I think what is happening in India what has happened uh in India over the last decade and continues to happen in terms of deployment of Technologies for governance for Service delivery for public social welfare is actually an extraordinary story what it has enabled us to do is to take up challenges which were either not addressable at all or if

so on a very small scale and then use technology to to Really massively expand it uh so when you are able today uh to you know have a system with a backbone of a digital identity of uh people and then are able to uh figure out their entitlements and then are able to deliver on those entitlements knowing that it's going to the right set of people uh then it's it's a totally different world out there if 10 years ago uh I had sat with you and said that look uh in the in the coming 10

10 years we will be able to deliver 40 million homes to people and know exactly which people were going to give it to you would believe me I wouldn't believe myself if you say that look we have uh today uh equalent not of a food stamp but like a you know food support system which covers 820 million people or you have we you know you know how important you know everybody struggles with Health Access okay it's a big issue in this country as well so to create at a at our level of income remember we

still at $3,000 per capita income country at $3,000 per capita you can optimize your health system using technology and actually today I think our health coverage is about 600 and something million so we can contemplate doing things which we could not have done till we developed a digital public infrastructure so that would be one a completely different example or actually not completely slightly related I would say look at something a big issue in international politics which is uh the semiconductor world you know uh uh how do you create the the supply chains for it how

do you make sure they are reliable they are trusted uh and uh I think uh today the uh the understand you know India is in a sense gearing up for that world and we want to come in also as a technology player including on the hardware side that if Apple phones is today making so much of its production in India if we are you know after years of neglecting this domain uh today we have a serious semiconductor mission of which our crucial partner is the United States so when we see you know the a lot

of what is happening in this country but I mean it's just that the particular segment of that industry with us is different than yours uh but uh I I would say there too uh you know we can make a big difference because at the end of the day technology is not impersonal technology means people technology means designers it means Engineers it means somebody's mind has got embedded in a chip so so it is I think something which we can make a big difference of I note that also in your UN speech you noted that for

all the promise and possibility of technology for India in the world there's also always a darker side and risks and that suggests to me a a balanced approach to the international discussion about technology since you mentioned trade it does uh make me think of China and the complex relationship that India and China have I note that just recently China surpassed every other country in its trade relationship with India and yet tensions with China persist and I would love to hear how you see the Strategic picture with respect to China and what India is trying to

achieve in its relationship with China um you know um when it comes to trade uh correct me if I'm wrong I think uh China accounts for about globally about 31 32% of Global manufacturing I think that would be the right number and a lot of that has happened because over multiple decades uh uh the international business which is primarily Western lit uh has chosen uh to collaborate with China for Mutual benefit so today for any country if you are into any kind of consumption or even into any kind of manufacturing sourcing out of China is

is something which is inevitable because if you are consuming if you're not manufacturing and consuming that's probably where you get a lot of things the cheapest and even if you're manufacturing a lot of your components and your semi-processed materials you know come come out of there so what happens is that uh in a sense trade with China at one level is almost autonomous of the political or the rest of the relationship you can so I don't think it's just a question of numbers you also need to look at what is it which which you are

you are trading because there would be countries who would be more sensitive to their exposure uh there would be countries who wouldn't care so uh I think for us today uh because we were earlier on digital on technology we are very sensitive uh to our data flows you know uh uh it's it's it's often to me a little perplexing that people uh debate so deeply how the data must be uh secured at home but are less uh concerned about what happens when the data leaves your borders so uh in in a much more data sensitive

World in a much more technology sensitive world world I think it's important to to look at what your exposures are how do you mitigate it how do you balance it how do you how do you diminish the risks uh separately from that uh in terms of our own relationship with China I think uh it's a long story but the short version is that we had agreements on how to keep the Border peaceful and tranquil and those agreements were violated by China in 2020 and uh some of the because we have forward deployments of our militaries

uh uh those there are resulting tensions and until those forward deployments are addressed the tensions would continue if the tensions continue it casts a natural Shadow over the rest of the relationship so our relationship hasn't been great for the last four years another element of China's uh role in the world of course is the discussions that play out between the US China uh the European Union EU breaks countries around International economics and this brings me to ask you a little bit about d dollarization as a possibility for the world at times uh India has expressed

interest in an alternative currency that conserve as a reserve mechanism and I wonder how how you see that right now what you see is the role of the dollar and these discussions about International economic policy no I I think you have us uh confused for someone else here uh because we have never actively targeted the dollar that's not part of either our economic policy or our political or a strategic policy some others may have uh what I will tell you is a natural concern we have we often have trade Partners uh who do not have

dollars to trade okay so we now have to look at whether we forego dealings with them or do we find some settlement which which works otherwise so there's no uh there's no uh I can say malicious intent Vis the dollar in doing this this is we're trying to do our business sometimes you make it difficult you know in the use of dollars so we have some trade Partners uh who with whom uh trade in dollars becomes difficult because of your policies so we'll have we have to now we have to obviously look for workarounds but

for us again look as uh we spoke about rebalancing we spoke about multipolarity obviously all of this is also going to reflect on on currencies and economic dealings so it is uh the the era of American dominance is also a era of dollar dominance and era of certain D you know a certain hedging and a certain spread other factors will come into I mean that it will be more competitive even in currencies so but I would't take it quite at least Vis us understand I wanted to give you the chance to address and by the

way when you say you I know you mean you the United States not you car to be clear we have limited control over International Economic Policy so far at least um but staying with that theme uh the Modi government now has had 100 days or so since sort of the next period in election and wonder how you see its emerging economic priorities and where you think uh progress is most likely and where you think the challenges are uh well there's a lot that has happened uh in these 100 days uh partly because we had uh

planned for it uh but if I were to pick uh three issues which would be I think of interest to uh everybody else uh it would be uh uh we have uh uh clear an initiative uh to create 12 major industrial nodes across the country with the idea that there are zones which are prepared to attract domestic and Global manufacturing uh which is a way underlines our determination uh to to become stronger in the era of manufacturing and also to uh to contribute more to Global Supply chains associated with it but in addition also a

whole series of new infrastructure Projects New Ports new Railways New Roads many of them conduct you know uh sort of complimentary to these notes uh which will again make it easier to do business easier for living uh so it's part of overall development but it would certainly enhance our competitiveness in the international economy and the third which I come back to you again the people uh in fact you know in our system uh when you present your budget is you you have something as the equivalent of the State of the Union along with it the

finance minister reads you know she She lays out what are the policies of the government and if you look at this year's budget which was presented after the election uh the focus was very heavily on upgrading uh Human Resources how do you you know create more Skilling institutions how do you make people more employable uh in a way uh so if you have uh a better uh plug andplay manufacturing possibility uh improved enhanced infrastructure larger volumes of Human Resources to deal with I think collectively that would be uh a direction we are going and I

mean there's a lot to do because look in the last 10 years for example in education we would have pretty much in higher education doubled the number of uh uh educational institutions I mean in the last 10 years on average we were actually creating two new colleges a day uh so but it's not enough so because partly the scale of our challenge partly because you know we had not addressed it as effectively as we should have in the past so we want you know to make ourselves much more relevant to Global Supply chains I mean

uh that is for us a very big objective and uh SE in the digital era add to it we want to also enter that as a much more you know as a trusted player who has the ability to collaborate with other countries so we are in the middle of a of a nationwide 5G roll out but an Indian 5G stack for example we think as a as an international uh appeal and potential uh which we need to exploit so I would pick this among the 100 days as a as a set of policies uh which

would be of interest I think uh to the audience we have our own kind of digital public infrastructure here at Carnegie and that we have questions from the audience that will show up in this iPad and I'll ask you about them in a minute but I want to maybe for me ask you uh one last question that in a way goes back to where I started I started by mentioning an enduring peace and Carnegie's own mission but also the connection between peace and the prosperity that we hope to see around the world by helping countries

deliver for their people and I I can't ignore and nobody here can ignore that there is a hot War playing out right now in fact there are several in the world in the Middle East in Ukraine and I want to ask you a bit about Ukraine because India has played an interesting role in trying to prospect for possibilities for communication and and yet my own read is that that there's also been a bit of a a skepticism about how much this gets played out through a grand bargain of multiple countries versus just some honest communication

back and forth notwithstanding the brutality that's playing out there so how do you see India's role in dealing with Russia Ukraine and all the complexities that are particularly given India's very long-term relationship with uh Russia uh you know I'm I'm glad you use the word communication uh because I think uh at the moment that perhaps is the best description uh for what we are currently trying to do uh here's if I can roll it back up uh here's where we are you know are thinking on this issue we are public position is we do not

believe that different you know differences or disputes between countries can be settled by War a second public position is we do not believe that we actually from the battlefield going to get uh a decisive outcome so if you take two then three is if you're not going to get a decisive outcome at some point in some form there has to be a negot NE iation if there is a negotiation whenever we get there then obviously there has to be some preparation or some exploration and some some communication between the parties concerned which is primarily Russia

and Ukraine so with these propositions in mind uh we started uh after in this third uh some explorative disc discussions it started between Prime Minister Modi and president selinski first in Italy in pulia on the sidelines of the G7 uh then uh during prime minister modi's visit to uh to Moscow uh then uh uh after that the trip that we made to Kev uh after which our national security advisor went back to Moscow after which prime minister met sininsky last week in New York and in between you know um at different levels uh I or

our national security advisor or some other people we keep talking to both sides as well we are very you know measured and circumspect about what we are doing we're not hyping it uh our effort is to have communications take anything of interest that we have a conversation take anything of Interest we hear to the other side uh communicate that in good faith if there are reactions or ideas on that side take it back we're not you know it's it's really uh the intent is to be helpful uh and uh the to some extent I mean

if we have to keep other people sort of uh uh informed uh I mean where where it is necessary we we do that as well so uh uh we there are not many countries look we are into a third year of a war there are not many countries today who have still the ability to go to these two capitals talk to the two leaders and then go back to the other one with that I think in any conflict if the intention at some point is to end the conflict uh it is such such Endeavors are

useful I would say they're even loadable so uh you know but uh again please do understand we are not promising anything we're not suggesting we have some Grand bargain or a peace plan we are simply trying to do something helpful reflecting the widespread anxiety in the world that this conflict is actually making everybody's life very difficult that's a perfect segue into a question from the audience about something we were just discussing before we came out here minister and it's about the escalating uh violence in the Middle East so how does India see its approach to

Israel policy Lebanon The Wider conflict possibilities and risks uh well look uh uh if one looks at uh the current situation I think it would be right to start off with October 7th uh we regard October 7th as a terrorist attack uh we uh understand that Israel had a need to respond but we also believe that any response by any country has to take into intern account International humanitarian law that it must be careful about uh any uh you know damage or any uh implications for civilian populations uh and that given what happened what has

happened in Gaza it is important to have some kind of international humanitarian effort out there and uh we are very much uh concerned at the possibility of a broadening of the conflict not just what happened in Lebanon but also uh you know I referred earlier to the huis and the Red Sea and you know to some extent anything that happens between Iran and and Israel so uh again uh it's one thing to be concerned I'm sure you can say that for a lot of countries if as part of that concern you can end up uh

doing something about it you know again uh don't underestimate the importance of communication in difficult times uh if if there are things to be said and passed on and passed back uh I think those are all uh contributions that we can make and we do terrific we have a question about the Pacific Islands and the ACT East uh approach that the Prime Minister has made a Cornerstone of his foreign policy in the Indo Pacific what is your sense of how India regards the Pacific Islands and their role in India's sort of perspective around the world

and how do you see India's approach to these regions well uh you know we uh have a historical connect with one Pacific island which is because during colonial times a lot of Indians were transported their as indentured Labor uh but uh again as part of a uh of a longer term foreign policy Vision I mean we are today trying to operate in the immediate the medium and the longer term uh we have uh created a forum uh of Pacific island countries uh in Pacific island which which has had three three gather every our ideas every

five years at least you try and meet uh and uh we just had one last year in Papa New Guinea uh but uh today with every one of the every one of the Pacific uh Island uh Nations we have some kind of uh development program going there there would be an Indian project there uh somebody would be getting trained there something would be happening in health or education or it out there they would be coming sending the people to India many of them have set up embassies in India uh so uh we uh feel as

part of our Global South solidarity that these smaller countries uh there were by the way countries many of whom uh got their vaccines from us during the covid uh so uh and and they have some very peculiar problems you know uh for some reason there's a big dial kidney uh issue there so there are dialysis uh facilities are are greatly wanted so we are trying to address lot of their socioeconomic uh needs uh and uh build a long-term uh relationship with them uh just as we are with the CARICOM uh at the side and and

uh we feel that these are good they good expressions of global South solidarity uh they are actually doing good uh in the world uh which often people underplay and for us as a longterm you know I I can imagine a time I mean it may not be my time uh but at some point India too would be a global power uh and if you are you you don't turn on the switch one fine day and say oh okay today I'm going to be bigger than I was yesterday I think you need a uh sort of

a long sort of Landing Strip here uh to prepare for that so I think what we are doing I'm convinced will in a in a sort of uh uh at the moment we are working on a 2049 plan uh 2047 plan that's 100 Years of our independent in when I think of where in India would be in 2047 uh I think it's very important that with these what would be considered distant regions we have actually much closer ties building on that and coming closer into India's immediate neighborhood there's a question about the south Asia region

and how the region has experienced a certain degree of shocks recently there concerns over Nepal China ties Maldives China ties tumult selection Sri Lanka has seen us out in Bangladesh say a bit about how India's approach to its immediate region is evolving um you know structurally uh our relationship with our neighbors would be much stronger than it has been ever you know since Independence and the reason is very simple uh if you look today uh at uh how much more regionalized we have become uh uh if you look at the power grids the fuel flows

the uh The Rail lines the highways the fairies the waterways uh there's actually a tremendous change that with every one of these countries if I were to use look at it where was it 5 years before 10 years before 15 years before you can see an enormous uh shift uh in terms of how much more closely uh we deal uh with each other uh and even even in terms of of movement of of people I mean there would be say you mentioned Bangladesh I think uh every year we get about we Sho about million and

a half 1.5 1.6 million visas every year in Bangladesh so you actually have you know much more trade much more uh uh economic activity uh now we have to recognize the world has to recognize that uh they also have their politics you know there will be uh ups and downs there uh as a bigger neighbor sometimes we end up being part of the political debate it's not uh it's not uh unusual I'm sure it something like that must have happened to you to the US in in what happens in this broader region uh so uh

we have to factor it in and my own senses the best way of dealing with that is rather than get over excited by immediate events uh you allow the the stability factors to play out you you respond with a degree of soety and responsibility to anything that happens and uh where China is concerned uh I mean there are two factors here one that China itself for some countries is also a neighbor so so in a sense there would be a few cases where China is a neighbor or a near neighbor uh so politics is competitive

and I tell my colleagues in the foreign Ministry saying look prepare to compete I mean this world's not going to give you anything on a platter so if you want to maintain your position you want to improve your position do the hard work do the Investments build those relationships and that's what we'll do and I'll tell you one thing at the end of the day I'm very confident I mean every few months or every you know I keep getting these stories about how one particular relationship uh is uh uh tanking and I urge you a

few months later to look at that relationship and it doesn't and it won't how does India view Rising concerns and tensions over Taiwan which is an issue that is much debated here in the United States for us uh I think you know the international economy today uh is in is actually very fragile and uh I I as part part of my responsibility travel a lot to parts of the world uh which has had a very hard time in The Last 5 Years where where people have seen uh a visible sort of drop uh in in

the quality of life I mean you mentioned Sri Lanka you know it's it's a country I've lived in that country I've been going there from time to time uh I think part of what explained you know the political shifts there was actually the trauma that they underwent as a result of you know yes there were some causal factors were within their control maybe some of the choices were not smart but some of it was not now uh what the lessons of tensions or conflicts uh I mean what we saw in Ukraine what we seeing in

the Middle East that in a globalized world conflicts and tensions anywhere are going to cause problems everywhere that uh it might it's no longer Regional it can't be oh it's out there and it's just between you know those guys it's going to come at everybody in some form or the other so uh I would say today there is a huge glob you know when we do these Global South Summits we've done three of them so far the global South is extremely concerned about uh uh new factors of stress tension anxiety more more pressures on the

system because they are at the bottom of the chain I'm part of them we feel the pain so I I do think today people want you know they want reassurance they want stability they want they they don't want uh sort of sharper I mean life is Tough Enough I mean nobody wants more anxiety and that leads perhaps to a question about the new Japanese Prim ministers call for something like an Asian NATO how do you think about that possibility well uh you look he comes uh I mean he's Japanese this is a country which has

a treaty treaty relationship with the United States so uh I guess when countries have that history and that strategic culture uh their lexicon and their uh their uh uh thinking would be along that direction we have never been a treaty alive of any country uh we we don't have uh we don't have that kind of uh strategic uh uh sort of architecture in mind I mean so uh it would be his point of view I I guess from where they are coming I I can see you know uh uh a certain evolution that his concerned

but it would not be ours I mean we are we have as I say a different history and a different way of approaching to it when I think about the relationships that India has cultivated I think about the technology relationship with the US and certainly one perhaps uh signature feature of the India us relationship in in these two governments has been a deepening of the technology ties when the discussion turns to artificial intelligence of course there are a whole range of issues from semi conductors to compute how much of it is Sovereign data the human

capital piece that you mentioned but I just note to highlight the enormous change happening in that field right now if we fed into any number of AI systems simply a prompt of what would a conversation between the Indian external affairs minister and president of Carnegie sound likee the system could have generated something like this not as good as what we're doing perhaps but the technology is changing quickly how do you see the cooperation between India and the us on this AI technology and where do you want it to be in the next few years I

look I see very uh strong possibilities because uh as I mentioned uh there is a there's a technology convergence there is a certain and and you know this this is important uh in a digital in a dat data driven world I think the uh issues of privacy of security of what are systems what is law what is allowed what is not allowed what are you comfortable doing what are you not comfortable doing I think all these become very important so uh I see uh a certain convergence here not you know this is not a transactional

convergence it is one too but I think there's also underlying it a a kind of a uh a comfort and a belief convergence uh I I it's you know uh think about it would you feel the same if your personal data uh where does it reide who has access which company is looking at it you would make a difference you know it wouldn't be this you wouldn't be agnostic about it so to some extent I'm extrapolating it in into the world of AI as well there would be partners of comfort there would be uh there

would be Enterprises in a way with whom you would say okay I can work with these guys maybe I'd have a problem with those guys so uh we have uh I mean to me this is an area where our conversations and on the ground our cooperation with the United States has grown a lot and uh uh interestingly it has done with Europe as well you know uh Europe has a mechanism called the trade and Technology Council it has it only with uh the US which was the original one and then he decided to have one

with India uh so uh I think there is a uh there is a a commonality here uh definitely for us the US would be the major partner uh but I can imagine other partners who you know who could be part of uh something like this and Europe would put to my mind very much fit the bill to some extent Japan would as well you know uh so uh you know that same level of uh your your assumptions and your postulates at a very basic level would be similar for you to have those which might be

not so easy with those who don't have the same um same postulates we have only a few minutes left and I want to appreciate that we've covered a great many topics we've talked about technology strategic security issues diplomacy International economics that raises a question from somebody in our audience about how you think about tradeoffs where uh perhaps it's difficult to achieve all goals and in particular how you've thought about situations where there might be some tension between security strategy on the one hand and international economics on the other uh look uh uh whoever ask that

question is a very grounded person because that's my life you know how do you make tradeoffs because there is no relationship where it's all one way I mean nothing is completely bad and nothing is always great so life is and and it's uh uh you you're constantly in a sense searching for the good for the optimal you would like the perfect but it's very rare to to actually have that situation so I I would uh uh you know in in a way um if you were to uh say okay what's the trade off between something

economic and something security uh I can understand why somebody would ask that question but I put it to you today that actually many more things economic have become more security uh that if you look back at the covid era uh did did not the ability to meet your health needs become a security issue look at the Ukraine conflict for many countries the ability to access food is a security because there you know you you've had rights and even you know garments regimes collapsing because of food problems so what is the definition you know uh it's

uh partly globalization and the leveraging you know uh if if people leverage market shares economics is no longer just economics if technology gives you an interpenetrative ability and strong dependency it's no longer just technology I would ask argue that in the last 5 years especially maybe a little bit more almost everything I mean uh the world has seen the weaponization of everything or the possible weaponization of everything and if something can be weaponized then it's no longer what the original domain was anything weaponized means it's now part of a security calculus so I would argue

today that we live in a much more uh security sensitive world uh when we make uh when we make choices when we do our calculations uh what would have uh been much more uh limited or U unidimensional earlier uh today I would factor in you know what does that exposure mean what does this dependency mean do I actually allow uh another country or another company to come and have you know it can be as a supplier as a consumer as a service provider every one of these can be and it's not hypothetical I mean just

look at the history of the world in the last 10 years it's a history where you know even bananas have been weaponized you mentioned that the person who asked the question was well- grounded we like very well- grounded people here in Carnegie um last question you've been external affairs minister for five years give or take um what do you find most um interesting and fulfilling in the position what do you find most challenging uh that depends on whether you want me to stay on the job or not so you can decide uh look for me

uh in my own country uh it's a unusual situation because you know we've only twice had an experience of someone from the diplomatic World actually becoming uh a minister uh it's got a big Advantage which is like you know the trade well you've done it for a very long time uh you bring with you uh all the networking and the experience and the you know granularity of of the business uh the challenge is to to kind of now say okay okay I'm not just in charge of a Embassy or even in you know uh sort

of running uh institution I'm actually uh there's a sort of a bigger bigger wish and I think uh certainly for us uh on in the political world you are much more integrated you know we have a I mean I guess everybody does you have a sort of a cabinet uh system so you tend to hear much more uh other other domains and see how you can uh you know how you can uh Advance them how you can Factor them into your calculation so actually your world world uh WID uh uh uh it's it's quite honestly

I mean uh in in many ways it's when you come into this with with all that years of uh uh experience behind you it's it's something you like doing so so I I mean I get up every day I don't I don't lack energy in what I do for the rest of the day but uh there are there are the the challenges which go with it you know I mean uh in many ways you have to take calls you are either the last person or the second last person taking the call uh I have a

prime minister who on some on some issues I would go to and it's a different responsibility I mean because it could be a evacuation operation it could be a border situation it could be uh a judgment call and and the rest of the system in a sense relies on your judgment and that means there's then a responsibility which comes that okay you know you you are uh you it's it's your uh sort of thinking which which uh matters so uh it's been U I would say uh a very interesting very challenging uh uh five years

uh uh I've had only one predecessor my immediate predecessor who actually in completed 5 years in office uh the turnover period in our part of the world is a little higher uh so let's see how it goes okay thank you very much and we look forward to having you back at Carnegie sometime thank you