By Permitting Survey of Mosques Justice Chandrachud Did a Great Disservice to Constitution, Country

I think that Chandra chud has done a great disservice to the Constitution and to this country I want to get you to repeat that Justice Chandra Chu has done a great disservice to the Constitution and to the people of this country you seriously mean that I not only mean that but I feel that if Supreme Court and it has been held by Supreme Court time and again is bound by its own judgments day in and day out this Supreme Court will hul up citizens bureaucrats and politicians for contempt of its orders what has Chandra done

is he not guilty of he and his colleagues are not guilty of defying Supreme Court's judgment he and his colleagues are they not responsible for breaking down of the rule of law I have no doubt that chief justice Jud was playing in the hands of somebody when he made this he is far too intelligent not to have realized the letter and spirit of the law he's far too intelligent to have forgotten what he himself H in ramji case a moment ago you said off Jus chra Tru that this is not just the most damaging thing

he said and done but it was deliberate and then you added I have no doubt he's playing in the hands of somebody in whose hands is he playing who's in a sense manipulating him whoever is interested in you know this exercise you know who are the forces who are wanting this you know exercise to be carried on you mean Modi and the BJP destabilize destabilize the country and you know suppress and oppress the minority Community you know this is not isolated let's understand one thing can can I interrupt can I interrupt this is a very

serious charge you're making you're suggesting that as a Justice and later as a chief justice he was being influenced by political considerations and those in particular of the ruling BJP no doubt about it there is no doubt about it and he proved it by you know his Ari with the Prime Minister he proved it again by saying that I aodha judgment I got Divine uh you know wisdom from Almighty I can tell you one thing I I I can tell you one thing I have sleepless nights thinking about it my wife tells me every day

why are getting so involed but I involved because I'm worried about my country I'm worried about by lovely you don't know how much it is impacting me just imagine how much it must be affecting those belonging to the minority Community it's really sad what is happening and I don't know why nobody in this country wants to stand up and fight this kind of nonsense [Music] [Music] hello and welcome to a special interview for the wire suddenly it seems as if we're regularly discovering Moses which people claim have been built on older Hindu temples and courts

are being petitioned to permit surveys to investigate them it began with the gvapi mosque in Varanasi the Shahi Ida in matura and the Kamal MOA in tar but it's not happened in the case of the Shahi Jama Masjid in samul and the ajir Sharif Dara in ajmir this is clearly playing with fire because it could lead to communal tension indeed it's already led to violence my guest today blames it squirely on a ruling by Justice Chandra Tru in May 2022 joining me to explain why he holds that view is one of India's foremost and most

highly regarded lawyers and a former president of the Supreme Court bar Association dant D Duan dve increasingly it seems the courts are being petitioned to permit surveys to see if mosques which are often several centuries old are built on older Hindu temples as I said in the introduction most recently it's happened in samul and ajmir but earlier it happened in Varanasi matura and darar in madha Pradesh this is tant amount to playing with fire but you believe a May 20 22 ruling by Justice Chandra truth is responsible for landing Us in this messy situation can

you start by explaining why you blame him why you think Justice Chandra trud is responsible look this is an extraordinarily serious situation which is developing in the country and uh I mean something which was clearly prohibited by the religious worship Act of 1991 now the Constitution bench of of the Supreme Court to which Justice Chandra was party in aodha Ram janabi case expressly said that there are two basic Norms of this act one that it seeks to protect every religious uh place of worship as it existed on 15th of August 1947 and that they are

therefore Untouchable unless they are Exempted expressly under the statute secondly they said something more important they interpreted section 4 subsection two of that act to say that no fresh suit appeal or proceeding can lie to change the character of any place of worship as it existed on 15th of August 1947 as we all know that act had expressly Exempted by section five the ram janabi babri Masjid uh you know uh so that because the suits and litigations were pending prior to 1947 now that law the Supreme Court said and this is I I must quote

Supreme Court said that this act protects and secures the fundamental values of the Constitution it said the law addresses to the state as much as to every citizen of the nation it said this law is non derogable obligation of the state to for secularism it also said that act is an affirmation of solemn Duty which was cast upon the state to preserve and protect equality of all faiths as an essential constitutional value because it is the basic feature of the Constitution and it Al also said that the historical wrongs cannot be corrected by people taking

law into their own hands and that to suppress or oppress people and their future now these are the words of the Supreme Court to which Chandra chud was a party he is bound by these words the ACT therefore the interpretation which was given to the ACT to my mind clearly you know commanded that everybody must now stay their hands off after the ram janabi Judgment of the Supreme Court it doesn't stop here interestingly Justice Sharma of the alabad High Court who had delivered the ram janabi judgment he had made an observation in his judgment that

this act does not prohibit fresh proceedings or fresh suits that may lie in respect of other places of worship this particular finding was squashed by the Constitution Ben saying that this is completely wrong it is erroneous and it is in teeth of section 4 subsection two which says no suit or proceeding can lie in future for any new place of worship now if this is the law of the land by virtue of article 141 this is the law of the land and by virtue of that article everybody everybody the executive uh the legislature and even

the Judiciary including the Supreme Court is bound by that law so I find it extraordinarily shocking that when it came to ganap imos when you know an application was moved for dismissal of the suit which was filed by on behalf of the minority Community which was rejected by the trial court and High Court Justice Chandra doesn't go into it because application was that this suit is not maintainable per se and Justice Chandra allowed the proceedings to go on allowed the ASI proceedings to go on it was really I would say the I mean most uh

shocking shocking Defiance of his own judgment by Justice Chandra chud now that has opened a p box had he said that day that nothing doing no more such proceedings can lie which is the law no more proceedings will be entertained and we hereby command that no court in India shall entertain such proceedings then Chandra would have done a great service to this nation but clearly he was not willing to do that because he was playing in the hands of the politicians for you know oblique reasons and that's what really shocks me that a man who

otherwise claims to be a larger than life image across the globe goes on giving lecture on secularism on rule of law he is now party to complete breakdown of rule of law in this country let me for the sake of the audience clarify precisely what it is that just Chandra trud said in May 2022 which you believe has opened a Pandora's Box I believe his words were the ascertainment of the religious character of the place of worship is not expressly B he claimed that what is B is changing the character of a place of worship

after 15th August 1947 that is bad but ascertaining what the character is he claimed was not bad very quickly am I right in saying that it was this so-called interpretation that he gave the act that has opened the Pandora's box it is unfortunate that he gave that interpretation being as I mean quite intelligent and claiming himself to be an intellectual he should be the last person to interpret like that because if you cannot change the place a character of a place what's the point of aing what the character is therefore there was a complete prohibition

complete status quo in respect of all places of religious worship now you know I mean these are semantics I'm sure Justice Chandra knew what is the you know purpose of the ACT ultimately the idea was to bring peace and prosperity and communal Harmony in this country and therefore he could not have made this kind of a I would say stretched interpretation and which was clearly not born out on the face of it by the language of the act as interpreted by Justice Chandra and His Four colleagues who have all now benefited from the government who

decided the aodha Judgment let me put it like this to you even if the interpretation that Justice Chandra truth came up with and I'll repeat that although you cannot change the character of a religious place after 15th August 1947 you can assain and determine what that character is even if that doesn't strictly breach the letter of the places of worship act doesn't it undermine the spirit of that act very seriously and comprehensively undermine the spirit of the ACT no I I would go to the extent of saying that it really is in Te of the

letter of the act it also is violative of the spirit of the act because the ACT is ened to prohibit conversion of any place of worship as it existed on 15th August 1947 now if there is a Prohibition where is the question of ascertaining the character I mean are you doing an academic exercise at Supreme Court in a most sensitive communally sensitive issue now is just I mean is judiciary not responsible for the deaths of these four people in zambal what are we we are discussing here people are losing their lives the two communities are

being divided permanently and you know these wounds are virtually impossible to heal especially when the btia J part is in power in these states where this is happening be it Rajasthan or utar Pradesh so I think that Chandra chud has done a great disservice to the Constitution and to this country I want to get you to repeat that Justice Chandra Chu has done a great disservice to the Constitution and to the people of this country you seriously mean that I not only mean that but I feel that if Supreme Court and it has been held

by Supreme Court time and again is bound by its own judgments day in and day out this Supreme Court will haul up citizens bureaucrats and politicians for contempt of its orders what has tendra done is he not guilty of he and his colleagues are not guilty of defying Supreme Court's judgment he and his colleagues are they not responsible for breaking down of the rule of law because they have noted in that judgment that the demolition of the mosque in 1992 was the most a garious act on the part of you know the in connivance with

the state especially after giving undertaking to the Supreme Court by the btia Jan party chief minister Mr Kalan Singh and he said this was the absolute break down of rule of law judges say that expressly now he was a party to it how can therefore he allow this you know thing to go on so he's guilty of contempt of court himself look nobody has ever tested this proposition whether judges can be guilty of you know their own judgment of in contempt but certainly is guilty of defying and defiling his own judgment some people who agree

with Justice Chandra juw into interpretation say that it is a clever and ingenious interpretation of the law but don't you think the opposite is in fact more true the Justice Chandra chud should have known that this is a volatile and deeply sensitive topic in India and as a result the lives of ordinary people and the communal Harmony of the nation would be at stake and that second more important concern he just seems to have ignored no justice chandra's uh interpretation is not only uh I mean he it's intellectually dishonest but what is important is that

Justice Chandra misses the point that the ACT prohibits a citizen from initiating any action and by virtue of article 51a every citizen has certain fundamental duties including to uphold the Constitutional values the ACT is a Prohibition against the state saying that you will me ensure that this uh you know this act is implemented in letter and spirit let me ask you one thing Karan why is it that the judges don't have the same Justice Chandra chud didn't have the courage to set down the matters challenging the Constitutional validity of this act for hearing because he

knows that it will be upheld and it was upheld to my mind in aodha judgment indirectly the direct challenge didn't come but so first and foremost they keep these challenges away and then they start you know going around it in this convulated interpretation secondly did Justice Chandra should have asked the government especially the btia J party at the center that why don't you bring the law to remove and repeal this act of 1991 you know these are things that judges should be mindful after all that was an act of Parliament and the act of parliament

you know you take a constitutional oath that I will uphold the Constitution and the laws once once you have taken that oath you must make sure that that oath is you know followed and respected in every possible way in upholding the Constitution and the laws and Justice chud and his colleagues look he alone is not responsible his colleagues who are still sitting in the honorable Supreme Court they are equally responsible for not pointing out to the Chief Justice that we we differ from you and we don't want to be party to this Mr let me

you mrf amadi a respected senior Advocate who is valiantly defending the minority community in all these you know cases he has been trying hard to tell the Supreme Court that nobody can now you know try and change the character of these places of worship please therefore dis you know make give a declaration to me do not interfere in gapi do not inter luckily in matura when matter came before The Supreme Court I must say hats off to Justice Kaa who St the proceedings as he did yesterday in respect of sble so you know I mean

there are Judges it shows that there is a there is a cleavage in the Supreme Court and therefore Justice JRA and his colleagues who really were party to the gvapi orders stand exposed stand exposed with great respect to these judg you see I I I respect them I admire them but they don't have the courage to stand up and tell chief justice that chief justice we don't agree with this and we distance ourselves from this they just go with him in the last couple of weeks we've discussed Justice Chandra truth many times three possibly four

times in the last two months for sure are you beginning to worry that this comment of his of May 2022 that we're discussing could be the most damaging thing he said and done look not only damaging but deliberate I have no doubt that chief justice chandrachud was playing in the hands of somebody when he made this he is far too intelligent not to have realized the letter and spirit of the law he's far too intelligent to have forgotten what he himself H in Ram janami case and you know and he has given manys on secularism

in other judgments so I mean here is a man who a judge who knows everything and yet he makes these observations I mean it it really forget him you know I am not now Chandra is a and I'm sure will be forgotten soon issue is not that issue is that Judiciary across the country is responsible for defying the law made by the parliament as interpreted by the Supreme Court and that is a sad commentary judges the lowest level are bound I'll tell you there is a very interesting Judgment of Supreme Court by Justice chapari when

assistant collector of Customs versus Dunlap India limited where Justice chinapa RI almost you know very in a very sad uh you know words says that everybody in this country is bound by the law declared by the Supreme Court everybody including the executive and the Judiciary and he says I mean we have been reminding them again and again that please follow the our judgments and we find it with great difficulty that they don't follow so now that was in 1985 yet we are finding that judges have little respect for the law or for the Judgment of

the Supreme Court at levels be it in sambal be it in Varanasi be it in Madura be it inir a moment ago you said off just Chandra Tru that this is not just the most damaging thing he said and done but it was deliberate and then you added I have no doubt he's playing in the hands of somebody in whose hands is he playing who's in a sense manipulating him listen we all know what is the you know I must say one thing and that's there I respect Mr bhagwat of the RSS although I do

not you know agree to their ideology but he himself said that you can't go on doing this because you'll find under you know in every mosque maybe a sheling but we have to put an end to it now here is a man who is a grassroot man who knows the consequences of this exercise which is being carried on with the blessings of Judiciary and willingly implemented by the executive but in who the moment but but in whose hands is Justice Chandra truth playing those were your words he's playing in the hands of somebody who or

what are you alluding to whoever whoever is interested in you know this exercise you know who are the forces who are wanting this you know exercise to be carried on you mean Modi and the BJP destabilize destabilize the country and you know supress and oppress the minority Community you know this is not isolated let's understand one thing can I interrupt can I interrupt this is a very serious charge you're making you're suggesting that as a Justice and later as a chief justice he was being influenced by political considerations and those in particular of the ruling

BJP no doubt about it there is no doubt about it and he proved it by you know his Ari with the Prime Minister he proved it again by saying that I aodha judgment I got Divine you know wisdom from Almighty I mean here is a chief justice how can it do all these things but be that as it may current what is really today happening in the countries and this is where I think there is a serious introspection required by the bhia Jan party the Prime Minister Mr Modi love Jihad land Jihad all these you

know mob lynching all these you know instruments of uh you know operation are being carried on with clear impunity and support from the states especially in BJP States I'll give you an example in Baroda recently a a a a young man whose father is a BJP kakara was murdered apparently allegedly by a Muslim boy now Muslim boy should be you know tried prosecuted and he should be given a sentence as law what they do is they go into the old part of Baroda Mand and other areas and you know try and remove every Muslim Hawker

who have been working you know Hawking there for maybe 100 years and you know all the shops which are of the Muslims with slightest you know butting out they demolish them and they you know they create an atmosphere of fear the police the municipal authorities now this kind of an atmosphere today you are trying to create a fear and that fear you know remember one thing Karen these are not my words edar said during constituent assembly debate that minorities are an explosive force and if they explode it will destroy the very fabric of this nation

absolutely we don't want that situation look what are you worried therefore that we could soon be approaching a time when hundreds maybe even thousands of mos will be surveyed in the belief that they were built on Hindu temples purely on the grounds of tradition or anecdotal history that that claim is the case in other words are you worried that this is going to proliferate and this Pandora's box or a can of worms that's been open would lead to multiple cases hundreds thousands I am not only worried but I I call upon these people who are

now wanting to obliterate the Islamic history of this country why don't you begin with redf why don't you go to Taj why don't you go to kutub Min start digging under them let us demolish all these thousands of monuments which are you know which are you know great heritage of this country so that now we obliterate any sign of you know Islamic Invaders from this country where are we going to end we don't need it look this is a this is an amazing Nation Hinduism is an amazing you know religion I am a proud Hindu

I'm a Brahman I worship every day my lords but I also pay my obedience to uh you know other you know gods and other religious leaders you cannot allow this thing to go on I have no doubt that if this exercise is not stem now it is going to really set this country on fire and people are you know unfortunately unfortunately as I said that the btia Jan party does not have courage to repeal the law because they know that in Parliament they will not get support from their own allies now therefore what they want

to do is what they can't do directly they are perpetuating it indirectly in which case let me ask you this as you said Justice Chandra truth has opened a Pandora's Box and he's laid the grounds for mischief and that Mischief is already happening in front of our eyes what do we need to do to re in the situation and ensure that matters don't completely slip out of control well first and foremost I think the nation would be happy to note that under the leadership of Chief Justice Kanna a new Supreme Court is being born and

that Supreme Court is now distancing itself away from the period that ensued from 2014 to 2024 here is a chief justice who is balanced who is sober who you know respects constitution in letter and spirit and the laws and here is a supreme court where large number of his colleagues are willing to do that thing they all he only has 7 months in the chair is that long enough to reverse we have many we have many good judges now in the Supreme Court and many good Chief justices coming Hereafter I have no doubt that those

Chief justices will really ensure that the Majesty of laws will prevail so you know Karan I'm reminded today what is happening is that and these are the words of Sardar Patel you know Sardar Patel was heading the minority committee during the constituent Constitution framing it was he who gave the provisions for protection of the minority and he said that look if the Hindus stop discriminating against the minorities the minorities will have no reason to complain and minorities will vanish there'll be one country complete equality and he also said that put yourself in the shoes of

the minority community and feel the pain that they feel at the way we behave the majority then you will realize that it is wrong so here are you know great people Sardar Patel ambedkar who are otherwise icons of prime minister Mr Modi but he does not want to follow them in these regards he just wants to create statute and Garland them on their birthdays and their anniversaries hi I'm Karan taper over the last few years I hope you've been watching my program the interview on The Wire during that period I've interviewed doctors politicians businessman scientist

authors and even the occasional Noble Laurette for me it's been exciting I hope it's been enjoyable for you but these as you know are tough times and if this program is going to remain bold independent and sometimes even defiant then I think we need your support at the end of the day it's a truism but editorial Independence is best defended by the viewers so if you would like this program to remain the way it is forthright outspoken and interesting then would you consider supporting us all you have to do is to click on the description

at the bottom but more than anything else I hope you will continue to watch the interview your viewership means an awful lot to me let me quote from manasan the managing editor of live law he says and I'm quoting him the Supreme Court ought to give a conclusive pronouncement that the places of worship act cannot be circumvented under the guise of determining religious character do you agree with him that we need a con pronounce the completely completely agree and I must say although yesterday's Justice kanna's intervention Justice Kanna and Justice anjay Kumar was welcome but

I think they fell short they should have you know withdrawn that suit to the Supreme Court and you know declared that suit was not maintainable they should have they should have given a general direction I'll tell you I think it was uh Reliance public issue or Morgan Stanley public issue many years ago and large number of you know cases were suits were being filed against the public issue which was coming up I think it was Reliance and the Supreme Court passed the general memas restraining every Court in the country from filing such cases now that

is what is required you know judges need need to be Innovative this they have to think out of box they have but just a moment now you're criticizing Justice Kanna for not going far enough a moment ago a moment saying he could be the Savior no then you don't hear me properly I said I welcome what he did but he fell short that's not criticizing sorry that's your interpretation but I I do feel I would have been much happier had the Supreme Court you know gone Whole Hog yesterday and stopped all these nonsense because you

know look as as a very a poet very beautifully says in these lines you know today unfortunately we are creating a divide you come to Gujarat Kar it brings tears in my eyes that the two communities are polarized Beyond repair the Muslims cannot live side by side with Hindus in any area nor can you know Hindus live side by side with Muslims in any area virtually so you are creating you know two areas and in Amad the area which is predominantly dominated by the minority Community juhapura large number of my friends in Amad call it

Pakistan now is this what our freedom fighters fought for Freedom they all laid their lives thousands of Indians laid their lives to gain us the freedom partition has happened those Muslims who wanted to go to Pakistan have gone but those who decided to stay back have placed their future in the hands of us the majority it is for us now to ensure that we make them feel welcome after 77 years are we going to now talk about what happened 6 700 years ago if there was Babar and orze there was also Akbar who treated everybody

I mean take for example Gohan parwat I remember this story which Supreme Court has quoted where you know the shr bhagwan's D was there he Exempted Goan he first gave their you know right to that land to I forget the name Maha prabu G and then he Exempted from tax absolutely so you you can't you know you can't just it is really not good for us thousands of let me tell you one thing In fairness to the minority community and this is what the nation must hear they have still kept their faith in us and

the Constitution thousands of suicide bombings have taken place in Islamic world including Pakistan there has been only one suicide bombing in India pulama now just imagine we don't want this kind of a situation to go beyond we have lot of work to do we have to you know take care of 140 people we need to create job we need to bring uplift the poor from poverty we need education we need good health we need peace we need harmony we need Prosperity all this venish will Cur I can tell you one thing I I I can

tell you one I have sleepless nights thinking about it my wife tells me every day why are you getting so inv worlded but I inv world because I'm worried about my country I'm worried about my lovely you don't know how much it is impacting me just imagine how much it must be affecting those belonging to the minority Community it's really sad what is happening and I don't know why nobody in this country wants to stand up and fight this kind of nonsense dant I thank you for this very very powerful interview the emotion in your

voice the tears in your eyes speak vol sorry so thank you no don't apologize it was your heart that was speaking your heart will reach out to the audience your heart will make a point that goes well beyond your passion and your anger but I want to repeat for the audience some of the important things you said about Justice chru you said he was guilty of defying and breaching his own judgment in 2019 you accused him of intellectual dishonesty you said he has played in the hands of somebody making it clear that somebody is the

BJP in the government and his ruling of May 2022 you said could set this country on fire for your I haven't said that BJP and government he played in hands I have said he played in hands of somebody I don't know who thank you very much for your words for your passion for your emotion take care stay safe let us let us pray that ultimately wisdom prevails on those in power those in judiciary and the you know citizens and we can all put an end to this uh we don't want to become another Pakistan or

Bangladesh we want this India to be bat a nation which has really nurtured long Heritage culture of religious tolerance produce some of the finest religions like jism Buddhism Sikhism and we welcomed Zoran ISM so we should not be worried about you know these kind of issues absolutely thank you very much indeed take care stay safe hi I'm Karen hoer over the last few years I hope you've been watching my program the interview on The Wire during that period I've interviewed doctors politicians businessman scientist authors and even the occasional Noble laurate for me it's been exciting

I hope hope has been enjoyable for you but these as you know are tough times and if this program is going to remain bold independent and sometimes even defiant then I think we need your support at the end of the day it's a truism but editorial Independence is best defended by the viewers so if you would like this program to remain the way it is forthright outspoken and interesting then would you consider supporting us all you have to do is to click on the description at the bottom more than anything else I hope you will

continue to watch the interview your viewership means an awful lot to me [Music]