We've all found ourselves in conversation and felt attacked, like we started off talking about one thing Out there. When I cut the clips like this, it makes it very easy to see these hidden presuppositions; however, in real time, this can be difficult. One simple thing that you can do to make it easier on yourself is to purposely assume a relaxed posture, as Jordan does throughout this entire conversation.
Now, this posture actually helps you to think less frantically because your body is signaling to your brain that everything is okay; you're in control. You'll also want to give yourself some time to pause after each question, which Jordan definitely does. In addition, you're going to want to study up on frames and frame games because there's clearly a whole level of conversation that is going on behind the words.
Now, I've talked about this in other videos, specifically the one on Tyrion Lannister from Game of Thrones, and I'll leave a link to that in the description if you want to check it out. Moving along, though, the last clip contains a small example of the third conversational bully tactic in this video, which I'm naming the "smash technique. " Take a look.
[Cathy talks over Jordan] So you want to say to your followers now, "Quit the abuse. Quit the anger. " It's subtle here, but Cathy smashes together two very different terms—abuse and anger.
Now, by ending on anger, it would be easier for Jordan to just forget it and answer the question. But that would tacitly accept that his followers were abusing people. That's why the smash technique is so frustrating; people are embedding hidden statements that you actually disagree with and then moving through them before you have the time to voice that disagreement.
You may also have seen people barrage you with questions just to overwhelm you into having to accept their points, like this: . . .
otherwise, why would there only be seven women running FTSE 100 companies in the UK? Why would there still be a pay gap. .
. [Jordan talks over Cathy] Why are women at the BBC saying that they're getting paid illegally less than men? It can be easy to get overwhelmed and to lose focus as you try to answer all of these questions, but with the smash technique in general, the best policy is to slow down the tempo of conversation and tackle one question or one point at a time.
Let's just go to the first question; those both are complicated questions. So hopefully, now you're more aware of the so-you're-saying trap when people "assume the sale" and, of course, the smash technique. This moves us to the second section of this video, which is how to persuade someone in these kinds of situations.
I will say it seems to me that it doesn't look like Jordan is necessarily trying to change Cathy's mind but simply to debate in front of an audience. There are still some valuable tips to be gleaned from this video, and a few things that I'd add. First, do not straw man the other person's ideas, even if they're doing it to you.
To be clear, I don't know if I mentioned this: straw manning is when you create a caricature of their ideas and then attack those rather than what they truly believe. Instead, show the other person that you are truly engaging in their real points, attempt to understand them, and sometimes this means that you have to ask them to repeat themselves so that you can. Seven?
Seven women? Repeat that one—seven women running the top FTSE 100 companies in the UK. Well, the first question might be, after you've made an honest attempt to understand them, you need to make sure that they can understand you, which is necessary for persuasion.
To do that, you often have to use visual imagery. For instance, here's a very abstract point without any images that Jordan makes: . .
. that it's inevitable that there will be continuity in the way that animals and human beings organize their structures. It's absolutely inevitable.
And there is one-third of a billion years of evolutionary history behind that. Now, maybe you can understand that, but it kind of lacks any emotional oomph. But notice how the addition of a concrete example makes that one-third of a billion years just feel different.
That's so long that a third of a billion years ago, there weren't even trees; it's a long time. So adding concrete examples, especially ones that people can easily imagine, is a smart persuasive move. Lastly, when you're arguing, oftentimes the best way to get someone to change their position is not by changing their mind, but by gently showing them that they are already agreeing with you.
I talked about this in the frame video, but here's an example from this interview: Why should your rights to freedom of speech trump a trans person's right not to be offended? Because in order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive. I mean, look at the conversation we're having right now.
You know, like, you're certainly willing to risk offending me in the pursuit of truth. Why should you have the right to do that? It's been rather uncomfortable.
This is huge. Jordan is no longer arguing that her point is wrong; he's arguing that she already agrees with him—her behavior and her previous statements demonstrate that she cares more about free speech than not offending people. And then Jordan doesn't try to make this point wrong; he shows her how they're actually very much in alignment.
You're doing what you should do, which is digging a bit to see what the hell's going on. And I gave you what you should do, but you're exercising your freedom of speech to certainly risk offending me. And that's fine.
I think—more power to you as far as I'm concerned. And then, of course, Cathy feels stumped because she does actually. .
. Agree with Jordan, and she's proven it herself. People have a strong desire to remain consistent with things they've already said and done, so oftentimes, this becomes one of the few ways to persuade someone who's really dug in their heels.
You're basically showing them that they don't have to move in order to agree with you; they already do right where they're dug in. And then, of course, Jordan hits her with the "gotcha. " .
. . uh, and.
. . [sighs] I'm just trying to work that out, but I mean.
. . [sighs] Jordan: Hah.
Gotcha. Cathy: You have got me. You have got me.
Even though I laughed at that phrase at the time I was watching the interview, I have to say that the last bit, "gotcha," does not improve Jordan's persuasive case. It actually makes Cathy feel silly and wrong, as opposed to happy to discover that she and Jordan are really on the same team all along. If I had to give one last point of constructive criticism, it would be that Jordan answered all of Cathy's questions rather than trying to proactively address her deeper, unstated emotional concern.
In my opinion, that emotional concern is that Jordan is her enemy — that if he believes something, it must be against her interests. If Jordan could have found that and pointed to a more common ground that they share, which we all, of course, have, I don't think the interview would have continued in such an argumentative fashion. But Jordan's role isn't necessarily to convince Cathy Newman of anything — it's to debate for an audience and to promote his book, which I think he did at an A+ level.
If you think that I missed something or you just want to discuss, leave a comment below. I'm actually going to be checking periodically, but I will be most active in the comments for that first hour after the video goes live, which is now 2 p. m.
Eastern on Mondays. So hit subscribe and hit the notification bell to make sure that you're notified when I am here and chatting. That way, you can hop on if you want to discuss anything with me or if you have a question that you'd like to ask.
I also think that this video makes a very strong companion for both the Tyrion video that I mentioned about frames, which are super interesting, and the previous Jordan Peterson video, which will teach you how to get respect without being a bully. So click the screen if you want to check either of those out. Hopefully, you guys enjoyed this video, and I will see you in the next one.
