Multiculturalism is 'a miracle of STUPIDITY' | Jordan Peterson talks Trump, Sunak and Israel

Jordan lovely to see you thank you for your time today um you've spoken about trying to tilt the world towards heaven and away from hell are you saying that we're headed to Hell in a handart and is the decline of Western Civilization reversible do you think well those always exist as possibilities and we all know that in our own lives because you know that things can go badly or they can go well and you also know that you have some relationship with that because you know that if you continue that pattern of dreadful mistakes that

you're inclined to make that you could stop making if you wanted to that things could get very bad for you and likely have at different points in your life and so those realities are always set out ahead of us and the notion of heaven and hell are the you could think about those those Notions as the ultimate reaches of those possibilities you know and we never fully inhabit an archetypal hell but I would say owitz came close you know it was close enough for me and then with regard to having well you know you inhabit

that now and then when I think the easiest Pathway to what's meant classically by Heaven is often to be found in love especially in relationship with children yes you know you see when when when I had my my wife and I had my daughter we lived in a pretty poor area in Montreal and we used to push her around in a cart and as you do with babies and one of the wonderful things to see was that even the roughest Street guys would you could see the best of them if they weren't completely obliterated by

their lives you know you could see them light up that light well that's you know the ultimate extension of that light is heaven and we make choices that move us in one direction or the other all the time and the way that Society unrolls itself is a consequence of those choices and and in a much more direct way than people tend to think so are we doomed to an apocalyptic nightmare no more than we have been in the past although perhaps faster now because of the rate of technological transformation I don't think that things have

to be I don't think it's ever the case that things have to move in a hellish Direction but they sure could so but life feels a bit hellish at the moment if you think about the war in Ukraine recent events in Israel we've had a lot of divisiveness on the Streets of London in recent days and weeks do you think that there's a way of reversing the sort of tribalism associated with say identity politics well we're we're experimenting with how to do that on a large scale this week here in London so at the conference

that that's occurring around us and do I think it's possible to reverse it I think it's always possible to reverse it I mean look the Soviet Russia dumped the Soviet Union you know and maybe you're not very happy with Russia at the moment but they did decide that that totalitarian experiment was inappropriate we locked ourselves down miserably for 2 years absolutely pointlessly toying with totalitarianism copying China in essence very rapidly but we decided that maybe that wasn't such a good idea and backed off and so I don't think things are ever set so miserably that

there's no hope so and certainly I don't think that's the case with the world right now because the Horizon of opportunity that's in front of us is at least as vast as the Horizon of catastrophe and I would say vaster because I think in the final analysis good triumphs over evil I think it's more powerful in the final analysis that truth is more powerful than falsehood virtually by definition although we do live in this post-truth world I mean we've seen around some of the debate around Israel this week of people perpetuating falsehoods we also live

in this Society now where the prevailing attitude ude is if you don't agree with me then you're not just wrong but you're a bigot and a racist and deserve to be cancelled so or worse or worse so I think there's a perception that Western governments particularly have been weak on woke they've been weak on the socalled tolerance who are actually extremely intolerant how does the silent majority cope with this well usually often too often perhaps by putting their head in the sand I mean that's certainly the case in my country because it's taken multiple dismal

turns for the worst in the last eight years but it's led the Liberals there were led by a very charismatic leader who's extraordinarily narcissistic and who's used compassion look if you're really narcissistic and manipulative the best disguise is compassion and you can get very good at acting that out and if you're very good at it it's very hard to stand against you because your constant excuse is well I'm just doing this for the good of someone else not only for for the good of someone else but for the good of the most OP depressed and

suffering yes you know and if you're good at that it's very hard to first of all it's very hard to be suspicious enough to actually detect the magnitude of that lie and second it's hard to stand against it without easily being tarred and feathered as a bigot you know when I when I first came to some political trouble let's say in Canada in 2016 I spoke up against a bill that I thought was an unwarranted intrusion into the realm of free speech and free thought which is what it was but it was guised in the

cloak of well we're just caring for the the least of the Lesser which who was in this case people confused about their sexuality and their gender trans people let's say and the you know the immediate accusation towards me was that I was hateful and a bigot well you know it's why did you choose this hill to die on why why don't you care about these poor suffering people can't you just use the language that would make them feel better and then if you are also you know why are the governments weak on that sort of

thing look I talk to conservatives and classic liberals all over the Western World individual by individual and although this is starting to change to some degree they're all terrified of being torn apart by the bloodthirsty mob and no wonder but then that suggests that politicians may have lost their courage and I'm wondering what your analysises of Ry no the mob just got more effective well maybe but you've met with some conservative MPS we I mean has rishy sunak conservatism lost its way well he inherited a mess to you know to be fair and B how

Boris Johnson got enticed Down The Net Zero road is just beyond me I think it probably had something to do with his young wife you know but he swallowed hookline and sinker the apocalyptic narrative that implied that the only way forward into the future was to decimate poor people and to make energy more polluting and 10 times as expensive which is rather a preposterous plan as we can see by how it's laid itself out in the UK and even more stunningly in Germany and poor sunx in a position where he has to go that looks

like it was a mistake which isn't really a glorious vision of leadership and I don't really know what he's supposed to do with that mess now what he's been doing is rolling it back to some degree and you might say perhaps not fast enough and I suppose I would incline to agree with that but by the same token I'm glad I'm not in his shoes what the conference here this week was designed to to suggest at least in part was a broader Vision than the mere vision of oops it looks like we made a mistake

on the energy and environment front although there are some conservative voices you've just touched on this in this interview who feel like they are moted you know you heal Miriam Kates or Danny Krueger talk about the value of family yeah and then there are people waiting in the wings to clamp down on that you're being sexist you're being derogatory towards women by referencing their role in a family you've been scapegoated by the left some could argue once described I think as how was it a pseudo intellectual hero to the incel community that was a pretty

good line that one I me but what's your reaction to those sorts of criticisms which must be very hurtful well they were hurtful for a good while but after a while they just sort of became comical because they just got more and more absurd look every category has a an ideal at the center and a margin at The Fringe and if the center is destroyed the margin will be demolished as well now the radicals think that you can bring the margin to the center but that's preposterous because a margin is a plurality and if you

bring the pl plurality to the center you demolish the demolish everything you demolish the category well look if you have the nuclear family as the minimal ideal obviously you simultaneously exclude to some degree those people who aren't in that constellation but if you destroy the constellation itself everyone disappears so I'll give you an example so we had LGB and then we had LGBT well now the t is destroying the L and the G and the reason for that is that the margin will devour itself and so it might be the case that my Pro-Am stance

marginalizes but it's even more the case that the stance that says any old thing goes destroys AB absolutely everything and you're naive to think that that's not the case and I think that what's happening 80% of the kids who undergo at least before this recent explosive epidemic on the female side 80% of the kids who are undergoing gender transformation surgery unnecessarily are gay right well that's a classic Stellar example of what happens when the margin takes the center the margin can't take the center now so that brings up a real problem which the leftist point

out to is like how do you have a category say with the family that nuclear family as the minimal ideal without being prejudice against other people and it's something like um an informed and humble tolerance you know like there's divorce in my immediate family you know and certainly in my extended family my sister's being divorced my brother's being divorced my daughter's being divorced every family has people in it who are single or who are widowed or or who are in gay relationships I mean the family is an ideal that's breached more than it's adhered to

but that doesn't mean you get to sacrifice the ideal the ideal still has to stay and then we have to live with the tension between the ideal and the the fragments that that surround it that actually make up well even if you're in a dedicated marriage I me there's been times in my marriage with my wife where relationship was very tense so we've moveed we moved away from the ideal but you don't throw out the ideal just because it's difficult to attain and because it excludes what's not ideal because then you destroy everything if you

have no ideal there's nothing to work for and the notion that we can somehow move beyond the minimal nuclear family I just don't think there's any evidence for that whatsoever and I would also say that when contemplating that we might want to look at those who are truly the most vulnerable and victimized and the ones who are most vulnerable and victimized by the breakdown of the nuclear family are 100% children it's plain and absolutely simple children without fathers for example do way worse way worse and that the if if if if the evidence that's been

acred on that side isn't convincing to you then no evidence about anything ever would be convincing about anything although the alternative you to that would be that you are stigmatizing single mothers by saying that because actually you could have an extreme I am stigmatizing single mothers is that a problem though if you have a strong and empowered woman who is bringing up a family in the absence of a father who actually maybe their absence is welcome maybe the dad wasn't a good influence you'd arguably be better off with the strong mother than two weak parents

well we you there's obviously exceptional cases where the exception is the preferable alternative yeah obviously well that's what people that's the decision that people make when they get divorced you know most people who get divorced aren't happy with it and but they accept the broken marriage as the re as the reality that's preferable to the continuation of the of the relationship and I've certainly had couples for example or people in my clinical practice for whom the divorce was clearly the right alternative they were married to people who were narcissistically Psychopathic who were making their lives

absolute hell but that doesn't mean that you get to escape from the ideal without the price of stigmatization you can do a good job as a single mother but that doesn't make it an ideal not a societal idea you mentioning narcissism again I mean do we think that individualism has turned into narcis ISM and that there is a greater prevalence of narcissism twang Jee twangy has made that case she's a quite a quite a good social personality psychologist I mean you've described Trudeau as a narcissist would you describe for instance Harry and Megan as narcissists

I have to tread lightly with such categorization being a clinical psychologist you know I'll leave myself to speculation well twang is the best source on this and she believes and I think there's some truth in this is that the hyper emphasis for example on the development of self-esteem at all costs in in the education system which was a pathology generated by the faculties of Education you know damn their hides has produced a more uh a generation of young people who are tilted more in a narcissistic Direction and this constant insistence that you can Define yourself

you know independent of all social relationships whatsoever and that you should pursue what's hedonistically desirable at every second come what may well all that's by definition narcissistic so and it's but I think mostly what it's produced though probably more than a than a what would you say epidemic of narcissism is that it's produced an epidemic of depression and anxiety and Jonathan height right now is writing about that he's a famous personality and social psychologist a very good one and he he's documenting evidence he spoke at this conference here this week he's documented evidence that the

typical female the typical liberal identifying young woman in the United States is statistically more likely to have been diagnosed with a mental illness than less likely yes so it's the majority it's particularly hitting young liberal women hard and so is that a narcissism I think mostly it's manifesting itself in an excess of misery there's some narcissism as well you probably have to be tilted that way to begin with though you know can I just ask you about multiculturalism yeah because we have witnessed some extraordinary scenes on the Streets of London we've had the call for

an inter n from London to Gaza we've got a huge amount of division at the moment between some sectors of the Muslim Community and Jews we've seen an uplift in islamophobia and in anti-Semitism in recent times does that suggest that multiculturalism has failed well there was no such thing as Multicultural philosophy it's it's so I it's so purile and what moralizing and unsophisticated that it's kind of a miracle of stupidity I mean first of all we've always had a multicultural world that's why there's been Wars right so along with multiculturalism goes Wars when the cultures

don't get along so what happens when you import that well two things you either import that under a unifying rubric which would be something like the Melting Pot in the United States or you retain the Multicultural divisions okay and you might say well we benefit from the diversity which is arguably true you know I mean when I came to London in the 1980s I I went to a reasonably good restaurant and I was fed canned spaghetti you know the food here was to call it dismal was an absolute compliment and so one of the benefits

of multiculturalism has been a radical diversification let's say in in Cuisine and that's a huge benefit but if you think you can import multitude of cultures without a unifying rubric and not import the problem of interpersonal and social conflict you're either you're either blind or stupid or both and both's a dreadful combination so like what on What basis does multiculturalism become peace you wave some magic wand and all of a sudden everybody gives up their cultural differences and can live in harmony harmony defined by what is there some unifying Harmony well if there's some unifying

Harmony then multiculturalism isn't the solution it's like Unity through diversity you know peace through War you know it's a Preposterous it's a Preposterous claim it's foolish in its extreme and so and then when there's tension like there is in the world now well you see the Rifts emerge and why wouldn't they especially if you're telling people you know adhere to the dictates of your previous culture yeah so you know it's just couple more quick questions because I know we push for time would a Biden or Trump Administration next time around be better for the Western

world I mean if someone put a gun to my head I'd pick Trump if there was gum to my head track record you know he no war under his administration and he brought in the Abraham Accords yeah well I would be pretty happy with another four years of no war and an extension of the Abraham Accords does that mean that Trump would be my preferred candidate no who would be I don't know I'm going to watch and see as things unfold there's a new entrance into the Democrat race Dean Phillips yes I know Dean a

little bit Dean's quite a remarkable person he's a I think he's a good person and I don't mean I don't mean that casually I've had some fairly extensive conversations with Dean he's he's a remarkable person and so we'll see where he goes I saw the first Republican candidates debate you know it was actually a rather impressive slate and so I know that Mike Pence dropped out Mike would have run I think a very administratively oriented Administration it would have been back to sort of Politics as everyday business which is really what you'd hope for if

you had any sense um VI gramas Swami is extremely creative and entrepreneurial very Dynamic I think it's very interesting to see him in the race Nikki Haley's she's a tough coach cookie yeah and she's fun to watch and so you know there's some promising candidates on that side now Trump is Trump's a formidable Force yeah and at the moment he certainly has the upper hand but and I'm not pleased with Biden for a variety of reasons not least and and this is something particularly Salient at the moment the Saudis I believe and I have reason

to believe this I believe they would have signed the Abraham Accords two years ago yeah if Biden would have been willing to give Trump some credit and I believe the Democrats didn't pursue Saudi Arabia at that point because it would have been inconvenient to give Trump credit and so they isolated and alienated him when they could have given him some credit he might have just ridden off into the sunset if he'd got some credit for what he had done but they turned him into the monster they needed to fulig against and now they have the

monster back and now we have the situation in Israel yes right where Iran is using Hamas to agitate the Islamic World against s Saud Arabia essentially as far as I can tell that's what's going on yes so I'm not very happy with the Biden administration because of that and I'm also not happy with the Democrat inability to deal with the woke left you know when when the squad run by aocc was was promoting the pramas demonstrations in New York the White House spokeswoman did come out and denounce them that was the first time in years

six years and I've talked to many Democrats where I actually saw the Democrats draw a line I've asked 40 Democrats that I've talked to some on my podcast when does the left go too far not one of them would answer not one not even Robert Kennedy he said I'm not trying to run a divisive campaign it's like fair enough you know but you could draw a line between you and the Communist Psychopaths you know so that would be a good start well hey final question which of your 12 rules for life do you think is

the most important tell the truth or at least Le don't lie yeah you know if people are wondering even people who who labor under the burden of genuine oppression if they're wondering what they can do to set the world right one of the things you can do to set the world right that you could do is you could stop lying by your own judgment of what constitutes a lie it's somewhat different than telling the truth you know because what do you know about the truth the truth that's hard but you could cease to utter words

you know to be false and by doing so you would cease to tilt things towards hell right and that's actually quite the moral accomplishment and it has a much larger effect than you might think I've talk to literally to thousands particularly young men but but not only thousands of of young people around the world who've told me that they decided at some point in the last four or five years to stop lying and that their lives entirely transformed and they usually stay say that in something like a State of Shock because many of them were

in dismal and Dreadful places and are doing so much better now that they actually can't believe it so that's a lovely thing to see Jordan Peterson thank you very much for joining me my pleasure thank you for inviting me thank you