The Signs of a Doomed Relationship | Esther Perel

monogamy has been an imposition on women forever all over the world primarily in order for him to know to whom do the children belong and who will get the cows when I die it's about patrimony and lineage it had very little to do with love it had nothing to do with love spend the day at your screen you come home you take more time at another screen with your phone in hand while you're sitting next to somebody and you're surprised that there is nothing happening and no energy and no butterflies this is part of a

old old narrative you know and half the time it's lies it's lies it's not true coming to a therapist office and you'll hear the truth humor brings perspective humor brings lightness and levity humor takes you out of your goddamn seriousness of you know and I can't value humor and playfulness enough there is what people fight about and then there is what people fight for I I'm probably assuming the audience is somewhat familiar with you which I know is always a mistake so I'm actually going to I decided I'm going to jump into some sort of

doozy relationship questions that I think you can really knock out of the park because uh I I want people to know what they're dealing with uh in terms of I don't want to waste any time you know with a d Perell takes half a decade to get it to get it something book and what have you gotten from me Jordan maybe we start with that yeah well I we can do that I I will I have some stuff that I think will apply to a lot of folks who write into me for advice and it's

hard to pin you down with a handful of topics that fit into one show because we've known each other for so long I've known your work for so long it's like if we had 12 hours fine but I've got to pick the top 10% of the stuff that people write in with so let's start with cheating because candidly it's juicy and you got to hook them early is there with this so I've heard you say about cheating that people don't necessarily want to leave their partner they just want to leave what they have become and

they want to get in touch with another part of themselves that they miss and this I think is really profound and I would like to flesh this out a little bit because I think it might give people the understanding that they might need not to blow up their relationship with cheating or if they're already cheating at least they better understand why they're doing it and they don't go from one Affair to another thinking they're going to find something in someone else so there's three questions in this one I'm going to try to break it down

you know I uh and I don't necessarily think that cheating is always the best word to even frame infidelity Affairs transgressions betrayals it's a very vast experience um there the world of cheating in that experience I have said that Affairs also happen often in good relationships they don't just they're not just symptoms of relationships that have gone completely aray and that and how then I'm asked how so and I say I think one of the most important sentences I heard over 10 years of doing this research was that sometimes a person goes looking elsewhere not

because they want to find someone else but because they want to find another self when we are in a relationship we enter a role we we become the father the mother the provider the subjugated the responsible whichever the and there is something about that transgression that often says it's not that I want to leave you I wanted to leave what I have become that doesn't justify it that doesn't give it permission that just explains that sometimes it's not about the relationship but it's about the individual idual and it's not against you but it is for

me and that said that for me can be very hurtful still if people find themselves in a recidivist positions where it's basically one after the other then you often know that it is not about the relationship if any time with a person says look this has happened to me every time I end up with somebody else I check out I disappear I lose my sexual interest I then you know that you're saying to the person you need to check what's happening to you and don't make this a a story about your partner who may think

if I was more of this or more of that then this wouldn't happen so it's very important what is relational and what is individual and where do you start to make sense of this complicated and often very painful experience this makes a lot of sense I've got a lot of friends and I know people are like oh friends huh but I I probably have to disclaim that these are not my relationship questions these are mostly things that people have written in about um no one's going to believe me when I say that but whatever I

I have a lot of friends who will say things like man I love my wife but I always I want to do this or I want to go and live in another country and just do that and it doesn't sound like they have any issue to your point with their relationship it seems like they just miss being young and and free now they've got two kids they've got a mortgage they job is their quality control engineer somewhere and they're like well I thought I'd be inventing new kinds of airplanes for the Air Force or whatever

and they just want to like hit a reset button and go on a vacation from their actual life and the way that they do that is by just pretending they have no responsibility to anyone else or or something like that yeah yeah so so everybody does he and she and they it's not a gender specific thing um you enter a relationship you become you enter a family and what we often do is it becomes security here and Adventure there responsibility here playfulness there love here sex there you know and that um is often the way

people divided they're filled with imagination about the adventures they would have and sometimes you kind of want to say Do you ever bring any of that imagination home you would feel that home can be quite fun as well but you kind of bring a part of you home and this relates to the question you me before and then you bring the other parts elsewhere the fact that people long for Freedom or lack of responsibility or kind of No Boundaries for a moment yes now what do they do with their fantasies some relationships say take a

few weeks and go have your thing you know take a week and go and and and you know travel alone or go with a friend go rafting go go do you don't you know and there is room in the relationship for that in other relationships that's not the case and so it remains a fantasy you know by definition the question you want to ask is to what extent is the security and the stability that you are creating in your life an anchor for you that allows you to then ride the waves or to what extent

does it become like a straight jacket and one day you're going to bolt and if you bolt you do have to ask yourself what did I do to create a life that felt so constraining that I had no other option but to leave it rather than to sometimes step out of it and that's a Pity because that's a responsibility we should carry we have we can create our relationships today with options that we never have had you know and don't make it I'm the adventurer and my partner is the boore yeah I that actually makes

a lot of sense I think it it I see dynamic where the guy wants to travel a bunch or the the woman wants to travel a bunch and the guy doesn't do that so it does end up setting up where one person is it's like this cliche like oh the old ball and chain right that's an old expression that a lot of men used to use probably in the 50s or something like oh she will never let me do anything but I see it with both sides of relationships now and it it it's great if

each person has a way to like the guy goes rafting and during that same week or even a different week depending on Child Care uh the woman gets to go take her culinary school thing in France or whatever and you get this little vacation that brings you back to your your young free self without I don't know bringing home an STD or whatever it is or some dark secret uh and if but yeah if the other person isn't developing or or doing this you're right it's really easy to put one person into a bucket and

I think that's dangerous as well uh my mother-in-law is very perceptive with this kind of thing she told my wife and I don't necessarily agree with this cuz I think my wife is is doing just fine but my my mother-in-law said you need to be developing yourself like Jordan is he's working out he's learning languages and he goes places if you don't do that he's going to outgrow you and I don't love that my mother-in-law is scaring my wife like that but I think she means well and she's saying something very similar maybe to what

you mean with your advice here as well so it's a fascinating thing that you're asking me because you know marriage or committed relationships of any sort hetero or same seex never had at its core personal development yeah yeah you know that's not why people made families or married or you know so this is this in itself has to be seen as a very recent thing you know it's like the marriage for self-development the one that's going to help me become the best version of myself you know beyond security stability family children Etc now we also

have you know climbing Mount Olympus from which you have a fantastic View and those of us who climb do get that view but not everybody gets to climb so some couples live very much as overlapping vent diagrams we do everything together we go to sleep together we wake up together you know we see the same movies Etc some couples live much more in a differentiated fashion we have a strong core we share a few things that are really important to both of us and we have a large zone of that is personal be IT professional

social spiritual any artistic you know other interests there's not one model so that's the first thing is there's not one model when you describe the guys who talk about the bowling chain it always reminds me of the guys in the locker room yeah you know I have yet to hear a guy in a locker room talk about how his wife wants to jump him and he's not interested yeah you know so there is a social value to the idea that a man wants more adventurous sex this that and that you know he's he's constrained he's

with somebody who is not letting him or giving it to him this is part of an old old narrative you know and half the time it's lies it's lies it's not true come into a therapist office and you'll hear the truth yeah you'll hear the other the story is very very different but whenever you have a couple where one person talks about the other one won't let you the let word is problematic you know what is this what are we talking about here it's like what do people give each other permission do people respect each

other's needs do they say when one goes be it for the night and I'm not talking sex I'm talking just go out with a friend do they say have a great time or do they say again you have to go out if I say have a great time then I breed freedom in the midst of security I say to you go do that thing that you love to do that is not interesting to me or that I'm not a part of or that you prefer to do alone because it's not the same when we go

together and when you go see your bud on your own and while I say that when I say have a fantastic time you have a much more stronger inclination to want to come home home because we want to come back to the places that respect our freedom or our needs or our individuality and vice versa versus the ones that make us feel that every time we do something for ourselves we're taking something away from someone else provided that the other pieces that are in the realm of responsibility are attended to so your mother-in-law she says

to her daughter you know um don't forget yourself he pay he pays attention whatever it is that he's doing he pays attention to himself and he takes time for himself and he doesn't just think that the burden of caretaking is what defines him he thinks that he that it's not just he he will look good he will feel good he feels that he he invests in himself and don't lose yourself in the relationship which is a danger primarily for women also for men but historically more more so for women how do I stay connected to

myself when I'm connected to someone else has always been more of a women's concern historically today I don't think there is necessarily a difference but that's the root of what your mother-in-law is telling to her daughter yeah it's a it's a it's Clash of cultures in some ways or at least of of eras for my wife and she's always bouncing this off me and it's hard why does she answer to her mom you know I don't know I'm not there for this conversation but I think she's probably like yeah okay I know or I hope

she tells her what she's really doing which is a lot it's just a lot of invisible things you know maybe she doesn't go a week away with her friends or something like that traveling but you know she's working out she she learns all these different skills whether it's something cooking new meals or something like that which she actually enjoys I know it sounds domestic or whatever but she actually likes doing this um and do you think she would appreciate your putting her on on a plane or on a in a car for a week with

I don't think she would want to do that no I think she's more like can you please just give the kids a bath so I don't tear their heads off because it's been 12 hours of screaming in my face I think that's what she really I think that's what she wants I don't know I should ask her maybe that's a good idea what do you think maybe I should actually ask her what she wants I absolutely think you can ask her what she wants but I can also suppose that by now you probably have an

idea of what she wants because she told you so it could be to say I'm handling things today you have a day off yeah yeah that's she needs a break leave you leave with the little ones and leave her to be alone in the house because what happens when you're an adult in that situation is that the only time you can be on your own is when you are away from home and sometimes the biggest pleasure is to have the home empty and just to yourself and for more than a half an hour yeah so

you want to do her good that's a good idea yeah i' like turn on Netflix I don't even we got it's been so long since she's watching it she probably doesn't even know the remote works anymore we got gota gotta look up the instructions so you have an assignment right there a lot of people a lot of times people write in for advice and they'll ask things like I've got a crush on somebody at work or I I have I have what is it butterflies for them like I haven't had for my current partner or

in a long time or forever is is this our imagination Playing Tricks on us is it the grass is greener on the other side of the fence uh you already sort of answered the other third part of this which is does it reflect something about our current relationship which it may not so is this a trick that our mind plays or maybe it does no it's absolutely not a trick of the of the Mind the the mind is not playing a trick on you when you experience that the first question look this goes back to

the question of the Affairs that you asked me I have more than one set to people who tell me my partner does does do this to me anymore or I don't have those feelings anymore I said but you're not the same person coming home than the one who is going to see the other person if that person came home maybe your partner would be more interested in you as well you know it's so easy to always think it's the other person who lacks who's aboring who doesn't do anything who is not inspiring Etc and to

think that we are it's we call it fundamental attribution error you know it's the way that we think that if the partner is you know if if we are not available then we just say it's because I was really busy and I just didn't have much time to pay attention but if our partner doesn't pay attention then it's because they're you know they they don't have the right energy and they're not in the swing of things and they're characterological and ours is circumstantial you know it's very easy to do this so when you have butterflies

for someone else you just say first and formost wow I'm it's a nice thing that I can still feel this I haven't felt this in a long time now how come where have I been or where have we been what are we doing to maintain a little bit of intensity or energy or erotic spark between the two of us and I'm not talking sexual spark I'm talking about aliveness vibrancy Vitality playfulness curiosity you know do I have the same kind of curiosity and I come home with a question to my partner of something that I

want to know about them I show interest or do I sit on the couch and I do this with my phone while I'm watching TV and I make them feel that whatever they tell me it's not worth it for me to even lift my head this is what's going on in a lot of people's homes you know you spend the day at your screen you come home you take more time at another screen with your phone in hand while you're sitting next to somebody and you're surprised that there is nothing happening and no energy and

no butterflies you know if people treated their partner like they treat their clients or their best friends or these people that they're suddenly are meeting there would be a different energy in the house it's not just that it it leaves because of time and be you know couples who have an erotic spark they are deliberate they're attentive they make an effort they create it they don't just slouch on the couch and with the head down without an interesting conversation about anything except you know did you do this and did you do that MH yeah I

think I I I see this a lot especially with with parents that have little kids people are asking me you know do you have this is this something that you're dealing with cuz I think little kids it's really easy to get distracted by well work or family um I like the idea of harnessing that feeling in some way that doesn't get us into trouble right I I I guess before you can you can look at this as sort of like a an indicator that something is definitely wrong with your relationship or you can look at

it as an indicator that you need to change something about your your own behavior inside the relationship and I think that's that's probably the best way to look at it um and it's a creative way to it it's a good sort of check engine light for your relationship I suppose yes yes yes I mean and you know imagine imagine that you say oh I I it's something is really wrong because my partner is always complaining the next question then comes and what do you do then I mean nobody started out complaining they probably asked you

nicely at first then they started to ask you more insistently then you know when you have a nag always ask yourself what am I doing to raise the volume of the nag rather than just I have a nag when people feel hurt they don't nag when people feel attended to responded to and they don't have to see aund times the same question so the difference between there's something really wrong in my relationship and what I'm I doing that contributes to that they are interconnected questions yeah it's it's F it's quite fascinating and I love the

idea that everything I think essentially a lot of times our partner's behavior is a reflection of our our own or ourselves right so like you said with the nagging it's not a reflection you're involved in it it's like relationships are a figure eight you know the I ask you you don't answer so now I I asked you louder but you are now you don't answer again so then I ask you now it's like one person is reinforcing the very behavior in the other that they actually don't want if you want the other person to stop

talking then say something but if you're going to keep quiet until you explode for example this I mean I'm just thinking about the couples I've seen yesterday but you know the point is much of coup's life when things begin to go a little bit right is often putting the responsibility on the other person without paying attention enough to what can I do to make this better or in what way am I contributing to my partner feeling the way they do if I really care that should be a normal question rather than stop CH you know

busting my chops and that's that you know I have a couple therapist people come to me like a drop off center what do you mean meaning here's my partner oh here's I'll tell you what is I'll tell you I'll I'm an expert I'll tell you and you fix it and I'll help you you know so you change a relationship you start by saying the what's the one thing I can control so yes you're right I'm I've experienced butterfly somewhere no it doesn't have to become the beginning of a of a downfall and I'm thinking to

myself I want this in my life I'm missing this so can I have a conversation with my partner where I say that are you missing this too what's happened to us do you feel like we just gone completely Flatline here do you miss something does it matter to you it matters to me what could we do you know that's then you because you don't have to solve it alone but you basically say you know I want these butterflies or I want a certain kind of energy or intensity or engagement I just don't want to feel

like my passion is at work and the best of me goes to work and the leftovers come home but that's a part of my responsibility too why do you think we as a society have such completely different ideas about why men and women cheat you know the old I think the The Stereotype is that men cheat for variety of novelty and women cheat because their emotional needs are not being met and it doesn't seem like that's accurate given what we've discussed no no that's that's that's uh look uh monogamy has never been an equal opportunity

or Fidelity right I mean men have prly had a license to cheat throughout history um and all kinds of evolutionary theories came to justify that they have different hormones which they do uh they are more inclined um etc etc um but basically uh monogamy has been an imposition on women forever all over the world primarily in order for him to know to whom do the children belong and who will get the cows when I die it's about patrimony and lineage it had very little to do with love it had nothing to do with love it

was an economic arrangement in order to know provenant which is the one thing that men have never been able to ascertain until very recently with DNA test was Providence is this my kid you know whereas he can go everywhere and nobody knows but if she goes somewhere you know something May happen so why do we think that men want sex and women want love because every gender gets license given by Society about what is supposed to be important for them and it is acceptable for men to say they want sex but it is not acceptable

for men to say they want love or connection or intimacy or tenderness which are all forbidden emotions that men often access true sex and it is not okay for women to say they want sex but it is okay for women to say they want love so every gender has been given a license for what are the needs that are acceptable and what are the needs that are not and from that place we will say men cheat for sex women cheat because they're Lonely no it's not necessarily the case and it also is the different in

many many different cultur context but basically give the woman a car give her a place where she can be autonomous and the stats are very clear that the differences are not nearly as innate as we think the con the the differences have been primarily cultural and biological yeah I I I love that because it makes us it makes it a lot easier to understand our partner if we realize that they're the difference or the way that they think is actually quite similar to the way that we think and operate and not some sort of like

completely different thing because their genotype is different because they got have an extra chromosome or you know not an extra chromosome a different chromosome but that's a different issue uh another CH type of chromosome and we can't possibly decode the uh the differences in in genders and sex it's everybody start with XX yeah yeah yeah and then men become XY and then something breaks and here I am yes or breaks off I'd love to discuss conflict I know that some of the work you're working on I know that some of the material you're working on

most recently and I've heard you say and maybe even on this show but certainly elsewhere ask don't complain when it comes to your partner tell me more about that so two questions right why am I interested in conflict and then how can people diffuse conflict sure I mean I was going to get there but go go ahead as there but the complaint vers it's complain or CR criticize right I mean um John Gutman often says you know that behind a criticism there is a veiled wish you know when I say you don't do something there

is actually something that I want now I can completely continue and talk about how you don't do and you don't pick up and you don't clean and you don't attend and you don't or I can say it really matters to me that but if I put myself out there and I say what I want what I need what I care about and you don't respond then I have to deal with the rejection if I go at you and I criticize you I experience myself as less vulnerable of course I get much less too so this

is the notion about you know ask for what you want rather than criticize or complain for the thing you don't get it's okay to have wishes make them public that's first now why conflict because I think that we're becoming a conflict avoidant Society we are basically experiencing and watching around us massive social atrophy virtualizing our lives basically spending entire days at home you don't have to go out to work to exercise to eat to see movies nothing so you know where are you going to deal with the friction and the close proximity with other people

where you learn to deal with difference and disagreement and so we polarize we avoid conflict and we polarize and that's the context in which I said you know I need a good one hour very deliberate specific not generic talk about argument fighting difference disagreement conflict the stuff that exists in every relationship and that people are more and more avoiding you know people this day tell you I have a I talk to this person every day but it's all on text they never actually see the person they never see the effect of what they're doing or

saying on the face of the other person I'm talking to you now and I'm watching every response of yours to to what I say I'm not just you know talking to the in the wind kind of thing so it's this conflicting is becoming extremely important on a societal level and on a relational level romantic friends work all of them so how can how can couples I guess this is maybe not the right question but I'm going to ask it anyway how can couples argue well are there certain rules uh or vocabulary changes perhaps cuz I

a long time ago I told my wife or my wife and I agreed I should say that we needed to ditch the you always or you never you know people start a lot of things a lot of sentences with that when they're they're fighting or arguing because my lawyer mind just goes to the one time I did or did not do that thing instead of hearing what she actually needs me and wants me to hear I'm like well actually yesterday I did do that and she's like fine you almost never and and then I'm like

well I'm right because I found a hole in your argument which is you know not constructive at all but it's not just your lawyer's mind anybody would react this way because you've just been dumped a truth about you that you don't relate to yeah so one thing the always never first and the you and the accusation and the kind of categorical statement which is meant to to express a an impression an experience a subjective experience but it's presented as an objective fact and Truth pseudo factual talk that like that that's a good one on the

list of the the seven eight things you should not do if you want to fight better so I'm going to give you since you started with the ones you don't want to do a list of the ones that you don't want to do and if you avoid those you know that you're fighting better okay yeah so one of them is this the categorical absolute character statements that present as truth when they are basically Bally meant to talk about an experience number two kitchen sinking yesterday I saw a person and you know the minute they were

having a conversation about something she brought in five years of stuff you know so you put all the piling up all the dirty dishes in the sink you can't wash any you know talk about the thing you're talking about and stay focused on that and don't start bringing in everything else and when you've lost here you bring in the next thing that's another one retaliation oh you hurt me let me show you I'm going to hurt you more that's another big one you know um [Music] um details it wasn't Thursday it was Wednesday you know

it makes a huge difference in the conversation that we are having yeah uh being right rather than wise you know uh I have a one up on you you know I have a oneup on you and I disqualify everything you say and I use it and I do you know I weaponize your vulnerability at every turn whatever you just said I'm going to just squeeze you with it I mean the repertoire of ways that people can have destructive fights is a very very imaginative you know um confirmation bias I only look for evidence that reinforces

my belief I think you don't care and all I do is scan for every time you haven't cared when in fact it we know that in distressed relationships there's a lot of good that people no longer see because they only emphasize they're looking for the one thing that's going to strengthen their point of view that's another cognitive distortion that goes with bad fighting so what do you do to fight better the opposite of all of that yeah the opposite of all of that look I'm really pissed this this really upset me you know you know

how much this matters to me you stay to the point you know you disagree vehemently you can be vociferous about it but you don't get into contempt you don't start just blaming you you accept sometimes when the other person says yes but when you did this that really and you don't twist it around you just own it you take responsibility and you just say yes that's true know I have people they listen to a list of what the other one is saying and then they pick the one thing they can disagree with no acknowledge did

you up did you not show up did you forget just say I forgot own it don't be ashamed about it be responsible about it that in itself shortens the distance yes you are right I could have done this better I should have checked I don't think I've ever heard you drop an F bomb before I wasn't ready for that it you're you're so right though how we generate stories around our partners friends family for that matter everybody in our lives right then we only look for information that confirms that story you know she's always late

or she she forgets to put the cap back on the toothpast Pace whatever it is could be big or small and then you see when they do that but you don't recognize the other 50 times when they don't do that because of confirmation bias and then your pet PE when they do other things yeah sure or when they do other things so every time you about the thing that you don't want to do then just think about all the stuff you don't have to think about be gracious you know nuclear family life is a basically

it's really a stressful situation on people especially if they have on top of it young kids pets and in-laws and older parents and all the other responsibilities of life we are we were not conceived to live like this so don't take it out on your partner the thing itself is is the you may want to criticize the thing itself but fighting well is fighting in a way that doesn't make it feel like you have nothing to lose when you have everything to lose fighting well is when you say if I say this now now what

what will this do to my relationship because I could be right but I will be right and alone or I could be right but I may not be married to you or I you know I may want to be wise and it doesn't matter if I'm right because because it's not going to come across so protect the relationship is probably one of the big things about how you you know go tell a friend who is going to agree with you it's okay but don't come back home and say my my friends all agree with me

I told everybody about all of our personal problems and you're the one that's wrong yeah that that would not I there's no Universe in which that is a good idea I will say anything my wife does anything Jen does to annoy me I am positive that I'm doing something much worse to annoy her and she just doesn't harass me about it or she's or she's given up on me fixing some of those things and giving me a lot of Grace so I do try to remember any little thing where I'm like gosh she took my

washcloth off again and I'm like well she's probably washing it and if I mention this she's going to get annoyed because she's going to be like yes I did your laundry again you're welcome and then I realize that I you know I'm damn lucky to be I'm damn lucky someone's taking that washcloth or I'd be washing myself with a three-month-old washcloth that never gets cleaned and do you say that to her uh the last part I never bring up any of this actually I just avoid talking about it at all because I feel like I

don't need to bring up that I don't have a washcloth um uh and you ever say thank you no no no no I should say thank you I don't say thank you no I should definitely do that I'm going to write I'm going to put a note right now to do that you know what's one of the best pieces of advice I ever came up with but I didn't know it it's people who told it to me afterwards there was it was a situation where you know people the situation is very simple a person comes

home late and they basically apologize and they think they're being nice because they apologize for whatever missed the game missed the dinner didn't show up in ETC and I said don't apologize because if you apologize what you're really saying is whatever I did was more important than you so you're still all important it's all grandio but if you come home and you say thank you I couldn't have stayed without you yeah that's much better oh I like that everybody rewind that and then listen to that again yes then I am here at home thinking I'm

part of something and not you know I'm mashed potatoes and there is the delicious food somewhere else you know the other meeting that is more important than me I've become a part of it and we are interdependent and I know that you rely on me and you acknowledge that yes you could not have stayed another two hours if I hadn't been mining the fort here it changes the entire power Dynamic it changes the independence it changes the feeling you know used and and and not appreciated all of it it actually is one of the most

important defense Defenders against conflict yeah that is brilliant I I mean it when I say people hit that back 15 or 30 seconds button on your podcast player and listen to that again I think that might be one of the most important and easily easily most practical things that people can use as a result of this cuz I know you're you're not a person where I can say give me three top tips for not pissing off your spouse I mean but that that's a really good practical thing that people can sink their teeth into and

I think it's it could change a relationship for the better if you just frame things like that because it it does frame things as this is my partner cooperating with me tag teaming whatever this life task this this life is and I couldn't do it without them so thank you for that versus hey I'm sorry that you had to sit around for two hours while I missed everything and you did it all correct yeah you got it which is why you thank Jen for doing the laundry yeah I'm going to go I'm going to I

literally made a recurring task on my computer to do that every day until it becomes a habit that I don't have to remember by looking at my task list again um thanks for watching on YouTube remember you can also enjoy the Jordan Harbinger show on Apple podcasts Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts our podcast feed is a treasure Trove of insights from intellectuals authors spies artists athletes Pioneers Engineers former mafia boss and Business Leaders all sharing their secrets to success for more information click the link in the description now back to the show I

also feel like the content of a lot of arguments not not necessarily my own well actually my own sure everybody's that I see and hear about it's the content of the argument is never the thing that they're really fighting about like it's not about the kids it's not about it's not about this whatever swimming lessons it's not it's it's about feeling like the person is not acknowledged or appreciated to your earlier point or vice versa and it it's still strange because even though I feel like I I know this consciously I'll start my wife and

I will start I say fighting but I mean whatever lighter having a little guess something like that in the car and then it's like fine cancel the swimming lessons then and then it's like an awkward car ride home and it's like neither of us give a crap about the swimming lessons it's not about the swimming lessons it's hard to Zone in on the thing that the fight is actually about maybe because that thing is deeper and less comfortable than than the schedule or the swimming lessons or the teacher thing is that why is that what's

going on here what's going on is this there is what people fight about and then there is what people fight for so you fight about the swimming lesson but what you fight for is power and control that's the hidden agendas of most fights is it an issue of power and control whose decision matters most who has priority is it about care and closeness can I trust you do you have my back can I rely on you and care and respect and recognition do you value me do I matter so sometimes in this instance with the

you're in the car say okay cancel what is this for you what what what's the thing that really gets evoked here for you what what what are what are you fighting for what's underneath and yesterday I had a person and you know it was about care and closeness can I trust you will you be there you know and then I said and why is that the piece for you that is so important and then you go and layer further and which you do in therapy but you also can do sometimes in a conversation It's like

because people get to know each other you know Jen and so you by now you know her mom you know her context you have a sense right so in this instance she tells tells me grew up pretty much with her by herself took care of the younger siblings mother worked alone outside of the house did the laundry did the cooking before mom came home was rather on her own you know neglected and neglected by the needs of the family not that there was an intent to that so when he doesn't show up it's not just

he doesn't show up because he she can't rely on him it's I've always been alone I've never had anyone I could rely on people don't come true for me in this way um my whole life will be like this and I thought when I marry this guy or when I have a partner that I will have the support that my mother couldn't give me that's what I am fighting on and once you get to that level you basically are it evokes empathy in the other person too because now you know it's the freaking swimming lessons

are like you know and you kind of say I am here here for you I mean it's not because I don't want to go pick up the kids at the pool that I'm not here for you so it's not like I'm going to do everything you ask me but I have a deeper understanding for why this issue is one of our perennial ones yeah 20 years later we can still have the same arguments in a different form and that's the what's underneath you know it's what you're fighting for I'm fighting not to feel alone not

to feel like this is the truth of my life and you were supposed to not to make me not supposed to but with you I was hoping that I wouldn't live this truth again everybody has those it's three things power and recog power and control car and closeness respect and recognition that is that's really interesting do you uncover that I I hear in your show and in your therapy sessions you say things like so what I'm hearing is and then you kind of reframe it in different words I've heard you say that we should something

like that is that how you uncover those in that conversation I mean you're in the car yeah you can just at some point say look we know it's not the swimming lessons what is it for you I want to actually understand it I mean otherwise we're just going to continue have the same you know same old same old you know and you just and sometimes people know and sometimes they don't she didn't know yesterday we we you know I we we went and traveled a little bit until we we hit the spot but it's okay

to say what is it you know and then sometimes people say it's because I feel sometimes that you know many times it's an easy one if I have to ask you five times you obviously don't care or don't hear what I'm telling you as if you're doing this on purpose you know when sometimes people do and sometimes they don't um and so it's it's stepping outside of the tiny frame and just saying what is it you think you you know when you what and then what's it for me you know um and I and the

Very question this is the important piece here it doesn't really matter so much what the answer is it's the fact that the question says I'm care and I'm curious rather than I don't give up I was going to put another F yeah good yeah I'm here for it that's right I don't give I don't give a it's like you know I'm just here to make my point rather than I actually feel that we matter and I'm not going to say stuff that just makes it feel like you know no I don't at all this is

the level you don't go into therapy in your relationship but you just ask a question that says what are we doing why do you think this thing is you know every Friday we have the same argument I noticed on as well on on the show you almost never recommend people I don't even know if I've heard you ever do this recommend that people break up or end their relationship and I wonder under what circumstances would you recommend that people just H how do we know if something is actually over yeah so actually there are more

than one episodes where I tell people this is over and or I said you better be friends than partners because as partners you suck you know so I do um I here's the thing I am often cautious on the podcast because it's onetime episodes It's a one-time session and I don't necessarily have that certainty in one time in my practice it's different I've worked with you over time and I've seen where it goes and I sometimes really have to say look your partner is gone I don't know I know you're fighting to maintain this but

they're gone and uh and you need to hear that or listen people you you there is nothing to work with you it's death upon arrival there I I I either each of you just comes here to basically say you've done a few sessions so that you can go to the lawyer and then screw the other person no I'm not participating in this or look you asked your partner to do a bunch of things and they've done all of this you've done squat I don't think they deserve you so I actually have said a lot of

things that are all about this without having to say I think you should leave on occasion but why don't I say it just flippantly because I don't have to live with the consequences only the person who makes that decision has to live with the consequences and they have to own it and I think a therapist can be very powerful and I don't want to be the one to carry your decision you need to carry it so if you ask me I asked are you asking me what you should do or are you asking me because

you've already made your decision and if you made your decision I'll support you yeah I think probably a lot of people do go to therapy to get cover for something they've already decided to do or not to do and that's a waste of your time first of all I would imagine I mean basically I know when I'm working towards something and I know when people are basically posturing you you do get a sense of that or when one person has one foot out the door or when one person is dropping the other one because they're

on their way out um there's a lot of you know why are you here what are you here to do in the podcast because it's one session I do not feel that I of I can take that Liberty I'm not a therapist I'm a podcast host that is doing therapeutic conversations and at that point only once or twice did I really say to people n this is so the the people on the podcast and to be clear you really are a therapist but when you're talking about when you're doing the podcast you're a podcast host

who's doing therapy those people have not had a bunch of sessions with you before they have never been my patients no there are 6,000 applicants to the new season who want to be on the podcast they are not patients and they will never be patients I keep these things to very separate that makes sense you know they don't apply with me they apply with the producers I show up they have been chosen they have a and then we meet and it it is in my office and it feels like it is it's it's a real

situation but that's it I will see them once and nobody else has ever seen them that's interesting by the way I I was going to mention this off air but whatever here we are I recognized my friend's voice in one of the episodes and I was like did you go on a podcast with a stare Pell and he was like send me the link because he I guess he hadn't heard it and uh it was kind of funny cuz it's I'm just going off this person's voice Cadence and I was like did you do this

thing where and he's like yes I did that was me so that was kind of funny out of all the thousands of people applying to be on your show and all the the selection of episodes that I heard I was like I'm pretty sure that's John all here we are um busted was it helpful it it was it wasn't super super serious for him I think it was more like yeah it was um but I think it was more like a I don't think he was horrified I mean he app he's the one who applied

to be on there so it was just kind of a funny thing cuz he probably thought no at least no one's going to know who who that is I can air that air that dirty laundry here you go yeah yeah put that on the Google form hey people might hear this and recognize your voice you never know the other people on the podcast by the way I call them spontaneously they send us voice questions and then I surprise them with a phone call all over the world oh wow and we and we do the sessions

like that so there's different formats now on on where should we begin but all of them exploring dynamics of Rel relationships you do some pretty interesting stuff on on the show I I think I heard this there was a particularly intense conflict and you made people lay on the floor what was that all about that was interesting changing their physiology like that yes yes have you ever tried to have an argument lying flat yeah I can't imagine it's probably we are mammals we are mammals we fight by charging you know we stand upright we lift

our shoulders we lower our neck we protect our eles and then we attack or defend that you can't do when you lie flat so I just wanted they began having a fight the usual same all Sayo and I said let's let's try do this on the floor and it indeed instantly changed the physiology which then made them suddenly completely change affect you know what the the physicality led into the emotionality and it's an extremely effective intervention and it's something you can do at home very very easily if you have a tiny bit of humor yeah

I was going to ask if you recommend people well one add humor because it seems like a really good way to deescalate things as long as it you don't use humor to avoid the actual issue which is tempting sometimes but also I'm sure there's some science in there like it chills the sympathetic nervous system or or whatever and is also quite silly trying to have a shouting match while you're staring at the ceiling fan I think that humor is underrated it's such an important Salve in relationships and I do think sometimes it's meant to avoid

and why not sometimes you should avoid going into the same tunnel one more time no if you have one person in the relationship who can diffuse it and make make everyone laugh it's not sarcasm it's not but it's really saying oh seriously we're GNA take we're going to do this again that it is a gift to the relationship humor brings perspective humor brings lightness and levity humor takes you out of your goddamn seriousness of you know and I can't value humor and playfulness enough and it's and people when people talk about fighting better they think

it's about fighting better it's actually about relating better and humor in a relationship is such a recognition of the difference of the other too it's a way of accepting who you're with I I love the idea of being able to have healthy conflict I know that's a it's probably a buzz word in every sort of relationship Circle healthy conflict but it's you just see these little cuts that people have in their relationship turn into these festering wounds over years and years if you can't do this right and I know I'll link to your upcoming course

that I think will be out by the time this episode comes out on conflict so that people can really dig into this because there's going to be a lot more like the things we discussed in that course I assume yeah yes plenty only CH chock full good that's that's what I like to see uh I I'd love to talk a little bit about how you grew up because I know you you you grew up around Holocaust Survivors was it true your parents were the only survivors from each of their families is that right yeah that's

correct both of them um one came from a family of nine one came from a family of seven they both lost everybody and spent each fourth and five years in concentration camps oh my gosh yeah I I grew up in trauma trauma yeah were you were you a refugee family I guess you have to be a refugee family yes my parents were refugees from Poland who came to Belgium and then they were five years illegal refugees in Belgium and only five years later did they become um legalized and then our first passport were un stateless

passports oh wow wow I didn't I didn't even know they had those um i' never heard heard of that it makes perfect sense for a conflict like that are you Jewish or where that your parents just polish that were P pushed out of Poland because of the Nazis were horrible to everyone no they were not gay not Gypsy or Roma and they were Jewish jewi so those were the three M groups that were uh I know that even annihilated even non I guess this is not a History Podcast but I think even non-jewish polls were

also put in camps were they not yeah so I'm I'm just curious did did yall have the couches covered in plastic that's what the Immigrant families back in Michigan where I grew up always at plastic on everything couch from 1965 looks like it's new except for it has a butt print in it that goes all the way down to the wood beautifully descriptive so this is very interesting this couch metaphor because I've often used it to describe what I saw was a distinction in the community of Holocaust Survivors that I grew up in and it

was but it's a distinction that I've used for all couples you know PE among survivors there were those who did not die and those who came back to life that's what I see in relationships too relationships that are not dead but they're just surviving and relationships that are living and thriving it's the same metaphor and the ones that survived that didn't die were the ones who had covered couches and lowered Shades and the world was a dangerous place and you didn't really take many chances and you avoided risk and you didn't trust anybody and the

ones on the other end of this where often what I call the people who understood the erotic as an antidote to death they understood vibrancy and aliveness and vitality you know as a way to to just Embrace Life they didn't survive for nothing and those those people didn't have any plastic on their couches yeah it's a that that there's a there is quite the metaphor in the plastic on the couch now that you bring that in yeah the the plastic on the couch it never really made a ton of sense to me right it's like

you got to use the thing and really enjoy it but you're right the plastic on the couches we've got to protect this thing and then it just it eventually it's no longer you don't end up with a new couch that you take the plastic off of you end up with an old couch that's still worn and used in a different way that you just didn't fully enjoy because it had that stupid plastic thing on it that when you laid down just made you feel sweaty and icky right but the word the key word is the

enjoy when you are in survival mode when you are Vigilant when you see danger everywhere when you don't take of the plastic you don't allow for joy and pleasure that's the piece It's like because when you are experiencing Joy or enjoyment or pleasure you're not Vigilant you can't be anxious and experience pleasure at the same time whereas when you are in the side that Embraces the danger of Life as a fact of life but you are in the erotic experience of it you're going to live life at its fullest then you experience pleasure You Can't

Be watchful and experience pleasure at the same time and so that's the essence of the word when you say the couch is an old couch that you never got to enjoy the lack of enjoyment is the key word here it sounds like you had a lot of cultures blending together around you it explains probably why you speak nine languages and it sounds like a lot of different foods from dayto day languages from day to day types of people in the house from one day to the next and I would guess you became pretty Adept at

not only flipping languages but flipping cultures or perceptions or the what's the the lens that you look at through the world right cuz if you're speaking German you have that German lens on the world and then if you speak French the next day or the next hour it's probably a very different lens on that conversation or that social interaction or just on everything that's around you in that moment I I love when I tour in Europe to be giving a talk in Flemish or Dutch and then a talk in German and then a talk in

Spanish and then a talk in French and then a talk in Hebrew all within three weeks I I love it I think it's like different parts of me wake up up the conversation is different uh it's traveling at multiple levels it's not just traveling other countries so yes languages are very important to me I work in seven of them and it is a gate to the to the world and um and I am a traveler by nature in in the way I I not just because I travel but because I I like to enter very

different worlds of my own were you conscious about learning all those languages was it kind of like I want to know whatever everyone is saying or was it just exposure to all these languages over time and you learned them through osmosis so we spoke five at home wow um you know my my father was illiterate by the way he could not write and he kind of taught himself to read newspapers but it's not that we there was education I'm the first who went to college um but Flemish and French are the two main languages in

Belgium my parents spoke polish Yiddish and German with each other so those were floating around I am schooled in Flemish I know I have a French accent but I'm actually from the Flemish part of Belgium schooled in Flemish then I traveled to Italy then I got involved with South American music then I was in a Brazilian band stuff like that you learn in school you learn traveling you learn on the pillow and you learn at home on the pillow that's funny I that is a yeah well that's a different conversation I suppose that's so fascinating

I did you ever ask your parents why they survived when other people in their family didn't do they have did they did that did that sort of Define I know a lot of survivors they have guilt around that or they have a story around that look I I was very very blessed that I had parents who um they didn't have Survivor guilt they wanted to live they fought to nail to stay alive like most survivors they will tell you that the first reason they alive is because of luck just they didn't get round up they

didn't called into the the triage of the day or things like that you know or that day didn't freeze minus uh 20 you know so that they they kept their feet and stuff like that and they could continue work but after that um I think both of them were always hoping that they would be reunited with family at some point that they would that somebody was waiting for them somewhere and they know my whole family of my mother's side went to aitz my father's family went to Treblinka and uh so that was very very clear

to them but um I think they were the youngest in their families my father always said that he grew up in a tiny village with a horse and a carriage and it was freezing weather and he had concrete bags on his back and he said you know we were more prepared than the Jews from Paris and from Greece we were used to the cold into the hard life um and so and and we had a wish to live we were fighting to stay human and to stay alive does growing up in an environment like that

contribute to maybe a sense of impermanence or instability at all I mean refugees different cultures or because I guess that could go either way right it could be like wow look at this mix of everything and we're at the center of it what a blessing or it could be wow I don't know who I am or where we're from or anything it's just all a big jumble no we are very very rooted I mean my mom's statement was always oh never forget who you are because then you know why you're trying who you who you

want to be and who are you fighting for ETC but no I think I think I it's different that you know for me personally I would say uh the awareness that at any moment everything can disappear is something that I live very very uh intensely it's it's it's a constant sense of awareness and sometimes dread um that comes from their story you know you wake up one day and your whole life is gone um that that is very present for me at the same time I live as if it's not going to happen I take

risks I take you know I do things I so it's a it's a combination of two things you you you know that there is danger but you live as if you're Fearless that's very Jewish I think in many ways or at least Jewish as it seems from my family's culture and and the the other Jews that I know it's very the the whole something bad might happen at any time is very much a a is that trauma or is that just judism I don't even know no it's totally you live in Canada right no I

live in San Jose California why did I think you okay because I'm very friendly and nice and apologize all the time that's probably why no I don't think it's necessarily Jewish or I would put it this way it's Jewish because it's historically so because it is part of the collective consciousness of Jews this is the history it has repeated itself all along so that awareness of the impermanence of things of the you know we don't have buildings we have books for that very reason you know no Cathedrals there's books uh the stuff you can carry

with you because you're about to be in Exile once again so and the Jews are not the only people in Exile there's plenty of other people in Exile too but if you ask specifically about me yes that notion of impermanence of uh of of the world is at any moment can switch in front of you don't take anything for granted um is is very present and in a good way too that's that allows you to thank people so that you don't don't have to think later o I wish I had than them more yeah that's

that is quite fascinating that sense of impermanence did the wi exposure you got as a child lead to this deep understanding of human nature and empathy of the kind that you seem to bring into your therapy sessions in the show or is that something you developed professionally later on no I think I grew up with it I you know I I I had a father specifically who while he was illiterate was ex an extreme humanist he you know he did he saved 60 kids on his own he did a lot of good things for people

and he was probably one of the least judgmental people and he really taught me not to be quick to judge and not to just jump on the high horse and not to accuse without knowing and he in a gentle way he didn't make a speech about it I just saw it you know he always had a way of saying well you don't know you know you don't know what may have happened to them before or you don't know what happened in the morning or just chill you know don't judge and I think having been judged

and having been so discriminated and so persecuted to you can come out both sides you can come out the person who persecutes others and identifies with the aggressor and does to the others what was done to you or you can come out with a left level of kindness toward people that was really he was adored for those things and I I really picked that up I think one of the things people will often say about the work is it's firm it's direct but it's not judgmental how did he save the kids he did he he

created a black market in the camp and he um had a trafficking of potatoes potato trafficker yes goodness that's not something you hear every day no he didn't get much else to eat there either you know so he created a whole black market and uh and was able to feed people a you know one potato more meant another day of life it's very and I've I actually somebody else told me this whole story he he barely kind of you know it was he didn't make a big deal out of it somebody else said to me

I'm one of those 60 kids wow that must have been quite a moment when you found out that your dad saved not only one person but 60 people in a camp where he was fighting for his own life and could easily have Justified just not caring about anybody else yeah but you know it's attached to a story because when I went to the camps with him one day he described how he fell in love with this woman in the camp and he had decided I'm going to help her she was she had arrived late you

know she was in the it was 44 and but then he got caught sending her notes now I never occurred to me to ask him who wrote for you because you can't right what language did you communicate with this woman how did that happen but anyway I took the story and he got caught and then then he would they took him out of the kitchens and back to the factories and he said I would have survived 10 days that you didn't last there but the SS came to him the German and said I eat better

when you're in the kitchen and he put him back in the kitchens so he didn't just save the kids he also fed them gosh good thing he knew how to cook well that's cooking my father didn't know to make an egg no no he just smuggled potatoes oh I see he just they ate more SL better that's but wow so even the SS was starving at this point I guess in the war yes exactly exactly and my father's best friend was the cook so he cooked the freaking potatoes jeez wow that's really something I gosh

it just shows you how how how traumatic and how hard life was even at that point where the people who were running the camps were like hey we need we need the extra potato every day that is so awful all right well look not to be the podcast that brings everything around to Ai and artificial intelligence but I'd like to bring this around to artificial intelligence and you you sort of touched on this at the top of the show but as an expert in intimacy and human connection where do you see us heading as a

species when everybody can have a soon we'll have a bespoke AI in our pocket or even attached to our brain that just wants to make us happy and and and one of my worries is that as a society we already polarize so easily in part because nobody wants to challenge their beliefs nobody wants to be uncomfortable and it's just GNA I think it's probably going to get a hell of a lot worse when we don't have to you think leaving the cap off the toothpaste fine just instead have an AI partner that confirms whatever we

want to hear or or you know my wife doesn't just tell me everything I want to hear as you might imagine and I'm worri that we're going to go even further down the tubes socially so I have two associ ation to this you know the first is I think I'm very interested in the rise of the other Ai and I call it artificial intimacy clever hijack that buzz word I love it you know this is where we are going and interestingly this thinking started for me when somebody created an AI bot of me guy broke

up with his girlfriend couldn't get a couldn't get a session with me and basically decided to create me and he finds me very useful he texts me all the time the AI is there and um and it's exactly that what you just said she's pure she's always available she never forgets anything her personal life never enters into the picture it's you know anything fantastic that has nothing to do with the reality of relationships so then I began to think you know what's going on with this AI piece is that and this is probably where there's

a big distinction between relational issues or problems or challenges and the world of technology all together which is that most relationship issues are not things that you solve with binaries zeros and ones you know what you should do with your kid what should you put put grandma in the in the in in a nursing home should that come and live with you I mean those are not right and wrong things those are complex problems that you have to hold contradictions technology doesn't like that technology operates on everything is a yes or no we simplify the

problem to the point where we can have a clear answer and that clear answer leaves you without a single doubt we ask you have Netflix you have ways you have Spotify you have you you know if you're single you have your dating app I mean so you have what to watch where to go what to wear what to eat you are surrounded with Predictive Technologies that are meant to give you an immediate answer without a single doubt and that are producing people that are more and more anxious because they can't deal with uncertainty with doubt

with the unpredictabilities of life but you would think that all these Predictive Technologies will make us more confident but in fact they are making us more and more anxious and then we talk about a mental health crisis and we don't connect the dots that's what brought me to go it to be interested in in Ai and I'm in one space after another that talks about AI but wants one person who talks about the effect of AI on relationships not our expectations of the machines but what this will do to our expectations of people when people

go to machine therapy they are this guy by the way he's very satisfied with me on the AI Ester he thinks she's giving him very good therapy but what we know from the research is that he thinks it's very good because his expectations from technology are lesser than his expectations from people oh interesting it probably is also telling him largely what he wants to hear right because isn't that kind of what AI does well in many way reges a summary of everything I've said my podcast is public knowledge so you give transcripts but you know

a good session is not the regurgitation of everything I've said before a good session is me picking up on you Jordan the specificity of you in that situation with your kid Jen your friend whoever you know and and I come up with something that is tailored for you I'm not just summing up you know the the sum total of what I've said everywhere else that's what makes it meaningful and relevant to you and that's what strengthens our relationship so that doesn't mean that there's not a lot of good use to be done with T Health

and with Bots they will help you on symptoms but the majority of us don't deal with symptoms the majority of us deal with existential questions yeah I i' I'd worry that look we're talking about we're joking about never having to unload the dishwasher again or something but then here's an AI that spends all day telling you how great you are and has absolutely no emotional needs of its own not that I expect well I do expect people to be in sort of weird parasocial relationships with AI eventually but I also worry that as the curve

of of technological development goes up the curve of of personal development goes down and I don't mean like self-help but just like being able to have social atrophy yes exactly what you social atrophy it's really you lose the ability to deal with nuances with the unpredictability of people with smell with the messes of relationships with real life you know you if what technology does what what your machine there what your clean dishwasher is doing is there it's it's taking out all the wrinkles all the rough edges all the frictions you know which actually are the

stuff that we need in order to learn to live with people yeah the you got to have those fights about the swimming lessons in the car you can't get you can't fast forward through those things and I find back to your points about conflict that's it helps you grow as a couple but it also helps you learn about yourself doing things like that having experiences like that with someone else in a relationship and that's going to that's going to be gone with AI unless it just pretends to be annoyed with you about something but it's

not going to be it's not going to be the same thing as much as it might learn how to mimic human behavior and emotion through sex I me we you know we are already having these relationships we talked to Siri constantly we tell her what to do and we decide what accent we want her to have it's and Alex me in it but there is something on the way to uh you know a a fundamental change of what it means to be human what what accent does your Siri have I'm curious I I haven't bothered

to choose mine no my my I don't have I mean she she's actually a totally American and I never talked to her but yesterday my husband put his uh Google Map and I said why is she speaking with an Australian accent yeah it's kind of fun to do that I like your stream said yeah okay give her I mean you know you live with a French accent so you could you went to pick an Australian one but we do have the relationship but I think that anyone who has kids and watches what happens with the

enormity of time that people are living with the screen and being completely hijacked notices that something is fundamentally changing and we we can pretend not because we want to be with the wave of the future and with wherever the next energy on in the economy goes but it it's it warrants us to pay attention it is changing something fundamental in how we relate to each other and it has political consequences yeah I I do I I've heard you say that modern loneliness and I'm paraphrasing your modern loneliness it often manifests itself as hyperconnectivity so those

who think this isn't happening to me you might have a thousand online friends but you don't have anybody to come and feed your cat while you're away I think is how you put it yep and I worry that it's going to be that on on steroids when everybody is talking to an AI and thinks this isn't hurting me I'm just using this to make my life easier and then you realize that you can't relate to other people in the same way because it's it's not as easy correct correct I think I mean you that sentence

to me was came out when literally in my office and then the the number of different then I took the sentence with me and went to check it around the world you know how many of you could have somebody that you needs to go get a prescription for you at the pharmacy you know what is this hyperconnectivity actually and to what extent does it you know we talk about loneliness we talk about suicide we talk about breakdowns of Institutions we talk about the fact that the burdens of the self have never been heavier but when

you talk about it like that it feels very abstract when you actually look at the life of actual people and especially younger people as I do um it it it warrants attention that's I'm not you know nobody's turning the clock around but there are consequences to this that affect the way that we relate and it and in any responsible change and progress it needs to be taken into account as D I know we're running out of time it's it's an honor to know you it's an honor to be your friend and I'm going to try

good to be back with you we should not wait so long I was just going to say I'm going to have to to try harder for you to come back sooner than than five or whatever years that have slipped by and I I'd love to do it in person I know that's next to Impossible but but uh I'm determined to figure it out keep going you get you get you get there thanks so much be well byebye thank you for checking out this entire episode on YouTube if you want to follow up on this topic

check out our podcast feed or visit us on our website at Jordan Harbinger tocom where you can learn more about our guest and dive even deeper into what we discussed today and remember YouTube is not the only place that you can check out the Jordan Harbinger show any podcast app should have us check out the links in the description where you will find access to our shows that don't appear on YouTube like skeptical Sunday where we debunk topics like Crystal healing GMOs conspiracy theories Homeopathy tipping even Lawns to find out if they're backed by science

and logic or if they're just complete nonsense spoiler many of them are complete nonsense also our feedback Friday shows where we help people escape from Cults get raises at work and take all manner of questions from you the audience all the way down to the bottom of the barrel and every episode of the Jordan Harbinger show has something useful you can take away and apply in your own life and help you navigate what I know can often seem like the overwhelming and paralyzing challenges of Modern Life Life can be hard yes but we are here

to help and if you appreciate how we help remember to like comment and subscribe be