Tom Campbell: How Do We Leave The Simulation? Consciousness Beyond The Virtual Reality

[Music] Tom the first time we spoke we covered so many different topics and your Theory of Everything is very fascinating before we start I mean this time we're going to go into a lot of the Practical significance and and what it can open the doors to uh before we begin though would you like to just give a brief summary of what we discussed I'll definitely put a link to the 3 plus conversation below as well okay well let me uh uh say to your listeners that if they haven't listened to what we did last time

which means your your what do we call that round one or or uh whatever uh if they haven't listened to that they really need to listen to that first because we're not going to go back through all of that uh defining Bas the basics of the model because that that took us what uh three hours or something yeah time hours yeah so we're not going to do all that again so if if you hear things that we say today that just don't seem to make sense they seem to be kind of off the- wall it's

because you missed you know something that that would explain them and make them seem rational and logical so don't just throw it away if you if you uh don't quite understand you know where we're coming from or if we sound like we're making things up it really does have a logical Foundation underneath of it so I tell that to your readers a a very short summary of the model is that it's based on an assumption that Consciousness exists and that's really the only assumption that I have Consciousness exists now the model uh what I do

to make the model is I start with the with the simplest form of Consciousness which would Consciousness i' Define as awareness with a choice okay so a simplest awareness with a choice would be an awareness that could decide whether is in state a or state B because it was only in state a then it wouldn't have any choice but because there's two states it's got a choice it can be in state one or state two or a or b or one or zero you know however you want to to say that so that defines the

smallest piece of Consciousness is awareness with a choice it only has to choices one or two and from that we let it evolve and how does Consciousness evolve it evolves by lowering its entropy Consciousness is an information system what you're conscious of what you're aware of you know you're aware of things and then you get to make choices right so what you're aware of is the data your five senses gives to you close off all your five senses and you are just aware only that you exist you're aware that you're aware and nothing else you

can't see hear smell taste feel anything else so all of that awareness that you have is basically a data you know is data that you get from your senses your senses are just data collectors and your body is a data sensor platform right so we get to we come to the conclusion that Consciousness is really an information system it's about information think of an information system where all the um all the bits in it are all random you know random ones random zeros if you want to think in terms of binary uh like our computers

so they're all they're all random well if they're random there is no information that's the very definition of no information is that everything's random randomness carries no information so so the way you create information is by ordering some of those bits and then that order whatever that ordering is that ordering then can stand for something it can be you know a symbol for something else you know you can build on that it could just be a number number one the number two you know the number six the ordering is uh just something that the system

finds interesting and the more order it can produce within that randomness the more information there is so how does an information system evolve it evolves by lowering entropy because entropy is a measure of disorder so when you start with random and you order it you're lowering the entropy so that's a that's a big part of this theory that you have to understand so this Consciousness system now is going to evolve and if it can have two states well it can have series of States you can have a a one and a one and then a

zero and a zero or a one one and a zero and a one and a zero or it can make up as much as that it as it needs because if it's aware that means also that it has memory it's aware of things and not just this moment nothing else ever it's a you know it's a it's aware of things uh as time goes by so it has memory so now it can make any kind of strings of ones and zeros you know with it within it memory okay now it [Music] uh it's evolving further

and it it runs into lots of patterns of patterns of and it it it creates Time by taking a one and a zero and just alternating that one Z One 0 one0 regularly and that called that's called a metronome and it it creates time well I shouldn't say that way time's already there but it creates regular time you not just kind of preoral time that things change somehow or sometime but Prim you know ordered time regular time that's measured in beats 0 one 01 so once has regular time it can also make sequences eventually it

runs out of uh uh its evolutionary space because it's just one monolithic thing the solution is break itself into pieces those pieces are you and I pieces of this larger Consciousness system LCS I call it larger Consciousness system so we're just a subset a virtual machine inside a big Mainframe if you like okay so that's who we are and we all have free will because if we didn't have free will then there wouldn't be any point in breaking it apart you just break into a bunch of parts that are exactly you know there's no new

information there but if you give each part free will now you have a bunch of indep dependent players and when you have a bunch of independent players what they can do together what they can create together is much bigger than what just one player is going to create by themselves one player is limited to just what that one player can think of lots of players can think of different things and eventually as time goes on all these players end up very different from each other that spreads because their experiences are not exactly the same therefore

they're not exactly the same which means they start looking at issues from different angles from different points of view which is then valuable in what the hole can create all right so that's basically the system um we are in individuated units of Consciousness one of those individual piece the system was not uh again had another Plateau let's put it that way had another plateau of growing up so it it needed a a better more consequential virtual reality it created the first virtual reality which was just communication protocols okay and so it could communicate with its

little IND you know individuated units and they could communicate with each other and that was a virtual reality a virtual reality in a information system is basically a rule set if you define a rule set and you can Define initial conditions too if you want but if you define a rule set that forms a virtual reality everybody that's in that virtual reality has to abide by that rule set first virtual reality communication protocols next virtual reality had to be something that was more than just a big chat room which is what they had with the

first virtual reality was this monster chat room so that you can't grow very much with that the choices you make don't matter a whole lot so now what do we mean what is it about these choices well the choices you make will reflect that quality of your Consciousness which is the same as that level of entropy of your Consciousness so you need to make choices that lower the entropy of your Consciousness because the whole system is evolving by lowering you know the entropy of its Consciousness indeed that's why we're here because we're part of the

system strategy for lowering its own entropy that's why it had to create us okay so then here we are you and I tev and Tom and we are avatars our bodies are avatars our Consciousness is the player is a piece of Consciousness an individuated unit of Consciousness who is playing this human Avatar the human Avatar is this next you know represents this next virtual reality I was talking about okay how does how does that happen does the system program a big virtual reality like ours no that's way too hard and it wouldn't be it wouldn't

hold together it wouldn't be consistent if it was just programmed so it's evolved it started with a set of initial conditions and you'll you'll kind of see the big bang in this a set initial conditions which is a ball of plasma you know high pressure high temperatures a rule set like gravitation and and you know forces and so on the rule set we call physics basic physics then it punches the Run button and lets the initial conditions change according to the rule set and then it just lets that go and evolve however it does and

we end up with our universe and eventually us and the whole point of this was to provide a new virtal reality where Consciousness had more consequential choices choices that would help it lower its entropy by bigger steps than just the tiny little steps that it was able to get out of a big chat room so that was the point of it and then we uh we individuated units of Consciousness we we partition off a piece of ourself which I call a free will awareness unit and that's the piece that logs on to play a human

that is evolved inside this big virtual reality that that the system has evolved for us to play in and make choices in all right now as everybody knows the choices we have here aren't trivial you know these choices are life and death and very important to us you know we we uh you have spouses we have children you know we have to eat we need to find shelter there's things that are are very critical to us even existing there and not and not dying and therefore being thrown out of the virtual reality so here we

are pieces of Consciousness you know my individuated unit of Consciousness is basically having this conversation with your individuated unit of Consciousness using two avatars you know your body my body so that's the way it works now that's simple enough but there are a lot of logical consequences of what I've just said you know there's you can say okay I follow you you know Consciousness is fundamental everything else is derived out of Consciousness our reality our universe our physical universe is a virtual reality created by Consciousness in order to serve the Consciousness systems need for evolution

because like anything you can evolve and continue to evolve more or you can de evolve and eventually all your bits are random and you don't have an information system anymore so it's basically evolve or die you can't stay in the middle because that's un that's unstable you can't just hang in the middle between the two you can dither around in the middle but eventually you're going to end up de evolving or evolving because the more you evolve the easier it is to evolve more the more you de evolve the easier it is to De evolve

more those two things are both slopes that you that you slide down so just trying to maintain a balance between them well maybe could do that for a while but it's not a good long-term strategy eventually you're going to end up on one slope or the other and you know you're going to you're going to you're going to either die or continue on so the system wants to live it wants to continue on so that's another thing that motivates it so it wants to lower its entropy now lots of logical consequences which is what we're

going to talk about today I think logical consequences so that only took me 15 minutes so that was good yeah I did actually really I did actually really well there funny thing Tom is is that our conversation the last time was three and a half hours but we could have gone on for much longer I think the only thing that stopped us was the fact that I had to stop because it was past midnight and our times differences are so vast so had that not been the case I think we could have spoken for hours

it could have went on for five hours sure so now we'll get into some of the lo you know the the basically logical consequences but let me just say the obvious one is that you know Consciousness is non-physical to this reality well that's just the nature of a virtual reality if you're an elf in the World of Warcraft the computer that's Computing that is non-physical to the elf you know to that World of Warcraft world the uh the computer has to be someplace else it can't be inside the World of Warcraft it can't be part

of that virtual reality it has to be outside the virtual reality and when it's outside the virtual reality then if you're a character in the virtu reality it's non-physical and the player which makes all the choices for the Avatar that too has to be you know outside of the physical reality so what that tells us is that Consciousness is nonphysical this is a virtual reality uh consciousness is the only thing that is fundamental the only thing that's real and information is the only thing that can create something real information and Consciousness creates reality those two

things together information given to a Consciousness creates reality okay and so then I would go on to say there's nothing more real than information that's as real as it gets information you know so what are the consequences well there's lots of consequences to this okay so now we're to individuated units of Consciousness actually two free will awareness units having a having a chat with each other and this body only has to be only has to be rendered for you to see it and look and see that I'm here it doesn't have to be rendered that

there's oxygen in the room because you can't see oxygen it doesn't have to be rendered that I have a brain or a heart or a circulatory system or a liver or anything else none of that needs to be rendered the only thing that has to be rendered is my exterior and your exterior and the motion the things that we we do okay so the rendering isn't as big a problem as one might think like any other virtual reality you only you only render what the player can see or feel or you know smell or taste

you know you've got your sensors you only have to render what the other players can sense okay so that's one thing so our body is a virtual body there is no brain it's a virtual brain the brain doesn't remember or process anything the brain's not even rendered you know unless somebody cuts your head open then it has to render a brain because now that's something you can see or smell and taste you know taste that that's gross anyway the avatars of neurosurgeons probably see the most rended brains in that case yes they probably do so

none of those things are actually rendered we are pieces of Consciousness now that means that we're Immortal Consciousness doesn't die body dies but Consciousness is the player when your Elf dies you don't have to quit the game forever you go get back in the game well we do too and the reason we have to get back in the game is evolving lowering our entropy requires that we change who we are we have to make ourselves a lower entropy being it's not about our Behavior it's about who we are it's not about acting kind say it's

about being kind and those two things are very different so it's not easy so when you drop out of the game because your body dies uh or you get run over by a truck or something happens uh well you have to get back in the game so you get another you your iuoc you know takes that old partition down reintegrates all that the part of that computer puts a new petition down and starts to log on to some other being and when it does that it logs on with no intellectual data only with the amount

of quality of Consciousness that that that iuoc has learned up to that point so the whole point of this game is to learn to grow up to lower your entropy and I'll just because we did it last time I'll just say that we can logically show that the optimal way for a information the optical way for a social system to evolve and we are a social system now there's lots of us interacting with each other with free will that optimal way is that those interactions be cooperative that these interactions those interactions are based on caring

on helping on you know positive things not negative things so I call that the love side so our whole point of being here in this in this virtuality is to lower our entropy and the way we do that is to care about each other to cooperate to connect and yes that's not just me trying to feel warm and fuzzy that is a lot logical conclusion you it's one of those one of those logical uh conclusions from what I I told you but you can find that last time's stuff we won't do that again so that

gives us purpose what's our purpose here it's to grow up it's to lower our entropy which means it's to become love to care to cooperate to be you know ask the question what can I do how can I help rather than what's in it for me and you know how can I get get the most by doing the least you know that's that's going the wrong way that's on the fear side which is the opposite of Love Is the is the fear side it's not love versus hate it's love versus fear hate is just a

uh an offshoot of of uh fear so in any case that's just one of the logical consequences but I'm I'm pointing those out because they're kind of the big things and we're going to get into the more detailed things later so you are a piece of Consciousness and you are Immortal and you have multiple lifetimes but each time you only take your quality with you into that next life and not your intellect and there's a lot of good logical reasons that it has to be that way so that's enough I think we kind of have

the basic thing who Am I who are you why are we here what the system was made of and uh and uh we'll just start off fresh from from that point so let's so for all of those who need to watch that they should and then obviously read your book your Trilogy Theory of Everything get a deep understanding and then you can come into this conversation with a bit more context now this Theory unlike other idealists um you even mentioned Bernardo Castro Donald Hoffman Etc there are many idealists out there at this point but your

your theory you're able to touch on topics that they tend to sway away from and they don't like to talk about outof body experiences near death uh sort of paranormal things so anything that's considered paranormal in that in that sense this Theory obviously allows you to touch on topics that they don't like to and I think let's go through a lot of them you already briefly touched on death and and this process of almost like a reincarnation you're just sort of rebooting into a different Avatar let's touch on what happens after death and along those

lines how does your theory explain sort of reincarnation within this context and also near-death experience okay um well death is part of the rule set here remember we had initial conditions in a rule set and the way the rule set works is we grow old and the body dies or is a dangerous place really to be we may get uh you know killed some other way we may die some other way can get a disease you can get uh you know killed by force whether it's being run over by something or whether you're in a

fight or whatever so the human body is going to die and really that's a good thing because what we're doing is trying to lower our entropy and grow and as we get old we kind of get that b there done that attitude and growing gets a little slower we kind of get settled in our ways and we think we know just about everything that there is to know and we're happy with what we know and we don't care much about what we don't know and that means the learning kind of get slower and slower and

slower so what happens when that you know when you get an inefficiency like that is well you need to reboot you need to say well okay we've got enough out of that character we're not going to get much more out of them so let's go to another uh because when you're very young you're you know you're you're very much open to everything because you don't know yet all the things that are impossible so everything's kind of possible when you're young and a lot of those things that people will tell you are impossible really aren't impossible

this those are just beliefs that those people have you see that's how we make progress you know we grow we do things that are better so okay let's say you are an individual and your your body dies when your body dies then that Free Will awareness unit is done right the free real awareness unit was just that piece of the individuated unit of consciousness that was logged on to play all the choices for that body make all the choices so that Free Will awareness unit now that partition comes down and it starts to reintegrate with

the individual unit of Consciousness the individual itself they're awareness goes from I'm here I'm alive to oh where am I what's what's going on you find yourself not in the old reality anymore but some other reality at that point there is a another virtual reality called the transition reality now I just made that name up because that's basically what it does and that's a reality that's been designed to help people transition from one you know experience to another I call those experience packets one experience packet to another experience packet other people call that reincarnation i'

like to avoid all the words and terminology that has to do with anybody's religion or other ideas because now a lot of people hold those ideas real sacred they get upset if you say things about them that they don't agree with and it just creates a lot of trouble so I make up my own terms so we're talking about uh experience packets that you that you have and just also another thing is I know you you often say that you also don't want this to be entwined with theology you want people to actually you sometimes

name these things relatively silly names you sometimes like to actually do that on purpose yes I do that that on purpose so that people won't get that serious about it I don't want to start a new theology what I'd like to do is help correct an old theology you know that would be better um I think that even though you don't want to start one it's probably going to happen I hope not I hope not I I try very hard not to make that happen like you say the the uh entity that's kind of in

charge of this part of the of the uh non-physical space and consciousness you I named him the big cheese just because I thought that was funny enough that people wouldn't start to get down on their knees and you know pray to the big cheese is just too silly to to to do that so I uh I make up these names but a lot of people uh who do understand my VTO very deeply and they're also religious then they do see the larger conscious system as God and for them it's like wow great now I know

really what God is and where God comes from and so it it solves a lot of problems for them because the you know the the God thing is is all kind of magic and and uh you know assumptions it doesn't have much solidity to it from a logical Viewpoint well now suddenly it's logical and it makes sense so there are people who you know think that the larger conscious system is god well it is the creator we are a piece of it you know it we're made in its image we're a piece of Consciousness you

know you can fill in a lot of those those little blanks and uh it works rather well so in any case uh people do that I don't I avoid the word God because again it comes with all kinds of emotional energy and there just isn't any point in ever arguing with emotion or arguing with Believers those are arguments that that have no resolution and never converge so there's just no point to have them so I try to avoid them by not using words that will start those kind of arguments so anyway it's just the larger

Consciousness system now I one time did sit down with uh a couple of theologians they both had their phds in Theology and I asked them to say what are all the attributes of God and you write them down and they did they wrote them all they wrote down about six seven things that they said were the attributes of God and uh all of those attributes applied directly to the larger Consciousness system okay but these attributes were not denominational they weren't dogmatic things they were just general things you see and so in that case you know

the LCS and God kind of are are a matchup but there's a lot of people that have a lot of of individual kind of dogmatic things wrapped around religion and I don't go there because MBT my big toe has nothing that you need to believe matter of fact belief is the enemy in my in my scheme of things if you believe something that belief will limit your ability to find out for sure what's going on you just believe it you stop asking questions so you know in MBT it's believe nothing be skeptical of everything and

that includes everything I say too you have to be skeptical all of it if it's not your if it's not your experience then it's not really your truth so you know I implore everyone to be skeptical and find out for yourself whether there's truth in this or not and there's many ways you can do that so you know and I I give people tools to help them do that you can find them at my website so that's let's let's go back to the death Tom just okay so you die you end up in the transition

reality now the transition reality the first thing that it wants to accomplish when somebody who's just died shows up it wants to make them relax and let go and not be so hysterical about am I in heaven or I'm in hell or what's going on here you know so mostly it's just to comfort and to get people to let go now the thing that helps people Letting Go from the past experience is that their their past life that they just exited starts to fade just like dreams fade the instant after they died they remember every

detail of it you know a minute later it's kind of fuzzy you know three or four minutes later they only got the highlights and you know by five minutes later it's kind of you know yeah I remember having that dream but you don't relate to it that much anymore you know that's the way dreams are and that's the way your past life is so they just want you to kind of be still and connect and be happy and be positive just long enough for all those those past life memories to disappear like a dream what

why do you think that happens well what that why that happens is because all of that past life stuff brings a lot of fear with it there's a lot of fears there and trying to deal with all of that when there's really nothing you can do about it it's over right oh I left my children who's going to take care of them oh I did this oh I did that you know oh you know am I in heaven or I'm in hell am I going to be punished forever so you you have all this junk

that people are struggling with are afraid of and they're fearful because this is the unknown now so they're in the unknown and people are kind of afraid of the unknown so you have to kind of comfort them as they show up and the way this system does that is somebody you know it's like the Walmart greeter I don't know if that makes any sense to you in South Africa but you know here we have these these big stores and there somebody stands inside the door welcome to Walmart you know yeah what are you looking for

oh Hardware is over there you know that kind of a person so you kind of have the greeters there that uh welcome people to say everything's fine you're doing great yeah you're going to you're going to every you know you're going to like it here whatever just things to make people oh really and they kind of look around and everything's clean and looks nice and then if the people who are a little more worried the ones that have more fear then they get to see relatives oh look there's your Uncle Fred that died 10 years

ago you know he's he's come here to greet you well it's not really their Uncle Fred that's just a um that's just what a a representation of Uncle Fred from the database and we'll we later we'll talk about what database and why do we have a database and and so on but uh it's not really your Uncle Fred your uncle Fred's gone off to some other other experienced packets you know he's he's not hanging around just waiting for you to die so he can say hello yeah that just doesn't make any sense so uh Uncle

Fred and Aunt Susie and lots of people whoever you know who's died you know they come and they tell you what a wonderful place it is and you'll do fine and and they greet you and you relax and say ah well this seems like a nice place I guess I'm not going to hell I guess this is going to be okay and then you relax and that's the whole point of it if sometimes uh depending on your level of stress they will just tell you to do things that are just busy work in order to

get you to just pass some time by and relax and let go so often they'll say well okay yeah we have you right here what's your name you know Joe Smith oh yeah Joe we've been waiting for you you know go go over there see that that lady over there uh go see that line she's processing people and go stand in that line and when she gets to you she'll tell you what to do next well there is no point the lady's not doing anything at all she's just creating a line so that people have

something to do for a while and they don't get panicked or upset or okay what's next what am I supposed to do you know is this you know this is the Eternal you know do I need know how to play a harp you know what's going on here so they it just gives them something to do it takes up their time and U if they're still stressed by the time they get to the end front of the line well she'll tell them to go over now she has to see the guy over there you know

he's he handles people like you you know it's just buying more time well eventually people get over it they forget entirely about their past life they don't really have any remember of it they don't have any of the cares or the worries about their children or you know what happened to the you know they had a wreck in a car you know did am I the only one that didn't survive or what you know all that stuff just kind of goes away and they're assured that everything's fine oh yeah you're children are fine you know

you know that kind of thing and eventually they'll get to a point where they will get kind of bored and they're Wonder well what's next okay so what do I do I'm been standing around here for a long time let's go to wherever the action is and somebody will talk to you about the next life you're going to have and the kind of things you should work on and the kind of things you didn't do very well last time that you need to work on and if you can't understand that they may give you a

little Life review of it's like you sit down and watch this movie of your past life and it's the movie of you making very poor choices and you'll skip from one poor choice to the next and you know being rude being being unpleasant being self-centered you know all these things you're trying to outgrow cuz remember we're trying to grow toward love and you'll look at that and you go oh yeah I guess I do need to you know work on that and then you you get another you get offered another place to go when you're

ready and you can always say no I don't like that one they'll tell you a little about it and if they'll give you a different one you you know so and you can kind of say well what I'd like next time I want to be Filthy Rich I want to be born into a family that's got a billion dollars in a bank and uh you know because last time all those mistakes I made I just made them because I was poor it wasn't me you know I didn't it's not that my quality of Consciousness isn't

good it's just that I had a really bad situation well you know they point out that that's they show you this this past life review where that really wasn't true it wasn't so much that you were poor it just as you were negative but they may give you that and you may be born into a family that has a billion dollars and typically you don't do much better you know you become a monster you know you become you know you you run over a lot of other people because now you have power and you're still

nasty and not doing making good choices and so on and you may de evolve if you make enough bad choices and with all that power and not much growth you're likely to De evolve if you've got that much power so you'll come back out from that and you'll be two or three steps behind where you were last time because you've made a lot of terrible choices and then you thought oh being rich wasn't such a good idea you know that that set me back because I could really mess things up and make a lot of

entropy uh you know raise entropy a lot with all that power so anyhow this is the process of learning so you always have free will you can always always say no you can always wait there are other places besides this virtual reality that you can go to but most people just come back to the same one because they already know how it works here you go to a different one and it's a completely different ball game so most people come back to the ones that they're used to so anyway that's kind of what happens when

you die then you go back you get another body right the your iuoc puts another petition down creates another free will awar unit that just has the level of of growth that you've made up to this point so your your growth is cumulative you keep growing and then you go off and now you're an infant again you may you may go into that you may log on to that fetus even before it's born because as long as there are things to trigger your senses then you're getting information so you know maybe it's just light and

feeling and you're in a squishy fluid sack and you know maybe you can do a little punching on the inside of mom or whatever you know but you you can hear voices hear music you get a sense of attitudes and feelings you know are people nice and happy or people sad and angry so all of that stuff will affect you somewhat and then you're born and so on life goes until you die and then the whole thing recycles again so that's basically the way life works if you're very frightened when you die it'll take a

little longer for you to process through the you know relax and and get over it phase uh if you're not if you're an old hand at that you've been you've been around through the process enough times that you need it then then you skip steps you don't you don't have to go stand in a line or do any of that kind of stuff because that's not really important you know you go straight to the to the place where you start thinking about what you need to do next what are the kinds of things that you

failed to do well last time and how can you work on those and and uh set your mind to kind of focusing on those things so that when you have your next Incarnation you you'll tend to be aware of those things anyhow that's the way you know life and death is and it's the same Consciousness just multiple incarnations and we have to have a lot of variation in our in our Incarnation sometimes you need to be male sometimes female sometimes you know all the races you know white and black and yellow and green and pink

and whatever there are you have to experience all of those various cultures because all of that gives you different perspectives and different choices to make you don't want to just get a life where you make the same kind of choices all the time you know you're not going to grow up much from that you need lives that that give you an array of different sorts of choices and different circumstances which is why why you don't take your intellect along because if you did all you do is try to gain the system oh well what choice

should I make here oh yeah I should I should do this well that's the acting kind instead of the being kind that's not going to help you we don't want you to try to gain the system you know you you need to act out of who you are sincerely out of the authentic you has to make the choice well the way the authentic you has to make the choice is that all the intellectual part is gone so what's left is the authentic you so that's why you shouldn't you know that you don't want all that

knowledge not only that it would be ridiculously cumbersome if you were aware oh let's see I've had 20,000 wives and about 60,000 children and I loved every one of them dearly they were my whole reason for living and and you know you can't keep track of all of that stuff because you're not just going to be two or three incarnations and now you're brilliant you know everything you you're going to do this thousands of times so you need to let go of the past start out with an authentic expression of who you are then you

have authentic choices and you can learn something from authentic choice you can't game the system because you don't have any information to game it with so that's why there no users manual there's no that we don't understand all this when we come back it's uh it's better that we don't we're more authentic and we have a higher probability of success if we just come in and we have to make choices that Express who we are and then we have to live with those consequences so one other thing I'd say about that that if you are

growing up lowering your entropy you tend to have a happy life you tend to find satisfaction peace um you know your life is very good you smile a lot if you are not growing up if you are mostly in the fear category and self-centered and fearful your life is miserable it's always a struggle everything seems to go wrong there's always the next hurdle that's blocking you that's in front of you you blame everything on everybody else except yourself you know that's the life you live and it's miserable it's uh it's painful so it's in everybody's

interest to actually try you know to to level up in this game by by being kind and being helpful and being caring and getting rid of that self-centered stuffff you know get rid of that ego that's all about you make it about other people love is about other fear is about self So within that within that um gold directed framework where you constantly coming back um in order to fulfill this what happens when you actually truly do fulfill that and you reach that lowest entropic state where the person is now embodies love in that in

the sense that you're talking about well there's a couple of issues here one um it's true that the more you evolve the easier it is to evolve more so the steps you take tend to be bigger and bigger so you get there faster and faster uh as time goes on on the other hand on the other side of that coin is that the changes that you make are changes really of refinement you know if you're pretty good and you you've lost all those crass you know things you stop you know killing people you stop beating

your children you know and your wife you stop kicking the dog you know if you've got if you've kind of gotten over all those crash things well now you're refining something that is already pretty good and those refinements coming smaller and smaller increments so it's easier to learn more but what you're learning more now has to do with refining you know you're trying to lower entropy well one of The Facts of Life is entropy never goes to zero you can't ever get it to zero you can approach zero you can get asymptotic to zero in

math language but you never actually get to zero and you have to always work on it because if you don't put effort in to work on it if there's no energy put in then you start to Black backslide entropy just starts to rise up because you're not putting the effort to keep it down you know that's the second law of Thermodynamics you know that the systems that are not reversible you know systems that evolve and move and change if there's no energy put into them they automatically Decay everything has a shelf life everything decays even

a even a block of steel if you wait long enough it'll evaporate that steel block will get smaller and smaller and smaller until it's gone just like an ice cube you know you put an ice cube in a freezer and you let it sit there long enough the Ice Cube's gone you know it sublimates into water VAP that's just because entropy water vapor is a higher entropy State than ice you know so that's just the nature of reality and it's the nature of of Consciousness as well so you have to always be putting effort in

so you never get to the point where you say I'm done you know I'm gotten here you know my entrop is really really low I can't I can't lower it much more except by tiny increments so I quit well as soon as you quit your entropy starts going up again your your ego starts getting bigger you start feeling good about yourself oh I'm made it to the top I'm better than all those other people you see now all that's just ego talking that's not you know that's not high quality high quality you don't put yourself

above others you don't look down on other people you're not condescending all that's low quality not high quality so what you do instead is you decide that well what can I do to help it's not just about me you see if it's just about you and you've just been working on lowering your entropy and now you got it really low yay me well that's all about you what have you given back what how have you helped how have you helped everybody else succeed oh I haven't it's just all been about me well then you're not

that grownup you see you just think you're that grownup if it's all about you then you've got a lot to learn yet so that's the point so there really is no end you always can be helpful to others you can always incarnate back here in a situation and you don't have to be a big Guru or you know lead you know the masses to Salvation or something all you have to be is just a good person you know just somebody who's helpful and caring and happy and smiles just be a low enty person because just

by being that way you'll help other people become that way you will be a good example and you'll just people around you will make you they'll feel better when they're hanging out with you they all kind of feel better than not so you're you're a force to help them uh grow up so you come back and be part of the solution not part of the problem so there is no end to it now a lot of the religious theologies always you know they have ends to it because otherwise it's a hard cell if if you

tell people well what's what's the point they say and say well so you can can be helpful to others well you know when do I graduate when do I get done and if you say never you're doing this forever because you know you're you're an information system and we can always get better if just you and 10 people and you all care for each other that's nice but you need to care for everybody on the planet and all the dogs and cats too you know and everything you need to be take care of the planet

and its environment you know there's lots of things that are positive that you need to learn to do so there's no end to that you can always come back and teach and be helpful well that's a hard sale you know why would why would somebody want to pay their money into that collection plate you know when the other collection plate says oh yeah you know when you die if you do everything right and keep that collection plate full you'll go to heaven and that's it you'll just be happy and be perfectly uh you know content

forever well that's a easier sale oh that sounds good what I I donate a lot of money to the church and I'm in Forever um or like in the in Buddhism you return to the godhead okay you go up but you get to the point that then you just become a part of God and that's it but you see that's contrary to what the larger Consciousness did in the first place it had to break itself up into pieces so that there were these pieces that uh you know interacted with each other the idea everybody lowers

their entropy everybody gets up everybody returns to the godhead then what do you have you just move backwards A Long Way backwards now you have one you know one uh chunk of Consciousness where all the pieces have returned well it's very limited it'll start to De evolve rather quickly you know the point is that you've got billions of pieces that all have to learn to work together cooperative and caring for everybody well that's a harder thing to do you see and one monolithic thing can't do that it can just kind of care for itself but

that's kind of self-focused you know caring for other is a tough thing when you're the only thing around so it you end up de evolving so that's really headed in the wrong direction so I don't think that the joining the godhead is is really the the point unless the larger system has way too many I who sees out there and it like to you know like to cut the number down you know the number of seats in the game has gotten too large i' like to cut some down then some of those might just be

absorbed back into the LCS yes but uh not in general that's not the way that it's going to be that's not the point is not to go up and and become part of the deity it's to keep helping others see others you know unless you're the last one everybody else is everybody else has succeeded and you're the last one you know but it's not going to be that way there's always new coming in at the bottom people are having babies new new uh avatars are all the time and you need a someone needs to uh

you know just to keep this virtual reality going you know needs to play the part of those avatars or the system gets stuck playing all of them you know now they're they're not ioc's they're NPCs non-player characters because the the the server is playing the parts of all of those well now the whole system this whole entropy uh reduction trainer system is become inefficient you know it's starting to it's starting to outlive its usefulness so I don't think any of that's going to happen there's always going to be those who aren't as as far along

as you are and if you can help them then if you're grown up what you want to do is help them you don't want to quit and go play a harp on a cloud for eternity you want to be helpful you want to get back in the game and be part of the solution that's what you like doing that's what makes you happy so you're you're you're incarnated let's say and you go through this journey two logical scenarios can arise one is the information is is neither created nor destroyed in this in that sense but

let's say the information continues that means you have access to information from the previous Avatar's existence so that opens the door to talking to a past life or or seeing a past life at least and also the information also can perhaps intrude into the future perhaps into a near-death experience how would those two things occur well a near-death let's just jump to a near death and then we'll talk about the data because now you're touching on this database that I was talking about and I can explain why there is a database why there has to

be a database and uh how what that means to be able to access that's where Uncle Fred was the guy came to greet you you know he was basically a projection out of that database because everything we do think thought about doing but didn't doesn't matter every feeling all of that is part of a database and there's a reason why the system has to collect that data and I'll get into that later but an nde is basically somebody who is they say a near-death experience but the body maybe dies for a little bit and then

gets resuscitated so when I say dies I mean it it goes past the point of where life could be supported at that state that the physical thing in couldn't support life but it doesn't mean that that state can't be changed to where it can support life again so people get in the spot where they're dead for a little bit or if nothing else happened to bring them back they would be dead but something else happens and raises es their potential for life back up positive again and now they come back so they are out there

remember I said when you die you kind of come awake and you say oh where am I you what's going on here well they end up in that state in the H where am I and what's going on here and the way the system works is they start into the transition so they get a something positive maybe they see a light and you know the reason so it's like well the light says so come on we come here we've been waiting for you you're going to have a good time here you're really going to like

it you know it starts positive and most of the ndes are positive you know that's typically the way they are they'll see dead relatives they'll uh they'll have a an experience with the bright light that is nothing but love you know and they'll get consumed and connected to this well all that is is them experiencing the larger Consciousness system them experiencing Consciousness at its best you know at low entropy Consciousness and when they do that of course that's a life-changing experience when you do that you lose all the sense of I who you are and

you become one with everything and it's such a it's such a uh I don't know what to a profound experience that it changes people they see this light they they become part of it and then they're one with all and there's nothing but love they're just experiencing the system and how the system sees things and that's given to them just to show them kind of the heart or the core of what Consciousness is all about and then they pat him on the butt and send them back into the game you know it says you're not

going to you know you're not going to die go back back there and tell people about this so then it helps open other people's minds other people say oh wow you know that was that was amazing there must be something on that other side that does that because there's literally tens of thousands of these ndes and there's a lot of consistency you know in the stories they tell so if they were all just making it up on their own there wouldn't be that consistency so it kind of lends some credibility to the fact that there

is something else that this is not just a materialist reality that's a machine and everything that happens is you know random basically or determined and you know that's that's kind of a deadening concept not a you know not an opening up and enlivening concept you know well you're nothing you don't count for anything there is no purpose in your life you know so grab everything you can grab have a good time and that's what it's all about well when you go on that path where you're grabbing everything and just having a good time you end

up miserable because you're not you're being very self-centered you're not learning you're not growing and that life becomes empty and eventually unpleasant and you become depressed and you know that's not what it's all about so materialism kind of pushes people in the wrong direction you know greed is a good thing I'm grabbing everything I can grab because it doesn't matter anyway you know it's survival of the fittest and I got more money than you I must be more fit than you you know well that's nonsense that's not the way the way it works at all

but that's kind of where a materialist Viewpoint gets you so the system would like to sew some seed of it's not like that reality is bigger and more significant and more important and more beautiful than just a random machine where you you can do whatever you want cuz it doesn't matter anyway because there is no purpose you see so it goes out of its way to give people positive experiences and then send them back with a story to tell and it does these people write books and you know a lot of people get this and

they think well there must be something else going on you know because that guy was dead for 5 minutes and then they resuscitated his body and uh he has his big story to tell so he's kind of been there and seen it and come back to tell us about it so it's it's part of the way that the larger conscious system tries to help us grow and you know become love and understand there's a bigger picture so that's what's going on now some people who are extremely fearful the same ones that would take longer you

know they may take a while when they get to that transition reality to calm them down because they they know bad bad little girls and little boys and they're going straight to hell and it's going to be horrible and they believe that so they come in almost in a panic you know now they've died they they uh got run over by a truck didn't even have a priest or somebody uh you know absolve them of all their sins before they died and and uh so you have some of those they will have negative experiences because

that's what they expect so the experiences they're having are basically like dreams it's things that they're making up that reflect their beliefs and it just takes a while for them to get out of that and realize that no it's really not that way that's just you kind of you know going out and and living all the things you've been told and the beliefs and so on so a few people have that but most people don't most people aren't that what that um invested you know in their most people who are religious go because it's a

social thing it's where their friends are they meet they have dinners poot luck dinners together they go bowling you know they go skating they do things you it's a social club and you know they have to listen to the preacher preach but they only have pay attention because they're thinking about what they're going to do afterwards and and uh so on so most people claim to be a member of a religious faith but the great majority don't take it that seriously but some do and the ones that do if they haven't been very wonderful people

they start to feel very fearful when they die so that's really what the ndes are about it's an experience that people have and they have different experiences because the system doesn't just give everybody the same experience it would sound like oh I got they got that experience because they read the book of what somebody else did you know it's all just copycat it's just you know that's a part of the culture they're making all up the same thing so there's a lot of varied experiences individual experiences that that people have but you know you can

have that experience almost anytime you want all you have to do is go get a good meditation State get Consciousness and have an intention to connect with the larger system and there it is you've got it you can have that experience you can be absorbed into the light and be one with everything and feel that love and feel your connection to everything else that's not an experience you have to die or almost die to get it's available that's what the that's what the uh the Buddhists and the Hindus talk about you know their Nirvana they're

going to you know they have this this uh profound experience of love and positivity that's what they're talking about so it's it's not you don't have to die to do that all you have to do is learn to learn to let go yeah now that's their Enlightenment it's not that's not really Enlightenment that just means that they've learned to control their Consciousness to the point that they can let go and become one with things it's nice but it's not the end of the road what's really important is how kind and helpful are they other people

you can be very self-centered and get that experience you know it's not only the people who are almost near death that that aren't self-centered you can be very self-centered and still get to that experience and still have a long way to evolve but that's some of the differences you know that's religions create dogmas and beliefs and then they kind of work toward those beliefs so anyway uh I think that answers your question that's nde now what we're going to get to is the database so the database has to be created but it's created first as

a probable future database everything I say everything not not really meaning everything but let me just use that word everything that is possible to happen and the probability of each one of those possibilities okay so there's some event that'll happen Happ and maybe that event will has might go you know 20 different ways so those are all the possibilities now each one of those has a probability some are more probable than others you know if they're all equally probable then you know that's possible too but they all have probabilities now the reason that the system

has to know that about the probable future is that that's how it knows what the render next you see if this were a bottoms a bottom I shouldn't say bottoms that makes it a different thing if it's a bottom Up Bottoms Up is either drinking or or giving mooning somebody right it's it's one of those two things but bottom up means you start at the detail level and move back up toward you know the more fundamental level so it's it's it's that way so if you do that then you'd start with Elementary particles and you'd

take uh them and make atoms and then the atoms to make molecules and the molecules to make physical stuff so that would be you have to calculate that and physics and uh science in general is materialistic and therefore deterministic and they would tell you that if I had the the state of every particle in the universe then I can compute everything else forever because the physics just rules it's the rules of how things happen have to change so if I knew what everything was I just apply the rules and I'd know how everything had to

change and there is no free will there is no consciousness is yeah actually there is no time you know so they have to get rid of all those things because materialism is not logically compatible with any of those things you know it's only compatible with determinism so in any case this system isn't made that way that would be a huge inefficient way to run a a model of re of this reality trying to you know I mean how many particles you know we have we have like what three trillion cells or something just in one

body and each one of those cells has has probably trillions of trillions of trillions of atoms and and and you know Elementary each each atom has a whole bunch of Elementary particles and you I mean it just gets to be impossible to deal with that if you're trying to build something from the ground up it doesn't work so what works is that you have a rule set remember the rule set initial conditions in a rule set is what made the made the reality so you have that rule set and that rule set is mostly deterministic

with some probability included in it because some natural processes are are random and you have that rule set so you can create models of things look at their prob ability and then use that probability model to actually run the simulation and the best example I can I can give of that is a is a cannon firing cannonballs and I'll do this real quickly is that if you had to compute where the Cannonball landed from the bottom up it'd be too hard to do you'd have to deal with every molecule of the Canon every molecule of

the wick every molecule the powder and you know all of that and then you'd have to deal with all the atoms and then you'd have to deal with all the you know and it gets crazy and of course everything's changing the Cannonball goes out the cannon doesn't have a perfect cylinder The Cannonball isn't perfectly round the powder doesn't burn you know evenly you got all the stuff the cannon the cannon material gets hot because it you know the creates a lot of heat as it gets hot all those molecules start doing different things the barrel

starts to Sag a little and you know so to keep up with all of that from the bottom up we couldn't do it you could get all the computer all the supercomputers in the world together and they still couldn't run that simulation in real time for just one simple Cannon much less the whole world you know it's too hard so what you do is you take a model of a cannon from the re get the rule set okay you get your Cannon and you let it be statistically not not a a perfect sphere for the

ball statistically you know you do this all with Statistics statistically that it's not perfectly round statistically how the powder Burns and you throw all that together and you say okay I fire this ball and it's going to land here then you fire another one all those statistics mean it's going to land someplace else it's not going to land exactly there and you do it until you have a pattern that's called you know that is ballistic dispersion is what we call it when we fire a cannon a thousand times none of those balls will land on

top each other exact they'll all land in a pattern somewhere around you know out there where the cannon pointed well that becomes now a probability distribution of where that Cannon will will send a a ball so now when you're in the a civil war with you know 10,000 cannons always firing as fast as they can every time a cannon fires you go up and you do a random draw from that probability distribution and that's where you put the ball okay so you you have this distribution of the possibilities some will be right where it's pointed

some will be off to the left some off to the right some a little closer some a little further away all of them you have all these probabilities if it's off to the right then the probability is less that it's going to be off to the right if it's right down the middle there's a higher probability that it's going to land there you see what I mean so then they go into the distribution do a random draw out of that and ah this one's off to the right ah the next one's right in the middle

oh the next one's off to the left and so on they're just random draws from those possibilities and those probabilities so then the system then just puts those cannonballs there and nobody knows the soldiers all running around they hear the Boom the ball lands someplace and they don't say oh that ball shouldn't have landed there you know that's not right it lands where it lands you the system doesn't have to do it to that much accuracy in the civil War nobody was would fault it if uh you know it landed someplace really squirly it just

things go boom things land so it can do that to what it only has to do that maybe to you know in an integer doesn't even have to do it to one decimal place it is roughly can do it because nobody's measuring so it makes a really simple calculation when you don't have to do it the you know 20 dimal places you don't have to do it you know you can round it off to the nearest meter would be fine um so that's that's a model and you see how simple that is now you have

a you have the simulation of this war with the 10,000 cannons just no no sweat those little random draws are almost instantaneous there's no big calculation so you've you've reduced something that is so hard we can't do it to something that's almost trivial you just pull random things out so in a bottom up simulation if there could ever be such a thing that bottomup simulation you always know what's going to happen next because it's just what the machine is going to do next given where it is now but when it's a probability-based model there is

no way to know exactly what's going to happen next right so what happens next is a random draw from that probability distribution of the possibilities that's what happens next you see that then allows the model to to move forward now that has lots of lots of uh uh of its own logical possibility so we get a you know and here's one of my my favorite metaphors is that you get a scientist he's looking with a big telescope that can look further than anybody's seen before nobody's ever seen that whatever's out there well what what's out

there has to be something like what's we see out there you know I mean it can't be something off thewall it has to be you know dust and Swirls and Suns and stuff that's there because we've already seen some but there's maybe a thousand different things maybe 100 thousand different things that could be out there and they all have a probability so that guy turns on his telescope and he takes a look at random draws taken from all those possibilities and their probability and that's what he sees that defines it in other words that piece

of space was not defined before there was nothing there because it wasn't find had never been rendered before it was a new rendering of something that had not been rendered so how do you know what's there you don't so you take a random draw from all the from the probability distribution of the possibilities now it's not just a random draw from the pro from the possibilities that would get you all kinds of squirely stuff but it's a random draw from the probability distribution of the possibilities which means mostly that random braw is going to be

more what you expect the things with higher probability will get get drawn out more likely but every once in a while you pull something out of the tail of that curve that's only one in a million and bang that's what you get you know so now this guy with his telescope he takes his picture and he publishes it anybody else who looks there will'll see the same thing because once it comes into this reality it stays here now what if that guy he took is that rendering then permanently left there or does it it can

it just go away and then come back sort of when need well what happens well no it's not always rendered it's only rendered if somebody looks but if somebody looks then it's rendered to the people looking it's not rendered to anybody else you only get rendered to what you did you mean that the your senses can the photograph was now the information that's always going to be there yeah that photograph now tells you what's going to be there when you look when you look that's what will be rendered but it's not rendered all the time

it doesn't really exist so there was that was exist before and now anybody that looks there will see that so that's the way it works but you know you don't have to do something like look into outer space all you have to do is get a shovel and dig a hole it's the same thing when you dig that hole and you put it up nobody's seen that before it's new stuff to be rendered so you go into a probability distribution and that's what we know what's in that hole dinosaur bone uh gold de Bloon dirt

rocks now that's higher probab ility right dirt rocks roots that kind of stuff is real probable and the gold de Bloon is not too probable unless you live maybe on the Golf Coast or what about those far less probable ones like the near-death experiences or even just communicating with past lives how did those really occur then within this okay well okay well what happens is that that database they collect this big database and that database is just probabilities now that things don't have to happen that way we have free will it's just saying present Trends

continue here's what we judge will happen next and given that that's true here's what'll happen next after that and given that that's true here's what well the further out you go then the rtier it gets you know it gets to where you've got this whole string of assumptions all in a line and when what happens isn't what was expected then the system has to go back and recalculate that change and all the things that that change affects gets recalculated you know into the probable future again but that's not really that hard to do so time

goes by and that Pro you know that uh future probable or I should say probable future database becomes the past we're past that point now so now you end up with this database that's everything that could have happened and the probability that it would have happened it's a past probable database and what actually did happen is just a little thread that kind of wanders through that bunch of probabilities those are the choices you actually did make now that database is in Consciousness it has to be made because the rendering engine needs it it becomes the

past and why does it keep the past well you can learn from the past the past can be very educational so it's all there so Uncle Fred you know his lifetime is all there again it's everything about Uncle Fred and if anybody wants to go talk to Uncle Fred later on you you go pay a medium to go dial up Uncle Fred and you know she has a conversation with Uncle Fred well she's she's getting data out of that database Uncle Fred doesn't exist anymore Uncle Fred's Free Will awareness unit was had the petition taken

down and was you know reabsorbed into the individuated unit of Consciousness so Uncle Fred's gone Uncle Fred does does not live on forever none of us do but the Consciousness does that iuoc lives on forever and it's got Uncle Fred and and a whole bunch of other incarnations beside Uncle Fred that that Consciousness has made so that becomes part of the larger database so if you would like to go into a past life or look at things in the past you can go into that database but you have to be a little careful because it's

not just the database of what did happen it's the database of everything that could have happened and the probability so if you just go into it and you don't really know what you're doing you're allowable to wander off that thread which was just the things that actually did happen and you could go into probability so with your intent your intent is the query into that database your intent has to be very specific and it has to specify that you want to just look at things that are on that thread of the things that actually did

happen if you're interested in a like a past life um and you can look at it and you can do what if games you could say well what if this didn't happen how would that change things well the whole thing will just run through the probabilities if that didn't happen then it would change this probability which would change go to that probability which would go to that probability because all the probabilities are in there so it just takes a a line running through all the probabilities that would be most likely to have occurred because this

thing now didn't happen so you could go there and and you can say well what would happen if the Axis powers had won World War II what would the world be like what would it have been like a year later 10 years later 20 years later 50 years later and you will get answers to all of that so you can do those kinds of things what if I had married Sally instead of Sue what would my life be like now you know what would it have been life a year after I married Sally or two

years or 10 years um you know if I hadn't forgotten my wife's birthday three years in a row you know what what would my life be like now you know well you wouldn't have gotten divorced and you know you it'll show you those probabilities so you can learn a lot of things and do a lot of what if analysis with those databases there're something that's valuable do you think mediums are accessing this database or or do you feel that for the most part many of them are not really accessing some sort of a database I

find that when a lot of mediums try to access or talk about these things they're not very specific with the information they provide what what do you think about that mediums have no idea how the nature of reality works all they know is they can they learn they don't think they're getting a database they think they're actually talking to a dead uncle Fred Uncle Fred dies everybody dies in any hangout just waiting for somebody to talk to them you know they don't think about the you know how logical is that you know how how rational

and idea is that they just know that they can go they can drop into their intuitive side they can have an intent for that information I'd like to talk to Uncle Fred and there comes the information there is somebody and they ask Uncle Fred a question or something and Uncle Fred will tell them so then it depends on the quality of the medium if the medium is really very good they will get lots of detail they will they will have that ability to take to get the detail out of the you know out of the

database if they're not as good then they'll just get generalities they'll get less things so that just depends on how good the medium is at their task um some are better than others uh you know it it just means how much did they practice developing their their trait so I'd say most there's probably some mediums that are just charlatans and they don't do anything at all except make up stuff but I think that's probably a very small minority I think most of the mediums are genuine and I think they've learned to access this information but

you know learning to do anything you can learn it a little bit you can learn it you know somewhat more you can learn it kind of an average amount or you can really excel at it like anything else you know you become a a plumber you can be okay at it you can you can be really fantastic at it you know I mean anything is like that well it's the same with the medium some are are much better than others it depend how much time they take trying to hone their skills how much confidence they

build up in it what are they able to to get so some will get generalities because that's the level at which they work and those generalities may be all it's necessary it could be that their client just you know that person died and their client who's alive never got the closure yet with that person before they died and so they've been carrying around this big problem or guilt or something because they they needed to have this this closure first and so it helps them so in their case generalities are good enough you know you don't

need any more than generalities those kinds of things work fine what the medium gets is they get feelings they get attitudes they get uh some factual details but again you know they they're they're from okay to to terrific you know and just depends on and they probably some days they may be better than others because they're just more you know if you meditate if you've been meditating for a long time you know some days oh man it's a cense you can sit down and that meditation gets deep and smooth and you get get into it

in a hurry and it's awesome and other times you sit there and nothing really much happens I mean everybody's like that right I mean life is like that so it's the same with mediums you know they're not always you know their game is not always on because doing that work requires that you get into a very specific intuitive state of mind and if you have problems if you have issues going on in your life if you have other things things well they get in the way and kind of Muddy the waters so how good are

you at putting all that stuff aside how good are you at having a clear noisess environment you know in your mind to work with well some days are better than others some people are you know more skilled than others so it's just like everything else and you think that Crossing that crossing over or entering that sort of similar transition state is is purposeful in the sense that for the most part those those access to information situations tend to to be very positive for people so you think it sort of guides that process you're talking about

yeah of course they're positive the whole point of it isn't because the dead person needs something dead person doesn't need anything they don't need closure or anything else the the point of it is that there's somebody here who's carrying around grief or guilt or some other kind of an issue that's really keeping them from going on and growing and making good choices they're maybe waddling around in self-pity because they didn't do the things they should have done didn't say the things they should have said said things they shouldn't have said you know they before that

person died you know they maybe went off on a rant and gave him a lot of grief and now they they realize most of that was just them and their own uh you know their own frame of mind or something and they wish they hadn't done that so so they carry this stuff around so most of the of the the client that come to mediums they're the ones that need healing it's not that Uncle Fred has is having problems he's not having any problems he's done the the client has issues the client needs to know

that Uncle Fred's okay because the client has I don't know they have ties or they have something they they can't let go of so they if they just can talk to Uncle Fred and he says I'm fine you know everything's great here and they get convinced that it really is Uncle Fred because they get some personal details out of him and they say oh yeah if you told me that then I know that really is you know my uncle Fred then they it heals that problem for them so that's kind of the the purpose and

point of it is that it's healing for the for the client that wants to do it so that's what's important so the messages are almost always positive of course course the messages are almost always positive so there's you know it's it's true that if a person you know if that discussion between the client and the dead person was such that it really would have changed the dead person's Viewpoint well maybe the change in thoughts that the alive person had and maybe the whole thing would actually could go back to that OC as a little bit

of new information about that past life that they didn't have before so it might actually affect a little bit but you know that's going to be very very marginal wouldn't it wouldn't be just a a sort of the database that's stored already it wouldn't you think it actually would interact with the the real data of the individual that's that existed you think it wouldn't just be accessing sort of past memories or um vers false memor yeah false memories well probably not if the medium is good oh I see if the medium's not good then it's

hard to tell what she she may be adding stuff to it you know the information a person gets comes from only three possible sources one of them is the larger conscious system and the database would be just a part of that so it comes from the system it comes from some other Consciousness some other ALU see because we're all netted all Consciousness is on a is on a network so all conscious can talk to any other Consciousness or it comes from themselves their Consciousness they can create information and send it as well so in the

process of of calling up dead uncle Fred and having a chat with him if the medium has some kind of issues that also connect with that problem or that thing let's say she you know Uncle Fred jilted Aunt Susie now Aunt Susi has come to you know to talk to Uncle Fred about stuff that she needs to work out and the medium was also jilted by her husband now she's got a personal you know uh um thing that this this thing that her client is doing you know it also is part of her personal well

she may make up some information there too because it's hard to separate yourself out of it unless you are very skilled well that's part of the skill level is how completely you can isolate yourself your own ego your own fears from what you're doing if you can isolate them completely then you're a much better medium if you can isolate them pretty good but not completely then you're not quite as good and so on so that's just part of the talent of the person is how much they can isolate themselves otherwise they may be sticking you

know words into Uncle Fred's mouth because that's what they believe you know Uncle Fred would think or feel with with with along those lines of accessing information that's not part of everybody's day-to-day how how does The Theory of Everything explain accessing information beyond your your own avatar so sort of telepathic experiences well you have your piece of Consciousness you're not a body as a piece of Consciousness you can access that database it's available to you the way you access it is with an intent ask a question you know send out an intention the intention doesn't

even have to be on purpose you may just be thinking about something and that might trigger a response you know oh I wonder how such and such is doing you know you may just not be in your conscious mind but it's in your subconscious mind and the response comes so we call this intuition oh I just got a bold out of the blue I just suddenly understood something you know we I got an information you know an su's having a hard time we ought to call and see what's going on there you know so you

get these things these messages conscious to Consciousness from the from the database from the larger conscious system and they're available to you so if you want to look at somebody's Health well you can get that right out of the database that database is only you know I we call it historical but it starts just one delta T after the present moment so it's pretty current that delta T is 10 minus 44 seconds so the newest stuff in that database is only 10 the minus 44 seconds old so it's pretty much current you know from our

Viewpoint that's that's current even though it's really in the past database so then you can look at that data and you can say all right what I'd like to see is whether or not uh you know this this lump I feel over here I want to see how how serious that is if it's if it's really serious like cancer and deadly then I want it to be black if it's not not I want it to be white so then you look at it if you see a black spot then that's your answer now if you

had fear and were afraid you'd get a black spot then you may just be listening to your own fear you see it may have been you feeding that information to yourself so you have to get rid of all of that that's what I mean to to do this well you need to be able to to control what you're thinking and how you're thinking and where it comes from you know and that's a skill that people gain over years and years and years of practice they get better and better at that so yes that database is

there you can look at your health you can look at somebody else's health and and uh you also can come up with your own output so this database is something you can ask a question and you can tell the database how you want the data you know what the output data looks like like the black and white that I just described to you you know you don't have to use black and white you could do just the opposite I want black to be the good thing and I want white to be the bad thing so

it's it's irrelevant you can specify the database if you're a statistician you can put error bars on it you can do all kinds of clever things if you want to know well what's the accuracy of this information you know because there may be some uh you know maybe some of the information isn't as specific if it's really old it may not be that specific you know just like I said that it takes you know all the possibilities of everything that could happen well not everything it's got some point you know if the probability is less

than 10 to the minus 20 or something we're not interested we're not going to count that as a possibility you know it's got some cut offs that it that it has to have same with the maintaining the database if you go back and say well okay I had a great great great great great great great back in you know 10,000 years ago um relative and I I want to know what did they have for lunch that day you know what did they had to lunch exactly 10,000 years ago from today from right now at noon

time you know what was my relative having for lunch that day well that's not going to be in a database because that's not important anymore that's all been erased what hasn't been erased is that the system will make a a statistical model out of it about what what those times were like and about what people might have eaten in those times you know that's still there you know there's some general thing of it and it'll just go in there and pill out something typical oh he had a clam sandwich you know cuz he lived on

the Bay of such and such so it just picks that stuff out that may not have anything to do with what you're you know with the question you asked but it gives you an answer that is close sort of like what your relative 10,000 years ago might have had for lunch so it it does things like that it gives you the closest answer it gets so they're not always right on so you can ask it for error bars and they can say well you know could have been different could have been this could have been

that um so that's you can what about telecommunication is that something explaining that's that's where all Consciousness is netted so you can you're you are connected to people and on this net it's sort of like the internet you know on the internet uh there's a little X up at the upper right hand corner and when you don't want to be open to that channel you just click that X and the Channel's gone well you can do the same here you can open and close channels the people that you're close to and that you like and

that you have a lot of feelings for and you're connected to those people the channels are almost always open so you kind of have a sense of what their state is where how they are what they're doing uh you can go in and feel their feelings and you can you know and that's called an empath you can be empathetic with them and gather all that information well that just means you're you're the Channel's open and you're paying attention to what's in the channel what you can access in the channel but you can also turn things

off you can open the channel and turn it off any way you want for instance this would be an example if you're a person if you're an empath you get all this information and often empaths get overwhelmed by it they can't they can't deal with all the information they get and they don't know how to turn it off because they don't understand the nature of reality either just like the mediums don't so they can't walk into let's say a busy store you know get some discount house and you know on evil Friday or whatever it

is you know there's there's a thousand people in there and they're all trying to grab things first well an empath couldn't couldn't get even close to that store because all the all the Vibes they'd get would just be too much they'd have to stay away but they could say with their intent well I want to close off everything I want to close off everything coming out of that store except for people that have blue eyes if they have blue eyes I want to listen to it and then they'd only hear the stuff with people with

blue eyes or I only want to hear from people have a birthday today well they'd only hear the stuff from people with a birthday today they can select it they just don't know that they can do that because they don't understand how that works what do you call these phenomena do you personally do you call them ESP do you do you prefer using terms like that all well I would just say that they are things that are in the intuitive realm the Consciousness has two paths two different paths by which it can process information one

is an intellectual path which is basically a logical path and the other one is an intuitive path which is not logical at all it's totally outside of logic on the in everything paranormal takes place in the intuitive path there is nothing paranormal that takes place on the on the intellectual path matter of fact the two of those can learn to work together but mostly when you're not when you don't have them develop very well they tend to interfere with each other so how do you define paranormal I think it's very simple it's beyond normal it's

outside of normal now here's all the things and normal in our culture is materialism what materialism and determinism comes you know our physics our science our biology our chemistry all of that is is the is the rules of the rule set so we look at that and that finds normal okay you can explain it with physics now the things you can explain with physics and there's lots of things you can't explain with physics every physics is only good in biology and chemistry for explaining the objective world the subjective world I think we said that last

time the subjective world is a much bigger more interesting more meaningful world than the objective world the objective world is just the stuff your body being part of that it's just the stuff but the subjective world is beauty love Justice caring you know friendship fairness you know all that stuff is subjective it's not objective and that's where most of our our life's meaning comes from the subjective side so the Paranormal is stuff that happens on the subjective side not on the objective side so paranormal means it cannot be explain by normal objective means so that's

just the definition of all of it so there will be no normal explanation because it's it's comes out of Consciousness it's not coming out of the rule set in the virtual reality this is coming this is things of Consciousness so Consciousness has this big database and you can get information from it all consciouses are netted and you can share information now all that stuff happens in Consciousness it doesn't happen in the objective world you can have a an intent that modifies those probabilities you can actually modify those probabilities so when that random draw comes up

you've made all those probabilities a little more positive toward you know a little higher probability to way you'd like it to come out that's how we use our minds to heal by modifying the future probability so all of these things are paranormal in that they have no objective explanation but all right are there any Paran Nei neither does fairness or love have any objective explanation nor consideration nor any of the other things that are you know important to us in life they don't have any objective either I mean how do you measure consideration you know

how do you you know how do you do that well you can't you can make a scale but 10 people could make it all different ways and you know one one wouldn't be more right than the other you know so these things are just subjective and look at medicine all of medicine is subjective you know when somebody says I've got a pain well how much of a pain do they really have you know some people have pains and hardly notice them because they're tough that way people who have constant pains learn to just ignore them

you know and other people who have just the tiniest little something or other it's it's a big deal it drives them crazy it's horrible so it's all subjective so you you deal with medicine and everything is statistical they have to give this pill to 100,000 people and see what the results are that's how they figure out whether that pills any good or not not because there's some objective analysis that they can do it's all subjective analysis and subjective analysis is only meaningful if you do enough of it that you got statistical significance you have to

do a sort of clinical control trial and then get all together exactly so everything that happens on the subjective side is really not necessarily you can't you can't uh explain it from the the objective side doesn't explain the subjective side that's what paranormal is it's just stuff we don't understand and when I say don't understand that means the the objective science can't explain it the objective science will never explain it it's not objective it's Consciousness Consciousness is non-physical so you can't have a physical explanation of something that's non-physical you see it just isn't it doesn't

work that way it can't be done so you have this this one side of you that that is all about the subjective and this is the side that has to get data from that database this is the side that has to be trained to be able to have a low noise environment to get rid of your own attitudes and and things like that and set them aside so you can be entirely detached from the data that you're getting you don't mix it with any of your own feelings or attitudes or beliefs so that's the skills

that you have to develop on this intuitive side well most most of us have a pretty well-developed intellectual side because we practice at it we start in kindergarten we start learning facts you know and we we get smart about how to hone our intellect and we don't do anything with our intuitive side most people were more intuitive when they were three years old than they are now as adults so you know their development is like a you know it's probably not even as good as a newborn there's like sub birth almost uh people just live

out of their heads and and ignore that other side of them now the other side's still there things will jump into their mind they'll get aha moments and stuff's there but it's totally disorganized it just happens whenever it happens and they have no control over it and sometimes it's right sometimes it's wrong you know sometimes it's their own stuff getting in the way uh their own fears just being fed back to them so they they don't have any control over it so it's a mess it's just this big jumble of stuff that is hard to

sort through so we kind of walk away from it well it doesn't have to be that way you can develop the intuitive side to where it is actually more accurate and more reliable than is the intellectual information Tom the word par the word paranormal Tom is often Associated either with what you're talking about I mean that love um people crossing over having these great experiences but then you have the other side where you've got movies like Paranormal Activity lots of horror stories what do you think is happening there part of that is just imagine if

that's not really stuff that happens I mean there is there is some some goofy things that happen yeah and yes you know you have this ability to modify future probability and if you really get everything lined up just right and you're very powerful because you got control over your mind mind or you just have to have or maybe you have just very strong uh intensity in the way you feel and your mind just kind of slips through uh these states kind of just because your mind is in different states all the time you know you

if you take a look at brain waves they're changing they're all over the place unless you really know how to control them and then a person can put them all here or put them all there but uh if you get that then you can get some some pretty major phenomen you can get you know uh there's all sorts of Records where where people have created manifestations of things but they can't do it because they want to they just happen to cross into the right State at the right moment when they were full of some kind

of intensity and a you know a very whatever and Bango you get something all right and that's a big flash okay what did they do they started a fire you know suddenly something catches on fire well yeah that can happen things can catch on fire because of what you do in your mind that's a real thing but the fact that it happens randomly okay odd things happen and they can happen randomly so some of those things are probably real but in the movies of course it it's it's entirely different the movies are made just to

be entertaining not to be accurate yes so you know experiences of like of accessing this information Deja Vu would be one of those yeah Dave AER would be one of those you you could get information from a time that you or somebody you knew was there you could be collecting it out of their mind or you could be collecting out of the database at the time you were there maybe in a past life even it would seem familiar to you so there's things like that that would just oh this is so familiar I know if

I walk into this store that I've never been in I know exactly what's going to be in and that back counter all the way in that thing there's going to be a an ice cream shop you know and over here and you walk in it is that way well how would you know that well because you can get that data get all that information out of the database and and the the deja vu might just be that it's familiar somewhere in your mind or it may be totally by accident we we interpret Things based on

pattern matching so if you were someplace similar if you'd seen a picture that was very similar if it had been in a movie someplace you know and you saw some picture that was similar and you had that in your mind as a pattern and then you see it ah you just you pull that right out and you might go in there and there may be no ice cream thing back there at all and you you swore there must have been but it's not well that's because you pulled out a pattern that was similar but it's

not the right thing so we tend to pattern match things you know and that's causes us a lot of trouble you know some of the Mandela effect is just a pattern matching effect when you look at a word you know I don't know if you've seen it on the internet but there's a there's a place on the internet that comes around the internet every once in a while where there'll be a paragraph about maybe 10 lines of something and what they've done is they took every word that was in that paragraph and they left the

first two letters and the last two letters alone and then they randomly mixed all the letters in between and of course the question is can you read this well I read it I read the whole thing with no trouble at all and if you'd asked me did you find any misspelled words I would said no everything looked fine I read it and was perfectly clear now I wasn't trying to edit it or you know look at it with that kind of detail if I was I would have found every word misspelled but well I maybe

not I'm not that great a speller but my spell checker would have found every word misspelled anyhow when I looked at it I could read them it's pattern match you get a you get a pattern of what a word it is you see enough of that pattern you just grab that and you go on and you may have grabbed the wrong pattern because there may be several things that have the same first two letters and the last two letters but they have different letters in between and they mean different things and you could have done

that you know you could have come with the wrong pattern so we we do that you know the the the Mandela people the I had a little conference at the Mandela uh organization and I gave him like four different ways that Consciousness can create you know a Mandela effect and that was just one of them it's uh but there are four different things that do it and the last one of course is that sometimes the reality is just squirly the larger Consciousness system may just you know it's a data stream you get and if it

wants to put little green men with pointy ears in your data stream it can do that you know and that's what you'll see and that will be your reality and it will be just as physical as anything else because because that's what we get we get a data stream from the server and we as a free will awareness unit we interpret that data to be our reality and everybody lives in their own reality because everybody gets a data stream there is no reality out there you know the Mandela effect has this assumption that there is

a true reality out there that is some way but it seems to change from now you know now and again but part of that problem is that there is no reality out there there's only you know there's eight billion people here and there's 8 billion different viewpoints of what reality is each one is individual but it's a multiplayer game so the the game shows us each you know shows you and I sitting where we are and connected because that's what we're doing now so you know it's a multiplayer game any multiplayer game you get to

see the same thing that other players are seeing you all see the same monster in the same place you're all engaged in the same battle you know that that sort of thing so sure there's lots of similarities but everybody gets their own data stream and if the system wants to put something squirely in your data stream well your reality is just going to be different than anybody else's and if it wants you to realize that this reality is more than just materialistic uh machine then it might just start putting some very different things in different

people's realities just to cause a Mandela effect so that people say you know reality isn't as button down as we thought it's kind of goofy sometimes well that just opens people's minds and it's a thing the system would do just to help pry open people's minds so they have a little bigger picture so let's talk about the sort of computational boundary of the self within this Avatar um or within this cont ious I mean we've got this Avatar it's got this Consciousness this reality is governed by information at what point is this Avatar or the

player able to go beyond this Avatar so now we're heading into the territory of outof body experiences let's define outof body experience because I've watched and I've listened to many of your podcasts I see you've go through the history of it for anyone who wants to listen to those they can the Bob Monroe Institute all of that but for this one let's focus on the Crux of the of the topic what is an outof experience and how does this outer body experience is most accurately described as a single player game that's been handed to you

by the LCS so your reality is a data stream and that data stream can describe this virtual reality that we call the physical universe but it doesn't have to they can give you a data stream that describes something else and that something else then becomes your reality okay now that's the same thing we're talking about in the Mandela effect now you're just getting a different data stream now so if you you can use meditation or you can maybe skip meditation and use your your imagination but if you get to the point that you let the

physical world go and what I mean by that you ignore the data stream that's coming to you describing this physical Universe okay you just ignore it so you don't process any of that data mostly people do that through meditation they'll get into a meditation State and they will stop processing physical data and when they do remember that point Consciousness all you are is a piece of Consciousness aware that you're aware that's it well when you get to that point the larger conscious system can if you want if you intend to you can get another data

stream where you are out flying around you're in places you're going different kind of places and you think well I'd rather go over there see what that is and you fly over there and you see what that is and you run into people and you interact with them and you know so you have this big experience it's just a single player game you're now getting a data stream that's defining a different reality that is not this virtual reality it's some other virtual reality that's being played for you and that's all an out body is is

that's basically what your lucid dream is except one of them you never lose Consciousness you go from awake in this reality to awake in another reality and the other one you lose Consciousness first and then wake up and you're in a different reality you're not in the physical reality anymore so it's just kind of different entry process for each one but it both takes you to the same place now the thing about data streams is that you get a data stream your reality isn't that data stream your reality is your interpretation of that data stream

you get the data but you have to interpret it now interpreting it has some problems it depends on your level of fear your level of knowledge your intellect your you know everything your emotions all that defines you will impact and color how you interpret it it in and you have to interpret it into things into metaphors that are physical for the most part because that's how you think that's what your language does our language is a language that describes things physical well not always we can describe feelings we can describe other things so you'll have

feelings so you just but you have to put it into the same context as which you put your interpretation of this physical Matteri reality that virtual reality because that's where your language is that's where your thoughts are and without the language you can't put your thoughts in any kind of an order to express them if you can't express them you can't express them to yourself either then they're just vague kind of feelings and things and wow that was really something but I can't explain it you know I don't have any words for it well that's

because you don't have any patterns already in your system to match it to so you just you're lost there but you match it to some pattern that you've already got so if you're having a conversation with somebody you match that to a pattern of a humanoid because that's what you usually talk to this humanoid things you don't talk to chickens you don't talk to dogs you don't talk to rocks so you're having a conversation you'll pattern that as a humanoid and if you want to see who you're talking to you'll see kind of a human

in shape it'll have a head and arms and legs and probably be a robe with a hood so you don't have to conjure up all the detail unless you really want to it just makes it simpler and uh so that's what you'll get but you see you'll see that as a person and you're having this conversation and then you'll say oh I went to some place and I met this guy George and George told me all kinds of interesting things about where he lives okay well basically the reason you saw George the way you saw

him is because that was your best pattern match for somebody that'll talk to you George may have been a you know a three-headed giraffe or something but you wouldn't have you wouldn't have made that match you wouldn't have interpreted it that way so it's your interpretation of the data that you get and your interpretation is colored by all kinds of things so how do you get better is you re you develop the skills again that detaches you from all that stuff that's yours you know from from all that fear and ideas and beliefs and you

try to get rid of all your beliefs try to offload all your fear you try to get as clean as possible and then you want to be in a detached state where you're not thinking of anything and your mind is clear and now your interpretation will be closer to what the data actually was giving you you see so again there's people who are good at it and very good at it and not so good at it but everybody thinks they're good at it you know everybody thinks that what they saw that's what was there there

was this guy there and he had this robe on and he said the most amazing things and here's what he said you know they'll say that but that's you have to realize that's their interpretation of what they got out of the data stream if that data stream gives you things that you've gotten no pattern match at all for you probably won't even remember it because you won't have any way to put it into a language that you can describe it to yourself a lot of people do that they'll go in they'll get into a meditation

space they'll disappear for an hour come back and they don't have any idea what they did or where they've been well part of that is that it wasn't anything that they could pattern match they couldn't they couldn't bring it back it wasn't you know something they could bring back so and there's other reasons that you might get that too but anyway so that's what your reality is like you tend to create your own reality in several ways one way is how you interpret it okay now if let's say you're a depressed person how you interpret

your reality is everything sucks everything is nasty everybody is a problem you know all you'll see is negativity everywhere and every somebody comes up and real cheerly says oh hi have a nice day you'll think I what a slob he didn't mean that you see you'll just find something negative about it and you won't see that that was some nice person just being nice you'll see it was just some jerk who says stuff that he doesn't really mean so you interpret it and it works the other way if you're very positive you you interpret everything

as being positive so your life gets to be really good and happy because even if something awful happens you go oh well it's a good opportunity for me to learn something all right how you know what's the best solution for that what's what's my best choice and you see it as a as a challenge and a puzzle and that's growing that's even fun so even though it's something terrible that happened you turn it around and make something positive out of it it's an opportunity so then you say how's life and you say it's great everything's

positive I'm learning I'm growing I'm you know I'm doing things well so you see it's just a lot of what your reality is comes from you so in that way you you don't create the data stream that comes to you so you don't create your reality that way you cre you create your own reality as much as you get to interpret that data in whichever way that it represents you the other way you can you can um modify your realities with an intent to modify the probability distributions that's another way you can change your reality

um Tom you guys have done some fascinating work I mean with the Bob Monroe Institute and all this the things you've done in your career I think the logical question from all of this is is can we test let's say outof body experiences can we test these this access to information and I I mean I know you've done work on this but I'm just asking it in that way so that people get a deeper understanding if you want an objective test test that's that a physicist would say that's solid data no you won't do that

because everything's in the subjective world the objective world doesn't explain things in a subjective world that's it's just the nature the two of those things are different subjective means it happens in your own mind it's your it's your attitude it's your feel it's the it's you know that is not susceptible to an objective test now you can make some objective test you can hook them up to a to an E EG and watch the brain waves you can hook them up to an MRI or something and look at the look at the the Heat or

blood flow in their brain and you know you've seen those kind of patterns of people and and you can find similarities there and say oh look this lobe just lit up that means they're thinking about things but exactly what they're thinking about isn't going to be clear you know so some general things you can you can monitor but from somebody to come back and say oh I talked to some guy his name was Fred and uh you know he had a robe on and he told me all these wonderful things there's no way that the

objective was going to say oh that was just a lot of crap now they'll they'll say that anyway just because they figure anything that isn't objective is undefined and therefore you know a load of crap but they won't say that from knowledge that's just their belief but it may not be a load of crap because when the it probably isn't the reason it's important is that the larger conscious system is trying to raise its own quality of Consciousness it's trying to you know lower his entropy we are part of its strategy for doing that therefore

it has incentive to be helpful to us to help us succeed so it's not an uninterested party that just says okay UI USC you know go do whatever you do leave me alone it's not like that it has a vested interest in US succeeding and growing up so when you do an out of body and the system sends you a data stream that data stream isn't just something to entertain you the system is not interested in entertaining you it's something that will help you grow up it's something that will teach you something you just have

to find a lesson in it you see so when you if you do a lot of out of body and you pay attention then you'll learn a lot and you will grow up for it because that out of- body experience was meant to help you grow up so to say that well we couldn't couldn't measure it directly from the objective world so it's meaningless it's not meaningless at all on that intuitive side there's lots of meaning on on that intuitive side now there's lots of significance we already said that you know the most significance and

meaning in your life is on that side that's where meaning and significance lives and if you get that through Consciousness then it can be very meaningful but now let's say that on your intuitive side you're not very skilled at it so the fact that you can create information and then feed that information back to you well you may have made it all up that guy you saw and what he said said that was something may you could have made up entirely or you could have been getting that from some other person some other consciouses could

have been feeding you that information now that's the most unlikely because we don't sit around and try to feed information like that to other people so that's a very low probability but the other two aren't so low that you can make it up yourself or it can come from the larger Consciousness system and the bad news is there's no tag on that the various sources you know those three sources don't come with a little tag that says oh this is from you and this is from the larger conscious system it's just data because sometimes it's

a mixture you get stuff from the larger conscious system and then because it triggers some of your own stuff you start adding or subtracting and putting stuff in it um you know that happens most of the time so when you get somebody's writing a book about his out of- body experiences you're seeing some of what he got in his data stream and you're seeing a lot of what his reaction to that stuff came comes out of his own self and what he turns it into and his pattern matches of what comes out of it and

his metaphors to explain it are all his so you have to kind of read between the lines see what was really going on there and some of the time you just can't tell you know where it's coming from that's again it depends on the practitioner you can be very good at separating those three you know those three different sources you can be just with experience you learn they feel different they come at you different ways they have different tone different color to them you know so you can separate them if you're not very experienced you

can't separate them they're all the they all look like exact the same thing but you can never even with a lot of experience separate them with with no uncertainty they'll always be some uncertainty because the larger Consciousness system is clever enough to be able to mimic things that will set you off to be one thing when it's not you know it's you can't say oh well I know that came from another source you don't know that for sure it seems that way it's the way the other source used usually is but the larger conscious system

is the master of everything because it's in charge of the you know it's creating the reality it can do what it will it wants to help you learn and it will give you things that give you opportunities to learn it can't make you learn you have to find the opportunity and then learn from it you I don't know if we mentioned this before but you know a lot of a lot of young guys when they're in their 20s and 30s and going into their 40s they go out of body and all they do is fight

you know they have the they have the sword of truth and you know there's they're the good guys and then there's the evil people and they spend all their time fighting evil well why is that it's because they're young guys and and guys are protectors they're the ones that go out and fight evil you know that's kind of their role it's the way they see reality it's the way they see themselves and most of all the all the evil that they fight is evil that they create those images are mostly coming out of their own

mind because they're going out there looking to Vanquish evil that's kind of the mindset they have well what do they see oh there's all kinds of evil things all over and those things are a combination of what the system gives them which isn't that much and mostly it's what they create it's how they how they see evil so they spend a lot of time out you know hacking hacking evil and making the world in the non-physical a better place for everyone when the [Music] lesson is to let go of that that the fighting isn't the

not the way you know and that uh they learn that there's always another evil thing there you know it's not like after they're done ah now the non-physical world is all peaceful and it's going to stay that way forever nope there's always another evil thing there because they're going out to fight evil things so you see it's kind of an endless they're in an endless loop there and eventually they're supposed to outgrow it get tired of it and look for something more meaningful and let it go and when they do then they've grown up a

little bit so the system will will tailor stuff to you and your own interests and will give you things that will help you learn but it's not going to tell you something it's not going to say hey put your sword down and and go think of some other way you know to be helpful it's not all it's not all about fighting it's not all about you know power and force force isn't the main way you change things it's by force mostly by force you either keep things the same or you make things worse you know

that's that's the typal typical result result of force and they have to they have to come to that in their own way with that with that nice background in mind Tom tell me how what did you guys do I mean because you guys have done so much work over time what was the thought process behind trying to test these outof body body experiences and what would the results for all of those who are not familiar with your work well first of all we use the aab body almost exclusively to do things that were evidential and

let say Dennis and I would go out and we'd get into bed and we would spend probably two-thirds of our time doing things evidential and another third of our time just going out and experiencing what we could experience you know just kind of exploring and that's because you don't get any evidence that what you're doing is real when you just go out and explore because it's you know there's no feedback there it's either you know you either did or you created it or you never know so what we did is we spent most of our

time doing things like remote viewing you immediately get your answer is what you saw what was actually there uh healing because now that's medicine so you only get information about how well you did after you've done hundreds of people you know you get a sense and some are never evidential like oh I worked on somebody's headache and it went away well so what it might have just gone away anyway you know headaches come and go you have to but if you worked on a hundred people with headaches and 98 of them went away immediately well

now that's different you know that that's got some kind of statistical significance to it and if you worked on somebody who had a chronic illness and was all bent over and twisted up and hadn't been able to walk for you know 20 years they've been in a wheelchair had to be pushed around because their body wasn't able to get out and walk and you worked on them and you know the next day after you worked on them they got up danced a jig and you know went out took a stroll in the park well now

that's evidential even though it was just a one-off because something very very unusual happened you did something that was probably a one in a million that it would or one in a trillion even that it would have taken place so after what 20 30 years of doing this you come up with enough statistics that will convince you that it's real you are really affecting people and you can modify future probability you can interact with with entities and things that make sense give you information that's valuable teach you things and you learn that often it's not

what the lesson isn't so much in what an entity might tell you as it is in how you handled the interaction how you got there how good were you at at uh being uh completely detached how good were you at keeping your own stuff out of it because the conscious system when you're out of body will feed you a link and they'll feed you stuff that resonates with your own problems with your own issues just to see for you to practice you know being you know not letting your issues interfere so it gives you practice

for that and so the fact the actual the actual interaction wasn't what was important what was important was that the lesson gave you practice at honing your control over your own Consciousness and control is not the cor words your your ability to to make your Consciousness more efficient and more useful to you so some of were just lessons and you know you don't realize that in the beginning it's only with some perspective later that you you know understand those things but Dennis and I did a lot of remote viewing we would be in the booths

and Bob would go over and write numbers down on on a chalkboard and we were supposed to tell them what the numbers were um we would go to friends houses and things and see what they were doing and you know try to pick up something unusual you know oh yeah you were sitting on the couch watching TV well yeah what they do every night you know that doesn't mean anything you know well what was that I saw something bright red right in the middle of right in the middle of your bed you had some you

know just this big splash of bright red right in the middle of your bed and you call them up and and the lady would say oh yeah just just today I bought a new pair of red shoes and I had them sitting in the middle of the bed well Bingo you see you got that right you didn't necessarily see they were shoes but you got the color and so we look for unusual things like that and again if you do that over years you do it thousands of times you start to develop a sense of

of the capability of that these things are true and real so it's not something you'll get right away it's not like you can practice this for a week and you'll know whether it's you know real or not it takes a long time with a lot of data but eventually you'll get past the point of trying to to discover is it real some point for me I was probably a couple of couple of years into Bob and Rose thing been on hundreds of out bodies and whatever and you know I'm a scientist I'm hard to convince

of things like that you know in my mind H you know it's a mental thing you know maybe I don't know what it was but you know maybe there is some other explanation for it you know so I'm hard to convince but I was convinced I got to that point where I didn't have to ask is it real anymore when Dennis and I both went out together on a on an out-of- body thing and we stayed with each other and we both saw the same things we discussed things we had conversations and here we were

in Two isolation booths where we couldn't hear each other couldn't see each other we totally isolated actually there are three booths there and I was in the first one he was in the last one so it was empty Booth between us and all of them were acoustically isolated the one I was in was electromagnetically isolated was a faraday cage and and uh we were having conversations answering each other's questions uh looking at things having you know whatever cuz Bob had his report all the things that happened and he was um recording both of those back

in those days it was on cassettes and he recorded all that stuff so he had a cassette for me and a cassette for Dennis and he he rewound them when we came out and he started them both at the same time so that they would be you know they would be synced in time and he played both of them at the same time and here we were we were obviously together and we obviously were talking met the same people heard the same things you know so we had a out of- body together do these exist

Tom H do these tapes still exist I have looked for them Bob had them and I suspect that they were probably kind of special to Bob and he probably put him in some you know special place so they wouldn't get lost but you know there was literally thousands and thousands of tapes I can and at the time at the time there wasn't a whole lot of care about what was done with him it was a great big box in a closet and Bob taped everything every session for everybody no matter if they just walked in

off the street and it was the first time that you know he he taped everything he was collecting data but cassettes were pulled out and thrown in a box you thrown in a box thrown in a box pretty soon the box has thousand cassettes in it and one day I think after Bob was probably passed on all those tapes were gathered up and they got the box and they went through them and tried to listen to everyone and categorize it and who was it and what were they doing and they put a lot of effort

into trying to squeeze entropy out of that that mess of tapes and what they found was two things one some of them are really hard to tell you know they were hard to figure out what was going on so those just weren't you know they never went anywhere some of them the tapes were too old cuz Bob had been you know he'd been collecting his tapes for I don't know 15 20 years a lot of time he he had a lot of lot of takes you know he'd been collecting there's more than one box I

suspect but um anyhow there was so many of them those tapes and he always bought the cheapest tapes possible because he went through so many of them Bob was a little stingy on things like that and he would uh he'd go to a Radio Shack and he'd get tapes that cost uh you know a dollar a piece or something really good cassettes were like $5 a piece but he he'd buy a box of 50 you know such that there were you know 7 cents a piece or something so he was saving money but he didn't

think about how long they'd last those cheap tapes were in very cheap plastic uh you know cassettes and I'd say that a fair number of them just were too old too brittle didn't you know they just didn't play anymore you start to play them and the tape would would fall apart would so they did have a lot of them and if you go to the mon you can look up tapes you can listen to me when I'm when I was in that Booth they've got some of my tapes in there but those particular tapes never

showed up and my guess is that Bob probably has set them aside because they were kind of amazing and they got who knows you know after his death who knows what happened maybe they just cleaned it out threw them in a garbage bag you know it's hard to say there was so many tapes everywhere that uh like a needle in a hay stack but they have tried I've asked them to go back and look again and they have really cooperated and put a lot of effort in and they just can't find that they didn't dig

it out but Dennis is still alive he's still he's a little older than me but he's still uh kicking too so he he remembers it as well but other than that no that uh unfortunately those tapes don't exist anymore when you look back what do you think Bob's intention for all this research and what what is the overarching theme and goal well there's several different ones Bob's was to try to make his out of- Body Experience legitimate he had these out of- body experiences and he knows most people looked at him and said that's just

your imagination you know that's these are dreams you're having and and whatever most people blew it off as as uh non-consequential didn't really mean anything had no significance and Bob knew that it did because he had done things and and collected information you know our remote viewing wasn't just lying in the bed and having our mind go remote view we'd go out of body and with our out of body we would go someplace and look at things and and and then come back and see whether what we said so it was it was that kind

of a thing so Bob knew that he had seen things gathered information that was just impossible for him to have and that he found it was correct so he was convinced that it was absolutely true and he didn't try to do a lot of analysis in his books his books were like a journal here's what I experienced he didn't try to say and I interpret it you know this is my interpretation and this is what I think it meant he just said this is what I experienced and that was good because he didn't really know

how to interpret it or what it meant but he wanted to learn more so he his motivation was he wanted it to become more legitimate more science you know research he wanted enough people doing it to catalog it that you could find things that were similar and and Trends and then he found you know we we found the binural beats and had a really nice tool and then suddenly he saw a business opportunity so then you know shortly after that he created uh you know TMI you know the Monroe Institute and had people coming and

it began to pay for itself because it all the first bunch of years Bob funded everything everything came out of Bob's pocket and it didn't give anything back you know it was just his interest to find out so he found something that would that would give back and maybe even have a little left over you know pay for staff and other things and that was good it kind of raised the whole game to a little higher level the more research you you could hire somebody just to do research you know so that's what TMI then

started teaching courses and doing other things once they got a sound that was really helpful for most people so that was his his idea now mine was very different I'm a I'm a physicist what physics does is tries to model reality we try to understand how does reality work what is reality and how does it work that's basically what physics is all about so my motivation I didn't really care so much whether anybody thought I was crazy or not that or whether they you know Bob did he didn't want to be seen as crazy he

wanted it to be legitimate I didn't really care what other people thought I wanted to understand it I wanted to to understand why is it like that okay this works and that works but why and why are there limits and why do you heal some people and not others and why do you sometimes get your rem remote viewing wrong and what are the parameters involved how significant is your altered state or the preparation that you do going into it or can you skip all that stuff so I had just thousands of questions that wanted to

scientifically find out what was going on so my whole point in it was find a model find a way to describe it so I tried looking at the literature you know and we'd you know read everything that I could find written about it and most of it was junk it wasn't you know there was very little science or stuff that actually looked like facts to me and the the one book I got that seemed like it had an idea but it was missing an awful lot of of stuff was Seth speaks Seth speaks came out

in the early 70s and I read that and you know a lot of the stuff he said was correct you know was you know we live in a multi-dimensional reality we are fundamentally Consciousness we you know and he had all these things and I said uh that's check check check but then there was other things he said that didn't check and whatever so that was a that was at least a start but certainly not a finish you know at least I found somebody that had some idea of what it was like but not very satisfactory

in the big picture so I just kept working on it and after I left left the Monroe Monroe kind of went off you know on his Direction and I went off on my own Direction moved out of that state went someplace else and uh I just kept working at it all the time you know every night you know times I had you know I go to bed i' do in a meditation State and I'd start doing doing things you know well okay I can understand this Parts but I can't understand what this variable has to

do with it but I know when I change this variable it changes these things so what's going on what's the model so given about 30 years of that research I finally got to the point I thought I understood how Consciousness worked and that's when I wrote my books my books were really a model of Consciousness but I also knew that Consciousness was fundamental and the physical world was not and therefore physics had to be derivable from an understanding of Consciousness because Consciousness is fundamental and the physics has to come out of that so it wasn't

until about 2 or 3 years after my books were published that I made that connection and got the AHA to understand how physics would be derived from that so it took a while I've been learning things ever since you know I I I keep figuring new things out all the time so it's the books have been published now for 20 years yeah you know they were February 20 03 they were published and now we're almost 23 you know so are you planning on wri future books Tom anything in the well I do have a future

book that I've been working on that people keep asking me how's it coming and it's not doing very well because I'm so busy I don't have time my writing of books I have to sit down and have big blocks of time where I'm not you know I'm I'm not interrupted and I'm not engaged in doing other things else but I'm not like that right now I've got you know 20 things to do and I don't have the time to do them all I'm in a constant you know on the treadmill running trying to catch up

to the things that I have to do so I'm not writing any books now but the the the name of it is maybe surprise you and that is Primal man Primal woman it's a book it's a book about gender and essentially if you can strip off all the cultural overlays and just look at male and female in their Primal state without this culture saying this is good and that's bad and so just take all that cultural stuff away from it what do you have in male and female what what are they how do they you

know how are they the same how do they differ what is the you know what is the relationship and how does it work and I've written about 20 Pages which was just a a brief outline so that people would get a little idea of where it was going and that's in my website I think you can go get that at the read that at the website but that's maybe 5% or 10% you know I've got a whole lot more in my head and I continue to work on it all the time you know I get

new insights and kind of learn new things and come to conclusions but I just haven't written any of it down I just wrote that topic at the moment what's what what's drawn you towards this topic oh what's drawn me toward that topic is that the reason I felt compelled to write MBT in the first place about Consciousness is I saw that there was the great majority of people in my culture and probably World culture had no idea why they were here what they were supposed to be doing the nature of the reality they lived in

the nature of the game that they were involved in they were all wandering around as I say clueless you know in the playing field not having any idea what the game was that most of our dysfunction you know power control Force greed all that stuff most of that defun dysfunction was because they didn't understand the nature of reality and how things worked and that if I could if I could spread that information about what is consciousness and what's it trying to do and you know where's it going and what are you really then I thought

it would change the world in the sense that we would produce a Kinder gentler more supportive more sustainable uh world and as we grew up we would also be better caretakers of the environment and of each other so I thought that that information was sorely needed people needed to understand the bigger picture that they were in and why and it's not just that oh love is the answer that's sweet that's nice but you know it's just a saying that people say because it sounds nice but it doesn't really mean anything really the words you know

the world is a is a very a very rough very tough existence where everybody's trying to do control Power Force on everybody else and it's a mean place it's the Mean Streets and it doesn't have to be that way we create it that way that's our creation because that's what we are that's it's all the grown the more grown we are so I saw that in the bigger picture people now would not be able to go to a place if they didn't have a logical scientific road map to get there you know back what a

thousand years ago the high Priests of our culture were priests and it was religion that told people what was right and what was wrong and what to believe and what not to believe and a lot of that turned out to to be control Power and force as well but I knew that just to paint a pretty picture you know we could all just get along better it'd be nice it's totally ineffectual that doesn't do anything that's not going to help anybody everybody go uh-huh uh-huh but that's not the kind of world it is Tom you

know join the real world but if they actually understood what this reality was about the game they were in how it works why it works that way now that's a logical scientific approach that people could buy into because it made sense it explained things and it not only explained things in you know philosophy you know who cares about philosophy but it explained a lot of things in physics and in science and cleared up a lot of problems across the board of all sorts of things made sense like quantum mechanics and relativity and and things evolving

faster than Randomness would allow and I mean there's these zillions of things that happen in our world that have no explanation even simple things like particles tunneling out of into spaces they shouldn't be allowed to be in you know these kinds of things and oh yeah we understand it's part of our science sure they do this well we know they do this but we have no idea exactly why that works and there's a lot of things that we're not sure of we don't know how why quantum mechanics works so quantum mechanics will explain the tunneling

but you can't explain quantum mechanics you know so you still really don't know how the tunneling works you just have this explanation of it but that you know so it's that sort of thing tell me were always a an idealist or were you at some point a materialist who just converted the thought wise I was well you know I started life and I was uh kind of right brained intuitive and uh I was not real intellectual I was more holistic I knew that what I needed to do while I was here was going to require

me to get my left brain you know honed up so I I knew I wanted to do things like in science and you know technical things like that I was p i was one of the kids that had a pension of taking everything apart you know whatever I was around you know flashlights any little things around I'd take them all apart and see what all the pieces did and put them back together and take them apart again so I like causality how things worked I was drawn to that but when I finally got there in

school in college I found math really really hard because that's not the way I thought I thought in Big Picture terms not in little logical you know logical process terms but I just kept working at it until I got good at it eventually I got it and everything sunk in and then it got to be easy you know but it was not easy to begin with so in the beginning I was more right brain more holistic uh big picture then I turned into more left brain more uh materialistic and when I was in graduate school

I would have agreed with the idea that reality uh is best defined by uh what do they call it it's the um it'll come up to me in a minute but anyway if you can't measure it it really doesn't matter anything that's that's real is measurable in other words you have to be able to interact with it that's what I mean by measure you have to be able to physically interact with it in some way if you've got something and there's no way to physically interact with it then that doesn't belong in science that belongs

somewhere else and all of that stuff we throw into somewhere else really is a bunch of nonsense anyway you know that kind of a attitude so yes that was a standard materialist Viewpoint yeah and then in graduate school I had this thing where I could you know I could debug debug code paranormally and that kind of changed my mind and I said oh well this is some really firm evidence that there is something else going on here besides the physical stuff do and then I what do you mean like you could debug code paranormal oh

I don't know you hadn't heard that story I uh found out in graduate school that I first I learned to meditate I learned to meditate so I wouldn't have to get so much sleep because that's what they advertised on their brochure heard you say that I'm not sure if I've heard this this part well I was in graduate school I saw the sign it was on the physics building door and I opened it up and it said learn to meditate $25 for students it was transcendental medication $25 student so they said here's the things you

know be more relaxed you know get more energy not have to sleep as much and I got that not have to sleep as much because I was a graduate student doing doing you know working with the doing in what do we call experimental physics with a big vandag graph generator that shooting particles that smashed and keeping track of the pieces and I was doing that and and when that machine was working you stayed there and took data because it didn't work that long before it broke down you know it was a very complicated machine and

it was old and uh so when the thing was the thing was working and the data was flowing you know you might not get sleep for two or three days you just have to drink coffee and and and take pop caffeine pills and whatever you had to do get your friends to come in and and help you take the data that kind of thing because it's not like well I'll go home and come back in the morning and start it up again no that's about a 10% chance that would work when you start it up

again there'll be a problem with something with something so anyway so I I like that idea of not sleeping so much so I paid my $25 took a banana which was required to uh some guy who gave me a mantra and it just was simple you know the very first time I sat down after he gave me the the Mantra I Disappeared for about 45 minutes and didn't aware you know I thought like maybe 10 15 minutes had gone by and almost an hour had gone by so I said wow that's interesting and the more

I did it the better I got at it and one day I was just in a you know they say meditate twice a day for half an hour that was the that was the rules so I was doing my half an hour thing and I was thinking about my mind wasn't very focused I was thinking about my my work you know the I had to write my own code because all the science is done these days on a computer you know so and I was back in the days of Punch Cards that's how you put

stuff into the computers it's on Punch Cards you'd get a thing back you'd throw in your Punch Cards and it either bomb or it would it would run and when it bombed there were no error messages there's no thing that told you oh it was this line was the problem you know you didn't get any of that in those days what you got was a message that your job bombed that's all the information you got so then you have these card decks of like 2,000 cards and I had like two boxes so I had 4,000

cards and uh they're all in decks and of course it matters what order they're in you can't mess any of the orders up with these cards because they're statements each card is a statement in a program and uh so I was just thinking about had thing bombing I was having trouble figuring out what the problem was where were the errors and as I said that a picture of my print out was up here was like on a scroll and it's was just rolling down in front of me and I could see the print out because

I wrote every line of code so I knew you know I could look at it and until exactly what it was and then here would be a line that was in red and I'd note it I'd say okay that's an error right I got the idea yeah that's an error so I looked at that code and I could remember it you know like I say I wrote every line of it so I knew what every line was and I I found another one and I found about four of them and one of them was not

error in the coding I had done it was an error in the key punch the hole in the card was just a little bit off so that couldn't have been something that was in my mind the other ones maybe my subconscious said that it it remembered that I didn't put that comma after the you know the you know this term or something that it needed in a bomb because it got to that point and there was no comma there no semicolon but that was a key he punch error nothing I did and I took it

in and and cuz I couldn't find anything wrong with it so I took it in and repunched it and worked fine I held the two CS up and here one of them was about a half a millimeter off so you know those are big just mechanical devices they they move around and change some you know with use so I realized that this was information from elsewhere nothing I could possibly have known and that to me I'm a physicist I model reality and my thoughts was wow there's another whole bunch of reality that I didn't even

know existed but it's there so that so that's where I so that was the really converted you to the idealistic so then when I I saw that I said well okay you can measure it that's puts it in this section of our reality but there's another part of our reality that can't be measured CU this was just mental you know all of this was just going on in my mind and yet I had information I couldn't possibly have known that there was a key punch error there that's just impossible and that would have been a

tough one to find too so anyway yes I at that time then uh I was very positive about it and I said well there's another part of reality that is not physical and that is very meaningful because I get this right information you know it's got rules see that's the way physicists think about things it's got rules it's got structure it's not just random you know it's not just a random field of information floating around it obviously has structure and for some reason I got the information that I was thinking about I was intending my

intent was what's wrong what's wrong in this thing well that's a query to the database I know that now I didn't know that then so the fact that I saw my data and it started scrolling down and I saw the red things well that was an answer to my my question so you know I I knew that there was something else going on in the mind that didn't have anything to do with physical reality but I didn't know what I didn't know how I didn't know why I didn't know anything other than that it was

true and then I run I go to I go get a job and my boss hands me Bob and Rose book yeah I've heard this story yeah so I eventually go out and I meet Bob and Bob just built aild to you know to try to study out of body and I said I'm in I'm in you know I want to learn because I know there's something going on out there and I'm very interested but I also was very skeptical and I thought well if this turns out just to be a you know not very

productive then I'm I'm out of here but if it's something that actually helps me understand the things I know to be true which is that there is more to reality than the the physical then wow a great opportunity to learn and I'm going to get as much out of it as I could so which Journey specifically with the TMI and Bob working with Bob are you most proud proud of in terms of your guys work well the thing that had probably the biggest effect was Dennis and I coming up with the with the uh voral

beat because that changed everything suddenly it went from just a couple of people trying to figure things out by themselves to a whole bunch of people getting involved which is actually better you know in the in the long run but it turned into turned into a business and that wasn't so good because then we weren't doing research anymore we were we were you know event you know we were going out doing events everywhere and that's not really what I wanted to be doing I wanted to be figuring out how does this thing work but I

did and I did a lot of experiments while I was there you know I one of the things I learned that was that was that I'm I'm really glad I did I guess proud of I would say and that is that you don't have to go through the fog to get there I had this idea that you get into an you ENT you you meditate and you let the physical go and you kind of it disappears out in the fog and it's not there and you get foggier and foggier because I heard people say that

it's just like falling asleep but not losing Consciousness so I thought I had to get down into this right on the edge of you know losing Consciousness and somewhere there was the transition right on the edge of Consciousness so I'd get down to this place that was I say foggy it's not that there was really fog there but your mental your mental capacity was just just minimal just a thread of awareness still left and that was the place then I could go from there and take that back out to being out of body so I

had to always go to outter body through the fog and I'd get in this fog area and after a couple of minutes the the fog would clear and I'd be someplace else so I never lost Consciousness but I had to start going through the fog and sometimes the the uh out of body thing was a little unclear and a little foggy itself then one day I discovered and this was a just a hunch I had that the fog was unnecessary that that was just a belief I had that it had to go down into the

fog to get rid of the physical so I said well I'll just start just being wide awake I done I'm not going to meditate not going to do anything just going to lie here and then I'm going to start doing all the same things I did when I was went through the fog except I'm not going to go there first here I am wide awake and now I'm going to go heal and I'm going to remote View and I'm going to do all these evidential things and I found out it worked just as well worked

just as well if not better because I didn't need all that time wasted in you know relaxing this relaxing that you know going through the fog deeper and deeper and deeper you know all that was just was ritual it was ritual to get your mind set in a place that you know you could do what you needed to do surpris so then I let go of the ritual and then I knew I could I could go out of body in half a second all you have to do is just shift your intent shift your you

know your data stream it was just that simple and suddenly it just got easier and I could do things while I did other things I could go out of body and talk to somebody at the same time you know and so I started developing a lot more robustness instead of having this very delicate state that you had to get into and hold you know so that you could do this I could I could do it almost anywhere anytime so that was a big breakthrough for me is that it didn't require the fog all you had

to do was take at least a part of your mind I could parallel process it but I could take a part of my mind attached to a different dat stream and fog was not essential to the process neither was relaxation really it was just you had to be able to have a mental discipline that separated parts of your mind that you know kept your own business out of what you know of what you were doing and so on and I practiced those kinds of things so that was kind of a big moment a big moment

for me kind of an aha moment that meant a lot M um other than that doing this work with MBT when I first started writing the book I thought I understood Consciousness but four five six times along that path of writing the book I realized this doesn't make any sense I don't know how to get from A to B I can't do that logically you know it's like you know You' seen the the joke you know where the guy's writing all this math on the board and then there's a little arrow and on the Arrow

it says and then the miracle occurred you know and then you start someplace else you know it sort of like that joke okay I said this won't do you know if I'm going to if I'm going to lead people intellectually and rationally to a better space where they can be more productive and and less negative I can't have these places where then a miracle occurred it has to be logical all the way so then I just spent time working on that problem and working on that problem until I solved it and I did I eventually

I solved all the problems and then I wrote the book but when I thought I knew what I was doing I really didn't there was a lot of I realized there's a lot of fuzzy thinking that we tend to do particularly if we're talking if it's a verbal thing but when you force yourself to write it down writing requires a lot more specificity you have to say exactly what you mean and you can't say things that are fuzzy because when you write down stuff that's fuzzy it's just obviously fuzzy it sticks right out like a

sore thumb whereas in your mind you're saying yeah well it's sort of like this and yeah okay and then we go you know this kind of gloss over stuff so writing it down was very important for me to force me into logical Clarity and uh that took my writing the book took five years you I spent five years and a lot of that was figuring out the things that I hadn't really figured out or thought I had but they weren't really figured out far enough yet and in that process the figuring that out I came

up with the model of information it's all information you know like slap yourself in the head and say well of course it's information you know what else are you aware of other than information look you know I feel I hear what is that it's all just information Consciousness is nothing more than information and then that kind of got me to the next step to the next step and eventually I had it all together and wrote wrote the books but it was a from an informational perspective perspective what what do these binaural beats do what do

they ex what what exactly is occurring when someone's L okay A binal Beat is a beat that you hear because the beat frequency is taking place inside your head now a beat frequency as you know if I have a pure tone here and another pure tone over here and in the air speaker you know and I put a pure by pure tone I mean a single frequency so I have a single frequency here and a single frequency here they'll be exactly the same and there's a resonance I can these are tuning Forks let's say the

things that are tuning Forks okay and that gives you a certain vibration because of the dimensions of the fork so I can just hit this fork and this one will start to vibrate too because it's tuned to that vibration so that's a a resonance you can take this one and the other one will go because it picks up that it's it's made to resonate at that frequency if they're both in the same frequency see now if I have one of these let's say it's 100 Hertz and this one is 104 and I Ting them both

they will beat there will be a beat frequency of 4 Hertz so four Hertz is something like you one 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 You have to say 1 two 3 4 in a second you it's four beats per second so every second if you can say 1 2 3 4 that's how fast they go so it's going one one you know that's a four Herz Peak that's because the sounds mix and where they mix where the waves superimpose you know on each other where the Peaks come together you

get a louder sound where the Peaks are opposite you don't get any sound so you get a beat the louder sounds the beat and then it's a frequency because it goes to zero in between so that's what the beat frequency is so that takes place in air it'll take place in any medium in which the two waves meet okay you can could put these in a piece of metal you could both put a pure tone in this end of a steel bar and a pure tone in that end and and you'd hear the beat frequencies

coming out of the you know of of the bar as those two waves process down the the metal so what happens is you put a Pur tone in this ear and a Pur tone in this ear they get to the Corpus colossum which is the membrane between the two hemispheres and they meet down there and they cause a beat the signals actually interact with each other at the Corpus colossum and what the this guy Oster who wrote an article on Scientific American said that it's been shown that that drives brain frequency you know an EEG

you put an EEG on and you look at all the different frequencies that are being emitted and then you do this binaural beat at 4 Hertz you see out that the brain waves oh they're all over the place you know from high to low and all over and come down and now they kind of Center at four Herz so that was they called was brain wave entrainment and entrain your brain waves to a certain thing well that's what it does and Bob had this one thing that was kind of evidential in his out of body

is that he would feel like a pulsation in his body and he he timed it as best he could and said it was a b four Hertz so we thought well why not we were into trying anything you know we we had no clue what we were doing or what would work so we just were trying everything so we did that we put on the binaural beat and we listen to it and we put it at four Hertz because that's that's where Bob was oscillating right there now why did all that go together we didn't

know but it just seemed like a good thing to do so it was maybe intuitive or maybe it was just luck so we put the binal bead on at for Hertz and sure enough puts you into a Theta State then we find out later that that Theta state is exactly the place where people who've been meditating for a long time their EG energy settles down to that Thea State you know so you go get some monks out of a monastery someplace and wire them up with the EG and you'll find before before you know they

they start meditating their brain WS like everybody else and then after they meditate all down here for her so and if they were new it wasn't nearly as strong as if they had been meditating a long time you know the the old monks that were really good at it they really narrowed down to you know to just just a couple of frequencies in that in that pulse and so we figured well that's good you know meditation that's kind of how you get these Altered States it's good idea four Hertz that's what Bob felt was that

vibration and we indeed had also felt the 4 Herz vibration cuz by then and we had also been able to just do that on our own through meditation and you know that that 4 Herz beat was was a signpost for us that we were at the right place so we started uh playing with the binaural beats different base frequencies different way you know we tried sine waves and you know triangle waves and all kinds of things to see if we couldn't optimize it and we finally got a you know a set of Bin beats that

were optimal Bob wasn't even there then he was given a course someplace in CLE he was gone for a couple of weeks when he came back we had already had an optimized uh Boral beat for him and he really liked it and then we started bringing people in just people off the street and saying here just listen to this and tell us what happens you know and a lot of them just you know went out into amazing spaces and some of them just fell asleep uh but it affected everybody almost and then we had some

monks come through can't remember I think they may have been Tibetan on some sort of tour or whatever and they heard of Bob and Rose so they stopped and and uh Bob took them all up to the lab and said here listen to our sound and see what you think of the sound and these monks came out and they said that's amazing they said where that sound puts you very quickly is where it took us about 10 years of meditation to get to where we could do that on our own so they were real impressed

they said yeah s you right into the right into the zone you want to be in and holds you there really well so we were at the time where was anyone else doing this was were were Bal beats being used by any okay not that I could tell no we didn't see anybody else doing this we just had this article short article on Scientific American in probably the N late 1960s early 70s that dentist happened to run across and it just said Boral beats and here's what they are and they seem to drive uh e

EG output Drive brain waves and train brain waves and that's all nobody really knew what to do with it or anything so it was just a curious fact that somebody had come across and figuring it had something to do with the waves being created in the Corpus goosam was what was you know the active thing that was going on so in essence all videos and like content online that comes with with these binal beads trying to assist people to meditate sleep Etc it's technically coming from you guys in a sense veryy much pretty much yeah

we we started it and it got to be such a big deal that a lot of people started doing it um because it's it's there's do there's content everywhere regarding that that con yeah I I have my own binar beats that uh if you go to my website you can find them you know I don't they don't cost very much you know $25 $30 or or something you get a whole bunch of them and uh all kinds of different base frequencies cuz different people relate better to different Bas frequencies so it's just out of my

you know 40 years experience with them I kind of put these together as as optimal and uh they work really well everybody that listens to them they almost always just zip into a meditation State very quickly and it holds in there every once in a while one out of maybe two or 3 hund people really just unlike them they have a problem with them I think they're afraid I think they have a fear that this is some going to do something to them it doesn't do anything to you it gives you an opportunity to have

experiences like you've been meditating for a decade but it doesn't you know there's no residual effect or anything that happens so it's not a it's not a scary thing but some people just don't like it but they're very very few not almost everybody does like it very much I'll put a link to that down below Tom again once again I mean it's it's it's so incredible to hear these stories I mean that's a pretty that's that's such a big deal because you know how much people use these nowadays and it's such a profound tool for

a lot of people so I can IM I will definitely put a link to that below once again Tom thanks so much it's it's it's been such an incredible journey again because it's past midnight I don't I don't want to give you my worst version so dra cut and then follow up again with the round three and then touch on specific aspects because what I'm what I'm thinking would be a great idea moving forward would be I tailor a bunch of questions curate a whole bunch of perhaps counterarguments questions and concerns regarding the theory of

everything and then we go through a whole round just discussing all of those what do you think about that oh sure that's fine that's fine mostly I find that you the the concept of of reality that I have you know it solves it solves the uh the physics problem with you know how does quantum mechanics work you know it solves that problem and it solves a lot of other problems too but the physicists aren't too interested because it's not Material you know it's they want a materialist theory that solves their problem not some other problem

which they don't give much Credence in I think the irony is that you are a physicist yeah well that's I don't know but anyway it's not it's not that hard to understand I mean I just gave a what a 20 minutes I gave the whole overview of it just today but so anybody can understand that but it that's not really understanding it that's like intellectually getting some of it you have to really one you have to do it you have to be it you have to do these paranormal things and realize that real you know

just like I did when I was reading that stuff and I found out that you know these lines were the ones and it turned out those were exactly the cars that were the problem and I fixed all that and it ran and I started using that you know every time you know I'm making Chang and changing cards and you know that was my way of doing things and I was much faster at finding ARS than anybody else you know but it wasn't because I was clever than anybody else I just had this trick that was

using my intuitive side to come up with that but anyhow it's a it's a simple enough idea and once you understand it so simple that suddenly everything all the questions you have about how things work and what's going on and they just all fall out there simple explanations elegant explanations for all of them but even though in 20 minutes 23 minutes I could explain it that doesn't help anybody understand it you can get that explanation and you still don't have a clue what's going on you it takes most people at least four or five months

of actively thinking about it trying to trying to justify in their mind how it works you know and that's a struggle because everything in your life all of your culture tells you that that's not right that's not the way the world Works you've got this bias toward materialism not because somebody taught a course on materialism but because it's just your culture that's part of our Collective Consciousness you take that in and you can't help it you know so you look at it and you say oh here's a problem okay here's a problem and it doesn't

do this but the problem is that what you're doing is you're coming with an assumption based on materialism and you're saying that that doesn't work and you're right that doesn't work but that's not what the model's about you just interpret it that way because that's where your patterns all go to they go to materialism for for things like how do things work but that's what makes it hard it's not that the concepts hard the concepts simple and easy but to into to get it to where you own it and you really understand it one you

need to apply it you need to apply it show yourself that this paranormal stuff actually is real don't believe me that won't get you anywhere believing me is is irrelevant you have to go do it you know that's why I made tools at my you know in my websites you can find tools for doing that but so one you have to get into it to enough that you can do it that's not that hard you can do paranormal things not they're not that hard to do they're not like you have to work for you know

20 years to to do that you just have to get rid of your beliefs all of your beliefs start fresh and just try a little bit and you'll see they'll fall out what you're doing is developing your intuitive side a little bit and the hard thing will be getting your intellectual side to sit down and leave you alone because it'll always want to jump in to the process because it's dominant your intellectual side is like this powerful and your intuitive side is like you know that powerful and that intellect always wants to jump in and

fix it so that would be the problem so I find that people it takes them years before they really get it that's why understand it I love this idea of podcasts nowadays because just having these long form discussions particularly this type of long form discussion for me personally has been very helpful to to allowing myself to expose myself to certain theories understandings of reality cuz as I said the last time I mean if this was 20 years ago 10 years ago I would never even be able to have this conversation with someone yes who's an

idealist in general it would have just been completely over the head top of the head for me it would have been absurd bizarre uh completely crazy once you those it's it's as I said before it's micro steps you got to take it slowly take it in doses bance is is key it takes time so it actually takes a couple of years before you comfortable with it that you just think in those terms and everything makes sense you know all those things that didn't make sense before just make sense and that takes a long time so

it's not an easy thing to explain to somebody okay 23 minutes I can kind of give a hands of but that doesn't help they don't understand it they have no idea because they have all these beliefs that run counter to it and those beliefs just get in the way and they'll find a a hundred critical problems with it but every critical problem are to be their Assumption of some kind of material thing and they can't help it I mean they know that that's a problem they're aware of that's a problem but they can't get past

it because it's just inate to them to think that way so that's the problem is it's a simple thing but it's a really difficult thing that you're going to have to work for before you get it because it is just so counter to the way you think and to what you believe that it you just have to work through all of that belief and discard it and that's hard to do you just don't rip your beliefs up because you think you want to it's a difficult thing to do in this case Tom I think the

benefit would be is well me hosting this show as opposed to a random question generator the nice thing is I'll be able to curate those those questions and and sort of sift through the ones who are unable to to do that get some of those questions that do have that skeptical element because of the materialism because it will help the conversation flow but the nice thing will be is that I'll actually tailor it according to those who are curious beyond the material and and and hopefully have another wonderful discussion because it's it's always a fascinating

Journey For Me Yeah I think it'll be fun you know I think it's good if you if you can uh keep enough of your people interested long enough for them to actually get it then that will be that will be good which you know if even only two or three people get it that's good too you know it's it's it's not it's not like you have to make everybody see it quantity sometimes you just gotta got to get those those red gems on involved then I've got something coming out uh that you'll probably see in

another three or four weeks uh I've got something coming out in a couple of weeks that is uh it's not long it's only about 20 minutes so it's something that people can actually watch and it gives a history of kind of qu of physics kind of a you know a physics history kind of philosophy a science kind of thing and it looks at Quantum quantum physics and starts in the 1920s where or 1915 1925 in that that decade where quantum theory was coming together and what physics did with that and and kind of through the

process up to today and it's uh I think that's pretty interesting cagen interpretation you're going to go through that whole journey yeah because you know I don't know if I've mentioned this but what my what what my uh derivation you know I said that I dare I derive physics what I get is the Copenhagen results that's what I get so my model says Copenhagen results were the Real Results they were absolutely right you didn't podcast but I have I have seen you say that before yeah but the but science uh con physics has kind of

gotten away from that because the Copenhagen results were too woo woo there was too much stuff there then Consciousness was a problem and so they wanted to get away from that so you can see the steps that they took and and the process they made to to to kind of slip away from Copenhagen because Copenhagen was embarrassing had all these people you know asking them questions about what does conscious have to do with it and they just didn't know the answers and they didn't like the answers they wanted it to be materialism that was straightforward

you know uh materialism and they weren't able to do that so anyhow they did throw away at Copenhagen Copenhagen is not uh in high regard anymore that's that's been thrown out so my little talk is about all the history of that and how that worked and where it is and so on and I I think your people would probably find that to be interesting so in about actually I've got it done and I already have the video but I'm going to have some kind of an event in a couple of weeks and I want to

kind of do the the the first showing there you know with the and then after that it'll go up on YouTube it's about 20 minutes what is it is Tom is it like a documentary is it a you giving lecture series what what is it it's me it's me talking okay no nice I have some I have I have some slides so it's not just talking head there's some slides to it and and uh it's just me talking explaining that Century you know what what did that Century from you know 1915 to 1920 to 2015

to you know 2020 2025 we not quite a century entirely away from that what did that how did physics evolve throughout that throughout that Cent century and why where did it where did it go I'll definitely put a link in this video as well once once I think you I think you'll find that to be very interesting because they will see the once you understand that story then it will be easier for you to let go of materialism because you'll kind of see where the you know where where it went wrong and and uh you'll

see also some of some of the successes of the of the uh I give a whole list of long successes which are paradoxes that got answered you know by by this this theory that otherwise don't have any answers you know they're just Mysteries so it's a I think it's not that deep and it's most people will get it right away and it's only 20 minutes long so it's a good intro to this to this subject now you're digging a lot deeper into it with our with our talks but this is a good introduction I think

it'll be I think they'll enjoy it I think that sounds like a wonderful concept as well and I'll definitely have a link to to that thanks again Tom thank you so much I appreciate your time always uh you're welcome Dev it's uh I enjoy talking with you and I appreciate you your time too because you're going to spread this out and hopefully we'll get some people to yeah get a bigger get a bigger picture I think the world needs [Music] it [Music] [Music]