Can Christians and Ex-Christians See Eye to Eye? | Middle Ground

let me say something that you might not like I think all four of you know that God really exists I think you do know you don't want it to be true that's putting I said you might not like it right we are approaching the 150th episode of middle ground and we need your help to continue making more episodes join our middleground patreon community and make middle ground with us Christianity is the only true religion can the agers please step forward it's kind of interesting because there are so many religions but and I don't even consider

myself religious I consider myself a child of God I have a relationship with Jesus so I would say the only true way to heaven the only true way to Eternal everlasting life is Christianity well I'm surprised that all of us came forward because uh well I'm a pastor so that's expected of me but I've noticed that it's such a hard thing to say today rather than it was like 30 years ago because you so many people get offended I mean you didn't say anything else except Jesus is the only way and right there people don't

want to talk to you right it's really true true for me I think um all religions teach you to do well um but Christianity is the only religion that teaches you you can't do it without God you can't do it without Jesus so for me I couldn't get out of my depression I couldn't get out of my loneliness I could only maintain um I needed something to save me pull me out of that and so you know I grew a Buddhist but uh with Christianity I was able to really step out of that frame of

thinking of I'm My Own God I have to take care of my own issues and God was the one that helped me in everything praise be to God Amen I mean I really don't want to seem like my religion is better than yours kind of deal it's simply what Jesus claimed for himself yeah so you know can the disag reers please join if we like reflect on the aspect of the only true religion or the only true religion for me it it it's it's a sleeper slope because if you substitute religion with nationalism we can

all of the sudden see the problems with it you know I get it I think that religion organized religion can cause a lot of ISS the message of Jesus Christ the embodiment of love right but yeah I truly believe in my heart I do not think people that do not know him are just going to burn in the fiery pits I don't think it's that black and white but yes I truly do believe it's he Jesus Christ is Christianity is the only way my Epiphany was like walking down Route 101 in in Pennsylvania and thinking

oh my God this idea behind Christianity is that everyone that doesn't just Ascent believe in this one thing they're going to burn forever mhm and that was like my Epiphany like oh man I I you know it is fun not fun it is fulfilling to have a very black and white way of looking at the world right that I remember how great that felt but also like my Epiphany is oh there has to be more in the world in the universe than that that can't be the end of it like that I mean that might

be like an all- knowing god but that's not an all loving God you know it can't be all you know yeah I was going to say I'm so jealous that you guys feel like it's the only religion like I felt I wish I felt that way still but um I just don't know anything and there's millions of religions how can you say 100% that it's the only true one you can't but I know in your hearts you can and I wish I had that so bad but I I just don't it's like this in answer

to your question I mean I haven't studied every religion to say this is wrong this is right but I do know that Jesus is real based on what he's done in my life and I know the Bible is real based on archaeology and prophecy and Jesus says he's the only way so I I'll believe him I mean he could be lying I could be wrong what if I said that toes special Jesus proved himself to me by saving me by doing miracles in my life what if I yeah but that's anotal you haven't saved me

what if I do though what if he does what if anybody else you should I believe that you experience that and and that it's powerful and if if that makes you a better human being fantastic the issue is that it's anecdotal to go to your to to what you were saying how can you prove without just the basis of faith that this is the absolute truth Christian apologetics like right but the Christian apologetics disagree in a bunch of of different aspects you know and unique no they don't actually well they they do you know and

you really need to focus on whether you are going to theologically accept the Bible as the absolute document of Truth what are you gonna Sherry pick from it what are you gonna accept as oh this was just a historical thing you're saying when J said you know you can't change an Iota here it's hard because like I feel like I'm hyper liberal too and stuff because I'm like you know what I mean and stuff but then I know right but then it's like it's kind of true to a degree like sometimes I I don't honestly

feel like I cherry pick from the Bible like I'm like well they still eat shellfish so I can be with them you know what I mean it's so tough because it's like I only know how to love a man as much as I would love to be what normal is this is just who I Who I Am normal I want to know why selfish keep coming up in these debates it's a weird entry in the Bible That's why very very bizarre well there's things that we were meant to abstain from and then there was a

time when God said everything is clean so I mean that's the thing is like if you're act if you're actually studying as far as food if you're actually studying the Bible and if if you're actually looking into the history the science the theology about that that's where you're going to get your questions answered but if you don't I am still ignorant of of the Bible like I'm not it's only been like maybe seven years for me and stuff and uh I admit I could probably learn so much from you and stuff just from hearing how

you speak about it seems like you're very knowledgeable and stuff so I have 28 years of the Bible and I still don't fuing understand it it's very contradictory there's other books you guys it's okay the Bible is always is open to interpretation sorry the Bible is so confusing every Christian Cherry picks everybody does you're not supposed to lie you lie yeah so how can you not interpret it in so many ways and it's been obviously transcribed so many times you know adding the word homosexual and all this and it's just the doctrine of hell not

very clear 100% it's all just a if you look at the god that's portrayed in the Old Testament and the New Testament both it looks a lot more like us than it looks like an all knowing all good kind of situation you're like oh yeah this totally came to uh get people to cooperate with the power you know jealousy Vengeance these are human qualities my my argument or my issue with uh interpreting is that you know we as human beings that's what we do you know we have something and we have to interpret it my

issue is it all boils down and distilled to is it Divine or is it not and am I allowed to pick things out or am I not you know there are so many issues with the with the claim of divinity because it's not that it's open to interpretation it's that it's always being interpreted there are conclaves you know so languages yeah you know that are built just to do that you know to to decide which book goes in which book comes out you know yeah Martin Luther took out like 10 books or something and they're

like why'd you do that and he's like that's not what God wanted it's like okay Martin Luther yeah one of the biggest reasons why I steep forward is again because I think it's a guideline not an absolute it was tough for me because I'm very much like you know I believe in Jesus Christ and whatever God says he wants and it's tough to even realistically do that every day like every day I sin because I kiss this man that I love and like then I jump on a box and go to only fans. you know

what I mean like it's it's tough feeling like everything that you do that's just a everyday thing and it has zero to do with how you treat people at the end of the day the rainbow that it gets to and stuff and pot of gold is that Jesus Christ is all loving he loves everybody he hung out with someone who was like me like a hey don't s and was still was like Hey you you're still can be this good person don't let the world tell you this and but I believe that in some way

the Bible is telling you that is telling you like this is hey it's okay to not be this I think it's maybe organized religion that gets it muffled and there's all this hate towards everyone cuz I'm like I'm sorry I don't think that Jesus Christ hated trying to organize all of the Bible and make it make sense that's going to fail not very clear whether it's telling us to do good things or do bad things it has kind of a combination of both in there thank you I'm actually glad that you brought up the whole

translations thing because that is something that I used to question as well and once I looked into it every modern translation of the Bible is actually translated from Greek Hebrew or Aramaic which are ancient languages so it's not that we're just continuing to translate from whatever was Modern to another modern like no and that's why if you've ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls it's ancient text from the Bible where if you were to compare it to the Bible today only things different is like punctuation well that's amazing because that was one of the most

amazing discoveries of this Century in that they discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls and they thought they would correct all these mistakes in the Bible but it was so amazing that 99.999% was accurate so they were amazed second Peter 1:20 tells us that no scriptures for interpretation so it's actually for us to accept rather than understand and for me personally like when I try to understand so I have a kid when he was 5 years old I tried to explain to him like mortgage I had money in my pocket I was still poor I was living

in the projects right my kid was like let me get bubble gum and I was like I can't I don't have enough money I don't want to like buy him the clothes I couldn't buy him the clothes but in his mind he was understanding it as dad you don't love me right and I'm like but I do love you as much as I explained it to him he couldn't understand it he was very miserable because of that Bible tells us at least for me that we're all children in God like we we're not we're finite

beings we cannot understand infinite things so when I when I learned to stop trying to understand rather and just accept then I was able to truly be free for me personally that's like growing up it was like I would ask my parents CU my parents are super religious trumpers borderline Q andon scary 2024 come and um I was terrified of the Rapture anytime I said anything about the Rapture it's always just like well you're thinking with your human brain you're not thinking with your heavenly brain I'm like but I only have a human brain like

I can only understand what I can understand here can I ask you something too I wanted to know like so do you believe like say if someone's kind and treats people right and it's a really good-hearted soul but say they really don't believe in anything perhaps God right do you believe that they're going to burn just because they don't believe I think that God invites us all to have a life with him in eternity and I think a lot of times we're like he's just want to throw people in hell but he's like if you

want to be with me in eternity these are the qualifications Jesus is the only that's but terms and yeah you think they'll burn in say yes the good person will burn in hell if they don't know Jesus yes they will not be with God for eternity so that makes me not want to know that guy I think step back a little bit because we've been dancing around it a little bit but I relating to the prompt though I I would like to know how you became exch Christians I think that might help us yeah that

would be really nice by reading the Bible okay I think do you mind if I ask if you have a religion I do not have any organized religion I don't really believe in anything Supernatural I I am technically part of the satanic temple uh we only have seven rules we don't have an entire book we don't need to is that considered a religion I'm just curious it is technically considered an religion a religion but it's like the religion to end all religions they really hate organized religion they kind of want to just have everybody um

focus on Humanity putting differences aside treating each other with respect I guess what I'm asking is uh so there was a time when you called yourself a Christian how did you become an ex-christian what made that change so it all started when my family uh I was 22 years old I I started asking like specifically like if you want an example of something the Bible says in Exodus 20 these are the Ten Commandments and then it lists things that God only verbally spoke but then later if you go to Exodus 34 it mentions The Ten

Commandments and they're a little bit different I would encourage you to go look at Exodus 34 especially uh the 10th commandment do not boil a goat in your mother's in its mother's milk that's a fun one we should be adhering to that today right well if Jesus never came and created a New Covenant then yeah there's a lot of things we'd still be doing sure those are part of the 613 laws which is called the Mitzvah and um people don't know that we're not under those laws anymore we're also not under pretty much any law

because it says Romans 6:14 we're free right we're free from from from the law I mean that's just one example if you really want to focus on the things that most Christians say should be relevant that would be the gospels right you guys would agree with that absolutely right so let's look at all four gospels let's compare them to one another and tell me that there are not contradictions in them that one event happened and also the simultaneous other event happened like was Judas did he die in the desert or did somebody kill him like

it never says anybody killed him it says he hung himself yeah he hung himself he fell head long right and then yeah or was he killed by the the people that he was paid off by we could have a NPI theological discussion with could but I also want to know so your other your experience is that similar difficulty with the Bible so you kind of walked away so my I talked about my Epiphany experience but also when I came out to my mom you know I went to uh you know Christian Camp and Bible College

when I came out to my mom she ripped up my birth certificate and sent it to me my which is very like you know I said to my therapist I was like oh that that was so passive aggressive my therapist like no no that was aggressive no passive but um you know we came to find each other I was the only of her five kids that was holding her hand when she died you know um you know we prayed together but that that experience was one of the ones where I was like it's not just

about me I actually I lost two partners in a row to cancer which is just you know kind of horrible yeah but I know that there is something that I have faith in and it's not Christianity and it's not God but that I was the right people to sit with both those women as they died right and that is like what I have faith in I wish that I still had Christianity I wish that that was something that I could still stomach because like I mean except for you saying you like Trump like I think

we would have a lot of fun right like I actually I already like Trump doesn't have to come I love Trump you don't got to be there so you know I still have that faith I just wish it could come in a Christian package but that just does not work for me I feel like the world is too big for that you know and and I see your reaction when she mentioned the birth certificate most of the good uh Christian friends that I have react the same way as you do and the problem is that's

the norm her experience in Christian households is the norm that's crazy it's the norm I I came out to my family I am a happily married man for 15 years and I my family hates me because of that you know there there's a a an issue with that so that becomes the norm and when when that's the norm you need to really question yeah you know what's happening in there so I feel like a lot of people think that Christians are allowed to judge and if they don't read the Bible they don't understand that we're

not allowed to judge um so that's why a lot of this sounds like like kind of your personal problems with your families who claim to be Christian and this is no disrespect but if you really are Christian you're not called to judge anybody we're all interconnected by sin if I stand in front of God as a ex gang member and you stand in front of God as a homosexuality we're both on the same level so we have to recognize that so I do agree with with people when they say you know the community here when

they're saying that you know Christianity and people try to act as holier than thou that's not what true Christianity 100% I'm just hearing you said my mom wasn't a good Christian now I'm mad at you for that yeah like I my mom was a good Christian she was doing what her I mean maybe a little dramatic right it seems a little gay to rap up you know some oh my God you know but my mom was a good Christian like she was doing what she thought she needed to do to keep me from going to

hell like she no joke that's what she thought was the most loving thing in that moment if I may add if I may add to that that what you what you said is correct you know if you want to be a rightful uh you know correct Christian you're not called to judge the problem is going back to what I mentioned it's the norm so we need to ask ourselves what is happening with the majority of Christians uh families or households that are all reacting like could just go talk to your people please that would be

great believe me I do yeah I know you do hey I know this discussion can feel like a lot thankfully our partner for this video the Skylight app has simple no fuss spiritual exercises that can work for anybody religious or not here let me take you through some affirmations I learned things are neither good nor bad they just are I can feel the stress flowing out of me as I slow down and focus on my breath I can get through anything with the help of my higher power with each breath I let go of my

stress I will overcome this stressful situation as I turn toward that higher power whatever that higher power may be my anxiety turns to patience the Skylight app has tons more exercises like this and it's all totally free check them out at skylight. org thanks so much to Skylight for sponsoring this portion of the episode now let's get back to it you can be gay and Christian I feel that you need to start please well this huh obviously in stuff I'm a big old uh fruit cake I bartend in night life I go- go dance I

do adult content I love it I love having sex with wom which almost sounds bad now that I'm saying out loud it's amazing but I uh I still love the Bible I treat people with respect I uh go to confession I do all these things I love my lgbtqia community and I'm a gay man a big o fruit and I love it so going to say one of the reasons I became an ex-christian was because I met gay people because I grew up in a Christian small conservative town and my parents like pushed it into

me they're like what are the two things we vote on as Christians and I'd have to say abortion and gay marriage like brainwash so I met gay people and I was like why did my parents say you're bad you know and it's like it's just crazy just living life is how I became an ex-christian and just I hate the fact that like my mom says you can be gay you just can't act on it and I'm like so you want someone to go their whole life without loving someone and people kill themselves because of that

for me I just think it's kind of pervy that there is this thought that he is so involved in what you do in bed Christians are involved in people's beds well the reason I'm sitting here I think I also probably before the other two join us I think I'm probably in line with them too I'm just answering the prompt in that can a gay person believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for his sins and that he is risen again that Jesus is God yes yes definitely and can go to heaven and I and

I'm a Christian and I think most of us don't care about what people do in their bedrooms but we do care about other people saying no no your God says this is okay when the Bible strictly says it's homosexuality is sin how does that make you feel when he says that when they say again interpreting right so they have it interpreted saying that they meant mainly when it was older men having sex with young men because there wasn't a word to translate for uh just something else like men and yeah so I don't believe he

necessarily meant being in love with a man or a woman with a woman and sub so I believe is for men with younger men who didn't couldn't determined didn't have a choice I've heard that before and I speak Greek and I read and write Greek and if you look at that passage in Romans chapter 1 it's not about the word it actually describes men having sexual acts with other men I'm going to burn in the fiery no but God forgives yeah he does he does I believe you have a real faith in Jesus of your

sin I love Jesus Christ and I know that the Bible's not going to change for me too like I know that if this is truly a sin then I have to answer to that when I go it's not there's nothing I can do also there's nothing I want to do though I love who I love and I truly believe Jesus Christ the embodiment of love is like I get it I feel like he's always kind of like letting me know like I'm glad you're you're you're on the right path all I agree with you I

think that's you know if you're going to practice something at least practice a good part of it I love to hear this I believe the Bible I believe what it says and I also understand in the Bible that it says that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God or take or have any part of it and it lists a lot of different sins and I think that there's a difference between people falling short we all do we all make mistakes we all struggle we're all figuring out our identity all of that yeah but

when it for me the difference is if you are purposely day in and day out saying this is what I want to do and this is how I want to live my life and it goes completely against the word of God that's when I feel you have you have separated yourself from the Lord and you will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven do you have gay friends I do not have gay friends I barely have friends period but I can't see that I actually SE think that you would be around a lot of people

cuz you're so bubble gummy and warm friend I know be gay friend there was a time though the reason why that happened I'm not trying to get being on Mory or something but like I've had friends but what I noticed is I was attracted to a lot of toxic friendships that were very one-sided so what I had to do is like get rid of that and God actually called me to be closer to him I entered into Ministry I do YouTube stuff but anyways so now is the time I have a church Community I have

friends but it's I for me a friend is someone who also draws me closer to Christ do you think that I truly will go to even though I'm Catholic and I practice just because I love a man cuz I can't like I can't I'll be miserable like I've tried being alone and it's hard you know I want someone that's there that I I want to love and I want to take care of them and I want to provide for him and do all that and all I want to do is have someone like everyone else

and I don't think that Jesus Christ wants me not to but I don't think loving anybody is wrong but we're talking love and sexuality are two different categories and I know that the Lord believes in Christian marriage man and woman who are monogamous and who are not going to be cheating on each other fornicating all that stuff so with you honestly I'm just going to go a little off script I know you're searching I know you are I and I know you mean it and I know that there's things that you feel like you can't

change yeah and know that you have a genuine sorry I know I know what you're saying cuz I can see in you you you remind me of my grandma and I say this in this way because she's hyper Christian and she feels like if she starts approving or liking something like this it's tough because you're like if I like if I love someone who does this it goes against my faith but all you want to do though you're like this person's cool I get along with them they're not going to they're we're going to the

same place right do you feel that you're searching I don't think that I'm searching what would you to say to him when he says I'm not searching I feel that I found well the thing I was going to go forward and say is I do believe that you want to please the Lord and I know that you're thank you so he's that enough I know that you feel like you can't change and there's a lot of people like that heavy breaths heavy size oh my gosh she said that I know that you feel that you

can't change can we get to the root of why homosexuality is wrong so and it goes against God's designed for family so here's the here's the thing right guys um I think we're focusing too much on this thing that's like so for me sin is more of like a virus right there's symptoms of this virus right gay virus right so no it's not a gay virus what I'm saying is I'm trying to make a differentiation between sin and what we think is actual sin right so if if it enters our body and we have a

fever let's say runn nose fever sore throat if I take Tylenol and I take aspirin my fever will suppress right but if I don't attack the virus at its core then it'll keep still popping up do you guys understand what I'm saying with the with does analogy relate to what's wrong he's getting to the point so I'm getting to the point true sin like a like I said is it's a virus it stems from unbelief it stems from trusting and believing in myself right so I knew for example that you can't just kill people but

I was like you know what I'm going to be a gang member my dad beat me he was an alcoholic my mom all of that was an excuse right I chose like she was saying right so I chose I'm going to follow my thoughts and believe in myself do you guys understand and from that I became a gang member when I lived my own way and I trusted my own self essentially being my own God when you trusted yourself yes another decision I'm I'm I'm I'm really sorry I'm really really sorry everything that you're bringing

up to the table are decisions when did you chose to be gay right no I did not there was no choice for me you can't help who you fall in love with right and like say if you are are you biracial if you don't mind me asking yeah so ditto and stuff and uh you know like uh at some point maybe our parents and stuff right people are like how dare you be with this you know our grandparents you know what I mean and so but it's like you can't help who you love and you're

not supposed to but people told them they were supposed to so I can't help who I fall in love with and I'm not supposed to because Jesus Christ he did all these things with people that were very not uh they're all supposed to go to hell Jus didn't follow the Bible not very he was he was extr follow he was extremely kind and loving to everybody and said no matter what and stuff just just trust in my heart do you understand that he also is saving people healing them and also saying go and send no

more he wasn't saying let's all party and let people like to say he's L someone though isn't isn't partying and having a good time being like at the bar that's having like companionship and love compion saying even the woman who was caught in adultery he wasn't saying don't throw a stone at her you're okay keep doing that he was like stop that don't do that anymore he was saying don't be a harlot or don't be extra about it right and stuff but me there is nothing he made me this way there is I can do

how many testimonies have you seen G in the LGBT we can agree to disagree how many you can't disagree though about my life though we can argu we can argue the can hypothetically I'm not that I was born this way you say what do you say about all of the people who have come out of the LGBT lifestyle and have said this is where it started I can pinpoint something happened I can pinpoint a trauma I can pinpoint they weren't just their story let's accept it let's accept it as true let's just give that as

true what makes the other thing false right 100% like I don't understand have you can go through trauma and whoa yeah that made you whoever you are that's not my story that's and I'm still who I'm still glad your life was really great well I don't think we could just focus just on homosexuality for two hours well that was the prompt but uh I don't know Jake I don't know his experience and I can't judge his heart but if Jake really believed Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior dying on the cross for his sins

yes I think God will work in his heart I mean there are sins in my life that I haven't repented of I'm not perfect either I think I think in heaven no one is gay yes gay people can become Christians and go to heaven but in heaven what I'm so sick of Christians comparing like they say all sin is equal they don't believe that like lifestyle it's a day-to-day thing if I'm always lying I'm always cheating I'm I have no I have those things are bad those are decision why is being gay bad and again

those are decision to murder question violence I stud theology for many for you is it purely just cuz it's in the Bible like not when you see me like if you saw me kiss a a guy or like hold hands you don't come off this way as someone who seems like that's offputting to you it's not because of that it's because well theologically I don't know why the Bible is against it I don't know why God says these things then ask those questions the Bible is clear in saying this is God's standard and I don't

I I don't understand the whole Mind Of God well why don't you understand about there's a design for family you could say it's about the natural order of creation that you know of procreation and and how God made things the way they are end now that's my interpretation I can't say 100% that that's what I want not even nature that doesn't even Happ in nature I can't think for God but I do know what the Bible is clear in its teachings don't question would you be what's on your mind um no I mean I I

do really feel for you because I do understand that that this it sounds condescending to say but I understand you believe that the Bible says is being gay is wrong like I get like and that is how I always felt growing up and what I watched is as like clearly gay people of my generation I watch them kill themselves I watch try I've watch them try to be different I watch them live lives of just complete desperation I watch them have get married to women and have sex on the side like I watch them I

watch these beautiful people these beautiful like loving people made of love and who had so much to give the world try to subvert a an important part of themselves to fit into this idea like this one or two lines from the Bible and as I said that as I said when you mentioned uh testimony and I said that was anecdotal I will also come back and say that's also anecdotal but we can go then back to the legislation if you have a fundamentalist person that believes that that's wrong and they manage to get into the

legislature they will pass a bill against it so we're not e we're not uh in a in a plane field for equality for all so the fact that you have even if you don't understand where it comes from the fact that you have that belief and you will force yourself into government to then decide for other people I don't understand it's just it's a big no you know cuz I truly do feel God enjoys love I prayed and prayed and prayed to find love and stuff and I was like I'm so lonely and it's like

I'm getting to that place where I might have that with someone and I feel so happy and this guy goes he's Catholic he goes to church and he goes to confession and he loves these things and it makes me feel so good do you feel like part of that relation relationship was filling a hole and a void that maybe Jesus could have filled maybe if you focus on that first question CU I've been focusing on it for about I've been single for about like seven years your Jesus hole is filled already with Jesus itself right

Jesus is inside the hole excuse me Lord oh my god oh man in the past I've experienced unexplainable Supernatural events come on let's go let's go I've questioned if what I believe is true that's the nature of knowledge is all about that's the nature of knowledge reality look at that a middle ground look at that I even question like being an ex-christian sometimes I call myself a hopeful agnostic I sure as H something's out there because that's really depressing if there's not but if there isn't that's cool too I just yeah like obviously we all

became ex-christians because we started questioning what we believe and I think that's really important to like solidify your faith as well like on your side too yeah thank you for saying that because that is true like that is something me questioning is something that has solidified my faith a lot more finding information about like the evidence of Christ the evidence of God cuz I feel like honestly you'd be lying to yourself if you didn't say that it took Faith to believe in anything it takes Faith to believe in the Big Bang it takes Faith to

believe that there's this void out here there why would you say that because you don't know Were You There When The Big Bang happened we don't need to be there we have likelihood were you there we don't need to be there we can measure that light from the from the science keep changing it changes like every year after we discovered we were wrong because of the same way neonian physics Chang into Einstein the same way things evolve knowledge keeps on growing the the the huis of Christianity to say we have everything figured out and everything

is true science has humbleness to say we know only this and we keep on researching to to grow our knowledge science doesn't claim to know everything your belief system does claim to know everything and doesn't move off of that point science keeps updating making itself more and more accurate that's the the beauty of life that's the beauty of living is to keep learning and I think that's crazy so to keep saying that every time something changes that we thought to be true this is awesome we were wrong we we thought that we didn't need to

wash our hands before surgery yeah and then all of the sudden I'm glad that we discovered that then all of the sudden we we discovered the microbes and how that affected you know the health of of the body and then all of a sudden stop saying you know then just be like we we never said we knew we said we were humble in science to know that we know what we know and we're constantly trying to grow that knowledge we don't have the hubris to say we know everything I think it's so important to be

like know everything either I can't prove that God exists but I also can't prove that he doesn't exist I love that you said that and I appreciate that like and I hope you all say that too like you can't 100% prove God I agree that's what faith is speaking about belief um I've spoken to a lot of ex-christians because uh six years ago I started a Ministry called Uber evangelism trained about a do yeah dozen people to go across the country to drive for Uber and also talk about Jesus spoken to a lot of people

got saved the Uber drivers talk to you about it I'm the Uber driver who talks about Jesus you think that's harassment aside from going over that um so I've spoken to a lot of people from different perspectives different religions and it really enhanced my faith in Christ but also I've also spoken to a lot of ex-christians and you could tell me if I'm wrong but although the stats say it's because of they disagree with some of the church's political stand negative experience but from my conversations with them it appeared that most of them became ex-christians

because they just don't believe in Jesus is that right I for me I'm a extremely reluctant ex-christian right like I would like to be a Christian but I it it things don't seem true like what you mean by not believing in Jesus like that he's the son of God of course everybody knows he he's existed I mean that's that's under debate right but but that he's the son of God not that he existed okay but yeah believe that he is the Son of God died for people's sins I like his messaging I like the things

that he said a lot of people do I think a lot of people really like those and like thank you for clarifying I'm talking about believing in Jesus as Lord and savior is what I'm talking about yeah or well maybe not just in the way that you say right like like I could believe in Jesus but not definitely not that thing so that's why Christianity doesn't work for me anymore right for me in my case it's just that through study uh and a a truly unbiased research and honest searching I arrived at the conclusion that

Christianity as it is presented to us so far throughout the ages I believe it deeply immoral and the image of God it's deeply immoral and the and some of the teachings that are there are incredibly immoral so I I don't subscribe to that because I do believe that I do have a better moral Compass I find it hard to believe that you came to that conclusion based on objective research yeah colonialism Manifest Destiny slavery what is not denied or or rejected in the Bible so there are a whole bunch of immoral things that happen in

the Bible that some apologist will say well no no no no that was a historical thing that everyone did so it has to be documented as the thing that happened historically so is it human or is it Divine so so you know I just I just it for me it's just Immortal going back to the original prompt I think um for me it doesn't matter how much I tell my testimony I always question whether or not people are going to accept God through it if you guys don't accept then that's okay you know it's for

me it's kind of like a all you can eat buffet you know it's like you could pick and choose you want the chow or the sushi you know what I'm saying like there's still only one to answer I mean technically it's fine that you believe that there is one right answer if it's for you and your truth that's fine you know that's that's a very postmodernism approach you know I think from my perspective that that's right as long as you don't intervene with my perspective we're cool for sure well I get what you're saying because

uh there's a lot of crap in institutional religion including Christianity judging hypocrisy uh abuse so I get it when people walk away from the church but don't walk away from Jesus 100% I'll tell you a like a thing I just can't grasp is like okay we're born we didn't ask to be here M we are flawed from the beginning life from a Biblical Jesus standpoint seems like it's one big test that we have to pass and if we don't I'm a good person I think I would go to heaven but I won't because I can't

force myself to believe in Jesus and God that's what I don't believe and I know that you do believe I don't think that Jesus Christ the embodiment of Love is saying going to hell cuz you were kind to me that's what the Bible says for being kind you're going to hell for not surrendering to Jesus Christ Nally that's not her fault game the game is like we're throwing you here and you decide so Hitler's on his deathbed and he says God I Believe In You Hitler is going to heaven and I'm not what the is

that about on his death bed yes he would go to heaven yeah I do believe we have free will and when we come to these things like oh this was wrong and we learn from him I think that is what his version of believing in me is she believed in love and kindness which is Jesus Christ so that's what I believe would send her and everyone else to heaven so I'm going to challenge that then why don't cut the middleman and just believe in kindness I wish I could it's not about that the Bible's purpose

that God's purpose wasn't about trying to make people good or to improve people or to fill people with love the purpose was to save people everybody needs Jesus let me say something that you might not like I think all four of you know that God really exists deep down I think you do know any however you don't want it to be true and so whatever right I said you might not like it right not like it and categorically accepting it but let me finish my thought though no that because you don't want it to be

true okay maybe not specific to you but for the people in the scientific Community or historical Community they don't want the god to be true that's telling them what's right and wrong that what they're doing is wrong a generalization right this is a generalization so I'm saying probably most likely the scientific community and others who are skeptical because they don't want it to be true you're presenting margin of error probably maybe this thing that other thing that's a margin of er it's not a brain thing it's a heart condition that's not even worse exactly I

fear death yeah I'd be lying yay I wish I didn't fear death but I do yeah like and I used to be since I grew up in like a private school my whole life fire and brimstone baby like you are going to burn burn burn and I've done my research and I don't think that hell is a literal place but sometimes I'm like but what if like the pastors in the back of my mind that I've gone through in youth group I'm like but what if it is but I refuse to live like fear-based and

just believe in God because I'm scared like that's not living to me and I can't like force myself to believe in it I know my opinion doesn't matter but I I'm sorry I just don't believe that you're going to hell I love there's just a there's just a aura about people that are just bad and evil and want they're they're going you know what I mean there's no there's no way in you're going there so but I I feel uh I fear what death will feel like I'm like man I I feel like it's going

to hurt and I'm I hate saying that because I'm such a pansy but I am terrified of pain and and stuff unless it's the good kind you know warron you know a little little but it it uh that terrifies me also because I am afraid of what's going to happen to the people that actually care about me just knowing that they're going through something and I can't be there to comfort them well apparently you're not even going to know what's happening down there that's what Christians have told me like I won't even think about them

you won't even know them when they come up to heaven I don't believe that like they say that you won't recognize your like partner wow when you're yeah um I thought Heaven Was supposed to be heaven and uh my heaven includes them you know I always just thought like do I want to live forever sounds so exhausting so I hope when I die it's just like in the ground and just like resting I hope not I want us to hang out up there I want us to go to a club up there yeah we Kiki

up there going on I used to be super afraid of dying um and then you know had two partners in a row die and uh when people talk about an afterlife I'm like really another life after this one that's sounds like a lot yeah can only if I can only watch like HBO documentaries or something you know um are you okay you okay you all right okay can I give you a hug I'm sorry I'm so sorry I hate the top of death because you always remember the people that you care about that are gone

so again it really hurts and that's so sorry apologize don't apologize you're human you guys can go while I get my voice back together you need anything from us no thank you so much I really appreciate it were you finished um yeah I mean I feel like yeah I lost two partners and that kind of I feel like watch ing being with them as they died really made me not first of all a there's things that are worse than death uh B I don't have a fear of going to hell anymore um I feel like

I've already been through hell I just feel like oh if all there is is Blackness after this just darkness like yeah let's go let's go like the big nap please yeah bring on the big nap yeah relax I just want to R yes uh for me I guess it's very similar why should I fear something that in its simplest explanation it may just be nothing it may just be no experience no pain no suffering and I'm fine with that I would say I don't personally fear fear death because I believe I know where I'm going

but I'd be lying if I didn't say it wasn't something that ate me up inside to think of people that I know and if they don't know Jesus and I even pray like maybe on their deathbed you know cuz I I think we have family not everybody's Christian in my family um not everybody's living what I believe to be a Christian Life um so I think about that and that is that is hard and I know there's a lot of people's perceptions of Christians is that we want to send you to hell so bad and

that's not it so of course not that's all you all right if you keep talking I'll probably be over it so yeah I actually agree with that as well you know I used to fear death a lot being in that type of Lifestyle um you know I would carry a gun because I was afraid of dying actually you know people think that oh we want to hurt people no actually was a defensive mechanism for me but now that I'm similar to the sister here like by faith I feel like I know where I'm going and

likewise I feel bad about my friends so that's why um you know some of the people in my gang are are actually my family members my brother my uncles but for me luckily I kind of keep my faith in God and allow God to save a person cuz like we're all here right I can't change how you think I can't change how you I can only you know uh speak and then from my experience and if you guys accept it you accept it you know so yeah I'm I'm happy with that well even if you

don't want it I'm going to be praying for y'all just you know I'm definitely going to be praying for you not just like just just praying for you uh for your wellbeing for for everything so I think everyone here is fantastic and stuff like I genuinely by the way would love to talk to you about I want to hear like some of your thoughts and stuff like that and stuff but I would genuinely want to be friends with everyone here like I feel like I can hang out and so I know that me and her

are going to be super tight so I think that you need to do standup I I do stand up you do yes I told you say didn't I say she might actually do it I called it I want to say as a as a Christian Pastor um I want to apologize for uh some of the things that you've experienced in the church and um no excuses I'm not going to say oh nobody's perfect but um that shouldn't have happened there was abuse and judgment and uh that's not what Jesus stands for thank you and I

I do disagree that I I I believe that you know that God is real I'm going to go back to that but let me just say you know what I'm not convinced bro I I do wish the best for you and you as well yes insan I like you're going to get me again don't you I got a little cuz like I didn't have like good father figure so that was really nice you're wonderful hope you know no I I really appreciate that you all came you know with your belief but not prelati or forcing

as other uh people do I like and would love that this that can spread out out in a way that everyone can let everyone practice their way of being a good human being and the things that are private to be kept private thank you for being open thank you all of you guys thank you very much we're all looking for something to fill that void inside of us right some of us it's Jesus some of us it's you know really wild sex um ain't nothing wrong with that can I give you a hug are so

swe thanks brother I appreciate you hug meet up we have to go out we should I got to give your info you're wonderful you are you are amazing so nice to meet you amazing you got a friend for life in me man oh than you do too