Do this to build a $200,000 side hustle (The Online Directory Blueprint)

in this episode John Rush breaks down how you should start an online directory how to idate for an online directory how to build an online directory using Ai and how to grow an online directory using Ai and SEO and he just walks through the entire process people are making 5K 10K 15K 20K a month uh with these online directories they're super easy to create he thinks it's one of the lowest risk uh ways to start a startup I'll let you decide enjoy the [Music] episode we got John Rush the king of directories on the Pod you've heard it you've heard him here before but today is a special episode because what are we learning today John well we'll learn how to come up with ideas for directories how to validate them before you build them how to build them and how to work on SEO once you build them so basically all three important steps you have to build successful directories and why you should care about this is we're kind of entering this like Golden Era of directories we're starting to see them be more and more popular uh people want curation and directories provide that so if you're looking for your next startup idea directories is a great place to start and uh I'm excited to to get in with this I just like dive deep in directories I haven't done this with you I figured you might as well do it publicly yeah that's there smart that's 100% correct so uh just to add on that the Reon directors are so big now and they will be much bigger in the future is that as there's more content on the internet the quality of the content becomes more important and I think directors are soling this pretty well because people trust directories if it's a good directory they trust it that it's a Well curated content and it has some reviews ratings and the quality is high and the person running it understands the space and picks the right things there so I think people will be Outsourcing the decision making for for the content to the directories from Google because now they ask Google and that's uh that's becoming more and more relevant as we see that the top search results of the Google are mostly dominated by all the hacks all right well let's start with step one how do we find a directory idea that uh is worthwhile to go after yeah so there are many ways of doing it but the best way is to start based on keyword research so the keyword research is a way to see whether people search for certain keywords and certain phrases and even if you think that certain idea is great but often other people might not think so and you can figure out whether that's true or not by seeing what Google says about that and and Google has this tool called Keyword Planner that people usually use to plan their ads but you can also use that tool to see the traffic for directories not for director for keywords and I basically spend hours in that tool every day just throwing all random ideas into that tool and seeing whether there is traffic or not and I can show on a real example I have even an idea I want to test today and I will show you how I would test that idea actually right here on the P amazing amazing so while you're pulling that up today's episode uh it's going to be like a live cooking session like we're going to find an idea and we're going to go basically build this idea so if you're listening to this on audio might might be helpful to head to to to YouTube yeah so one thing we saw is that your podcast has been really great and it been it's been growing the startup ideas and the idea I got from this is that that's the hottest part of the whole startup Journey now is the ideas and I think the part people struggle the most with are the ideas and I think people search a lot for ideas on Google and to validate that I went to Google or I will go there now I don't some test before and and we come here and we say business ideas now you can remove the filter on us to see the whole world it's still in English so and now we're going to see whether people search for it and as you see a lot of people search for it business ideas is almost 1 million a month that's a lot and competition low uh this competition is is about the ads so people don't pay for the ads for this keyword but finding this domain name is pretty difficult because the next thing you have to think about about is like I have the keyword and I want to make directory and I want the domain name of my directory to match the keyword if there is a match then it's go like for example I had this directory called nextjs starters and it was exact match of the keyword exact match like letter to letter and I launched that and I open it back in three months and it has a lot of traffic just because it's it's perfect and it's do com in this case obviously this will be taken so I I go to GoDaddy and I see whether business ideas. com is taken and it's obviously taken so then I have the next group of uh keywords here I can s sort them and I can I can just take them one by one and test them small business ideas little business ideas online business ideas all of them and eventually uh just before the Pod I found one that was available which was the mean business ideas and I I bought it so the mini business ideas is a domain I will try why it's good so it's basically I will explain now how how the domain and the keyword works so the key part here is that the Google has made a change where in the old times Google would look at exact word match and now it it looks at the meaning more than the actual words and that's why you have this small business ideas here which is really high up here and basically can replay small with something else that's has the same meaning and if it's available you can take it and that's what I did so I tried tiny micro and then the mini was free so I bought mini business ideas for $9 I never buy expensive domains like it's always available just be more creative and find the one that's available so now I have the domain name main business ideas I have the the idea itself so the idea is the director of ideas that's pretty funny shh don't tell anyone but I've got 30 plus startup ideas that could make you millions and I'm giving them away for free these aren't just random guesses they're validated Concepts from entrepreneurs who' built hundred million plus business businesses I've compiled them into one simple database compiled from hundreds of conversations I've had on my podcast but the main thing is most of these ideas don't need a single investor some cost nothing to start I'm pretty much handing you a cheat sheet the idea bank is your startup shortcut just click below to get access your next cash flowing business is waiting for you and now I will go for the next step which is building the directory so there are many ways of building directories and the worst way of building directories is going into the code and I am a developer myself a lot of people think I'm a not a developer that's why I always promote no code but I've been coding for like 15 years and the reason I always say that you should start with no code is this when you do no code you start faster because you can use templates but that that's not the most important part the most important part is that once you launch you have to do marketing and marketing goes around marketing Pages marketing experiments AB tests and all those things and when you and also the blog and and and prog programmatic SEO and all those things are usually out of the box on most modern CMS or web Builders because they have thought about it that's why they built the whole systems and when you do that with nextjs or you hardcode that with PHP you don't really think about the future and maybe in the present you may find certain template too or boiler plate for that but then you'll have a lot of problems in the future when you have to do the other marketing work because everything has to be done manually and for example if you want to find somebody on appwork who will write certain pages for you and publish them now you can't do that because it's all in code so you will get some Google doc and you will convert that into code so it's all huge hustle and that's why it's even if you know how to write code and you're great at that it's 100% better to go with no code any tool but I obviously go with my own tool the Unicorn platform and let me switch the tab to the other tab now all right so here we are it's a unicorn platform like simple website builder that I pivoted into into directory Builder I would say because most directories or most websites built on unicorn now are directories and that's interesting and so we go here and we say create and we find the directories so here are the templates and people always try to over complicate things so I have this Discord group called directory makers and a guy asked me today like I want to make a directory for lawyers and I want to have this and this and this like 20 features and I say at the first launch of your directory the only thing that's important is the items like if you put the out the ratings and everything it will be empty because there will be no ratings there will be no users so all those features they don't make sense for new director so the only thing that makes sense for a new directory is a simple page with a name and items and everything else should come later in the month or even a year so that's why I always start with very simple directory first so usually it's um for example this one so this is probably the simplest one here so I pick this all right and I can actually simplify my work so I can ask AI to generate oh the directory for me and I say directory of meanie mini business which by the way is insane I had no idea you can do this oh really that's why I do things really fast like people always ask me what's your routine I'm like I use AI for everything but I I do moderate everything right so I understand the quality and I add it but I always use AI to start off Min I is for people who want to start a small site project St student in the hackers and another founder all right let's see so now it will basically help me to come up with the with simple things like a menu and the structure the text the subtitle like basically you could do this all by yourself too but why not to save time if you can yeah so it's suggest me to basically have uh the directory here and then to have uh featured ideas here which is pretty cool because this is uh so in the directory everything has to be taken into the into the prism of SEO so basically the more text you have the more items you have the more pages you have the more chance to score an SEO for those pages and and for example in this case if you have featured ideas uh there's High chance that you can score for SEO compared to just the ideas because ideas will be uh smaller items and featured ideas you can probably spend time and create longer Pages all right so it's pretty much almost done the work and okay now wa few more seconds where it's making the futter for me I guess all right so it's making this also FAQ so FAQ is pretty important yeah now it's done FAQ is really important too because in FAQ every Title Here is a possible question people put in Google that's why the way you usually do with this is is pretty straightforward so you go to Google and you try to search for something so you write how do I and then it suggests you all the other options that other people search for and that makes it obvious what exactly people search for and that's how you can basically for free understand what people search for then you put them here uh into this FAQ and you answer those questions and then there's a chance you can get traffic for this so I will I will show that which makes so much sense if you think about it right it's yeah it's so basic and obvious but you'll be surprised that almost Nobody Does it um some things look too easy and people don't try it because it's they kind of expect things to be complicated and then being valuable and if something is easy to do it feels like it's not valuable because everyone would be doing it so uh how to start yeah so here you see so how to start a business with no money how to start business as a teenager that's interesting I would never think of this how to start a business as a teenager and and that's very good keyword right because it's uh it's probably not served well because it's not obvious and you could cover that so now I do this research and I write down all these questions and then I go back to my uh page where I will cover them right so I go here and and I say I ask AI uh item for how to start business as a tager so I say work for AI and then now it says how to start the business as a teenager and now it puts the text so that's it so now I basically have a pretty high chance uh to score on this keywords and of course if I want to go further I will make a page that will have this title and full description but I usually don't recommend making pages right away because it takes more time to make a page than to make a fake item that's why start with this and then watch the queries in the search console and you will see whether you have any traffic for this keyword and if you have any traffic for this keyword then go ahead and make a page for that then you'll win more traffic so basically my whole approach with director is this you have to be doing as little as possible to validate all the assumptions and then the assumption that wins going to take more of your time and you invest proper human time into that and you make it really good because obviously AI is not as good as humans but it it's it's pretty good for these experiments but then you make it Greater with your own hands yeah so this is my article my my website and just to save time I will switch to the website I just made because it's pretty much the same but with the data yeah how I just made it before the the call so this is my directory the small business ideas and uh I have all the ideas here and and my goal is to have I know maybe 10 or 100 Sol ideas here and I looked at this keywords so I put small little size startup so every keyword you see here has been validated for traffic either directly or through indirect words and same for all the St in the FAQ so every question I have here is coming from from the method I just used so that's pretty much it and and here I have like feature business ideas so it all takes if it takes you more than one evening then you're doing it wrong because if it takes more than one evening you need to redo your method otherwise you're kind of riding on a small car on a on a slow car and you will never get really far with that so you have to make sure that you're moving fast because there's a chance that everything I've done will fail there's really high chance and maybe tomorrow or after a week I will figure out that this will not work that's why I usually bet for five six 10 ideas and I test them all the same time so that I remove the chance to be disappointed when one one idea fails that's that's pretty good approach I would say like don't do Just One Directory because it will be disappointing and you have to wait quite a lot for SEO to get in and to validate certain assumptions but if you have 10 of them then it's faster so now the next thing I do is once I built the directory I have to promote it somewhere so I I do few things so the first thing I do I go to Reddit and I search I just search in Google small bonus ideas Reddit when I do that I will see all the Reddit articles about that and then I go into those articles and I reply with my URL just have to be careful to not be banned and to not be banned you have to reply on articles where people actually ask for URLs and there are articles like that where people ask do you know places to find the ideas and then you put your url nobody going to hate you for that and there a lot of Articles like that so for this particular thing I found over 100 articles there're not it took me time you have to search with different kind of queries and then you don't have to just go into every article and reply right away you just make a plan to make three replies a day or one or two just to not be blocked or banned by by the Reddit engine itself because it has some rules for URLs too besides the subreddits so that's number one thing I do and that brings some traffic and then the number two thing I do is I put my directory into other directories and that's probably the second best way to start on marketing because uh directories are big and that's why the other directories might bring traffic to your directory but it has to be relevant so you have to find directories which are relevant but again you Google for them and usually find them and then the third thing I do is I go to social media and I start searching for the same question and then when I find the question there I reply with my directory there which works sometimes really well if if your directory actually helps to the original question I had that when fireship had this what was that he had this viral tweet about self Hoster software on Twitter and I replied with my hosted software directory and it was the most viewed and like reply there and since his post was like a million views mine got like 30 or 40K views it was really good and and the interesting thing that many people don't know is that Google they don't say so but they do this I I know for sure they look at backlinks from social media and if there is a good tweet with a lot of views and there is your link there it's so valuable and in that particular case it was like fifth or or 50th time I proved that so right after that tweet was going viral with my link there the next day I had traffic from Google growing for everything I have for all the blogs for all the items so this is way better backlink than a backlink from websites actually now these days so that's the third thing I do social media and I spend some time every day uh on that like probably every morning there are tools for that to spy for keywords but I rather do it myself because search is pretty good on Twitter and it's it's same kind of experience but more native and then the fourth thing I do is the SEO and that's probably the most important part and I do it after the first four steps because first four steps help me to validate my idea because if I posted somewhere and no clicks it means that it doesn't click with people right so people sew it but they don't click it it means it's a bad idea or the domain name is bad I have to change something there's no reason to push it further but if I have some traffic and it looks fine then I go for SEO because that's that's the key way of growing the directories and I will show you what I do with SEO so I have built a tool for that too but there are a lot of ways of doing SEO and I will walk through all of them but start with with the way I do it myself yeah so I go here and so I put my directory here and basically what it does is that it scrapes my directory it it it will now try to understand everything that's written on it it will try to do some research so it will basically do all the actions I do usually myself and that's how we build this agent so I just took all the actions I do and I program them into the agent and in a minute it will come up with some ideas on what what what can I do with the with SEO for this uh directory and while it's doing it there are other ways of doing it so one way of doing it is to use clothing or chity and generate content there but I would rather recommend using tools for that because SEO is more than just a Content it's a lot about in internal linking it's a lot about uh the structure the keyword research and all those things so in this case it figured out the content of my page and then it found uh the keywords and it came up with uh with ideas so these are pretty good like 10 locost business ideas for 2025 uh and it evaluates the possible traffic it can get for that based on the keywords and I can just go further and here I have the done for 10 articles so don't start with alarm articles some people just go crazy and you know publish hundreds of them if your site is fresh and the domain rating is low if you publish a lot of Articles Google will just never coll them because it will look like spam for Google that's why the first month you should have maximum 50 pages or 50 articles on on your website and then second month you can do more so I usually go for 10 artic on the first month all right I will approve this one so now it's working on this article so it's um it's looking for the keywords evaluating their traffic the complexity and then know working on a outline so it does pretty good job and one way to learn SEO is to watch what saay or bot does and repeat it manually if if someone wants to do it with their own hands because it does it pretty well it does pretty well with all the steps and all the actions yeah so now we will create the Articles and will publish them back to my website and quick ad break let me tell you about a business I invested in it's called boring marketing. com so a few years ago I met this group of people that were some of the best SEO experts in the world they were behind getting some of the biggest companies found on Google and the secret sauce is they've got a set of technology and AI that could help you outrank your competition so for my own businesses I wanted that I didn't want to have to rely on Mark Zuckerberg I didn't want to depend on ads to drive customers to my businesses I wanted to rank high in Google that's why I like SEO and that's why I use boring marketing.

com and that's why I invested in it they're so confident in their approach that they offer a 30-day spring with 100% money back guarantee who does that nowadays so check it out highly recommend boring marketing. com and that's it so from that moment I quit working on this directory completely so it all takes me usually first day to build and promote it on Reddit and social media and then the other day for SEO and more promotion and then I just stopped doing anything with that and I go for the next directory or I go for other idea and then I come back in 30 days and I look at the traffic and I see whether there is traffic or no traffic and sometimes there is no traffic and the thing is that if there's no traffic from my experience if there's no traffic it's really hard to fix that so I I never managed to make a directory have no traffic in the month and then do something so that it actually gets the traffic it's very difficult because if there's no traffic then something is wrong fundamentally maybe the domain name is wrong maybe uh the keyword look easy but in fact it is not that's why my recommendation is to never fall in love with the idea for a directory but rather make maybe five bats and then in 30 days look at the one that does the best and then put more time into that otherwise you'll be trying to you know push the dying horse and will just never work and in thir days uh I find the directory that does the best among all I did and then I do the next phase and the next phase is the data and that part is even more important because at the beginning you just selling the idea and people click that just to validate that they really care they have the pain but you don't Focus that much yet on whether your directory is actually good because if you focus on everything at once it's is difficult to be good at anything right so that's where the first 30 days I focus only on validation of potential SEO traffic and the interest from people but after a month I go full into the data and a lot of people who build directories fail here like must fail here because they don't put enough effort into making the data great and here's what happens if somebody opens your directory and they know the topic they understand it they are probably experts they can quickly see whether your data is high quality whe whether you understand the topic yourself and you're not someone who just used chity to come up with the items right and if that expert who sees your direct sees that the value of the content is high the quality is high they really respect that and they they really want to share with their With Their audience and that happened with all my good directories so they all have this moment where an influencer or few shareed With Their audience because they think it's really good and they will never think it's good if it's actually not good because they understand the data really well if they come to uh let's say I made this directory it was um llm models and then first I had I just hired a guy to fill it out with data and then I open it and I see that it's missing mistell there's no mistal there and this this is the example where if an expert comes in and they see you don't have mistell in your directory they will quickly realize that you don't know the topic you would never miss the most important open source project back at the time right and so if if the data is great uh the influencers might share it with their audience and from there your job pretty much ends because now it just turns into the organic system that people share if somebody shared then other people also want to share it like people work in a collective mind right and the only thing you have to do from there is to make sure the data is great you keep running your SEO activities like I run the agent and others can do other things but then the key focus is making sure that you check the data you check the space every week or month and you make sure that if there is really hot item appearing like new item that everybody talks about on Twitter you have to add it there you have to add into to your directory and you have to do it fast because if you do it fast there's a chance you will actually get the traffic from Google from people who search for that new hot item right on your directory and that's why say there there's very little work to do but you have to have put attention into the space almost every day so I have a lot of directories I don't really do stuff but I scroll Twitter every day and once I see that oh this item is relevant for this directory I just bring it in and that's kind of the next way the next wave of growth comes from being early to list hot items on your directory and Google will find nothing else on internet to supply to the user who is searching for that and Google will will show your item your page for that yeah okay so that's that's the whole path well it's the whole path so what you've just first of all that's thank you for for going through that but what you've just explained is how to come up with an idea for a directory how to create content for the directory how to build the website for the directory how to uh how to grow the directory and how to iterate with the directory one of my questions is great now I'm getting 50,000 unique visitors a month on this directory how are people monetizing directories uh and what what have you learned around the best ways to monetize directories if there is a best way yeah yeah so there are multiple ways depending on your audience so if your directory is B2B it's easier to monetize it because obviously uh you can go to businesses who have the same audience as your directory and you can pitch them in the banner spot or the sponsor options that's what I always did I had directories of all gpts and I just sent an email to all GPT owners saying that do you guys want to be featured on top of this directory because we have 30k items you just one of 30k do you want to be the number one on the top and then a lot of people said yes so that's one way the other way is the affiliate links and that way works pretty good if the items you have on your directory cost a lot so if you have items costing $10 then you'll make a little money on that because you need a lot of clicks but if you have items for 500 or few k then there is good money to be made there for example I have a directory for next GS boiler plates and I have affiliate links to all the boiler plates and they all cost quite a lot and it brings quite a good money good income so I would not exclude one way or the other I would say do the first one do the second one like do the sponsoring do the affiliate links and then the third option is uh is to sell the data be careful to not sell the data as a is because obviously you can't sell people private data but you can sell the the anonymized data or you can sell the insights and that's possibly bringing good income if you find somebody who needs that and usually you have to sell it to the corporates and you have to pitch that to the bigger companies where they are interested in in in the percentage in the distributions and things like that and the the most obvious way to monetize directory is to have a pay wall to list for example in this case um it's probably harder for business ideas because why would someone pay to list their business idea but for example if you're making list of n n like search for nanes and then every Nanny would pay quite good amount to be listed there if you have traffic and if you have the buyers and the same the buyers so that's number four payable for listings charge 500 or $50 for listings and then the number five is charge for Access for those who are most interested in the case of directory of nannies if you are interested in hiring a nanny you would probably pay good amount to get access to the whole database so you show top five or you show nanis without their contact data without their photos and then to unlock that contact data you have to pay and then you get access to the whole directory either you you get access for life or you get access for a month and then you can charge them for for that every month and the sixth is you find uh the brand sponsors that's what I do now uh so once your directories are pretty big you can find big companies big corporates who don't need the traffic who just need the brand promotion like we have Dev hun for example and it's really big it's the biggest after produ hunt and and now it's very easy to get big Brands like Clerk or like super base and others to want to be there to be affiliated with it because that's where developers hang out and they're willing to pay just to be affiliated with the product like so that you write like it's sponsored by super base and it's not for the clicks it's it's for their brand there and they're willing to pay for that every month or every week so we have very good deals now with with a lot of the players like that for ongoing sponsorship and and that's the best one because a it's ongoing usually they will pay forever because your traffic just keeps growing it just gets better for them and and also it doesn't destroy your directory because the Banners are slightly annoying for users because they will be shown and you want people to click on them so you will you will make them different color and that annoys some people but the sponsor links are usually smaller and they don't annoy people that much so those are the six ways and then the last way is or there two more but they are available for those who have other projects so if you have SAS project like I do and the main reason I started with directories was that I realized one really interesting thing it is much harder to win SEO traffic for a SAS tool than for a directory so instead of trying to win SE traffic directly for my SAS tool which has some random brand name that has nothing to do with the keyword that's why it's hard and I rather make director following the SEO driven approach I win traffic on directories and they channel the traffic from directories into the SAS tools and that turned out to be the best idea I ever had in marketing because now almost all my traffic goes not to my products but to directories and then to the products and also directories are competing for the keywords that nobody want to pay for for SAS you compete with VCB companies who are paying a lot for the keywords but nobody wants to pay for directory keywords because there's no money there and there no VCB directory that that wants to compete with you so that's the good way to monetize directory indirectly basically it's your free traffic which you would otherwise pay for and and the the last one is you can sell directories and you can sell them exactly to the people who have SAS tools who have the same audience as your directory and they would buy it just to channel the traffic and I did that I sold all I sold all gbts do go to cheap. a and they bought it because it has exactly the same audience and and it was really useful for them I think there's probably the best Airy on the market right now for marketing for a SAS company is to buy a directory and channeled the traffic it is way better than newsletter ads or all other ways because directors are pretty cheap if you look at their traffic let's say there's a directory with 100K views a month and you can buy it and in a year you get a million views and in that million views you can Channel at least 3% so it's like 30k 30k clicks a year and you will pay for the directory maybe 20K and if you pay 20K so it's less than a dollar per click less than a dollar what are the multiples for directories approximately like what are people paying for a directory there's no system at all it just depends on the audience because you you can't have multiples based on Revenue because re revenue is usually not that important the traffic itself also like some traffic is more expensive than the others I think from what I seen the actual Deals they go from 2K they start at 2K so you can find and buy a director for 2K which is which has traffic so it will definitely pay the the investment back and then the average directories go for 20K in average so small ones go for 2 to 5K and then 15 to 20K the average ones and then the bigger ones go to 100K and I think that's where it stops I never seen a directory being sold for over 100k and where where are people finding like if you if someone wants to go and buy a directory do is there a Marketplace that people can go to or um is this like reaching out to to Founders who who are selling directories well I just bought the domain called sell directories.

com yesterday so I will launch the the marketplace that's hilarious right now I see them mostly on small marketplaces like not the ac. com because aire. com doesn't let directors in because they don't have revenue and they require their revenue but then there are these smaller marketplaces for smaller rep sites and I see directories there often for example one I seen the directories the most on called Micron iio I think it's a small one and they had like 10 directories under 10k there some sold some still being sold so but I think the best way to actually buy director is to go to similar web and research the traffic research the audience research the countries and then reach out to them and offer to buy I I do that and because if somebody put their directory for sale very often they want to sell it for quite a lot but if you surprise a Founder with a offer for a directory they might just sell it right away for the offer you made and you can have a better deal I think that's what I do right now last question and I know you don't brag or really share mrr that that much but as much as you're willing to share if someone you know what I like about directories is you can do it yourself or even a like micro or tiny team um what sort of scale could some of these businesses get to how big could some of these directories get to if someone to start one of these I think the the 5K is is probably where you can get without being lucky or being too smart like in in my case I would say the average directory I have is there it's on 5K uh and I know that if I put more time I can bring it to maybe 15 to 20K I think 20K is probably the limit for the the right now on the market unless you want to go fulltime into that and that's your main project but I don't see director as main projects so I only see them as side projects and I think as a side project where you have either I have my main projects but other people have main jobs for for that kind of case I think people can expect 5K Mron that and then uh eventually get to the 10K but I wouldn't hope for a lot more than that so I would look at directories as a as a way to fund your life if you don't live in us because that's good money outside of us or I think directories are really good way to start building soft not software but digital products because starting with SAS is is the is the worst idea because you will fail Almost 100% And then you'll probably feel bad about that and never start again and go back to a job but with directories it's really hard to fail I don't think anyone can fail if they launch enough directories and if they spend you know six months on on those directories because in SAS failure means that you don't have growing revenues but in directories if you get to stable 5K visits a month for a B2B directory you will sell four or five ads and you will make three 4K a month on that and and that it will stay that way and even if you do nothing it will just grow because you have SEO as your channel and SEO tends to grow even if you do nothing if it's a directory because directories are in non-competitive keywords so that's why my recommendation start with a directory as your first attempt to build interet business and you will have more fun because you will get the doamin faster so B traffic and maybe the first sponsor all those things it will get faster compared to SAS and then you decide either you go full I see I I know people who go with directories uh full in for example starter story is a directory too right it's a directory of starter stories and he's making our a million and uh prod hunt was the directory of ideas first there was no voting system at all it was just a list of products he would just look around the internet and put in and send into newsletter every day right so there's a way to grow into millions but also the risk of failing completely is pretty low too yep well I think that's a beautiful place to end um John where where could people find find out more about you and get to know you better on the internet Twitter is the best place is John Rush X or my website John rush.