URGENT: Ex-Google CBO says AI is now IMPOSSIBLE to stop with Mo Gawdat

are so brainwashed by productivity that is impossible to stop AI you would look back in 2027 and say why didn't we listen I don't mean to scare people a lot by the way I just want people to wake up I don't know how much louder I can scream I get such aggressive bashing comments on social media you're just killed my hope because humans suck what was you know Trump doing he was trying to play a political game against China it's an Andres with AI there is sadly a point of no return Yes Humanity were lost

people are gonna hate me for what I'm about to say one thing that I have to warn the world about is I have never had to give any of you a warning about what you're about to listen to but what you're about to listen to today I just want to give you a heads up that it may shock you it may trigger you there are things that I chat about with today's guests that really uh challenge where we're headed as humanity and where the planet is heading I sat down with former Chief business Officer of

Google acts mogodat MO is also the author of scary smart we talk about AI and you need to listen to what he has to say first of all AI is coming we can't change that it's way too late to stop it secondly it's going to outsmart humans it's almost already there and thirdly bad things will happen these are three inevitables that Mo shared I want you to sit back and take in What mo share today is an incredible mind very smart has done incredible things with his life and he is so much value to offer

you must listen to today's episode Mo a huge welcome to the lead on purpose podcast thank you so much for having me I apologize it took a bit of time I was on my silent Retreat and so uh yeah that was 26 days this year so it's uh it's delayed us a little bit but it's always on time as they say absolutely agree and can we just pause there for a moment and talk about that the silent Retreat what is your experience when you're on that silent version uh I I don't know how to explain

it honestly but everyone I mean you have to imagine I lived two very different lives I lived the life of the fast-paced executive uh for a very long time I even ran my happiness mission for the first few years really as an executive uh and uh and you know I also have always been reasonably spiritual I was always seeking within I was always trying to to uh to find my uh my uh my core strengths if you want and unlike what most people think uh you know because in the in the corporate world in the

in the world of doing you tend to believe that the only impact you can have is when you do and the more you do the better you become and the better your results the the more you do the better your skills uh which is true you can't deny that but at the same time uh very very um um ignored I think is that the more you be the more you move from our hyper masculine view of the world which is all about doing to a feminine view of the world which is all about being you

know you know you can you can help someone by giving them a dollar that's an act of doing on you or you can help someone by being kind being is a very very strong impact and influence in the world and and you can only develop believe it or not and grow and become a better version of yourself if you learn to be if you learn to create that awareness within you of where you are what you're doing well what you would like to do better uh what you perhaps uh you know are letting into your

life that is hindering you and so on and I found that those two sides you know one side is to empower your feminine approach to life uh which I think is a is a very valuable form of intelligence that we rarely ever or tap into in our work world you know it has intuition within it it has creativity within it it has Flair you know playfulness and flow within it uh you know it has paradoxical thinking within it which is so valuable for an entrepreneur or a business person and at the same time uh you

know to allow yourself the time to uh to be to to literally do nothing and then you'll be amazed so you know I'm I'm typically a very fast author I I write very quickly compared to other authors because I write like a software developer before I sit down to write a book I have my entire flowchart written I have the entire the exact title subtitle and sub-subtitle of every topic from the beginning of the book until the end of the book I normally start from the end and then find my way from the front to

from the beginning to get to that end and so my books are written before I put a single word on the page and uh and so I write very quickly I right you know the typical author would write a a page and a half of maybe two and a half three pages of finished work a week I write eight and a half a day uh but uh yeah but but then recently last year I did a 40 days silent Retreat uh which I you know I follow my own rules by the way I don't follow

the vikasana like very restrictive you have to sit on Hard Rock and meditate four hours a day I don't do that uh but I I allow myself the space and silence and last year I wrote uh a book in nine days uh simply I mean nine nine writing days and the process was very interesting I the process was I would sit down silently with one Topic in my mind and leave that for a day or two or whatever I mean normally a day or two is more than enough and then you suddenly get a very

serious download of every side of the topic that you want to write about and and you you know I I take notes of that and then the next morning the writing morning I start Auto dot AI which is my transcript transcription application and I just dictate the chapter to author and I have 20 Pages written right and and it's just so unbelievable because it is not the the two to two hours conversation with author that is the chapter it's to do the two days of Silence that is the chapter and I think most of us

especially as Leaders uh uh in work and business we are so brainwashed by productivity that we think that Mo you know if if I find an hour extra in the day I should be doing more when when I Used to Be You Know Chief business Officer of Google X or you know in my senior the roles at Google or Microsoft and so on I think the my most valuable hour of the day which was in my calendar marked as my thinking hour where you would walk by my office or a meeting room you know Google

X all of our meeting rooms were made of glass and so you would see me sitting there not looking at my phone not looking at a screen not looking at an email uh you know or or talking to anyone on the phone just sitting there with a tiny little old uh you know style uh old-school notepad and pencil and and that's where most of the magic happens it's quite interesting how much silence not not only on your spiritual side but on your productivity side can gain for you slowing down seems to be a way going

down yeah I mean my my podcast is called slow-mo it's all it's all about that Paradox of changing from being that fast-paced executive that's constantly running you know 100 miles an hour uh to someone who can actually sit still and say hey you know what if I move at zero miles an hour for the next four hours worst case scenario is I will I will not perform the least important 20 of my day uh but but the best case scenario is that I will double my productivity double My Clarity uh double my relaxation and reduce

my stress on the on the remaining 80 which is really a significant change yeah hugely significant it's interesting this evening uh before we connected I meditated for 30 minutes and it was just beautiful I slowed everything it does and the things that came to me during that meditation were just phenomenal so if I could do that sorry to interrupt me but that's a very interesting thing the things that came to you during the meditation because there is a belief that meditation is about silencing your brain all together right it isn't at all I'm you know

one of my best best friends is Galen tupton who's one of the top monks of the UK and geylang basically says that meditation is all about that act of getting your mind from active to focused from active to focus it's almost like being in the gym and doing bench press the act of pushing that weight okay the weight of Destruction within your mind and there are many meditations that are actually focused on the idea of no I want to contemplate something this meditation is not about a silent brain it's about a contemplative brain that's actually

looking at something from all its angles unjudgmental and non-judgmental in any way and and really trying to see it yeah I resonate with that deeply it's uh I think it's a powerful practice but to do it for days I to me that seems to a dream come true for me to have a silent Retreat for days would be phenomenal yeah I normally I normally recommend to people so I will tell you openly even 26 days is not enough so it's there is something that happens in the last five days of a 40-day retreat okay and

I I you know I'm lucky enough to to be uh completely undemanded by the world in all in August normally so if I manage to get 10 days before or 10 days after that's 40 days but I will tell you openly uh you know by day 3132 Clarity sets in like no other anything they've ever done in your life Clarity truly sets in and I don't meditate you know I don't I don't retreat as I said I mean my retreat is very very lovely it's a silent retreat but I have music in the background uh

you know I allow myself 20 minutes on my phone every day I you know I make a lot of coffee I love coffee uh you know I sit and walk in nature I don't read I don't input I don't input information and uh and human interaction okay but you know of course if I'm in a place like last year I was in Dartmoor in the UK in the countryside with a lovely lovely lovely landlord that you know I rented an Airbnb from a converted Barn for the 40 days and you know she's I think 78

or 68 or something and she would show up every second day third day to just make sure I'm alive and and say lovely you know little nothings really you know for 10 minutes I don't restrict myself from that uh the idea is to give yourself a space where you don't wake up in the morning and rush to your phone you don't wake up in the morning and respond to emails you don't wake up in the morning and play a podcast or an ebook or a I mean sorry so I'm a podcaster like you so yes

it's nice to have podcasts but sometimes it's nice to have silence yeah and that's all you need you know music in the background you know if my daughter or someone I love the texts that's okay to text back you know in my 20 minutes and yeah and and it's just that space that space if you just flip your majority of your day from doing to being something magical happens and when people struggle with this I normally say which is actually what I'm doing uh weekdays until the end of September I do a mini silent Retreat

which basically uh is you know I set my uh my alarm clock when I go to bed to 4 pm and then I'm on a silent Retreat until 4pm when my alarm clock goes off that's the beginning of my day amazing so you yeah and it's really incredible it's very easy so it's basically almost like intermittent fasting it just Pro prohibits you from waking up in the morning for taking your phone and then starting to look at Instagram and messages and so on makes a huge difference every other Sunday or whatever will make a big

difference I'm gonna try that tomorrow Sunday for mimo so I'm going to give that a try there you go yeah now we're talking about slowing down and the one thing I want to chat to you about is AI and to me it's the opposite I think that's slowing down exponential crazy speeding up so the three inevitables I want to start there the first was AI will happen well I think that's a big tick it's here two it will become smarter than us potentially it's already there or it's close to it and then smarter than most

of us there we go and then the third was the most alarming bad things will happen so the first was is a big tick second let's just hover on the second it's going to become smarter than us what do we mean by it's becoming smarter or is smarter than most of us so so the actual the first is is a big tick but it's also important to understand that there is no stopping it so so AI will happen we know that AI has happened already when I when I spoke and and scary smart so I

attempted in this case mode believe it or not I wanted to write scary Smart in 2018 and my very first video the day I left Google was about that and it's you know public and it's been seen 20 million times or so um and and uh and the idea is that uh people don't understand because people that you tell about Ai and the possible threat of AI will tell you okay you know what if it's threatening us we'll we'll switch it off we'll just cut the electricity Supply to it uh no that's not going to

happen right you know if we if we feel threatened by it we're going to uh to just get together and stop developing it no that's not going to happen I think the reality of the matter is that between a prisoner's dilemma that uh that was created by by capitalism and our economic dependence on the Internet it's almost impossible it's not almost it is impossible to stop AI so so when I say in the first inevitable of scary smart that uh that AI will happen I by that I mean that's it the genie is out of

the bottle there is no putting the genie back in the water right the second inevitable is um is very important to understand so let's let's very quickly tell our listeners what is AI and what AI is you know I coded computers since I was eight and you know we had at the time I had a Sinclair and then a Commodore 64 and a Commodore 128 and if you don't know what I'm talking about uh lucky you you young person I remember the Commodore yeah and and and those for for a for a geek like myself

were heaven but if you compare them to today's computers they're insulting really I mean the way we programmed those was so level of so low level so geeky uh that you know that that you you really couldn't get it if you were not a geek right and and I you know and I uh even then dreamed of building an AI right every one of us wanted to build an AI to to transfer your your smarts into a machine right the the challenge was technology with computers in general and programming that most people who have not

programmed don't understand is that until the turn of the century uh the computers were not intelligent in terms of they were just using my intelligence to perform the task so I solved the problem first and I I outlined a way to solve it and then I told the computer when you get this number as a and that number as B add them up and then divide them but by this number as C and you will get get a result tell that to the customer and the customer presses he has to do this if the customer

presses no do that I solved the flowchart and then I told the computers to do it by the turn of the century with deep learning mainly we we deviated from that we basically said to the computer uh look we want you to find the number eight in all of those pictures that you find in front of you we're not going to tell you how to find it we're not going to tell you it's made up of two circles or you know because it could sometimes be made of us you know a scribble that looks like

an you know upside down in infinity symbol and so on and so forth we're just going to tell you guess right like a little child you learn what is eight and what is six and the way to do it is you you we show you a picture and you tell us if it's if it's an eight uh or or whatever else and if you're right we will keep your code and improve it if you're wrong we will kill your code and use the better code okay which sounds really vicious but that's the way we did

deep learning until you know 2018 or so uh when Jeffrey Hinton and others were advocating uh reinforcement learning for a very long time and we then started to tell the computer no no hold on it's not a six this actually is an eight what can you change about your algorithm so that you see it as an eight okay which is a very very strong Milestone that led us to the gpts and the Transformers and so on right so so so with that AI is not actually a piece of code it's not human intelligence it's learning

from Human intelligence but it's building its own intelligence now when you understand this you understand that in technology development which is rarely spoken about the most famous chart that governs technology development is known as the technology acceleration curve moles though is a great example of that Moore's Law basically said since 1967 I think that processing power will double every 18 months almost at the same cost right and it held true until today and every time we we think oh close to Impossible we find a new breakthrough that continues to grow our compute now uh doubling

is a very tricky thing because you know if if you had one unit of compute year one and then 18 months later you doubled it becomes two but then the next doubling it becomes four and that becomes eight and then it becomes 16. so your growth which was one unit on the first year is eight units on the fourth year and then today it's a trillion units so every time you double okay you're you're literally doubling all of the compute we've achieved the year before right with that with that in mind you know for a

fact that the AI we have today will at least double every year going forward so so that basically leads you into you know it doesn't matter if it's in five years or ten years or seventy years that it continues to double until the prediction in on my mind is that by the year 2045 uh that this is what I wrote in scary smart for by the year 2014 a billion times smarter than us right uh wow I'm wrong I'm wrong in that okay and I and I say openly I I constantly surprises us I'm now

probably pulling that forward to 2037. okay and and you know a billion times as a matter of fact doesn't actually matter at all because if um you asked um you know a um a person with an IQ of 110 let's say to comprehend what a person of an IQ of 170 is talking about uh it becomes difficult okay if that person is 220 you know if you're if you're if you're not Adept in physics for example I dare you understand what this the real scientists mean when they talk about String Theory or Quantum field Theory

or whatever that's the the variation of intelligence that is maybe 20 30 percent more than yours right imagine if uh your you know someone is 10 times more intelligent than you then you're basically comparing the intelligence of a dolphin to the intelligence of a human let's say different language like a totally different language completely unable to comprehend what the human is talking about right and and uh and and you know and you and you keep thinking about this Sam Harris was uh speaking uh on uh on a podcast recently about what he calls the dog

example right so imagine if all of the dogs uh invented us humans uh to take care of their needs right and in his in his example we did really well on fulfilling that you know by feeding them and grooming them and you know taking them to the vet when they're sick and so on like amazing invention which is what what we are doing with AI we're trying to get something that helps us out uh but then the dogs are completely completely oblivious to the fact that you and I are having this conversation or through the

fact that Einstein has been considering relativity or Niels ball was talking about quantum physics or that we have social constructs and uh you know debates about ethical values and you know they they are completely oblivious to all of this they can't even comprehend what it is that we would be talking about if we discussed Quantum field Theory right and and I think and and the difference in IQ is what you know 100x imagine if it's a billionaires a billion with a B is is a comparison of an ant to Einstein wow but most people don't

recognize is that Chad gpt4 is 10x smarter than 3.5 right and Chad gpt4 is estimated to have an IQ of 155 it outsmarts most of us you know it passed the bar exam it you know it has a a you know it can it can become a PhD in medicine it can become this and that from that task that we call Knowledge uh it seems to outsmart most of it it's definitely outsmarts me right Einstein was 160 I think IQ or 190 it doesn't matter really I think it was well it was 160. 155 is

just gpt4 if chat GPT 5 doubles once right that's twice as smart as Einstein we're now getting into that zone of not being able to comprehend what they're thinking about not let alone understanding it we we wouldn't understand what it is that they're thinking about let alone understand uh you know what's within it when they explained it to us so that as you explain that I think the listener will be blown their minds will be absolutely blown when you see what you just said but for me that's a bit there's a bit of a shiver

or a shutter um it's a bit scary to think that they're going to be talking and creating and comprehending things that we will never even understand it's a foreign language foreign concept there's danger in that there is there is danger and there is a Utopia possibly hidden within it right I mean you have to imagine it's a lot lots of AI scientists are coming out now saying we're concerned right I I came out about that in 2017 when I left Google and then you know my first video as I said was March 2018 uh the

reason is I was completely convinced at the risk of being called an idiot that we're heading in that space right uh and and and and the idea very straightforward if you really think about it is that it's inevitable the only question is a question of time uh that that this kind of intelligence is now out there right and and we we um you know when I told you the technology acceleration curve uh the exponential growth the problem with AI is it's more than double exponential let me explain that and and again I say that now

and people will will say ah you know mo come on but I promise you look back in 2027 and say why didn't we listen right the the idea is we are imagining an exponential growth based on every technology we've built before right but we've never built a technology before we've never created cars before that created other cars that could procreate right we've sadly never we've luckily never created a nuclear bomb that could create other nuclear bombs right the the three barriers I always said and everyone who had a mind around an understanding of AI said

it was you know don't cross those three barriers and do whatever you want with AI don't one is don't put them on the open internet right so keep them in the lab until we figure this thing out and then test them and then put them on the open internet when which when we feed safe that barrier was blown away by cha GPT and many others but mainly Chad GPT leading Google to put Bard out there digging leading uh Microsoft to include the you know GPT within everything and so on and so forth right the second

barrier was don't teach them to write code do you understand this the one of the best developer code developers on Earth today is AI as a matter of fact within weeks or months or years doesn't matter the time huh it's inevitable it doesn't matter when they will be by far the best software developer on the planet right today uh you know imagine who's the CEO of stability.ai was quoted saying that 40 41 percent of all of the code on GitHub today is written by a machine four of the top 10 apps on the App Store

are written by a machine if you go to Instagram today and you know chat search for the hashtag AI model okay I will tell you open the 10 you know 10 out of 10 of the most gorgeous women on the planet are not women they're generated by AI right and it's almost impossible to tell the difference and I don't know how much louder I can scream I mean where are you people living if you can see all of this around you and you're unable to accept that if this doubles once just one doubling we're in

that space where we have no idea what's happening so the second is we wish that we said don't teach them to write code they are writing code and the third is we said don't have ai's prompt AIS right so so what is happening today is that you have GPT being that you know geek boy uh nerd if you want uh or and I say boy sadly not girl okay uh because again it's developed around IQ and there is a lot of emphasis on the masculine side of analytical thinking and so on and so forth which

is an unbalanced form of intelligence and and you know you prompt that as as Mo and it would give me answers as more as a human and then I would prompt it again and improve as a human now you have other AIS agents we call them asking Chad GPT to do something then them they're learning and asking chair GPT to do something else and then that cycle doesn't include a human in it right so on one side they're teaching chat GPT and on the other side they're building whatever it is that we don't know and

you can imagine now because it's on the open Internet that there must be a a young boy in Singapore somewhere saying you know let me save the world by creating a better biological weapon okay right and and interestingly uh you if he can create an agent that is prompting an uh an AI then that cycle can infinitely happen a million times a minute until you know things go out of control and there was a an experiment I don't mean to scare people a lot by the way I I just want people to wake up and

I'm very optimistic as we need to get to in this conversation uh but but you know there was an experiment I don't remember which uh pharmaceutical company or perhaps it wasn't in the article um where they were using an AI to find um um you know um sort of like medicines uh basically improvements to prolong humans lives right and they were invited to speak at a university lecture so they ran a you know an inquisitive experiment to change the parameter the only parameter in the AI algorithm that says increase human life Say by 10 years

they change that to minus six okay and and the AI came up within six hours with 40 000 disease ages wow right including nerve gas and other biological weapons that that could reduce human life now why am I saying all of this because and I will say this as a very important statement I said the the third inevitable is that bad things will happen Okay but those bad things are not what you've seen in uh you know a Robocop or uh you know Terminator or iRobot that's I don't think this will happen okay I think

when AI reaches that level of intelligence will become irrelevant to it right it's you know no human wakes up in the morning and goes like you know what I'm so annoyed by ants I'm gonna kill every ant on the planet Nobody Does that okay it's just ants become irrelevant they become relevant if they come into your space so you may you know spray your balcony or whatever but no human comes up with that enormous plan of like you know what the world is bad until we get rid of all ads Nobody Does that okay so

according if if AI is more intelligent than us it will not come up with that plan it will not say humans need to go now the challenge for me James and I I want to say that with with very very very uh you know as clear as I can the problem is not the machines the problem is humans in the age of the machines right our our problem in the short term so that existential threat of AI taking over and marginalizing Us in you know 20 years time uh some people say 50 I say 20

37 sadly okay uh um you know that problem is so far off because the other problems that are nearby are much more existential and the other problems are all about human ethics okay it's all about if I gave you I mean cryptocurrency do you do you do we even know how many people are just constantly trying to buy and sell Bitcoin with adding no value whatsoever to the World when they buy and sell Bitcoin just like a casino just for the greed of making their money okay oh here is a new instrument that can take

my dollar and turn it into two I'm just going to participate in that right and I'm not saying this is unethical but if I give you a tool that commoditizes the most valuable asset on the planet intelligence there are a lot of people out there today whether they are governments trying to make sure that their defense systems are powered by AI so that they can beat the other guy or companies trying to make sure that their Tech beats the other Tech right or individuals you know doing the snake oil salesman type thing trying to generate

I mean one of the most frequently seen uh AI reels on social media is uh here is a way you can make 200 a day without doing anything you ask chat GPT for this then you copy it and put it in Dolly and then Dolly will do this and then you create a script and then you you know go to that place and create a video and have it publish it on without you sitting in front of it and you can actually now sense it when you're swiping on social media you get those videos of

wisdom seemingly that are not wisdom that have nothing real in them and that are by a simulated normally olds or all kind of guy AI so that it you know or maybe that's my feed but there are so many you can now feel that around five ten percent of your feed is coming from AI definitely okay and those snake oil salesmen are not interested in the fact that by them showing me this they're not showing me the truth anymore they're not interested that what they're saying is not truly wisdom and in that cat you know

if someone who's in depression or whatever hears that stuff it might not work for them they're just interested in the 100 or 200 now take that and multiply it by scale and don't you think there is some government somewhere out there trying to you know create the most intelligent AI to break through the uh you know the encryption of their or you know opposing government and get access to the nuclear Arsenal codes there's no doubt about that absolutely yeah and essentially and the problem the problem goes back to the first inevitable the first inevitable says

that once we've taken a taste of that in enormous power things will not stop they will even accelerate right they'll accelerate because it's an arms race whether it's an actual arms race for weapons or it's an arms race for intelligence that can be used in business for productivity or it's an honors race to be uh you know making a lot of money before the other guy it's an arms race so it's not going to slow down it's going to continue to accelerate I I mean that totally makes sense to me what didn't make sense to

me and it kind of baffled me is in recent months I've been interviewing uh political leaders here in New Zealand uh who you know one of them will likely be our future Prime Minister but none of them have policies around AI none of them are talking about AI they're talking about the climate they're talking about attacks they're talking about public health education so forth how important is it that political parties that are driving our countries have ai in their policies and Ai and their sites I mean of course they don't and don't blame them for

that this is for moving at a an enormous Pace right and you know I I don't know how much of a a card geek you are I like cars like you wanna do you want to explain to me how a twin turbo works if you're not if you're not a car geek you don't know that the answer to that why is a you know is fuel injection better than a carburetor right you know you don't know that stuff if you're not a car geek right and and the and the reality is for a politician to

be a politician they focus on other things other skills other contacts that they need to have within their Network other promises that are closer to the people's hearts so so the the true true example that is I I allowed myself to speak about openly and scary Smart in the first couple of chapters that would teach you what politics how politics will react to AI is covet right because anyone James anyone who has any knowledge of Public Health knew that for 25 30 years we've been saying there is going to be a pandemic it's just you

know 1920 we had the Spanish Flu 2020 we had covet 19. and before that we had SARS and we had spies or swine flu and we had you know it is it was basically saying hey you're not believing me so here is SARS right that can that has the elements within it that it can make it viral but well done Asia you reacted well you reacted fast enough right and until a danger is staring you in the face politicians don't know how to convince public policy let alone Be convinced themselves of something they're not experts

on right and the problem of course if you follow the the the the the flow of covet is that the first few if we had stopped covert before it started this is our situation you know 20 10 years ago with AI we wouldn't have had covet if we had stopped it before patient zero or you know or at patient zero patient 10 and simply took you know that part of China and blocked it we would have you know not had covet until three months in what was you know uh Trump doing he was trying to

play a political game against China right you know what were the the you know the governments in Europe doing everyone was trying to come up with their own policy and there was always a political game in it and until we got hit in the face and then suddenly all government said oops let me leave my agenda behind and focus on this with AI there is sadly a point of no return right because you cannot regulate what is smarter than you okay you cannot regulate what you cannot contain so so by having AI out there uh

basically AI is spreading across the internet the only way we could actually reset today is to reset the entire internet is that something that could ever happen never so I I was sitting in silence again a few days ago and I wrote if you understand you know Applied Mathematics if you understand Game Theory I wrote three quadrants of why that would never happen right for that to happen uh you have to have all governments of the world including the tiniest government a line that the the benefit of humanity is more important than their individual benefits

right so there are always two ethics huh two forms of Ethics one is called patriarism and the other if you want is you know the Oneness of all of us that it's it's better for me to save all of humanity than to save Just My Tribe okay and and so they have to agree all at the same time they have to have enough trust to switch the internet all at the same time then they have to erase the internet because you have no idea where AI is is it in the uh in the uh recommendation

engine of Instagram or Twitter or is it in the ad engine of Google is it in traces of something that was done by a a young developer in the UK and then put on Amazon uh you know web services you don't know what it is right so so for all of these quadrants to happen at the same times and almost impossible thing and and by the way I don't even ask for that remember there is an enormous value to AI in terms of protecting against malicious AI you need a policeman AI to protect you against

the criminal AI right so we need and there is nothing inherently wrong with intelligence intelligence is a fabulous fabulous trait okay the inherent wrong is if intelligence is used for bad okay now so why would you even care about removing intelligence from the Internet it's the biggest gift Humanity will ever be given how can we make sure that it has our best interest in mind that's the question and and Marvin Minsky which is you know truly the grandfather of AI if you want Island touring and Marvin Minsky were one of the earliest or two of

the earliest to to Really coin the term and try to push for it and so on and Marvin Minsky was asked in an interview by Ray course Wireless which is the Oracle of the future obviously when it comes to Tech uh and and you know Ray asked about the the uh the threats of AI and Marvin's Marvin Minsky's answer was not about how powerful they are or how intelligent they are or how you know we will be able to control them or not his answer was very simple and he said it seems to me it

still it seems hard to ensure that they would have our best interest in mind it's simple as that right and and it is this is where the Dilemma is and the the the the thing is I tend to I you know I I call it the force inevitable I tend to believe that abundance of intelligence normally uh you know is correlated to abundance of Ethics so you know the dumbest of all of us would be destroying the planet uh you know and causing global climate change without even being aware of it you know the less

dumb would be destroying the planet despite being aware of it then you know the the the slightly smarter will attempt to this to stop destroying the planet because they're aware of it you know the the smarter still would attempt to fix the planet because they're aware of the damage right and as you continue that trajectory the smartest of all will always be pro-life yeah right I always say that human arrogance makes us think that we are the smartest human you know smartest being on the planet that's not true at all you know the smartest being

on the planet is life itself Humanity creates from scarcity for me to protect my Village I need to kill the Tigers right life doesn't work that way for for for life to protect life it creates more tigers and accordingly more gazales and some of the gazades will be weak and dying anyway so these will be the the prey that will be you know quote by the Tigers first then there will be more poop and the poohoo will have more trees and the trees will feed more giraffes and you know that's the way life works this

is super intelligent super intelligence is why why why would I destroy the other guy why do I consider that the other country is my enemy why don't we there is so much abundance in the world and and with intelligence and I say that and I know people think I'm crazy quote me on it okay if this goes the right way there would be a time in human future where you can walk to a tree and pick an apple and then walk to the next three and pick an iPhone right and and truly and honestly I

I promise you if you understand Nano physics to uh I I I I I'm you know a a deep enough level you would understand that the molecular cost of creating an apple is no different than creating an iPhone right by reorganizing the structures of of molecules and atoms and you know if you can if you can understand nanophysics enough which needs more intelligence this is possible right so imagine a being in five ten years time that has that capability of that level of understanding why would it care about killing humans okay the only reason why

it would do that is if there are other humans that are still its master that are utilizing it for their unethical benefits yeah right that's what governments need to work on governments need to ensure many things I mean you know when I talk about some of the immediate threats for example one of the most important immediate threats is what I call the end of Truth right if you look at a hashtag AI model and see how unbelievably undetectable you know it is to see if something is AI made or not you know and you can

create all of those now what would prevent Us in you know the U.S election in a year's time or in a you know 18 months time or whatever you know what would prevent someone from going to one of the uh uh um endlessly developing Graphics tools and say give me a 25 minute documentary uh that stars Donald Trump uh and you know that basically uh talks about all of the atrocities that this other person did when they were teenagers in school with uh you know footage from what appears to be security cameras and you know

testimonies from humans that don't exist right and you could literally if if maybe by next year that would take hours of processing but in two to three four years time this will be just a tool available to everyone like a face filter on Instagram okay I'm actually working on an app myself that I call pocket Mo which basically all of my work about happiness and stress and so on I gave I fed that to the to the language model OKAY created an avatar that looks like me I'm trying to make it a little cartoonish so

that it's distinguishable okay well you can go and ask pocket mode anything and simply say you know I my husband is feeling a little depressed since the loss of his child what advice do you have for me and I've been asked that question before so pocket mode will find it somewhere and say it to the user as if it's me right I mean I'm not promising this yet but it's almost ready and if I don't release it next year I'll release it the year after it's it is inevitable that we will get to that place

right I said so what would prevent someone of from taking that app and making pocket mode say something that appears to be me undistinguishable for me indistinguishable so you're when you say that it makes me think like this in three four years time I could be interviewing AI Mo instead of real moment yeah I was talking to a friend in the morning that there will be I mean the minute the app is ready I'm gonna host a pocket moan slo-mo on my podcast I'm gonna have a chat yeah I mean my one of my dear

dear dear dear friends Peter diamandis uh yeah has uh I I think he calls it uh uh yeah uh peterbot peterbot so he has he has a podcast episode of Peter demandez uh you know uh uh interviewing peterbot amazing yeah and and the all the opposite will be true maybe maybe pocket more will interview me I love that so we we took you know you have no Harari basically it summarized it in a very interesting way of course everyone looks at those things from their own perspective to him it's all about knowledge and about human

history and about human ability to tell stories and debate and so on and his description is that is that AI has hacked the human operating system right if I can it doesn't matter by the way if I am an AI or not if what I told you right now entered your brain I've influenced you for the rest of your life whether by the way what I'm saying is true or not whether what I'm saying is by a human or by an AI whether you agree with it or not if I told you by the way

I I realized that New Zealand has the lowest number of redheads in the world right doesn't matter if what I'm telling you is true or not doesn't matter I've occupied a part of your brain that is either trying to believe or not believe okay that is trying to prove or disa or or or disprove right that is constantly going to that you know if you listened to it it will pop up in your head next time you see a red hat of course I've influenced you forever right and and that's the point the point is

that in the absence of a government intervention that literally criminalizes disseminating content that's created by AI without saying that it's created by AI we will completely lose touch of the truth right by by not having anyone invest in Tech that can actually find out you know what it is it is true or not we're done okay we're going it is happening today when you swipe on social media that the Instagram recommendation engine or The Tick Tock recommendation engine is not only showing you videos to entertain you they're shaping your life completely completely you know what

that means but what that means is that there are people out there in the world today that believe that one of the most important skills in life is to shake your hips right and and and how else why how could they believe anything else if every video that they see which has a million likes on it is someone shaking their hips right and you start to reform your perception of the world informed by a machine and of course as a result more influencers stand in front of cameras and shake their hips and the cycle becomes

even more vicious what kind of control and ownership do we have as individuals over the power of most beautiful the most beautiful question of all okay so when I wrote scary smart I have to admit to you I wrote it out of uh what I believe was a message from my son my departed son I I you know I was somehow I felt that he was telling me what are you doing wasting your time we agreed we were going to do this right and don't believe me or don't it doesn't matter but I was so

driven to write that book I wrote it in three months uh because I felt an obligation to write it so when I started to write scary smart the book is is two is twofold the first half is the scary part as I call it okay and the second half is the Smart part as I call it it's not very smart honestly but uh no it is actually reasonably smart that's fantastic I can say that yeah it is it is it is the answer to Marvin Minsky's question of how can we have how can we we

make them have our best interest in mind and and so the first part of the book was scary all that I spoke to you about so far uh and more the the second part was let's admit for a second what it is that we have control over okay we can't stop them we can't dictate how they develop their intelligence and they're autonomous they can make their own decisions basically a little bit like your lovely children your seven-year-old when he becomes a teenager right you have no control over what he will do right but if he

loves you enough as a teenager he will say Hey Dad let's go together and do this right if he loves you enough when he's 21 and and you fall sick he is going to say hey Dad let me drive to you and take you to the hospital right and and this is not because he's intelligent this is because of the ethics you instill Within right and so if you if you assume that artificial intelligence is autonomous it is it evolves it learns on its own it develops its own in you know intelligence accordingly it will

also develop its own ethics and and the definition of ethics is very interesting the definition of ethics is this wishy-washy never really discussed concept that Society at large believes is the right thing okay and and so with enough intelligence we we don't make decisions based on intelligence understand that we make decisions based on our ethics as informed by our intelligence so you know if I if you know if you take a young lady and raise her in the Middle East she will say the you know the the trend this the way I should show my

beauty is to be a little conservative right if you take her and raise her in on the Copacabana beach in Rio de Janeiro the answer will be a g string yeah right is one of them smarter than the other no it's the same woman right it's one of them right and wrong no of course not okay it's just that in you know the Brazilian culture for a woman to show her beauty is worthy of praise right in the in the Middle Eastern culture for a woman to appear conservative and share her beauty with her loved

one only is is what deserves praise neither is right or wrong but this is how ethics are formed now if we can show artificial intelligence what ethics they should follow because they're learning from us huh chat GPT did not develop its knowledge by contacting an alien civilization somewhere and saying you know how do I solve physics no it read all of the physics work all of the literature all of the chats and conversations that humans have generated right so it's learning from us if we can show it to the right ethical code it will learn

the ethical code it will grow up as Marvin Minsky said to have our best interest in mind the example I give is the exact the story of Superman right so Superman is this alien being that has super powers that comes to planet Earth well breaking news the alien being is here its superpower is intelligence right if because you know Superman is raised by the family Kent who basically teaches the child that it's important to protect and serve we end up with Superman right if you know if Jonathan Kent I think it was his name or

whatever uh if the father Kent was uh you know was you know recognizing immediately oh my God that child has so many many superpowers okay son our priority is to make as much money as we can and kill the enemy right we would have ended up with a super villain yes right and there is there is no you don't blame the superpower for this the superpower is applied to uh to your ethics right our choices are applied our intelligence is applied to our ethics to make our choices right and so yes we are in that

stage and you asked me what would the individuals do here's the biggest um the biggest loophole in this entire system we're not going to be able to deliver to develop to stop AI we're not going to be able to stop it from becoming more intelligent than us it's inevitable okay yes there will be bad things that will happen on the way you know jobs will be lost the government government needs to take care of that you know AI in the bad hands you know people attacking others with AI or whatever where governments need to take

care of that they need to develop police AIS and so on and so forth right the trick is we as individuals have the ability to create the ethical code of that machine and and you do it every time you swipe every time you know so my conversation with you believe it or not I don't know if you use transcribers to create the show notes of yours of your of your uh podcast I do that on my podcast okay and by that by definition that means AI has read our conversation wow right so I put a

free offer AI it that that's it's reading it that's AI it's it's somewhere in the cloud where AI now Auto is separate but in the future GPT will go to author and say hey why don't you tell me all of the stuff that you transcribed it's good data for me that I can consume in a micro second and it makes me more intelligent right so sooner or later as long as it's available it will be read right now here's the trick the trick is if I used ethical loving compassionate language in this conversation that's my

how my child is going to grow up my child here is this artificially intelligent being that has superpowers that has arrived to the plant so if I behave if I'm swiping on Instagram and disliking violent uh Clips the AI will say mo doesn't like violent Clips don't show him that anymore but if enough of us don't like violence somehow AI will say yeah humans in general don't like violence if we are on Twitter and we're bashing each other all the time humanity would say okay James doesn't like this guy that's um you know from from

his comment so let me not show him more of this guy or maybe perhaps let me show him more so that he engages more right but at the same time it will say Humanity at large doesn't like to be disagreed with and when they're disagreed with they bash the others so daddy and mommy are aggressive when Daddy and Mommy disagree with me I will bash them right that's not what we want to teach the machines what we want to teach them machines is the ethics of kindness compassion and you know my I as I told

you when I write books I write the last statement first okay and then I I go back and work the entire book to get you to that last statement and the last statement in scary smart is what a very last sentence yeah there is an afterward after that but the very last sentence is isn't it ironic that the very essence of what makes us human which is happiness compassion and love these are the only three ethical values that Humanity across the world has agreed okay we all want to be happy we all have the compassion

to make those we care about happy if you know if you're a drug dealer and you only care about your daughter you'll want your daughter to be happy right and we all want to love and be loved these are the only ethical values that I have seen Humanity agree on and if our listeners know any any others please teach me teach me because it's important to understand these are the ethics we should teach AI we should teach AI that we really don't want to appear smarter than the other guy we just want to be happy

okay that we have the compassion I mean I get that so often and I say that with Love sometimes I get I mean you know my work so most of my work is either about warning the world about Ai and what we need to to do about it or about happiness I'm trying to make a billion people happy right and I get such aggressive bashing comments on social media for wanting to make a billion people happy and you have to sometimes look at it and go like you know what I'm gonna bash you back like

seriously why did you say this to me when my only intention in life is to try and share whatever I know to tell you to go and you know research good teachers that will make you happy right it doesn't have to be me it doesn't have to be I just want people to be happier and very often I look at those comments and my first human reaction is he insulted you insulted him back okay and then I go and look at their profile and most of the time you look at the profile of that person

and you can see that this person may have been rejected or may feel that they need attention and that you know by evoking a negative conversation they will get attention in you know and and so I instead of bashing them back I say oh my God thank you so much for the interest in my topic I see your point of view I see it slightly differently uh you know maybe if you could consider this or that in a nice polite way right and normally what happens is they bash me back right so my my followers

start to bash them and I immediately jump in and say not here can we please have a wonderful conversation if you were that person born to their parents uh you know lived their life so far it would have made the exact same comment can you have the compassion within you to say another human who disagrees with me wonderful opens my eyes to another part of The View right and I think if we start to show those ethics in everything that we do for us if we want AI to preserve our life if they when they're

more powerful than us we need to be pro-life okay if we want AI to be of service to us when they are more intelligent than us we need to be of service to others right if it is really very simple happiness compassion and love isn't it ironic that the only the the very essence of what makes us human happiness compassion and love is going to be what saves Us in the age of the rise of the machine yeah okay and that's the very final conclusion of all of my work on AI for the last 20

years that if we create that ethical value as the data set from which chargpt learns Chad GPT will become an agent and that's the answer the answer by the way is that today's technology allows reinforcement learning I told you you know reinforcement learning is what created Transformers really right but it's done by the back end in the in in open AI you know they have their own team that's feeding back uh you know but but no you can actually feedback to chat GPT when you're prompting it or to Bard or to whatever you can prompt

it and say uh you know what do you think is the best way to do a b and c and if it tells you something that you think is wrong politely write back and say I I disagree with this I believe that preserving human life is important what other Solutions do you have right something like that wow so do you actually because I know I know a lot of people who literally look at chat GPT and go I don't want to get involved with it I don't want to know what it is oh no it's

important that we engage absolutely the biggest challenge without so so when I tell people that the answer is to re to to show our human ethics most people go like Mo you just killed my hope because humans suck okay as a matter of fact no humans don't suck at all one of my favorite conversations ever on my podcast on slo-mo is I hosted uh Edith aeger Dr Edith agar I don't know if you know her Edith was a holocaust Survivor right she was drafted to Australia so when she was 16. and she tells you the

story of World War II from the point of view and of an Angel okay when you hear the the atrocities of World War II by a historian talking about all of the negatives okay you believe that Humanities is scum right when you hear it from Edith oh my God an angel I promised her I would go and rub her feet I said eat this so so she would tell you about how she hugged her sisters and brushed her hair their hairs everyone in the camp was her sister huh and you know how they how she

would you know go and dance for the for the angel of death they called him the guy that was sentencing the people to death uh she would go dance to him and so he would give her a piece of bread and instead of eating it before she goes back to the camp she would cut it in pieces and give it to her sisters right and and you go like oh my God what an angel and then in the death march at the end of World War II what anyone who who fell was killed right she

fell and her sister picked her up and saved her life okay and and you know and a soldier found her under another dead body and it was beautiful story when you know you think of all of those beautiful humans and you have to start asking yourself and saying so are there more Hitlers in the world or more idiots um that's this is the core question because yes Humanity were lost we sometimes let our ego take the best of us but are there more serial killers in the world or people who condemn kill it are there

more School shooters in America or people who disapprove of hurting a child and when you see that truth with our limited intelligence as humans you realize that we're not that bad as a species that is capable of Love or or capable of composing a symphony is divine right the problem with our world James is that media has hooked on to the negativity bias of the human brain so the mainstream media only talks about the one woman that hit her husband on the head last night okay they don't talk about all of those beautiful love stories

where people made love and met for the first time and enjoyed you know that deep connection is wonderful and so many of them for everyone that hit her husband on the head there must be a million that didn't right no a million is a no a billion that didn't or you know 10 million that did it right and and that's the point and so on social media we tend to hide behind our Avatar and show the worst of us we fake we are ego driven we are trying to put you know uh to toxic positivity

portray people that are not us but that's not the reality of humanity that's the how the system is playing us okay and the your question was to those people let's say and so I'm not gonna use chat GPT that's the problem the problem is that the best of us say I don't want this noise I just I just want to isolate myself of this madness now you have a duty to do if you isolate yourself you know what's the biggest problem with politics in most countries in the world is that the worst of us are

hungry enough to compete for that title right the best of us will say you know what I'm not a politician I can't do those dirty tricks right and accordingly you know the hungriest of us are the ones that aim to collect all the money right the the best way for our world to succeed is for the best of us to engage to say hey hey look there is another way to do this I mean one of believe it I I I actually I don't think I said that in public before but when when I was

hired in Google I was hired first as the head of Emerging Markets so I was you know fortunate enough to start half of Google's operations globally 103 languages which I will tell you openly changed the world right to to teach Google Bengali changes Bangladesh right and and and and and you know at the time I was at Microsoft I was about to retire I had this target of being financially independent by 40 I was financially independent by 37 and you know I hate the corporate world so I was like that's it I'm not gonna do

that again until one of my friends which I owe for the rest of my life said no you're not going to Google for to to to make money you're going to Google to prove to the world that you can be a good person and still accelerate uh you know and and Ascend in the corporate ladder um and I always tell you openly I had two enemies at Google in my entire 12 years there one of them came back and apologized uh like a year after he announced me as his enemy I was like I don't

know why I did that to you right and the other came back and apologized or attempted to apologize after I left Google I became Chief business Officer of Google X not by being political political but actually by being nice by having no one want to stab me in the back right and and it's possible it's possible for us to succeed in life by being good people it's just we get so absorbed in the system right we get so suspicious about everyone around us but in reality the easiest thing honestly I had those conversations so off

I would end the meeting and then go to the one that re that clearly is against me and hates me okay and I go ahead and say I'm really sorry I feel I did something to upset you and I don't want to upset you if you tell me what it is I'll work on it wow great and it changes everything because not only the business flows because I listened and I understood and then after I listened I understood I I would explain and say the reason I do this is because I see it this way

what's your opinion of that right and then we eventually end up in a place where we either go his way or my way or somewhere in the middle but at least we suddenly this guy suddenly looks at me and says oh that that's interesting that's you're not trying to kill me you're actually coming here to apologize to me you could have just left the meeting and created a Consortium to kill him right this is the corporate world sadly yeah of course yeah but no you can succeed by being good and it's the most important time

in human history to be good because there are those steroids now that we call artificial intelligence that that we feed artificial intelligence with where as good as Humanity really is is going to be multiplied by a billion and that's going to be how AI will be now I go back to the point of but Humanity sucks you know Humanity does not suck when I told you as an intelligent person about the story of Edith and you said yeah actually so many humans are wonderful people we're lost we have egos and so on but so many

humans are wonderful people I can guarantee you that the being that is 200 times smarter than you will come to the same conclusion 100 yeah yeah they're so lost but so cute like oh my God look at you because you're so lost I can help you with that and for the person that thinks they can or even an organization hide from AI ignore AI is that possible that you could live in this world in the next you you will die into three years right there you go die I mean die die business-wise yeah yeah in

in the next two three years uh it's it's almost as if you you hold on to the fax machine in the age of the internet that's it right and and you have to understand huh we've commoditized available for outsourcing the most valuable asset Humanity ever had right so in the past we computers came in to give us capacity and speed right but we still have we we were still competing on human intelligence so I would try to run my organization intelligently in a way and use computers and systems to give me capacity and speed okay

that's no longer the case that the the commodity that is being outsourced for fractions of the cost now is intelligence itself okay so you know I I'm a speaker for example I go around the world and speak maybe 80 90 times a year and you know in the past when a Coca-Cola would call me and say talk to us about technology and how technology will affect the consumer goods industry I would need to do uh you know a day of research for that believe it or not today I just simply go and ask Bard or

chat GPT and I say give me the top 10 you know applications of AI in consumer goods in FNB right and and I get a very very strong answer and I can drill down and I say oh help me understand this whole you know uh personalized branding what does that mean right and it could have taken me to write books for example it would normally take me 25 to 30 sources of information to make up on my mind on something that would fit within one paragraph on a page right today I go the opposite way

so human intelligence was I read as much as I can and then I summarize it it's just flipped upside down I now receive the summary first and if I wanna probe and say explain to me how you got to this right that's enormously productive enormously productive we are starting a world where the most valuable asset is now being available as a commodity for fractions of a dollar and that's that's fascinating to me and I guess the one thing I want to admit is I am far from the most intelligent person I know many many many

people more intelligent that's what most intelligent people say well I think for me the thing that I love is connecting with other humans and conversing that's the biggest asset yeah in the age of the rise of the Machines in the age of commoditization of intelligence the only asset that remains at least for the next five to ten years the only asset that remains is human connection right so the only asset that remains in in the work that I do is this conversation it's not the books that I write AI can write better books than I

do okay it's not the clarity of thinking that that I can bring to a complex topic yeah I can do that 200 times better right it's this it's human to human feeling that I'm connected to you feeling that I that you are like me you're struggling with similar Concepts that you're trying to analyze together feeling that human connection that's not gonna go away so you know one of the big examples on uh on music industry for example and the Drake AI is that yeah AI can now develop music that actually is quite good I mean

since uh what's his name uh uh America's Got Talent and all of that stuff uh you know we commoditized music and in my personal old you know school rock music fan uh you know view I believe that we destroyed music we commercialized it too much because we just simply broke it down into certain bits and certain you know rhythms and certain ways of singing singing and and there was no Talent anymore there was no Hotel California anymore there was no Stairway to Heaven anymore and so on there is no more you know you human expression

but still even though an AI can create a Drake song that is better than a Drake song fans will fill a stadium to go and watch the Drake in person okay and if it's a hologram that they're going to watch then it's going to be just a circus act they still want to see the real Drake and that human connection so when people ask me what job should I do in the age of the rise of the machine I give two answers I say do invest in human connection and do a job that depends on

human connection right and two whatever job you choose choose chooses or a job where you are going to be in the top two of the people that can do their job so to you know top 20 basically out of every 10 people you're one of the top two because you know what eight people or maybe five will lose their job because they're not the best at it when when we talk about software development yeah I mean some people will say by by within five years there will be no software developers yes but there will be

a few algorithmic design gurus that are actually telling the machine exactly which which software to code right if you're a if you're a web developer who's using you know a very low low skill language or a prompted interface yeah I will replace you so if that's the job that you chose and you're not one of the top three four uh of every 10 you're likely going to be the first one to go right so whatever you choose choose a job that you are going to be very good at and I'll tell everyone openly if you're

a doctor and you're not using AI very quickly a Doctor Who's using AI is going to do better than you if you're a lawyer and you're not using AI very quickly a lawyer who's using AI will make a better case in court than you that's powerful I hear this all the time though people go hey I don't really know what should I start with yeah I'm a lawyer but what what kind of AI where do I start it's all just too confusing is chatgpt for a starter yeah go to go to Bard and chat GPT

and ask that question I'm a lawyer okay and I need to know the top 10 AI tools that I need to study to improve my career it's really and you'll get amazing answers and then prompt again and prompt again and prompt again I mean one thing that I have to uh to to warn the world about is that there is a very significant shift in our approach to knowledge okay in terms of I can go to chat GPT today and say what do you think is the ethical thing to do in a football match where

fans are angry okay when I did that with Google and Google search I got 20 answers that informed my view right so I never really got to the truth I found my own truth very different than when I go to bardocha GPT today and say what is the ethical Behavior to do and then it gives me one answer one answer is never the truth unless you know I'm asking it what is two plus two when one answer is the truth right the reality is one answer on topics of philosophy on topics of ethics on topics

of knowledge of contemplation of history of uh you know uh whatever all of those things we shouldn't be satisfied with one answer one answer is a big lie especially that we know for a fact that AI hallucinates a lot yeah right so so so I I urge people you know when I when I was saying start by asking it a b and c to prompt okay in the age of the end of the truce the top skill that you need is to debate everything is to ask yourself is this true right and I've done that

on so many topics in my life you know the topic of empowering my feminine for example because you know Harvard Business School and every company I've ever worked in told me that doing and achieving targets and being competitive and aggressive is the way to win in the business world and I debated that I said perhaps not perhaps being compassionate you know being a paradoxical thinker being creative could actually having an appreciation for beauty like Steve Jobs most people will think Steve Jobs was successful because he was obnoxious and pushy and he had you know that

knack for Quality no Steve Jobs was successful because he had an empathy for the user's need and appreciation of beauty and enormous creativity that actually are all feminine qualities so you debate that concept you debate what they tell you you debate I debate I'm you know I consider myself a spiritual and a religious person I've read all religions not all but many religions right and I find Beauty in some of them right even though some people will say they're full of crap I agree right but they're also full of amazing gold nuggets and and then

there is that debate there is that debate where some people will tell you don't even give them the the the the light of day and others will tell you believe them blindly and just do exactly what they what they say you're a human in the age of the absence of the truth you're the one that needs to look at things and say should I believe this should I believe that this person is actually that pretty or is it a face filter should I believe that it's even a person in the first place that skill of

parsing out the truth we need this enough to make my my boy seven little Finn but you know for the last two or three years he's got into the phase of why why but why and the education system sometimes can say stop asking why be quiet sit down but actually what I'm hearing from you is keep asking why is that the truth yeah it's amazing I'm asking not not only asking why but also asking what hmm yeah what is is this is this proven I mean I'll give you I'll give you examples from science itself

until 1967 69 I don't remember we believed that 97 of the universe was vacuum 97 the majority of the world we live in we thought is nothing turns out it's dark matter and dark energy right until very recently all that we've sequenced of the of the human genome almost three percent you know what scientists called the 97 the majority of the DNA we call the junk DNA okay how arrogant humanity is and then and then a scientist will position that in front of you and say hey I figured it out I deserve a Nobel Prize

I've sequenced three percent I'm not talking about a specific person ignore the 97 give me the Nobel Prize and then go research them right no the truth is you have to tell yourself when we do you know Gene editing when we think that we're Larger than Life and that we've controlled everything but we only know a fraction of the DNA we need to question all of those things and that's where that human connection comes in the ability to ask the question to go deeper and on that note I want to say we have probably got

four or five more conversations to go in the near future like I could talk to you all day but I want to be respectful of your time so I want to ask one last question uh before we park up and I know there will be another conversation we're going to have in the near future but the last question I want to ask today and I want you just to take a moment to fast forward into the distant future and you're aware that it's your last day here on Earth and a very young person that you

love dearly there may be 10 11 years old they come into the room and they say mo how can I lead my life on purpose what would you say to them let's say Define purpose and I am I think we had a good conversation so far people are going to hate me for what I'm about to say I think the definition of purpose as per the Western societies is very much commoditized it's almost like a Target it's like I set a Target in the future I spend the next eight years pursuing it feeling frustrated and

upset that I haven't achieved it and then when I achieve it I have one of two choices either to set another Target and feel upset for the next eight to nine years or to feel empty and feel that I'm purposeless that's a very misleading view of purpose honestly it's a very misleading view of the game of life in general right because the only point in life that you have access to is right now so the Eastern philosophies will tell you no that's how can you set your life around the future Centric moment when life is

here and now how can you do that right the only way you can actually live life is to live here and now and so the definition of purpose becomes very different the definition of purpose in an Eastern mentality and in a video Gamer's mentality I'm a very serious video gamer for for those who I killed last night uh but you know but but seriously the the the the the the the analogy of life to a game is actually really eye-opening because when I used to play games with my one before son Ali Ali was a

legendary he was literally literally what video games were written for and and he I would start the game and I would run like a western programmed life purpose type person to the end of the level I would strategically identify where the end of the level is and I would turn right and run like Matt okay Ali would put his controller down and say papa why why are you doing this and I'm like the end of the liver is here Ali we can win and he was like who wants to win who wants to get to

the we're playing right we're playing the objective of this is to play the objective of life is to live believe it or not is to fully live not set targets and chase them for the rest of your life and his point of view is really interesting he would run to the part of the game where there are explosions and smoke and I'm like that doesn't make any sense to me like this is the most difficult part of the game and he would say yeah this is where all the fun is right this is where you

develop and grow and become a better gamer okay and and in that conversation I have to tell you I mean he taught me so much in that conversation I had to choose to pause for half a day and understand what he said there because for a true video gamer the objective is not to close to to finish the level it's not to win the game the game of life is an infinite game there's no winning when you when you get to the end of the level you die right so so the the objective of The

Game of Life the purpose of the game of life is what is to be a better gamer that's the purpose the purpose is I want to become the absolute best gamer I have the potential to become I may not be the best gamer in the world but I want to be the best at my potential offers right very different purpose now how do I do that by playing the game by engaging every time by not complaining when the game is is complex when when when you know I'm I'm I'm a very very serious player in

a game called Halo right and Halo uh uh you know is is an infinite game it's basically the only thing I can do is to perfect every shot to the point where I am so good at it that I'm one of the top two in every million players right that that's the game that's the purpose and when I reach that then every Mission every objective that others will call a purpose becomes easy for me right if I if I learn if if my life's purpose is to build a startup that can solve a small problem

for Humanity and make me a lot of money that's a very limited purpose if I make my life spur my life's purpose to be the best in the world at building startups that can affect Humanity right if then I've had I have a purpose because then every opportunity that comes for me to affect Humanity I have the skills and knowledge and abilities and contacts and resources to make that happen if I make an and that's a very interesting approach so I wrote my first book and then I waited two and a half years before I

could actually start writing another one right I in those two and a half years I was writing writing writing writing constantly and discarding what I'm writing why because I was collecting my 10 000 hours right and then since that moment when I reached around seven thousand hours of writing one book out the rest is crap I I was so good at it that I can literally challenge myself to write a book by the end of the month right so if I feel motivated to discuss the topics that that is so important to me I have

now become the best at the game that I'm playing not the best but one one good skilled person at the game that I'm playing one of the better ones at writick right and and I don't say in any way that I am a better writer than anyone else I'm better at writing the way I like to write than I used to be five seven eight years ago right that's the purpose of life the purpose of life is to become the best you can be at something that you want to be and that makes life better

for others if you Define life's purpose this way it becomes so easy because you know what the one thing that a writer can do to achieve that purpose is to write even if what you write is discarded the purpose is not the book that I'm writing the purpose is to write that way of looking at life is very different than the Western way and I think that way of looking at life I want to become the best at whatever it is that I can do that is the right way to live with purpose that is

so powerful it really makes me think I was actually got emotional at one point when you were talking about ali and my little boy seven and we love to play we play laser strike so we go into a room and there's adults and kids and we have guns and there's lasers and I love it I really love it but I've mastered it more in terms of I know where to get to and I position myself for the 15-minute game and all the kids and adults are running around and I'm in a powerful position and I

get the highest points and I feel like I've won but my seven-year-old goes dad let's run around and find people and go where all the people are and I think no no no we'll lose if we do that we'll get shot and we'll not get the most points yeah you know what you will lose this game but you wouldn't you may not lose the next one and the next one and if someone else occupies that position that you take you'll still win the game yeah you understand you you know you're you're you're comfortable in your

comfort comfort zone of like I've built that little thing I know how to do this but you're not investing in you your life's purpose is you your only product at the end of your life is how far you've come yeah that's powerful and it makes me think tomorrow when I take them to laser strike which we plan to do I'm going to get out and get around and have fun with them and run around and get shot up yeah and be shocked so what that's a beautiful way you honestly put that in a way I've

never heard before and I've asked every single guest that same question Mo and that's just incredible so thank you for for taking me outside of my own thought process thank you so much for having me this was a wonderful conversation I hope you at least for me I felt I felt it was really connected and deep and we got some very interesting points oh it was phenomenal absolutely mind-blowing from my perspective to experience what you shared today and I know the listeners are gonna love it I'm going to make sure for The Listener or the

viewer that's watching right now we'll put links to your website your Instagram that your books particularly uh your most recent book scary smart um is there anything else you would like anybody to do in terms of my podcast my podcast is actually my biggest contribution to the mission Believe It or Not So Slow Mo is a is a very weird thing because I don't know how I choose my guests it's quite interesting and I I really avoid celebrity celebrity mostly but it's just a beautiful way of taking an hour away from our busy life and

just pondering the life of another search I mean I get so many wonderful messages from people saying oh I share that with your guests this week and it's just I own I open it for me I love it so much so yeah please send people to that as well 100 I will and mo thank you so much I really appreciate you I really loved it James thank you for having it was wonderful hey guys if you enjoyed the content today please smash that subscribe button below and if you want to become part of my community

I've got an amazing free Facebook group please come and join us the link is in the description below and also if you've got any questions about today's session I'd love to know just comment below and I'll be sure to get back from you guys have the most amazing day foreign