Cliffe Knechtle Proves The Existence Of God To Logan Paul - IMPAULSIVE EP. 417

you and I will go to heaven because we choose to live our lives together with God sure about me bro comments are going crazy right now 3 days after he dies he physically bodily rises from the dead and over a period of 40 days he appears to over 500 people how do you know that are you trct to to men no why not cuz that's the way I'm hardwired what if someone is hardwired the exact opposite way by their God and then not accepted by their God because God's book says we don't accept you he's

a human being created in the image of God he has just as much value as I do but he's messed up but comparing yourself to him is like comparing apples to I understand you're an expecting father little baby coming into the world your mom was bragging to me about it baby girl sounds good let's say somebody that little baby God damn it Cliff dude Mike when's the last time we shot a podcast it's been a while you know what I was just thinking if Cliff had whatever product he promoted out right now it would just

be the Bible and it would just be next to the Prime in the do you want would you like to move these and replace them all with Bibles no we can or we coulder do you have one I didn't bring my Bible what do what do you have though you came with a bunch of a bunch of papers what do you mean what do you mean those those go everywhere these go everywhere with me back pocket hold on a second you that's like you have pages of notes that's you better believe it can I would

you mind can I see one of them absolutely you can see them all is it are they handwritten handwritten Che that hand out man when you see something to a when you see something handwritten does it make you feel like it you're reading something that's more official and like legit or or you spent time doing this you this needs to be turned into a font really yeah Cliff font can I show what your handwriting looks like sure it's wonderful Comic Sans whoa more who whoa whoa whoa that a good font no it's not that it's

just the probably with the f word on this particular podcast should I not be swearing what whatever you feel man do you two swear I better not yeah right I'm going to do my best not to today would you are these the these are the cliff notes I know I used I know I use the joke pre-show they gave me a courtesy laugh all right Cliff I'm just I'm reading just a little bit I opened up to a random page this particular stuff is a little like science rooted like you okay so all right I'm

going to get started forgive me steuart as well um Cliff nect Le connect Le no that's awesome connect Cliff connect Le his son Stuart connect Le thank you guys for joining us on impulsive uh uh we like to start with a little energy um Theology and uh Christian experts pastor Pastor um I've had such an interesting relationship with Christianity religion in itself I'm so curious about it as well and I'm honored to have you on the podcast because you are so well-versed in the subject and I think anytime I get to sit down with a

master of any sort of art or discipline it is an honor so I'm going to be picking your brain today I have a whole PDF full of notes because I think there's a lot of Rich subject matter we can talk about um but yeah thanks for joining us guys thanks for coming back to this episode of impulse if you're not subscribed hit the Subscribe button I'm going to wear these if that's cool you you all don't have to I assume you don't wear headphones when you preach some correct some people some people do that is

Cliff do you do you understand the uh paradox uh of which you're coming into today do you understand his current uh perceived relationship with with Christ and with God and Christianity do do either I'm looking forward to hearing it I heard a little bit of the acon one so got a little bit in there oh that's all you got okay that's why that was the Aon okay that was actually a good episode to listen to amazing episode so so yeah I'm I'm sure I'm sure it'll be oh thank you sir brought on in the comments

immediately you're gonna say no no I mean look I don't I don't think it's abnormal to have like a fluid relationship with with God or spirituality or religion in general and like I think I'm one of those people I fall into that category where like at the moment I'm unwilling to like subscribe to any particular religion but I am spiritual I believe in a God I believe in a higher power I pray I say Amen but I'm not really sure like how I land where I land my mom is Christian I was raised Christian and

then I think I I grew out of it and uh just became a little bit more curious about the world but just just I want to I want to uh qualify you just for the audience um who doesn't know you if you don't mind um what denomination are you subscribed to and then how did you arrive there we Pastor an inter denominational church I'm convinced the issue is not are you a Catholic or Protestant rather the issue is how have you responded to Jesus Christ and I think a lot of Catholics don't know Christ they've

never really personally connected with him by putting their faith in him but I think a lot of Catholics have put their faith in Christ same with Protestants a lot of Protestants don't know Christ they're just into a dead ritual called protestantism in America but there are a lot of Protestants that obviously have a genuine faith in Christ so we're more concerned about how have you responded to Jesus Christ not how have you responded to organized religion does it lean this inter denominational uh position that you guys have does it lean toward WS any one directionality

or or is it like dead well we're both fathers so we obviously are not Catholic priests we are not celibate we have children for sure and I have grandchildren and he has three daughters who I love and congrats so it's an incredible experience so we're not Catholic but I have a great deal of respect for the Catholic church when it follows Christ similar to America America is great when America follows Christ America gets real ugly real fast when it does not follow Christ same with the church when the Church follows Jesus Christ it's a beautiful

thing and when it does not follow Christ and there are sadly too many examples of that it turns tragic and ugly real fast how does that not put stain at least on some parts of I guess just religion in general it does put a stain you're absolutely right Logan but now the challenge is look at our African-American followers of Christ they have grandparents and great-grandparents who's who were enslaved by white Christians unquote how hypocritical and yet our African-American brothers and sisters have not given white Christian racists the power to turn them off to the true

Christ who did not have a racist bone in his body I was goingon to ask you some questions about those uh not to use word paradox but paradoxical moments in religion um your your guys are both from Connecticut or live in Connecticut now I'm from Connecticut myself um was in Connecticut when uh when Sandy Hook happened mhm were you guys also there yep um and I was curious we're kind of going to be all over the place today it's hard probably to keep a completely linear path especially running off the three hours of sleep that

I had on this flight over here today but in a middle class economy seat and we'll and we'll get that I want to ask you some questions about hell I want to ask you some questions about hell later CU I believe I was there just a couple hours ago as I was getting battered by bags in the hallway um in those paradoxical moments uh uh like Sandy Hook uh or or the the um the the slave ownership that you talked about um what do you what do you think God is is trying to teach us

in moments like that and and H for for non-believers who ask like how are moments like that even possible in in a world where God exists great question Stuart you know you got to start with I have no idea any Pastor preacher spiritual leader who says oh here's the answer hey you should got to run from him as fast as possible so you got to start with I don't know secondly you got to start with it's a sin issue do you know what I mean that's got to be upfront if there's if Genesis chapter 3

talks about a great fall and great breakdown that cracked the door wide open for any type of entropy to occur thirdly I'd go with well if there is no God then there is no ultimate moral obligation there is no type of immaterial out there it's just all material like we're sitting on a couch right now and the immaterial information that we're speaking well that's a type of spirituality involved so what is the alternative is my question why is it so wrong if there is no God because everybody brings up this word evil with Sandy Hook

well that's a religious term if if you don't believe in God what is evil that term doesn't even make any sense you have to have God to have evil because it ushers in moral obligation this is really right this is really wrong next I would say that we have a suffering servant you know I think you're a Christian right yes sir I mean we worship the only God who claims to suffer with us and historically suffered himself in the worst way imaginal physically and spiritually on that cross and then lastly you know what are you

going to turn to we're at the beds of those who are suffering all the time we just had a funeral last night we performed and if you're an atheist and you go in there it's just like tough luck you know life ends just just accept it naturalize it it's totally normal that's scary versus look there's eternity out there and we all want that now the question is is there evidence for it perhaps there is have you been ever challenged because I know you guys go on college campuses a lot um and just open invite to

just talk about the Bible have you ever been challenged with some sort of scientific explanation about what happens after you die I have a theory but I'd like that [Laughter] answer I'm big on ndes I think you're a little slower on your death experiences what what are ndes something you sign so that you can't talk about your experience yeah yeah basically it's so the near-death experience is it's you basically pass into unconsciousness you're flatlined yep but Duke has done this comprehensive study which is crazy like again I was no I thought IND were just ridiculous

early on but now there's like 300 peer-reviewed articles where someone has left their body yep they Flatline and they've actually gone down the hall and read a medical chart then they revive and explain exactly what that chart says and this is a Duke this is not like you know some near-death experience poke exactly documented near-death experiences that are fascinating where people often describe a similar experience what is the when you say similar what is the commonality between the multitudes of those ndes ndes that that have happened I I think the commonality is leaving your body

a floating experience that's typically what they say right that's often Pleasant extremely Pleasant this just sounds just sounds like acid right it does CMT I had very unpleasant AIT and then there's some type of a common agreement over what was what was seen if it was if two people were in the room yeah so it sounds like you've heard more as well uh uh I I just watched the uh what is it like a un unexplained William Shatner near-death experiences on Netflix but but no it's fascinating and I believe there's also a study that was

conducted um where there was like an observable amount of energy that leaves the body after someone passes away uh is that the soul potentially right because it energy can neither be created or destroyed there's a finite amount in the universe a traceable I mean that's at least what the science I've been told says right um but I have a question about the soul as well because um I'm so confused what that means people say oh you have no soul or like it's in your soul or you know say it with your soul what does that

mean to you guys well the soul is the person the soul is the real you the real me at at at at the point in which they are presently mm you have a soul I believe I have a soul we all have souls which means we have personhood which means you're not just a complex biochemical reaction I mean think about it if there is no God you and I are simply robots flesh puppets exactly that's all we are yeah and it's really fascinating to listen to an atheist a secularist a materialist insist oh no no

no no there's more to us than that really sorry if there is no Creator who creates us then we are matter and energy evolved to a higher order that's good hard science which means there's no soul there's no you there's no me there's a complex chemical reaction in our brains that we call ourselves but that's an illusion because the real you is simply a chemical reaction now my experience of Life says that's baloney my experience of Life says there is a real you that's why I hold you responsible for the way you treat your mother

your friend because I don't think you have to do what you do because you've been chemically programmed instead you're a human being created in the image of God with a soul which means a free will the ability to love or to hate the ability to forgive or seek revenge you have a rational mind you don't have to think a certain way you don't have to believe something you choose to well the only reason way that can be real is if there is more to you than your complex chemical reactions there's got to be a soul

a you a me but a me and a you is partially made up of our Human Experience exactly so how much does a human experience play into what your soul becomes you bet all right so if my dad had been an alcoholic and you ask me Cliff why are you an alcoholic and I say well cuz my dad was an alcoholic and then I've got five younger siblings none of whom are alcoholics and you ask them well why are you not alcoholics and they say because my dad was an alcoholic see what we're getting at

is yes we're all influenced by the environment we grew up in no question about it but then we choose what we're going to do with that environment and I can choose to use my dad being an alcoholic to justify me being an alcoholic or I can say you know something I'm never going to touch a drop of alcohol because my dad was an alcoholic and I saw how destructive it was in his life so we're still free although we're influenced by our environment but we're free free I don't have to love you I can hate

your guts I don't have to forgive you I can seek revenge I don't have to do either based on what you guys believe is the essence of the soul the deciding factor upon whether a person goes to heaven or hell or or or or or or what is what what is the decision you and I will go to heaven because we choose to live our lives together with God sh about me bro comments are going crazy right now Jesus promises you Logan he etal life if you put your faith in him okay and his resurrection

from the dead points to him being reliable he's not a quack I mean if Jesus had said I'm going to die and then rise from the dead and if he wouldn't have pulled it off I would not believe in it but the fact that he died and then rose from the dead historically is solid evidence that he indeed is reliable if you die and rise from the dead I promise to listen very carefully to everything you have to say Jesus died rose from the dead that's why it's a no-brainer you've got to take him seriously

dude I've been on the road for ages my face my body I'm a mess I need to clean things up well manscapes today's sponsor Mikey you're in luck guys Father's Day is coming up if you haven't have a gift yet we got one for you today's episode is brought to you by manscape the leaders and below the wayist grooming maybe your pops his head of bush since the 70s and that's okay our friends at manscape have crafted the total package for a special day whether it's for the boys downstairs his beard or even the best

pair of underwear out there manscaped has his bases covered head over to manscape.com get 20% off plus free shipping with the code Logan from Daddy to zaddy trust manscape my dad Greg for example he been rocking the beer look for years handsome guy Vin Diesel looking mother Freer no swearing the beard trimmer that your dad's been using since you were in grade school yeah it probably needs upgrading introducing the beard hedger Pro kit the complete beard maintenance kit for all the beard Kings it's all the one kit comes with a beard hedger manscapes most advanced

beard trimmer as well as shampoo conditioner oil balm and balm for his beard it also comes with a brush comb and scissors so he can style his beard mustache like the true gentleman he is and the shears 3.0 is a five piece Precision men's nail grooming kit that any father needs to stay on top of his self-care with professional grades stainless steel tools sized and shaped and styled for the task at hand 20% off plus free shipping with the code Logan manscape.com that's 20% off free shipping with the Cod manscape.com code Logan never forget where

you came from if you know what I mean Happy Father's Day from manscape Beyond that prequisite of acceptance of Christ into your to your heart and a continued path of of following Christ as a as a way to uh gain access to the kingdom of heaven um are there any other prerequisites beyond that or on the flip side what are some ways to get your ticket cancelled uh I want to talk a little bit about Mortal sins today and and and how forgiveness applies to those and especially uh if you guys have any mortal sins

that aren't listed for me uh there was a guy on the plane today that was watching uh YouTube videos with no headphones on full volume of course uh at 6 in the morning and he was just he he thought it was okay to watch music videos Latino music videos at 6 in the morning in full volume I in my eyes you go directly to hell like there's no coming back from that I walked over I said armano this is not okay they're giving out free headphones why are you doing this to me I feel like

you're directing this directly at me so what are what are the Mortal sins that that uh um you know people have to avoid or or I mean we know some of them assuming murder and I I learned about some of this but refresher yeah can can you can you list them out and by the way that mortal sin means if you commit this you're you're doomed you're not there's no chance or is that or is that what it means yeah when Jesus was dying on the cross two thieves were hung on either side of him

yeah they were criminals they were guilty the first Thief turns to Jesus and says come on Miracle boy get us off these crosses and then based on that we'll believe in you second criminal turns to First criminal and says you fool we bleed and die here cuz we deserve it but this Jesus he's the innocent holy pure Son of God and the second criminal turns to Jesus and says remember me when you come into your kingdom now right there Jesus value system is on the line he could look the guy in the face and said

get down off of here to say 12 hell Maries work in a soup kitchen and if you do a good enough job maybe you'll make it he didn't say that instead he said I tell you the truth today you'll be with me in paradise and that's Grace that's amazing grace God's undeserved offer of forgiveness his generosity now when you read the gospels and I would encourage you guys to read them Matthew Mark Luke and John because they're the eyewitness testimonies about Jesus what you'll notice is Jesus reserved his most scathing words for religious Hypocrites and

the reason is because hypocrisy is pretending to be someone I am not if I say that I believe in Jesus and talk with you about God and then walk out of here and seek to womanize you'd Point your bony finger in my face and say Cliff you're one flaming hypocrite and you'd be right so Jesus points out that I'm not going to heaven because I live a good life I'm going to heaven because of his grace his offer of forgiveness but if my faith in him is genuine it will be shown in the way I

love him honor him and Obey him but wouldn't that put a lot of uh I guess in this the way you're describing so-called Christians or Christians at risk uh because we are all imperfect Christians so at the end of the day do we all in some way become those uh religious Hypocrites that you're describing so you and I are playing ball together you block my shot when you land I elbow you I say man I'm really sorry would you please forgive me you say yes Cliff thank I forgive you secondly you block my son shot

a second time you come down I boom I elbow you all right now either I'm a hypocrite or I've got a bad habit with my temper a Christian is someone who has bad habits and I got a bunch of them I've had to pray for forgiveness for my pride for my greed every day almost basically it doesn't mean I'm a hypocrite means I got some bad habits a hypocrite is someone who's playing a game stupid game if I say to you I'm sorry for elbowing you but I can hardly wait to do it again you

don't have to have a PhD in Psychology to figure out this is one hypocritical dude got it it in sounds like intent sounds like intent matters well put the heart exactly intent motive exact because I've seen basically what you just described with Christians like or or anyone just pretending to be someone they're not like it that that happens but I don't know how often it happens where you find someone who's doing it intentionally like I know I know people who I I just think that's just like how they are they might have a bad temper

they might snap they might be willing to forgive the next second um but I mean there's there's there's people um even just right now parading around on social media um being like Bad actors just not just not good humans deceitful lying um and then and then they're using um Jesus or or or their their beliefs as a crutch to fall back on and and and they go from bad to good instantaneously and and people buy it yep where where does that person sit in in your mind I could just I would never judge that person

because I have no idea where their heart is fa fair I see their hypocritical living and yet again I don't know if they're going to repent later or not like the thief on the cross easily so so so is that a bit of like a cop out to be honest with you I I I wonder if I wonder if someone can just live a whole life being bad or or or acting morally and then at the last second they're on the deathbed and they're like I accept you Jesus and then it that's a pass for

them isn't that the freakish thing though about Grace you know I think we all want forgiveness even for our enemies and it's only Christianity that says forgive your enemies historically it's been the only faith that says that and so you know when Christ says forgive your enemy 70 time 7 like I screw up all the time I want that like that's super attractive to me not the Hinduism approach where I'm going to come back as a cockroach if I do X Y and Z wrong so I think that is is what is so important in

understanding Christianity I think there's two ways where we can really use God one is you just turn away from him and say you know Screw you God I'm out of here the other way is I'm going to use you by being a perfect person because then I get you in my debt do that makes sense I'm a perfect person so you owe me God God of the universe who created everything you owe me so that's why I think it's it's bad to to try and live this perfect life and say all right God give me

that ticket I'm saying I'm saying someone who doesn't live the perfect life I'm saying someone who leads a life of of Deceit lies is there is there an example of the person that you're discussing specifically cuz it it almost feels like you're talking about a certain person no no no no there was when I was talking about someone frating around on social media but like to me that like dude I don't know if there's like a worst type of person who's using uh God as like a shield to uh put Merit to their bad actions

that's horrible um does that turn you off though to the real God me personally no no no because a lot of people that happens like thousands actually you know what if I'm if I'm being not like turn off isn't the right word it just makes me doubt and I don't think that's like theual doubt the person or doubt God it it makes me it just I don't know I don't I mean definitely doubt the person not doubt God because again I believe in God that belief's not going away it's just like okay this is a

bad human being who is using Jesus as a protector to convince other people who believe in Jesus that he's a good human being that's horrible MH and and by the way who who am I to say this is a bad human being well that's what I was to say at a base level like is do do you guys believe that there are bad and good human beings I think it's real clear that we all do good at times and we all do bad at times one of my favorite 60-minute shows was when Mike Wallace years

ago interviewed yahil denur Survivor of Survivor of the Holocaust and he showed yil denur during their interview a small clip of Y healon entering the courtroom where Adolf ikan the guy who slaughtered millions of Jews in daa and oshit and vuk involved and yil danur walks down the aisle in the courtroom with Adolf ikeman sitting behind the glass in the front he walks up to Idol Adolf ikan looks him in the face and collapses weeping and Mike Wallace looks at y heal dor and says what were you feeling were we just overcome with the evil

of this guy y healor said no when I looked into the face of Adolf ikan I realized I was looking into the face of the typical human being there's a bit of Adolf ikan in all of us okay that's what Jesus pointed out Jesus pointed out we all do good at times we're all created in the image of God we all have conscience so every single human being does good at times and we all do evil at times that is why every single one of us needs Jesus Christ his forgiveness his grace his strength to

change wow look the power of forgiveness is UND undeniably incredible it's also undeniably hard yep you know what I'm saying that's that's an impossible thing to do sometimes or so it feels at least um have you mastered forgiveness are you still working on it I am still working on it I have discovered that when someone hurts me badly enough I cannot just forgive them once because tomorrow the memory will come back and I can't believe what they did to me and I'm going to have to forgive them a second time and then next week it's

going to come back again and the week after that so the people who've really hurt me the most in life I've had to forgive over one 100 times who are these people who wants to hurt con why would you ever want to hurt this man if you're watching this you've done harm to Cliff or his son you're I don't forgive you I'm still mad to to be honest with you I'm mad I don't even know who you are what you did but I'm mad what are some what are some examples like without being getting too

personal of that the type of forgiveness you've had to offer and how did you get there I guess one of the first examples is when I went to college I wanted to play major college basketball so I went to uh a college that was D1 and uh I barely made the team I was the worst player on the team in fact when the team went out to play UCLA the coach came up to me in the locker room before and said Cliff I'm really sorry there's not a seat on the plane for you so they

left me behind so that gives you an idea where I was oh that's horrible but there was there was a guy who would stand on the sidel and he would mock me every time I would make a mistake and I to tell you the truth I tried to love the guy I really hated his guts and I tried to love him I tried to forgive him but I failed miserably and it was not till I got to the point in my life where I said Jesus I can't love this guy I hate him I need

you to give me the strength to change because I can't stand this guy he's standing between me and what I want to do most in life at that time play major college basketball and Christ did it he gave me the strength to love a guy who In My Own Strength uh-uh no way was I going to love that dude you know interesting as well I think hatred and just like resentment in general anger is like a it's heavy it's a heavy feeling to hold in your heart so I I always try to apply like a

bit of logic maybe to what I do in my actions and carrying that around I don't think serves me in a positive way and so in the hardest moments in my life where I've had to forgive people or or move on um besides the fact that I I I actually look to Jesus as an example then because um just I think he's just a poster of poster child of morality and like you know he he he did it one of the hardest moments of my life I I was literally like what would Jesus do here

and and and it served me very well um but besides that it just I don't know if I want to always be moving through life with that anger in my heart and that's not always easy for me Cliff like my dad's a fireball he likes to Cor people who wrong him I'm I'm a fighter at heart and sometimes I can be vengeful sometimes I can want revenge more more so than that even I want Justice you know I I I okay Batman no no but seriously if I could I would be a vigilante I swear

to God I'd put on a caper run around New York City and like just like beat up bad guys but I can't cuz it's illegal but I can hold people accountable to the best of my ability and it's something I try to do not only for other people um who who wrong me but also for myself um I I made a huge mistake in 2017 I'm sure you guys know about it it evolved it was it was in Japan and like I had to take a serious look at myself in the mirror and decide who

I wanted to be and how I became this person who did that thing and the amount of accountability that I took for that and the teachings that that led me and brought me me through um now I carry every day and I think accountability is like a super powerful tool and I think you know religion specifically Jesus can can help with that um I I want to I want to touch on the soul thing really quick because this this has always intrigued me um okay so the soul is the person that that can be shaped

by Human Experience so like if you have if you were to like run a simulation of like Cliff a 100 simulations of the life of cliff in some future distant world do you become a pastor in all hundred of those simulations is every one of those simulations is Cliff a good guy especially if the human experience that each Cliff experience or goes through is different um and then does your soul become a different thing and then also I I I ask myself like okay what is the soul cuz you're saying it's shaped by human experience

but like what about like a a baby or or or like a child like say a child passes away and they're like you know essentially a blank c what what happens to that Soul what if that that human hasn't accepted Jesus cuz he's four well that's why they baptize babies right well I'm convinced though that babies who die are going to be in heaven yeah because of the way Jesus treated children he said let the little children come to me for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven so God is a compassionate God and obviously

child has not baby has not sinned they've not rebelled against God so I think they're going to be in heaven but I think you rais a great question when it comes to Cliff if if there were hundred different scenarios over the next thousand years of you would you always become a minister I don't think so because that smacks of determinism it's in the Stars it's written in the stars you have to do this you have to go down this path no no when I fall down a set of stairs I don't pick myself up at

the bottom and say phw glad that's over no I pick myself up at the bottom and say idiot pick up your feet don't stumble down the stairs it's really painful in other words it's not been predetermined that's this whole issue of free will that's why I hold you responsible and you hold me responsible for what I do for what I say because you know I don't have to do it it's not a script exactly it's not a script this whole idea that God writes on a piece of paper which you and I are going to

do tomorrow locks in in a bank vault and then you and I have to do what's written on the paper that's determinism that's fatalism no no no no no we're human beings created in the image of God which means god partially limits his power by giving us a free will and then we choose what we do but God does Hold Us responsible and that's why I love what you pointed out about the importance of responsibility but you know Logan you you and Jesus are I think a little closer than you would might realize when you

talk about Justice G to get clipped up man okay that was Justice that's going everywhere the reason is the reason is why did Christ die on a cross he didn't die on a cross because God is lovey-dovey he died on a cross because God is just and because God is just the penalty for evil is death and hell and Christ went to the Cross paid that penalty why cuz God's love lovey-dovey no because God is just the penalty for human evil must be paid oh that's not cool that's not cool oh that's very cool I

understand you're an expectant father little baby coming into the world baby your mom was bragging to me about it little baby girl sounds good y all right Logan now let's talk theoretically okay let's say somebody murders that little baby God damn it clip didn't even get a chance to do anything make one video good response horrific I wasn't expecting this that's the hook sorry Grandma you're sorry ma she didn't make it damn dude okay I love your response why because you know very well that if the police or the judge lets that dud off scott

free your baby does not matter now what's fascinating is the way so many secular people will say well God's just love so there's going to be no judgment really so God doesn't judge the guy who murders my child that's a clear statement on God's part your child Cliff does not matter to me therefore I will not judge the guy who murdered your kid well let's get one thing straight God doesn't care about your kid your kid does not matter to God and that's a lie Jesus said no God does care about every single one of

us which is why when we hurt each other when we rap each other when we cut each other off at the knees God will judge us for that because he loves us because we matter to him does that make any sense it totally makes sense but again it just sounds like like intent really matters it sounds like and but I've also had people tell me in like the mistakes that I've made like sometimes intent doesn't matter at Le at least in this human world sometimes your intent doesn't matter what's that saying the pathway to hell

with the best intentions yeah um so so it sounds like God is like a when I say God is that's Jesus as well Jesus got Holy Spirit and the hly spirit Y and the Holy Spirit and father okay okay because what just for the listeners like when I say God to them you know it might be different God we got to talk about that too continue um it sounds like he's like he is the measure of whether or not someone is morally sound and he is constantly all knowing and calculating about someone's intent just like

you can't hide from God essentially like if I know if I know like if I know like I'm in the basketball game like you mentioned earlier and uh Mike goes up for a layup and I or he blocks my shot and he comes down maybe I don't give him that elbow maybe I stick my foot out later later in the game you know I know it was intentful but that's how my spleen was ruptured when I was 16 so I'm going to that so what was the person's name uh I believe it was TJ unfortunately

so TJ God knows that TJ Tri Mike on purpose and Mike had to get his spleen replaced and that's why he ended up doing heroin is TJ being judged by God in that moment and can he hide his intentions from God God Is Watching God is watching us always oh man that's a really bummer idea oh no no no no no God Is Watching has been one of the most powerful civilizing influences in the world because when you live your life understanding God is watching me then you got to ask yourself should I really do

this or should I not I begin to reconsider I begin to ask myself the difficult ethical question is this the wisest best thing to do in this circumstance or is it not I ask that question constantly I and to a point of uh Obsession and I get very I get very scared when I uh even nowadays I've had a a bit of a change on my thoughts on pornography and masturbation I want to talk about some of that stuff um because I do feel that presence I really do and and and constantly ask for forgiveness

uh both in the morning at and at night when I pray but the way that you uh described some of the uh the sins that we were just talking about now um we were talking about murder and and some of those things it sounds like the most judged things by gods are human onh human sin um is that too broad of a statement or would it be acceptable to assume that God is mostly not mostly but but severe in in punishment on what we do and how we treat each other specifically well if you don't

have Justice you can't have love and if you don't forgive somebody from your heart you can't have a true type of Justice I don't believe so at least because if you're going to reconcile for example with somebody who you really hate back to this topic you have to forgive them in your heart and then you can seek Justice and then reconcile you can't just seek Justice for what they did to you and then say ah whatever we're right reconciled no you have to have that level of forgiveness first and if that doesn't occur then there's

no ultimate reconciliation and I think this is kind of off your your good point but I just want to touch on I think in our culture today it's becoming more and more individualistic where it's all about me it's not about community and so when it's all about me and my own personal Ambitions and dreams and where I can get you know we see the breakdown if that's true in a marriage like really high percentage chance that that is going to end in divorce because it's about my dreams and if you get in the way of

my happiness where done but you see it in society and so when that occurs forgiveness is like impossible because to your point it's you're going to you're going to be constantly Waring against different people who bump up against you and if you if we can't get to the point of saying no it's about Community it's not it's about self-denial like Christ talked about not about self assertion then we're going to never forgive like if it's about me my dreams and I you can't forgive so that's why we see forgiveness which I love that you put

such a heavy emphas is on forgiveness it it's becoming completely obsolete in our culture today because it's individualism completely completely but by the way it's like man I feel like at least cancel culture X dude yo everyone is the judge Duran executioner yeah who who who why why and how did this happen where everyone thinks that they have the ability to presume someone good or bad and then be vocal about it online right it's just a it's just a it's a weird culture man yeah forgiveness is becoming harder and harder admittedly even like for me

you know right it's the world is headed in an interesting Direction which is why I actually love religion for this because in a world where like it's just so hard to understand yourself and be guided by I don't know your friends your parents things you see online your environment in general um this code this Bible or any Scripture from any religion usually is a good Testament as to how someone could live a and lead a good healthy positive beneficial life do you see religion as something totally different like is this historically true did Jesus Christ

actually die on a cross was he actually risen you two of you know you too you look at Bono for example he says 35% of the world is Christian well if Jesus Christ claimed to be God I work with schizophrenics often times they claim to be Jesus Christ and God and so then he was a schizophrenic well you you know Bono would say you truly believe that a schizophrenic could turn 35% of the World Christian change that that percentage I mean maybe but the likeliness is very small and so you have to come through Christ

and believe that he is actually the Son of God then you get to okay how am I going to grow in the fruits of the spirit of love joy peace patience kindness goodness faithfulness gentleness self-control but it has to come through first believing like true Faith he's a Son of God or he's not and so just drop this whole thing I appreciate your practicality and by the way the resemblance that you two have is uncanny it's it's incredible and and and 30 you become your dad yo please don't tell me that sorry Greg so long

my hair um and and actually the F the first thing you said to me the first uh response to his question was um you know you said I don't know and I think a lot of hard questions I think there's a lot of maturity and nobility in a human being able to say you know what I don't know but that's a strange thing about this scenario and I've heard you speak about this in the past no one is ever going to be able to bring to you this bulletproof bull bulletproof proof that that God exists

or that Jesus exists right which to answer your question and when I say when convince me to come Christian uh is it synonymous with like saying convince me to become a republican I think I guess what I am looking for what I have always struggled with is like the proof per se like I haven't really had like a come to Jesus moment that I know some people people have had I haven't had and have abided by the guidance of the Bible to lead me to like a happy successful place in my life I just try

to be a good person I try to work hard and I try to love the people around me as much as I can and by the way I up a lot but I I guess like I started by saying I'm just like unwilling to subscribe to a religion because then I guess this leads into this conversation why Christianity there's so many denominations out there and to be able to like put your foot down on one especially when they all have such positive teachings for the most part it's just so hard for me I I I

just don't know if I'm willing to make that assertion just yet so why Christianity is the question all right first of all you're right I can't prove God but Logan I think you've got God bearing down heart on you through your mom I think it's real clear that your mom loves you is that true ma she she holding AC cross can you at least get a thumbs up or something she just hold up holds up the cross can't me can't discuss the love of Logan here's a I do love Jesus I don't think that your

mom's love for you is simply a chemical reaction I think your mom has made a decision over your entire life to care for you to provide for you to protect you to sacrifice for you that is far beyond an animal Instinct that is a free decision your precious mother has made to really love you to really care for you love the experience of Love points us to reality including some type of God okay then the next question is yeah but who is this God and that's where Jesus Christ Muhammad confucious Buddhist at are all the

avatars of Hinduism come in all claiming to be revealing God accurately but the historical evidence is Jesus lived a sinless life he never sinned once in John chapter 8 he could look into the faces of his enemies and say which one of you can prove me guilty of sin and his enemies were silent secondly he taught amazing ethical teachings that I think all of us respect highly The Sermon on the Mount is obviously ethical genius all right profound ethical genius The Sermon on the Mount Matthew chapters 5 6 and 7 so his lifestyle his ethical

teachings demand respect thirdly you watch him die at the moment of his most excruciating pain and Agony nailed to Cross Beam instead of cursing his enemies the way I would have he prays father forgive them for they know not what they do well my respect for him skyrockets but fourthly and most importantly three days after he dies he physically bodily rises from the dead and over a period of 40 days he appears to over 500 people who see him different times different places risen from the dead Paul records in 1 Corinthians 15 I have a

question how do you know that you know that in the same way that you know that George Washington was the first president of the United States that you know that Adolf Hitler really committed the atrocities he did it's called historical knowledge but those recent events you or those events you just cited happen much more recently and are much more well documented than potentially 2,000 years of lost history Bingo correct but the great news is in the gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John we have a very very reliable historical record based over 5,800 Greek manuscripts

10,000 manuscripts in the Latin Vulgate and about 9,800 in ethiopic Coptic Armenian Syriac Gothic and Slavic basically like they were they were almost approved and and and given credibility to in the short term thereafter and and and and that that became made it even that added more extensive proof to the to the story back essentially they likeor yeah that's that's kind of I I want to ask a quick question about that and you brought up or you brought up George Washington and and and the atrocities of of World War II um we live in a

in a place or a time in place right now specifically in this moment where the things that happened yesterday aren't even believed to necessarily be true they're questioned we live in a very strange place where there's been this infection of question everything to no end and and and maybe it's an infection and maybe you'll say otherwise like I I've seen you even do this exercise before like uh on on George jenko's uh show are we even sitting here right now you know like and you didn't ask it in in in saying like we're not but

like right how how far can this go right you bet and so do you feel like that modern day questioning that to be honest with you is is some of a it seems like an ego boost almost for the person questioning whatever they're questioning like look I can question this I must be so woke and and amazing right and such a free thinker do you think that's increasing the scrutiny on uh Rel on religious beliefs yeah we just had this big debate at Mississippi State in a lecture hall that went kind of crazy in there

and this guy stands up and tries to poke fun at Christianity saying you guys live in a culture of certainty we live in a culture of free thinking and uncertainty and you guys are bastardizing all different forms of knowledge by claiming this type of certainty what he doesn't get is Christianity is all about doubt like if any Christian comes up to you and says you got to have certainty or you're not you know you're not going to heaven you're going to burn in the Lake of Fire that's just a total joke like the man after

God's Own Heart David was questioning God all the time job when he was going through suffering questioning God all the time oh doubting Thomas Jesus said don't doubt obviously because doubting Thomas was scolded no doubting Thomas had all the disciples who claimed eyewitness testimony to the Resurrection coming to him telling him exactly what happened finally Jesus actually gives him the physical proof says touch the actual nail prints in my hands thrust your hand into the spear ruined in my side then stop doubting and believe So eventually he calls him out of his doubt but to

your good point I'm a doubt I've doubted more than my brothers all long and my three-year-old daughter the other day was like I don't believe in God like I can't see touch taste like you're three what is going on here it's so in the jeans I just hate it you just took a bite of Play-Doh exactly I don't even answer this and so I I love that about the Christian faith unlike other faiths which is yeah so but it sounds like this person that you were going back and forth with is talking about your certainty

and the belief of Jesus and that he existed that's what it sounds like and and and and I guess that's kind of was my question as well like how like how do you know is because the preservation of history is it excuse me freaking difficult uhuh extremely difficult by the way history is often written by The Victors right and I don't know I don't know who who the Victor is in this case but like we have lost thousands of years of History um to I don't know destruction fire torment collapse War rage rain mhm um

and so I it the further back we go it is harder for me to put my seal of belief on something if I don't have a certain amount of evidence like I'm one of those and I'm not like I'm just doubting I'm not saying yes or no I'm just asking questions um and and and eyewitness testimony seems to be like the the strongest actual receipt of these events that took place in in years zero by the way right this I want to talk about that pin that question but um yeah is it are you are

you you have a tremendous amount of faith in eyewitness testimony and the preservation of the records that that contributed towards this story of Jesus Christ cor as well as Muhammad if you tell me Muhammad never existed I'm going to look you in the face and say I'm sorry the historical evidence is Muhammad was born about 570 ad and died about 632 ad what Muhammad claimed to be a messenger of God prophet of God prophet of God do you not believe in that God Allah I assume when you read the Quran there are good reasons to

question the total reliability of Muhammad so therefore I don't trust him too much I have great respect for Muhammad in the way he taught give alms to the poor I think that's tremendous Mohammad had more respect for Jesus than the typical American does Muhammad believed that Jesus was born of a virgin that he ascended to Heaven he lived a sinless life he's coming back a second time wow but Muhammad did not subscribe to the deity of Christ that Christ is actually God in human form so I asked someone who was pretty religious uh who was

close to me I asked I asked uh this person I said um so what about people who don't believe in Jesus but are still extremely religious and they subscribe to Allah or uh the Buddhist or what whatever the the the deity is that they worship and believe in and even just based on what you guys have told me today if if if if if that person doesn't believe in Jesus Christ I said to this person are they going to hell are they are they doomed for the rest of Eternity the only reason people go to

hell is because they choose to live their life separate from God Jesus sorry Y in this Jes from God yep correct so if I choose to reject Christ and live my life separate from him I'm choosing to live my life separate from God and I will based on my decision will spend eternity separate from him so you believe that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ is is going to hell anybody who hears about Christ and has the opportunity to investigate Christ by reading the gospels and chooses to reject Christ Jesus clearly said for God so

loved the world he gave his one and only son that who ever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life for God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world but to save the world through him whoever believes in him is not condemned but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he's not believed in the name of God's one and only son that's what Jesus said it just isolates such a large portion of the population good good good point Jesus doesn't give his followers an option when it comes

to loving people if I'm a follower of Christ I don't have an option to hate I have to love I have to accept I have to be tolerant in fact if I'm going to follow a man who as he's bleeding and dying on a cross prays for his enemies father forgive them for they know not what they do that's the essence of tolerance so intolerance bigotry hatred is not an option for a genuine Fall of Christ but is it int an sort of rooted in Christianity a bit okay great question this is a matter of

truth if I say to you every religion leads to God is that a truth claim no I would argue yes what I'm saying is every religion leads to God which means I contradict the Muslims I contradict the Christians I contradict the Jews this is a truth claim okay I as a white Western male am saying every religion leads to God that's a truth claim if I say to you half the religions lead to God is that a truth claim sure it is I'm saying half a right half a wrong that's a truth claim when Jesus

says I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through me is that a truth claim yeah it sure is you see Logan we all make truth claims everybody does if you're Against Racism you're making a truth claim if you're against sexism you're making a truth claim if you're for Equal Housing Opportunity you're making a truth truth claim you better not be prejudiced against someone because of their ethnic Heritage when you rent out your apartment so everybody makes truth claims so the question is what is the evidence supporting

the truth claim that you buy into oh I'm agnostic Cliff I don't believe anything I'm sorry that's impossible because you have to make ethical decisions every day and the ethical decisions you make every day tattles what you really believe about reality I'm sorry you got to go to funerals gotu your loved ones are going to pass you don't believe it could be intuitive this feels wrong this feels right or socially programmed as we as we spoke about earlier okay good yes Society obviously impacts but don't you and I have the utmost respect for Dr Martin

Luther King for Abraham Lincoln for Gandhi who choose to follow their conscience instead of following the status quo don't we really respect people who say you know something there's a lot of social pressure on me to go this way but I'm not going to go this way because I have a rational mind I've got a conscience and I'm going to think through this issue and I'm going to do what I believe is best well we we we also appreciate those people now like given you know us the four of us you know white American men

in 1950 right or 1956 like who knows what are is it somebody's gonna kill me on this date for what for MLK are we close are we close at least 56 does that work yeah who knows what our our thoughts about his speakings would have been at at that given time which is which I'm bringing back and by the way obviously coming from a Christian this is just a a an exercise here of you know like what what say you to these people who believe that some of that ethic ethical Behavior moral Behavior Uh is

just a socially programmed belief set from their existence on this planet I think we've we've spoken about this a little bit today you bet well it depends how you view the human being if a human being is simply the sum total of the influences of their environment we're not free we've been programmed by our environment now I agree environment has a powerful influence I think that's obvious I'm dressed the way I am because I grew up in the United States so I've been influenced by my culture by my Society Connecticut to be honest with you

that's you trust me I would still be rocking both of these fits if I hadn't moved to LA I when I met Logan I was wearing that exact same outfit I swear but I don't think I have to follow my environment right and I think there are more than enough examples from all four of Our Lives that at times we've followed our environment and at times we've contradicted our environment but I I think you hit something different so you hit social you hit instinctual and I go by evolutionary theory you know I believe in evolution

Evolution micro wait what a lot of Christians don't yeah wait whoa well you're so morally you should be at the top of the food chain you're a fighter right you've got power you know the the powerful they eat the weak strong eat the weak his record is and so why isn't that so I don't know so why isn't you know might makes right from an evolutionary perspective why do we as a society don't just say you know why would you live for something like human right rights why would you disadvantage yourself for the poor no

from an evolutionary standpoint you should slaughter them or at least just let them die off why would you know if you have your your baby not not not back to your baby goad perspective go ahead Slaughter my unborn baby guys so bad news Logan un like the percentage was astronomical back in the Roman Empire of those who if you didn't like your baby you just th threw it on a trash Heap you know infanticide was all that fits with Evolution it totally does it does it does actually yeah and so why morally instinctually like you're

saying if we just were raised dread and tooth and Claw just live that way like Hitler lived that way makes sense to me so if there is no God I hate to say this like I don't mean to get dark real quick but if there is no God and there is no Christ I would try and be as consistent as possible with that World viiew Fair thatt makes sense I want to pin the evolution that surprises me that you believe in evolution um pin that uh what were we just oh oh I wanted to touch

on the intolerance part of just not not even just Christianity just organ organize religion in general this is a qualm I have this this is where I think if if again this is where you got heated I I have I Harbor resentment for certain parts of organized religion that make people either exclude others or lead to hatred and and um dispute rage Feud I I and and in this particular podcast actually I had a moment where I was like mocking religion and Jesus in general and by the way the next three months of my life

or hell like like literally I felt the wrath of God like instantly instantly um and I had just sit there and watch them I can't help and I'll never do it again and then by the end of it I had like my like it wasn't like a come to Jesus moment but he definitely gave me guidance in a time where I needed guidance anyways that was a verbal outpour of like a level of resentment that I felt for certain parts of particularly in that scenario Christianity that I just didn't agree agree with um man like

I I I'm just I'll be honest here I don't love the sort of like exclusive Club feeling oh you can get into heaven if you believe in Jesus but everyone else is doomed I don't I don't I don't love that right because there are people who who have the same amount of faith in their religion as you guys do in yours who are putting their time eff for energy investing their whole lives into believing in a deity and like according to you guys you know they won't end up in a place uh that is Paradise

even though they're leading a great life and have a great moral compass um even even just like even like you know the whole like gay marriage thing like like correct me if I'm wrong right but according to Christianity like gay marriage isn't allowed to be a thing and I I know there's a lot of circumstances of um like a a gay child being uh resented and even alienated from their family because they have super religious parents and I and I hear those stories and like I hurt I hurt for those people because a decision is

being made based on um a a set of beliefs that that people are so bound to but then they throw the love aside for someone in their family and and and and that that kind of bothers me sure but remember Logan the legitimacy of faith is not determined by Passion if you're passionate about thin ice on a lake I really believe this thin ice is going to hold me up that doesn't matter yeah you walk out on that thin ice you're going through sir y so the legitimacy of faith is determined by the trustworthiness of

the object of your faith if it's thick ice and you believe just a little and you step out on that ice it's going to hold you up you see remember I'm not going I'm not going to heaven because I'm passionate no I'm a dirty rotten sinner Christ died on a cross for me I have put my faith in him I doubt man I sin every day I am no perfect human specimen I'm a dirty rotten sinner that's who I am wait I Cliff you keep saying that but like you're you're I don't know you that

well right so in my head you're like painting a picture of someone that like I just don't believe you are is that you being humble or you are you like a really are you actually like a dirty rotten probably his s might be different comes down to how you define sin no I have never not even dat but I have lusted no I have never murdered anybody but I have hated no I have never brought a whip down on the back of a black slave not once but I as a white American have had subtle

racist attitudes no I don't live an incredibly opulent life but I have been greedy so I'm not this wonderful person that I wish everybody would believe that I am I am a sinner that is why I need Christ now remember it's not about my passion it's not about my sincerity that's the key issue when it comes to Faith it's about the reliability of the object of my faith and you know that if you trust a criminal he's going to rip you off if you trust a reliable person that's good now here's where that really gets

tricky let's be a skeptic right let's doubt okay let's start writing in here in this room I doubt you and I doubt you I doubt me too all right I think I doubt no there's nothing wrong with doub I doubt myself enough for all of us exactly okay but but but I can push that too far I can get to the point where I say in spite of the evidence that you two guys are reliable I'm not going to trust you I'm going to be a hypers skeptic skepticism is good but when it turns into

hypers skepticism watch out why is it so dangerous yeah why because I'll never have the privilege of being your friend if I'm always skeptical about you if I'm always doubting you I will miss my friendship with both you and you and him that's but that's an extreme you know you like hypers hypers skepticism I don't think I don't know if it's as Extreme as you think this is the person I was describing before this I'm so smart because I question everything the issue with these people is you provide absolute proof that their questioning is leading

them down the wrong path and they're still unwilling to accept that as a as a proof Point hypers skepticism sure but like more prevent just to question and doubt and and and not accept everything you see at face value as truth I don't think I don't think Jesus said you better do that oh he did he said Beware of false prophets they come to you in sheep's clothing inwardly they are ferocious wolves and they will eat your lunch okay let me tell you something about what you just said M and this is where a portion

of that resentment started to grow I had a person very close to me tell me that that mistake that I referenced earlier happened because I had a statue of Buddha in my backyard took me a and said I know why all this bad stuff has been happening to you and I know why Japan happened I said please tell me like what do you know and he looked at this statue Giant Buddha statue and he said what you just said he said something about it was something about punishing those who worship false prophets false Idols something

like that and in that moment I thought that was so so just bizarre and also kind of like distasteful to everyone who puts their life in the belief of Buddha and Buddhism it was like a a first like tip off to me like okay I don't know if I'm I'm willing to subscribe to like a religion that is alienating an entire belief system or even just like just because I have a statue in in my backyard and intuitively I felt like it was just so ridiculous like H how how how could I then subscribe to

this one religion right cuz that in itself is intolerance no there's no way that anybody knows that because you have a statue of boot in your backyard this horrible thing happened to you that's total presumptuous it's false it was wrong it got rid of it terrible kept happening like it just did we get rid of it tot we tried to give it to Russell Russ BR he said no he said no and then I think someone took it I mean you don't own it anymore and you still got get sucks that's ridiculous that he said

that sorry he said that to you no I I definitely thought I thought I was like uh what to it was on the ground yeah you had it all messed dude I don't know I'm not like Buddhist I just I thought it was cool by the way that was the I was I saw it at the store I was like this is look in my backyard and then I was like is this is why I'm being punished just cuz I I made a purchase about a garden statue nope um but but but it is but

but but even I you're saying it's presumptuous but it's it's what I mean you just cited the same thing he said no no no no When Jesus Says beware of false prophets he's talking about don't trust them because they'll rip you off like the guys who stand in front of Santa Monica beer with megaphones those guys well some of them are some of them are preaching the the word but but it would be a different story if you if you had been a Christian you had purchased that statue and then started practicing a belief that

to Buddha right instead of I I think I think backing up what he's looking for is some sort of understanding of this this code of intolerance that exists within within uh uh standardized religion sets right so like why why is there a a Christian belief towards uh man and woman being the only you know Union that is acceptable why why is a belief set on abortion in X Y and Z scenarios what and once again not me asking but this is big thing for through Mike abortion abortion is another one put it together Al so

this the difficult question is what is the purpose for which God made us and if there is no God life is a crapshoot it's meaningless but if God created us for a purpose then we better figure what that what that purpose is now according to Jesus Christ life is not a cosmic crapshoot according to Christ life has been given us by God for a purpose to love God with our heart soul mind and strength and to love our neighbors oursel is the way he summarized it okay then he gets more specific when it comes to

sexuality we read in Genesis 2:24 that when God created us he created US male and female and said for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother be United to his wife and the two shall become one flesh so there's a very positive statement of why God created our sexuality male and female God could have had procreation happen at the end of a Q-tip when a man and a woman mix their ear wax little babies could have been born that way that would be crazy he didn't choose to do it that way he

cre male and female and that is a gift from him it's a beautiful gift I never thought of this before but does an Omission from the scripture indicate a sin or a uh non accepted way of of producing a certain outcome I.E God presented to us Adam and Eve and said man shall marry woman but I'm sure there's you're going to give me passages but was there anything in in Genesis that said but man shall not marry man or woman should not marry woman like is there is Genesis Genesis communicates that to have sex outside

of a lifelong commitment between one man and one woman go okay is not cool be fruitful sorry I'm going to I'm gonna mess up on the scripture a little bit I need to back up what's the exact scripture he did say it's not cool well no you're exactly right that's not in the Hebrew what did he say turning into a Hebrew scholar here man look at that God not being gay ain't cool I don't think that was that wasn't in there man El's in the chat go what what is it though what what is the

act what is well Genesis 2:24 is a clear statement about he creates US male and female to become husband and wife then in Genesis chapter 19 different sexual immorality is communicated there different forms of sexual immorality but why would God then create a male who's attracted to a male if like you know God created all of us why would he create someone that goes directly against like like guys like being gay isn't a choice no one I don't think I think few people are like oh I'm I'm attracted to my the same sex I believe

um isn't that changing though because I think the lgbtq movement not too long ago said it's not a choice but the queer movement now is saying it is a chice look look look look look and they're like hey hey hey hey hat each other this is way above my pay I don't know I believe people are made that way I happen to be heterosexual I'm attracted to women attracted to one woman now but but um uh I I I believe you're just you're attracted to who you're attracted to granted like yeah things are super fluid

now and like people are making decisions based on like their environment what they see whatever but like I I would argue that like you know if certain I think certain people are just attracted to who they are attracted to so why would God create someone in His image who goes directly against his codex that he created I didn't expect you to look at me right there all right no no well I just I mean briefly I think it's again I think you have to the the people that I know who are SSA same sex attraction

the ones who have decided to live a life of celibacy devoted fully to Christ they have claimed this level of their own personal flourishing that is just beyond imagination like talked to some of these people I've read their a lot of their testimonies and so I don't think ultimately that it you know excuses the pain because because we know different Scholars who are incredible New Testament Scholars who based off the experience of a close loved one becoming gay or being born gay they have changed their very interpretation of scripture and so it's so hard once

you like just what you said I totally agree in terms of how the experience plays into your own emotions cuz you feel tra you know just tragedy for this person who's actually you know if you're going to tell them the Mike Pence conversion therapy is what you have to go through to get out of this homosexual like that's tough I that's where I start to like Harbor resentment but remember like the Bible talks well over 300 times about heterosexual sin and only six times about homosexual sin and so Christians want to put homosexuality in this

crazy pedestal and I think it's just because they find a level of disgust in it which is really sad I mean all sin is is a there's a form level disgust they would say shame but shame exactly but but for us as heterosexuals we got to look at it as we have way more sin to wrestle with in many ways I don't want to make this like a whataboutism thing you know like I'm asking specifically he's going to go another Direction ask yeah ask I know the direction he's going all right see if you when

you listen to yourself talk the way you did I think there's a a presupposition you've got which is God created me the way way I was born and the Bible contradicts that meaning by that I was not born with a desire to forgive you hurt me bad enough I'm coming after you that's naturally what I do so then I've got to ask myself the question my desire to come after you and seek revenge is that what God created me to do or did God create me to forgive I was not born with a heteros ual

drive to have sex with just one woman I was born with a heterosexual drive to have as sex with as many good-look women as I could get into bed with me this whole idea that God created me to be this way no I am born with something that Jesus in the Bible calls a Readiness to sin Factor when I was a little kid playing in a sandbox with a buddy I got ticked with a buddy so ticked I picked up a metal truck and slammed him over the head with it cops are still looking for

you by the way that's right all right came very naturally I never saw that behavior model from my environment it was sort of an instinct it just sort of happened so this whole idea that every drive that I have that I'm born with is good no I've got a lot of drives that are not good in fact I'm a mixed up kid that's why I need God's help because I am a mixed up kid so through that analogy then is it safe to say that you believe that he's it sounds like you're saying homos is

a choice a Cho to someone's ability to forgive which I think is a faulty no no no no I think he was comparing sex with many different women I don't have to and the guy at the University of Arizona who said I date and I said really why do you date and he said because I have a very high testosterone level okay I didn't say yeah that's a crazy thing to say wild I didn't say to him no you don't have a very high testosterone level I don't know I don't know the chemical makeup of

his body but what I do know is he still has a free will he does not have to date right I think it's a faulty analogy Cliff I just okay how because you're comparing that to like someone's intuition and who they're attracted to you know yeah I'm attracted to many women are you attracted to men no why not because that's the way I'm hardwired that's my someone what if someone is hardwired the exact opposite way by their God and then not accepted by their God because God's book says we don't accept you because of you're

this way well first of all God accepts all of us he loves all of us all right so everybody is loved everybody has equal value and dignity the whole idea that I am more valuable because I'm a het I'm a homos heterosexual is a joke it's false I'm not valuable before God because I'm heterosexual right God creates all human beings In His Image but we're all mixed up kids we all have equal value I'm not more valuable well I'll tell you I used to go to a prison every Monday night and I used to go

into protective custody and talk with a guy who kidnapped little boys them murdered him and buried him I'd leave the cell and go and play basketball with the inmates and they would say hey Cliff how do you even talk to such a piece of dirt and I would say I'm sorry I disagree he's not a piece of dirt he's a human being created in the image of God he has just as much value as I do as you do but he's messed up but guess what so have I messed up and who am I to

sit back on my self-righteous arrogant pedestal and say I can't talk to you but comparing yourself to him is like comparing apples to a murdering that's that's in that's you're not even I get I get based on your theology that yes you guys are equal value in the eyes of God and if he accept Jesus he's going to heaven in my head from a logical practical perspective you are not that guy not even a little bit how do you know you heard what he said about the metal TR he did say he's dirty R metal

trck but not even not even not even a sliver you know and like super Noble of you to say that and in line with what you believe but I think that's ridiculous okay but what you got to remember is God is Holy morally perfect and I am so far from that Holiness that to comp to say that I'm really very much Superior to a murderer yes I'm obviously morally ethically superior in one sense but I fall so far short of God's standard of moral perfection that it's incredible well that goes back to our conversation earlier

about Mortal versus venial you know sin as well and is Sin Sin CH changing a little bit but still on this topic I want to ask you uh do do the both of you look at the scripture and the word of God uh quote unquote as something that is uh set in stone such as the um such as the Constitution for example right which which Hardline you know uh Patriots are unwilling to waver in our right to own as many guns as we want even though they're not muskets anymore and they're millions of rounds and

we you know this isn't legal and this isn't legal because the con Free Speech it doesn't matter what it is free speech or do you look at religion in the same vein or the word of God in the same vein or do you look at it as something where if the second coming were to happen today he would come down and say well based on you know Facebook Marketplace and X formally known as TW Twitter like I've made the following adjustments you know based on what's been going on here for the past several thousand years

like do believe that there's any fluidity in the word of God is my short question that I just asked over the course of the last three and a half minutes yeah king of Yap right but I try to draw a little analogy you know what I'm saying make it fun yeah so a lot of atheists will say oh you Christians just cherry pick you choose what you want to take literally and then you choose what you want to take metaphorically and it's a total joke I I look at to your point I think the chronological

snobbery is just because it's older means it's more faulty than if we got history from yesterday like I'm still with you on it but it's interesting chronological snobber is typically like oh these guys who claimed you know dead man rose from the dead they were just idiots and they believed in that no they would have actually had more Hoops to jump through than us in our scientific age because they were Jews they would have said no way would a uing savior raised from the dead but then all of a sudden thousands were becoming Christians like

that's weird like you got to explain that what's the what's supposedly The hoax that was pulled off there by Christians great point so so that that's one I think you have evidence for the resurrection throughout the gospels and then Paul backs it up as well in his Epistles so that's Crystal Clear thousands of documents that actually are connected so close within just a couple years of the events themselves which is just ha for any historian so any historian would say you know the documentation we have in the New Testament for example it's three and a

half empire state buildings if you stacked it all up the classical ancient documents of that time period so like Herodotus and everybody else all those Classics if you stacked all those up four feet so Scholars look at this historians look at this and say like the history of the Christian faith is insane Jesus Christ definitely pulled this off but wait a second hold on no there's a supernatural aspect to this so there's hypers skepticism getting back to that where they they put towards the Bible that they don't put towards any other historical document because there's

Supernatural claims in there so that's kind of the first point the second point is no I wouldn't take the Old Testament the same kind of way it's a good point like a talking snake I don't know if that was definitely Satan and I don't know if that was a snake or a worm for example I I think you know when clearly John talks about nothing will be added to this book that no it's not fluid in the sense of no one's going to add any type of writing to the Bible no it's it's the holy

word of God that set Stone which I'm very thankful for and so and then lastly you know you get head coverings for a a woman well there are a very small percentage of Christians I actually have a distant relative who makes his wife wears a hat you know to church on Sundays but he's not sexist in anyway I know him very well he loves his wife dearly and yet I would disagree with him on that because I don't think Paul was saying in this day and age all women need to wear head coverings to church

got it you talk we I want to get into the supernatural stuff littleit too yeah go ahead Logan pa um what did I want to talk about is it Superior to what I want to talk no no I I thought oh you had it right no no I didn't but what is it what is it in the vein of in the same you want to stay there for a second I think so I think so what just talking about tolerance yeah I actually when I when we started the podcast I I I was ser like

maybe I'll maybe I'll hear something that that makes me want to like Explore More I'm I'm curious have either of you explored other religions and and and and actually given um Credence to what other deities or scriptures are saying absolutely I have a great deal of respect for Muhammad who taught give alms to the poor it's one of the five pillars of Islam way to get to heaven I have tremendous if anybody doesn't respect at artha kab bud I think they are nuts why he struggles through the whole problem of suffering now his conclusion I

could not disagree more with cut off your desires no no no don't cut off your desires learn to distinguish between good desires and bad desires confronted by suffering I better have the desire to help people help suffering people for me to retreat and just cut off all my desires and contemplate and contemplate and contemplate no Jesus says feed the hungry clothe the naked visit those who are sick and in prison make a difference with your life in the lives of hurting people I have tremendous respect for a lot of Hinduism Gandhi is definitely a hero

of mine and Dr art Luther King and Gandhi followed this pacifism that was you know most commendable so yes to when whenever I'm talking with someone who believes something sin sincerely and they thought it through I want to study and understand what is true how can you not look at them with even like a maybe a subconscious level of patronization because in your head they haven't accepted Jesus Christ and you're going to the kingdom of heaven and they're not well it's simply an issue of Truth so much of this comes back to truth does God

really love you or not which means is God a personal being who you can live in relationship with or is God impersonal and it an idea a philosophy now Jesus says he's personal he really loves you which means he created you to connect with him not within an idea not with a philosophy not with a church not with an institution not with a church that has a rather sorted history and you're absolutely correct about that but rather connecting with him now either he's blowing smoke he's in fantasy la la land or else he's speaking the

truth that there's a God who really does does love you you matter to him and he wants to live in relationship with you I don't think that answers the question I'm I'm asking based on what you believe people who don't accept Jesus as their deity aren't getting into the kingdom of heaven so since these people aren't in the club and aren't going to go to the Eternal afterlife in Paradise that that you guys are because of what you believe you don't have a single ounce of like man I could save you if only you believed

what I believed in or like or like dang that's that's a shame we understand you're like pretty much a morally sound person cuz you're a monk but because you don't believe in Jesus like sorry pal you're not getting into the Afterlife my afterlife well it gets back to am I really a sinner are we all really Sinners do we all really need God's grace or not and obviously Christ said you do yeah so if I reject Christ what I'm rejecting is God's grace his forgiveness his love and that I'm free to do that but there

are going to be consequences rather severe that one heavy statement if you fall back on the character of Christ though that's how you ultimately answer this question okay like do you accept that Christ said actually love and forgive your enemies do you accept that Christ while bleeding on dying on that cross said father forgive them these enemies who were spitting on me putting vinegar in my cuts stabbing me with a spear putting thorns a crown of thorns on my head heckling me to No Ex you know to an endless type of extent you've seen Mel

Gibson's movie on The Passion of the Christ that's pretty accurate oh my God and yet he's on that cross saying father forgive them for they know not what they do like I trust that character when it comes to Judgment Day and I think we all want a judgment day If we're honest like when I'm working with women for example who've had five Correctional surgeries because their husbands have just beaten them to a pulp and then they take off and the cops cops can't find them or at the end of the day they're not going to

lock them up I mean you want a judgment day I think this is a very Justice oriented society and so they actually like the idea of a judgment day but they get caught up obviously and well here's how I want Judgment Day to go like I want Purgatory to be there and Hitler maybe even to work his way toward I'm sorry someone's actually envisioning that is that like a day-to-day vision for some people oh totally wow yeah that's not what I'm usually thinking about I'm gonna ask an insane question I hope this isn't Blasphemous it

probably is no please we like we like Blasphemous this is insane is there a chance that Jesus did exist but he was a f freaking genius a marketer an orator a Storyteller maybe even a little crazy so much so that people really believed what he did he even believed what he did when he was a Son of God you mentioned earlier some schizophrenics will say I'm Jesus I not saying Jesus was a schizophrenic but is there is there a chance he he really thought he was this thing and was was smart enough to be capable

of these things I will liken it to and I don't this is I don't want to sound Blasphemous here F called Jesus Neo from The Matrix right no no no no no just like just like you you see you see prominent figures um today rise up and have a cult following they call it a cult following because and oftentimes you watch these cult leaders yo they're low-key Geniuses they're they're they're Master manipulators they can or rate well and by the way like half of uh convincing people is just your ability to to articulate your thoughts

and so like when's the last time Trump walked on water when's the last time trumped talk it's it's it's just a question you know like like because because I'll follow this up with another question that actually gets into a little bit more like logically tactically about about the the timing in which Jesus rose um but but is that isn't even a possibility in your mind that that he was just a master at speaking and convincing no because nobody recanted none of the Apostles or disciples or the eyewitnesses nobody and it we would have to be

saying based off of the resurrection and then all of a sudden the persecution that all of these disciples and eyewitnesses went through they were dying for what they knew to be a lie very different than no no no no I'm not saying they thought it was a lie I'm I'm saying he convinced he convinced everyone he convinced himself he really believed this oh but you still have to deal with Resurrection right whether the resurrection actually occurs based on eyewitnesses correct he's saying it was like magic basically no I'm no I'm not no I'm not I'm

I'm saying like once you're so rooted in a belief system there are people in Cults right now who will tell you some absurd that they believe in absolute sincerity because their cult leader told them it's true so there were aund different would be Messiah movements when Jesus was alive okay around 100 this is kind of what all of them either disbanded or the Messiah figure was killed oh so Jesus Christ was the only one who pulled off this magic trick and converted over half of the known world at that time fair and this is based

on eyewitness testimony primarily yeah do you believe in aliens we just got that question uh UFOs I'm split on it why I have no idea why well there's no strong evidence or proof there's eyewitness testimony there is eyewitness testimony sure there's eyewitness testimony for Elvis too and everybody else but this gets back to did a resurrection actually occur physical historical Resurrection occur or not yeah then that's that's the clean well how much well how much alien uh evidence or Elvis sighting evidence exists where it's a mass of people a fullon saturation of one area where

every no I know they exist but it's it's like it I I understand that but I'm saying like how often how prevalent is that where there's corroborating evidence from PE from from hundreds of people that then gets corroborated by people people after them and there's physical uh leftovers there there's yeah I guess technically to that point there's some of that stuff but do you believe in UFOs I'm not sure I don't know I think it's possible yes and I think it's possible that Christ was just a great manipulator you do think it's possible course I'm

not even saying by the way I'm I'm just asking a question anything is possible okay it's possible your mother doesn't love you Mom Mom speak up she definitely loves my brother more [Laughter] hold your cross up what is that exercise again from George's we are we here you know like are we here right now no no no I I well no do the exercise do the do the are we here exercise with me all right it's possible that I'm not sitting here right now explain to me why why because there's no way that I can

prove to you beyond the shadow of a doubt that my eyesight perceives reality that my ears pick up sounds I can't prove that solid evidence a lot of evidence but I cannot prove that but now you now you now you're just debating the structure of the human makeup well it's a school of PlayDoh I think it was Plato right like can you even trust your senses exactly like is any is any of this real at the end of the day all of this comes down to personal belief if you if you put all seven billion

people on the planet in this room somehow and said is Cliff right there you can touch them and talk to him they'd all tell you the same thing they would all tell you the same one person says opposite and that one person is so sure at the end of it's still the statistic would be that's 99.999 repeating forever percent true which by the way if you were to be the one who is like oh it's not you're probably not right at at the end of the day the the thing that you're missing that this all

boils down to at the end of the day is Faith is Faith like you can people can provide you this provide you that until you've felt the hand of God touch you in some way or your life has changed through your belief set or your life has changed through your day-to-day prayer like mine has as I escaped the Reigns of a 10year addiction to heroin and living on the streets and and fighting every single day for survival and I started praying to God and saying thank you and help me today and thank you and help

me today my life got me to this couch so I have the the personal evidence until you feel it and you have that Faith truly bestowed upon you no proof is going to be an answer how how can I subscribe to a faith when there are such obvious contradictions within the Codex itself that make it really really hard because if you live a life based purely on logic I I to to Cliff's Point earlier How Could You Believe in Friendship love any of these things that have no natural explanation there's no logical explanation as to

why you feel they are okay then why does an animal Feel Love why when I don't know you tell me what's the logical explanation for the feeling of Love wait so next time you see your wife are you just going to say hey this is my oxytocin going off right now we really don't have that is what he would no that is what no no no I love her I love her but what is love then if if it's you know from an atheist if there's no God yeah then it's just the oxytocin neurochemicals petal

chemicals at this point in humanity I am unable to give you a scientific explanation question if in 50 years the brain can be mapped out and you can say exactly why you feel what you feel does the belief or the faith in in Jesus go down because I think what's happening right now is people are getting turned on to the possible idea of more explanations for stuff and thus aren't turning to Faith as frequently I think all right but I think you've raised an issue consistently now Logan that I'd like to address which is science

and faith in God science and ethics science and morality all right science can prove that if I put strict nine in Grandma's tea she will die science could never answer the question in light of the fact that Grandma's loaded big stock portfolio why should I not put strict nine in her te kill her in order to get the inheritance science can't answer that that's an ethical question science is concerned with the process the physical process and that's wonderful it's beautiful but it cannot address the question should I put strict nine in Grandma's tea to get

the inheritance that's an ethical moral question has nothing to do with science see so that's why you've got to realize there is truth scientifically very important but there's also truth ethically and there's also truth regarding God and your good buddy has just talked about his experience which is not a scientific thing but it's his personal experience that took him out of drug addiction y right so but it's a different type of knowledge totally makes sense sense because I I I can't explain why I feel certain things in the way I feel good and and and

if I were to seek explanation like I do with some things that maybe can be described with science yep perhaps faith is a good answer to that sentience Consciousness perhaps it's a good answer to that again for now I think we're advancing at a rapid Pace I think in 50 to 100 years there's going to be answers to a lot of these questions are think that we know the we we have come to a point scientifically where the big bang is believed to be a way to explain the origin or expansion of the universe people

will still for the rest of time ask question of who pushed the button what was the impotence for it y there will always be a well what happened before that what happened before that well what's the precursor to all of that the the the thing that I look at is a two-prong situ system scenario where I have faith backed by science I think you need both of those aspects to be a Christian and and without one of either of them it's it's it makes it harder I also believe that his uh and I'm sure you

guys do too his doubt questioning and continued skepticism is is healthy I think there will be people that watch this that will that will persecute him for his question dude go so God strikes me down because I'm intrigued curious and absolutely that's insane there will be there will be like righteous people in the comments were like he's he should just believe like dude I just like I'm not wired like that like I'm I'm so curious like I'm I'm just asking questions no but going back to the questions that are look look at Peter I mean

there's so many characters who are exactly you in the Bible so these self-righteous Christians are just self-righteous and they're completely missing so much of scripture I think I I think one question you got to ask is this truly just intellectual doubt or is this emotional my dad or because the gay issue like that's all emotional or is this volitional because I want to live a certain way and God tells me he has to run my life I want to run my own life like is it a mix of all three or do you think this

is purely just intellectual I think I think no it's not intellectual because what Mike said I think is accurate I think there's a level of science that explain what the is going on here I also think there's a level of magic that can't explain what the is going on stop swearing twice in one Sor I'm I turned it off specifically for this episode not to corrupt I think I think I think uh I think life is about balance I think the universe is about balance that's a balance that makes sense to me that's a balance

I kind of have to accept because man stuff is um stuff is confusing the world is confusing sure to answer your question I think it's I think it's too prong I think I think again I'm just going to be honest here I feel like I can be honest with you guys I feel like no matter what I say you'll still accept me please you better believe it please um um one is in intuitively I told you I grew up Christian my mom would take me to church um she'd put me in what's it called PSA

it was it was like the the this PSR PSR the after school religion religious program for like young people man I was like seven eight years old just had like an icky feeling being in this class and and and and they were preaching the the word of God and the Bible and we were sing these songs like I I can still say the Our Father prayer I got baptized and everything but like I just had like a at seven mind you I don't know I don't know what the world's comprised of what experiences I'll live

I have no pre conceive Notions about any of this and I believe a child's intuition is extremely valuable I think there's a lot of Merit in what a child feels they're a blank canvas what they see and experience is not rooted in any sort of inherent bias your feeling you're solely based I'm feeling I think that is an indicator that's important for me I asked her to take me out of the classes and I wanted to stop going to church and she probably wanted to do something else you're a kid you probably wanted to go

out and skateboard and so you were pissed that you were not wasn't a feeling of boredom it was a feeling of this doesn't feel right to me that's what it was secondarily like I said the some of the obvious things that make me go this contradicts itself in a way that I'm uncomfortable to providing my faith to is the gay marriage issue is the abortion issue is the what was the other one there's a bunch of it of uh I forget the other one intolerance of other people's really that's it that's it in yeah the

int so so to me like those are that's such an obvious like how can we claim moral soundness when we're alienating and isolating a lot of people in the world because of how they were born that's where I that's that's in succinctly that's where that's what I wrestle with well why are people valuable why are why are people valuable from your perspective why are people valuable I'm not sure people are valuable I wouldn't I wouldn't say that's entirely true but your whole argument has been gay people are valuable everybody's valuable I'm not willing to apply

that absoluteness to the sentence that people are valuable I think there are worthless people in the planet that don't provide or make themselves useful at all to the benefit once but that that's quite a judgment call made right you said there are some people who are really worthless and there are people who add value to the planet that's quite a judgment call right it's also balance I believe I don't I don't think I'm willing to say people are are valuable what about people what about people are valuable when they're valuable and at other times they're

not like making an absolute statement about someone's worth is is extremely challenging and going back to my always on uh empathy that exist because of my background there was a time in my life where I was valueless in fact I was a net negative for the world I was a terrible terrible person and and if you had looked at me at that time you would have said this person is a on society he should be removed from it I then took that experience wrote a book about it and started to help instruct people how to

get out of that worthlessness so to ever make an absolute statement about anyone's worth on this planet whether good or bad is a mistake like Adolf Hitler mistake he if if if one if one thing had we've we've been through or I would I would I would Slaughter him given the chance obviously sorry F Adolf Hitler one simple change in his upbringing or his or his or or his or his his personal Evolution could have pushed him in a completely different direction I I just I I'm I'm unwilling to to sit here and say people

are valuable knowing there's murderers legit moral sin criminals out there like I that's a blanket statement I'm I'm well if you wanted so if you want to remove murders and okay so put an asterisk next to people are valuable do do humans let's do good humans can we like can we get a little more specific with the with the sentence so we can move to the next I'm convinced that you are valuable not because you got a lot of viewers or a lot of likes I'm convinced you're valuable not because you got a large bank

account I'm convinced you're valuable because you're a precious human being created in the image of God who God loves that's why you're valuable and I'm convinced that when you were living on the streets and homeless and a cocaine addict you were valuable because you were a human being created in the image of God but if you take God out of the picture you're up a creek Without a Paddle when it comes to explaining why why why is anybody inate value and the sick thing is you and I live in a society that says oh no

no no it's your likes it's your views it's the size of your stock portfolio it's the style of car you drive the house you live in that's What Makes You valuable or insignificant it's your ethnic it's your ethnic Heritage that makes you valuable or less valuable that is all a Croc it's all a lie according to the scriptures according to Christ you're valuable you're precious cuz you're a human being created in the image of God and God's created you for a purpose I mean just go to a cemetery look at the gravestone birth date death

date what's in between those two dates a dash is that really what life is about a dash from the hospital you're born in to the hospital you die in if that's true we are not valuable but if we're created by God for a purpose to love and worship him and to love and serve each other if we're created to live for eternity in heav Heaven by golles we are really innately valuable then why does God create murderers and scumbags he doesn't create people to he creates people to love and respect each other but he's limited

his power by giving us a free will and I'm real glad we have a free will because if your wife just loves you because of who you are pretty shallow pretty trivial but if she really loves you for who you are that's beautiful if she's really committed to you till death Parts us that's beautiful and that's what you long for it's what I long for it's what we all long for that type of depth of love and friendship with each other I would say that's why humans are valuable if I had to answer the question

with an asterisk including just excluding the mortal sin people I would say we're valuable because we mean something to each other but you earlier talked about forgiveness you talked about our messed up society and all the breakdown more yeah all of the shouting at each other because there's no objective morality we all just disagree on what's right or wrong I think you're appealing to some type of source you call it God but it's something Transcendent where you are ushering in a type of value to human beings where it's I think people should forgive each other

I think people do have equal value and shouldn't be shouting each other down because we're all created in God's image and historically that's what changed the world like when this atheist was he got a Blitzer prize I think for writing this book um what is it a brief no it's not A Brief History of Time whatever the title is It's an atheist writing it and historically he just documents how the world totally changed when people started to understand that every single human being has value because they're created the image of God this is an atheist

writing this that totally changed my per perception of things because I was where you are right now in thinking oh no it's just a subjective thing and I'm going to say who has value who doesn't and so when a college student says like I have I have no value yet CU I'm still in college we get this all the time and I'm going to have value when I start making money it's like well you're going to look at people as dirt bags all the time because because the people who have less of the money than

you as a cast system dude it's not it's I am not the person assigning value to to XYZ but I am a person who will tell you it's really hard for me to assign value to a person who or a person who murders sure that's hard for me agreed um same here yeah so like the the blanket statement of like humans or bro I think there's some well yeah you could find an outlier for any for any situation I think ful you know um um do you feel buttoned up there can I is there anything

else before I ask my next or do you want to ask something because I I'm I have a less like just are you going to hit the abortion one or no you brought that let's talk about it let's I wasn't you reminded me no no no I that's it's another thing I'm just you know I mean it's the that's the classic like uh 12 year olders um and uh a subset of Christians say she can't have an abortion because it's it's it's against the Bible um or it's illegal in their state and which I think

is another issue of me the the intertwining of church and state is uh a little bit difficult for me to get behind because even though you may be an American who lives in Texas perhaps you're not a Christian perhaps you don't abide by Christian um rules and beliefs and so you know it's not a Le it's not legal in Texas to get an abortion partially because the Bible said so and when the um uh Constitution was written it was heavily intertwined in that document and so that's another thing I thought was a little hard for

me to to to be able to get behind I I I I I I I really believe in women being able to make choices with their own body and I I don't think a a a panel of men should have any say in that right you mentioned us when we walked in that you're here to see the the ound of your child yep okay last generation yep it was only 35% of the US was pro-life yep now it's 51% that's a pretty because of ultrasound is that is that that's pretty is that true that's true

it's a pretty drastic change because of ultrasound insane and I think right then and there you see obviously the baby being torn apart you see the baby having emotions back to your point and you ascribe value you to that fetus or pre fetus and so when I hear for example over in the Netherlands you know I first heard and I got excited when I heard oh you know Down syndrome they're finding a type of cure I found out they're just aborting all down syndrome babies that's a cure that's a cure right some type of cure

and that's so it's ascribing zero value to Down syndrome babies we have a bunch of down syndrome kids in our church who are the happiest most joyfill most lifegiving human beings imaginable and so that's when you play fast and loose I think with human life and again if you don't ascribe value something outside of oh they're healthy or they're not going to be a suck on society if it's something beyond that where it's no they have value no matter what because they're created in God's image they reflect even God's image then you can't end that

life it's it's very funny you bring up the ultrasound thing we got the ultrasound of my yeah born baby girl yesterday and and by the way you're absolutely right I'm I'm I'm super pro life I I I I I always will be I don't I I think it's weird for anyone to decide what anyone else does with their body that's insane well let me let me ask let me no let me I just want no I I just want I saw the ultrasound yesterday 30 21 week old baby and I saw fingers I saw hands

I saw a baby I saw a little human personally yeah yeah seems a little up to abort a 21-year-old weak baby 21y old weak 21 week old baby old baby um yeah the ultrasound makes it super super real but in those odd instances and unfortunate instances we're like again it's always the you'll always have people pushing back on the on the conversation um or even like say someone determines they're not responsible enough and that's that's a responsible decision in itself maybe I'm not at a point in my life where I'm uh willing to take care

of a child because I don't have the means the resources the finances I don't I'm not I'm not stable enough into my own life to be able to bear this baby that's a I think responsible and like maybe maybe a little bit of an ethical decision because you deemed you're not able to raise his baby yet but but even your statement right there semi contradicts your original statement which is that you shouldn't be passing any judgment on when abortion is or isn't okay because the woman should have the whole say like in in like you

in your original statement if a woman says I want to abort this baby it's her body her choice so we all abide to that so we should have no there we shouldn't even be having this discussion based on your original well that's what it is no no no we should be having this discussion because it's all a discussion I think at the end of the day yeah at the end of the day yeah absolutely I will always always side with a woman who wants to do what she wants to do with her body I believe

that if Nina came sorry to murder your baby again for the third time if Nina if Nina came up to you today and was like listen like I'm having second thoughts here yep what I would do is have a prolonged discussion with her that I hope she'd be receptive to and I think that's like healthy you know well I mean what I guess what else can you do no I mean I don't know but like at the end of the day what am I going to force her to child for six months that's that's wild

to me um I know you're right the ultrasound thing is interesting cuz I saw this baby and I did have the thought like yo I'm pro- life but like killing this thing is little frecked up if if I were to like make that decision is is wild but you know in the instances of the most unfortunate circumstances based on your scripture you're still unwilling to be okay with that decision of killing an unborn child even if it was a product of the Bible never uses the word abortion okay the Bible does say we're not to

murder and murder is killing motivated by selfishness hatred or Revenge obviously there's such a thing is self-defense which is different ethically so murder is killing motivated by selfishness hatred or Revenge all right so then the obviously the hard question is when does human life begin yeah right that's the hard question it's the question now between in every major university hospital in the United States if a body lying on a in intensive care bed has brain activity and heartbeat brain activity and heartbeat doctors and nurses are legally medically responsible to do everything within their power to

sustain that life so between 6 to 10 weeks after conception that quote little piece of skin in a woman's womb has both heartbeat and brain activity it has the credentials to Merit what we consider life that makes a lot of sense to me okay good so then the question the difficult question becomes well what about before 6 to 10 weeks all right what is the difference between a 2- we old fertilized egg a six-month-old fertilized egg and you I would argue there is no difference in kind there is a difference in degree obviously of maturation

different degree of maturation no difference in kind 100 times out of 100 that little fertilized egg is going to come down a woman's birth canal never as an alligator never as a chicken or a bunny rabbit 100 times out of 100 as a baby as a human life so therefore I would argue that before 6 to 10 weeks even though there is no brain activity or heartbeat you've got a human being there because there's no difference in kind just in degree of maturation so that is why I would be very very hesitant to go down

the abortion path makes sense that makes sense totally makes sense I yeah I I guess I'll always fall back on like like we can sit here on this couch and like talk as men about what we think about it but man like men making decisions for women like really irks me yep Christians haven't done a great job of helping out with adoption agencies and raising up these babies like we still have to do a much better job and when that's structured and organized I think there's a great answer to it even for you know the

crack babies where the moms can't support the baby at all yep there's no father um okay let's I want let let's ready to move on let's do it something less uh something less like intense CH be Supernatural a little lighter if you were a little lighter yeah um I am so curious how there's so many different denominations the world so many different scriptures and so many people to believe so many different things um and yet it seems like the entire world follows the Christian calendar right we're we all agree it's year 20 24 we use

the year zero Jesus's death right his birth Jesus's birth yeah as as as well because G there's a really simple answer to this what because Jesus existed in all the religions but even though other religions don't worship him as the deity they do acknowledge that he a he definitely 100% did exist and he not only did he exist even though we believe in a different deity this deity is important enough that we agree that it's year 2024 I just find that interesting do do you have any explanation on like how we all came to this

consensus I think it just shows why so many historians it's like consensus that he was the most impactful historical figure barnun yep they'd say Buddha your Buddha statue I like that he's gone Buddha was like number two but uh so you were yeah you were close there but I I so I think just again gets back to the impact and I love Mike I didn't know you knew that because I didn't know that until real recent how Jesus is the only religious commonality literally commonality but also every single religion looks at Jesus in a positive

way no other historical figure even comes close to transcending that and being in every holy book and I think that says something as well just the impact for sure I'm just always fascinated by that like like we're here we are like currently Waring over what we believe in yeah and we all agree that Jesus was born on this day and we decided to structure the entire world's calendar around that right it's Merit in that again is it schizophrenic just pulled off no I don't think so man I don't think I don't know do you guys

believe in the classically accepted appearance of Jesus Christ like what do you think what do you think he look like Saul and Paul T like get knocked off the horse no like I just mean like like long hair oh I see I see long dark hair no Jesus did not have blonde hair and blue eyes he was not a wasp he was not a Westerner he was a Jew Jew and uh obviously there's been a boatload of racism that has been justified in the name of Christianity it's sick it's sad there's been a bunch of

anti-Semitism in the name of Christianity which is sick and sad there's been a bunch of uh prejudice against Arab people against African-Americans Africans it's tragic Jesus does not come for One race he comes for the world he loves every single one of us it's a ve it's a very interesting moment moment in time to be a Christian and I want to ask you regarding I carefully ask you regarding the ongoing conflict in Gaza um the general consensus of the of the Christian World on what we are seeing in Gaza right now and I know that's

a loaded question I asked it specifically and you know I mean man there's there's probably personal thoughts on it and intellectual thoughts on it but I guess like is there anything that the Christian faith could lead us towards as we as we try to or at least as we watch this uh situation unfold and hopefully get resolved thugs are evil regardless of their nationality thugs are evil regardless of their ethnic heritage why because morality is not relative and we know that as children we say it's not fair that my sister got two scoops of ice

cream and I only got one and we know that as spouses as we look into the face of our spouse and say you should not have said that to me you should not have treated me that way you can't live out moral relativism it does not work so thugs are evil regardless of what their ethnic Heritage is and Jesus Christ calls us to respect all human beings because we all are created in the image of God and he loves us so much that he sent his son Christ to buy us back to redeem us to

give us eternal life and there is no message that so affirms human life as what Jesus taught that we are going to be in heaven when we trust in him for eternity that is the greatest affirmation of life and In Heaven There going to be people of every language tribe language people group whenever you see Power behind the Christian faith so whether it's Constantine who took the Christian faith to try and use it 325 if you see in this case whether it's Israelis or Palestinians I think that's where Christians need to run whether it's you

know this side's getting more artillery or this side is claiming that you know terrorists are not really terrorists and it was just all the media and that the World Trade Center a girl was just telling me who shut down a bridge in Arkansas protesting and then she was convincing me on the plane that you know there there are no terrorists in the world who are connected to homas or anything like that you know whatever side claims to have this type of of power where they can Infuse Terror into it that's anti-christian because again this all

gets back to value of life and if everybody has equal value you're going to have the best type of Peace this world can see like it's it can't be subjective if I start saying you have value and you start saying you don't have value because you you're just it's just going to separate everybody and so I I I think it's fascinating again your your power question was you know history's written just by the powerful well why would in the world would anybody want to be a Christian one within the first 300 years of Christ you

were losing property losing family members and then you either went to prison or killed yourself and yet so many thousands of people were doing it based off I his testimony and claims and then you see historically like whenever again whether it's church and state you brought up that as well whenever Christians try and claim power and bring power into the gospel it just dies absolutely dies the power comes from the weakness and the love you know what's interesting I look I look I look a lot at like human nature it's how I make a lot

of decisions like I'm a marketer I don't know how well you guys know me but I I I really enjoy marketing um and I think it's because I like understand people or like at least like what captivates and I I believe I can tell stories and so if I were to just look like objectively at like what you've hit upon multiple times now steuart I not to not to say anything about about what you've said Cliff but like I I I I resonate with like the logic of what you're saying like a lot and and

and specifically with just like the human nature of the resilience of this belief it it it does seem weird like something happened something really special magical and significant happened that influenced a ton of people to subscribe to Christianity and so it is hard it's hard you can't you can't write it off as as as false like like I you know I I I don't know if I'm ever going to ever be able to like put my foot down on something um but um I I did want to ask just this is more like just like

a tactical like logical question um and by the way do you guys have to go to the bathroom or anything are you okay you're good on time okay how about you I'm chilling dude unbelievably for the first time in 400 episodes like I have to use the bathroom oh that's fine I want to talk about supernatural stuff can I I I I want to that's kind of where I was going as well cool I I'll wait let's take a go ahead cuz we'll sit and talk about all kinds you mind if we take a five

take five okay be right back everybody feeling all emptied out yeah Holy Spirit move Holy Spirit activate May got to make room for more godliness yo that cannot be right whatever's happening out here right Landing I it would have been perfect if Logan said come on guys I'm just not buying the shick God show me a sign and two Window Washers crash through the window and he's like still not buying it need more science um what is going on dude all right Mike want to talk about supernatural can I can lead into for okay okay

I want to talk to you guys about supernatural happenings because we talked about like simulations before you lived a 100 lifetimes do you still become a pastor like that kind of stuff is like super interesting and exciting to people nowadays and I don't really ever like give it too much thought but the other day I was at dinner with my family because I'm I'm I'm sorry bro I cannot move forward with this scaffolding collapsing outside the window no this is actually a dangerous situation that's what I'm saying this be right oh it's getting a good

swing on it leave your scaffolding yelling let me take a look at dude this is actually kind of crazy dude get on right there right is there anyone is there anyone physically there don't stick your head out who's who's in Charles here Charles is this is this you to that's his drink oh just him yeah no I know I wish right it would be cool if it was the two of us well we've been having conversations about it lately he I've got them these are good thank you bro thank him wait wait what did you

say you drink them after staff do a sandwich place I'm always on the prime yeah oh you actively drink Prime totally awesome sandwich place what's that what sandwich place is it oh I know you probably know it what sandwich is it club sandwich club sandwich yeah guys club sandwich in new Canan has Prime which is crazy that's nuts uh okay so I'm at dinner with my family being a Family Guy my my uh little uh niece is there and it's just we're at this Korean restaurant in Connecticut in Westport Connecticut ironically last week for Mother's

Day and I got this strange urge to just out of nowhere I was like I'm going to I sorry I have to leave I'm going to go call gag and that was my grandma that was her nickname she's passed away two years ago and she was like my closest person and we were like best friends and I was like I'm G to go call my grandmother and everybody was like what are you talking about I was like yeah I just need to get that phone from The Twilight Zone I'm a huge Twilight Zone fan and

there's this episode where uh this this little boy's able to to call his grandmother using this this magic phone and she's she's pass she's in heaven conversation changes everything ends and I go home and I'm a bit of a gambler I'm working on it but I go home and I want to check on the game and I flip on the television and there's the little boy on the phone in the episode of The Twilight Zone on the television like this is not PE probably someone is imagining that I'm making this up right now like I

I took a picture of the screen sent it to all my friends sent it to the group chat I had this weird urge to talk about calling my grandmother like in this episode of The Twilight Zone I got home and that episode was on the television people said well yeah it's because your phone's listening to it was on cable they didn't change the cable schedule based on my conversation at the Korean restaurant Westport something happened there there was a skip on the record there was some there there's no coincidence in the world that could explain

those two things happening in a conjunction like that what does Christianity tell us about signs from God or from the afterlife or or so on and so forth I think we make two mistakes as Christians one to just totally write it off and just say oh no that's a coincidence two is to say oh clearly God's telling me something in every situation and then they come see me because they turn schizophrenic yeah yeah yeah so I I I think we got to be very careful because of 911 a lot of people would say well that's

God's judgment on New York City because it's such a heathenistic my gosh Meat Market I don't think I mean how do you how do you come to that conclusion I think signs do we have signs of earthquakes do we have signs of terrorist activity do we have signs that the Catholic Church talks about in terms of power plays that are connected to the Book of Revelation sure but the challenge there becomes are we going to put Billboards up saying that because of these signs Christ is going to return tomorrow no I'm not talking about Sodom

and Gomorrah I'm talking I'm talking just about these little like does Christianity provide us any kind of understanding of a link between the here and the then or the here and the there if that makes sense do we still have a connection to our our ancestors the people who have passed are we are they showing us things should we be on the lookout or is that Blasphemous like do we know anything about that when Saul consulted the dead through Samuel that's looked upon as in a very poor light oh Ouija board type stuff exactly God

so clearly that's a sin and talking to relatives I don't get anywhere in Scripture that that's a good thing because in scripture we we get frequently that we're going to have Resurrection bodies physically being able to encounter one another and love each other in ways that we couldn't even do it here we couldn't even imagine what that type of Love is going to be like so for example back to the emotions piece you know you have Buddhism it talks about how you lose your individual self when you go into this all soul and there's no

ability to really communicate and have a relationship with one another because you've lost yourself but Christianity is yeah you're not talking to a loved one I I think you get in all kinds of trouble when you try and consult the dead for example like Saul did specifically it's a waiting period where a lot of people will believe in Soul sleep where you eventually wake up into the presence of God but that's going to take a long time until the Judgment comes unless it's that soon or people believe no it's when I depart I am with

Christ and I think that's pretty clear out of Hebrews 9:27 where when we pass away we are immediately with Christ and we don't have connection to one another it's not this we hate hearing at funerals this whole line of you know an atheist will say oh yeah the spirit lives on Spirit lives on like I've never believed in God I've never had any type of contact with Supernatural think that's a joke but I'll be playing with Paul and golf and some type of Hereafter and all of a sudden they believe in heaven and all of

a sudden the spirit lives on because they encounter death so that's always been we see that tremendous inconsistency when they're slapped in the face with death that is kind I think it points to the experiential side of no we long for heaven like when Steve Jobs died Steve Jobs was a strong atheist and he hated Christianity but he got to this point of saying I don't believe all my work is just going to fade away I don't believe all this relational connection that I've had and built up over my whole life that it's just going

to end with the click of a mouse and so he became a Believer so I think when you face death there's no nothing in scripture that talks about Consulting and having that type of connection um if it's not in a dark kind of way where you're Consulting evil I didn't do anything I just turned the TV on right he was just there I just was just curious about anything that God is or anyone you know in the scriptures or anywhere has ever said about signs of any kind so Gideon are you where would you go

the Bible insists that God is the Eternal Creator so he's outside of space outside of time which obviously means he's a spiritual being Interstellar correct but it also communicates that God has stepped into space and time in the person of his son Jesus Christ and God's holy spirit is at work in our lives today second Point yes there are signs we have to be very very careful because that gets to be Hocus Pocus all right yes Gideon said really God are you telling me to kick the midianites out of Palestine out of Israel fine tomorrow

morning I want the fleece on the ground dry and all the ground around it wet well that happens God gave him that sign not enough for me I want the fleece soak and wet all the ground dry tomorrow morning well that happens this was not a sign of Gideon's faith it was a sign of his doubt he really doubted God but God honored him in spite of that and gave him those signs and Gideon went on so I would encourage you to be very careful of signs but yes does God give signs absolutely yes and

the Bible records many of them got it wow where were you going in the Supernatural World Logan actually it wasn't Supernatural natural no yeah more natural super super super got something super super for you guys all right got hypothetical and then I have a question that I have been dying to ask you guys uh just super logical tactical but we'll get there well don't die till you accept God to Christ for sure for sure sorry so my first question um forgot it sorry was it the window washers no um oh all right I asked you

about UFOs earlier [Music] here all right so so so look there's something going on there is something going on with extra no no no I'm not going to say extra terrial life because we don't know what it is there is definitely something going on with UAP unidentified aerial phenomena that is a fact Congress is now finally admitting to it we're getting little hints and tidbits here and there stuff is leaking that we're seeing about um propulsion vehicles and machines that defy uh physics as we know it they can create their own gravity and that's how

they're flying through space which by the way I I I think is probably what's happening you see these uh these um usually the the orbs or some some type of machine without any like identifiable propulsion system um using what's potentially maybe they're calling like a warp drive where these things can create their own gravity um the guy uh who went on Joe Rogan's podcast and said he worked at Area 51 um he he he was talking about how he was working on an anti-gravity or gravity creation device that he found and that that's what the

government was working they're trying to reverse engineer it anyways this Tech that I believe exists that we will find out more and more about in the next couple decades um I think could be an interesting window into the very far future Perhaps it is extraterrestrial what if some sort of advanced civilization creature or technology comes down to earth and they're obviously probably going to laugh at some of the stuff we do but they have answers to the origins of the universe or maybe they don't just like us to like we don't know we have no

idea which is me me we don't know what the heck is going on which would be horrifying but what if they do have answers and what if some of their answers are practical and completely negate the idea of like a deity as creation moment or they do have some sort of explanation for life and why we're here or they have video for Content I don't know I don't know what they but but but the question is if like you were like if if some sort of extraterrestrial creature came down to earth in this hypothetical scenario

and showed us and like yeah like no no this was the origin of the universe this is why you're here this is what what you're doing would you be like damn I guess what I believed isn't true would that be hard for you like and I know this I know this sounds ridiculous but like man in 40 50 60 years maybe something like this happens and I'm calling Stewart I say yo steu they're saying they got explanations what do you say I'm with them I think I think there's so much you have to do to

Discount the Christian faith like it's not just an uary a tomb that you roll over and you see Jesus's DNA somehow I would need more than even that to Discount the Christian faith you know I would you have so much geographically that is connected I mean when you go to Israel for example you get a you get a Christian tourist y to show you all of Israel from directly the book of Acts because no other book comes close to showing you the correct geography or these historical figures Caesar all these others or all of the

different archaeological evidence that we have I think is it is just so clearly Christian that Christ actually lived died and rose from the dead so I you know take away the aliens you would need a ton to show me that the resurrection didn't occur and that all these events didn't occur if the aliens come down and they truly show me that no there was no Creator because there was no beginning there was no beginning of time say the Multiverse it's just time has lasted forever and so you don't need a God yeah you need a

God if time has beginning that's why Einstein had a fudge Factor he didn't want there to be a God but he said let's let's create a fudge factor to make it seem like the universe has lasted forever but it hasn't lasted forever so he had to become a polytheist at least so if the aliens come down and say no the world is the world is x amount of years and the cosmos has lasted forever I would have to say yeah there's there's probably no God what would you go with I do not know if they're

aliens or not I'm totally open to it second point is obviously the Bible talks about angels and demons so obviously there's some type of non-human life that's real third Point what I have thought about is if aliens came tomorrow and said that it was good to slaughter human beings and to eat them as hamburgers what would be wrong with that Burgers you see the moral relativist has no answer to that the moral relativist says morality is just relative which means today we kill cows and eat hamburgers we humans kill cows eat hamburgers so if aliens

were to come tomorrow start killing us and eat human burgers something absolutely wrong with that because morality is relative there's a Twilight Zone episode with that exact purpose not even kidding now because there is a God who's Eternal who's the creator no I would argue it is wrong to kill humans murder humans and eat human burgers because God created human beings with an innate value so that doesn't change so I wouldn't be blown out of the water at all if next year we found out definitely aliens exist and their extraterrestrial life it's totally compatible with

the Bible's worldview okay cool what if they came down and said the Earth was flat I would say that they probably are out of touch with reality because the best of my ability using modern science the evidence is the Earth is not flat its round what if they said they tried to land in China and they were under the Earth so they had come back around and land on top of the map I wouldn't believe him yeah I wouldn't believe him either there's a lot of Christians who think the Earth is flat do you know

this that's sad do you know this we went to a flat Earth convention and the amount of Christians who were like I believe stars are Angel wow the Earth is flat cuz the Bible says so yeah it's weird the overlap is strange sometimes between the conspiracy theories and and and does that exist with any other is there's a scripture about there's a some passage about um what is the term that's used the it describes the shape of the earth and there's one word that is like it's similar to like Dome oh the fixure the no

the the filament the filament something about the filament filament yeah yeah yeah yeah and I think I think you know the subjective nature of it these people are like yeah well it's got to be flat why are they always from that area of the well Jesus said I'm the door it doesn't mean he's claiming to be two pieces of plywood slapped together he said I am the vine you are the branches he's not claiming to be a plant he's using metaphor similar well Christians take too in Psalms the Earth has been fixed on its axis

so they thought oh Earth doesn't rotate yeah yeah yeah could be something but the book of Psalms is it's poetry poetry and so when Christians rip you know all kinds of literalism out of poetry that's where the cherry picking comes from you know exactly like I don't know um animal animal heaven do animals go to heaven in hell what I'm just so curious like like I have I have a good boy I have a very good boy dog and when he passes away like he got to go to dog heaven like what what is what

is the requirements to go to the Eternal afterlife do I have to be a human the lion will lie down with the Sheep that's the reference we get okay now you you could take that metaphorically but no I think I think bully what's the XL Bully or the puggle where do they lie down if a sheep gets in everybody gets in sheeps are the dumbest animals supposedly in the world right their brains the size of ping pong balls like you have to have Shepherd for a sheep or it dies just one more one more question

about that uh what's what type of real estate we dealing with up there because like yeah dude what if we run out of space you know what I'm saying and then they're like dude like n you guys gotta go to freaking Tuscaloosa you know what I'm saying like you can't come here this is all full sorry that's a ridiculous question well why because I I actually believe you're mocking it a little bit no I'm not if it's like an eternal afterlife like the the rules and Bounds of space and time don't don't try to project

your mockery onto me no I'm actually I actually think you're asking I'm really not I swear I swear to you I am okay ridic let's put some some like theoretical or or philosophical beliefs on what the afterlife looks like for a second right is it a place in time is it a is is is it a a energy encapsulation like I If we are assuming some semblance of individuality as a human like may do we take up space how is that such ridiculous I I don't believe that's a ridiculous question you're maybe it's maybe it's

Blasphemous in that it believes that God could not provide a large enough real estate technically I guess so maybe questioning that the size of the land potentially well it's not land it's a clouds listen guys dude he he said some crazy stuff today dude okay like let's go back just let's go question and I asked what if they out of space that's all I said Stephen Hawkings said he couldn't God because the universe was too big and my point is I'm sorry Stephen God is bigger than your ability or my ability to understand he's the

eternal all powerful creator of Heaven and Earth all right so he's really really big and yes the universe is really really big secondly Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 is attacking the idea that heaven will be a disembodied Spirit existence and he points out no in heaven we're going to have Resurrection bodies imperishable bodies Immortal bodies and he was attacking Gnostic philosophy which teaches the body is evil and the spirit is good no the Bible teaches both the body and the spirit are good because God made both so in heaven we will have real bodies but

they will not Decay grow old and die the way our bodies do today we get new bodies new bodies bro I'm looking forward to it new ankles this is incredible dud new joints how old are you dude bro do you want this body or do you want younger you want old want younger for sure dude for sure I try to keep up with my testosterone to stay young but dude I can only do so much about these joints they're King quick I'm I have antique bones they're turned into dust as we speak it is crazy

to think though how are we going to recognize each other at what age I keep my grandpa's 22 am I gon to recognize it yeah yeah I keep telling my fiance Nina I'm like yo we got to find each other in the next life but like how will I even like where do I start like what are you going to look like right right you know to see what I know what I look like all right here's a question I really want to ask all right you believe in evolution you say you believe in evolution

yeah but isn't the Bible kind of anti-evolution no no no why do why do why do why do a subset of Christians vly deny evolution in the theory of evolution because they have a very tough time with the age of the Earth so they'll say it's 6,000 years old and so they'll really really push back against a lot of scientific theory okay and they are scared of the term evolution often times because they directly connect it with naturalism where you're going to have to say there is no God and what's so interesting about Evolution if

there is no God then you just go back to we came from a primordial soup that's what they believe that's what I read in the great state of Connecticut public schools everywhere in Middle School says we came from a primordial soup there is no evidence for that at all so how scary is that you know Christians always get pegged for the ones you know brainwashing their kids with all sorts of different types of Doctrine I think I think our culture today you know a secular culture today is brainwashing kids with with primordial soup and so

from my perspective no there has to be a God and that God created us in such a way where we are Made In His Image we have value but we have sin and evil comes into play when you have sin and so when you have something like Evolution you look at a bug landing on a frog slowly sucking its brains out and if we're simply created from the naturalistic perspective where there is no God that should be normal for us like like okay what's wrong with that it's just part of evolution and so for me

you know adaptation is not in any way contradictory to what the Bible talks about the Bible again it's not a scientific textbook even though it has taxonomy you know counting up with the animals for example going into the ark or Daniel for example doing tests around whether to eat vegetables or not there is different forms of science but overall it's I I love when atheists or Christians try and turn it into a scientific textbook and say it's exactly saying this the amount of years how how old the Earth is or for example you know does

it spin on its ACC axis you know St Augustine came in and cleared all that up he's probably the most influential Christian of all time Martin Luther as well and he said basically like look we're not going to cherry pick but we are going to look at the science and we're going to take the science and say does our interpretation of scripture really fit here or not and we're not going to be we're not again we're not going to cherry pick and we're not going to be dishonest in it Neil degrass Tyson a guy I'm

sure he's I'm sure he's nice in many ways but he came on and said look you Christians all you do is you reinterpret in order to fit the science and you're totally disingenuous in it that's not true at all like that's not what St Augustine was after it's not what Galileo all Christians were after they were saying no scripture doesn't speak to it it's silent so don't add to it or we have to reinterpret because that's not exactly what Psalms The Book of Psalms and poetry is talking about you you're you're willing to consider the

idea of reinterpretation yes if we've missed exactly context is King but doesn't that kind of like indicate the subjective nature of all of it no I I think it's so it's God breathed scripture is and so that means god used human authors it's not like certain holy books where it's God just out of the sky came this holy book no he actually used human beings to write it and there's 400,000 different variants that we got wrong but it didn't change any of the central tenants in the teaching theologically of what the Bible says and so

just because those variants are wrong like a comma here is wrong because it was you know misrepresented by a monk which by the way I think your earlier point on historicity you know the monks so carefully transmitted the Bible and everything in it that one would come in if they got one word wrong in writing on one page they would have to leave and then two more would have to come in if they got one comma wrong they would have to leave so they basically passed on all of the Christian Christian words and scripture as

well as everything classical all the classical history so I think they got it right but the interpretation we've had to work on work on work on and figure out hey should we be handling snakes and the snakes bite us and we die or so hey in Pennsylvania for example the girl who had pneumonia and the Christian parents said no no no the Bible clearly says we're not supposed to use medicine and we're supposed to pray this thing out she dies on the way to the hospital because they waited so long no I I think their

interpretation is probably wrong on that okay I see yeah um um this this leads into my next question the one I I really want to ask okay so first let me ask a question the uh uh the Bible was actually written in what year first century sometime the New Testament the New Testament sometime in the first century okay and Jesus was born in and on year zero about 4 or five BC the monk got it wrong who put the calendar oh oh really bad comma but there were two more that came in after him we

fa yeah exactly okay here's the question all right so you believe in evolution same you you you looked and acknowledge scientific evidence as as as Truth at least as far as we know some some stuff seems to make sense um Homo sapiens humans have been around for 200,000 years that's like the general like humans have been around for 200,000 years written history has been around for about 5,000 years five 6,000 years um before that I don't know if just we weren't smart enough to preserve our history we didn't care enough we had bigger um fish

to fry like at that time it was survival right um but at some point we started preserving our history and then at some point organized religion came around and and that was about I think two year 2 3,000 BC so you have 200,000 years of humans just like you and I maybe not as intelligent um but from the year zero when Jesus came to be to year now it's 2,000 years so you have about 95% of humanity that is unaccounted for in terms of the scaffolding Dylan has anyone alerted the building that it's being demolish

what they doing though no but but has anyone said yo just pulling it up hey man your your your building's being leveled look look look Kev show this he said they they stopped and now they're going again so I'm telling you go what is going what what but what are they doing like they're going to kill someone that's walking down the street is that what they're oh here we go seems like they've at least the is how does Christianity explain something like this no I really want to ask this question what all right so the

question is this what about those 19 you you have 2,000 years of humans 95% of them are unaccounted for because Jesus wasn't around to say hey this is like the scripture this means you go to heaven this means you go to hell what about them what about them they're going to be a lot of people in heaven who never heard the word Jesus Hebrews chapter 11 in the New Testament list some of these people by name Abraham Isaac Jacob Moses Rahab a gentile prostitute obviously they never heard about Christ they were born hundreds if not

thousands of years before Christ but in humility they put their faith in God and they're going to be in heaven but the reason they're going to be in heaven is because Christ bled and died on a cross to the penalty for their sin and they put their faith in God to the best of their ability population Spike huge literacy rate Spike gigantic trade Roots gigantic Spike yep makes all the sense in the world to me why Jesus came when he came okay it was like almost like a turning point in human history I see okay

but dang still like 200,000 years dang near of humans that didn't have any sort of like spiritualistic guidance that's that's that's a lot of people who who by the way definitely didn't subscribe to Jesus Christ because he didn't exist they they didn't know about him but God existed and in humility they put their faith in God and they're going to be in heaven but it wasn't Jesus right was just a god Abraham did not know Jesus Abraham knew God he had a had a faith in God but he did never not know Jesus you're right

so then the prerequisite for heaven wouldn't necessarily be subscribing to Jesus it would be subscribing to correct not knowing his name exactly there going to be a lot of people in heaven including infants who never knew the name Jesus but who will be in heaven oh so if you didn't have if you don't have access to the scripture then you yeah you get a free past basically well you don't get a free past the issue is do have you put your faith in God have you responded to all the knowledge that God has given you

what would that mean for a uh guy eating his own poop in a cave I don't know I do not know how will judge those who have never heard about Christ got it but I do know he'll be just and fair right Christ in the bible really bang away on the character of God is just and fair nobody's getting ripped off you don't have to worry about it can can I ask a question that all three of you are going to easily answer and and someone's going to just laugh at me in the comments um

when we look at Evolution right and we look at other animals that have evolved to their current state of evolution like the great white shark right or the squirrel right if we evolved from primates why do so why are there still unevolved primates like I said this should have an easy answer that I'm going to be all right like why are there humans and our old ancestral non evolved cousins do you know what I'm saying mhm if anybody tells you that science contradicts the Bible they either don't know what science science is or they've not

read the Bible science is a study of process there is no study of process anywhere in the Bible no geology no biology no chemistry no physics anywhere in the Bible so whoever tells you Bible contradicts science either haven't read the Bible or they don't know what science is so that is why steuart and I are totally open to Evolution as a process but not as An Origin the Bible does contradict Evolution as An Origin but not as a process the Bible clearly says in the beginning God not in the beginning hydrogen in other words there's

an intelligent mind behind the process of evolution that makes much more sense then there's no intelligent mind behind the process it all just happen by accident does that make sense ye uh it does and I'm with you on that like who pushed the button on the Big Bang I think I might have the answer to that question do you okay yeah I mean it's there are a number factors that contribute to evolutionary change and adaptation uh location environment resources time everything it it'd be like asking um you know why is my puggle not still a

wolf like like like dogs dogs came no but that's a crossbreed though they have a common ancestor so it's not like a chimpanzee sort of turned into a it's it's not like one it doesn't mean one one ex can exist and one cannot exist like got it there there there's a number of factors that go into Evolution and so I I think they all contribute to got it this interesting because what's your struggle with that when it comes to no I just I just like uh why is there like not less evolved gray whites right

or are there are they are the hammerheads do you know what I'm saying like what he said at some point evolutionary chain you have a common ancestor so we're just the alpha primate it's it appears it certainly appears well in in certain respects cuz from a power standpoint we'd all get I mean I go back and forth on this like if I I I tell the boys and I have this conversation a l I'd rather not hear bro there is no there is no animal under 80 pounds on this planet that I can't best including

a chimpanzee I believe I could beat up a well no but I wasn't talking about a chimp I was talking about a silver back silver back I'm not even having that conversation that's what no but wait sorry under 80 Jorge thinks Jorge thinks Jorge thinks a 30 lb chimpanzee could take me out no but what about an 80 lb what about a 79b linkx no shot absolutely there is no animal on this planet a 79b cougar absolutely not no with with claws like wol do matter doesn't matter I know Jitsu that's a triangle dude you

you are not choke putting a a cougar in a choke hole and I don't maybe if it's a girl but technically technically since Nina's older than you no disrespected you put a cougar and a Choco that's up bro I totally did though that's all I got guys I gotta get out of here I got you did you're right I gotta get out of here um that was excellent thank you so much thank you guys for your knowledge wisdom your time um you guys are so articulate and and I just admire your passion and ability to

express very complex uh solutions to hard questions based on what you believe it's like it's really cool and Science and science I uh I'm not a hypers skeptic I would even call myself a skeptic bro I'm just like am I a skeptic maybe maybe I don't know I'm just really curious and like I I just I like to ask questions I really like to ask questions and I think you guys have a nice balance of of where I try to be and on the opposite end where like faith comes in and um I I I

want to thank New York City for making this the noisiest always podcast in the history of the Universe um cliff and Stuart connly thank you guys for coming on impulsive thank you guys ask questions guys ask lots of questions but always do it respectfully and empathetically thank you guys that's all we got guys