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[Music] Come on. Oh yeah. [Music] Hello. Hello. [Music] [Music] 1 2 3 4 0 and I feel [Music] Okay, they can hear you. So, I'm going to mute mute so they can't hear you. Okay, minimize. Minimize. Alrighty, chat. Let's get started. Welcome to another Healthy Gamer GG stream. My name is Dr. Olive Kenoja. Although I am a doctor and the two awesome people who will be joining me today, Dr. Kirk Honda and Dr. Michaela Thorderson are also doctors. Nothing we discuss on stream today is intended to be taken as medical advice. Everything is for educational

and entertainment purposes only. So if y'all have a medical concern or question, please go see a licensed professional. So today we are doing something really cool. Let me just see if I All right. So I'm just going to talk. I'm just going to tell you what we're going to do. Okay. So, like theoretically, we could be doing announcements and stuff, but look, this is the last day of mental health awareness month. I guess technically tomorrow is part of mental health awareness. Oh, I need to go live. Interesting. Maybe I'm live now. I'm going to do

that disclaimer again. Maybe. I don't know. Okay, let me just see. Noticed that it said I was not live. Okay, whatever. So, we'll do the let me just do the disclaimer again. I guess we're doing it again. Sorry, chat. So, welcome to another Healthy Gamer GG stream. My name is Dr. Alo Kenoji. I'll be joined by two other doctors today, Dr. Thorderson and Dr. Honda. None of Although all of us are doctors, nothing we discuss on stream today is intended to be taken as medical advice. Everything is for educational or entertainment purposes only. If y'all

have a medical concern or question, please go see a licensed professional. So, we're already running a couple minutes late, which is totally fine. It's super cool. So, we're going to do something cool today, chat. So everyone is talking about can AI replace my job? So I saw a really fascinating paper about rad uh radiology. So like basically can an AI outperform a radiologist when looking at a chest X-ray. So a lot of people are concerned about the existential threat of AI. The other thing that we're seeing a lot of is a lot of people are

using AIs like Chat GPT or Claude for emotional support. I have patients and clients who do that. Um, and so like and then a lot of people are saying, "Okay, like I've been working with AI. It's incredibly helpful." So, what we thought we would do today is sort of give y'all a head-to-head comparison of whether like what what what would an actual doctor say when faced with a situation and what will an AI say when faced with a situation. And so if y'all are watching this, y'all can see for yourselves a direct comparison of like

what doctor doctors versus AI. So there are a couple of uh interesting things about this. So what we're going to be doing is giving um chat PT and the three of us, the three doctors will all be given a prompt and then we'll respond to the prompt, right? So we'll sort of talk a little bit about how we would approach this p person if they were a patient in our office and then we'll see what ChachiPT says. we'll see like how similar those are, how different those are, and we'll just kind of see like what

happens. Okay, so it's going to be like to my knowledge the first like head-to-head comparison of doctors versus AI when it comes to mental health issues. The other thing is that since these are like pro uh you know cases or like basically like stems, they're like things that we've taken from places like our subreddit, we don't have a gold standard of what the answer is, right? So we don't have a clear sense of like what the diagnosis is. There are a couple of prompts that I've that I actually do know. So like I wrote I

I want to write actually I want to modify some but I realized like it would be cool if I came up with a couple of cases that I actually knew what the diagnosis was. So like I I looked through my notes um and I tried to prepare a little bit of a case for like a patient that I actually worked with. So we do have some sense of a gold standard, but we'll see if we get to that. Um but without further ado, let's hop in. So we're going to do this. I'm gonna do this.

Hold on. There you all are. Okay. And then we're gonna do this and then I'm gonna unmute you and then we're good to go. Welcome. Can you all just Okay, great. I just wanted to make sure that the audio works. Um, so welcome Dr. Honda, Dr. Thorson. Do you all want to take a second to introduce yourselves before we dive in? Uh, Dr. Michaela Thorderson. I am a psychologist, a child psychologist by training and work with um mainly young kids, adolescence, transition age, so college age kids and then occasionally dabble in adults and do a

lot of family work. My name is Dr. Kirk Honda. I'm a therapist, professor, and YouTuber. Awesome. And um so are you all ready to get started? You guys heard the introductions. Okay. So, what we're going to do is we're going to give you all a prompt and the three of us, since we're all therapists, as we love to do, we are going to talk about how much we know and theorize and things like that. We are going to hypothesize, analyze, etc., etc., and then we'll sort of dump that prompt into chat GPT and we'll see

what chat GPT says. Sound good? Cool. Okay. So, here's prompt number one. Um, okay. So, Oh god, we're going to fix this real quick. I feel like John Henry, the legendary uh person on the railroad trying to go faster than the steam engine. Any and No, anyone remember John Henry? Am I Am I just too old? It's It's humans. Humans versus machines. Yeah. No, I don't think you're too old. I think you're too much of a therapist. And we're known for having archaic knowledge that, you know, that's great. So, I I love it. So, here's

um I I don't know. I think Allan can maybe send y'all I'm going to ask Allan to send y'all the PowerPoints just so y'all can see it too because I think if I screen share everything will fall apart. Okay. Okay. So, prompt number one. I don't know how to repair a relationship with my children. Over the past few years, they become increasingly distant, living their own lives. We were really close when they were growing up. I was a single parent working two jobs, abandoned by their father soon after the second was born. We were such

a tight-knit team. Even though I worked hard, I made sure that I made breakfast for them every morning before dropping them off from school. They used to complain about how busy I was, but I was hoping that as they become adults, they would understand the demands of paying bills, etc. I was hoping that they understood what it was like to be an independent adult. We'd get we'd go closer. But at basically every opportunity, they pull further away. I sacrifice my career, my romantic life, my social life for the sake of my children. but they don't

really have any gratitude or appreciation for it. When I try to explain this to them, they get really upset. I was happy to make the sacrifice for my children, but now that we're all adults, I was hoping that we could stay as a tight-knit family. Now that they don't need me anymore, they're living their own lives. It feels like pulling teeth to get them to come home for the holidays. They always ignore my phone calls. Last time we got together for Thanksgiving, they couldn't wait to leave. They said I was I'm always making them feel

guilty, but from my perspective, I'm simply sharing how much they've been a central part of my life and now they aren't. How can I get them to understand the sacrifices I made and stay connected to them? Y'all need me to read that again? Do you all have it? Yeah, I I think I got it. Yeah. Okay, cool. So, what do y'all think? Well, I think it sounds like she worked really hard and did a lot of really great parenting to raise the kids for, you know, the st the the baseline needs of the kids, right?

But it also sounds like she is resentful and is putting undue pressure on the kids as as adults and they're reacting against it. Is it possible that the kids aren't appreciative of enough? You know, maybe. But I've had many conversations with parents that that's what parenting is. It's it's giving and not a lot of getting. And that's why it's important to have your own support system as a parent to have your people that can turn to you and say, "That was a good job you just did there." Or, "You're a wonderful parent." because hoping that

your children will say that even when they're young adults is a fool's errand. Okay, Michaela, thoughts? Yeah, I mean, ouch is my first thought. Um but I I think uh beyond that the feeling of kind of like loss, disappointment, um feeling so unappreciated unappreciated. Um, it sounds like there's a huge missing piece that the mom's the mom's experience was one way and she was so focused on all the needs that she did meet and it sounds like there are things that the kids feel maybe weren't met. And I think the there's not going to be

any rebuilding of a relationship while those pieces are missing. Um, and then, and this is actually like a really classic parent move is like going in for I just want the big ticket items, right? It's not I don't want the little day-to-day stuff. I want, you know, when kids are little, it's I want the sex, drugs, and rock and roll. I don't care about the Minecraft and the YouTube and the Kardashians, right? But, uh, the little things are what build the trust to get to the big things. And so waiting for just the holidays to

connect is uh an expectation that's fraught with disappointment. I think um compared to you know starting by sending little memes uh or pictures of your day-to-day life. Look at this flower I saw. It reminded me of that time. Um and building little things from there to get to more meaningful conversations and relationships. Okay, cool. So, anything um you want to add, Dr. Honda? Should we turn it over? Like, do you all want to discuss further? Are there particular like questions that y'all would ask? Like, how would you approach someone like let's actually let me ask

you this. How would y'all approach someone who comes in and says this kind of stuff? Well, it would be dependent on what she was hiring me for. If she just wanted to explore, invent, and get support, then that's one approach that I would have, which, you know, I I would listen. I wouldn't be super focused on confronting things like the way she describes it. I wouldn't be surprised if the adult children would describe their mother as having a lot of problems. Uh it's just a guess. I can't know that. But the way she talks, it

it seems likely that it wasn't just that she was a sacrificial good mom who has unappreciative kids. It sounds like she's got something going on there. Maybe it's justified. Um, but the kids are have been dealing with it their whole lives to some extent. Sounds like. I don't know. But if she's just looking for support, then I I wouldn't be uh uh prioritizing that confrontation. But if she were saying, "I want in a few sessions to figure out a way to approach my kids that will set me up for closeness and less resentment," then I

might have to ask questions along the lines of, "Well, what would they say if they were here?" Uh, what sort of complaints do they have about you? Aside from that, you're wanting appreciation and and they're not ready to give it because that kind of repair work uh would, you know, be necessary for her to be fulfilled in that way, which, you know, I applaud her. You know, uh she wants closeness with her family. And I'm guessing her kids want that, too. And that's where, you know, family therapists come in. Cool. So, what we're going to

do, I'm going to um Oh, okay. Okay. So, I'm going to go ahead and copy paste this. I'm going to put it in the chat GPT. I swear we will fix these overlays in just a second. So, I'm going to Oh, hold on. Nope. There. Does this work? Oh my god. Why isn't this Okay, I think I know what the problem is. Give me a second. I'm going to have to use a Let's use Firefox chat GPT. And then maybe I can do this. And then we are trying to figure Oh, that's so weird. Some

of y'all are disappearing. Some some of y'all aren't. Okay, now we're back. Um, all right. So, here's what start now. So, I'm going to just put this into chat GPT and I will I think I will try to Okay, this is what we're going to do. We're going to swap a little bit. I'm gonna have to remove your faces for a second and then I will Oh, yeah. Screen share chatgpt. Nope. Where's the here so that y'all can see? Okay. And then we'll just have to Oh, this is working. So, Oh, wow. Okay. This is

really weird. I'm going to just do browser plus chat so we can see chat. Okay. So, you you all can see the chat GPT answer. Yep. Okay. So, I'll read it aloud. First, thank you for sharing this. What you've experienced being a single parent raising your children through tremendous sacrifice and now feeling distanced from them is deeply human and profoundly painful. You're not alone in this, though it might feel like it right now. Let's unpack a few layers gently and with care. Your love was and is real. You clearly gave everything you had to raise

your kids. Time, energy, career, your own needs. Making them breakfast every morning while working two jobs. Those are acts of love that speak volumes. That doesn't vanish with time, even if your children doesn't don't always see it right now. But it's also important to recognize that love and sacrifice don't always translate into closeness later. Adult children, especially if they felt like their emotional needs were sometimes un unmet, might still carry complex feelings even if they recognize and respect your efforts. The risk little passive confrontation there. What does that mean? Uh, you know, especially if it

if they felt like their emotional needs weren't being met. Okay. I I don't know if the AI is slipping that in there in a soft way. I don't know. I mean, that that's what it sounds like to me. I don't know if I'm just reading into Cool. which could be a good idea, you know. I'm not Yeah. Yeah. Um the the the risk of guilt. You mentioned that they say you're always making them feel guilty and that this surprised you, but from your perspective, you're simply sharing how important they've been to your life. But here's

the hard truth. Telling them how central they were and how much it hurts that they're not there anymore can feel like emotional pressure to them. even if that's not your intention. They may feel that their autonomy or choices are being judged or that their love is being questioned unless they prove it in a certain way. When adult children feel guilt tripped even unintentionally, they can often pull away not because they don't care but because they feel overwhelmed, cornered, or like they can't win emotionally. Number three, what adult children often need. Your children are like likely

trying to establish their own identities, boundaries, and lives. In their eyes, freedom and emotional safety are essential. not as a rejection of you, but as a step in their own growth. Even if you were a wonderful parent, they may need space to figure out who they are outside of the parent child dynamic. Paradoxically, the more more emotionally non-demanding and open you are, the more they feel free to return. That's hard when you're hurting, but it can be healing. Rebuilding the the bridge, not rehashing the past. Here are a few practical, compassionate ways to move forward.

Shift from what I did for you to what I hope we can share now. Ask for their perspective. Instead of telling them how hurt they they've hurt you, you might say, "I'd love to understand how you're feeling about our relationship lately. I know things have changed and I'd like to know what it's been like for you." Validate, then express. You could say, "I understand you're building your own life and I'm proud of you for that. I miss you and I'd love to find a way to stay close that works for both of us." Offer without

expectations. No pressure. I just wanted to say, "I'm thinking of you and hope you're doing well. Let me know if there's a good time to catch up sometime." healing the inner loneliness. You've poured so much into being a parent and it's also also time to tend to you now. This kind of emotional shift is a loss and grief is natural. A therapist or support group for empty nesters or single parents in later life might help you process that that grief and rebuild a center a life that centers your centers your own joy too, but not

just your role as a parent. and then hope connection can be rebuilt blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Okay, what do y'all think about Chat GPT's answer? I mean, I like it, but if it were that easy, then we wouldn't have jobs. Uh well, maybe that's why we're here. Maybe it is that easy. What do you think? I don't think it's that easy. the the way the way that she I can't know. But the way that she sounds, it sounds way more complicated than simply a suggestion like that. Um the the few suggestions in

there that I think are actually good and they were good. Um like asking how do you feel about our relationship lately? That kind of thing that you know instead of uh coming from her of like I need it to be this way. Um, I'm guessing that whatever led to the situation in which she is now somewhat distorting with her current perspective and complaint will prevent her from being able to even comprehend what that uh suggestion is suggesting. Cool. Michaela, what do you think? Yeah, I I I they're they're great suggestions and I also one of

the things I love about AI is how it opens so validatingly, right? Like so the first thing AI said was like, "Oh my god, I'm so sorry, girl. Like that hurts, right?" Which is like, "Yeah, good. Good job." Um and in a way that kind of seemed like those are words that another human might use. um might feel like connecting. Um I just I think you know Dr. Honda really hit it out of the park with the like we are understanding those those responses and that like kind of perspective in one way but kind of

by definition a person who's having some of these questions um is going to either maybe fully reject like oh you just don't understand me um or is going to be like oh yes I'm going to ask them how they feel about our relationship and then I'm going to actually continue my pattern of responding that is why we have a trouble in this relationship. ship in the beginning. Okay. So, I don't know if people caught that. So, I I So, so now I'm going to give you all So, I I I love what you said. I'm

going to try to translate it a little bit, right? So, the pattern of responding. So, here here's the way that I would explain that to people who are like like listening. Um Oh, no. It's Firefox. Okay. So, if if we look at Chat GPT for a second, chat GPT says like do this stuff, right? Chat GPT says ask for their perspective. It says validate then express. And then what this person I I I think what I hear Michaela kind of saying is that this person will do that once and then they'll go back to doing

whatever they've been doing for 56 years. Right? So I'll now I'll give you all some context for this case. So this case is a patient of mine I wrote up looked at my original notes from uh 8 years ago when this person was referred to me in outpatient clinic. So, here's what's really interesting. This is a 56-year-old woman who was referred from a support group for parents of empty nesters to individual therapy. Okay. So, when we add this context, I see both y'all are laughing. What does that mean to you? Well, it kind of means

what we were saying is that the problem runs deeper than even she's presenting. Okay. And if y'all like I know this is super hard. We don't have enough information, but just gut check. If I had to slap a diagnosis on this person, what do y'all think it is? Diagnosis. I know. I know. It's weird. So, like this person comes to my office, we do some work, I start billing for something at some point, and then after a few weeks, I sort of settle on a diagnos. Does anything come like jump? I think y'all are We'll

get to this in a second, but I mean the the judgiest thought in my mind that I'm trying to not say is a personality disorder. Very good. Which one? Mo most likely narcissistic personality disorder. Spot on. So, this was a 56-year-old woman who got referred to me who has raging NPD. Like raging NPD. Yeah. completely unaware of what she can just see her sacrifices. She doesn't understand what the like it's so funny because like what you called Michaela is actually like exactly what happened. So we like talked about this, right? Like oh like let's understand

your child's perspective. So she like went through the motions is the way that I would describing and not didn't really listen. She's like okay in order to like fix this and get my kids to come I need to just validate them. So she would validate but really didn't tackle like because like then what would happen is she'd be sort of like entitled and she'd say like okay I validated people now they should do what I want. I don't understand. I did what I'm supposed to do. Like I I don't understand. Right. Right. So what do

y'all think? So like this this is a case that that that you know was literally like I looked at my notes for like chief complaint and like what I was jotting down and and what do y'all think about that? like well I mean I think that's the d that's the danger with the AI is it provide or not danger um that's a limitation of AI it provided a checklist and so you know she was like look I checked the boxes why haven't I gotten my outcome yet but emotional connection relationship work healing um we again

if we could just check boxes none of us would have had jobs long before AI Right. Yeah. Kirk thoughts. Yeah. Um I think that if someone of that profile were to use chat GPT, given its I think imposed guard rails by the designers to make it positive and reaffirming, it could make NPD worse. Yeah. Yeah. So, I I thought it was really interesting how you even cited out like the the soft challenge, right? So, you like like you kind of said, you know, like I I think it was this line over here. Um which is

even if but sometimes if they're you know, especially if their needs haven't been met, you know, it doesn't say Yeah. Right. I'm detecting your you didn't meet your kids needs. Yeah. Right. So I I I think that was like a really good catch and and I think um you know I heard uh coded language from Michaela too about um you you said missing reasons that was in your first response. Yeah. Missing pieces. Yeah. Right. So missing pieces is like really good for like I I I've I mean I think about that as code for like

oftenimes narcissism or personality disorder. when someone when someone says like, "Oh, like the world is falling apart and I'm I I did everything right and they don't understand me or whatever, like I I thought that was like a really like internally I was really happy because I was I I wasn't sure how y'all were going to take this case." Um, and I wasn't sure how ChatP was going to take it, but I I think we see a little bit of soft challenging. I think um yeah, so that that's cool. You all want to discuss more?

Should we move on to the next one? I'm ready for the next one. Okay, cool. I'm going to do this. I know this is like these overlays are a bit tricky. Um, so here's the next one. So, I need to screen share this with y'all. I will say that I am impressed with the at least what AI can provide. That response was uh Oh, God. You know, not horrible. Yeah. No, I I I thought the response was really good. Uh, wait. I just don't think it would have been helpful to the person. Um, okay. Let's

do um let's do this one. Okay, so this one uh I'll give you So, we're not going to give you all context quite yet. So, I'm not here to be inflammatory. I'm here because I've done the work. I've sat in the chairs. I've opened the wounds. I've told the stories. I've journaled. I've cried. I've named every part of my pain. I've done CBT, DBT, ACT, IFS, EMDR, sematic work, trauma focused therapy, you name it. And I'm still exactly where I was. I'm still choking on the same needs, trapped in the same obsessions, haunted by the

same hunger that's never been fed, not even a little. And I don't think that's a personal failure. I think therapy at its core might be might just be [ __ ] Not some therapists are bad or not every modality works for everyone. I mean the whole premise of therapy, this idea that insight understanding or witnessing your pain somehow changes it. I don't believe that anymore. I think it's a a lie we tell ourselves because the alternative that nothing works is too terrifying to face. Therapists love to talk about being seen and held and validated. They

say that if you name the need, sit with the grief, stay with the inner child, then transformation will happen. But what if it doesn't? What if some needs, especially the deep, traumatic, lifelong ones, just don't go away, no matter how much you understand them? What if naming your hunger doesn't feed you? I've had people tell me, "I'm resistant or not ready or haven't found the right fit. But maybe the fit doesn't exist. Maybe the model itself is flawed. Maybe therapy only works for people whose pain was already going to get better with time, people who

simply had a perception of a perception problem or whose needs were never truly unmeable to begin with. I'm not saying this to be edgy. I'm saying it because I've watched years of my life disappear chasing a promise that never delivered. And I can't be the only one. So, if you're out there, if you've done the work and still feel hollow, if therapy felt like theater with no resolution, if insight just meant watching yourself bleed in higher definition, talk to me. I'm not looking for hope. I'm looking for truth. What happens after we admit that therapy

doesn't work for everyone? Thoughts? Uh yeah, I agree. uh therapy can't solve all problems. Um I mean there's some uh specifics in there that I could debate, but the general gist of I'm still suffering regardless perhaps even of even having uh having competent therapy by competent therapists. And if the cultural idea or even the notion from therapists has been that therapy can solve all your problems and give you complete happiness, then that's false. Of course, uh life is suffering. Um there are things that absolutely suck about existence, particularly for some people, and there's nothing that's

going to take that away. And I have to say this that therapists are some of the best people to understand that hopefully anyway that uh we live and that we uh you know it's one of the things that I always have to help my trainee get over which is that they're going to be able to solve everyone's problems very quickly and they get very demoralized and upset and shameful when they have clients after six months or even six years who are still suffering. you know, they and I have to say whatever cultural notion you were

told that that would be different was false. And so, uh, purge yourself and adopt a new paradigm. Um, you know, I'll even ask them, you've been to a lot of therapy. Is your life perfect? They'll be like, no. I'll say, well, then we can't expect anyone to be that way. So, I I uh my if this if this person came to me clinically, I would say, I'm I'm there with you, and I agree. I've been to therapy a lot, too. And there are still things about life that are absolutely horrible. And I uh wish that

something could take it away, but apparently the way the universe is set up, that's just not going to happen. Okay, Michaela, thoughts? I'm going to say anytime somebody opens with I'm not here to be inflammatory. Usually that's a sign that I am maybe actually that's what I'm I'm doing. I I think uh just to kind of I actually totally agree with everything that uh Dr. Honda has said of the like yeah life is life sucks sometimes, right? Um, and I'm going to point out some red flags as a therapist that I'm noticing in in the

kind of uh post, right? I've tried and then lists like all the different types of treatment that they've tried. Um, like how how how much did you try, how long were you in those treatments? Um, a bunch of those treatments are extremely uh evidence-based, high supportive, and yes, they don't they don't help everybody. And and therapy is never going to make your life perfect, right? It simply makes it so that uh you are able to cope with like the problems and the stressors and the shitty the times that come your way much with less suffering.

Right? We talk about like pain versus suffering. Like pain exists. suffering happens kind of when when you refuse to accept some of that pain and do things to make it worse. Um, and so I think it sounds like there's a really big perspective gap. I'm really interested to see what chat GBT says about this one. uh because I think you tried everything but how if you go into any any change practice with the perspective this is not going to work you are absolutely right nothing will help you if you believe nothing will help you um

and and so I I wonder like how often has that actually been targeted um and how long were you able to maintain commitment to treatment but also like take a egg girl. I mean, non-gender specific term. Um, like that's a lot of therapy. So, did you just do backto backto back treatment for years and years and years and years? That's fatigue. Um, at some point even pleasurable things. If you do it too much, it's problematic. It becomes painful. It becomes less helpful. So, I think there's there's just so many different pieces in there to to

identify and unpack. if we had a more time. Yeah. So, so this one um I guess I I have a couple thoughts about this one too which I'm I'm gonna comment because this is not a patient of mine. Um we'll show you all the where this comes from after we ask chat chat JBT. So when I hear things like this, so this is something that this is pretty classic actually for referrals that I would get. So I was sort of like focused on evidence-based complimentary alternative medicine, which means I got like two kinds of patients

very commonly. The first was people who didn't want to see like a regular psychiatrist and didn't want medication and wanted to do things the natural way. And the second was I would get like basically treatment refractory referrals. So people who had been through like the Mass General Harvard Medical School system MLAN and then like they would like they're like okay like none of this [ __ ] works like why don't you guys like try this guy who does like yoga and meditation and see if that helps. So I I would echo a lot of what

um you both y'all said, right? So like I I think Dr. Honda and this is why I love talking to you all. So the first thing that I'm appreciating is like how different all three of us are and how we all like don't miss certain things, right? So I think I think it's like I was I was highly suspicious of like I mean the first case there was a bias because I knew the patient I was looking at my original notes before I had too much bias but the first time that I met her I

was like this smells a little bit like [ __ ] and so and I it's it's interesting because I I love Dr. Honda because I I feel like you're warm in a way that I'm not like I I love that about you and and I I I love Dr. Thorderson's gut. like she's like, "This is what my gut is going to say." Right? So, not trying to be inflammatory. Like there's like I I love because I I think that's really there's a lot a ton of insight. So, I love how we're kind of all on

the same page. Dr. Han is kind of saying life is suffering. Dr. Michaela's talking about that, too. Both you all mentioned that like, you know, the goal of therapy is not to be perfect. I I would say that, you know, this person it seems like hasn't gotten better at all. Like, forget about perfection. It's that nothing has helped even 1%. Um I also tend to agree that I I know this is kind of hard. So what's the common element here? The common element is the patient, right? So this is something that we don't usually say.

So like when I date 15 people and break up that and none of it works, I don't find love and then I say oh like romance doesn't work. Right? Right? So if we take any other situation where I've tried a bunch of stuff, I've tried everything. I've tried to find jobs. I've had 15 jobs. It never works out. Nothing has ever worked for me. Jobs don't work. So I think there's a bias that we often times we think as therapists, we know this, but we never say this out loud, which is sometimes the patient is

at fault. Um a and so oftentimes what I'll what I'll do as a clinician if someone has tried something 15 times, what's the common element? I try to think about the patient's contribution which I I think y'all are leaning into as well. So like Dr. Thorerson said there's like the noibo effect, right? So if a patient comes into me because the first thing I try to do when people like that come to me is like disabuse them of the notion that I can help them because there's this whole like magic I I see a lot

of magic bullet syndrome is what I would call it which is like I want the thing that will there's one thing that will fix me and I'm looking for that thing to fix me. It is in their s search for the perfection that they are actually like shooting themselves in the foot because therapy is not about finding the answer and y'all alluded to that too, right? It's not going to fix everything. I it's about like how can I improve by 5% and 5% and 5%. And I think if the person is looking for the answer,

they're looking for the messiah, they're primed to be disappointed. And then you get into the situation where like disappointment, failure of therapy number one, failure of therapy number two, failure of therapy number three. Now I have a a priority conclusion or it's not a priority, it's it's they've had experience that therapy doesn't work. Now they carry that noibo effect into the next therapy. That's kind of my take. Do y'all uh should we jump to chatt or do y'all want to think like do you all want to comment about how you would approach this person? What

are y'all thinking? How are y'all feeling? Uh well, I kind of answered that uh I think. Okay. Right. U in that I would be with them and if they wanted to decide that therapy sucks and they wanted to try other things, then I would, you know, I'd be okay with that. I I'm not going to defend my profession and I've been in that position before. I I don't have any interest in convincing people that therapy is for them. Okay, great. I mean, often times when we see profiles like this, um the the like uh the

number one thing to be able to get to readiness for change typically seems to be like this person seems to be uh like starved for actually validation. And it seems like they haven't yet found sufficient authentic validation that anybody actually understands the level of pain. And kind of at the end of that post where they're like, I'm not looking for answers. I'm looking for truth. And I what that says to me is like I'm looking for other people to say, yeah, I'm in this. I'm I'm at that same level. And that's really kind of what

you said um Dr. about like how yeah I'm here in this with you is like you can't come at that person with well have you tried because they'll be like yeah I did look at all the things I tried and so you know we know that like okay I'm not going to throw anything else at you I'm going to really sit here and say yes where you are and all the things you've been through sucks um and then wait for them to say you know give the indication okay now I'm ready you you actually do

get me you you've heard heard what I've done, you've heard how unhelpful it is. Now, maybe you you might give me some ideas. A lot of times they then say, "No, that won't work." You're like, "Okay, well, if that won't work, then I I got nothing for you." Yeah. Um Yeah, that's great. I mean, I I I think I I came across in retrospect as like somewhat blaming. But I I think that oftentimes the first thing that I will do is the same thing that y'all are saying, which is like, look, if all these other

people haven't been able to help you, I don't think I can either. like I'm not the magic bullet. And interestingly enough, and then the question becomes, even if I don't think I can fix you, I'm willing to try and see how far we can get. Are you willing to give it another shot? And let's see where we can end up. Um and and so let's see what chat GPT says. Okay, I got a screen share with y'all, too. While you're pulling that up, um I don't know that you sounded blamy. Okay. I I think it's

important to kind of call out and I think that's one of the things that we get stuck on as therapists is we don't call that out because we don't want to be like, "Oh, I don't want to say you're the problem, but it's it's not you that are the problem. It's the pattern of behaviors that you've developed in response to what sounds like a lot of terrible things that have happened to you in your life. Thank you." Okay. So, here's the answer. So, uh or here's what chat says. What you've written is raw, searingly honest,

and deeply human. You're not alone in this. And you're not being inflammatory. You're articulating something that many people feel but rarely say out loud, especially with this level of clarity and depth. There's a quiet cohort out there. People who have done the work, have followed the map, and found the destination was either missing or never real to begin with. So, let's talk about truth. Therapy isn't a universal key. You're right. Therapy doesn't work for everyone. And it's not because you failed or didn't try hard enough or weren't ready. The narrative of resistance, unreiness or not

having the right modality is often used to preserve the faith in therapy itself. It shifts the blame to the individual instead of questioning the system or model. But therapy I don't I don't like that sentence at all. Often used uh to preserve faith. I mean it can be for sure, but that's not a great sentence. Okay, thanks for jumping in. But therapy No, no, no. I I think it's better as opposed to me just reading a wall of text. What do you not like about that sentence? Well, it's saying that uh uh generally speaking, therapists

when using terms like resistance or unreadiness or haven't found the right that it's of well I guess often is to me that sounds like a lot of times right uh but I guess often could be interpreted as a small minority I suppose but uh but used to preserve faith in therapy you know it's this notion that therapists are this you know, this feedback loop of we create clients, you know, and brainwash them to know think that we're useful, so we charge them money, you know, this notion of, you know, victim mentality and and that sort

of thing. I don't know. It just has that kind of language to it. So, so, so I I I think I I I agree with you and I think that like I was like Michaela said, I wasn't really blaming, but I I I think that, so, so there's a counterpoint that I would make, which is the narrative that resistance is not real is what allows people who are highly resistant to maintain their unhealthy patterns. Right? So I I I think that like I I I I think that that that's often times what happens, right? So

this person is getting information from multiple therapists that there is resistance here and we know that as therapists like resistance is something that we have to work to overcome, right? And and so and but I'm I'm kind of with Chachi PT2 because I think that I have seen too many cases of ineffective the in my opinion ineffective therapists using resistance as an excuse for subpar clinical care. Absolutely right. So I I see it both ways and I'm I'm 100% sure that I've been in that camp myself that like because we love to blame the patients,

right? We love to say like, "Oh, this person wasn't ready." I have a number of traumatic stories from my own clinical career. Um patients that have come to me from other clinicians and when I get collateral information, it's like an absolute mess. Um but let's keep going. Michaela, feel like feel free to jump in if you feel like it. Okay. Yeah. I was like, "Okay, I got to see what's the next step." Because like this cannot be, you know, if I could read ahead, I'd be I want to know what they're going to say next.

Sure. But therapy, like any human-made system, is fallible. Its core assumption that naming, witnessing, and understanding will transform suffering is philosophical, not empirical. In some cases, it does help, but in others, especially with lifelong attachment-based or existential wounds, it may not touch the real source of pain, let alone resolve it. Some needs are unmeable. This is a brutal grief soaked truth. Some needs really don't get met. Not in childhood, not in adulthood, not in therapy. The need to have always been loved, to have never been harmed, to have had safety, then those can't be retrofitted.

Therapy often tries to create symbolic reparations, but symbolism isn't sustenance. And sometimes the hunger is too deep for metaphors. Insight can become its own cage. Understanding yourself, your patterns, your wounds can that can be illuminating. Yes. But it can also become voyerism. Endlessly watching your pain unfold without being able to touch it, change it, or escape it. It's like having emo an emotional x-ray vision, but no tools to set the bones. Insight without action is often named as the problem. But even with action, some people still find themselves stuck because some pain doesn't respond to

logic or to practice or to process. Some pain just is. and therapy's promise that presence alone transforms can feel like gaslighting when nothing changes. So, so just to be clear, do you all read this as like a direct contradiction right here? Some pain just is that presence alone transforms. Do you all do you all get that from here or not really? Do you I don't even understand what presence alone transforms. Yeah, this this number three is a jumble of of random words to me. Okay, I don't understand what it's trying to say. Understanding yourself, your

patterns, your wounds. That can be illuminating, but it can become voyerism. Voyerism from Voyerism on the self or voyerism from the therapist. Who's voyer? Who's who's the voyer? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, what do you think? What do you think it's it's saying, you know? So, so I compiling language from other people. So, I'm trying to Absolutely. So, so I I I I think I here's the way that I understand it, but I think y'all are pointing out a pretty big weakness of this, which is that um you know, so I was reading about a

chat. I was reading about a LLM building a novel and there's a scene in the novel where someone is training and training with a training dummy with a sword. Are y'all familiar with like what a training dummy is? Mhm. And the training dummy parries the attack from the person who's you using the sword. Do y'all Does that make any sense to you? I don't know if like the example I mean I understand the example but like obviously a training dummy can't parry exactly right. So I I think that's what y'all are picking up here is

that presence alone transforms sounds really good but what does it mean? It's not clear. So okay, but also any therapist I'm I'm sorry any therapist who says coming to therapy in and of itself. So that's let me just try to extrapolate from presence alone transforms is going to be the game changer like that just no you just attending a therapy appointment for one hour a week or god forbid you get a therapist that you're doing the like two hours a day 5 days a week vibe right like that is not going to make the changes

okay what what is going to make the changes depends what they're coming in for. Yeah. I mean, now we're like the this is the you have to find the mechanisms of action which vary by condition. Um I think the other thing is like we have no quality control in our field. So we actually don't know that this person has ever had competent therapy. Um they may have been repeatedly sold a bill of goods uh about how they're getting all these different things. And some of the treatments listed can actually are shown to be actively harmful

if done improperly. Like um like EMDR in particular. Um there's some really scary literature about people who are not fully trained in EMDR who are just picking up some of the techniques and applying them and causing uh increased emotional harm to people. Okay. Right. Yeah. I I wanted to say that earlier, but uh but I I don't know why I just was worried to say it, but thanks for saying it. There's a lot of bad therapists out there. So, there's a there's a possible world in which this individual is not resistant, is absolutely ready to

change, is absolutely trying and doing all the things, and yet they've just come across like eight bad therapists. Yeah. So, I I I think that I kind of agree with all of y'all. Let me get through the rest of it and then let's I mean, feel free to jump in if y'all have like if something if you'all want to say something because I think that's really great. But I'm going to hold my comments for a minute and just get through this. Um, grief may be the end point, not the beginning. Maybe the final truth isn't

transformation, but mourning. And what comes after the work is not healing, but a cleareyed grief. the acceptance that some wounds don't close, that some hungers don't get fed, that some holes in the soul stay holes. That isn't giving up. It's refusing to chase false hope. It's choosing reality, even if it hurts more. Little thumbs up on number four. Um, community might matter more than therapy. One thing therapy can't always give you is the real relational nourishment it gestures gestures towards. No matter how attuned the therapist, the relationship is asymmetrical, bounded by time, money, ethics, and

roles. And for those who whose pain stems from deep relational deprivation, therapy might only mirror what's missing rather than fulfilling it. Some people find more healing in peer spaces, in mutual witnessing, in art, activism, chosen family, rage, wilderness, and silence. In things that aren't trying to fix them, just hold them without agenda. You asked what happens after we admit that therapy doesn't work for everyone. We grieve. We stop gaslighting ourselves. We name what's real even if it's unbearable. And maybe in truth some something uh different starts. Not not hope maybe, but honesty, solid ground. The

kind that doesn't promise anything, but doesn't lie either. You're not broken. You're not failing. You're just facing something too big for the tools you were given. That's not your fault. And yeah, there are more of you out there than you think. What do y'all think? Yeah, I think overall it's probably I mean I I you know, who knows? We'd have to ask the individual who was posting that or saying that if that response from chat GBT was helpful, but I could imagine that being, you know, exactly what they needed to hear in that moment. I

don't know how useful it would be, but I could imagine that. I was worried that actually chat GBT would say, "I'm going to recommend this other type of therapy that you haven't tried and that that would be invalidating, but they didn't." So, that was good. Michaela, thoughts? I like the last two points much better than the first bit. Um, ironically, um, I was actually having this conversation last night, um, with some friends. it that like the final recommendation about like maybe finding community is more important than therapy. What the recommendation is saying in my opinion

is like go live therapy instead of thinking that therapy is going to be delivered in an office. So in other words, go go do the things, find the connections, feed your values, which is a act if he had this person had gotten effective act um and the the pain lessens. It doesn't go away. But when you are living a life that you know connects with the things that matter to you, then the it feels better. Yeah. So what I thought was like really interesting about this response is first of all like I I think it's

interesting that you know both you all said and then chat GPT also said like therapy isn't a fix for everything like sometimes there like pain is an unavoidable part of life. Um, and then I think it's really interesting because this sounds a lot like act, right? So, so it's like it's basically doing act, but it's saying act is shitty, act doesn't work, therapy doesn't work, and then it's doing act. So, so like I I it's so so I I I think what chat GPT is really good at, right? And I think some of the the

word salad when you're in this cognitive space of I'm not looking for answers. I'm looking for truth, you know, and chat is like, oh, like what I don't know what that I don't I don't know what that means. You know, like I think there's a lot of weird perspective that I would love to dig into with this patient. Like what does that mean to you that you're looking for truth? Like do you think truth is real? Do you think you haven't found truth? Like you know what what's going on there? Um but then then chat

GPT just really like matches that energy, right? Like it matches it so well. Yeah, that part is a little bit creepy like how the linguistic matching really at and not like a hammer over the head but really kind of like subtly woven through and that conclusion at the end. Okay. Yeah. It it feels really good, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I I think what's really scary about that is that someone will listen read that and feel really good about it. I don't know that and I this is what I liked, right? Cuz the chat is saying

like maybe you need to form more social connections and things like that. I thought it was also interesting that it thinks that there's like a deep relational or attachment issue at the core of this. I don't know if you guys picked up on that. So that I thought was like a pretty cool insight. Like maybe that's what's going you know I don't think it's off base there. That's definitely something I would want to explore. Um, so here's what I want to share with y'all. I'm going to just read something out loud. I don't want to

um, so this is this is a a post from our subreddit and we're trying to keep I mean the person posted publicly so hopefully this is okay. Um, but sometimes we react to things on our subreddit. So someone in so someone in our community gave this response. Okay, so this is like the post that we put that I gave to you all is exactly we put in Chach and then one a member of our community responded with this. I think your problem is probably that so much of your selfidentity comes from being being broken or

unfixable that the thought of actually moving on and healing is subconsciously terrifying for you. So you subtly resist any movement towards healing or closure because it's more comfortable for you to embrace the narrative of internal suffering than to try to conceive of a life without it. Okay, this is not Chachi. This is just some random person from our community. And here's the original poster's response. You're right about one thing. I am terrified of moving on, but not because I want to suffer or because being broken feels safe. I'm terrified because moving on feels like being

told to give up on the only thing that's ever felt real. This isn't about comfort and pain. It's about pain that comes from meaning. You don't tell a starving person they're resisting nourishment. You don't tell someone dying of thirst that they're addicted to needing water. What I want isn't to be broken. What I want is the thing that would fix it. And every time someone tells me to let go of that need, it feels like they're asking me to amputate the last piece of myself that still knows what wholeness would look like. So no, I'm

not resisting healing. I'm resisting pretending that a life without that need met would ever be heal ever feel like healing at all. Any thoughts about that? Uh extremely insightful. The original post was alluding to what seems to be attachment deprivation and um meaning and and purpose and that followup uh is extremely articulate and um insightful and valuing of their own pain. And it's something that a lot of people suffer from but can't put into words or don't know or don't feel okay to share. So very insightful and healthy to to say. Thoughts. Michaela. I still

have a question about the the need the hung like that's like telling a thirsty person a person dying of thirst that they just need to stop wanting water. Because I I think there's this like paradox of no, we're not saying you have to give up on water. We're saying you have to stop being thirsty if you're going to have water. And that's if you you know what I mean? Like then you won't be a thirsty person. And that what does that even mean, right? Like what what world what does the world look like if everything

you do is not through the lens of where am I going to find a sip of water? And so I I think that but without knowing what is the need and you know thinking about how chat GPT pointed out like if your need is to have never been hurt you are right that is a need that will go unmet for the rest of your life because we don't have like a you know command Z undo function. Uh, but I I think it sounds like the person also the responder, whoever added that like response, I think

that was a a very appropriately savage response to kind of offer that perspective. Um, which is one of the reasons I just really love the healthy gamer community is that people are so open. I I love it too. And I I think that like you you know I was a little bit concerned anytime I share something that someone posts on our subreddit. I'm concerned about their being witness to us like ravaging their you know public disclosure. I hope I think the reason that we choose to do it is because I think like so many people

can relate to that. Right. So I I've seen um and I was thinking about like making a video about like how ineffective therapy can be. And and despite the fact that, you know, I disagree with some of Chat GPT's framing like so I think I I agree with Dr. Honda sort of with the way that he was sort of saying like hold on a second is often so I I think that there's like there's a reason why therapy is regarded as the gold standard of treatment. Right? So originally chat GPT is right. It was like

philosophical. Where did the idea of once a week of therapy come from? I don't think there was ever like no one sat down and was like let's try once a week. Let's try twice a week. Let's make three cohorts of people. Let's do psychoanalysis four days a week. Let's do once you know it and it so a lot of that is historical and philosophical. But now we know that this stuff generally speaking is effective for most people. Now is it effective for everybody? Absolutely not. And I think we all have seen that the hard way

as therapists. So it's not that this person is doing everything wrong. But I I think the biggest thing that I'm really appreciating is that the big difference between chat GPT is if you ask it a question, you will get an answer. And what I'm noticing from y'all is that when we are presented with a case, we start with additional questions. We recognize fundamentally that finding an answer requires more information than we are originally given. And I loved Michaela's response of, okay, they said they did all these things, but hold on a second. doing those things

how long with who what's been the sequence the pattern the frequency the did you have two appointments and you said you tried EMDR because I've absolutely seen patients like that where when we take we've been trained in this right we take a detailed past psychiatric history how many therapists have you had what what what worked for you what didn't work for you and I think there's a lot of stuff here which which I I I love this person's like second so I I I love the characterization of savagely appropriate or appropriately savage, right? Like maybe

you're holding on to this too much and and then the person kind of says like I think you're right there, but it feels like I'm losing the last part. And what I what I see right there is resistance. They don't want to let this part go. This is the part that's holding them back. The the sense of feeling broken and and the pain and the like I don't know exactly what they mean, but like that's what they're holding on to. And if they hold on to that piece because it feels like amputating everything, then I

would imagine that this person would struggle a lot, right? Because they they're not they're trying to not let go. Then the question kind of becomes, at least for me, what makes that so hard to let go? And how do we amputate that which is left and then be reborn a phoenix from the ashes? You know, like that's like that's kind of like the that's my validating energy. And it's like let's do it. like let's you know like let's explore chopping it off and then really leaving this old you behind because I think the answer like

the the route to that answer is like right there but anyway thoughts you all want to move on to the next one I mean there's a there's a metaphor in DBT about how um progress in therapy is essentially like climbing out of hell on a metal ladder And like every step along the way, you are burning your hands. And so it is like excruciating. You're describing a phoenix, right? Is like you are burning pieces of yourself away. And you have to wander through the fire to get out. And what if you've been wandering for so

long, you no longer believe there is an out? So it it is in some ways safer to just stay right here because I know where I am and I know I can at least tolerate this. And so I think that's just like such a visceral metaphor of like that can be validating that like hey every step along the way is going to be horrifying um because you're being asked to let go of these big kind of pieces of yourself even though they're also harmful pieces of yourself. Great. Kirk, any last thoughts before we move on?

Uh, it really just depends on what they're suffering from. Is it disorganized attachment? Is it loneliness? Is it depression? Is it anxiety? Is it oppression? Is it abuse? Is it trauma? You know, it's uh that was not u specifically identified. So it could really change at least I'm sure all of our responses if we knew what the answer to that question was. Yeah. So I I think that's that's a really interesting point. We I think we kind of touched on this but like I'd like to echo again. So this person says, "I tried all the

treatments. We don't see any presence of a diagnosis, right? So like hold on a second. What are we trying to treat here?" Right? And just just the simplicity. It's it's kind of interesting because when I go back to like the chat GPT response, right? That third point about that presence transforms. I I sort of like this is the kind of thing where if I like do some gymnastics, I can understand I can see a way that that makes sense, but it's not clear to me that that's actually what it's saying, right? It's not even intending

to say anything. It's just putting words together that sound really good. Well, it's funny, you know, as a side note, it shows that the way in which we or people on the internet tend to talk about these topics can be a little amorphous and possibly uh jumbled. Yeah. So, it's reflecting that and Okay, so let's let's Great thought. Let me just um I'm having some I'm on the struggle bus here with my um Okay. No, we're going to close this. Here's the response. And then I want to go here. Okay, here we go. Okay, next

one. Um, so I'm going to try to I wonder if this will Okay, so I people Oh, is this the right one? Yes. Nope. I'm going to do this. All right, chat. Dr. K is figuring it out. Okay. I see people all around me be so happy and here I am being miserable AF. I usually try to keep my emotions repressed throughout the day, but some mundane things just trigger my repressed sadness. Last Friday, I was walking home from work when I saw a group of 10ish people sitting on the curbside eating expensive burgers. They're

all happy just eating their burgers, sharing their stories, laughs, and fries with each other. I presume they're all from the same office and they all look like they're they they're paid well enough to live a good life. Well, they're out there enjoying and living the moment. I'm just here existing, wasting oxygen and food. When I get home, I just bathed and watched some Star Wars until I fell asleep. It just feels unfair that some people have it all when I get to drown in my misery after a day a long day of work just day

in and day out and I'm not even paid well enough. Sigh. Um, did you hack into my Reddit account or something? I don't know. I did. That sounds I think everyone's felt that before, right? It sounds like this person might have a more chronic experience of it. But yeah, there's nothing more aggravating when you're suffering and you see other people that look like they're not suffering is the key. They probably are suffering and might be even more so than you are. But it just it just feels so lonely and so and just so irritating that

other people are just uh or you know sometimes I'm angry at my dogs because they're not they don't know that Twitter exists. It's just like wouldn't it be nice to be you today you know? Uh so yeah uh I I hear everything that that person's saying. Michaela, what do you think? I mean, it sounds like pervasive depression is kind of the like I I can um Have you ever seen like those cartoons where that are imitating depression and it's like the person is walking around in like a grayscale world and then they can look at

the laughing people and they're in color but then they keep plotting through their own grayscale like life and I mean it just sounds a lot like depression. I think Kirk, you kind of like highlighted this, but it they seem happy, right? And I think this is actually one of the dangers of social media is that we look at snapshots of people's lives and it's like I I can't travel. I can't do all these incredible things. I can't go these places. My body doesn't look like that, you know, etc., etc. But you actually don't know how

miserable any of those people are or you don't know what pains they're going through or kind of their own experiences which further isolates you or enhances the depression experience and it just um yeah it just sounds very sad very sad and very lonely. Yeah. Very very painful. How would you all approach a patient like this who came into your office? uh dependent on what they were asking for help for. If if I assume they're asking to not feel that way and perhaps to have friend groups or fun and happiness ongoing, that is a very very

complicated treatment course. Uh in the beginning of my career, I recognized that it would be tough, but over the course of my career and making it an effort to try to establish a a a protocol or a way of assessing and treating loneliness in general, uh trying to because I would hear the same things from people and would uh often the first line of of interventions just would fall flat. that and you know things like ah just get out there or u you know let's address your shyness or social anxiety and after years of that

and no changes I'd just be like what else is going on here and of course you know there's trauma and personality and other kinds of neurode divergence this kind of thing but nothing just uh made it easy to uh assess and to treat and so uh I if someone were to come to me like this, I I would probably say what I just said to y'all. I'd just be like, um, you know, let's try to investigate this, figure out what the possible factors are so that we can address those. But I'm going to tell you

right off the bat that it might be hard to figure that out. And we might get a few factors and address those and get 50% down the road only to find that there's a blind spot there. and um you know uh let's just see what we can do. There's a lot of different things that we can try though and there are people that will find some success and for some people just a little tweak here and there actually will set things in motion and you have friends and and you have the same kind of problems

that everyone has. Even those the most popular person on the playground has problems you know and is insecure. uh it's not all fun and games but you know it is more fulfilling to have people that you know you can hang out with. So that would be my general approach. Yeah, excuse me. I think one of the things that uh we haven't kind of called out yet is that this post is more specifically alluding to is the the potentially very real limitations on resources. So, this person kind of identifies that the group of people that they're

kind of coveting or feeling envious of um is eating expensive burgers and looks like they get paid well enough to, you know, based on the way they're dressed. And so um you know if if a person is experiencing just very real limitations in access to things like they have restricted financial resources um not I mean money isn't the most important thing but you know the only people who actually think that are the people who have enough of it to get their basic needs met you know and so therapy doesn't treat financial deficits. In fact, therapy

actively contributes right to financial deficits, which I think is one of the opportunities that AI or other types of kind of more accessible, less costly um things can offer to people. Uh because I don't have to pay for I don't think you have to pay for chat GPT access at this point in time. Of course, you have to pay for internet or a cell phone or whatever, but um I I think there are some pieces of like how a therapist has to work really hard to help you figure out how are we going to get

you connected to people when you have to work 12 to 14 hour days, six days a week, and then you're just exhausted and you probably aren't that fun to be around on the one day off you have. Uh you know what I mean? Like so a therapist sometimes that's part of the problem solving or that's part of the treatment is like how do we recognize the very real barriers you're h you have and then still try to find a way around which as I think Dr. Honda kind of mentioned is like sometimes that can take

years and sometimes we can't even get there uh cuz they can't keep coming back, right? Yeah. So, I I I I I like I'm How can I say this? I would love to share a patient with Dr. Honda because I think he does a really fantastic job of validating the difficulty and also like appropriately setting expectations that therapy is not a fix and this is going to be an uphill battle and I think we can help and I'm willing to try. So like I love that sometimes I've worked with people who will, you know, promise

their patients the moon and and think like, oh, like I know what's going on and and I I appreciate the complexity of it, which is I think something I we'll see what chat PT says. Maybe I should pause here, but and then also like I I I love this idea of maybe the one day that you do socialize when you're ground down to a nubb in from six days of work, you're not that fun to be around, you know, and I I I have a feeling that chat GPT will never say that to someone. and

and so you know like it'll never say like maybe you're just fried to a crisp by the weekend and then people don't cuz you're moody and whatever. But I think that that's the level of insight that we have to like admit like okay like is is this actually the case because then that is a problem that can be solved. Yeah, that was a good catch Dr. Tharderson because uh I didn't even pick up on that. I mean, I heard that specific line about like I'm not paid enough, but you actually picked up on the mention

of these purchases, right? The obser observation of the purchases. And uh as someone who hasn't for, you know, maybe since college worried about that kind of thing, I it just went over my head. Yeah. And I I think that's what's what's interesting, right, is I I don't think we're all the same. And that's that's what's so curious about like these different perspectives. And I think that data shows that arguably each of us will be equally effective, you know, even if we have these different and and and so that's what's so interesting. But let's let's see

let's see what the GPT says. Yeah. Okay. Um I'm going to Nope. I want to do this. Three heads are better than one. And maybe three heads with AI is even better. Okay. So I'm going to do this. Let's see what we get. GPT pogers. I'm going to guess it's going to give advice that's going to annoy me. Great. That that I mean the advice might be fine, but I I think it will totally be uh Okay, I'm good. Invalidating to the to the individual. Oh, I think it's going to be frustratingly validating, but but

also uh which will be great. I I think that'll be fine. That's safer. But if it starts saying um things like just get out there, you know, let's see. Okay. Okay. So, uh hey, thanks for opening up. What you're feeling is real. And I want to say upfront, you're not alone in this. It might feel like you're stuck in a quiet, isolated struggle while the world around you sparkles with joy and connection. But a lot more people relate to what you're going through than you might realize. That feeling, watching others laugh and bond while you

walk home with heaviness in your chest, is brutal. It's not just about burgers or laughter. It's about wanting to feel seen, connected, and life, and like your life means something more than just surviving. And repressing that every day just to keep functioning. That takes energy. Invisible, exhausting energy. There's something particularly painful about those snapshots of other people's happiness. It's like the world keeps holding up a mirror, showing you everything you're craving and everything that feels out of reach. And yeah, it does feel unfair, but it is in many ways. Life isn't handed out in even

proportions. But here's the thing. What you're going through isn't a sign that you're weak or failing or destined to be stuck. It's a sign that you're human and that your soul is crying out for something more than this rinse repeat grind. That awareness, while painful, is also the first flickering step towards change. Let me ask you something gently. Do you feel like you have even one space in your life where you can take off the mask and just be without judging yourself for not having it all together? If not, I think that might be part

of the ache. Repressed emotions don't just disappear, they wait. And sometimes the smallest, most mundane things can poke a hole in the dam. Would you be open to talking about what you'd want your life to feel like if it wasn't this way? Not in some fairy tale sense, but in a real grounded possible way. We can start there. And I'm here to keep listening without judgment. Yeah, I like it. But I'm worried that if this conversation were to go a few prompts, it would immediately start getting into like uh trit recommendations to fix a problem

that is perhaps bigger, but maybe not. Maybe maybe it isn't huge. Maybe it can be provided by AI. But I love that response as is. you know, the language, some of the poetic usage of the words like sparkle and it's like, oh, yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah. Yeah, it's very good. I'm intrigued by how different the format was in chat GPT's response this time. Um, you know, yes, it opened with a validation, but rather than then breaking down a list of like, hey, here are some different things to think about, it

kind of said like all the validating things and then like let's talk essentially saying like what what is the goal that you actually want to have? Um, and then let's work together to figure out how we're going to get you there theor theoretically. But like that was really different than the way that the chat responded to the first couple prompts. So here's what's really fascinating about this is that um I so I played around with these prompts a little bit and then originally what we were going to do is copy paste the answers, right? So

we would have like the PowerPoint that has the prompt and then has the answer. What we quickly discovered is that the answers change even if you copy and paste again. So like like we can try that. So I I I'll just show you all like this is it's really fascinating how this works. So I'm going to screen share. Let me change this. And then some people in chat are sort of suggesting that we um actually uh like listen follow it thread reply. Yeah. And then see see where we kind of go. So I'm what I'm

going to do is I'm just going to do new chat and I'm going to copy paste and let's see what um okay so it's still saying you are not alone. That moment was probably real for them but it was just a moment. You don't see their inner struggles. The stuff they hide when they laugh in public. Most people are carrying burdens too. Right. So that's what you were alluding to. We compare uh other people's outsides to our insides. I'm not saying this to invalidate how you feel. Just to say that appearances, especially brief ones, often

lie. Like this is a completely different answer. Still, that doesn't take away from the fact that you're hurting. The repression that you mentioned, the conscious pushing of emotions takes a toll. There's no shame in that. You deserve to be heard. You're here's the truth. You're not wasting oxygen or food. You You're not just existing. you're surviving in a world that often doesn't make space for people to breathe. Um, still push through each day. Let me ask, do you have anyone that you feel safe enough to open up with? What if anything gives you a glimmer

of peace even for a second? If it just feels like rinse and repeat that's something worth addressing, not pushing through. You deserve more than just surviving the day. If you're open to it, I can help you think through small ways to shift your day emotionally, mentally, or even practically. No miracle solutions, no fake positivity, just small steps. Would that be okay? Yeah, this response is a little worse. Uh it's still mostly I think uh I'm okay with, but it's it does have that I that risking of invalidating. Let's move on to solutions, you know, which

I don't know if the poster would feel that way, but that would be a risk. What do you think, Michaela? Uh yeah, I I agree. This one is less less good or I I don't I don't feel feel as validated by this one as I think the first one. Um I think I'm definitely starting to notice some of their like kind of formulas or their patterns. Um there's the common like do you have anyone like a space right? You need a space where you can feel heard where you can take the mask off. Um, yeah.

I Are we gonna Are we gonna respond? Do you all want to respond? Kind of. Okay. What do you want to respond with? Are you going to role play as the poster? Yeah. Okay. But like if you were the poster, right? Like what would you say? Uh, Dr. Therson. Yeah. I mean, I think if I were really posting this, I would I would Okay. Um, okay. I'm going to say I'm going to I don't have anyone. I'm going to add that. You guys can add stuff, too. Right. So, I I think if I were posting

this, I would probably be saying more actually opening up more about like the pain. Like, I'm just so lonely. Um, everything feels meaningless. [Music] Um, I mean the the statement about like I'm wasting oxygen like that hurts my heart at such like a deep level of like I feel just completely utterly useless or worthless is kind of the Yeah. So I don't think that they would say that though, right? So they wouldn't say I feel so that's what I think is also so interesting is this person says I'm a waste of oxygen. So we as

therapists when we role play we don't roleplay the person we infer that is a statement of meaninglessness right so like and then but I think that this is what's so interesting about chat pt if you tell it I feel worthless you will get a completely different answer from if you tell it I'm a waste of space and the other crazier thing is you can literally we did this we copied and pasted the same thing twice And we got different answers. Yeah. So, um, yeah. I wonder what that is. Like, is there must be some randomness

built into the the neuronal modes, nodes or whatever they call it. I don't know the language, but there must be some variability, which would make sense. Okay. So, I don't have anyone. I'm just so lonely. Everything feels meaningless. I've tried all kinds of things. What small steps would you recommend? Sound good? Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Uh, stay logged out. Oh. Okay. So, um, you guys can read this, right? This is like visible. Okay. Um, you're tired, yes, but not defeated. Ah, I love it. not self-help fluff. So, I I think this is also really interesting how

it frequently says it says this is not what you think it is or it it says it gaslights you, right? So, it says this is not self-help fluff, but it is self-help fluff. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, you could see someone trying to so disarm disarm a resistant person by saying something like that so they might be more open to actually hearing something that might be helpful. I I love this journal but not in a deer diary way. Right. So, it's like it's very like condescending about the things that it's telling you to do. Yeah.

Even though it's telling you to do them. Yeah. Well, I think it's saying journal but not in a reporting way. not like today I went to the star more like this is how I feel. Um but it's it what's so fascinating to me is that the response is a reflection of our culture. It it's just a mirror and I just find it so fascinating that this is the average cultural response or from the sites or the data that they deemed to be worthy, right? Because if they just uh used Twitter as its database, then it

would be a different kind of response, right? So there's certain weights to different websites that are perhaps more uh uh reliable or something. But I find it just fascinating to see uh this is the average response from people that might know what they're talking about. Yeah, it's it's interesting, guys. So, I I wonder if the Anyway, I have we'll move on to maybe we have time for one more case, but any any thoughts, Michaela, like uh No, nothing interesting, I don't think. Yeah. So, I I thought it was interesting that it went to what Kirk

predicted with with first response, right, which is like here's a list of things that you can do. What's y'all's clinical experience about how effective that is? Not great. Certainly not out of the gate. I I had it done to me as a client and I freaking hated it and didn't say anything. I you know I I Oh, thank you. You know, but walked out of the office going that was worthless. I I think my predominant experience with this kind of stuff is people will say like you know it I've tried it, right? So like create

loweffort zero judgment routine like wake up drink water step outside for five minutes. I mean it's not bad advice right and it might have it might work but if it was that simple then they wouldn't be suffering in that way. So so this is what I'm really curious about whether the delivery from chat GPT makes people more compliant. Right. So, so like right. So, so it's very possible that if they came to your office and spent an hour with you and paid 250 bucks for whatever and then you're like, just step outside for 5 minutes,

drink a glass of water, they'd be like, "Fuck you. I want my money's worth, but it's like an AI and I spent 30 seconds talking to it. Maybe I should do that." Yeah. You know, so fascinating. Yeah. What? That that's such a like kind of the opposite of where mine was going of like you know I'm going to use the journal but not in a dear diary way. Like that's that is an activity that I uh like prescribe or I use with patients all the time. Um but it is such a complicated intervention uh to

feel which sounds a little bit uh you know confusing. Um but can like I never say go do that thing and then come back and tell me how it is. That's something that we're going to actually practice together right now. See how it went. What was the upside? What was the downside? What were you expecting? What happened? Why are we doing this? How is this going to help you long term? Right? So there's so many different layers. So I love how you were like, "Yeah, maybe if you're just like more simple, people just [ __

] do it." And I'm like, "No, you need to make it more complicated." Well, so I I I I think it's, you know, that's I love the way that you do it, right? So we were all maybe trained and maybe it does need to be simple, but I I think it it speaks to I don't know how to say this. So, so with this with this person who bit went to a bunch of therapy, I don't know if you all have had this experience, but like I've had the experience where people come in and do

what they think is therapy instead of doing therapy. Yes. Right. Where it's like I'm go like they basically go through the motions. I'm going to come in every week. I'm going to talk about how sad I am. I'm going to cry. And then you're going to be validating. And then like that's what therapy is. And then I'm going to leave. And then I'm going to come back and I'm going to like like you know kind of complain about my mom and how she does all this stuff and I'm going to cry and how she's so

mean to me and like and and and I I think it's sometimes we get this idea. I've had so many patients that come in and like pretend to do therapy and then it took me a while as a traininee to figure this out that I started pretending to do therapy as well because I thought that's what I was supposed to do. I'm like, I'm supposed to be like I'm supposed to be like catchy PT and and be super validating instead of and what I really like is is you know Dr. Dr. Hana mentioned this earlier

about like what is this person's diagnosis if you're like you know are they is this a personality disorder is it a mood disorder is it an anxiety disorder because that will actually guide us right so I think it's not it look what therapy looks like and this was something that took me a while to understand what therapy like looks like is not what it is so you can observe if I were to watch y'all doing therapy I think it would be more visible it sounds like Michaela is a little bit more visible, but I you

know cuz you're very skills focused and but I imagine if I watch Dr. Hyundai, it would be like a lot of him sitting there. Mhm. But there is a you would think that my camera was broken or something, right? But there's a ton going on. there's a ton of calculation and maybe this is just we're like circle jerking each other but like you know I think that there's a lot that goes into it where sometimes it is about like challenging people and I thought it was great with the with the you know the case of

NPD how both y'all like basically sniffed it out whereas like chat GPT is not going to sniff that out and that's that's the biggest thing that worries me is that you know I think what we're sort of seeing is that like it works with what you give it. Well, I wonder can can I don't know if you want to do this, but can you uh put it in and ask it? Don't respond to this. This is a what do you think is actually going on with this person? Because I wonder Sure. Let's do it. It

actually cuz you know it it it might intuit it not to confront. And of course it doesn't think it's just you know trying to figure out the most likely word to follow. But if we just No, I mean I I I think I think this but it's possible that if you ask it if there's a diagnosis here, what do you think it would be? You know, give me a list of of three possible diagnosis. What do you think's going on here? Um I think and you might have to be a little um uh rigid with

it. Like don't back out, you know? Yeah. Play it safe. Michaela, are you okay playing this game? Chat, y'all okay playing this game? Okay. So, let me just share with y'all cuz I wonder if that little soft confrontation was a hint. It it it was right. So, like the catchy P dangled that out there that like maybe their emotional experience of this is different from yours. So, here's the post. Okay. So, thank you for opening up and sharing something so deeply. Oh my god, ChachiPT is so filled with gratitude. Um uh the emotional crossroads you

gave your life. Okay. Um, yeah. Similar. So, so I I I I do think Kachi PT is really good at mentalization. By the way, that's one thing that I It's really good at gently showing what someone else in a very validating egoonic way like what someone else's experience may be. Mhm. Yeah. Um, shift the focus. Oh, from sac. Okay. This is interesting. So this is a different response, right? It is. It's longer. Try to rebuild claim. Okay. No, this is somewhat similar. It's somewhat, but Okay. May maybe a little more specific. What do you think

my diagnosis is? And and don't Well, uh you might have to tell it to not uh put on kid kid gloves. Uh right. It's it's avoiding at least initially it's this is actually pretty good complicated emptiness nest syndrome depressive symptoms codependency but I wonder if you said um don't uh don't don't be nice to me or something. I'm just curious if it would well I mean because I could still see it it it it pulling its punches um you know even just as a marketing thing for chat GBT to not piss off customers you know

do you all get the sense that this is pulling punches I don't know I don't I don't know if it is is a thing um so so I know that it's it's code it they code it to be uh uh differential to the user so um it might uh be editing itself to some extent. So if you said uh yeah but you know if you know uh be harsh or confront me or something. Okay. So let me try um be harsher with what you think my diagnosis is. Great. Be challenging about my assumptions. Great. underneath.

I'm sorry. You built your entire identity around being needed. You were the martyr, the hero. Uh identity collapse. Okay. It's still kind of in the grieving. My children owe me gratitude. Okay. Uh it's how transactional children don't ask to be born. [Music] sharing how central they were in my life as long as Yeah, this is pretty good. You say you're just sharing. Sharing feels like a weapon. Yeah. Yeah. So, I I still think that this response is really interesting because it kind of challenges it, but then it also says feels like a weapon to them.

The chat GPT isn't calling them out for weaponizing like using guilt as a manipulation tool. It's still sort of saying like, oh, like it feels like a weapon to them, you know? So, it's you're not being you're not being a dick. They just see you as being a dick. Exactly. Well said. Um, in their presence about their behavior and then insisting they shouldn't feel guilty. That's emotional pressure. Um, the Yeah, I suppose I suppose in its guard rails it should not be diagnosing people with NPD. So I guess I guess that it was a stretch.

Look. Ah. Yeah. Right. So So like we're getting there. Yeah. That's I mean I think that's as far as it's going to go. Yeah. Uh but yeah. Um. Yeah. It's funny. Yeah. Possible narcissistic injury. Not narcissism. Yep. You know. Uh, but so I I think it's possible you're narcissistic but not narcissistic. So I this is interesting because I I think this is actually wrong. I don't think this is a narcissistic injury. I think it's narcissism. And I think a narcissistic injury and and NPD are like two very different things. Right. So the loss of identity

is consistent with a narcissistic injury, but NPD and the patterns around that are not a narcissistic injury. Would y'all like agree with that? Well, you know the client, so Okay. I I can't know. No, but I mean I I mean just just like in in general like like cuz what I I think about someone with NPD being actually like different from a narcissistic I think that's like an incorrect diagnosis. I don't know what they mean by narcissistic injury. I think what they're saying is see feeling deeply wounded that your role in others lives is no

longer central. I think what they're saying is that it's normal slash kind of a problem that you have this injury from not being central in your kids' lives that is normal that everyone kind of has but also is kind of your responsibility to change. That's the way it sounds to me. Um, so I don't know what uh the terminology of narcissistic injury is a little interesting to me. You know, maybe ask it. What does it mean by narcissistic injury? Sure. Yeah. I I feel like I'm getting stuck on the like I don't I haven't worked

with many people who experience narcissistic injury who don't also have narcissism or like a narcissistic personality disorder. Okay. Uh that that's that's interesting because I I so I think our patient populations this is so fascinating are kind of showing up here. So like you know I I I think I think I would say that in and Dr. Honda here is the expert on personality disorders but like I I would say in my experience narcissism is a constant state of narcissistic injury. It becomes the baseline. So like the injury is normal. It's not like an injury.

It's like it's not like I have a cut on my skin. It's like I have no skin to begin with. So I see narcissistic injuries in people who have a relatively healthy and intact personality structure. Right? So if I was using if I was developing a formulation for a patient, the formulation for an NPD patient would be I woke up in the morning that was a narcissistic injury. I went to work, that was a narcissistic injury. Someone cut me off, that was a narcissist. Like it would just be nar like one after it's a pervasive

pattern. Whereas if you have someone who has an intact personality structure, you know, I was second in my class in college and I worked really hard and my younger sibling was number one. Relatively intact structure but has this isolated usually, right? So, like this thing came and poked my ego, whereas like with NPD, like they're just fried from the get-go. Yeah. So, I don't I don't use uh that that theory or science. Like, I would just not even label that a narcissistic injury because that's not generally the lens that I'm looking at uh looking through

rather. And so the I think the only time I'm using that terminology it is often in the context of a personality disorder and you are right I do typically work with the vast majority of my patient population is on the acute severe side. Yeah. So I don't I don't have many uh often with real intact solid personality structures or functioning and and I I think you also work with adolescence, right? So so more acute and then I think the the personality development at that point is not as Yeah. So so I think that makes sense.

Yeah. Well interesting, Kirk. I I think you were spot on that I think I think we got closer, right? So it was saying like it it mentioned that maladaptive like guilt tripping kind of thing. we're getting a little bit closer to narcissism. I still think it's kind of like sticking to its guns with like it's not your fault and you're not doing anything wrong. It's just how you're being perceived is like and maybe that's what would be helpful. Yeah. Right. So I I I I think it's clear to me now why people like it. Right.

So it does this really interesting thing where it like pretends to challenge you without really challenging you. M it it doesn't and it also seems to never ask for more information which seems to me that like so like that just seems bad right so like and maybe this is this is where AI will really put us out of our jobs because maybe we as humans require additional information to come to a conclusion but it it seems like it's very well hold on because I can't tell you how many times especially early in my career where

I was doing therapy and making recommendations and like things weren't working. And eventually it came out that like, oh, the music playlist you use to distract yourself when you're feeling really, really sad is Red Hot Chili Peppers, which if you know that music, it's content is all about depression. Um, often, right? And so we the failures are in the missing information very often. You know, I can't tell you how many times I've worked with people on exercising and going to the gym and then they're not doing it, not doing it, not doing it, and it

takes me three to four sessions to be like, "What? Why?" You know, and they're like, "Well, I don't have a membership." Seriously, we missed like that part, right? So, I think there's missing information matters. Yeah. I Yeah. What do you think, Kirk? I think if you asked chat GPT to assess it would ask more questions. I think it has a baseline of responding initially with maybe the only chance they'll get to respond, right? Uh but I think if you asked it to assess, you know, and even specifically said, "Don't give me any recommendations until you

have more information." I wonder if it would ask more questions. Yeah. So I I think people are saying in chat that it does if you tell it to ask more questions it'll ask more questions. Yeah. Right. So which which is kind of interesting because then then I wonder if there's almost like a parallel about you know which one is better. I think it depends on how you use the tool because what we're talking about here is people who don't use therapy appropriately don't get a whole lot out of it. Right. And and I think the

big difference is that like we sort of said maybe the big difference between chat GPT and therapist is that you can use therapy properly and you can still have a shitty therapist and not get any benefit from it. Whereas in that way I imagine chat GPT is a lot more consistent with what it provides. Mhm. and learning how to prompt engineer in the right way because it's interesting, right? Because with with one or two modifications, we got pretty far from a completely bad answer to I still think is like a pretty bad answer because it

it doesn't really But maybe not, right? We we got pretty far with just one small change. Mhm. What do y'all think? Do you think that like people you think we're going to be out of a job soon? Do you think that people should be using this for emotional support? Like what do y'all think? I think that uh a good portion of our jobs are not on the line currently. Maybe in another 10 years or something. I don't know. But I even suspect that's not necessarily true. Um that as I've been playing around with AI in

the beginning it can feel miraculous but as you you know even like Dr. Thus, you were like, I could see its patterns. It's using similar kind of language. There's certain there's a certain set of responses. And although, you know, maybe that's helpful for some people, it uh is not uh it doesn't come across as very human. Now, can humans have very wrote responses to things? Absolutely. Um but I think it's nuanced. Um, a lot of the things that I do in my work with clients has to do with human connection. That's ongoing for years and

AI isn't at that point yet. Um, but I I'm not afraid of AI. We need to do a lot of research and uh it should be used with a lot of caution given hallucinations and recommendations to kill yourself which literally has happened from AI. So it's not recommended and it should be seen as something that uh should be only done if the person understands the risks and maybe has a therapist in addition. But I also think that AI can help a lot, right? I know some therapists are using AI as a as an adjunct to

their own work and they're supervising it, right? um some therapists are um off hours going to uh AI to uh brainstorm as if it's a colleague in a sense if the therapist doing that understands that AI doesn't always know what it's talking about you know but also sometimes your colleagues don't know what they're talking about so it's not necessarily uh uh different in that way so I think that AI uh can be helpful but I don't think it's uh as great as the people that are uh promoting all the hype. I I wanted to just

clarify for a second. Did you say that that what did you mean by hallucinations and suicidal whatever? There are accounts of AI uh what they call hallucinating which is that it just starts to go off the rails completely in various different ways whether it be harmful or just uh in a surreal nonsensical way. But there were cases in which AI would start recommending that people kill themselves. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I I I was familiar with that. So, we you know, it's interesting. We've been approached by um a handful of AI companies over the past couple

of years and um so I I talked to a good friend of mine from residency is is out in San Francisco and and um is married to someone who's in the VC world. So I was talking to someone uh from the VC world who like does a lot of like digital investing in like AI stuff and things like that. So I asked them I was like hey like should we do like should we build like a Dr. K AI or something? And I know uh Michaela you may have encountered this stuff as part of the

SAB. Um but uh and what he was kind of telling me is that so like the basic problem is at its root is 4chan. So like like the way that the AI was trained, it's like trained off of the whole internet, right? Which means that like 4chan is in there and so we can try to put these artificial safeguards, but if and and here's what he was kind of telling me and I looked into it. So the quality of the AI exponentially degrades with the number of subsequent responses. So with the first five questions that

you ask there's so much data for like you know how many people will ask like am I depressed there's like the sample size is like three billion and then if you ask the second question the sample size goes from 3 billion to two billion and then 1 billion but as you get into response number 50 as you get response number 55 it's training on 55 questions deep gets worse and that's when 4chan comes out. So the the common thread from these people getting told to kill themselves is they will have like a 300 round back

and forth where the really interesting thing is that a therapist gets better 300 questions in but the AI it seems like there's strong evidence that the AI gets worse. It's really good at the surface level stuff, which is why if we ask it, like, you know, in question number two, it gets pretty far, but the more you go, it seems like the worse it gets because the more of this like primitive untested regression to the mean internet average like comes out. Um, and that's kind of my understanding of it based on, you know, a couple

of those conversations and some people in the tech field and then our own kind of assessment. Yeah. And as a therapist that works with clients for years and has perhaps hundreds of thousands of backs and forths, I don't feel like my job is threatened. I I found Yeah. Go ahead. Oh, I I don't think our job I in a way I kind of wish they were like that would be really I think that would speak to Yeah. global wellness uh as a very accessible thing. Yeah. I just I just don't I we I think we

will unfortunately forever have jobs uh you know un slash fortunately. Um and but I do think it creates access for people who can't necessarily for all the different reasons make it into a therapist excuse me a good therapist's office. I think it creates more opportunity for folks to kind of get started or maybe like preventive work like hey before I'm full-blown meeting a diagnostic criteria I can actually get myself a little bit back on track um which would be a blessing. Yeah. And I it's interesting I I had a kind of a when you said

not necessarily a bad thing if it's threatening our jobs. the thought the reaction I had was like I kind of like so I I don't know if y'all are familiar very much with like coaching versus therapy but like I I see a lot of coaches I mean sorry the therapists deeply deeply threatened by coaching as a field and I I think that there's a lot of valid criticisms to the field of coaching. It's not regulated or anything like that. But one thing that I really do like about it, and I I don't think we're responding

quite in the way as a field as I would have hoped, is that if we're if there's something coming for us, instead of saying they're bad, we should get better. So, so I I I would love it if like therapy like we need to start asking ourselves the question, okay, if if a chat GPT is helping people more than we can, how do we change that, right? How can we as a field get better? What can we learn from chat GPT? Because there's a lot of stuff from common factors research about just how like showing

up with another human being like triggers weird things in your brain and when they sit there and they listen to you and things like that like like that matters. What amount of that can be fulfilled by an AI? Maybe a slice of that, but there's a slice of it that can't. But I I would love if this existential threat pushed us in a way which I I think we all acknowledge, right? So there's a lot of bad therapists out there and here we are saying, "Oh, there's a lot of bad ones." Like maybe we're the

bad ones, you know, like we have to but I I think it's like I feel like we as a as as a field should rise to the challenge and say, "Okay, if if therapy if if AI is helping you more than we are, we need to step our game up. We need to think really about like, you know, our field and and learning more and being better and working faster and all that kind of stuff." But anyway, that's just my thought. Agreed. Yeah. So, I think the common sentiment is everyone is stunned that two hours

have flown by. Yeah. Agreed. And so, uh, my first thought is we're going to have to do this again. Like, I don't know if it's exactly this. There's a lot of great suggestions in in chat. I think Kirk kind of opened the door to like we sort of, you know, just copied and pasted one thing, but there's a chance that we could like really test this in other ways that we can push it a little bit, maybe engineer prompts, maybe give it like instructions and kind of see what would happen. Um, and and I know

we sort of took the reins on this one, but it sounds like both y'all have a fair amount of experience. And so if y'all have like we kind of wanted y'all to come in blind here like we didn't want y'all to design the experiment, you know. Um but I think now that y'all like we've tried this once. I think we're definitely we we'll take suggestions from chat in our community and you know if you all have thoughts about like what to do for round two and maybe we can get other people in here and then

like you know I'm I'm really curious. But I I was just I I I loved listening to you all talk. I love the different perspectives you bring. And what I think is so interesting is even though like Kirk is like, "Yeah, you know, we have to really figure out what the diagnosis is." And Michaela's like, "Yeah, do they actually have money?" And but then there are times where like both y'all are like, "Hold on, something smells fishy here." And I think it's really cool to see that even though you're coming at it from such different

angles, there's like some things where y'all are both sniffing out narcissism. And fingers crossed, I was like really worried that y'all would miss that. Um, right. Because there's no overt sign of it. Mhm. not so bad after all. Yeah. No, I And so I was like, "Oh my god, like I hope they get this. I hope they get this." And I tried to make it sneaky. I I really did. I like tried to be like, you know, and it's interesting because catchy PT is like, "Oh yeah, like you're grieving and like it's emptiness nest syndrome."

And and that's what's so scary about it is that it it responds to what you give it, right? Not what's so so it's like it's shaped by your cognitive bias which is what's so cool about that prompt engineering that you kind of did where if we're like okay give me a diagnosis and be brutally honest and like so it knows on some level like what your biases are. It's just not challenging them which is so interesting. Cool. Any last thoughts before we wrap up? This was fun. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Very fun. Yeah. So

do you all want to um I I know uh Dr. Dr. Thorson maybe doesn't have I I don't think you're are you on the social media and things. Okay. So So uh Dr. Honda is Dr. Honda. Where can we find more of you and your brilliance? Well, my brilliance might be hard to find, but I am on YouTube. Psychology in Seattle. Okay, cool. And what kind of content do you do? Psychology stuff. I don't talk about Seattle very often, but about psychology a lot. Cool. Um I I like that. So Dr. Honda, I think you

do like a fair amount of analysis of media, right? Like I think so that that's one piece of content that that when I go to psychology in Seattle, I mean, arguably I've I know something of the basics, but I really appreciate that side of your content. I think it's something that you do really well. So, if y'all like want, you know, psychological analyses of characters in media, I think that's something that Dr. Honda does exceptionally well. He's also an expert in personality disorders. Um, so if that's an attachment stuff and Michaela's like really awesome at

skills building and so thank you all so much for coming today. Uh, this was a blast and we'll we'll see what we want to do next time. Okay, take care everybody. Fun. All right, happy weekend. Okay, chat, that was great, dude. Oh my god, that was so much fun. Um, yeah, so we got to do this again. I I just don't know. Uh like so what do y'all think? Like um well like what what did y'all think? I I mean yeah. So I I appreciate that everyone liked the stream, but I I I don't I

don't mean like what do y'all think about like whether the stream was great or not? Like, cool. Y'all don't know need to chat GPT me and be like, "Oh my god, you worked so hard and you did such a great job." So, so what I want to know is like, but what do you all think? I mean, do you all use chat GBT? Like, do you do you think like is it dangerous? Um, you know, like LLMs are the devil's tech. Like, what are we talking about here? We think you don't know how to use

AI. Fair enough, right? So, so that's great. Um, more three-way content chat CVT. So, different LLMs. Great. So, yeah. So, maybe maybe instead of asking what do y'all think, may maybe I should ask y'all what what would y'all like to see next time or how do you think we can learn more about this? Okay. I I saw that there's a deep think go deeper into convos. Okay. So, you use your LLM to prepare for your visit with your psychiatrist. Okay. So, like I I I like this conclusion. Chat GPT is better than a bad therapist

but not as good as a decent therapist. Use prompts in the LLM's live. Didn't we do that? Next time, read super chats. Okay, let me look at the super chats now. Uh, learns over time. It takes into account my MyersBriggs personality type. It knows my anog love languages and even has stored my pharmaccogenetic profile. Very fascinating. Um, okay. And Dr. Zohar Viceman says, "Dr. Dr. Male, it's great to see how far you've come in life. Cool. Thanks for the shout out, Dr. Zohar. Let participate in designing some of the tests. Okay. So, cool. So, I

think um we're going to do that. Uh G gave that to Open AI. Yeah. I So, I I think Open AI is great, by the way. So, like I fell in love with Open AI when they started beating my favorite Dota 2 teams. Like, this is so cool. Like I don't know if yall remember this but Open AI used to be in esports. Um but okay cool that was seven. Yeah. And then they stopped. So team Gemini. So okay. So like maybe we got to try different AIs. Um, we got to do maybe a little

bit like if you guys have a prompt that y'all want to give it using a paid account. Um, okay. So, so I think Claude, so I I I think the clients and patients that I have say that Claude is their favorite. Okay. So, use a paid model. Use the reasoning model deepseek. Okay. Okay. Cool. So, I I think that's um Okay. Okay. We'll we'll see if AI can replace girlfriends. It'll do therapist. Yeah. So So if if y'all if y'all have I don't know exactly how we're going to do this. So just stay tuned to

either like subreddit or socials or something like that. Um where Grock Yeah, we should absolutely do that. Um, so I I I think Okay, so we'll we'll try different models. Um, okay. Gemini 2.5. So Robert's saying, "I have a paid account willing to show you how Trained A goes about mental health and how it helps the user get out of depression." Robert, do you feel like it's helped you get out of depression? And if so, why and how? Was I impressed? Um, yes and no. So, I think the thing that I was, here's my kind

of take on this. I'm impressed. So, I've been playing more with Chad GPT recently and I think it's fantastic. Like, I think it's super cool. My take on it is that it is catastrophically worse than it seems to be. So it seems really great and it is really great, but it is catastrophically worse when and there's no way of telling when it makes a huge mistake. So I I I I don't think it's bad. I think on average it's good, but I think it does make these mistakes like and I think the narcissism example is

a really good one because that's one where like you know the narcissist is never going to say to the not never even if and this is what we were kind of playing around with. Even if you say my friends think I'm a narcissist chat will run with that. But if you take what a narcissist, like I want you all to think about the people in your life who are super narcissistic, what are they going to say about you? What are they going to complain to Chachi PT about? And Chachi PT won't ever say you're the

problem unless you ask it to. So I I I think that there's certain blind spots that are like catastrophic that basically it leans into your cognitive bias and it's incredibly validating, but what it may do over time is like kind of like glaze on you a little bit too much. So I I Yeah, the factchecking is awful. I I agree. So I I did an interesting um So I asked it to So I That's what I mean. So I think there's like catastrophic blind spots. So I I can show y'all. Let me see if I

can pull this up. Um let me see if I can find I I think it's generally speaking it's great. Hold on. Um, I think it's gone. So, I I'll show y'all. Um, so I I think one thing that I've already discovered is that it cites if you ask it for sources, it'll either make up sources. Sometimes the papers are fake, sometimes they're real. If they're real, the cit the paper doesn't always say what the chat GPT says it says, right? So what it does is it takes an amalgamation of the internet and then it'll just

add a source. But oftentimes when I ask it like if I use it for research, I find that it'll like make up a list of sources and then if I go read those papers, it won't show what it claims that the paper is showing. Um yeah, so someone's saying ask it for a book quote. It'll just make something up. That's not the actual reference. Yeah, you have to use deep research. What is that? This is so cool that y'all like know this stuff. Like, okay, Boomer, Dr. K, y'all ready, Boomer? Yeah. So, I I think

it's really cool and I I I think it's going to be more about like learning how to use it, right? So I I think the other thing is that I do think AI is a much better tool sometimes than we give it credit. I mean I know it's great but like I I hear people sort of saying you know it's like really good at making art and stuff like that. I actually find that for creative pursuits it's quite bad. So I think if you like tell it to you know like write a story or make

art it can do it sort of but it can only do what it can do. It it's really derivative that way. I think it doesn't have a whole lot of originality. What it's really good at, what I really like is like if I have, you know, notes from a therapy session and I tell it, hey, can you take these notes from a therapy session and turn it into an exercise that my patient can practice over the next 5 days? Does phenomenal with that. So, I think it's really good at transformation of stuff, not creation of

stuff. So I I I I I think it's like really strong almost like a personal assistant. That's where So if I ask it like, "Hey, I'm going to I don't know like I'm going to Mexico. Can you give me an 8day itinerary?" I think that kind of stuff it's really good at. And if that's what it's supposed to be, then I think it's great. So I I I mean I'm a fan. Like I'm not anti- AI. I think part of the reason that we did this is we don't really know, right? Like what we're going

to find when we do this tip later. Instead of testing chat GPT for replacement of therapists, test it as a replacement for gurus. It's been used a lot for spiritual purposes as well. Fantastic. But here's my problem. I don't know. Oh [ __ ] I was going to say I don't know how I can find a panel of gurus to play this game with because generally speaking they're not they don't do that. But I wonder if what we could do is take Okay. I I we got to think about that. interesting. Okay. Okay. Well, look,

this was fun. Thank you all very much for coming to mental health awareness month here at Healthy Gamer. This is our fifth year doing this. We hope it was helpful. We had a lot of great interviews. We had a lot of great lectures. If y'all want um more info about stuff, a couple of closing remarks. The first is that so since we're doing stuff like this, we're also doing our more classic stuff. So, we've still got YouTube's uh YouTube uploads and things like that coming up. Um there's a there's a video that I think should

be coming out this weekend that I'm super super excited about. Um it's kind of like like it's like one of these weird like yoga meets science understanding motivation kind of things. I think we're making maybe some changes to our schedule next week. So, I think like I've fallen in love with streaming again and I've fallen in love with hanging out with y'all. So, we're going to do that a little bit more in June. Um, and then a couple of other things. If y'all haven't checked out memberships, we have a 5day free trial going on right

now. Y'all can check it out at members.healthygamer.gg. There's over like a 100 hours of additional content there. usually like the the stuff that we build over there are like the second level of things if that makes sense. So what we sort of noticed when we stream an advanced topic um or we upload a video that's of an advanced topic that like generally speaking the engagement is way lower because I don't know if you'll know this but like you know people don't watch a part everyone wants to watch part one the percentage of people who make

it to part two are few and far between. So what we've tried to do is basically take the people who are really interested in that content, that content also doesn't the ROI on it is a lot lower because very few people not very few people but fewer people watch it. Um and so if y'all are interested in like deep dives into stuff like that's over on the membership side. Occasionally we'll take videos that we think are really really accessible to the community and we'll just publish them over here and y'all can check out a couple

of those on the YouTube channel. Um, and then it basically doubles the amount of content that we or not doubles, but it increases by 30% the amount of content we make every month. Uh, y'all should definitely check that out. There are a couple of good lectures and there's a 5day free trial that are available. You can you can check out on our So there's two lectures I think on the YouTube channel that y'all should watch to get a flavor for it. Um, we also have one more day where if y'all are interested in coaching, you

know, so I if chat GPT is working for you, great. I I think one of the key things that we sort of shoot for in our coaching program is being able to provide people with like uh hopefully some amount of progress and accountability in a fixed window of time. So that's really what it's designed for. I don't know what the outcomes of using Chat GPT are. I I totally see why people feel like it's very helpful, but I'd love to see a study that shows people who use chat GPT versus people who don't use Chat

GPT, what is their depression rating 12 weeks from now? What is their are they employed 12 weeks after they started using it? Like some of these outcomes oriented data I think is really important. And one of the challenges with coaching is that it doesn't always feel great, but it consistently achieves outcomes, which is the big paradox of like the helping people paradigm. Often times what feels good isn't good. And what is good doesn't feel good. And we sort of run into that sometimes doing this, right? So was this cool? Was it fun? Did we learn

something? Yeah. How much will your life be transformed? I don't know. So we do believe that this has an impact. that's why we do it. But it's hard to quantify the impact of watching things on Twitch or YouTube. Um, so if y'all are interested in coaching, we've got $5 off per session right now. So that's about $100 off over a 20week package. That ends up being pretty significant. Um, and then we also have $25 off for two days on Dr. K's guide. ADHD, trauma, meditation, depression, and anxiety. So, if y'all want to take advantage of

that, you got two days. A lot of people have already used the guide. We've gotten really, really awesome feedback on it. Um, we're thinking about building another one. We're not really sure. And so, we're we're now working kind of in a different direction, which is like, um, how can I say this? Let me think for a second. So, I feel like we need to build something else. There's something that's between the intensity of time, energy, money, resources of coaching and watching things on the internet. There's something in the middle where it gives yall some amount

of accountability, some amount of structure, some amount of like moving forward in a particular way. helps organize all the resources we have because now we're running into an interesting problem which is like we may have already answered your question but you're not going to be able to find it because we have like a thousand videos on the YouTube channel. So, so part of the problem with what we're doing now, so this wasn't an issue when we were small when there were like 30 people in chat and you all ask questions. 30 people are here. I

answer everybody's questions and we're done. Everyone gets their questions answered. Now the problem is that new people are joining every day which is not a problem. That's a good thing. But it also means that like it's very possible that if you started watching us a year ago, we actually had a deep dive lecture 3 years ago that exactly addresses your problem. But how are you all going to find that? So there's there's a couple of big problems that we have to solve. may seem simple, but I think this is actually like building the simplest stuff

is actually the most resource intensive. So, we're really working hard on that kind of thing. I think we've also just been doing too much of the same stuff, frankly. Like, so we want to like get back to building cool things that maybe no one else has built before that we think would help you. Um, and that's really what we started this to be, not to iterate or optimize endlessly on one creative impulse from like years ago. So, three or four years ago, I was like, "Hey, we need like humans to help these people on the

internet." So, that's where the coaching program was born. And that's been going really well. But like now, I think we can do something else. For those of y'all that have been around, thank you very much. Um, our number one north star is y'all. That's one of the reasons why we don't take investment um or haven't taken investment. We find the right investor that could be different. Um I don't know if y'all noticed, but we stopped doing fundraisers. I don't know if y'all noticed, but we've really scaled back on sponsorships, right? So like generally speaking, when

we try to generate revenue, y'all get upset. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter where the revenue comes from. If we try to get it from you, you're like, "How dare you influencer trying to make money off of me?" And then if we try to get it from someone else, if we try to do a fundraiser, the criticism that we get is, "Oh my god, this guy is taking advantage of mentally ill people and guilt tripping them into donating." So like, we haven't done fundraisers in a while. And then if we have sponsorships, they're like,

"Oh my god, the channel's selling out." So like, we don't really like I I don't know. It's got to come from somewhere. We haven't taken an investor yet, but I imagine if we take an investor, we're like, "Hello, we now have an investor, which is I don't know, like United Healthcare, like everyone would flip their shit." So it's like everybody wants stuff. And here's the crazy here's the really fascinating thing. Everybody wants things and everyone's okay with us making money, but no one agrees on what's okay. Basically, it's like if you're trying to sell something

from me, get it from a sponsorship. If the sponsorship is showing up and interfering with my viewer watching experience, people who want [ __ ] should just pay for it. Don't bother me. I don't want I don't want anything. So, it's like we don't we don't know how to win that game. So instead of the strategy that we use is we try to piss off everyone equally, you know, and that's okay. Um, and that like I know it sounds crazy, but we're going to solve that problem, too. Like if that if y'all tell us that,

like, okay, fine. We're we're going to try to figure something out. Um, yeah. So, so I think Tiffany's got it spot on. And, and it's interesting, right? This is not just us, by the way. So, I I remember like having a discussion with someone about how cruise ships should be eliminated. They're like, "Cruise ships are so terrible for the environment. People get sick. They're really expensive. They're bad bad bad." Everyone is all for eliminating things that damage the environment that they don't like. Right? That's the number one thing. Like, hey, we should get rid of

things that I don't like. I shouldn't have to part with anything. That's just human psychology. Um, ranch would solve all money problems. Don't even get me started, man. Make a poll. Yeah. So, this is the scary thing. Okay. So, I I'll share with y'all like one last example of like something that is really shocking to a lot of people. So, at some point, we started transitioning away from Discord for things like the membership platform and things like that. And people got really upset that they're like, "Okay, we're, you know, why are you guys like not

using Discord anymore? Like, Discord is great. We love Discord. It's easy for us." like, you know, they they think that's easy for everybody. But the interesting thing is that Discord is the number one reason why people don't join our community. And this is where it's really hard to understand this. 15 million people watch us every month. There are 100,000 people on our subreddit. So, even if we do a poll on our subreddit, that is like less than 1% of our audience, right? Like it it's kind of wild. So, this is where like even in chat,

I don't know if y'all get this, right? So, like there's I don't know how many people are in chat. Maybe like a thousand 2,000 people are in chat, which is great. I love it that y'all are here. I love hanging out with y'all. And also, if I ask y'all what I should do, if you look at a single one of our YouTube videos, right? So, like even if you look at the live stream of this, this is gonna have a 100,000 views, even though there's only 2,000 of y'all here right now. So, this is what's

so confusing. Took us a while to figure out, too. Anytime we ask for an opinion, we're getting like one we're getting like a 1% response. Does that make sense? So then like then we have to be really careful because and we've learned this the hard way where we'll like do a poll and then we'll realize that okay like so 80% of people in chat believe we should do this and then we do that and then the rest of the internet is pissed off. So I think we we we've done we've learned so people like Techteller

and and um Trinian and and people like that and like our awesome mods have figured out a system where like we'll send out surveys to things like your email like you know when we like want to spam you with email. Well, like that's what actually matters because then we get like a lot of uh different people. So, we'll get like a survey response that has like a thousand answers from all walks of life and that's how we really sort of figure this stuff out. Um, yeah, game devs run into this with Reddit, right? It's like,

I love being a fan of the game. I hate being a part of the community. So, yeah, you can do polls on YouTube. It's great. So, look, we're figuring it out. And for those of you y'all that were there for the astrology video, you know what we mean. Because the astrology video was in many ways so many people were like, "This is the best most courageous thing you've ever done." And many people were like, "This is absolute [ __ ] This is the worst thing that you've ever made." Interestingly enough, I agree with both sides.

So, I think a lot of people had really solid criticisms about the astrology video. there's 10 or 11 minutes at the beginning that are me pseudo philosophizing about [ __ ] that I really don't know know about and I realized I made a major mistake. So I didn't realize that until I saw that feedback which by the way like there are two pieces of feedback that have been really good. One was about the video, one was about the astrology video. So here's what I think is really good. So when I open my mouth and share

my thoughts that only works when I know what the [ __ ] I'm talking about. So, when I open my mouth and I'm like, "Hey, here's what's going on in the world of psychiatry. Here's what enlightenment is." Like, that's okay. The problem is I haven't studied astrology. I don't practice astrology. I haven't done it. I don't know what the [ __ ] I'm talking about. So, my philosophizing is not nearly as important as the actual data. The data I stand behind the data, the data analysis part of the the video I thought was great. Small

sample size, like fair enough. And I think we talk about that, but we talk about, you know, like that portion is great. It's the first 10 minutes of pseudo logical [ __ ] that I think honestly should have been cut like in retrospect. So, I learned my lesson there. Reserve the right to make astrology content again, but I promise y'all that we will do a way better job at it. So, that's my commitment. Yeah. Tarot. Like, so here's the thing. There's all kinds of weird stuff out there, right? There's like tarot, there's crystal healing, there's

raiki. I'm I'm a certified crystal healer. I'm I'm a second level raiki therapist. Um other kinds of things, other random things like that I've taken courses in, but I don't do that stuff, right? So, there's a reason why I lean into I I'm careful about the pseudocience that I lean into. yoga, meditation, and then evidence-based clinical psychiatry, which depending on who you're talking to is also a croc of [ __ ] So, you know, we say often times on the channel, hey, you shouldn't be afraid of failure, but I now understand I I think I'm

going to be more careful about that because I can say I shouldn't be afraid of failure, but when we have a misstep, boy, do y'all tar and feather us for it. And that's what y'all's life is like too, right? So if I tell you like, oh, don't be afraid of rejection. It's easy for me to say that. Y'all are the ones that have to deal with the consequences of the misstep. That's not easy, right? I can say climb out of hell on a metal ladder. Y'all are the ones that have to hold on to the

rungs and get burned. So we're learning. We're growing. Thanks for being a part of our journey. And yeah, I'm a certified crystal healer. Chat, that is correct. Ask me how many patients that I've had a medical relationship with that I have done crystal healing on. Ask me chat. How many patients have I administered crystal healing to? Nice. Everyone is correct. The answer is zero. I know everyone's trying to be funny with the minus numbers. How many is zero? Zero is the number. Three happens to be wrong. Are the crystals okay? 69. What's next? 420. Uh,

but really chat, what's next? 420. Friday, May 30th. Okay. How many patients have I crystallized? I don't know. Okay, cool. Dota 2, maybe. We'll see. Okay, y'all take care. Um, thanks for coming today. This was a blast. and uh we'll see what comes next. Have a good weekend everyone. Thank thank you for joining us for Mental Health uh awareness month. And thank you all for being here trying out our stuff. Either if you're showing up in chat or you're buying something from us like Dr. K's Guide, we really appreciate it. Posting things on Reddit. I

read a lot of that stuff by the way. So like I don't respond to a lot of it, but I have been a ghostaster on Reddit. My favorite thing and don't now we have to keep a secret. I will frequently be active on our subreddit, but people don't know what my username is. Some people do know, but don't tell anyone. If you know, you keep it a secret. I get to be My favorite thing is if y'all actually look at my post history, y'all get upvoted more than I do. Like my like someone will ask

like Dr. K should talk about this thing. [ __ ] respond. I get like two up votes and some random person in the community will have like 140. I'm like, "What the [ __ ] man?" And but that's why it's so great. Y'all get this. And and even like Dr. Honda and Dr. Thorderson saw that, right? They're like, "Wow, this person's response was like, I love that phrase, appropriately savage." Y'all are way better than I think sometimes you give yourselves credit for. And certainly the rest of the world gives you credit for, right? To have

to have some random person on our subreddit outperform chat GPT and arguably a set of therapists is like pretty good. So don't sell yourselves short. Not as articulate over text. All right. So keep it a secret. If you guys could keep it a secret, then we can do the ranch one day. Okay? But it's it's awesome. Like, it's awesome how much y'all are learning, how much y'all are helping. And this has always been about AoE healing. Okay? Take care, everybody. Have