we're living in times where people have never been more self-obsessed but I think that the source of most of the pain that people feel in their life why they hit a wall why they can't get any further in life is because they don't understand people when we read a book like yours you're reading getting your saying yeah that other person's like this he's talking about them these evil people out there and then all of a sudden BAM you hit me in the face then you say I'm talking about you so what's the difference in your
mind between a meal on my skin - Jeff Bezos I think he's someone who's a little bit out of control there's no one more dangerous than than a person who has no self awareness they can't see who they are do you think we almost need somebody else who knows us very well to give us their feedback with us willing to take it well it's a question of both it's a great question so today I'm sitting with a good friend of mine Robert Greene you've probably read some of his books if you haven't heard of his
books forty laws of power art of seduction mastery 50th law 33 strategies award and now now the book he's been working on for years that we've been looking forward to he sent me a copy in advance I didn't just read it if you look at what this book looks like I shredded this book it looks like a five-year-old book this is this is the guy's books I study I don't read his books I study his books it's called the laws of human nature and we're gonna get into it today really really deep into this book
hopefully if you were here five minutes before us doing this we just had a 45 minute banter it was incredible maybe put some glimpse of it into a but Robert thank you so much for joining us you have a passion it's good to have you back it's good to have you back so loss of human nature you know I read your book and one of the things I like about the way you you started a book is the fact that you know we all think when we read a book like yours as you're going through
it you're reading and you're saying yeah that other person's like this oh no this other person's like that he's talking about her he's talking about him he's talking about them these evil people out there and then all of a sudden BAM you hit me in the face and you say I'm talking about you okay so you're saying they're saying oh my gosh like you we think we are so much more polish superior and smarter and intelligent and we really are and then you challenge that perspective and you completely give a spin to it so what
inspired you to want to write a book the laws of human nature well you know each of my books kind of comes at a historical moment so the 48 laws of power was at a moment where I think people were being really hypocritical about power there were a lot of self-help books out there that were so soft and gentle and like everything is sort of pollyannish about power and you just need to be positive and have an open attitude and be nice to people and you'll get ahead and it really pissed me off because my
experiences in Hollywood it elsewhere and in in in all the different jobs I've had is that's not what the world is like so I felt angry and when I'm angry I write a book and so mastery I was really angry because I thought people don't know how to make things anymore they're so techno obsessed they're so into their algorithms they're so think they can get anything easily or quickly and we're gonna find ourselves in a world where bridges are gonna fall apart people don't know how to design things or make things or write a book
anymore and I was really worried about it so I wrote I was angry so I wrote mastery so the laws of human nature I think we've lost a sense of psychology of what really motivates people I think people were living in times where people have never been more self-obsessed so more self-absorbed for whatever reasons they're maybe a little bit social media plays a huge role in that and so people are kind of locked into their own little world you may not realize this but I think that the source of most of the pain that people
feel in their life the source of most of their failures in life why they hit a wall why they can't get any further in life is because they don't understand people they don't understand what motivates they can't get inside the mind of the other person they're always thinking of themselves and because of that they're they don't have the ability to persuade or influence people to get them to move in the direction they want their relationships with people are very thin and brittle there's no real deep empathic connection specifically to today's times as which was yes
got it it's getting worse and worse out there but also a lack of a self-awareness as you were pointing out in the beginning everyone thinks it's the other person that's narcissistic or aggressive or is envious or has a dark side or is repressed or is short side not me no so a lack of a self-awareness and the lack of what really motivates people and I encounter it all the time I do a lot of consulting with very high-powered people in business in politics all over the world you would go to the Middle East for a
month because somebody was hiring you to help him out with decisions they were making yeah and I was always shocked at how they could be so smart about some things but be absolutely ignorant about people like they hired somebody who ended up being the partner who stole the company as if a person like that doesn't leave traces behind them in their past and they were going to do that you know on and on and on I could give you a hundred different stories at the same thing so I'm always shocked at how people don't have
a sense of the psychology of the people they're dealing with they don't know how to judge people's character they're basing their opinions of people on their appearance whether someone's charming or good-looking or articulate and they're not looking behind this behind the surface behind the mask so that anger kind of fueled this book and was sort of one of the main reasons I I'm hoping you get angry every three years that's what I'm hoping hopefully three years when are you getting angry again to keep writing books for the next thirty years okay but you know it's
interesting you say that I read a book one time by a British diplomat called leaderless or revolution and he said some of the biggest revolutions nowadays are starting without a leader because it's becoming a complete different era were living in revolutions are driven by three different things something that bothers you something you love something that you hate and you're angry about and typically the biggest ones are obviously number three hate and anger because you want to do something about let me to few pages I've marked off okay and I don't know how many them we'll
get into with this interview but I will try to get into some of them so you say here on page 100 this is the section where you Thomas see through people's masks right and you say realize the following the word personality comes from the Latin persona which means mask which means we're all wearing a mask right in the public we all wore masks and this has a positive function if we display exactly who we are and spoke our minds truthfully we would offend almost everyone and reveal qualities that are best concealed so does this mean
that we're all living a life of you know lies or does it mean that some of us actually are those who are willing to surround yourself with people who are willing to tell you the truth and your sensitivity doesn't get into it to find your blind spots you're able to advance what does it mean to you when you write something like this well I'm basically challenging this idea this notion that people have that acting in life in being social and in wearing that mask is a bad thing as if we need to be more authentic
and be just who we are and I think that's completely bogus I think humans are actors from the age of two years old three years old we learned how to manipulate our parents by crying when we needed to cry being charming saying certain things we learn how to act and when we grow up I have in that chapter I make the point if if you met a person that said exactly what he felt every time you know you would hate that person he would never get a you would never have any friends so let's be
honest about this we're all acting when we're in the office we're not telling our boss exactly what we think about his stupid ideas or what he's wearing or his clothes or etc we say what we think is appropriate for that situation we are courtiers and I want to bring some honesty into that and say stop fighting that need to be an actor in fact what you want to be is you want to be a better actor you want to be good at this so you you are not saying be truthful you're saying learn to act
better because there's some contradictions to that within the book as well though right well it depends on the situation in which you're being truthful you need to be truthful about yourself you need to be honest about who you are you need to be honest that you have a dark side that you have aggressive impulses that you can feel envious so you need to be truthful about yourself but being a social animal which is what we are means that you have to mold what you say and how you act to the situation that you're in you
can't just simply blurt out what you what you feel that's not that's being an animal that's not being a human being a human being controls his emotions has the ability to control what he or she says I see a thousand times in business situations the number one sin that people make mistakes in in negotiations or in meeting is they talk too much they say things that they shouldn't have said they reveal things about themselves that they shouldn't you need to have more self-control you need to be better at wearing that mask and you need to
enjoy the sense of being a good actor and playing the role some of the best people who are the most successful are really good at playing a role are really good at this sort of an acting aspect does this kind of go to later on in the book when you talk about how Hubert Humphrey story with Lyndon Johnson and how he meets you know Russell and Russell becomes like a courtier or becomes a mentor to you no Lyndon Johnson to take his ambitions and say you're a little bit too vocal your ambitions are a little
too crazy you're robbing people are wrong when he finds a way to befriend Hubert Humphrey and at least to who he becomes is that is that kind of intertwined with that story or no yes it is I mean all my books are trying to make you the reader more outer directed so as I said we're increasingly self-absorbed we're always thinking about ourselves to people like me did I say the right thing you know am I being respected and I want to flip the scenario I want you to look and think about the other person what
they need what their thinking their psychology their background their problems and starting from position you have the ability to influence them and that may lead into some of this acting ability where you know how to present the proper front for them etc I know I get a lot of flack for this in my books and I've had it since the 48 loves the power and the art of seduction but I'm saying to be a social animal and to be able to get along with people you of course if sometimes you need to be honest I
don't think you should be dishonest with your wife and your children that's those are personal situations I'm talking about in the business world I'm sure you when you're addressing your thousands of employees at those I've been to that in Vegas you're playing a role you're wearing a mask you're showing them a kind of persona that's going to impress them you're being a leader being a leader means being assertive being strong talking a certain tone of voice carrying yourself in a certain way you're an actor and the better you are in front of a crowd in
doing that the more people will think of you as a person of authority right that's a different perspective thinking about it now do you think there's partly some people who struggle with that or maybe they don't struggle with that that we need to improve in that because in the book you talk about how one woman can meet a man and a man can open up and say let me tell you about the way I've always raised my relationship my mother and he starts crying and one woman can say wow what an emotional guy I love
this guy sensitive sensitive man his heart I felt him and another one we can say what a pansy you are so weak right do you think this struggle is to try to get everybody to like us that becomes the issue where eventually we don't end up becoming who we really can become or are you actually saying that one has to learn how to wear a different mask to deal with the person that wants the sensitive side or this side because that can become a very complicated life because you become bipolar having to become so many
different personalities so I'm really curious to know if we can dig a little deeper on what you're saying here well I'd say you know what I'm asking for I think I do but I'm saying you need to be aware of the person that you're dealing with now some people are truly toxic and we've all encountered them in our life there they're no good they're gonna they can ruin your life they're aggressive they're they're selfish whatever it is and and my book is full of stories of those types now when you're with them you need to
be able to suss them out you need to be able to see the signs of this you're dealing with the toxic person so I'm telling you to be aware in the moment that every person you deal with in life is different as an individual you Patrick have a background that's unique right you've explained some of that to me the more I know about your unique background about who what makes you who you are the better I'm able to deal with you it doesn't mean I have to become a fake person with Patrick it just means
that when I know that you have these particular sensitivities and these particular values I have to be aware of that and I have to not offend you you know or do things that are gonna turn you against me so it's not like you have to make everybody like you but you have to understand every person that you deal with and what makes them tick and what makes them an individual sometimes you do have to alter yourself and and how you talk to a person depending on who they are and I'm not you're not bipolar this
is where the argument gets gets sidelined and is and it's not right when you are in your daily life and you meet Jordan Peterson for instance you talk to him a certain way and when you meet somebody else who maybe you don't respect as much you suddenly become another person I'm saying you're not aware of how deeply you are acting in your everyday religions I agree with that you're always shifting your persona depending on who you meet you'll notice in your own life there'll be people you meet who make you kind of aggressive you'll be
very aggressive and assertive in them and other people you meet will make you very intimidated and you'll be the exact opposite you change depending on the people that you're with that's sort of natural that's how we are but you're not aware of that you're not aware of how much you are actually are you saying to be in the equilibrium the most wins like regardless of what you're sitting with or still have to make something just missed no matter once it him with yeah that's what I've brought up the Lyndon Johnson story the irradiance of Lyndon
Johnson as a communicator was that he tailored his message to every different person that he met he wasn't the same with Hubert Humphrey as he was to dick Russell as he was to John F Kennedy he was a master that always sort of shifting depending on on the vulnerabilities and the values of the person he was dealing with so you need to deal with people as individuals people are complex we like to simplify that some more than others some more the nervous but everyone is more flexing you think yes and we like to simplify them
so when we're dealing with someone we think we have a snap judgment about them they're like this or that yeah but they're more complicated than you think and so the more you can figure out what makes them different what makes them an individual the better your chances of having the ability to influence them influence is an important part of this book and some people might think that that's kind of something evil that I'm that I'm being very Machiavellian but as I've made the point from the 48 laws of power there's no worse feeling in life
than the fact that you can have no influence over the people around you that you can influence your children or your spouse or your boss or your colleagues we all want the ability to have to persuade people to have to be able to move them in some direction so there's nothing evil about that in my opinion you know I'm with you there so I'm by the way Lyndon Johnson seems to be a guy you like to write a lot about because you've written about him before it's truly at how he went on a run and
he ran for office and how the day after he got elected the next day he was hospitalized from exhaustion because he works hard I think he talked about that in war in 33 strategies or chapter four I think it's maybe chapter four or five one the first few chapters that you said you know throw everything got one at gold death ground Stern death cloud strata which is a sickest ran out of all of them that's my favorite strategy that you have I agree with that strategy but do you think sometimes a person being way too
ambitious because you know Linda knew from day one to be a president yeah it wasn't like it was a unknown thing like everybody knew he wanted to be president do you think Russell sitting down with him and him finally being able to trust somebody say listen I don't have a bigger motivation than you I can't I'm not trying to be a president I can help you get to the next level do you think the moment he felt like Russell's coming from a standpoint of really wanted to give him some direction and help him out he
put his guards down and say let me just speak to this guy and allow him to counsel me a little bit you think him learning how to tame his ambitious in a way that a lot other people to want to counsel him helped him eventually become a president you know some of the most aggressive powerful people in history had incredibly high levels of ambition and they had to learn to control that on their rise to the top that's how people become successful is by their ability to channel their energy so you have to be aware
that the game is social that the the winners in life have a wider base of operation they have more supporters they have more allies than other people you're not going to get very far in life if you're alienating everyone around you right you have to learn self-control I mean all my books are about learning how to control yourself you're asking me how you learn to control yourself it's baby steps it's little things it's I mean I have all sorts of lessons in all of my books like if you're angry about something you don't act on
your anger you wait 24 hours 48 hours before sending that email before yelling at someone these are little steps you take to learn to control that if you're highly ambitious and you show too much of it sometimes it's good to show ambition but you need to show a certain amount not too much to frighten people well that's what these books are about they're being self-aware that in a certain situation you enter an office 30 people and you're suddenly show that you want to be like the number 1 person you're gonna have find your path really
difficult in life but if you show that you don't have any ambition no one will respect you so you have to hit that problem God and you learn how to do that you learn by your mistakes you learn by the people you've pissed off that you've alienated and you learn self-control powerful I've was the on the board of directors of a publicly traded company run by an entrepreneur who was very successful but who had no self control he couldn't control himself in an interview he when he was interviewed by a reporter he would talk about
his sex life he would see had no he had no ability to censor himself and he got angry got angry he yelled at people he baited so many enemies that he ended up destroying himself I was part of the group that got fired him as the CEO of the company and then the company just completely tanked because of that I see that all the time he's looking on that with Elon Musk you have a person like that who has no self control and it becomes a problem and so what do you what do you think
I would Elon Musk is do indeed are you saying Elon Musk is somebody that has fully lost control or is Elon Musk a person who is going through logical people trying to tame his creativity and they're clashing together because these guys are looking at profits this guy's thinking about change in the world yeah but what happens is like your ego gets in the way I've seen people like that they think that nothing they cannot be challenged they think so highly of themselves that they can't stand anybody challenging them so yeah you look you created a
publicly traded company now if you don't want people to challenge you if you don't want the difficulties that come with a publicly traded company then don't do it it's very simple if you don't want those kind of walls those obstacles that people are gonna put up then don't do it but he made that decision and once you make that decision and you're a strategist you're not just an entrepreneur but you're a leader and a business person you have to make compromises you have to control what you tweet the car business is an extremely difficult business
it depends on mass producing something at a reasonable price and so you have to have a scale that you can that you can manage and he never really had that he didn't build his company up in an organic slow fashion he was too ambitious he went too quickly I saw that with the man who I was the I was on the board of directors he expanded too quickly she gets back to your ambition thing so you have to be careful and you have to be a strategist in life and I think someone like Elon Musk
lacks a degree of self control so who would you think would be a good strategist in the business world are your opinions the same way with a guy like Jeff Bezos yes he's extremely smart I read an article recently about the guy who took over I believe its Best Buy he's really smart he's doing an incredible job in an industry that's that's dying you know a large store that selling technology that's terrible business to be in he's extremely wise and how he treats his employees and how he built his business slowly I think Reed Hastings
is a great example he's made some mistakes but he's built I think he's quite a smart strategy would he do my Bezos do you think Bezos is a great strategist yeah he's almost - greatest strategist what does that mean well that means I'm not necessarily in favor of monopolies like that I think there's some dangers to it he understood that you can go five ten years without it making any money without any profit but as long as you expand the brand and you get people addicted to what you can give them then he thought long
term he was a visionary he thought in terms of 10 to 15 years and if I have any fault with business leaders as they don't have that ability to look past the quarterly report he was willing to lose a lot of money knowing that he was building something extremely powerful he's a great strategy so what's the difference in your mind between an Elon Musk and a Jeff Bezos Elon Musk is more of a visionary but he's not a practical person he's not he's not an ABC type person he's not able to I think build something
that's sustainable we'll see but I think he got - he was too much of in a hurry mm-hmm and he believed too much in his own myth and he thinks that anything he touches is gonna be brilliant and great he doesn't know his own limits besos would make mistakes and he would kind of learn from his mistakes he's a humbler person in a way although it probably has a pretty big issue by now Elon Musk isn't seem like somebody who's learning from his mistakes I don't know I could be wrong but I think he's someone
who's a little bit out of control why don't we lead into the toxic different toxic types if you don't mind I'm gonna read this part here this chapter is determine the strength of people's characters so you talk about the toxic characters and then you're going to a strong character I kind of want to highlight that as well but uh you know prior to doing that I want to read this part to you and what you say in the book you say the weak character begins from the opposite side they are easily overwhelmed by circumstances making
them hard to rely on they are slippery and evasive worst of all they cannot be taught because learning from others implies criticism this means you will eventually hit a wall and dealing with them they may appear to listen to your instructions but they will simply revert to what they think is best you talk about the hyper perfectionist then he talked about the relentless rebel the personalized er the drama magnet the big talker the sexualize er the pampered Prince pleaser Savior the easy moralizer and I'm reading this I'm like oh my gosh you know he I
had a little bit of that this phase of my life and this was a little yeah I mean I'm reading it it's like a partner like maybe this is a little bit of me and so we said then I said sure which one he thinks this is me and we're going through a nano planet I send the text message of these eight pages they're like 40 people and I wanted them to me and said what is your takeaway from this and I saw some people's response sometimes you know I sent her to 40 people and
I just said what do you think about these pages and some people's respond was well it makes me know how to deal with a few people in my life all right and then some people's respond was I don't see anyone as me okay okay no problem and then some people were like wow I can see some of my flaws and it was so interesting on how people read some of these pages so toxic types why don't you talk a little bit about these different toxic types there's no one more dangerous than than a person who
has no self awareness that can't see who they are because that gives them license to do whatever they want and feel justified so I want you to become aware of perhaps you have these tendencies yourself the ability to judge people's character maybe one of the most important chapters in the book but one of the most important skills you can develop in life because think about it you are constantly in a situation in life in which you have to decide on whether you want to associate with this person or not you want to hire them as
an employee you want to vote for them for president you want to marry them you want them to be your friend we've all been in situations where we thought somebody was a certain way and then a year later or a few months later we discover a whole other side to their personality and it's not good and we're surprised and were disappointed and we tend to blame them as if they were fooling us people leave traces of who they are you're just not picking up the signs I say in this chapter nobody ever does anything once
if somebody has done a bad deed or you see them mistreating somebody else and then they'll come back and say oh it just came over me I had this happen once I'm not that's not who I am you'll believe them you should not ever believe them you should realize that people have patterns when they do something bad there probably have done it before and we'll do it again so these are two types of people who have certain patterns and I want you to be able to pick them up and you were making the distinction between
strong and weak characters a weak character can't stand any kind of criticism they can't learn from situations their their ego is too fragile and a strong person can adapt and can take criticism let's say you sent that out to 40 employees and you I thought what you said was you wanted them to assess you as a leader through the prism of no I did that with the people I work with on a daily basis like I did that with Mari I did that my wife I did on what people I said which one you think
is me that's a sign of a strong character yeah and that's a sign of someone who was a good leader I have a quote in there from Schopenhauer that fools do not show up wearing a cap and bells and evil destructive people don't have horns on their head they've learned to disguise himself so really toxic people have learned since an early age that if they just simply display their ugly behavior they'll turn off people and so they learn to be charming and they learn to be kind of seductive and they wear a mask that disguises
you from the reality is it the fact that every by 100 percent of people fall under one of these toxic types no no so there are people that don't fall under any of these toxic types we all have a little bit of look that's what I'm saying so I have a little bit of the hyper perfectionist in there I can see that I can see that because I can see that cuz how many years have you and I've been talking about writing this book I mean I remember one time you and I spoke and you're
like Pat if I have one other person your mother had just called you that day and she said how you doing with the book and you were upset you said if my mother calls me one more time asking me how the book is looking I'm gonna lose it I don't want anybody asks me about the book so you were at 300 books to write this book over 300 books to write this book I can see that but what I want to know is the following okay one almost all of us have a part of the
toxic types the perfection as a relentless rebel personalized er drama magnum big talker sexualized or pampered friends pleaser Savior easy moralizer etc etc right we all have it we do okay is the key self-awareness and then have somebody give counsel to you or is it self you like can you address it yourself you know what I'm saying is that something not maybe I need to sit down and consult with anybody because how I view myself is obviously you know 9 out of 10 times different than how other people view me would you agree with that
definitely so do you think we almost need somebody else who knows us very well to give us their feedback with us willing to take it well it's a question of both it's a great question it's good to get feedback it's just sometimes you can't trust people how you really like people will be political with you particularly you as a CEO of a great company they may not be very honest they may be afraid to be honest with you your wife maybe less so but even she has her limits even she knows that she doesn't want
to she needs to please you or stay on your good side so you need to have the ability to do both the the greatest sign is when you've had an interaction with people and it didn't go the way you expected and the person was colder than than you thought maybe they were offended are you gonna go back home and Gothica as an [ __ ] [ __ ] him what an idiot you know are you gonna go home are you gonna say what did I do wrong was I being too dramatic yeah was I being
too personal in this situation was I moralizing too much can you go home and self reflect and say well maybe I have some of these problems that's the difference between you and the toxic type the toxic type can't go through that process let's say that the quality in a person is almost like a metal there's the word tensile if you're a strong person you can bend a little bit that metal if it if it bends a little bit is actually stronger people who are weak can't take any kind of criticism can't look at themselves their
ego is very fragile they're gonna wilt under any kind of challenge okay so let's go through the process on when you talk about the superior character right because you talk about then it's incredible he explained it say I'm somebody to have one of these toxic personalities right masks that I wear due to upbringing mother like when you tell the story about how Howard Hughes was raised with a mother that almost was all over him and loved on him he couldn't do anything wrong and a dad wanted him to have a certain set of standards to
continue the family legacy and then he didn't want to be dependent and I don't want to be in an end they died in and boom he's left to do this and he's a technical guy but he's not really a businessman and a visionary in a leader you're explaining all that other stuff but see I'm somebody I read it and I said I got three of them and it concerns me and I want to change and I see a trend all the kind of people I attract or the kind of people I keep losing in my
life right like I remember one time I dated three girls in span of four years they were all the same like why am i attractive this problem in my life and I said one day I'm sometimes like oh describe these girls do nowadays I'm like dude it's not these girls nowadays it's you so then I came from this standpoint then I said dude I am NOT playing around I got a who the hell this guy is right because I wouldn't let my own daughter marry a guy like me that was my biggest challenge oh hey
so I'm staying single for a while I gotta figure myself out how does somebody who knows this to go to the superior character so what processes do I need to go through the main thing is is knowing that you have that quality see like if you don't think that you have they say you are a hyper perfectionist and I have those tendencies but you don't know you're not aware of it you don't think that you have that problem you're never gonna be able to stop it you're never gonna be able to control it so 90%
of the game is your self-awareness so when you get in a situation the next time where your tendencies I said make it plain in the book that we have a lower in the higher self the lower self is this kind of animal part of us that makes us act without thinking that makes us fall into patterns that makes us get emotional that makes us take the path of least resistance and we're constantly falling for that because it's easier it's the animal part of our nature if you're aware of this part of you if you're aware
that you have these tendencies then you can begin to control them but I don't want people to think that this is that you have to aim too high you're not trying to become Gandhi or something we have our flaws and we have our limitations so you are aware that you have a pattern with certain women okay three of them I can bet you that there was probably a fourth woman that you were about to fall for or maybe this have solutely okay and maybe you did but then at that point you realized oh here I'm
doing it again yes all right I get to step in it takes time yeah when you make mistake when you have a painful relationship a painful a bad interaction you step back and you say is this a pattern in my life now with that awareness you can begin to break that pattern you talked about creativity and you know having people give you some counsel and feedback two days ago to a chip Wilson I don't know if you know with chip Wilson is founder of Lululemon oh he's worth three point nine billion dollars and so you
know we get along when we talk politically we may go at it for a long time and have some credible conversations together but I always walk away saying this is my friend we have a relationship together the same way Patrick a hundred percent I totally respect you and I'm 100 percent great CEO and thank you you're a wise leader I appreciate a toxic type thank you so much thank you so the party's said to me that was very interesting and I walked away he said a true creative person is never happy because whatever product he
creates he's never happen after you after he produces it but he said the challenge sometimes is there's now there's a Board of Directors drive-away creativity in the company so as the company gets around longer all they want to do is profits or fire people you know raise costs and do this it's almost like printing money to make the economy look good but then you know you're gonna have ahead few years later and so I asked them a question about how to get the creative person to deal with the logical people that are gonna tell you
trans look we can't be doing this last time we do we lost money all this other stuff how do you having studied so many different people and having studied so many different things where do you see the balance of a creative visionary Elon Musk knows he needs data he knows he needs to look at trends he knows he needs to sit down and talk to the logical people that they see numbers and the logical people know they meet Elon they need a guy that's gonna cast a vision of where to go next how do you
make those two personalities work from the Elon Musk perspective he has to be aware that he has limits that he's not great at certain things that he knows how to come up with a great idea for the Tesla car but how to make - how to build it to a scale that it can become like a General Motors he's in over his head he's gonna need help he decided to go to become a publicly traded company so he could raise money on a different level than if he were private so you need to realize that
you're dependent on other people alright so if you're Elan musk and you're just gone public you're aware that you have your limits you aware that you can be a bit egocentric alright Who am I gonna bring onto the board that's a key decision am I gonna bring on a bunch of yes-men we're just gonna kowtow to everything I say which I think he started off with a board like that or am I gonna being bring people on who were just numbers people who are gonna make my life miserable there were only about a quarterly report
and for boosting the price on on Wall Street or am I gonna be bringing smart strategic people who were gonna cover for my flaws so a great leader realizes and I talked a lot about this in the war book for great generals know that they have flaws and limitations and the people they hire are designed to cover those flaws so if I'm not great at execution I'm gonna hire people to serve on the board who are practical who have a track record but who are not meddlers so it's a key element there is who you
choose to be on your board that's a tough thing and he talked about that let me tell you it is such a tights easier to say it then tougher to be in a situation because when you're hiring a boy I've been in the situation so I know how tough it is because you could hire someone who is like that and then they get on the board and they feel the pressure from being a publicly traded company and for getting in trouble with shareholders yeah Who am I beholden to the shareholders or to the CEO and
at some point you're legally responsible that's shareholders and you start changing who you were so it's a difficult decision and a lot of it's based on the character of the people that you choose but the main thing would be for the guy that I worked for and my board was like Elon Musk and he could not be aware of his own flaws and limitations he thought he could do the whole thing he built this company from one store to hundreds of stores around the world why should it why does anybody know more than I do
you know and I told him beginning from day one look you have limitations there are things that you're not good at let me hold them down yeah that was his religion we held that conversation he just wouldn't listen he loves me because of the 48 laws the power he brought me onto that way because he wanted more power he didn't want to he wanted a yes-man he wanted something just to validate his ego so the Elon Musk thing is who do you choose to be your lieutenants it's not a science because once you get on
the board people change you know but you you have to have a mix of people from different backgrounds and and create it's like choosing a basketball team you gotta have the right kind of migrant mix and then from the board point of view you have to understand that this is the creative person this is the person who's driving the company you can't put straight jackets on them you can't tell them to be someone that they're not off to do for them it's extremely tough because you're feeling shareholder pressure so in my case the guy who
was this visionary CEO he was brilliant he's a brilliant entrepreneur he's knew he knew how to design clothes and the board was trying to constrain him and always like not giving him the money that he needed he wanted to constantly borrow more money to expand etc they were putting all sorts of limitations on him that were making so he couldn't use his strengths so it's the fact that the the board members and the CEO are aware of their own limitations now that's easier said than done doubt about it because I'm in these meetings all the
time but I won't read this part to you okay so two things and then let's go into envy and I got some questions I want to ask you about persuasion and possibly even an event that happened in Argentina two weeks ago when a guy got up and gave his opinion about how Millennials should change and they don't understand this and they don't understand that and I'm like this is this is a complete different perspective he's coming from maybe what your opinions are about some generational how everybody has certain debt so you talk about here in
the book you obviously talk a lot about the narcissistic leader but you say if anyone dares to challenge the narcissist they are more prone than others to go into deep narcissistic rage they are hyper sensitive they also like to stir up constant drama as a means to justify their power they are the only ones who can solve problems they create constant drama also give them more opportunities to be center of attention the work place is never stable under the door under their direction how does one who is going through this now you and I talked
about it earlier when we talk with presidents and I said there's not a single president we've had that doesn't have a slight element of narcissism you know Trump has it he's CEO has to see your hazard right and and there could be a good thing but learning how to control and come to the next level how do you prevent this from happening from constantly creating problems to solve if there are not no problems okay so I have a definition of narcissism that's a little different from other people's normally we think of a nurse's to someone
who loves themself and I'm actually saying that a narcissist is a person who doesn't love themself sufficiently so in order to get through life we have to have a degree of self esteem we have to think that we're worthy of certain things we have to have a sense of inner worth if we don't have that kind of bedrock from within we constantly need attention and validation from other people right I need attention I need to stir trouble I need to feed my ego I can't get it from myself I have to get it from other
people mm-hmm that's a classic what I call it deep narcissist and that's why they cause so many problems in life and I measure it I say that imagine it like a water line and here at the top is someone who's not a narcissist here at the middle is kind of an average person and as you sink deeper into narcissism you're more and more self-absorbed you can never get up to that mid-level point where you can start thinking about other people at the high point you're someone who's very empathetic you're able to get inside the mind
of other people you understand their moods their emotions most of us fall at that range in maybe 60% 50 being the middle line we have moments of narcissism where we get self-absorbed particularly we have problems and we we turn inward but then we have enough self-esteem because of our parents because of our background that we raise ourselves back up and we don't keep continually sinking into that narcissism we want to get higher we want to get to that level where we're able to be more empathetic the deep narcissist has sunk so far below that they
can never get up to even to that halfway point there's so self-absorbed they're so insecure they constantly must stir up trouble they need to be the center of attention if to be the center of attention means to create a great work of art that's but sometimes to be the center of attention means to mess with people to create problems to stir up trouble and to be that at the center of that once somebody is at that level like a twenty or thirty I'm these are just arbitrary now sure there's nothing that's gonna raise them back
up that's who they are there's nothing they can do there's almost nothing other people can do they are they are what's the word they're damaged goods a lot of nothing that can happen I don't think so Wow and so those are some strong words right there well I have a story actually a story that got cut from the book if you got my bonus material if you preorder the laws of human nature you get some bonus material there's a story I cut that I gave you about Robert Oppenheimer the physicist who was a deep narcissist
who managed to kind of cure himself and the way he cured himself was through work instead of absorbing himself in getting attention he put all of his energy into the Manhattan Project and into later becoming a great physicist sort of a public figure he turned against nuclear arms etc he sort of cured himself you can perhaps cure yourself through your work through getting out of this room getting your attention through what you achieve rather than through what you stir up from other people but generally once you get past that the low level there's nothing you
can do because you're addicted to that you're addicted to getting attention from other people when you're in the business world you have to deal with so many different personalities yeah and it first starts off on you realizing K why am i attracting people like this well maybe because they're like you right and they're true you're attracting your own self and then you change oh wow attracting quality people what's going on over here well there's a reflection and that's taking place as well and sometimes as I'm coaching I'm sitting and going through these conversations I think
about some of the things I saw happening early on in my career one of the things you wrote in this book page 47 okay you said moralize errs because you know sometimes we tie my narcissism bipolar and people say this person they're like this they're narcissistic they're this moralizer to try to separate themselves out and denounce the narcissist in the world today are often the biggest narcissist of them all they love the sound of their voice as they point fingers and preach we are all on the spectrum of self-absorption creating the self that we can
love and healthy development there should be no stigma attached to it right the sole idea of I'm above narcissism and I can't believe somebody would be some I like this now I think they are some of the biggest nor they are they are in other words if I write about aggression or I write about Envy or I write about narcissism every single human being that has ever lived is inside that circle we all have that quality and the worst type of people are those who say oh no it's not me I'm not a narcissist I'm
not aggressive I never feel Envy it's not possible I explain why we are all narcissists why we're all self-absorbed it comes from the way that we are raised as children and how we need to feel validated for ourselves so people who claim that they're not narcissistic are generally very dangerous I've seen them manipulate and divide in ways that just makes no sense to me and I think they're extremely powerful when it comes down to persuasion I was like you had some personal experience yes many of them can you share one so the campaign let's just
say if I'm dealing with you and you did something that you have to make a tough decision okay they'll go campaign their sympathy and not their sympathy their unfairness like that word it's so unfair and I don't know how to handle this and I'm coming from this place and I'm trying to and I'm you know going to church and I'm going through this and I'm really and then people like oh my gosh Patrick you're being unfair and I can't believe you're doing this coming from that and maybe you're not understanding on this and up and
like wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute this is an entirely game being played and in a year and a half late everybody realized it was a game being played and this isn't just one instance this has happened multiple different times here's the crazy thing these are good people and typically the part that I seat for moralize errs leads me to the chapter that you're talking about here next I think I think more passive aggressive hardcore but demoralize errs to me are people that are driven by Envy that's the challenge for me with
moralizer x' most people that come from a place of moralizer x' are now willing to be that guy shoppin heimer or the guy talk matter was a narcissist at the highest level and says rather than me being at a level 20 there you explained it kind of like the book power versus force I don't know if you've read power versus force I think you would love that book so rather than me you know trying to be this narcissist I'm gonna put all my energy into work and see what I can build and I look what
he did later on he was against nuclear all this other stuff I think moralizer x' are not willing to put the work that's the challenge they want that same attention that some of these people get in their lives with the work but they're frightened of putting the work and so let's talk about signs of envy okay so again I read this and one of my favorite things you do in this book it's like speaking to my father when I go up and I say let me tell you what this person said let me tell what
that person there let me tell you what this person said a my dad would come back and says but you did this but how about what you did but you caused this but what inside only how could you say that I'm your son but you did this why are you only looking at it from your perspective right why are you thinking it's the other person right there's a part of it that's on you as well and that's a tough place could be father oh he is so when I read signs of envy it takes me
back on every element of myself when I was being extremely lazy and somebody was passing me up and I had some signs I'm like oh my gosh all this other stuff like when I was in high school or certain ages my life and I'm like I realize how much of this can apply to everybody so here's what you talk about science of NV poisonous praise backbiting the push-pull limit right and then you go envious types the leveler which is sick I'm gonna read the leveller you say the leveler is the following when you first meet
them Levellers can seem rather entertaining and interesting they tend to have a wicked sense of humor they are good at putting down those who are powerful and deflating the pretensions the pretentious they also seem to have a keen nose for injustice and unfairness in the world but where they differ from the work from the people who are genuine empathy for underdogs is that Levellers cannot recognize or appreciate excellence almost anyone particularly those who are life they have delicate egos those who have achieved things in life make them feel insecure they are highly sensitive to feelings
and inferiority they envy initially feel like just when you explain Levellers to me was like unbelievable what what prompted you want to write about this that's one second how does one watching this who maybe secretly deals with envy but they don't want to publicly talk about the fact they deal with their because it's one of the seven deadly sins Envy right how does one handle that how does one deal with that handle one's own in theater from other people no no no forget about other people so first let's address my own I'm a moralizer right
I keep playing the card of well life is not all about this you know my connection and it's this and I'm trying to be such a moralizer type of human being right and these people are too ambitious and these people are too much about wanting all the attention and I don't I don't want a lot of it I most people who are like that there's not no advice I can give them that's who they are they're locked into that there are certain people who are called envir types who because of their childhood they feel that
they always deserve more they're entitled to have more from people they feel like they are privileged somehow they're not willing to go out and do the work they want other people to give give give more nothing's ever gonna change them it's best that you recognize them and stay away from such types I saw you so they can be very destructive in the end of that chapter I have a key I have a section on how to use in your own envy so the number first point is to recognize that you feel it to not be
in denial this book is about how you tend to be in denial Envy is one emotion that almost no one will ever admit to because to admit to feeling envy is to admit that you feel inferior to another person we don't like to do that we want to feel superior so no one will ever admit that they acted out of envy you Patrick Amy Robert we have done things out of life out of envy it's natural team nature chimpanzees they've done studies chimps and primates showed signs of envy what does it come from it comes
from the fact that we're a social animal and we're constantly comparing ourselves to others does he have more than I do is he getting more respect than I'm getting it's his car better than mine is he have more perks and privileges than I'm getting how did you get into that University and I didn't we're all doing it stop denying that it's happening it's how the brain functions once you're aware that you actually feel Envy and you're finally honest with yourself then you can move beyond it instead of constantly feeling Envy for someone who's powerful turn
that into something competitive instead of like being angry and deciding to sabotage them why don't you work on becoming better than them using the fact that you feel inferior to this person should impale you to excel to be become better than so you're saying let the feeling of envy make you competitive to one out do and out compete and out working out is you're not going to get rid of envy it's the silliest idea that you're going to somehow be Gandhi and you're not gonna feel it you're gonna feel it but turn it into something
productive and positive over you know where you actually achieve something yeah instead of tearing people down and criticizing them and moralizing build something in Excel use it as a force to make you competitive you always tend to compare yourself to people who are more powerful than you why don't you look down on the scale and look at people who were less powerful than you and compare yourself to them so that you could begin to appreciate what you have you know oh he's got so much better parents than I do I wish I had a mother
like that well look at your friend who had the worst kind of mother and feel appreciative of what you have it wasn't that bad so look at the other side and compare yourself to people who have a much worse than you and also instead of feeling there's a thing called schadenfreude a-- which is a form of envy where if someone says that they've had a bad experience it almost makes you feel happy inside you get joy from other people's pain if your friend doesn't get hired for a job for a moment you feel almost kind
of happy because what did you say that's called that's clawed and fried a kind it's German for joy in pain feeling joy in other people's pain it's a very big component of envy you like to read about other people's failings in social media was the most popular subject some powerful person who has a foible who fell everyone loves that they feed off it's a feeding frenzy that's schadenfreude well you want to have the opposite you want to develop what we call mid Friday which is if somebody has good news you actually feel joy for them
you don't feel pain that you don't feel envious you actually share their joy you open up your spirit these are not easy there no no Joe Phil Hellmuth talked about that Phil him you talked about how a poker player poker player feel um you talked about how guy stole money from them and he sat there and start thinking about positive thoughts about the guy and eventually ended up being able to have a relationship with this guy because he conditioned himself to start liking this guy rather than having to resent and it was the hardest thing
he had to overcome and then once he overcame that then he ended up becoming the biggest bracelet winner he's got 15 of them now so that idea what you're talking about as easier said than done extremely different but we work the right word conditioning you yes dishing yourself to stand you can train yourself to feel differently so so now let's talk about the other side so one is how to handle my own MB that have four others how about when there's other people that are envious of my game and what I'm doing how do I
handle that because especially in a competitive world when you come up I mean I'm sure a lot of Arthur's are not happy about the fact that every time you put an ink on paper you sell a New York Times bestseller I'm sure a guy like you experienced that as well I get it I get tons of envy so how do you handle it coming in as a person that's growing and doing bigger things in your life from friends family peers competitors well first of all you have to understand that that's what you're experiencing you know
people will disguise their Envy they will criticize you they will say oh Patrick you you cheated your way to the top or you did this out of the other your power you got to where you are out of some unfair means or you don't really deserve your success and you won't recognize that as envy they may be more subtle with their criticisms you'll think that they're just being critical of you but they're trying to be honest but in fact they are feeling deep them out of envy so the problem is when envy is occurring oftentimes
you don't recognize that that's what's going on you think that people are just don't like you or criticizing you as opposed to the fact that they are envious of your success so half the game is to recognize that people are feeling this emotion and to not get dragged down on to their level the other thing is to recognize the types of people who are toxic and Viers so everybody feels Envy so if your assistant or somebody or colleague has a [ __ ] comment to you that hurts you and that company you feel comes from
envy it's probably best to just let it go by to do the Phil Hellmuth's strategy and to not take it personally and to recognize that Envy is like poison ivy it's out there it exists there's nothing you can do about it everybody feels it just accept it in some people but then they're the toxic types who are gonna ruin your life they're gonna become your partner or your friend in order to wound you they feel Envy and they want it their strategy is they're gonna become your assistant or your colleague or your business partner or
your wife do that happens and they're gonna end up trying to sabotage you and ruin you that's their strategy so you have to recognize people who were prone to feeling a lot of envy and I give give you a kind of a code for you give me a summary give me a bit up because sometimes you have a blind spot right love it love creates blind spots right flattery creates blind spot you know all of these things what a blind spot so how do you what do you look for okay well there's there's there's a
very simple level I have a chapter on nonverbal communication very big on that because we humans communicate a lot through our body language and Vere's will reveal themselves through what we call micro expressions and I have a strategy you know this philosopher advised if you tell somebody suddenly you suspect that they're an interview and you tell them of some good news that has happened to you for a split second you will notice a slight frown on their face a slight sign of unpleasantness like they swallowed a lemon then of the skies the smile I swear
if you're aware of it you'll see it on the other hand if you tell them something bad happened oh I got that I didn't get that job or I lost you know the mortgage in my house for a moment you'll detect a slight smile us might look of pleasure it only lasts for half a second there's a guy named Paul Ekman who writes about emotions and he's coined the expression micro-expressions and he literally can show you photographs of what they look like they're very fast and very because people can't help but feel a little bit
of excitement when you tell them bad news or feel a little bit of pain when you tell them something good about yourselves then they disguise it so that's one way another way is that people are praising you and it's too effusive it doesn't feel justified it's like they've you've only known them for a week and they're saying God Patrick you were the greatest person I've ever met you're so wise you're so it's not natural to say for people to be like that it's natural for us when we meet someone to be a little wary around
them but if someone is suddenly praising you and it doesn't seem justified anything that you've done or said they're probably disguising some Envy so if you know somebody who tells you gossip gossipers or envy types so they share with you some gossip about somebody else in the business and it's okay everybody gossips but if they're there do it a little too awful it's a little too strong a little too salacious they're probably it's some point gonna be gossiping about you and so that's a sure sign that that they feel Envy toward the people that they're
trying to criticize this is why I say this guy's manure watching the first one we gotta order this book and read this entire book cover to cover huh I don't read his books I study his books I don't just read this guy's books in the world of business if you don't do realize your number one product is people you're gonna be left behind so go one more sign about the envy think when somebody's doing it to you look said the whole thing your timing when you ask a question and say you won't believe what just
happened in my life and we just had a big promotion to see that subtle half a second or you know my wife and I just had the worst argument ever I think things are going in the wrong direction in a subtle thing to see right it could be a microexpression or it could also be where they go with you on that no I'm talking about you can actually test people's n vehicle my wife and I just had the worst argument she's such a [ __ ] and then they go and they try and subtly make
you feel even worse about your wife they're trying to sabotage you and destroy you natural reaction for me if you said I have this terrible fight with my wife because I want to try and maybe help you repair it get over it deal with it this envir is gonna want to make you feel worse and you're not gonna recognize that that's what they're up to they're gonna go god your wife is such a [ __ ] you really should think about leaving her you know even though you have children or whatever or though they're gonna
find OD she was like that in that argument I saw her and she was like this and she's worse than you think so it's not just the microexpression fuel on fire it's what they do afterwards or if you have some success it's not just the microexpression they'll find a way of devaluing it so for instance for me personally I had friends who I suddenly had success with the 48 laws of power and they'll go boy that book is sure making a lot of money and the implication was I mean they said it differently was I
wrote the book to make money you know as a put-down but they're coining it as kind of half praise right well that's a sure sign because really what they're saying is you're just a soulless hack who wrote your book not because you believe in it because you want to make money so those kind of comments that get under your skin that make you think about yourself and maybe I'm not so good is actually designed by the other we live in a culture do you call it out do you call it out well that happens or
do you just kind of put it store it and say got it move on 95% of the time I store it and move on but sometimes I give them a comeback where I put it back on them and I sort of turned the tables because I don't see you just taking it all the time well sometimes you can't help it take it it's like a friend or somebody you don't want to offend and there's no point in getting but I have my subtle digs my way of getting at them you know I don't take it
all the time so you know here's what I did I had I had a person that we a long time ago I work with and every time we had some kind of button a good news it would be like hey look at the email we just got this person wants to partner with us and do this yeah it's probably fake email oh look at this other person they want to do this is odd they probably would never do anything like yeah and then you know what I realized I got together with a couple of my
teammates and I said listen moving forward no good news goes to this person yeah no good news goes to this person just keep it we'll deal with it and we'll move on because every time we share it there's a negativity that comes back and we don't know where it's coming from it kind of adds up last thing here you know you and I Robert we can sit down two hours feels like five minutes and I don't even know time goes by right so a couple weeks ago man Argentina and I'm at this insurance conference and
we're staying at this palace and it's a nice place born Osiris for being spoiled and having a good time and all these seals of insurance companies over there and on one of the sessions they start asking about working with Millennials and how do you get insurance agents Millennials to become insurance agent so first all you have to realize life insurance is as boring as it gets you know for us when we do what we do it's not the most exciting industry and it's been terrible because a lot of people don't how to connect with the
next generation that's been the biggest challenge the industry is an insane industry more money's made in this industry and lives are changed because that's a great product today insurance carriers are making products that a person can take advantage of while you're alive so doctor tells you got terminal illness or chronic illness you had six hundred thousand dollar life insurance policy now they're giving you the six hundred thousand dollars to enjoy while you're alive before you die things have innovated but they don't know how to connect with the generations right so you study generations and you
see what happens boomers Gen X Millennials all these other things what are you seeing happening with a certain spirit that's with these generations that we ought to pay attention to to you know be able to know that next generation needs this so we can communicate with these guys what do we do with that people in a generation don't are gonna think differently than you are thinking it's a natural process this goes back thousands of years the oldest recorded bit of history on some tablets from sumaré like 9,000 years ago are these young people nowadays are
so worthless this is the worst generation they're not they're gonna make our country fall apart in other words the present generation always thinks the previous generation is screwed up not as smart not as together soft whatever mm-hmm and I think that the older generation is all also a problematic everyone thinks that their generation is superior so you want to be aware of the fact that if you're dealing with Millennials they're not inferior they're not superior they're just of a different generation it's like an animal that evolves in a different way and so you want to
be aware of what makes their life different and where their values come from if you're a gen Xer you valued more than anything individualism you grew up in that period where your parents were from the 60s generation and they tend to not be the best parents and they often left you alone eh yours might have been different but that was the culture that we lived in so people in the gen-x generation this has been proven by studies attempted to be much value individualism and self-reliance Millennials are not like that at all they grew up in
the period of 9/11 and the crash of 2008 they are very much more fearful about it they don't let necessarily believe that they control their own destiny they think that there are a lot of forces out there that they can't control particularly when it comes to like Wall Street and things like that and so they're very wary and they're not so so appealing to them as an individual as its kind of a gen Xer will fall on deaf ears they're much more attuned to the social realm to being around other people to causes Millennials are
really big on causes so you have to know their spirit and know that if you're going to try to appeal to them and sell life insurance you're gonna have to approach them from a totally different angle than you approach somebody who's a boomer or Gen X you have to adapt to their spirit and not feel superior to them so I explained in the book how you kind of create a profile of that generation they're also great books written about Millennials that you can get to understand them and get out of yourself and out of your
way of thinking they don't think the way that you and I think I when I grew up the first thing I wanted to do was leave my parents house when I was 18 get the hell out of the house and be on my own in college have everything for myself Millennials don't think that way they'd like to stay at home they're living in their house until they're 28 30 years old they're afraid of sometimes they're afraid of independence they don't want to own a car because it's gonna bring them down to make them more dependent
they're afraid of it that's not a moral judgment and I if I were millennial I would probably be the same way it's just different they have other positive traits besides that they're more community oriented than a lot of people from my generation or Gen Xers but you have to recognize what makes them different and not come at them from your moralizing perspective it's so amazing you say that because chip Wilson two days ago said the following he said I said your ideal customer you are so specific on who it is after research in this guy
it's a 32 year old woman born on September 28th who owns a cat isn't Mary takes care of her health but it's thinking about getting married but she doesn't have to that's his ideal customer and the moments energy that's his that's his customer yeah and the moment he identified that to understand how socially were changing all these things and listening to everybody talking about yoga help all these things he saw how things are changing and he capitalized on it yeah I think it's important to to know generationally one time Time magazine did an article I
think 25 years ago was titled a narcissistic generation and he said you know the Millennials are there says dad is this six pages they're saying all this other stuff but then at the end it says if you are saying that this generation is lazy they don't appreciate this they don't appreciate they don't appreciate this all you're saying is that you're getting older yes at one point you were like them yeah and I thought it was a great ending to an article with Time magazine so again Robert you and I can talk for hours and I
think everybody ought to read this book laws of human nature and matter of fact one of the things I would want to do is if you wouldn't mind signing a couple copies of the book anybody out there who goes buys the book on Amazon and you post a picture of the fact that you purchased a book and you send it to us tweet it at Robert Greene and myself his handle is right underneath this picture and you see my handle as well we're gonna send how about to sign copies we sent to folks as long
as they purchased a copy they tweet you and I you're like one of them and we'll send a copy to them if you're okay with that you okay with that okay and if you haven't watched the first sit-down Robert and I did that had to do with 40 laws of power and 33 strategies of war I highly recommend you click on the link somewhere here on the page to go watch that interview as well because it'll go different direction that we went with his prior books that he's read I think you don't need to just
order one book I think whoever that's a true value Taner go order those five books every single one of them mass 333 strategies for T lost art of seduction and this 150th lot is a book I know you'll like a lot but I'm talking entrepreneurs those five I recommend you order every single one I'm slowly but surely start reading them having said that brother thank you so much every time truly thanks so much really enjoy it yes thank you
