Michael Saylor on Bitcoin $100k to $13M and MicroStrategy’s Monster Run

[Music] well welcome to an extraordinarily special on the tape Dan Nathan gami but we're joined by my friend Dan's friend and obviously the friend of the entire cryptocurrency Community the CEO of micro strategies Michael saor is joining us Michael thank you so much for being here yeah thanks for having me guys and we saw Michael uh earlier in the week Anthony scaramucci's book party you obviously wrote the forward for that you were funny in your comments saying that you know Anthony wrote This Book and I'm using sort of air quotes in writing it Anthony was

part of the book but he said at the end of it you know you should have one to 2% of your portfolio in Bitcoin and after basically you know writing this book he cames up with 2% you made the point wait a second if you're really passionate about this 2% is sort of a rounding error so let's start there yeah well I think that if you read an entire book of investment advice or financial advice you don't want someone to end the book saying I I don't have a solution for 98% of your problem but

here's an insurance policy one or two per is like buying an insurance policy but 20 30 40% 50% 75% is like solving the problem so I you know I I just said like I don't think you're G to come up with 50 good ideas and I I think that um the whole idea of diversification uh makes sense when you don't know the answer but you don't want to make a mistake but I think in the field of engineering and in many fields in life it's like when your kid uh is a good basketball player you

don't say I think you should split your time between archery and jogging and swimming and basketball and football and hockey and 16 other things just in case you tell them to focus on basketball and you build the plane out of aluminum and you don't diversify the steel beam into clay and bronze and balls of wood right if there's an answer there's an answer and you just tell someone the answer when you don't know the answer you're like yeah we go to Vegas and Gamble and pick anything but you know don't bet more than two% of

your money right don't don't you know so my point really is there's a disconnect between giving someone a piece of advice to make their life better and then saying but I 98% don't believe in it all right so let's go to the beginning and Dan mentioned how we met and I'll let the audience know so I think you would just sort of come to the realization you spent some time working on bitcoin and coming to the conclusion that this made a lot of sense you joined Morgan Brennan and me I was able to sort of

co-host power lunch with her it was one of your first interviews you did sort of in a meaningful way and you sort of outlined this vision for micro strategies and what you're going to do I think it's now three or four years later my math is a little squishy but let's just sort of split hairs a little bit and that plan is absolutely coming to fruition as we sit here you have now over 400,000 Bitcoin on your balance sheet I want to say at an average cost of about $58,000 or so you can correct me

if I'm wrong but everything you thought was going to happen is sort of playing out so let's start there and you know maybe you can talk about some of the things that you didn't see happening you did see happening uh some of the pitfalls along the way you know give us sort of that calendar that sort of timeline yeah I think um the middle of 2020 we're running a $500 million business with 500 million in cash generating 75 million in cash flow a year growing Z to 5% competing against Microsoft lockdowns hit uh our stock

has zero options uh $2 million of liquidity a day the options are worthless the stock is worthless we have no investor interest we're stuck in a in a competitive trap there's no way to crawl out of the competitive trap we've got 500 million in cash generating 4% interest and all of a sudden Jerome pal cranks that down to 0% interest and then everybody's locked in their home and I'm staring at and then I watch all the Magnificent Seven stocks double and then and then you realize that if you're sitting there all your capital is going

to be siphoned off by the Magnificent 7 all your human capital is going to be siphoned off by the Magnificent 7 right even if you have a good product it won't be a good product in five years once all your engineers quit and so we're kind of stuck in a trap so so at that point you know you have three choices you have a death just sell the company and a lot of people do 99% I had 100 competitors guys 99 of them or actually all hundred of them solds right you just exit uh or

slow depth I have my 500 million I'm just going to start to pay all my employees massive cash bonuses to not quit retention bonuses but you're just going to go through the cash at some point you're not you're not going to be able to get out of your hole uh you're just going to you're going to linger on as a zom or you take a risk and the and the risk is a transformational acquisition it's like you know when you buy VMware it's like C can you buy a company that's growing 20 to 40% a

year that's a that's a Monster World beater company and can you buy it for cash or buy it for stock and maybe you have a new lease on life and so I looked at you know option one I looked at option two and I thought well is there some monster company we can buy with our 500 million in cash because right now it's a liability and obviously I can't I couldn't find one but then I looked at Bitcoin and I thought Bitcoin looks like Facebook for money it looks like it looks like the global monetary

Network it looks like the dominant it looks like the Google or the Facebook and so I'm like what's the big Tech monster Network for money and Bitcoin looked like that for me so I thought hey maybe I can buy do a $500 million acquisition I buy 500 million of Bitcoin what if you could buy a company growing 60% a year at one times Revenue with cash that you don't need that that was the idea and and it was kind of out of frustration and Desperation but it was it was a strategic Hail Mary because your

choice is just sell the company give up and the company would have been sold for $6 a share in Enterprise Value okay6 doar a share after 30 years of life so we do that we get to the 500 million Bitcoin rallies the stock doubles the stock triples now we just have an opportunistic run uh we discover the convertible bond market and they want to give us 650 million in cash pretty much for free for free for not pretty much for free for free if I came to you and said I'll give you $650 million at

75 basis points go invest in something can you come up with an idea for something to invest in that yields more than 1% probably if you can't right you're not in business right probably you can't so we did that and Bitcoin rallied again and all of a sudden we were able to raise a billion for zero okay and then uh then we realized well might as well take another 500 million and we and we took a $500 million loan at 6% and we thought well bitcoin's gone up 60 we'll borrow it six we'll loan at

60 or Capt 54 you know and it moved around and then at some point some Banker called me and said you know you can do this ATM where you can actually sell equity in the market I said you're kidding me really that's possible uh and actually the greatest innovation of the past 30 years guys in the capital markets is the ATM shelf registration of equity because it allows an issuer to issue to sell shares per pursue to an investor you're basically on the same footing as anybody else it's a fair thing and for my entire

career if we wanted to sell $100 million of equity our stock would get hammered down 20% and so it felt pretty good to not get hammered 20% and be able to sell into the market whenever you want and so now we hit upon this uh this new stage where we realize we have a commodity that yields that returns more than the S&P index that um that we can buy by selling our stock so if if you know if you're an investor and I give you a return High higher than the S&P how much Capital are

you going to give me infinite so we started doing that we sold a billion dollars of that and the short of it is we went from a $500 million investment to1 billion of capital raise you know and the stock you know went up by a factor of 10 or 20 and then we got then we got to 2024 and 2024 was a you know trans by I skipped the crypto winter where everything crashed is from 66,000 to 16,000 but this is a half hour podcast so I'll just say it was a roller coaster we went

up to 66 down to 40 up to 66 down to 16 back but uh and that's all very colorful but the real point is we're buying Bitcoin with Equity with debt we're refinancing the debt we're we're at all points generally we're doing it in a creative way and we get to 2024 and um then discovered the value of volatility I mean really understand it because in January of 2024 Bitcoin isn't an asset class and and the second week the SEC approves those ETFs and then you start having the snide comments like well now we don't

need micro strategy anymore they're like just a proxy they're like a you know a clumsy ETF substitute we'll just put our money into the ETFs but what happened at the same time was the having was coming and all of the investors the ball Traders went through a secular rotation and they started selling the Bitcoin mining stocks and looking for something else to trade so if you track the liquidity in the options market and in the equity Market there was a major shift in q1 and early Q2 where a lot of the the volatility and the

options Traders and Equity Traders they basically hopped off a dozen uh Bitcoin mining companies onto micro strategy because the Bitcoin miners were going to the having where their revenues get cut in half so when that happened our options interest exploded and we became the number one options Market when the SEC approved the ETFs they didn't approve options okay so uh today our options Market is like $95 billion our options Market is is the same size as our market cap and then we discovered that the real strategic opportunity we had was we can construct a a

balance sheet of permanent Capital with leverage and uh and when you take Bitcoin and make it 100% of your of your stock you're going to trade probably if Bitcoin is trading with a 60 ball you're going to trade with a 75 ball just because of the uncertainty of what the management team is going to do like I have the option to sell Equity or not sell Equity or we might do something or not do something I have the option to do debt or not do debt that opt option is going to move you from 60

Vol to 70 or 80 Vol then if you actually execute the option by selling Equity at a premium or by issuing convertible bonds you move to 90 or 100 Vol so all of a sudden we had an equity trading with a 100 I think today it's like 120 ball basically double uh Bitcoin equity and now here's the big idea right uh the S&P is 15 AR 15 ball Bitcoin is 60 60 ball it has been that way for four years we take a company with permanent capital and we create something which is a 100 or

120 Vol 100 to 120 AR okay now that attracts all the options Traders all the arbitragers all the Bitcoin maximalists it becomes hot money uh you you know the call rate if you sell if you hold a dollar bill for 30 days you're getting uh s for 30 you're getting 480 basis points or something like that if you hold a million dollars with the S&P index for 30 days you can get like 15% interest by selling the 30-day calls at the at the market if you hold Bitcoin ibit for 30 days what you couldn't sell

the options until just recently but now you can sell them in generate about 100% interest if you sell the micro strategy call option at the market it's 220% interest rate okay just to hold the the the share um and so all of a sudden what we've done is we've created uh a levered uh a levered flywheel on top of a product which is already Forex as volatile and Forex as performant as the SNP the result is our liquidity explodes our options interest exploded and we do a convert bond in q1 a week later we do

another convert Bond that's the first time in history anybody ever did two convert bonds back to back two consecutive weeks then we do another one in Q2 then we do another one in Q3 then we do a billion dollars of ATM in Q3 and then we start to get into a Groove and we realize that at the end of the day you know uh the Market's going to Rally around some leader and you're either going to lead in a decisive way or you're going to sneak around and and apologetic be opportunistic or you're going to

hide and wait and so we just decided we're going to lead I mean John D rockerfeller decided to roll up the entire petrochemical industry and he bought out all of his competitors all of his customers all of his vendors and first he did it for for uh cash and he would they would say okay well pay me this he go to the bank he'd borrow the money and he'd give him the cash and at some point people in the industry said you know Standard Oil stock is worth more money than the cash and he just

started issuing the stock and Henry Flagler of course built Florida with Standard Oil stock and so there's this point in the market where the market decides it trust you and it wants to Rally behind you and we got to the point in October 30th and we just said look we're going to put the question to our shareholders do you want us to basically build this business or not and after 40 consecutive Bitcoin purchases after laying the foundation of a Bitcoin you know development company after actually rolling out the kpi of BTC yield which is we

just sold a billion of equity it was back by 350 million in Bitcoin we bought back the billion in Bitcoin we captured 650 million of the Arbitrage that works out to 4% that 4% is like a a Bitcoin dividend to the shareholders but we're going to keep it on the balance sheet roll it forward and reinvest it once we constructed that model we just said look we're going to issue $21 billion of equity and we're going to issue $21 billion of fixed income whether it's convertible bonds or preferred shares or corporate bonds a and we're

going to do the per fixed income to say levered we're going to do the equity when it's in a massive premium to the underlying assets to capture the yield and to delever um if you want to get behind us on that that's the plan we put put it out there the next day stock trades up we outperform every magnificent 7 company we outperform Bitcoin we outperform every Bitcoin company yeah so the shareholders spoke I mean they by it's not a surprise to me I was 95% certain they would like it because I meet with them

and they were like this is the most brilliant thing ever yeah just keep doing this so after that you know we had a good week and then November 5th came and uh there's a red sweep and all of a sudden you have a pro bit coin White House a pro Bitcoin Senate a pro Bitcoin Congress Pro Bitcoin cabinet Bitcoin rages from 68,000 999,000 the short of it is we raised 10 billion do in four years after our initial announcement and that's like progressively work and learning you know we're learning and the Market's learning to trust

us right we're building a relation my relationship is not just with My Equity investors it's with the convertible Bond investors you you meet with a convertible Bond investor say I saw you last quarter I saw you you know you yelled at me for this and this I fix this I'll do this we're Partners together I promise you I will do this I'm not gonna I'm not gonna mess with your opportunity I'm not gonna hedge it I'm not gonna I'm not gonna steal your trading opportunity I will do this and this and this the guy goes

well and and I'm looking forward to this future the go goes thank you for your cander $500 million order like if you have trust and people understand you they'll give you your money so what happened next is we raised $ 13.5 billion dollar in four weeks and I you know if you look at my tweet my my tweet uh this morning is basically yeah we generated about a 9 billion dollar plus gain for our shareholders in those four weeks we're making hundreds of millions of dollars a day It's Tricky for conventional investors to understand it

because you're not capturing shareholder value creation a gap accounting because for two reasons one bitcoin's indefinite and tangible but two in the history of 50 years of the capital markets everybody's been on the US dollar standard which is zero Vol zero AR against the dollar and this is the Bitcoin standard 60 ball 60 ARR against the dollar we don't have the math the accounting to keep up with that in the traditional system and that's why we have to put forward things like a BTC yield a BTC spread a BTC gain and those that understand BTC

they get it and they're long and they love it and those that don't understand BTC or don't understand this or just aren't really interested in putting in the work they just think it's sham crazy and they're just G to short it or they're just gonna whatever so that's where we are today is from desperation to opportunistic to strategic to to Identity at this point we're a Bitcoin treasury company I'm on a mission my mission is I'd like to see the entire world recapitalize on bitcoin every company every family every individual every government I think it's

an economic protocol for Prosperity I think it's as important as English or fire or electricity or steel I just think it's good technology it's a good idea we're we're reaching the fun stage the next four years I think are kind of fun we get to we get to do a lot of interesting things to help people M Michael you know it's interesting um and guy and I said this on fast money earlier in the week also I I've never I've been in the business for 26 27 years I've never seen anyone take this sort of

uh time to explain what they're doing which seems somewhat non-traditional if you're speaking to an equity investor which you were back in 2022 when you were on our podcast then you basically said some of the same exact things that you just ended that commentary with of like what you'd like to see you know uh companies do what you'd like to see households do and I guess if they listen to you back then um the outperformance relative to let's say the mag 7 which you just described would have been pretty astounding now you also use the

term traditional um investors when I look at the holders of micr strategy stock outside of you at almost 9 and a half% I see Capital group Vanguard Morgan Stanley Jane Street Black Rock and State Street now those six or seven you know investors are usually the largest investors in most of the the S&P 100 we can agree on that right so when you are speaking to them about what you just described to us what do they think the endgame is right because a lot of investors have exposure to this who don't really understand everything that

you just talked about so what is the endgame when you listen to an apple or Microsoft or any of the mag 7 they are lading out a 10-year plan how they're investing their Capital where they see you know I mean their business going or the macro going so what do you say to investors about what the endgame is you just described what your plan is right now yeah I I think the endgame is to is to securitize the entire asset class securitize the asset class and and so when we say we're a treasury company what

we mean is we're the institutional bridge between a a high energy volatile crypto commodity that thing we call Bitcoin with 60 AR 60 volatility what that means is it's it's always going to be higher performance than the S&P index it's always going to be more volatile than the S&P index as it goes from a trillion to 250 trillion as it merges the S&P will adopt Bitcoin and their performance will uh will drift toward it and bitcoin's performance will drift toward the SNP but as long as we're sitting between conventional Equity capital and this crypto Capital

we can Arbitrage the difference and as long as we're sitting between by 60 ARR 60 VA and the bond market is six ARR sixf 55 so you have fixed income which is 55 you have equity which is 1515 and the traditional Market you have this raw energy source which is 6060 in the crypto economy which is 247 365 no one can stop it Chinese Russians Africans South Americans people can Panic sell 10 billion of it on Saturday night through one of the 14,000 Exchange in the world or 1400 so you've got this raw thing and

then you've got this traditional market and what we've said to our investors and I think they're starting to understand now is so we're going to strip the volatility strip the performance strip the risk off of the bottom of the capital structure give you a like a 6 to 12% investment grade instrument to invest in a 12 to 24% high yield instrument to invest in a convertible investment that gives you 75 % of the upside to 100% of The Upside but 10% of the downside and then when we strip those performances and those WS via those

fixed income instruments you're talking like say you raise 100 billion in capital well you're grabbing 60 to 65% of the economic boost for the equity for the for the mstr equity so when I sell a 100 billion of fixed income I'm going to tax 60 billion dollars of boost onto 40 billion of equity on the MST side that's how we get to 2x Bitcoin or two and a half or three and of course the the real magic of the story is the Baseline is Bitcoin is raw commodity you either buy that on coinbase or Bitcoin

is wrapped you buy ibit from Black Rock that's the Baseline but it turns out most of the world doesn't want that I mean a lot of the world wants high voltage they want 10x leverage susano wants 10x leverage mum Soros they want to be up there in the stratosphere and then some people want you know that the mstx mstu those those two ETFs raiseed four billion dollars in a matter of weeks no marketing they want 4X 3x Bitcoin micro strategy is one and a half to 2x Bitcoin so some people want to be up there

above the base line look if you believe in Bitcoin and someone can give you 2x Bitcoin and they can do it with with intelligent leverage or with a balance sheet you trust why wouldn't you want two times whatever you want it right and then there's another world of crypto curious people they're just tired and bored like how do you feel about a portfolio of 187 Diversified preferred stocks that give you 520 basis points you know with and it's like okay you on the 16th tranch of a of the 18,000 Regional Bank and like and it's

like qip 99742 there's no volatility you can't pledge it as cloud or you can't borrow against it so there's a world $300 trillion of board money that's waiting to die getting two three% and then there's another 200 trillion of hot money micro strategy is just going to to sell all of those instruments up and down the chain while we ignore the Baseline and I just make this one point like when you're when you're arbitraging this you know you're asking the question well how fast is it appreciating so Bitcoin is plus 60 and let's just say

because it's plus 30 to 60 versus the US dollar and my long-term forecast is 29% for 21 years so so we're plus 30 to 60 then the next question is how volatile is it versus the dollar Bitcoin 60 volatile but you can imagine it's going to be plus 30 to 60 more volatile then you ask the question how fast is the investment cycle if I borrow a billion or or raise a billion of equity and I invest it in a real estate project it takes five years 1,500 days if I invested in Bitcoin it takes

one day I'm running the investment cycle a thousand times faster and then the last question is how a creative is the capital raise so if I'm selling it at three times net asset value you're capturing a 66% spread the convertible bonds are capturing an 80% spread when you sell a convert at an 80% spread and you do a billion of it it literally means that you captured 80 $800 million of capital gain on the day you did it and you capture all of the capital gain for your shareholders Forever on the 800 million and so

when you're raising 800 million and then you're investing it at 60% ARR or 30% right the amount of accretion is screaming so what what are we going to do well we're going to do this 42 billion and then rinse and repeat and double it and double it and double it and double it and you're going to say like well where do it end well I guess when we've taken 1% of the fixed income Market which is3 trillion and when we levered it up and we've got 10 billion you know we bought three trillion of Bitcoin

and we're trading at 10 trillion dollars in market cap we'll be growing 20% a year all right so that I mean that's the end game right so here's my question to you so you know gold is extraordinarily mature market and I'm going to round up here so gold right now is an 18 trillion market cap industry asset whatever you want to call it Bitcoin today is about 2 trillion so it's 11% where do you where should that ratio be and then by giving us that ratio we can back into a bitcoin price oh look I

mean bitcoin's going to go to 10x gold easy just keep in mind right a public company it's got to hold a commodity on its balance sheet because it can't hold Securities so you've either got a choice of a digital commodity called Bitcoin which is 60% ARR gold is seven 7% real estate is 10% bonds are five 4% and and everything less than 15% doesn't beat the cost of capital so the S&P sets the hurdle so gold fails it's a treasury asset for everybody in the world Bitcoin succeeds I I think you could if you call

Bitcoin digital gold it's 10x gold but I still think it undersells Bitcoin right because Bitcoin is digital Capital it's not just replacing gold it's going to replace real estate the S&P index and but any Capital asset held by an institution or a wealthy family so right now wealthy families and wealthy families and investors don't use bonds or gold as a capital asset they would use the S&P index or stocks as capital asset but uh Banks and regulated corporations operating companies aren't allowed to use Securities as a capital asset they're knocked down they don't want to

use gold it's not liquid enough and fungible you know it's not liquid enough and so they use real estate and you get a Reit or real estate development company but real estate is you know less than the S&P index and not volatile if you give up the AR and the volatility S&P you're trading down so that's that's not really a winner and then you're stuck with bonds and bonds are dead money a l ability so yeah I think bit I've said before Bitcoin it should reasonably become a a multi hundred trillion dollar asset class right

my forecast is 13 million a coin by 2045 base case upside and downside I just expect it's another way to say it is it's 60% AR at 60 ball it's going to track toward 20 20% AR and 20 ball when bit when S&P is 1515 over 20 years it'll just step down as it approaches that Target okay so here you go so this is my final question I promise so let's just say pres president-elect Trump and his cabinet members and the treasury secretary all listening to this podcast they just heard what Michael saor said this

is going to come completely out of left field but what if they say wait a second you know this is this is basically property what if they say the 400,000 Bitcoin on your balance sheet eminent domain Michael S are the best interest of the United States for us to have them that is that an existential risk I mean it's happened before thoughts on that you know in a in a communist or socialist state in Venezuela and North Korea and Cuba they expropriate property so if if a government becomes communist or socialist then they're going to

take your property I suppose so it's an existential threat but what I would say to them is the smart thing to do is think about money as bifurcated into currency and capital and the US dollar is destined to be the world's Reserve currency and the smart thing to do is just reg is just normalize stable coins or digital currency and let Banks and corporations issue US dollar stable coin like tether and then that market will go from 150 billion to 10 trillion and the US dollar will become the medium Exchange in North Korea South Korea

Cuba China Russia Africa South America and probably most of Europe literally if you want the dollar to become the world Reserve currency and move between eight billion people to speed of light on Android phones it's easy to do just normalize a digital currency with a digital assets framework you will have 10 trillion dollars of demand for treasury bills to back it and then I would say acknowledge that the world Capital Network right now is real estate and equity and if you talk to any billionaire no one is bragging about holding all of their wealth in

cash or bonds it's real estate it's equity and Bitcoin is the emerging World Reserve Capital Network the most intelligent thing you can do is just sell the gold buy Bitcoin it's a free trade gold was a good idea in the 19th century no one thinks gold is going to be the capital network of the 21st century so just trade the gold for Bitcoin you'll have 25% of the Bitcoin Network you'll make 100 trillion dollars on the trade if you don't want to trade the gold just issue currency it's a little bit of money it's free

print money buy 25% of the Bitcoin Network when the Chinese billionaires the Russian billionaires the Europeans when they all basically start buying Bitcoin the big winner will be the United States it's it's not more compli licated then you can have Louisiana California and Alaska for free by writing a little paper check you know or sell the past sell the stupid gold gold is going to by the way gold is going the way of silver which went the way of glass beads which will go the way of copper tokens which goes the way of the giant

Stone coin of the Yap people it's going to be demonetized because you can't zap a billion dollars of gold from an Android phone to iPhone in one Split Second it's not complicated everybody's going to figure it out so so I'm willing to accept the existential risk of the expropriation of my property if the United States goes full on communist but you can expect that I will agitate in favor of capitalism between now and then and I'm an optimist so I I I don't dismiss the presence of evil in the world you see North Korea you

see Cuba you see Venezuela there is evil it did happen I just happen to believe that at the end of the day Bitcoin is a force of good and it's going to bring people back from the brink and it's going to remind them that maybe they should embrace technology and freedom and capitalism and property rights and and all of those things that made America great all right Michael one last one here I suspect you're a Sci-Fi guy so here's the deal if we reach artificial general intelligence the AGI which I think a lot of uh

you know folks who are in the Bitcoin uh think might do sooner than later don't the machines take the Bitcoin right out of the gate they won't take it they will adopt it right you're going to have billions of AIS and they can't get bank accounts right and and by the way the AIS are smarter than us and so if you were an AI you wouldn't invest in gold or silver or glass beads or copper tokens and you wouldn't buy Securities and you wouldn't buy real estate right for not because it's hard to buy it

but by the way it is hard to buy it they'll be blocked from the 20th century economy no one's going to sell the AI the house and they can't trade bonds right so they'll be blocked from the 20th century economy but the truth is they'll look at it and they'll go well don't we want to actually grab billions of dollars of stuff that's going to I'm going to grab five or 10% of all the money in the world forever that moves at the speed of light that's in cyers space that no one could steal from

me why wouldn't you I mean I think they're smarter than us and they're faster than us so yeah uh Bitcoin will be the reserve currency of cyberspace or let me restate that before I get myself trouble it's the reserve capital of cyberspace if you're going to store your Capital asset and as the AI accumulate it uh they're just going to drive the price through the roof and so if you're a person the smart thing to do is front run the AIS they're not going to steal it from you they can't steal it they're just going

to trade you pay and rubles and real estate or whatever else Services you want for your Bitcoin and they're going to keep it because why wouldn't you it's the smart thing to do Michael saor the executive chairman of micro strategies a Visionary clearly and somebody as you know you think about steadfast people that have had their beliefs you know you mentioned Rockefeller I mean there will be people there will be books written about you being this Century's Rockefeller so Michael S your time is valuable we appreciate it thank you so much for joining us on

the tape thanks for having me guys always a pleasure [Music]