Understanding the Real Causes of Heart Disease With William Davis, MD

so 40 lbs lost at a cost of $122,000 10 PBS of which is muscle you stop the drug most people can't afford that forever they stop the drug they regain 32 to 34 pounds of of fat most almost all fat not muscle now you're compared to the start you're more likely to be pre-diabetic a type two diabetic your risk for coronary disease dementia breast cancer type two is now greater you paid $122,000 to be more unhealthy than you were at the start because you lost muscle hey there and welcome back to another episode of the

reshape your health podcast I'm your host Dr Morgan Niti and I am so excited for today's guest we actually Sherry agree this is going to be a two-part episode because I could talk to him for hours he is Dr William Davis he's a cardiologist and a number one New York Times best-selling author of the Wheat Belly series of books and then more recently super gut and recent human clinical trials that Dr Davis conducted have revealed that it is possible to lose fat and preserve muscle which helps prevent weight regain and you can enjoy an improved

body composition lower insulin resistance improved quality of life all the things we want Dr Davis is also the chief medical officer at realized therapeutic Corp which she co-founded to explore the new science of the microbiome to improve health appearance and body composition and when I started doing some research for this podcast episode I was pretty focused on gut health and so many questions come about with that and in his book and then as I continued to research him and his work I thought you know this is a really good opportunity to talk to a Cardiologist

about some of the major problems right now with General healthc care and statins and glp1 Agonist or semaglutide or OIC and set a framework for the part two which is going to be more so okay well what do we do about all these problems so part one is going to lay the groundwork we're going to answer some questions that have come up since my interview with Dr ner Ali A few years ago who's a cardiologist that is one of my top performing interviews we'll link it in the show notes and we talked about why does

LDL go up on a low carb diet and when should we care and uh just very popular I think medications are just so common and and um people don't want to be on them they have side effects um and I I just wanted to I think you're such a brilliant person I wanted to take advantage of my time with you today to start there and then we can kind of move into the gut health practical things to do so thank you for being so generous with your time to already agreed to comeing on twice with

me my pleasure Morgan yes let's get started I'd love to hear how you made the transition from Cardiology into more of a preventative health and wellness nutrition based practice well as I mentioned to you off camera a lot of things I do I discovered by accident or by bad luck so about 30 some years ago long time ago I was practicing Cardiology in Milwaukee Wisconsin I just moved there because the hospitals wanted me to set up their new technology this was the emerging age of anoplasty coronary anoplasty stent implantation aomy opening people's arteries their heart

arteries and I was teaching other doctors how to do this and then my mom died of sudden cardiac death about four months after her coronary anoplasty here so here my mom dies of sudden cardiac death the disease that I thought I was taken care of in Wisconsin uh and but it Illustrated to me how useless how flawed it was to manage this very dangerous disease in a hospital C Hospital laboratory and so I I I gave myself the task of trying to find a way to help people decide if they're at risk for these kind

of things maybe a year two years five years ahead of time how do you do that well if you ask John Q cardiologist or John Q Primary Care he's gonna say well test your cholesterol which isn't a ridiculous idea it's absurd it should have been discarded decades ago so if you're cholesterol say is 240 milligrams are you going to have a heart attack tomorrow or a year from now 10 years never you can't tell it's ridiculous idea and so back then and this remains largely true today the only real test to predict what your future

holds in the way of heart disease is to have a CT heart scan that generates a coronary calcium score it's like an index it's a gauge of how much plaque you have in your artery people say I people say we don't want to know how much hard plaque you have no it's an index of total plaque all the elements of aoic plaque so I'm scanning people left and right in Milwaukee Wisconsin was called Milwaukee heart scan and we're uncovering Morgan heart disease is everywhere if we look at people like you and me we're going to

work going to school uh riding our bikes going for walks not people in the emergency room with heart with chest pain everyday people who feel just fine you find heart disease everywhere and you score it so normal normal score is zero so let's say your score is 400 which is a high score let's say we did nothing you have a score of 400 and we did nothing we help publish these data a year later it's 500 another year L 625 25% per year increase and with each increase you're at more R greater risk of dying

of a heart attack of requiring extent or bypass surgery well back then the only tools we had this is 30 some years ago were baby aspirin a high dose of stat and cholesterol drug lowfat diet low saturated fat diet and exercise so we'd put people on that program that my colleages to this day still call Optimal medical therapy and we watch the scores go up 25% per year it had no effect it's nonsense and so what do people are are freaking out rightly so of course my colleagues who are interested in making money say things

like oh we'll do a real test a heart cathis to see if you need stance or bypass surgery these are people who have no symptoms and they would get three stance or four bypass graphs unnecessary that's malpractice by the way we know that's Mal pra there's no benefit to the person who does that who's feeling fine going about their business uh but it's done every day because it pays the cardiologist so well thousands and thousands of dollars for doing the wrong thing well I refused to do that of course and so I had to find

ways to put a stop to this 25% per year increase in score and I I I did it took some years and some hit and miss but it led me to some new lessons for instance vitamin D A crucial component it was the first time I saw score scores drop a score of 700 becomes a score of 350 or something like that A year later it also led to so a rejection of cholesterol testing cholesterol testing is is a waste of your time I tell people take a big thick black Magic Marker cross out your

total cholesterol and LDL class because are nonsense let's instead do the real test lipoprotein testing looking at the particles in the bloodstream that cause heart disease and you'll see real quickly and this is not just my speculation this is well born out in the science the dominant and defining characteristic is an excess of small LDL particles that's what LDL cholesterol is meant to estimate but we can actually measure it this is 30 years ago 30 years ago Morgan we're measuring small LDL well the science is quite clear on this what foods what causes small LDL

particles wheat grains and sugar period not bacon not pork Not Butter wheat grain theur so I asked people hey you've got a heart scan score CT a calcium score of 900 let's and you have a small LDL particle number of 2,000 let's take wheat grains and sure add it up let's see what happens they do it they come back three months later small LDL zero and they say I lost 38 pounds why I I I had to stop my insulin and three diabetes drugs my blood pressure medication my psoriasis and eczema are gone my migraine

headaches have stopped my waist is shrunk by a why I thought I don't know why so I more I stumble on a way uh to restore youthfulness and health I did not expect it I complet completely by accident I did to reduce the expression of small elal particles because of heart disease well my first followup question to that is just for people in case they're newbies this is kind of a more complex topic can you explain the difference between ldlc and ldlp so the LDL cholesterol or calculated and then the LDL particle number we just

kind of start there and explain those differences for people so in the 1950s 1950s 70 60 to 70 years ago researchers at the National Institute of Health the NIH were trying to figure out a way to guesstimate the particles in the bloodstream that cause heart disease so they use the technique called Ultra centrifugation they spun your plasma so you take your blood remove the red blood cells you have the clear part of your blood they spin it down and it layers out high density at the bottom low density at the top and they want to

know what how do you distinguish these layers and quantify the particles in them this is 19 1958 1960 so before cell phones before GPS before computers how do you do well they said well let's do this let's pick a marker one so these particles in each layer have a whole bunch of things in them these Lio proteins fat carrying proteins let's let's choose one thing and measure them it could be APO protein B it could be triglycerides it could be a whole bunch other let's choose cholesterol every layer contains cholesterol we're to measure the cholesterol

because we can do that in each layer and then guesstimate how many particles in each layer so they they guesstimated the amount of measured amount of cholesterol each layer and the problem is it's it's tough to do you can measure the cholesterol in the bottom layer the high density lipoproteins HDL you can measure the chestone the very low density at the very top measuring the middle layers are kind of troublesome so what they did was develop a calculation for the amount of cholesterol in the low density lipoprotein LDL layer and that's called the fredal calculation

named after Dr William friedwald who came out with that idea of calculating it the problem is it's subject to so many other influences if you change your diet it invalidates the calculation if you're overweight it invalidates the calculation if you're pre-diabetic it invalidates the calculation so everyone validated pretty much everybody's alal cholesterol is just crap because they're either diabetic or overweight or they have some confounding factor that neat that equation is that what you're telling me exactly true one it's a calculation it's not measured two it's subject so many influence in other words it's Fiction

it's not a real number so when you when somebody gets their LDL cholesterol you'll see in parentheses calculated it's not measured and of course the doctor said to you Morgan what what what's your diet like are you eating at McDonald's are you eating hamburgers with french fries of course they don't and so they give you this number this fictitious value and then purport to treat it with this ridiculous class of drugs called the Staten well why why is this the prevailing standard because it's easy and it makes billions of dollars for the pharmaceutical industry that's

the the defining Factor here it's not that it's one F so why would 80 million Americans take Statin cholesterol drugs and there's been no reduction in cardiovascular events because it doesn't work it's ridiculous yet it prevails today and in fact if you're discharged from the hospital after a heart attack or a heart procedure you're required you're required or the doctor is penalized if you are not prescribed a Statin cholesteral drug and have a low LDL cholesterol is fictitious value the real tragedy here though is not that it's not that you're given these ridiculous drugs to

treat a fictitious value the real tragedy here is that the real causes of heart disease are ignored no one's paying attention to them so you had almost a fatal event you're given these ridiculous strategies to treat a fictitious number no one's paying attention to the real causes that's why people come back to the hospital for more procedures you die at home or you come back for bypass that's but you know what the SEC their little secret here is it's extremely profitable to not treat the causes and that's just plain wrong it is okay so much

to unpack here so I wanted to kind of give a summary that ldlc is a calculated number um you can't really measure the cholesterol but they did that out of good intention they knew it was the particle number all along but they didn't quite know how to measure the particle number yet is that what you were saying so they're like well let's estimate Maybe maybe we can just kind of say that the cholesterol um would give some sort of indication into the particle number is that what you were saying there exactly it wasn't evil it

was it was well intended now it's 60 to 70 years ago well now 30 years later we can measure those particles in the bloodstream right the lipoprotein there's a couple different ways that I've heard about that NMR test and you can maybe talk about a little bit more about that and then I wanted you to contrast that to to like an apob test and so let's start with the NMR test and what are the pros of that what is it first of all and then should they do that or should they get a lower cost

aob B test um that just tells you the overall particle number but not necessarily the size of the particles oh very good because a lot of people are are being um uh uh uh they're looking at ail protein b as the improved version it's not and so uh there there are numerous methodss that we can use to characterize count and quantify and characterize the particles in the bloodstream so for instance cholesterol is a fat of course it's a fat in all the cells of your body but fats can't float freely in your bloodstream because fats

coales think about oil and vinegar the oil goes to the top the vinegar the water goes to the bottom but the fats coales so if cholesterol were to float freely in your bloodstream it would toess and thereby kill you because they would all go together and block arteries and and capillaries so fats have to ride on a water soluble protein so those are lipoproteins fat carrying proteins so cholesterol is just a passenger on particles in the bloodstream we can measure it in a variety of different ways we can spin it down like the like the

researchers at the NIH did many many years ago Ultra centrifugation we could put them into a gel and pass an electrical uh field through it and see how they migrate differently based on charge or we could put them in a magnetic field and see how they separate that's NMR nuclear magnetic resonance and so over the last 30 years that I've been doing this NMR nuclear magnetic resonance that separating lipoproteins by by magnetic behavior is the gold standards become the thing that's persisted and has proven so easy it's cheap it's uh uh reproducible you do it

over and over again you get the same values so over 30 years of doing this I NMR it's just so easy to do but it means the doctor has to ignore the salesperson in a three-piece suit or Min skirt selling Statin cholesterol drugs promising all kinds of incredible effects if you take the St all that's not true by the way it's all marketing it's marketing it's not truth and so when you do NMR lipoprotein analysis or or other methods you find over and over again the defining characteristic that leads to heart attack and death is

an excess of small LDL particles so someone starts let's say with the car calcium score of 400 or 500 or a th000 or had three Sten imp planted last Tuesday or had a bypass surgery a year ago whatever and they have a small elal particle number of 1,800 2400 Nom moles per liter particle count per volume you eliminate wheat grains and sugars and it goes to zero or other small number 100 whatever and all kinds of good things happen unexpectedly by doing the opposite by doing the opposite of what dietary guidelines Physicians and dietitians tell

you to do okay so that's the NMR that's going to tell you the overall number of LDL particles and other particles not just the LDL ones um and then also the size of the LDL and you're saying it's the small usually those are the small dense LDL particles that are going to be the highest risk for cardiovascular disease most atherogenic is that appropriate to say exactly yes all right so will you contrast that with the apob B test and tell people what that is so apoprotein B is the particle on every LDL and V LDL

very low density like the protein which is another in particle it's just the protein in each particle so it's a a protein B is a virtual count of those particles so if your if your apil protein B say is 150 milligrams per deciliter what does that tell you it just tells you you got lots of particles but it doesn't tell you how you got them let's compare that say to an NMR lipoprotein panel where you say we say instead you have for instance 2,000 animals per liter total LDL particles of which 1,400 are small LDL

so400 out of 2,000 what does that tell you well now it tells us that that came that 1400 small L that the cause the real cause of heart disease came from consumption of wheat grains and sugars it tells you that you have some degree of insulin resistance and inflammation and probably have an excess of abdominal visceral fat and you probably have a low at L High higher triglycerides higher blood pressure higher C reactive protein in other words that small LDL tells you everything you need to know compare that to LDL cluster what does it tell

you nothing nothing nothing yeah so if am I correct in saying LDL and total cholesterol mean nothing you really cannot infert anything from them a b is a better estimate and then NMR is the best estimate that you can do to determine your risk for cardiovascular disease exactly because that small LDL occurs as part of a cluster of abnormalities the apoprotein B tells you almost nothing like it's a shade better than LDL cholesterol and so this idea that ail protein B is better it is but less use more useful does not make it the best

there is so we've had this for 30 some years it's it's that's the that's why I say the real tragedy of focus on FOC focusing on things like alal cholesterol apil protein be is that takes our attentions away from the real cause and the truth is that not having heart disease is really very easy but you can't talk to John Q primary care or John Q cardiologist because they've been persuaded by the sales representative and the false or misguided science that is largely paid for by the pharmaceutical industry you've got to look at the real

thankfully there are people there are some of my colleagues who perform the real science and it tells us heart disease has nothing to do with cholesterol has nothing to do with Statin cholesterol drugs it it has to do with when when you when you do NMR lipoproteins it becomes very quickly obvious heart disease isn't disease of diet period yeah and we will get into why that is I think it's so fascinating we're talk about some nutritional research and the huge shortcomings that it possesses like that it has I wanted to pick your brain just a

little bit more because I read Dr Peter aa's book outlive and I feel like there is just a lot of information to understand about cholesterol and is there some differing opinions amongst professionals about what's more important like the particle number itself or the amount of small dense particles is that still up for debate because he was he put a very heavy emphasis on the apob and like some people should take Statin to get the apob as low as possible but is that really just about the SN dens like what's your opinion on that I don't

know if there's a right wrong answer here I was kind of curious for my own well we have we now have 55 clinical trials to show us that small LDL particle quantification is the measure we have to pay attention to so as I mentioned if your APO protein is 150 milligrams what does that tell you uh what What's the diet change what do you do about insulin responsiveness what do you how how do you manage it and so you say silly things like take a Statin drug to reduce it no no no no no no

if you if you quantify small l so small LDL particles they're smaller right so they're better able to infiltrate the walls of arteries small L particles as triggered by say consumption of bread or pasta or a bagel or breakfast cereals last for 5 to seven days in the bloodstream that as compared to the less than 24 hours of a large l so if you eat pork or butter you form a large Lal particle the liver recognizes that because the apil protein B in that particle is exposed and the liver recognizes it and clears it very

quickly if the particle is small the apil protein B is partially concealed and the liver doesn't recognize it and so it circulates in your bloodstream for five to seven days goes around and around in your bloodstream and has lots of opportunity to infiltrate your arteries and cause aosc plaque small LDL particles are also more oxidation prone they're Eightfold more glycation prone glucose modification so you ate something that raise blood glucose that forms small LDL and it's more glycation prone making it much more likely to cause heart disease yeah when that small Lal particle gains access

to the walls of your arteries it's much more likely to cause inflammation so small LDL is this thing perfectly crafted to cause atherosclerotic plaque as compared to large LDL so what we really want to know now here's the TW here's the twist it takes very low density lipoproteins V LDL very triglyceride Rich it takes those parles to create small LDL so how do we get those triglyceride vldl particles we get them by consuming wheat grains and sugars that's because when you consume let's say a doughnut or a bagel or breakfast cereal your your liver sees

the the the carbohydrates the amalo pcan a of Wheat and Grains or sucrose sugar and the liver is very good at converting those carbohydrates to Tri glycerides that process is called denova lipogenesis making new fats so sugar comes in you can you convert them to triglycerides triglycerides are fats they can't float in the bloodstream freely so the liver packages them as a lipo protein in this case very low density lipoprotein they're very triglyceride Rich they're low density because they're full of fat just like salad dressing the fat goes to the Top low density so vld

particles that came from wheat grains and sugar and the bloodstream vldo particles vldo particles interact with LDL particles and make them triglyceride Rich there's a series of reactions that converts them to small LDL so this idea of cut your fat cut your saturated fat eat more healthy whole grains causes heart disease so the heart healthy diets heart healthy foods cause heart disease Morgan That's the irony of modern diet advice it causes heart disease as well as type two diabetes weight gain visceral fat autoimmune diseases neurod degener diseases so conventional dietary advice has caused has been

a major contributor it doesn't help also that food manufacturers tell us stupid things like sell us breakfast cereals and and and poptart and all those kind of crazy I mean it's not food it's just like food substrates that have been chemically engineered um to be palatable and look like food and taste like food it's just it's crazy this is so top of mind for me right now I'm reading the book and change your diet change your mind by Dr Georgia e and she has a really interesting quote in there about like the 13-step process to

create soybean oil like do not try this at home and then she like walks you through every stuff and then at the end she's like put it in a bottle and label it heart healthy canola oil and it's like it's just ridiculous you know so I think that that actually brings us to um a point that we were talking about Offline that I would love to talk about we've never talked about it on the show and that is this nutrition research I'm putting research in quotes that looks at population studies and infers cause and effect

even if the authors don't infer it the the media infers it and then it just becomes kind of This Global globally accepted false truth so can you talk about those epidemiological studies and the huge faults that there are within them and how people have used them to say okay saturated fat is bad for us cholesterol fat is bad for us um animal products cause heart disease all the things that we know is not true based on the research absolutely so almost all the research a lot of it comes from the Harvard School of Public Health

by Frank Sachs uh Frank Hugh uh Walter Willet and others they do things like this I I say Morgan what did you eat for breakfast on Monday you say oh oh well okay I had oatmeal organic oatmeal with skim milk and a banana what' you have for lunch you say well I think I had I was at work so I had a ham sandwich on rye with some mayonnaise and some cottage cheese would you have for dinner on we do this for five days I contact you 10 years later I say morg what happened to

you did you have a heart attack Do you have a coling cancer what what happened to you well uh and then we try to relate that that diagnosis to what you ate in those 5 days 10 years ago now wait a minute in those 10 years you raised a couple of kids you had a divorce you drank too much booze you you went to fast food because you were depressed uh you went through a cleanse you went to a uh all expense paid vacation in Mexico two times you had went on a cruise all the

things that humans do yet we try to predict disease from the five days it's absurd it's ridiculous it's a nonsense yet that is the basis for all us dietary guidelines from the federal government it's the basis for what dietitians tell you based on absolute nonsense you can't now in their defense it's hard to do dietary studies if I if I said I'm going to put you in a diet study I'm gonna provide you with 10 years of food I won't tell you it's in the food it's impossible right and so they rely in this very

very flawed approach and yet the media as you point out and the federal government USDA says okay cutting fat and eating more healthy whole grains prevents colon cancer and heart disease and obesity based on ridiculous non this this nonsense this nonsense analysis and so we have a dietary community that believes that these fictions are the truth and of course they're not no and it's I don't I think if people don't understand what is good research and then they're looking at these headlines and they don't realize it's based on these epidemiological studies with food survey subjective

information there's no actual experiment going on at all and it's like if I asked you what do you have for breakfast two weeks ago how many servings of berries did you have it's it's just it's not it's not evidence-based and so I think it's really sad that that is the basis that the US dietary guidelines are using to re recommend School food programs and nursing home programs and all of these different government runs government sponsored programs influencing Public Health are based on um a mirage in my opinion of evidence and so I think that if

you're a a really serious student of nutrition you've got to look to better evidence so can you give us a little bit of a sense of okay if a headline comes out you know eggs are bad or eggs are good eggs are in eggs are out how do we know if we should say this is crappy evidence I'm not going to listen to this or if we should say oh interesting this is actually really well done I should pay attention here what are some telling signs of good and bad evidence so it it it's hard

for people to do this but we have to recognize those sorts of what are called observational or epidemiologic evidence is really no evidence at all and so in other words the real evidence would require I take somebody and I feed them something versus placebo or something different and see what happens over two years five years 10 years very difficult very costly to do or or you find the the sources of information like you I hope me that people can trust because we we know what is real evidence and what's not real evidence so just because

they say oh as you point out eggs cause heart disease and a month later eggs don't cause heart disease LDL but we know that means nothing you know and so it's like what is the research You' been assessing and is it is the assessment measure true anyways I think that's a huge problem with the cholesterol conversation it's just like so many people wheat and eggs and oh it raises cholesterol who cares like cholesterol does not cause heart disease you know we got to get that message out to the public they've created this ridiculous house of

cards as you know that leads people to think stupid things like not eating the fat on your pork is a good thing or not eating eggs or going vegan all these ridiculous ideas that really have no basis in reality but are based on these flawed measures exactly right so they can call it evidence-based but I just really wanted to highlight to people listening because I hadn't done so on the podast before that there are different qualities of evidence and I would not consider this evidence at all I would consider it what what what would you

call it observation like you just can't infer anything from this study because there's no real data and if there's no real data there's no real evidence exactly right they're exploratory at best or and often driven by commercial interests we have that also we have big food companies big food companies who drive a lot of the message you know when the USDA says okay we're going to redraft the dietary guidelines and you can come to Bethesda Maryland uh during this two- week period where we open the conversation up to the public well who shows up well

your audience doesn't show up I don't show up you don't show up but members of Nabisco and General Mills show up for the entire two weeks and Lobby the USDA to craft dietary guidelines to suit their interests and so we have that also the commercial interests of big food companies who craft message so what I tell people is take two fingers and put them in your ears and don't listen to what the media tells you don't listen to what dietary guidelines tell you because it's it's all flaws based on uh misinterpretations misrepresentations commercial interests that's

that's that that's the tough part Morgan we have to think for ourselves and hopefully listen to people like you I help me who look at the science who understand that this is not science this is nonsense this is fiction and but but then how do we get to the real ideas how do we get to a message that says this is how you get slender this is how you get healthy and don't have diabetes don't have heart disease don't have dementia here's how you do it well my husband and I were talking this morning um

it was a beautiful morning so the kids weren't up yet we're like let's go on the hot tub we went out in the hot tub and we were just talking about sugar and how much sugar children eat these days and how much sugar parents eat these days and he said you know I really think that sugar is like the tobacco of Our Generation and I said you're absolutely right but there is so much commercial interest in feeding people's sugar and with tobacco I said you can see the smoker slum it's very very easy to take

a picture of a black lung show that as marketing material and be like don't smoke this is what it does to your lungs what do you think it's going to take for Society at large to start realizing that Docker pepper you're drinking is slowly killing you the Gatorade that you're giving your kids is slowly killing them because there's not as obvious of a cause and effect as a smoker's lung how are we going to simplify this enough and why has it not been been done already to Market to the government we cannot allow these refined

sugar products in our food anymore like what is that going to take or is it even is it just going to be a person I'm I'm making the decision for me you're making the decision for you like are we never going to get there what's your thoughts on that you know I don't have all the answers but I don't it'll come through legislation it'll probably come through education and one of the major steps forward in education of all crazy things has been the emergence of The glp1 Agonist drugs yes that is drugs like Le goie

and monjaro and OIC so people my colleagues say oh they're they're breakthroughs they're wonderful they're magical so somebody takes let's say uh a wovie so let's say for a year so they spend $112,000 and their savings $112,000 they a car a car maybe half a month of rent yeah yeah they experienced nausea and all kind of other bad side effects and but they lose 40 pounds uh and they're real PR wow I I went from a size 36 to a size eight right and but of that 40 pounds 10 pounds was muscle so think of

10 pounds of course of of ground beef on your kitchen table it's a lot of muscle to lose muscle is the principal determinant of course of your basil metabolic rate the rate at which you burn calories to breathe to digest food to manufacture body parts so 40 PBS lost at a cost of $112,000 10 pounds of which is muscle you stop the drug most people can't afford that forever they stop the drug they regain 32 to 34 pounds of of fat most almost all fat not muscle now you're compared to the start you're more likely

to be pre-diabetic a type 2 diabetic your risk for coronary disease dementia breast cancer type two di is now greater you paid $112,000 to be more unhealthy than you were at the start because you lost muscle yet people are dispensing these drugs they're they're they're desperate to get these darn drugs but it highlights how awful the pharmaceutical answer is to something that's easy to control as obesity and so I think it's going to take messages like that to pull back the curtain on the false gods that the pharmaceutical industry and Health Care people in healthare

not you and me but conventional doctors do not have the answers I I I often say this the last person you talk to if you want to be healthy if you want to be slender and vigorous and strong and and flexible and agile the last person to talk to is the doctor he or she has no idea how to help you become healthy so it's got to be a person's own actions and and understand any that makes them healthy it has nothing to do with Healthcare yeah I agree and the glp andas I think are

so popular right now I think people just get so desperate and they they forget about the long-term impact I would say it's not about losing weight it's about losing weight and keeping it off which requires a different strategy than just taking a medication that's going to kill your appetite your energy your motivation to exercise has nasty side effects for many people and it's not an it's not a long-term solution so I'm glad that you highlight of that why do you think the FDA was so eager to like get that through why is it being so

heavily pushed right now because I have gotten emails about hey do you want to add a glp1 uh program because soand so did it and they added $24,000 of Revenue to their bottom line a month and I'm like wow that's embarrassing that you're using that person as a case study and your marketing emails first of all I just deleted it of course I'm not going to respond but I think the profitability I'm just so curious if you know anything about this that's only one example but like how much money are Physicians making by prescribing this

you're like who is making the money why are they being prescribed so often as you point it's all about money so if I'm practicing let's say I'm a group of 20 doctors and we form a pharmacy and we buy The gp1 Agonist drug let's say for $400 a month and I sell it to to my patients for $900 a month or whatever well I've made a ton of money by dispensing this flawed group of drugs that destroy Health at some point I believe people are gonna say well what the hell I I paid $122,000 or

whatever and now I'm I'm a type two diabetic because I regained all that fat weight now I have worse arthritis so one of the things I did yet yet another accident I did a small human clinical trial uh you know so one of the things I I do uh uh is I restore things lost to modern humans so so much modern health problems come from our loss of things we were supposed to be doing like vitamin D we're supposed to be living Outdoors running naked or with a loin cloth uh in a tropical or semi-tropical

we're supposed to drink water from a river that's running over rots rich in magnesium so we're restoring things that are lost one of the things that have been lost are microbes in our GI track in our Gast in testal track because you took a moxacin 20 years ago for an upper respiratory infection or a urinary tract infection so you lost numerous hundreds of microbes because of that exposure made worse by say exposure to food that contain glyphosate the around the uh herbicide and Roundup or because you took a stomach acid blocking drug stomach acid protects

you against M bad microbes numerous factors we've destroyed the gastrointestinal microbiome among the casualties of this is one microb called lact basilis Roy reu t r i named after Gard reuer the microbiologist who discovered this in human breast milk in 1962 where it was everywhere everybody had it breast milk stool in his 40-year academic career in Germany he couldn't find it anymore disappeared so lack the basilis rotari due to antibiotics and other factors has disappeared from the human gastrointestinal microb with other microbes well when you restore lact theileri what happens well you have a restoration

of youthful muscle because we lose about a third of our muscle as we age we have an increase in libido we have uh acceleration of healing healing time is cut by about a third if you have an injury or a wound you have uh guys older guys experience a 50% rise in testosterone older ladies experience a return of vaginal sensation and moisture and there are effects generated by the Risen oxytocin that occurs with Rai so when you have higher oxytocin the hormone of love and empathy you have an increase in the intensity of love and

affection for other people you have an increase in generosity increased acceptance of other people's opinions you have an increase in immune response so and you have a LW you have an increase in dermal collagen dermal thickness so uh I tell this to to my audience and the ladies say oh we don't care about generosity we don't care about accepting other people's opinions and muscle we just want better skin I thought what okay fine so I did a human clinical trial 25 ladies and I gave them lacab Basils rori at high counts I added Marine sourced

collagen peptides hyaluronic acid because those two things are absent from the modern diet because we were told to cut our saturated fat so we don't eat organ Meats anymore and I also added the catenoid as theand because people who you know eat it fast food food or don't eat things like kale or Dine greens don't get catenoids so I added the most potent cor of all Asis anthon so I said to these ladies all right take these four things in capsule form don't change your diet don't change your exercise program just do these four things

they do it for 90 days they're thr it they lost their crows feet they lost their smile lines nasal labal fold forehead wrinkles start to reduce those are deeper wrinkles they that takes long so over 90 days ladies are wow I look 20 years younger but we also measured their waist circumference just because it's free to do right and they lost huge amounts of abdominal fat as much as eight and a half inches off their waist circumference well even more interesting they didn't lose weight now how can you lose up to eight and a half

inches off your waist and not lose muscle and that we've seen that in animals trials we've seen that in human clinical experience so what I Morgan what I stumbled on by accident because ladies want better skin is a way to shrink abdominal fat that's the source of all the problems of obesity and and overweight and restore youthful muscle so people some L say I don't look like Arnold Schwarz don't worry you won't so many people say that I don't want to weights I don't want to get bulky I'm like you won't prise what you do

gain is the musculature you had at age 25 so as you age into your 40s 50s 60s onwards you lose huge amounts of muscle we're going to restore that muscle and when you restore when you lose abdominal fat and you restore youth muscle wonderful things happen your triglycerides come down your blood sugar comes down your blood pressure comes down you look better you lose inflammation you lose insulin resistance and your skin looks better so what we're seeing is do all these things so restore those factors lost from Modern Life in the background of wheat grain

sugar elimination and some other nutrients that are lacking like vitamin D magnesium iodine omega-3 fatty acids and wonderful things happen you know when I did this Morgan about four years ago or so in my 60s my 60s I I know about you I can't stand going to the gym I can't I hate it one in our BAS okay well I would go because I could I couldn't take more than 15 minutes once a week that's all I could stop stand I we use the machines go one one machine to the next get the hell out

right well I was doing that and over three weeks of doing these things I gained 13 pounds of muscle and my strength increased by 50% I'm hand I was handling weights 15 minutes once a week I'm I was handling weights that I last handle in my 20s so it's not arold Schwarzenegger it's a restoration of youthful muscle which gives you control over metabolic rate and weight control and multiple metabolic measures like blood pressure and blood sugar so what we're doing is simply restoring factors lost from Modern people Modern Life and regaining control over shape body

composition and health okay I have to ask a couple questions because all that sounds great however in order to build muscle like the building blocks of muscle are protein and resistance training and so for you to say oh you not e need 13 times of muscle in three weeks of resistance training 15 times a week like that math does not add up to me so I need you to explain to me this the rorai you said it was really the the restoration of the rorai bacteria that's been G in our modern diet how does that

impact one's ability to build lean muscle mass on a physiological level so two ways so lactobacillus ruai this microb loss by nearly everyone in the modern world but by the way if you were to test the microbiome of a raccoon or a deer they all have root Ray if you were to test the microbiome of someone living in the jungles of of Brazil or the Highland mountains of New Guinea or the Savannah of Kenya they all have Rite we've lost it so what does Rite do well you ingest it or your mom gave it to

you at Birth or breastfeeding but you lost it because she took antibiotics you took antibio whatever but if you had it what does it do it colonizes very neat very NE more it colonize the entire GI tract not just the colon like most microbes pardon me so it colonizes the entire gastrointestinal tract including the 24 ft of small intestine where it takes up residence and produces what are called bacteria sents natural antibiotics effective against fecal microbes why is that important well modern people due to antibiotic exposure glyphosate um other herbicides pesticides stomach acid blocking drugs

chlorinated drinking water preservatives in food most agents like uh polysorbate 80 and carboxymethyl cellulose and caragine and ice cream and salad dressings this all uh kills off healthy microbes and allows feal microbes to proliferate in the colon these are species like eoli salmonella calaor which may be seem sound familiar because they're also the microbes of food poisoning so fecal microbes are not well tolerated as food poisoning nor as microbes from the colon that Ascend into the small intestine that now affects 50% of the US population by my estimates FAL microbes because of loss of healthy

microbes have been allowed to ascend and proliferate in the small intestine well the small intestine is by Design very permeable that's where we're supposed to absorb amino acids fats vitamins minerals but when feal microbes colonize the small intestine where they don't belong these microbes of course live for only a few hours they don't live very long so trillions of microbes in the small intestine live and die rapidly when they die they release their toxic compounds and one there's many of them but one is called endotoxin and that endotoxin because of the permeability of the small

intestine enters the bloodstream that's called endotoxemia so what happens to somebody who has increased feal microbes in the small intestine this is called small intestinal bacterial overgrowth sibo CBO and now has lots of endotoxin in the bloodstream endotoxin well that drives weight gain insulin resistance higher triglycerides fatty liver small LDL particles that cause heart disease depression anxiety cognitive impairment higher blood sugar type two diabetes pre-diabetes hypertension skin issues Ros psoriasis eczema joint muscle issues fibromyalgia rheumatoid arthritis in other words the microbiome composition has a major well rodite our good friend takes up residance in the

small intestine where this occurs produces bacteria sinins that kill feal microbes so you start to have a rece a backing up of this process of the infestation of your small intestine by feal microbes because you restored this lost microb that colonized the small intestine so the the reduction in endotoxemia major reason why you have increased muscle reduction visceral fat better SK Etc but there's another aspect we have per there's another aspect to roriz behavior and that is so it takes up resins in the 30 feet of the gastrointestinal TR 24 feet of small intestine four

to five feet of colon and it sends a signal via the vagus nerve up through the chest neck into the brain to release the hormone oxytocin oxytocin I while people think of it as the hormone of love and affection it's also the hormone of body composition so the increase in oxytocin restores youthful muscle so in experimental models if you give an old animal uh Rai and if you look at the muscle it's all atrophied small atrophied muscle cells you give that animal lacus cils rori their by oxytocin the muscle cells rebound and become indistinguishable from

a young Mouse there's a massive increase in the volume of muscle cells and so when you restore rorai oxytocin is a return of youthful musculature interesting as well as smoother skin uh in libido higher testosterone vaginal moisture acceleration of healing all those wonderful things Morgan I think what we're talking about is restoring factors lost it could be collagen because you're not eating organ Meats could be hyaluronic acid because you don't eat brain skin and tongue could be a carotenoid like aesan because you're eating processed ultr processed foods it could be Rite that you lost because

you took amoxicillin or whatever 20 years ago restore these loss factors and youthfulness returns all right I I have one more question and then we'll kind of preview part two you you mentioned antibiotics a few times at the Roday if you take one course of antibiotics in your lifetime does it kill off all the rotor forever forever or how do we um how do we know that that happens like with one round or is it just person specific so there have been plenty of studies that looked at such things as stool microbiome pre and then

after after an antibiotic and there's loss you know it's remember how people used to think that a pile of oily Rags would cause rats to emerge well it doesn't work that way right rats don't come Rags same thing if you kill off microbes they don't come back so if you kill off let's say a hundred species in your gastrointestin microbiome because you took amoxicillin or uh choriyon or whatever by the way these are broadspectrum antibiotics meaning kill off huge numbers of microbes they kill off the bad guys so if you had an eoli bladder infection

or you had numac pneumonia or you had a stakus orius skin infection they give you a broad spectrum and a biotic to kill off that microb and lots of others but they're they're indiscriminate it's an atom bomb if I drop an atom bomb on a population it doesn't just kill the bad people it kills the good people the school teachers the nurses the doctors the bankers the it kills everything right same thing with antibiotics these broad spectrum antibiotics kill almost everything so so you must be reintroduced into the system somehow to get it back in

there is that what you're saying yes so we have to restore those microbes not the easiest thing to do by the way Morgan and that's an emerging or evolving conversation but part of it is restoring these lost very important microbes so-called Keystone microbes like lactobacilus Rite that restores youthfulness lactobacilus gas that shrinks your waist basilla is coagulant that reduces arthritis pain and reduces muscle injury uh getting fermented one of the most important things that people can can do for your audience is uh reintroduce fermented foods cafir kimchi fermented vegetables sauerkraut real sauerkraut not the stuff

you buy in the store and you get microbes like Lucano or pakus and but these these microbes don't take up resonance interestingly in fermented foods they pass through mouth to toilet but in their Passage through the 30 feet of your gastrointestinal tract they cultivate they're like Farmers I know you live on a farm they're like Farmers you know uh when these fermenting microbes go through your GI tract they cultivate the growth of beneficial microbes like acromania or fala bacteria and lacab basilla species so adding back fermented food s is one of the most powerful things

you can do for health and for youthfulness and one of the things they'll do is help you restore lactobacillus Rite now they won't make lactobacilus Rite like they don't make rats out of Oly Rags you have to actually reintroduce it okay but the F influence is one of the wonderful things that people can do to regain control over health and we'll get into that a lot more in part too as I said I'm I'm like there is so much to cover with you so next time I want you to tune back in for part two

we're going to talk a little bit about gut health and the microbiome more specifically I think you can tell by now I love getting into the physiology of things I love hearing just the breakdown of that I think there's so much content online that it's hard to know who to trust and so I think getting into the nitty-gritty and really pushing back and challenging my guess on what's the physiology helps build that Authority and that trust for The Listener that oh okay this person knows what they're talking about um we're going to talk about like

signs of poor gut health and sibo specifically I know that that's so common um and then what causes poor gut health how does stress affect gut health and then some of just you know random questions that have come up in coaching throughout the years like what are prebiotics versus probiotics and I'm most excited for the part of the conversation where we're going to talk about fiber because um the keto diet is very popular the carnivore diet is very popular however you talk a lot about the benefits of fiber and so I'm going to kind of

ask you okay why is fiber so important and not an essential nutrient at the same time and then we'll talk about uh sourdough bread which is one of my hobbies and so I wanted to pick your brain a little bit about all right if we are going to eat grain what are the best types how can we make them less harmful those kinds of things so lots to talk about next time Dr Davis thanks for agreeing to come on again to the show and we'll get that scheduled and recorded and share with our audience but

in the meantime if they want to grab one of your books and start learning more about what you teach about bed health um or brains how how would they conect with you best well this the super gut book is the book most recent that uh summarizes all these kinds of things including how to restore microbes like lacil rorai gaser Etc how to make what I call sibo Yogurt a yogurt not the stuff in the store a yogurt that eradicates sibo and normalizes breath hydrogen gas that indicates sibo and that's in the super gut book my

my um the website is drdavis infinity health.com where I have a several thousand blog posts several 100,000 discussion forum posts and also I host a two-way Zoom meeting uh once a week we have about a h 100 people we talk about things like this roty diet sourdough bread blah blah blah yeah and one thing you mentioned today that I want to dig into next week too are just some ingredients like you mentioned some ingredients like the caragan I think it was you it was a really fast sentence that I think will be so beneficial slowing

down and going in and helping helping people really understand by eating whole food is the best option because there's so many food additives that are harming our gut health unknowingly so I'm really excited for her two thanks again and we'll talk soon thanks Morgan