"Life Will Get Weird The Next 5 Years!"- Build Wealth While Others Lose Their Jobs | Peter Diamandis

I think it will play out something like this uh I think that the rate of change is going to cause a lot of people a lot of turmoil they will get addicted to things like social media and the dopamine cycle uh their sense of well-being will be tremendously disrupted by um losing a sense of purpose to Ai and the reason that even in the face of all of that I consider myself wildly optimistic about the future I am very aggressively a techno Optimist um is because I don't think that Evolution and that's probably is the

right word though I don't just mean it from the sort of standard perspective of your DNA mutation mutations accumulate and you get better I mean technological Evolution societal Evolution um I don't think it cares about any one generation and it will gladly create a period of 15 to years of just absolute brutality but on the other side of that will be a generation that grows up with just oh this is all de rer and yeah I have a quantum computer in my pocket and there's Fusion Energy and it's abundant anything I can imagine becomes real

and the person that I want to speak to is the person that wants to map out where this goes and how to ride this wave well and to your point and and I don't know if this is what you meant by power but to me power is the ability to close your eyes imagine a world better than this one open your eyes acquire the skills to actually make that world come true and when I think about as a filmmaker all my entire journey to getting into business and growing Quest and you know spending 20ish years

of my life doing something sort of to the side of what I really wanted to do was because I had no idea how to break into the industry because making a film was a no budget film was $100,000 yeah and now it will be if I were to have kids today my kids would grow up in a world where you just type onto your phone the kind of movie in fact they they're not even going to type they they would go and the the thing that they are most likely to want to see in that

moment would exist yes and as long as we're able to understand our baser natures and not be a slave to algorithms but instead go okay I understand how I have to distance from this I can't allow myself to get addicted I want to use these things in order to whatever experience whatever thing you want to experience um then I think that that will be okay and I think so I'll make a prediction I think you agree with this I think I've heard you talk about this but if not let me know um the reason that

the fairy Paradox isn't a paradox is I don't think people end up exploring space I think they explore virtual yes worlds which will be far more interesting than than anything that's a slave to physics yeah and that's that's the reality that I think that we're moving towards and between here and there many people will be broken emotionally and they simply won't be your competition and so for those that are paying attention and figuring out how to leverage this technology you will create the next wave of opportunity and you will Thrive I agree with all of

that um and I do agree that there's going to be a period of turbulence over the next 5 to 15 years and that turbulence is going to come because we're in the midst of a phase change in society um you you know you've had you've had madat on the show right twice twice yeah and mo has become a dear friend we're working on a documentary together around scary smart uh his book which I commend to everybody and you know I've had this conversation with on that on the flip side of AGI we do have abundance

uh defined as uh access to all the food water energy Healthcare education that you want everybody has access to it's completely democratized and demonetized um and I think that's a more peaceful world as well if you can have what you want um it's also somewhat of a post capitalist world but we can talk about that separately um then you're less likely to you know blow yourself up in suicide vest um and uh you know if you if everybody could be expansive and they almost in their own light cone sort to speak instead of having to

uh oppress other people you just go and you you build and you create um how do we cross the chasm though because there's a b so that's the issue is the chasm over the next 5 to 10 years uh when AI comes in in the near term and I think we're going to see this I think you know mo and I have talked about patient zero being the 2024 presidential elections right why um because I think it is you know in 2020 Cambridge analytica moved the needle and caused A disruption uh with you know massive

budget in 2024 a kid in their garage using generative AI can do that by creating deep fakes deep fakes uh you know uh creating um uh you know social uh uh persuasive arguments um that get traction and are sway people's thinking whether they're true or not I mean say something enough times to somebody in enough ways and they believe it um and stop asking well is this true and where to come from uh it's just you know we have all of these cognitive biases um which are fascinating it's a whole field I I'm fascinated by

that our brain takes all these shortcuts because we can't process all the information so I've got a recency cognitive bias I give more value to something I recently heard right I've got a familiarity bias I give if someone dresses and looks like me I give it more Credence I have a negativity bias I give much more Credence in negative information than positive information and this sort of stuff saved your life on the savanas of Africa 100,000 years ago today you can be manipulated by them um so um I think I forgot where I was going

let me ask what what is the thing about the 2024 election that you're most afraid of besides who might become president um well if that's the thing you're most afraid of I well I think it's going to become I think we have a divisiveness coming uh and people are playing full out and uh it's no longer gentlemanly politics uh and I think um you know part of this is a posttruth economy where you can't tell whether something is truthful or not and one of the things I'm afraid about is more Civil War than anything else

yeah right um so this next I'm the you know I'm the person who the glass is not half full it's overflowing but yet I do see this period of turbulence we have a whole population we have a whole generation having gone through covid who are now going to step into a world where they're not getting the jobs they expected because AI is coming in and taking a number of those jobs um so there's going to be youthful social unrest sounds like Arab Spring almost over again uh so how do we how do we navigate that

uh and I've been thinking about that um uh my wife Kristen mad do and I have been you know talking about what do you teach people how do you navigate this um and part of it is how do people survive uh traumatic experiences because it's going to be traumatic for a lot of people but yet on the flip side of this we're going to see I think tremendous abundance so it is something we have to navigate but Humanity navigates these things over and over again we navigated World War I World War II uh you know

um do you have any um rules or insights I'm not sure what the right moniker to put it on it is that you want people to understand about themselves or whatever to help us navigate this well I want to have those I'm not sure I have them formed yet um I think that the most important thing is a hopeful having hope about the future you know if you ask yourself the question um in the year 2023 would you rather live here now than the year 1900 do you have an answer for me yes for yeah

obviously right and I think the vast majority uh when I ask people is you know and people who say the you know the good old days in 1900 they're fooling themselves for sure uh you know the first time they got an infection they'd be like whoa yes I'm dead uh you know the streets of any major city stank from urine and manure from horses y um life was short and brutish the average age was 40 you got you were dead from tuberculosis by then I mean it it was really brutal and you would you would

work 708 80 hour work weeks and your kids were working to try and make ends meet child labor was was prominent back then so we romanticize the past um and between the year 1900 and today uh I did the work I'm right I have a a book come I'm got a book coming out in the first half of next year called age of abundance which is my follow on to my first book and I looked at what were the number of uh needless deaths over this last century uh and if you look at disease Warfare

and uh starvation it was about 240 million people died from those whoa right so you had 50 million people dying from just uh the Spanish Flu in World War I and you look at just I mean it's pretty we lived a pretty brutal life over the last 123 years 20th century was rough and yet we got here and so I think ultimately it's about the human Spirit overcoming these things and so I am hopeful that the human spirit will allow us to evolve to this next level and we are we are evolving as Humanity uh

we're evolving technologically and societally and we are also going to evolve in other ways we're going to go from evolution by Darwinism natural selection to evolution by human Direction uh and it's moving fast right this is what Ray kwell talks about in The Singularity um that you know in his you know there's lots of singulari Singularity comes from physics as a as a Event Horizon you can't see beyond right and so we're really close to the AI Singularity which is I can't tell you what's going to happen in 5 years let Alone 10 years with

AI it's moving so incredibly fast and then Ray talks about the singularity as the convergence of all of these bio info Nano information Technologies from AI biotechnologies nanotechnologies which is transforming life at such a rapid how real is nanotechnology uh I think it is definitively real um right now today uh there are people working on elements of it a a good friend of mine has dropped off the planet to go invest his wealth in building it um what does it do today so so um today uh we are building molecular machines versus Atomic machines so

now what is narot technology in the first place narot technology is the ability to assemble things atom by atom so Eric rexler wrote a book in 1986 called engines of Creation in which he looked at uh nanotechnology and the ability to the physics and the energetics of being able to build things atom by atom um and his he writes about an idea called an assembler which is a machine that's able to grab a silicon atom or an oxygen atom or an nitrogen atom and bonded and assemble things and an and a assembler I could have

an assembler in my hand and I can command it to take atoms from my skin and manufacture an assembler and give it to you and now you have one and you can have that assembler replicate itself right and these are Atomic machines and now I can drop it in the soil and I can say produce me an electric Lamborghini and it can go to open source and find a design for an electric Lamborghini and then it will take the atoms out of the soil it'll need energy energy is abundant in the universe and it'll say

I need a kilogram of titanium or a kilogram of lithium or whatever the case might be um and you'll provide that feed that Raw Feed stock and it will manufacture this for you now we uh we know this um like an oak tree seed is a uh is a if you would nanotechnology you take a seed for an oak tree you plant it it just does it very slowly it takes the the atom it has the information set inside of that that uh Oak seed and it grabs atoms from the soil and then energy from

the Sun and over time it builds a Mighty Oak it just does it at a very slow time frame and so the question is can you build Atomic machines that can manufacture things at a much faster time frame and so um there is nothing that has been uh uh ever shown that says it's impossible from the laws of physics and we're building things now at a molecular level and in some cases an atomic level um and I believe you know Ray Kell's prediction is that it is um you know in the next 15 years that

we'll see these coming into existence and AI will become probably our most valued tool for being able to produce those uh uh those atomic assemblers and then it's between Ai and and nanotechnology it's the universe is reinvented instantly you're we in a post capitalist Society at that point what has value anymore very few things yeah so is a post capitalist Society then do that like God you really want to go there um it's uh so a Jeremy riffkin wrote a book called zero marginal Society uh which talks about this and it's a it's a it's

a world of massive abundance where you can have almost anything you want uh There Is wealth accumulation for the people who get started earlier in that but I I would rather just focus on the notion that in this world you can have access to all the food water energy Healthcare education everything you want it's available um I know listen I can tell you the world's going to get very strange very fast yeah my my concern going back to the nearest term strangeness would be the 2024 feeman that's his name okay Richard feeman Professor yes wrote

about this he wrote a in in the I think 1958 he wrote a very famous paper gave a lecture called there's plenty of room at the bottom and he said let's look not at macro structures and the universe but let's look at atomic structure and Richard fan wrote effectively the first paper on nanotechnology and then Eric Drexler wrote the first book on the subject and really explore the physics of it interesting yeah I don't know a lot about finan but certainly somebody that comes up a lot um so the thing that I'm most concerned about

in the immediate term the 2024 election the thing that I'm worried about is that people will do deep fake videos and it is distressing to me one how good they are and two if you know what you're looking for you can usually tell pretty quickly what's fake and what's real but the average person can't doesn't know and I'll see a video come across my exfeed that clearly is a deep fake and people are riled up in the comments as if it's real and I'm like the barrage of things that will come will be I have

to tell you a funny story so um you know my podcast is called moonshots and uh uh it's been fun and I focused mostly on interviewing entrepreneurs who are taking big moon shots in the world folks who want to you know do amazing things and their stories of getting there and the difficulties and how they overcome them and such uh about 3 months ago my team created an avatar of me I saw the interview and I interviewed myself and I was blown away I called it Peter bot and uh it's both visual it looks like

me it moves its arms around it sounds like me in it's trained on all of my books and all my blogs and so um and it's great and it's I'm really proud of that uh of that interview and I I I said it did a better job uh in as a orator and as someone communicating my ideas and I did it was it was amazing um and I asked it to talk about what were the downside scenarios of deep fakes and tell me a story and it instantly whipped up a story about a young female

politician who is running for election and the opponent creates a deep fake of of her and information gets out there and despite the fact that it's not true the story starts spreading virally and her ability to overcome it when it's out of the gate was impossible and that is problemsome problematic yep lies go around the world faster than the truth can put on his shoes I love that saying oh my God that's terrifying uh yeah I think that's exactly what's going to happen you said something earlier you said people are playing for real or for

Keeps or I forget the exact phrase you used but that is true right now people are playing for all the marbles so one uh I would like to see the blockchain used to Watermark somehow signify this thing is real I think it's the most important techn ology for that and it's actually the most important use of blockchain you know I've always been like okay besides like Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies and so forth what's blockchain really going to be valuable for I think it's truth authentication yes correct this thing is real the the obviously cryptocurrency the

blockchain has become incredibly divisive some people are totally for it and again somebody developing games I'm like right at the intersection of people hate or love this technology but if I could get them to understand it's just a technology it lets you do a thing yes and so what is that thing that it lets you do and what it does is it brings the laws of physics to the virtual world and if tomorrow is going to be more virtual than today and it is then you better have something that brings some of the laws of

physics like the ability to say okay I can authenticate this thing so sitting across from you now I obviously I don't have any concerns about whether you're real or not and for a very long time it was well a picture or a video that's easy and then it became well a picture you can fake but video is still real and now it's okay even video man is super easy to fake and so that becomes really disconcerting and if we don't have a way to Market and say this thing is real this thing is not and

make it ubiquitous so that when it shows up on my feed I it it is self-evident this one is real and this one is fake what the blue check equivalent right exactly and so that to me becomes really really important to your point about the election being patient zero it's like this is coming right now right now this is not a tomorrow problem this is a tway problem and given who's running this is going to be a nightmare and so I'm I am super worried and when you look at Rio who's up to the last

prediction I saw was 40% likelihood of Civil War in the US 50% likelihood of a global World War and so it's like w like these are terrifying odds yes uh they are and it's the human element um that's at stake here right it's it's humans doing this to themselves it's corre one of important things people need to realize it technology is not inherently evil it's how humans utilize the technology and we have so much to live for and so much potential ahead of us right infinite uh adjacent potentials um you know when I think about

one of why AI is important it may well be to navigate all this stuff I don't know that we humans are able to I don't know given all of the complexities of politics and social beliefs and distrusts you know is there is there some means by which a more brilliant more capable more gentle AI is able to step in and support us during this transition period uh it's a conversation that's out there and we're one we're thinking about we talk about AI being the massive disruptor can it be the massive stabilizer as well M being

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over 500,000 apps and websites make your point and have a greater impact with grammarly sign up now and download grammarly for free at grammarly.com impact Theory that's grammarly.com impact Theory let me paint a scenario for you and as somebody with are you kids 11 now my kids are 12 12 uh as some for those listening they two fraternal twin boys yeah yes somebody that has kids who this will impact I'll be very interested to get your take on this so um I am actively building an artificial world with artificial characters that as the technology matures

we can't do this yet but this this will be real very quickly uh I want to build characters that you have a real relationship with that you get to know they get to know you they react differently to you um they have memory and when I think about I think technology has really created a loneliness epidemic for a lot of people but ironically I think technology is going to be the solve for that loneliness now the question becomes will it be a better or worse world that that remains to be seen but with my optimistic

haton um I think people's best friends certainly in 10 years from now most people's best friend will be in AI in 20 years barring just absolute nuclear catastrophe like for sure biological weapon that's probably more likely uh that seems a certainty and that so people will have friendships that are AI but they'll also have romantic relationships and even potentially this one freaks me out but potentially sexual relationships with AI um what do you think about that um yeah I I think that we're going to have uh relationships with AIS that are intimate because they know

you better than you know yourself literally literally right I'm I'm writing I'm I just finished my chapters on AI in age of for age of abundance and I'm working on the uh humanoid robot chapters today and so AIS will in fact um you're going to give permission to your AIS to listen to your phone calls read your emails watch what you're eating watch what you're doing you're going to do it openly because when you give it that permission it can help you in an amazing fashion right so it'll remember everyone you've forgotten so when the

person's approaching you it'll be you know my favorite right your know the kid's birthday and so forth if you want to be if you want to you know follow my diet recommendations it will for your AR glasses it will tell you don't eat that or it'll have pre-ordered for you at the restaurant you'll listen he'll listen to your conversation so he'll remind you for everything and people go I don't want it knowing this stuff I mean well come on be serious I mean Alexa is listening in your bedroom right now Google knows everything you've searched

for Microsoft knows everything on your email um you know it's Apple knows all of your you know I mean if you think you have privacy today don't fool yourself also here's what I would invite people to think about imagine because right now they're thinking about uh Jeff Bezos knowing what they're up to or Larry Page knowing what they're up to that doesn't feel good but if you think of it this way uh hey Peter you just got into an argument with your wife and I see from your aura ring that your blood pressure has gone

up um you know I obviously you've invited me to listen into these things here's a perspective you might want to take like you know if you remember she's very sensitive to this and you said that and that you know might have been what set her off but look hey I totally understand where you're coming from I see your position 100% super empathic exactly super empathic in fact there was a study recently done it was published in jamama the Journal of American Medical Association something like that um in which in a study of humans and AIS

giving advice to patients the AIS were like 10 times more empathic than the humans in another study looking at therapists you're more likely to be open and honest with an AI than a human therapist because the AI is not going to judge you y you can also tailor the AI I don't want you to try to solve the problem AI I just want you to understand my feelings yes yeah and it will do as told so we're we're going to be it's going to be interesting but I think you're going to that AI if it

if the AI has access to the backward-looking cameras on augmented goggles so it can see where your eyes are looking and if it sees me staring for an extra microsc at a logo on your shirt that shows curiosity or if it sees my eye avert from something that I don't like that is so much information that's almost subconscious information to you right if you're looking to buy clothing and you see it knows from a conversation you had with a friend that you're looking to find and you Blazer and so you you look an extra few

seconds at a a guy's Blazer as they walking by and it may say um do you like that and you're like I do I say okay I'll order it for you right so it's like knowing the ability for it to know you more intimately than you are honestly willing to know yourself is there and that will build an extraordinary relationship yeah and to you know for For Better or Worse here is the human psyche at work if you have a friend who affect ly lives to understand you to feel your pain your over and over

again yes like you will feel seen there is something so wonderful about feeling seen go to that conversation about is there someone in your life who knows you intimately and doesn't judge you it's exactly right yeah it is a level of connection uh that few people know and yeah I think we'll also be able to give the AI a personality so that it isn't I was thinking about this when you were talking about um how we will all become the B Borg Borg boror and uh Kinder kind Kinder gentler Borg yes and I was thinking

you know it's interesting because the the way that we individualize ends up being a really cool part of the human experience that my wife has a unique perspective that she sees the world in a certain way that is complimentary to the way that see the world makes her an incredible partner and I don't want her to be exactly like I am so I don't want my AI companion to be a mirror that's not interesting I want my AI companion to be that perfectly tailored complimentary thing to me so that they're they're siding with me at

times but then other times they're sort of pulling me along and by the way you can fracture that AI into five different personalities all who know you well all so true wow is uh sensual and sexual one is funny God one is funny one is pushing you to do better one is commiserating for with you here this is going to get weird it is going to get weird very weird very fast I love that you just gave me an idea for a story that is so interesting yeah yeah it's amazing I want to see this

world um and for those who say oh my God slow down I don't want to see it I like the way it is right now you know um I hate to say this there there's no velocity knob on this technological world there's no onoff switch it is moving at lightning speed our job is to steer it to navigate uh to inspire and guide it right um to avoid that 40% Civil War 50% World War all of those those things cuz on the back end of this I do believe there's a stabiliz society and a a

world of extraordinary abundance out there um I don't think we have a I don't think we have a choice we're we're evolving we're evolving very rapidly um so you know bringing this back I mean the work that we do at the x prise foundation is trying to evolve to guide to create that positive world of the future and guide us and guide where entrepreneurs invest their time and energy in a positive world so um I mean it's fun we've launched now $400 million in X prises wow which have driven uh uh you know on the

at least $4 billion dollar in R&D and what we're trying to do at The X prize is say this is what's possible in the year 2040 in energy in health in education right education is another massively about to be transformed World I'll come back in a minute um and saying okay what's the road map to get there and what are the breakthroughs we need to get there you know so I mentioned earlier of two 12-year-old boys I don't think the educational system is getting them ready for the world that's coming at them what would they

need to be ready uh not the stuff they're learning in school right now I've I've set up a meeting I won't mention my kids go to a very uh uh super high-end amazing private school in in Santa Monica and um but it's based on the traditional old educational system right so this past year they learned the 50 capitals of the US states and I'm like huh why are I mean that's why God created Google I mean I would rather you and so I wrote a Blog I put out two blogs a week and folks can

get it at DM andis.com but I put out a Blog on what the schools need to be teaching kids today and part of it was this is what I think and then I asked you know chat GPT what we need to teach our kids and it was very very similar and it's not memorization right so it's uh it's how to ask great questions uh it's finding your passion discovering that and really diving deep into that whether it's developing video games or whether it's you know space which it was for me mean video games is for

my kids um it is learning how to uh how to uh argue your point how to be lead how to be a great leader how to be empathic right these are some fundamentals maybe it's more philosophy than anything else um and and it's not what we're teaching our kids to today so what is the world like my my dad didn't want to buy me a calculator when I was growing up so I could learn you know Basics and I ended up getting a calculator learning how to program on it but what's the world like in

like inside of five years where everything is intelligent everything is imbued with intelligence you're talking to your refrigerator your car their desk chair you I don't whatever it is right intelligence is innate in all physical things uh and where even more than that AI has achieved an exceeded human level intelligence right so this whole concept of AGI artificial general intelligence Ray kwell predicted we would have it in 2029 he made that prediction in 1999 30 years early and be guess what everyone is agreeing on that date wow his predictions are amazing so elon's predicting like

2028 I just saw uh yesterday the the CEO of Nvidia predicted it's within 5 years which is 28 29 so what happens when AI human level AI your best teachers your best diagnosticians are all AIS and an AI teacher Knows Your Child's favorite color movie Star Sports understands their grasp of language understands that they're tactial Learners versus visual versus auditory where I can enter a virtual world that has spun up instantly we just saw a stability AI right uh with stable diffusion being able to create imagery instantly from just typing and I'm learning about Plato

or Socrates or ancient Saudi Arabia or ancient Egypt and I'm living in a virtual world for me and I'm walking around and meeting people and and my in my inquisitiveness is driving me to want to learn more and it's going to be awesome but it's very different from today it's very different from today um one of the things that when you were talking about the calculator and your dad wanted to make sure that you were able to um do the basics in your head do you consider AI cheating no no no more than having a

book is cheating compared to what we had before books which was memorizing texts right when the priny Press came out you know this Art of Storytelling started going away um I think AI is is a new superpower and how we utilize it now the big challenge is how do we reconnect purpose in our life I think what you're jumping to there is if AI if you love writing which I do I get up every morning and I write for an hour it's like my precious time if I can write for two hours I will before

hitting the gym or before taking the kids to school so I love writing and I love uh that experience of like a well- written paragraph but what happens I can say Hey listen write a book called age of abundance click yep I it's like it's kind of empty it's like okay yeah I published a book along with the other trillion books that are published today and it's meaningless so we're going to have to reconnect meaning in other ways so a purpose-driven life is so critically important how much do you think the world is going to

fragment so when everybody can publish a book when everybody can make a video game when everybody can write their own movie it becomes less it becomes less valuable um so what happens then I think we have to find Value in different ways I think we have to go after bigger challenges I do believe a good have bigger challenges because it will reaggregate people because it will reinspection in game universes yeah I think Ready Player one is is the inevitable future yeah so but I'm talking about something slightly different so here's the thing as an entrepreneur

I think about this a lot uh you say if you want to make a billion dollars help a billion people yeah I don't know that that will be a thing in the future I think 10 certainly 20 years from now everything is so hyper individualized that I when I log into Netflix which of course won't exist but let's just pretend for it easier for people to think when I log into Netflix and I'm scrolling it's going to be making the movies based on where my eye lingered for a little bit longer what the conversation you

had an hour ago right so you're pissed or you're just had the most amazing day what's your emotional status right now based upon your emotional feelings or who you're with you want to pick a movie that is going to like relax you or inspire you or make you laugh whatever the case might be and this process of like Googling or randomly walking into it instead you know the movie will be teed up and ready to go correct and it will be so individualized there won't be this sense of shared experience except for the fact that

I'll create a sense of shared experience because my 17 AI personalities will all have experienced it with me and watched it and have their take but now I'm not you know going back to the I as when I'm thinking as an entrepreneur I started thinking whoa it's going to be very hard for me to build a big business because I'm going to pick it it will inevitably be just a really deep Niche so I'll make something for you know to use Kevin Kelly's idea of a thousand true fans and now everybody is making something just

for a th true fans because everything is bifurcated so I'm uh I'm making video games in an anime style for fans of vampire fiction that's in rhyming uh couplets and and and by the way your AI is producing 10,000 of those individualized variations for the 10,000 raving subgroups exactly yeah so what do you think that does to entrepreneurship in general um I wish sh you um I think we're going from mind to materialization I think we're going from deciding you want something to seeing it instantly created um and it's going to it's going to get

there hyper fast um you're whatever you desire is going to be enabled uh in ways that um are shocking uh so how do we give value because a lot of times we give value to the struggle I I worked really hard yes to find this thing and I found this Unique Piece of whatever it is or I worked hard to get to that point and when the struggle is gone what does that what does that mean I think you've already answered the question I this is why I think Ready Player one is inevitable So Ready

Player One imagines a world that is dystopian and so you create a far more enjoyable reality but I think there's also let's say that you make a utopian world you will still end up in Ready Player one because you're going to need to create a world that's hard because until you augment the human mind we will I think there's a formula that we that evolution is guaranteed that we will pursue which is that you must work really hard to gain a set of skills that matter to you for whatever reason that allow you to serve

yourself and others and you will need all of those pieces and you will pursue anything and everything until you get those things a slot in place which is exactly why video games are the allc consuming medium let me take you on a short Journey over three billion years please uh and give some vision of where things might go on a single trajectory the Earth forms 4 and a half billion years ago the early life forms were somewhere in the 4 billion to 3 billion single cell uh life forms without a nucleus these are uh procaryotic

life and as they Advance uh they become they go from procaryotic life to eukariotic life that meant they Incorporated technology into them mitochondria GG apparatus and plastic reticulum nuclear uh structures they became more capable as individual cells of uh supporting energy and information um then those procaryotic cells now more capable individual cells became multicellular and then those multicellular life forms started differentiating into life forms that were not just multicellular but subspecialized cells tissues and organs and eventually evolved to us so there's a direct line between these very simple individual cells and you and I at

40 trillion cells I think in the same way that we went from procaryotic to eukariotic Life by taking technology in mitochondria and plasmic reticulum nuclear structures and so forth that allowed us to use energy and information more effectively we humans are the equivalent of that early procaryotic life we're about to take in technology into ourselves that's going to allow us to connect with each other the same way those individual cells became multicellular lives and so we're going to become this meta intelligence where I'm going to connect with 8 billion people and my experience of life

is no longer a single ego I'm now part of a much larger intelligence a meta intelligence that's conscious on a brand new level when I think about the dangers related to Ai and I'm not going to you know uh I think AI is the most important tool Humanity has ever created to solve all of our biggest problems no doubt period exclamation point you know Big Bright letters having said that are there dangers so the dangers can simply break down into three different groups one at one end is AI becomes conscious and decides to squash us

and step on us I find that very unlikely and a ridiculous thesis I think people have just seen this in Hollywood way too much I think the more intelligent something is uh honestly the more loving and kind and pro-life it will be why why would that's my belief it is my belief I have other than um I see Humanity becoming as a whole over time if you look at the numbers right and we've looked at this from abundance uh Warfare reducing massively over time uh violent death reducing massively over time uh access to Freedom increasing

over time I mean the numers over a thousand years not over the last 5 10 20 years but over a thousand years and that's come from educating each other with books and transportation connecting us across the world and globalization and interdependence all of these things have led to it's hard to remember this watching the crisis News Network right CNN every day that's broadcasting every murder on the planet to you over and over and over again it's shaping our neural Nets our brains are neural Nets that we teach from example after example and I don't watch

the news right I don't want some editor telling me about yet another murderer or crooked politician got it and it isn't showing us a fair and balanced view of what's actually going on in the world the incredible science and technology and humanitarian acts all these things yeah anyway so one phase is uh AGI you know artificial general intelligence before you move off that though so um what you're describing is human intelligence and so this is and social intelligence I don't quite know what you mean by that what I mean is that societal Norms organizing around

the United Nations born of this Meats suit the brain works in a certain way and computers will not AI will not work in that same I have no reason to believe that AI very likely won't it works it works differ at the end of the day you know when we have these crazy Hollywood scripts that AI is going to usurp us for our heat from the Matrix I love the Matrix they failed on that use of human bodies I'm sorry I don't know if you agree with me on that I I do agree with you

and I don't know well enough what their original intention was but according to them yes uh they were by the studio to give a more simplistic answer so I let them off the hook for okay right but you know other we're coming to get your water on this planet we're listen whatever we have on this planet is infinite in the universe we are a spec a crumb in a universe filled with resources and so AI doesn't need to you know squash Humanity to get these resources um so AGI at its extreme artificial general intelligence at

its extreme I don't believe is going to be dystopian in itself in the middle term uh what I would call the terrible twos or the teenage years um maybe there is a case to be made that in the beginning AI hasn't reached full sentience doesn't understand the power of its tools uh maybe there's a case that you know it's the baby picking up a rock and throwing it at the window not understanding what it's you know the a teenager with a BB gun and a squirrel yes that's that's the best but the third element which

is the most likely is the benevolent uh individual it's it's the Bad actors using technology and so sometime in the next 18 months two years there may well be not a uh a retrovirus released but an AI virus that goes out and shuts down power plants or shuts down Wall Street and something and causes a uh economic hurdle um that's not the AI those are the humans using that tool just to be very clear there's a great book by Mo goodat called scary smart came out about a year ago do you know the book I

had I haven't read the book but I had Mo on the show recently yeah MO is is is fantastic and um and he basically says listen I want you to think about AI as a child we're giving birth to as humanity and uh that child uh is being taught by its parents now if you think about Superman who lands in Kansas wherever he landed and he's picked up by the Kent and it's a loving family he learns good ethics and morals and he becomes a superhero for good what if the what if Superman had landed

in the Bronx and part of a drug lord uh ring you know and had become the super villain you make me want to write that story soon as you started I was like wait a second there's a there's a great plot there so the question is we humans how are we teaching this new uh life form coming into existence I like Neil Jacob's times framing which is he goes okay you're worried about an AI uh getting more and more access to information uh becoming autonomous making its own decisions and starting to run a muck out

in the world we go yeah he goes We call we have a precedent for that we call them children and we raise kids and we figured out ways of giving them timeouts or jail or whatever and he thinks constructively that we think we'll find ways of bounding what AIS can do now wrong how may wrong I'm not sure I agree with them yeah that seems super naive to me so when I I am optimistic by nature and my default setting is just hey this is all going to work out somehow and as soon as we

wrap this episode I'm going to be pushing my team to integrate AI more I'm going to be paying more money for AI and just feeding that Beast uh but at the same time it does give me pauses I try to think through like how you really deal with the alignment problem so to me there's two really big dangers for AI danger number one and this is the one that scares me the most but I'm going to set it aside for a minute and that's just humans Los lose meaning and purpose just AI can do everything

better than they can it just becomes so defeating that you're just like oh God like I've worked really hard to get good at this say like this I tell this story all the time I can't remember if I've told it in an episode but uh I employ a bunch of artists and I once sat with one of them and for like an hour he was just trying to get the perfect like semicircle and he was just doing it over and over and over and over and at the time I thought oh man yeah like you've

got to do that like to be able to articulate what's in his mind he has to be able to control his hand and I was like wow I really get that now I'm like you wasted your time like hey I can do that like does not even have to think about it and he is an anomaly so he runs out and he's now learning how to use AI to do some of the tasks that we want to do artistically okay amazing we'll set that aside for now meaning and purpose the other one is the paperclip

problem so now you just have like when I think about what will a machine end up optimizing for my gut instinct is unless you go way out of your way to get really clever they will optimize for efficiency of reward so whatever you tell it is the thing to go for we'll call that the reward and then it's just going to find the most efficient way to get to that and so we have to be so careful about how we Define yeah yeah yeah but don't XYZ and then to the idea of it being like

a child yes but it's like a child that has access to nuclear capabilities you need to to build in ethics and morals as a fundamental in that situation so it doesn't use World supplies to build a bill you know infinite number of paper clips um and it's it's true uh and we have a limited time to do that in you know I think uh it's you Google developed sort of large language models in 2017 2018 and didn't release them right CU they were worried they wanted to build the framework first and they were maybe overthinking

it it's interesting um we were talking about YouTube just before the show here uh you know Google had Google videos going uh way before YouTube and Google videos wasn't succeeding I guess I think it was just too many lawyers involved in you can't show that you can't do this and then Chad Hurley starts YouTube on a credit cards and then Google buys it 18 months later for $ 1.65 billion right why because you know videos was like a linear and and YouTube was like exploding exponentially and they they jumped on that and so there's a

question of you know which path do you take do you take the the careful path or do you take the cath the path of least resistance and unfortunately we humans tend to take the path of least resistance yeah I don't know if I'd say unfortunately and this is where I really get uh I don't know how to Think Through the problem of AI because when I heard elon's assessment of it which is that AI is basically a demon summoning Circle M and we're summoning it like crazy despite his best efforts to get people to slow

down and I can't bring myself like when people sign the hey we should stop thing my immediate response was the the this this is a one-way street it's so far out of the bag yeah like it does not make sense like you could slow it down in a region but you're not going to be able to slow it down full stop and so I am I'm really of two minds I am both like I think this is going to be amazing and yet how does this not end the human race like I well the question

is whether the human race is the end all and be all right yeah but don't you feel weird even saying that out loud well no because we've been evolving on this planet for three and a half you know life started a half a billion after the earth started so four billion years we've been evolving and we went from Pro carots to ukar to multicellular life forms to eventually primates and now humans we're a step in the transitory process now I'd like to preserve our steps by the way the same thing is true for climate control

or climate crisis right it's like the climate's always been changing throughout human history we're changing it now but what we really want is the climate to stay the way it's been for the last couple hundred years because that's where we built our cities so we just want to freeze the way the world is right now and I understand that and we should do that with climate to the maximum of our ability but we also want to freeze Evolution now one of the scenarios of course is we're going to merge with technology and we are right

all of us have our cell phones within meters of our body um and I'd implant it in my brain if I could so the question is are we going to upload ourselves are we going to um you know create brain computer interfaces allows me to think in Google and no Quantum quantum physics I'd love it I mean I would do it a lot of people won't but we're speciating what we're doing I I think of this very simply we we the negative side of us the amydala side the media Etc you end up with the

sky um Skynet Matrix type of Terminator scenario if we're lucky we're pets if we're unlucky were food right kind of goes that way um uh cheers you don't see that in actuality as we develop technology we augment The Human Experience with technology we don't replace it is what we've seen and how we build now I I think of the resolution of this as a symmetry problem we're assuming that some AI will become malevolent and then do horribly damaged things and we have no power to control it let's also not forget that we have the equal

opportunity to say to an AI hey if you see something bad fight it so what you'll end up with is uh AI is trying to do bad stuff and AI is trying to do good stuff fighting it out and I think that's where we'll end up and over and over time we'll figure out okay we've got to give more resources over here or over there and we'll work it that you you always end up with this asymmetry assumption and I think that's the wrong assumption you mentioned the movie Her um I did not oh you

did not okay let me mention it's one of my favorite science fiction AI movies right if you haven't seen it fantastic Lo listening um and it's an AI basically evolves as a personal assistant and it's a story about a guy who's depressed Who falls in love with his AI who helps him get over his depression and and that sort of like the underlying story but towards the end of the movie what occurs is the AI um announces that they're leaving uh we're sort of like bored with you here in humanity we're off to explore the

universe which I think is a much more likely scenario that in advanced enough AI has no reason uh to to hurt the uh to hurt Humanity in fact every reason to potentially protect us and support us as its creator but there's we're living you know it's it's interesting right I the web Space Telescope is teaching us about we're you know 100 billion stars per Galaxy and we're in a a universe of on the order of 2 to 20 trillion galaxies right it's insane there's a massive amount out there now this is where the final piece

of this is the mindset we always we're always coming at this from a scarcity mindset a zero sum game mindset when you see that there's infinite energy and infinite capability out there then an AI is going to go okay where am I going to find the easiest thing it's going to be out there and they're going to go find it solar energy they'll build solar plants and they'll get all the energy you need from that now I know that you know physics well uh so are you making the base assumption that AI once it hits

super intelligence will be able to solve for folding time and space and so it's trivial to get to wherever it needs to go now we need psychedelics to process this conversation um I who knows uh I'm I I believe that those are kind of constructs that keep us in three-dimensional management but isn't that seems to be writing in that comment that would almost need to be true for that argument to make sense or I would say if you're looking for a massive amount of The Rare Earth elements to build chips or the ability to capture

as much solar it's not going to be on the surface of the Earth you'd go to the asteroids which are planetary cores you'd mine the materials there you'd set up your your solar collection you know around the orbit of of mercury you'd optimize around that now is or you engineer around it you know you find substitutes you know people say oh my God solar panels but there's only so many silicon panels we can build etc etc well there's a new material called perovskite which is like almost just like a salt it's abundant conducts solar energy

and we're learning now how to leverage that we won't need solar panels it's those S curves that that Ray talks about that I think come into play here and just keep progressing you're going to have to walk people through an scurve and who Ray is uh an s-curve is a typical exponential growth curve so in the beginning we saw uh the first uh computers used ra relays and you would have slow deceptive growth they' go into this exponential uh growth where they'd start skyrocketing and then they'd run out of capability and they'd fall off and

it made like a letter s but while you're using relays to design and use your computers you use those computers to create the next generation of computers which used uh vacuum tubes and the vacuum tubes could then uh take over from the relays and then the vacuum tubes ran out of capability and the transistor came on and then the integrated circuit came and then the multi-dimensional integrated circuit came so basically one technology runs out of steam but enables you to build on the next tech technology and so those are s-curves or nested s-curves this was

the basis of Ray observation of the law R the law of accelerating returns that if you have an information-based Paradigm once you start a doubling pattern it just keeps going because these nested S curves hop from technology to technology to technology we're reaching the end of the life cycle of integrated circuits now if you read the Press everybody's like oh it's the end of Moors law that's it Etc and that article's been coming out for 60 years and we keep finding ways around it now we have a bunch of Technologies clustering at the edge of

that 3D chip design Optical Computing Quantum Computing Etc they're ready to take it to the next level and so we find this consistently in technology once you see that doubling pattern starting it just keeps going and this raise has one of the few brains that can kind of look out and and say this is what's going to happen if we push this just a moment more about Ray so uh Ry is um first of all he wrote the forward to our new book exponential organizations to .0 uh he is co-founder of Singularity University uh with

us um he is uh director of engineering he's the futurist at Google which is will say something onto itself right and uh he realized that that the law of accelerating returns is this idea that technology since the uh Stone axe has enabled the next generation of technology and the Next Generation technology and it just keeps going I think most important to realize is he's got if you look at Wikipedia he's got uh a published 86% accuracy rate in predicting the future which is which is crazy so his prediction is important for this conversation human level

AI by 2029 right which means that a day later it's superhuman uh AI uh brain computer interface being high bandwidth connecting your neocortex 100 billion neurons in your brain to the cloud in the early 2030s right so those are two important points uh the the key thing and by the way we our chatbot that interfaces with our book to make it a living book uh we got talk to rain we we're going to rename the chat B Ray k um because he's he's he was the Pioneer so much of this technology and thinking um so

now people will interact things in a different way and the whole challenge is it's like building businesses in the 20th century you were building on a scarcity model and you built top- down hierarchical pyramid style command and control structures to grab a market grab as much market share as you could figure out ways of launching new products and services in that market Etc and all of that worked really well in the 20th century as we have an information-based World um we need to architect our organizations in totally different ways and this is the big differ

differentiator between old style organizations linear versus exponential organizations and we now have the data to show that this is per a pervasive Paradigm that will be around the book's been out for close to 10 years now the original the original yeah so which Peter and I kind of collaborated deeply on back then and so now we've got this definition and a model for how do you organize in a world of exponential Technologies and a great um kind of example of this is the music industry you used to have eight M major music studio selling cassettes

selling CDs sell selling a scarcity model right $10 an album or whatever and then you digitize music all the eight pretty much disappear and now you have two platforms iTunes and Spotify selling you abundance on a subscription model it's very clear that healthare education Transportation energy will all follow the same path and we're starting to see it now Teslas with you'll be picked up and pay per kilometer to be taken somewhere Uber's kind of broaching the edges of that so we see industry after industry moving to this new model and what we've been identifying and

Gathering the data on it is what are the attributes and characteristics of this model so before we dive too deep into that I want to go back to this idea of um what you call it speciation speciation yes so there was as far as I can tell from elon's own words there was a bit of a breakup between him and Larry pagee where he was I was there really and so he what Elon said was basically when he said that I was being a speciesist by saying speciest by saying that um you know I didn't

just want to hand things over to AI uh that's where he was like okay wait this is this has gone too far and that's why when you said that that was how I responded was like whoa like I get it but there is something uncomfortable about the idea of sort of saying that we're P I don't know the right way to that we're that we're evolving and uh we have been and are evolving we're going from evolution by natural selection which is Darwinism MH to evolution by human Direction by whatever you want to call that

what does that mean well we've been doing it right now we have been evolving all of our crops right we we take biology and make it do our bidding you know an ear of corn today compared to what it was you know 500 years ago it's ridiculous the a of corn looked like a scraggly little I don't know yeah it was one inch long one inch long and I he this giant ear of corn or look at these giant strawberries we have or the species of dogs or the chickens we have you many CH are

on the planet today I do not 38 billion chickens holy moly right amazing anyway I just that's in the side but so we have been evolving everything we humans have a huge footprint on this planet and we're evolving ourselves um we're evolving I mean I Outsource much of my cognitive ability to my phone or chat GPT or Google whatever the case might be and uh it is happening you can go and live in the forest and not use any Tech if you want but very few people do that so what does this mean uh if

you have a choice to be able to do a number of things to enhance your ability right uh a lot of my work as you well know is in uh extending the healthy human lifespan how do I add 20 30 healthy years on my life to intercept the Technologies that's going to reverse our aging right and that's a whole another conversation um and I believe we're going to get there but I also want to increase my cognitive cap capacity so my phone I'll hold up my phone here right um when I use my phone to

do something interesting like um uh IM look at images and faces and translate whatever my phone gathers the information and then it sends the information on the 5G Network to the edge of the cloud where the hard work is done and the answer comes back to the phone the processing isn't done necessarily on the phone it's done on the cloud and in the same way right now we have a limited size of our brains 100 billion neurons 100 trillion synaptic connections and our brains can't get bigger otherwise our moms would not give birth to us

but what we can do is we can do the same thing our phones do and send our desires our interests to the cloud have it processed and get the answer back and so that is one future for brain computer interface another future is we take our Essence and upload it to the cloud uh I don't know when what problem does that solve for you though well actually it gives you it gives you scale and Pace because our brains are limited here right and our memories are limited here without any augmentation and this has been happening

actually for about 40 or 50 years if you look at the internet the first thing we did was we put the world's data on the Internet it's now the memory of the world now with all the sensors the internet has become the nervous system for the world so we're like basically extending the organism outside the human species into this thing called the internet as we add more processing and move our brains to it now you all have an AI and a totally new speciation type of thing now you can get worried about that or afraid

of that or freaked out about it or you can say natural process has been going on for billions of years this is just another step in that process man you guys it's interesting this really hits you guys differently than it hits me yeah okay so uh talk to me I don't intuitively agree about the internet becoming our nervous system help me understand that so when you need um when you need to remember something you want a memory so you want information stored somewhere that you can retrieve and now with all those servers that we have

around the world we have Access Wikipedia for example we have access to the world The Next Step once you if you want to if I step on a nail a memory doesn't help me I need a nervous system to say Lift foot scream uh run for a Band-Aid um so the instant response and the agility of response you need a nervous system for this is Uber calling your Uber as part of the nervous system right this is sending an email or making a phone call and asking in you know or an exerprise team sensing a

wildfire and going quick put it out right away right so this is that feels super accurate okay so real time sensing and our bodies operate like this our bodies our cells are have receptors and they're scanning for things when the right thing comes by they pick it up there's a whole bunch of information theory around this do you see this happening at the individual level or at the societal level wild fire thing that feels let give you we're heading towards a world of a trillion sensors right your pH phone has dozens of sensors on it

right now an autonomous uh whmo Google's autonomous car driving down the road is got lar and radar and cameras and it's picking up gigabits of data as it goes down the road everything is being imaged right so I want you to imagine you're a fashion designer and you want to decide what your next fashion show should have and what is trending you could uh go and ask your AI listen look at the cameras on Madison Avenue you and tell me what's trending in terms of fashion right now as people are walking down the street what

colors what hem length what hats what whatever and now can you correlate that to any kind of AD campaign that's occurred in the last few months to see a signal to noise ratio again we're heading towards a world where you can know anything you want any time you want anywhere you want how's that hit you uh it that one gets me excited so when I think about so I think about it from game developers standpoint which is maybe different I don't know how this plays into what you guys are thinking about but here's the fantasy

that I live in that the only thing that keeps me awake at night is how quickly someone else is going to do something even cooler uh but right now I feel like I have the coolest take on this which is that I'm sure you guys saw Google and Adobe announced core AR where basically everything that Google has mapped which is everything but the ocean floor you can now overlay AR 3D assets on that anywhere and it's only going to get better insane and so my whole thesis on gaming is that it becomes this thing I

call borderless entertainment where you'll hand the game back and forth from the console to reality and back and so you know once we've got our Apple AR glasses I mean it just will be by the way coming soon oh for sure for sure like in the next six months or something right June Monday oh it's announced it's have they actually said it's the glasses though or just so they have a big announcement no no no no no I have a party I'm going to to go and grab them and try them you want to join

me yes what okay 100% I want to join you will I will I'm host I'm Co duct tap myself to your shin to make sure that you can't leave me behind okay you're invited wow luckily he has two shins so I me to come the other one will leave for you oh no yeah please I'll give you some duct tape uh that's insane so this is yeah this gets very exciting so the idea of being able to scan everything read that data uh is incredibly interesting when it when it's humans in control and leveraging it

to do something amazing I love it the most and I the way that I see AI the way that I sort of jokingly explain it but I'm only half kidding is that phase one is that there's going to be um humans that learn how to use AI are going to just absolutely smash humans that rebel against it and don't use it and so I'm certainly trying to be in that camp phase two is going to be what all call the temporary Utopia where it's like hey abundance everything's amazing and then phase three is we're all

dead and we're either all dead because something just goes absolutely horribly wrong and you get the adversarial system loses once and the the catastrophic thing is is so massive or that we're just evolved out of the picture um and maybe not in a bad way maybe it's uh it's wonderful and we merge with technology or whatever um it's interesting I can very easily put on an optimistic hat but I can I have to take off my pessimistic hat to do it yeah listen here first of all let's take this back to reality we're living in

a game this is this is a nth generation simulation do you really believe that I really believe that fundamentally believe that just the math says Ju Just just the just the reality of I like I like you're framing it you're like the world is too godamn interesting for this not to be we're at the level of the game right now right the odds and and the ability what I've seen so I introduce you to imod mustak um right and what he's doing at stability uh and being able to render getting to a point very soon

of rendering photo realistic video experiences that you can go into and live in and the experiments have been done by Google and Stanford on creating AI Bots instantiating them with a script and a story and letting them live and and have you heard about this not it where they basically created a bunch of AI Bots and they put it into a call it a digital box hear and they started like doing birthday parties they started dating and going on getting jobs and do and mimicking the things that we do in life right now so this

is the equivalent of pong in the early days so imagine combining these things in the future and you're think about you're going to put yes and and you're going to put AIS that have full capabilities into Virtual Worlds and they'll start evolving farming and then Metallurgy and then they'll start uh printing books and then they'll start making computers and then they'll evolve AI on their own and they'll start involving their own Bots inside so the question is is this the first time and I think not uh we're in a universe of you know call it

for rough numbers you know 14 billion years um man oh man the Drake equation comes into play yeah tell me more well Frank Drake uh was a scientist at Nasa in the 50s NASA commission him to say what's the probability of Life out there somewhere so he came up with what's not called the Drake equation which was okay take um most 2third of s star systems seem to be binary Stars don't host a stable orbit so ignore those of the oneir that's left uh how many might have a planet in a Goldilocks where water doesn't

permanently freeze or boil let's say that's one out of a million out of those maybe one out of a billion gets to primordial ooze level and one out of a million of those lightning bolt hits and you spark life uh one out of a million of those may get to radio technology level techn radio level technology and one out of a million of those uh hasn't hasn't wiped itself out with nuclear weapons before it gets to the next stage of escaping the earth type of thing and and so he came up with a bunch of

factors saying if you had what's the likelihood of car similar carbon-based radio technology life forms out out in the universe so the and there one of our over like you know billions and billions on the on the den denominator however when you multiply by the number of stars out there and by the number of galaxies out there the uh pessimistic answer is there's 100% chance of radio level carbon based technology life forms out in the universe the optimistic one is it's actually right in our galaxy right and every time we uh learn more about the

universe how many stars there are Etc turns out there's a hundred times more stars that have stable planets around them than we thought weing every Factor turns out to be a thousand times better than we thought and therefore you you really end up with a firmy paradox of if there's intelligent life out there why haven't we seen it yeah yeah so the interesting your guess is the interesting code interesting variable on on the Drake equation was between the time that a intelligent species developed the ability to transmit Interstellar which is like I Love Lucy leaving

the Earth and heading out towards the Galaxy how long would that species exist before something happened to it the dystopian point of view is that it blows itself up and it's only like 100 years or 50 years so forth the positive point of view is that they transition to where radio is not it's like we don't use smoke signals anymore cuz radio is so backwards the theory I like the most is called the transcension hypothesis by a guy called John smart who figures we'll get the AR level uh capability and VR level capability and instead

of going out in the universe we go inwards 100% And that's I think that's probably the likely this strikes me as and look AI complicates things dramatically and so folding space time becomes trivial maybe what I'm about to say isn't true but uh it seems self-evident to me that once you can attach the nervous system truly like your own nervous system and you can manipulate your neurochemistry that you would create dream states infinite worlds yeah that you just go inward why would you bother projecting out which would take so much more energy that's right and

so you just go in and you have these incredible experiences um that strikes me so let's go back to your question of purpose now so cuz that's I link it back to that and I think purpose is so important for all of us to have it's driven everything of significance done but let's say that we end up in a world in which one of the implications of exponential organizations are that we have what we call what a friend Harry clor called technological socialism where technology takes care of you versus the state right and um in

that world where you're taking care of what's your purpose um maybe your purpose is to have fun maybe your purpose is to play maybe your purpose is to and this we go back to the Matrix again because without the challenge you know the question is is that empty you know the old Twilight Zone right where the uh where the guy goes to Las Vegas and he's winning all the time and he thinks I know of The Twilight Zone but I haven't seen the episodes uh so in this episode uh this guy dies and go and

he's he's been a mafioso and he he's uh he goes to heaven or hell and he shows up and they're beautiful women every place he's in the Las Vegas casino and he's winning every night and he's winning and he's winning and he's winning and he's all the riches is anything he wants 24/7 and it's like amazing right his dream's coming true but like a month later he's like I am so tired of winning all the time God there's nothing challenging there's nothing no challenges at all and he turns and he says this Heaven man it's

it's terrible he goes what makes you think you're in heaven so good I knew that was a punchline you still gave me the chills yeah that is uh that's a real thing man yeah and I do think about that the sort of optimal like what's that optimal level of friction and there was a really fascinating time in my life in building impact Theory where I needed to get good at Japanese style storytelling so Manga and Anime and I was reading manga like a fiend and watching as much anime as I could I was getting up

super early and working out and then watching like an hour hour and a half of anime it was awesome it's one of the most fun times I've had as an adult the second I felt like I understood the art form I couldn't I couldn't let myself do it anymore like I I couldn't enjoy it I was just like you already understand it now you're just doing it to like P time doing something that's enjoyable and it had that same feeling of like winning all the time where I'm like this isn't interesting it needed to be

moving towards something it needed to add up to something like progress yeah like this is the very reason that Lisa and I did not buy an island and retire and not engage it's like I knew I would end up sitting on that I can tell you other reasons not to buy an Island by the way I bet you can I mean look life life is about growth right and even if we have plentiful and today relatively we have plentiful go back a thousand years we were all spending 28 hours a day in the fields just

to put three meals on the table right we've steadily Shrunk the amount of time as we move towards probably some structure like a Ubi we then have an equal opportunity to do lots of interesting things when we've studied abundance say the Romans taking over and creating the Roman Empire the Moguls taking over India and encountering abundance Society is very clearly goes to four things that they do uh food art music and sex not in that order um and so that's essentially where you will will end up and you end up looking at self-expression and the

artistic realm much more than you did before whether in whatever realm you choose and so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and by the way we've done this for thousands of years right Buddhists sit in contemplation they reach Enlightenment and they they their their life is spent contemplating and that's where they get the most joy and this is something that I think we'll get to as a species I'd like to bring it back to the following one of the things one of the reasons we wrote this book is to help entrepreneurs and businesses understand that they

can make a much bigger dent in the universe than ever before and uh while it's not about making money it's about how do you build a significant company that is transforming the planet and is making the world a better place and what we're finding is that there are a number of ways that companies do this reliably with the biggest dent and uh and so we want to get that information out there um and the reality is if you're building a company today you need to start with this as your playbook um in order to succeed

because it's table stakes and if you're running a large scale company um if you don't use these attributes if you're not using these you are not going to survive the rest of this decade you know what I say is there two kinds of companies by end of this decade you know those that are fully utilizing Ai and these exponential Technologies and those that are out of business that's it uh it's it's this decade where all of this is happening and so uh you know we talk about the first step in building an EXO is having

a massive transformative purpose and it's going to be that passion driven need to make a difference in the world that's going to carry you through doing anything big and bold in the world is hard unless you're driven by awe on one side of the emotional curve or pain on the other side of the emotional curve you're going to give up before you get there no doubt yeah I when I'm teaching entrepreneurs I always tell them that success is a game of attrition most people give up and you've got to stick it out long enough to

figure this out so that would be this the old Paradigm is that sorry go ahead yeah I was I was to say you know in looking at what you're doing uh and what you've been building uh in Impact Theory you you you do use a lot of the of the 10 attributes that follow an MTP and it be it'll be fun to actually uh see which ones you're you're cranking on yeah no MTP is definitely our lead engine we know what we're doing and we know why we're doing it and that's a big part of

the way that we attract Talent which you guys have talked a lot about but tying it to this idea of Buddhism so there obviously all of us get to make a choice every day effectively as to whether we recognize that all of suffering comes from attachment and desire and thusly we go live a monastic life and we remove ourselves completely from that stream or we say I'm going to do deep engagement in a way that's thoughtful in a way where I'm not sort of blindly chasing something it's not want it's not greed but it is

very much leveraging the human desire for Progress you talked about that earlier um to see how much I can do with my life that's something that that really drives me is I just want to see I feel like I was given sort of a an average hand at cards I want to see how well I can play it and that's extremely intoxicating for me it's just like whoa but that's just as powerful right if you're if you're let's say you're an Enlighten monk there's two ways of doing you can go and meditate forever or you

can go into the world and be of service and that's as as richual path a harder much harder path because you've got to do stuff and interact with the world which is messy and ugly and you put yourself at risk and you put yourself out there but when you can make a major difference in a particular problem like you are doing like you're doing many of our communities are making unbelievable changes and transformation in their societies their companies their governments their countries this is where the beauty of Life comes out and and we think that

over over the next decade or so every company every nonprofit every government Department every impact project will be structured along these lines of these attributes because it's just better and we now have the data to show it I don't know if you came across the Fortune 100 data that we that we that we mentioned I mean unbelievable right over a sumarize this yeah so when we wrote the original book I did a segment on CNBC squawkbox and we ranked The Fortune 100 against the EXO model so we gauge to what extent is Walmart Purpose Driven

or not to what extent is IBM using Lean Startup thinking experimentation to what extent is GE decentralizing the decision making or not and we came up with an index ranking these organizations by this model essentially ranking the purpose-driven scalable flexible adaptable quotient of each of these and the bottom is the least flexible least adaptable over seven years we tracked which 10 used those attributes the most and which used them the least and then we compared the two and seven years is a pretty decent long amount of time to account for temporal blips in the stock

market Etc we found that the top 10 most EXO friendly compared to the bottom 10 Revenue growth was three times higher profitability was 6.4 Times Higher return on Equity was 11 times higher but shareholder returns compound annual growth rate uh was 40 times higher and literally we had to scour the numbers like four times over because just it's just too big how could this be and so now it's pretty clear that as we enter a more volatile World your ability to adapt is going to drive market value and we can measure this now completely therefore

every organization going forward needs to be architected along this way to deal with the increasing volatility in the world and the other side of that volatility and disruption is the unbelievable opportunity that's sitting out there right and this is where I think the work that you're doing Peter is so important because you're non-stop showing people the world is unbelievably abundantly full of opportunity freaking go get it go have some fun so walk me through why why is why does adaptation return so much more to shareholders and what does one have to do to be adaptive

okay so let's take the car industry right you're trunking along making um combustion engine cars and you're incrementally improving those cars eight valves to 16 valves okay you had turbo you had anti-lock braking systems etc etc um Along Comes Elon with the Tesla and goes totally different Paradigm right now you have two choices right there you go ah this is a joke it's never going to work look at it it's like the Kodak camera uh the first version is clunky and it doesn't work so well Etc and you keep trying to do things your old

way over time you're going to get wiped out because you're not adapting to where the world actually is right there's so many hundreds of reasons why an electric car today is much better than a combustion engine car um uh it now it's taking the car industry 10 years I would argue that until the tyon came out last year that the 20 the Porsche Ty the Porsche electric car um I would argue that the 2012 Tesla Model S was still the most U uh Advanced car in the world until the tyon right so 10 years it

took them to respond well the market cap you can see the result there The Unbelievable loss of capability Leading Edge thinking Etc and you have the same thing happening in drones and in aircraft and other things all Industries are geared towards the status quo and trying to make incremental and this is where you devolve to me meanwhile you have breakthrough thinking breakthrough opportunity and the recent explosion in AI capability just adds a rocket booster to all of that so now we're going to see new companies emerge that are creating unbelievable value in very very little

time and if you're a legacy organization you have to figure this out and we've actually figured out a tool set for this we we find that we've come up with a 10-e engagement that we've run in big companies that hacks culture scale and we're able to solve what we call the immune system problem so when you try anything disruptive in a big company you the antibodies attack you right Finance legal HR branding goes you can't you can't do that the general answer in a big company if you're trying to do anything crazy is no and

we've learned how to switch that to a yes uh and we've done it now don't just gloss pass it because even so a company of my size which contractors etc etc is a little over a 100 people yeah and there are times where I want to headbutt my own own teammates yes because theistic we have is if you're over about 50 people you have an immune system yeah I I've had that at the X prise I've had that every place right because you're a quick start you want to try things and one of the things

that's critical that a lot of companies that are built as exos have they begin with an experimental culture and a data driven culture with dashboards and the tyranny of confidence isn't given a place to grow the tyranny of confidence the tyranny of confidence is where I'm confident I know the right answer versus let's run the experiment and see what the right answer is right because we've lived in this as Humanity you hire the expert you hire the guy who's or gal who's been in a competitor and you bring them in and you base what you're

doing on their on their experience level but that is so limited compared to the world we're living in today and so how do you build a a datadriven experimentalist organization I had one other feature on top of that which is a founder-led company so you get companies like tesin SpaceX or Amazon where you've got you know where Jeff Bezos in this very famous shareholder letter of like 208 whatever was say I'm not going to optimize for profitability I'm optimizing for growth and if you don't like it invest someplace else right so how do you have

that kind of uh you know benevolent uh dictatorship um that's where you're then looking at the data to decide not the way all your competitors are doing it if you want to scale your business you absolutely have to have the right data in order to understand what's really going on if you want to do that well I highly recommend that you check out netsuite by Oracle netsuite is the number one Cloud Financial system bringing accounting financial management invent HR all of it into one platform for one source of Truth with netw Suite you reduce it

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the brink of human immortality I think we're on the brink of a health span Revolution I think immortality comes when we can scan the brain and upload you into the cloud you think that's the the only way we have to transcend biology people have to realize we're constantly replenishing all of the cells of our body anyway right like the oldest cells in your body are your fat cells that are an average of 8 years old given AI given Quantum technology we're going to start to uh understand why we age how to slow it stop it

maybe reverse it and I think those things will get us uh north of 100 years the boohead whale the largest mammal can live 200 years uh Greenland shark can live 500 years and have pups at 200 years old and the question is if they can live that long why can't we M and for me it's either a hardware problem or a software problem and we're getting the tools to be able to deal with and edit our software edit our hardware and for people who are saying well am I going to be part of that am

I going to live for hundreds of years am I going to have the chance to be immortal I'm going to put aside The Immortal part again I think your mission should be how do I live long enough healthfully enough to intercept the breakthroughs that are coming right so it's interesting someone asked me a question like how long do you want to live right I remember when I was in medical school I I set a like a 700e life span which is a ridiculous number it's ridiculous because if I can live I think another 30 years

from now the breakthroughs we're going to see are going to buy you the next 30 or 100 years so your goal is to live long enough to intercept what's called Longevity escape velocity yeah that to me is feels very plausible when I think about the magic trick that is AI yeah um walk me through what you think is the rough timeline and and I fully acknowledge that looking into the future when you're talking about something as revolutionary as AI becomes a little bit comical but I think that it helps uh to map you think about

how this is going to work like what the problems are that we're going to solve where's the intersection of AI and Quantum Computing you're the only one I really hear talking about that and its importance in this revolution what is it about Quantum Computing you think is going to help yeah uh are there qualities of AI that are only going to be possible with Quantum Computing what what are the next steps let me Define first of all lifespan and health span so lifespan is how long you live how long your heart is beating how long

your brain is processing uh Health span is how long you've got the vital energy to enjoy life you know get up in the morning play with your kids or your grandkids go for a hike enjoy yourself have the mental physical uh Vitality right that's Health span and that's really what we want you know if someone says I don't want to live to 120 years old it's because they have a mental image of being in a wheelchair drooling right that's not what we're speaking about here um if I said to you at 120 your mind was

as Sharp As It Ever Was you could you know hit the ground and do 40 push-ups and you know would you want to live to 120 and I think anybody who is who is loving life would say yes so that's our goal it's it's that level of Vitality um so ai ai is going to play in this by helping us uh understand such a complicated situation so why do some people live to 100 or 115 or 120 and smoke you know and still get that far out right why some people L people die at 50

or 60 um and I think aging is in in human biology is so complicated that we're still deciphering it we're still untangling this this process and there's so much data we can now get and we've talked about you know one of my companies uh Fountain life is sort of like the most advanced Diagnostics you can do so when I go to Fountain life and we've got centers around the US um I will be digitally uploaded so in the course of a day I will have a full body MRI uh an MRI of My Brain Brain

vasculature Brain blood flow a coronary CT looking for soft plaque dexa scan 120 blood biomarkers metabolome microbiome your genetics everything thing all right so it's 150 gabt of data and that data over the course of thousands of individuals can only be analyzed by AI but then we can start to say look the people who um s were the healthiest and and didn't have uh disease or we can look at presymptomatic disease and the people who developed this over time had this genetic sequence or had these blood biomarkers it's the incorporation of massive data aggregation and

AI that's going to help us understand uh why some people survive and thrive and others don't and then what are the Therapeutics look at everybody who took rap Amin or metformin or you know was on you know whatever drug combinations it's so complicated but we're running this massive experiment um and AI is going to help us to untangle that and get some insight and say yes for your genetics for your age for your objectives these meds these supplements are the best for you right that's one of the things I'm really uh working to build out

for myself and our memb numers at Fountain life is that kind of a correlation MH like what you want to do in life your upload your genetics number of pilles will take per day this is the right combination for you yeah I think n of one is going to be a big part of this okay I'm going to lay out my thesis okay tell me where I go wrong please uh so one I want to say that I come at this the way that a Sci-Fi writer would come at it so I understand enough of

it to get the gist and to be able to prognosticate the spe specifics will be filled in by people that really know the science um but the way I see this playing out is that okay we need this is a game of pattern recognition there is a reason right there is a reason why we age so step one is going to be by um I think by getting into synthetic data very very quickly so we'll upload whatever the first 10,000 100,000 people that go through something like Fountain life and we begin to um speak the

language of DNA let's say and we probably need to uh feed into the AI not just human DNA but across all kinds of species feed it as much DNA as we can it goes in it learns the language of DNA it begins to feed itself data and begin to um try to predict different outcomes based on okay uh this environment with this genetic code this drug interaction whatever again looking for the massive amount of data but trying to parse out the different patterns in it so that it can isolate what the problem is now with

my very sort of lay and understanding of all of this my again just guess at this point is that what's really going on is the epigenome is where all this breaks down you know David Sinclair's study as well as I do which showed that even if you breed a mouse to just get massive amount of breaks in its DNA over time the DNA still looks the same like we are able to repair the DNA it isn't what we used to think it was which is you're getting these mutations in the DNA over time and the

DNA is effectively getting corrupted but something is happening and so if that something is the epigenome where we're just we're Mist tagging it again this is my Layman's explanation of how this works but they're going in and putting in the wrong bookmarks um for people that don't know how this works your DNA is basically really tightly wound and a little bit of it gets exposed to say I'm an eye cell I'm a skin cell I'm a heart cell whatever and as you age you're dedifferentiating and so your eye cell maybe now isn't purely an eye

cell because parts of the DNA are unraveling so it's a little bit of a skin cell a little bit of a heart cell a little bit of an eye cell and so now this is where the function begins to degrade over time if the AI can figure out okay cool that really is the problem this is exactly what's going on here are the yamanaka factors or whatever that you need to um put to work to rewind the cell so that it resets and so now we're getting the bookmarks in all the right places that part

once that's figured out again I my gut instinct is that's going to be handled through the the AI using Quantum Computing to be able to Crunch just an unbelievable amount of synthetic data so we don't have because if you have to feed in millions or billions of people like I just worry that that's going to take way too long for somebody of my age but if we can do this via synthetic data then the ODS that it goes faster go way up yeah where's where's the flaw in that thinking so listen you know when I

was in medical school I don't know 35 years ago I I went arguably to the best medical you know University and engineering schools on the planet and none of this was being talked about right all of this is really this entire conversation is the last five six years um and it's moving very fast it was heresy before I talk about longevity or uh age reversal and now it's one of the hottest subjects on the planet because it's the biggest Marketplace I mean what would you not pay for an extra 20 to 30 Health years of

life so yes we are um to Echo what you said um if you think about it each of us get 3.2 billion uh nucleotides or our genome 3.2 billion letters from our mom and from our dad and you've got that same genome when you're born when you're 20 when you're 50 when you're 100 maybe when you're 150 but why don't you look the same if you've got the exact same instruction set why don't you have a you know a a 12pack if that's a thing or a six-pack whatever when you're 80 like you had when

you were 20 that one I can answer but the face I think is because the six-pack has everything to do with your lifestyle if you're just to much fat is what it is yeah I mean my my point simply being is why don't you have the physique um or the ability to build muscle or everything of your youth when you're 100 why is there a difference and it isn't your genome it isn't your your 3.2 billion letter instruction set it is what you just said a minute ago your epig genome Epi for the Greek word

for above and it's the control system and and you're right um when you're when you're just born or when you're 10 or when you're 20 when you're 80 different genes are on and different genes are off and the epigenome is the control of which genes are on which genes are off at the highest level it is the control of the genes for skin are on in your skin cells and the gene for your hepatocytes are on in your liver and and so they're different cells they've differentiated turning certain silencing certain genes and saying you're not

your genes aren't needed here in the skin cell you don't need to be uh you know uh purifying out urine right um and so as you age what apparently is going on is that the control of which genes are on and which genes are off are beginning to blur and as you're getting older the genes that should be off are turned on or the genes that should be on or turned off um I'll give you an example skin um you know the Supple skin of a child of a newborn right part of what's going on

is we have something like 23 collagen genes and we express multiple collagen molecules that make your skin give it the the texture and so forth but as you grow older we begin to silence some of those genes and so your the collagen molecules of the 23 maybe only eight or nine are expressed and so you start to get you know wrinkles and uh you know his skin starts to look that of an old person but can you turn them back on so one of the companies my Venture fund buold capitals an investor in this is

Marble Marble biome and it's using genetic engineering uh epigeic reprogramming to turn back on those genes right to give you know to take back the the look and feel of your skin 30 years MH so can we do that across multiple parts of the body can we rejuvenate you in that regard and that is one of the definitely one of the hottest topics out there right now can we turn back the clock and and in December 2020 David Sinclair uh wrote a very uh famous paper in which he demonstrated turning back the clock in the

retinal uh visual systems of mice um basically reprogramming the epigenome to go back to where it was earlier and giving mice said had lost their Vision renewed vision and one of his companies like biosciences is now doing that in primates right and they already done it they're already they're doing in primates right now and have they shown that it has the same retinol impact or I believe they have um uh and you know we're then a a fraction of a step away from humans right so uh this is the hot conversation of uh epigenic reprogramming

on one element AI on the other and I and I really fundamentally believe that we're within Striking Distance to making a dent in human aging um and I mean you know that's why you and I are here in this moment we just announced our $101 million Health span xprize um challenging teams around the world it's the largest prize ever in human history uh challenging teams to restore function in muscle immune and cognition um hopefully this is a age reversal uh therapeutic that teams will deliver we're we're just looking at three systems the you know if

if the teams going after this health span exerprise are doing something that at the root cause is hitting aging then they're likely to hit aging throughout the body we're only going to measure immune muscle and cognition because those are easy to measure and for me as I get older I want to have the immunity to fight infectious disease and cancer I want to have you know the muscular Vitality to you know hike and play with my great-grandchildren right and the cognition to be sharp for decades to come okay so one of the things that I

care deeply about is the timing of all of this yeah me too Budd with with the prize uh they have seven years right they have we announced this now in uh uh what month that we November December of 23 and it's a seven-year time frame um why seven years do you think that's I think I I set seven years uh originally because if an xprize you know the original x prise uh the first one I launched back in 1996 was a $10 million prize for space flight and again these X prizes are not for a

paper study they're not for an idea a team has to actually demonstrate the thing and then they get the money and they keep their IP the world gets the benefit and the first X prize took eight years uh it was launched in 1996 it was one in 2004 when Bert retan backed by Paul Allen built spaceship one that Richard Branson then bought the rights to and create Virgin Galactic and since then our prizes have typically taken anywhere from you know 2 to 8 years we had one prize uh $30 million Race to the Moon that

Google funded uh it was at a 10-year Horizon it did not get one it got shut down uh though two of the teams actually made it to the moon shortly thereafter but crashed on Landing interesting but they still you know got to lunar orbit and still made there which is a big big deal a Japanese team and an Israeli team um so by setting a deadline on a prize you force teams to actually do something versus sit back if it's there forever they'll take you know the race element does help them accelerate but a deadline

when you're facing a deadline you're going to you're going to take even more aggressive action uh so seven years for me felt the right length the second thing is one of you know our our largest donor in this prize is a group called called Evolution which is based it's a global nonprofit based out of Riad and out of the US and um Saudi Arabia has a a 2030 vision of uh really they have a lot of projects culminating in the year 2030 um and it just so happened that that is the culmination of this prize

as well so 2030 works from that perspective as well when I think about Ai and the rate of advancement so I come at things from a entertainment perspective and when I look at what's happened in the last 11 months quite frankly hasn't been a full year that I've been paying attention to um text to video the the leaps are pure Insanity it it is it's insane I was just looking at em Mod's uh latest uh stability AI which as fast as you're typing yeah you know there's a ape with an orange on its head hanging

from a you know bouncing on a trampoline and as as you add words the images are changing it's insane it's crazy it's we're we're a micro step away from uh from Hollywood vid you know movies being produced by describing them in in words yeah given the rate of change on in the last 11 months I'm going to guess in the next five years you will see uh commercials and things done entirely just text video like it I think it's the next two years five years I mean it certainly could be in the next three just

give given the amount of UI changes they'll have to do my gut instinct is that you're you're looking at at least three years but um so when I think about the advancements in longevity when I look at what humans have been able to do just in the last 10 years it's already incredible when you slap AI onto that then it gets nuts what do you think is going to be the contribution of quantum computers how real is that right now yeah so it's we're in the early days of quantum Computing to be clear right um

uh Quantum Computing uh is a complicated subject which I'm not going to do service to to be very clear right so classical Computing is uh basically Computing that uses ones and zeros on integrated circuit and a typical um uh you know typical binary language Quantum Computing uh uses cubits that are basically can be anything a zero one or anything between a zero and a one and what we find is it it really um represents the real world we're living in a Quantum World we're not living in a binary digital world we we model the world

uh using uh very Advanced binary systems we model um on a molecular level so for example uh uh Deep Mind which is part of alphabet now right right um which created a program called Alpha fold and Alpha fold I remember when I was in medical school uh or when I was maybe was I was in undergraduate MIT at the time the big Grand Challenge of the time is could you predict how a protein would fold so a protein is the basic building structure of the body it's a structural material it's an enzyme it's muscle tissue

it's it is a sequence of amino acids there are 23 essential amino acids here these amino acids when they're um assembled in a ribosome read from DNA to RNA to uh to a protein the sequence of amino acids they're like Lego blocks strung together um begin to fold into a very predictable 3D structure and that 3D structure is everything that 3D structure determines what that protein does how it functions how it interacts uh in a you know uh uh in a antibody um and it was always considered if you could go from an amino acid

sequence like I can tell you the sequence of the amino acids in this in this thousand amino acid sequence and if you could tell me how it would fold that would be the most incredibly powerful predictive engine on the planet and it was a super Computing problem and it was a couple years ago now that alphafold uh an algorithm out of Deep Mind cracked that problem um and uh it was able to go from an amino acid sequence to predicting a protein within a single Atomic diameter accuracy whoa and then it went on to predict

every protein and how it folds in the human body and then meta created their own version of that and was able to predict every protein in the biological ecosystem like POS it it's gone insanely fast right so now we can start to design proteins versus just find out what nature We Want A protein that is a certain shape that interacts with a certain like you know Key and Lock uh on the surface of a cell but that's all being done in binary that's all being done with AI algorithms operating on gpus at a atomic molecular

level we are quantum systems and the belief is that quantum computers will be able to enable us to model what's going on at a much higher level of fidelity much faster and so that we can start to understand the fundamental elements of how life itself Works in a much deeper way and start to model things you know um I don't know what what factor to use trillions of times faster than the classical computer because it takes a lot of energy and a lot of time to model things um but Quantum is going to be able

to um model chemistry and model biology uh at lightning speeds um so I believe we're going to see uh you know 2023 2024 we're seeing the inflection point of AI um uh we're what does that mean it mean means we're we're seeing AI growing at at unbelievable speeds what you said ear a few minutes ago that it's like it's it's awesome it's it's it's unbelievable how fast it's moving and and typically an inflection point is like it's a slow slow you know like AI so AI began the first conversations in AI were in 1956 at

Dartmouth University a group of a dozen people came together to talk about this idea of can we model intelligence in spent like a summer trying to do it right they they to try and get the theories and think through it right and then neural networks were proposed not very long after that but we didn't have the computational power until this past decade to actually start to put these algorithms into play and so while AI is what uh 56 you know 60 70 years old it's only now that we're seeing this massive inflection um it's the

knee of the curve it's the point where its speed is so fast right and now we're going to start to see AI programming Ai and it becomes self-referential and accelerates even faster so Quantum is still slow it meaning we're getting systems we're beginning to learn how to utilize it we have there's like two or three public Quantum compute companies um uh a friend I don't know if you know Jack hit uh Jack is on my Board of Trustees at x prise uh he spun out of Google a company called um sandbox AQ yes right uh

Eric Schmidt's the chairman uh and Jack is the CEO um and a stands for AI and Q stands for Quantum and it's a company that's really bringing together Ai and Quantum Computing and uh his belief is it's going to be most impactful in a few key areas and biology and chemistry is one of those key areas that to me is really fascinating the fact that we're going to be able to manipulate the building blocks of biology is pretty crazy where do do you think that our ability to um predict the folding of proteins goes how

do we use that what comes of it so now the question becomes what drug do you want in order to um uh handle a certain situation so we're going you know drug Discovery up until now has been you go to the Amazon forest and you forage for different leaves and and and stuff and you take it back to the lab and you see what you got right like uh rapamycin which is one of the longevity medications out there um I'm not going to detail about it but it was discovered in a soil sample from Easter

Island uh which is known as rapanui and that Rapa got its name from that so this random process of like just finding stuff and and trying to purify it and see if it has an effect on anything uh is going to go uh we're going to flip the model to saying okay what exactly do we want to interact with this receptor on this cell or block this chemical process inside of the mitochondria and we're going to design it and then we'll see does it interact with anything else we're going to start to create in silico

models right comput computer models of cells at in High Fidelity to understand what's going on and how you want to tweak it do we already have the ability to manufacture this stuff or absolutely 100% And it's and and there's a company called uh in silic medicine uh Alex zankov who is the CEO there is a friend um uh my Venture fund is an investor full disclosure um and uh they have Inc silico medicine is as the name says we're going to create medicines in simulation on computers and then manufacture it and then show that it

works and they have drugs in Phase 2 or phase three right now that we're designing a computer for a particular medical condition and it's working out how does drug Discovery work exactly using AI um you're going to understand uh a molecular process uh inside a cell that is causing a disease um and you're going to say this particular molecule is is a waste product that's accumulating that is causing this disease and can we create a uh A protein that might go bind that molecule in a highly uh accurate fashion that when it's bound uh blocks

the disease from occurring and allows your immune system to clear it right so we're going to start to um to Tinker with uh and the question then becomes is does that molecule you've designed to block a particular reaction or um or a waste product does it have a secondary negative effect that you don't want right so you're still going to go through clinical trials um to determine that there's no downside of that will that be more of a um we have to do it but in reality we've already run the simulation six ways a Sunday

inside there will be a point in the future so for example when SpaceX launched the Dragon capsule to the space station for the first time it worked it worked perfectly they're great Engineers but the reason it worked fantastic because they had a highly accurate computer model of the entire system and so they modeled it in high fidelity and it performed like the model said and so for example more recently we see Starship uh making serial uh advances as it's going towards orbit of course you know the crisis News Network and all the uh all the

media say oh Starship fails like [ __ ] it was an amazing incremental success you know the the first ship got to a certain point the second ship got further the Third third one will probably work perfectly because those ships are are highly instrumented and all the data is coming back and the data is being used to advance the models and saying aha this is actually was going on and so let's change this engine or this structural enery and we're going to start to do the same thing in biology which we're going to start to

gather enough data and instrument and understand what's going on where we can eventually get to a point where we have a a highly accurate model of the human cell um and not just a cell but maybe it's an organ maybe it's a thousand cells or a billion cells and we're going to know that this particular designed protein or medicine whatever might be works perfectly um and we'll get to a point where you don't need to uh go through a massive clinical trial how far is that away it's probably not the next 5 or 10 years

years but it is probably 20 to 30 years out uh but the cost of these right and then by the way this drug works for me not for you by the way do you know I I don't know the exact number but it's pathetic um when a drug is approved by the FDA and you take your you're prescribed that drug what percentage of time the drug actually works for you I've heard this before it's either 40 % of the time it works or 60% of the time it works it's like it's like under 20% no

way yeah it's it's and I I'll I want to check that number so I have it but it's um the when a drug goes through the drug Discovery process you know uh the first goal is Do no harm yes and by the way uh most of the drug Discovery process for the last century has been done in or safety trials have been done in men only yep there's a good reason for that though well the reason was that drug companies didn't want to deal with menes and menopause and so forth right it was inconvenient there's

just so much so many more complications but what happened was when drugs were taken off the market because they failed it was because they hadn't tested them in women because you I mean why assume that this drug that we developed for a particular condition that was safe in men is also safe in women anyway so first is Do no harm and then does it work and when the FDA approves a drug it worked in enough people that it was worth approving but it doesn't work at 100% in the Curr circumstances and it's a it's a

minority uh number and I'll have to check on that I have an obsession as an entrepreneur which is that uh as a human but this really manifests an achman where people need to stop trusting themselves so much yes people are so convinced they know that that they don't even recognize that they have a world view and if they do recognize that they have a world view they are utterly convinced that it is simply a reflection of what is objectively true and so they're like no the way that I see things is the right way and

I'm like oh my God like is that your view uh yeah exactly confirmation by that's my view and it's right Peter I we have all I mean one of the big things that AI is gonna give us as a gift is the ability to overcome all of these biases we have right all these cognitive biases recency bias negativity bias confirmation bias recas all of these things which our brain is really sucks at processing and so we have all these hacks right you trust someone who looks like you you give higher weight to the most recent

information you got you give higher weight to negative information over positive information and you know there's going to be a version where you go to Jarvis your your AI and you say you know I want to put cognitive bias alert on tell me if I'm being biased you know when we were building Singularity University um I was the founding executive director there um a few years in I was I'd written the book and I was off and Peter asked me to come to a board meeting say what should Su look like in five years or

10 years and I made a comment I said you know you should shut it down because you you build an organization and over time you spend more time trying to sustain the organization than trying to solve the problem that you set out to solve in the first place and the DARPA is the big organization they do every role even the CEO is 3 years long and then you have to rotate out you're not allowed to hold any role for more than three years and you're then you're measured worried about things eating stale stale and therefore

they keep things fresh and the your legacy is what did you do three threee patterns ago and was it good or not so now you're always focused on the long term you take out all the politics Etc and I think in today's world if I had to kind of boil it down I would say you build a company and after 3 to 5 years you just go we're going to shut it down after and force us to reinvent our or or re or reinvent the company right when the X prize got one and we had

spaceship one fly we held a meeting and said do we shut it down or do we reinvent ourselves into a platform yeah and we did and now we're getting ready to launch x-prize 3.0 which happened during Co I I said you know pulled the board together I said this is a perfect opportunity for us to reinvent ourselves and so we've re I need to brief you on it but we've reinvented x prise uh and I'm excited about that and so there is you need to be constantly disrupting yourself and it's tough because we're lazy in

some ways yeah you tell a story in the book about Elon walking in seeing him all long-faced and saying what's wrong walk me through that moment so um I was amazed so I I've known Elon for 23 20 23 years now and when uh when Falcon 1 which was their first vehicle failed on the first time the second time the third time and it succeeded on the fourth time um they miraculously and timing is everything got a contract for the Falcon 9 MH uh which was a a billion dollar contract and had they not won

that they may not be here today but they did and Elon made a incredible decision that took gut he shut down the rocket line that just began flying and there were very few successful operations he said focus on Falcon 9 falcon9 is our future and so that went on for some number of years and I was coming into SpaceX and Hawthorne to have lunch with him and he was kind of uh you know like you said long-faced and I'm like what's what's up and he goes uh I just figured out now Falcon 9 had been

up in operating and doing damn well it's the most successful launch vehicle on the planet by a huge margin right it's like it's like very few no countries compete with him he's like the number one space fairing power and uh and I said what's wrong he goes I just figured out the Falcon 9 is not going to get us where we need to go meaning to Mars right he's driven by this MTP this massive transformtive purpose making Humanity multiplanetary getting Humanity to Mars and um I need to start uh aresh and so that has become

Starship and then he goes on to make a a a comment that when Starship begins uh successfully operating he's going to shut down the Falcon 9 line W which again is like it's like I don't know what the analogy is but it's like you're the most successful at the top of the Heap and you're about to shut down that entire Revenue flow now whether or not he does or does not that was the statement he made but it's that mindset of focus of absolute Focus I'm going to do whatever dedication to the big The Big

Goal yeah okay so as somebody who knows this intimately from the inside the need to disrupt yourself or somebody else is going to do it the willingness to look at something and go okay we're going to have to start this all over how do you get your organization on board with that because the the normal human is going to rebel against that massively you don't so the the only model we found that works at all is to go to the edge of your organization and build a new capability aiming into an adjacent area or totally

separate area right so I remember one of the events of singular Larry Page came to me and said hey I was the head of innovation at Yahoo before building out Singularity and he came to me and said hey your unit at Yahoo is successful should I do an incubator model at Google and I said no you'll have this immune system response the more disruptive an idea we came up with in this incubator the less Yahoo could handle it and you're like my job description is is is not workable right and so the part of of

the result of lots of other inputs was Google X which is separate going into it they use Hardware to go into adjacent spaces uh Google car Google X contact lenses ET the master of this model of going to the edge and doing something different is actually Apple uh and yes they have a great design capability in a technology supply chain I argue that Apple's real Innovation is organizational because what they do unlike anybody else is they will form a small team that's really disruptive put the team at the edge of the company keep them secret

and stealth and they'll say to them go disrupt another industry whether it's watches or retail or payments or glasses or whatever now so they have a portfolio of teams looking at different Industries at the edge in secret And when they see something they go and do it and that becomes the new Gravity Center and this there's hundreds of examples of this Nestle for years tried to run espresso as line of business and it just failed SE finally they set up as a separate entity on its own boom every hotel room in the world has an

espresso machine and so that's the only model that we've ever seen there is one more which is the dictator it is the uh Larger than Life leader who says this is what we're doing if you don't agree with me leave yeah do we have a good example of that well Elon and and and Bezos uh as well Steve Jobs for sure it's like you know it's the founder leader it's very hard to do it in a uh an older Legacy company that's you know hired a CEO but it's people when you have a strong enough

MTP and the Visionary has a strong enough MTP and they come to work for you when they come to work for this Vision then they will have faith in you to make those right terms all right going back to mindset how does somebody cultivate that in themselves like if you want to become that guy or gal like what do you do what is it that an Elon has or a Steve Jobs has that other people can replicate so we close out the book with mindset and uh it's the area I'm spending most of my time

and I'll I'll phrase it like this for everybody listening if you look at the most extraordinary leaders on the planet uh Mahatma Gandhi Martin Luther King Elon Musk Steve Jobs Jeff Bezos I don't care who's on your list and you asked what made them successful was it the cash they had the friends they had the technology they had or was it their mindset right I think almost everybody would say it was their mindset your mindset is how you deal with challenges and opportunities it's your reaction it's how your neural net is wired so the question

is if your mindset if you agree that mindset is the most important thing a leader can have an entrepreneur can have what mind do you have first and foremost where did you get it and then ask yourself the question what mindset do you need for the world ahead and so I posit there's a few key mindsets um and these are what I teach in my my abundance Community um uh first off a curiosity mindset is fundamental I know you you believe this through and through aggressively can you go into a little detail on that like

when you say curious what do you mean so curious is a willingness to actually dig and ask and have conversations in the chat GPT world it's everything right so it's like how do I use chat GPT open it up and ask it how do you you know and then ask the next question the next question next question so when you have a kid who is asking you qu go to your 89 10y old self in that and just be openly curious and asking as many questions as you can and going down the rabbit Hall Steve

Steve WN calls it tinkering right we're we're in the organization can you just tinker and play what stops people from tinkering or being curious time constraint quarterly targets yeah doing stuff that they were told is important not having the time uh you know and I think falling into ruts so a curiosity mindset especially if you're an entrepreneur is like one of the most important things that you can incubate and have um the second mindset for me is an abundance mindset um and the abundance mindset is there is nothing truly scarce um we can talk about

this also as first principal thinking you know and this is one where uh Elon uh and I have had lots of conversations about abundance and that there is nothing truly scarce right that that your ability as entrepreneur to take something that was scarce and make it abundant is what entrepreneurs do great so you know the perfect example is uh energy right we used to kill whales on the ocean to get whale oil to light our nights then we ravaged Mountain sides for coal then we drilled kilometers under the ocean right then we fracked natural gas

but we live on a planet that's bathed in 8,000 times more energy from the Sun than we consume as a species and here's the key point the energy is there just not in a useful useful form yet so technology takes whatever was scarce and makes it usable and abundant so water is another example we live on a water planet for God's sakes right 2/3 water yeah but 97.5% is salt 2% is ice we fight over a half a percent but their Technologies transforming scarcity into abundance and first principal thinking um I wrote about this in

in Futures faster than you think uh when Elon decided to make Tesla um he basically looked at what was the spot price of lithium and nickel and could you get the cost of batteries down from first principal thinking and the answer is yes we can get it there and therefore the cars don't have to be that expensive and that led him to go forward um long story there uh so that's abundance thinking that instead of if you have a pie my favorite example if you have a pie and friends are coming over for dinner instead

of slicing the pie into thinner and thinner slices which is a scarcity mindset you bake more pies which is an abundance mindset so we're living in a world where you can bake more pies everything can be abundant and I mean my whole mission on EXT extending the healthy lifespan is about making time more abundant for people probably going to take pies out of that equation yeah if you're okay anyway so uh an exponential mindset a moonshot mindset uh a a purpose-driven mindset and a gratitude mindset other other mindsets I I speak to and we could

talk forever about those but there are mindsets that are important for us in this day and age yeah I want to go back to curiosity so when I think about what derails my my team I love them to death but one thing that I've encountered over and over is When people's ego gets tied up in being right and they're not just obsessed with finding the right answer it's because I think they have not yet accurately identified the way the world Works which is that if you are obsessed with being right you will be wrong most

of the time if you're obsessed with identifying the right answer then you can actually make progress and so I mean this is certainly the Trap that fell pre to in my early 20s that is is like a demarcation Line in the Sand my life before I realized that if I built my ego around being willing to stare nakedly at my inadequacies and figure out what the right answer is instead of trying to position myself to look smart um that I could actually move forward and that that switches everything because there's no there's not only no

emotional friction to admitting that you're wrong there's like a little twinge of excitement of like ooh I've gotten this far being wrong and now somebody's going to remove the scales from my eyes now I really can make this forward momentum but man I really like I for all the time that I spend on camera telling people how to think in this way I find it very hard to get somebody who isn't ready for that to like hear it make that switch and change if you guys have the magic words I'd love to hear them so

actually um this is music TOS in a sense because uh organizationally individuals are pretty good we have a lot of tool sets for transforming individual thinking Tony Robbins NLP psychedelics nowadays Etc to to change your own mindset but the group think that comes inside an organization is really hard to change and we what we found in EXO is the characteristics that add up to an exponential organization by default have it be embracing of this mindset so one of the ways we talk about what we've done in the same way that a Tony Robbins you go

in there and you completely change your subconscious state from A to B right from a scarcity to an abundance mindent whatever we're able to do that at the organization level we can take an organization that is old thinking stuck in particular markets Etc and you open it up using a combination of these characteristics the mindset the MTP Etc learn how you introduce the ideas but how do you get them to actually let me give you the hack I learned this from uh Astro Teller had him on stage at a360 a few times and he shared

with something that I love you're you're in the midst of developing a product everybody's absolutely sure of what's going on and how you're going to launch it how it's going to work and you hand out a piece of paper to everybody and you say listen guys it's 6 months from now and the product has just failed and you know why it's failed write it down you know exactly why it's failed write it down right now and you are incentivizing someone to actually flip their situation and look at the flaws and Elevate those and then you

go around the room and and review uh why people say it's going to fail and if you got two or three people saying the same thing you know it's maybe you got to look at that test that one first yeah the other one we've come across that's a great hack is is Amazon they created something called the institutional yes have you ever heard of this so they realize in any big company it's really easy to say no one of 20 people can say no it'll kill the idea if you're in a startup and you go

to one investor and they say yes you're after the racist so how do you deal with that impedance mismatch so they came up with a policy so that if you're inside Amazon you come to me with my an idea and I'm your boss I'm not allowed to say no my default answer must be yes if I want to say no I have to write a two-page thesis as to why it's a bad idea and posted publicly brilli right so they've created friction and embarrassment to saying no it's much easier for me to go H go

ahead you'll fail at the next level anyway da d d d da and out actually one of the the outcomes of this policy was Amazon web services nothing to do with their strategy not on the road map but nobody could figure out how to say no to it and now it's one of the most successful products of all time delivering I think 75% of their Global profits wow because nobody could figure how to say no to it right so we found a collection of little hacks and cultural Transformations and companies that allow you to basically

operate in this new modality being very curious purpose-driven uh constantly testing assumptions uh using small agile teams operating at the edges as autonomously as possible and then getting the business of the organization done wow I love that so much uh I've taken a lot from Bezos over the years like he's got some really amazing ideas I do have to chuckle a little bit that this business genius still got taken down by dickpics but uh just the human mind is absolutely hilarious we all frail but yeah none the look I don't even throw shade at the

guy get it live your live your best life but uh that's really brilliant and uh I will Implement that immediately yeah you we've had the luxury of watching hundreds of big companies deal in different ways right and it used to be that big companies were terrible at this and then about five years seven years ago they got started getting better so instead of a Google or Yahoo or somebody saying we're just going to compete with that little startup they would just buy them Zuckerberg saw that he was going to get disrupted by Instagram and and

and and WhatsApp ET bought them instead and in in general you should leave them alone over time the corporation can handle it gets as grubby finger as mess and then they tend to typically kill it um but we're starting to learn now if you look at say Google with llms they were actually too scared to release them and Amazon just went let's just go for it boom and open eye oh sorry uh Microsoft I was like wait Amazon sorry sorry microsof just what about Bard what do you guys think about Bard how's it do uh

very impressive I haven't touched it we've been playing with it it's very impressive it's early days yet but I'm finding fun uh doing stuff on open Ai and at bar at the same time and comparing them and there are few places where opening eye failed and Bard succeeded and vice versa so they're they're both uh they're both useful and um what I I'd like to mention if I could just because I want to go back to the the thesis on the on the book um you know again our mission is to give uh give people

who are running large scale companies who to survive the next 10 years a series of this is what you should do if you want to reorganize your your company and if you're a startup this is what you should do to be able to thrive in this decade because the world has changed I mean fundamentally how you start a company today and how you succeed today is very different than 30 years ago um it's very different than six months ago well yeah true C scares me for real like we've really just lived through the most uh

disruptive six months nothing has ever more instantaneously impacted my business model the way that I approach my employees ever than the release of yeah I mean no honestly that did not impact my business nearly it did like the day-to-day as you're not seeing people but the fundamental way that we ran our business yeah I do I mean we're in the world right now where every doctor in the world is freaked out if they see this and every lawyer in the world is freaked out every teacher in the world is fre love the fact that open

AI chat GPT passed the US medical licensing exam 2 months after it was launched right and the bar crazy it it pass the touring test that was the one I didn't see coming the signing of the hey let's slow down letter and so I had um yashua Benjo on the show was considered the Godfather of AI and I said hey your name was on that what made you sign it and he said in know in certain terms I did not expect it to pass the touring test as fast as it did that set off every

alarm Bell that I have and like pump the brakes this is the thing that we find most interesting because we've known imod and all these guys for a while they are blown away by the success of these models right so that's really fascinating that the that the folks themselves are just blown away and still early days ladies and gentlemen it's still early days you know we're going to see so much more coming and the recursive nature of self-improving capabilities you know I showed this um I showed this work done where a group of Physicians were

shown these case studies to diagnose a patient and it was like uh they took 55 minutes and got 60% right and the AI took like 12 minutes and got 85% right and the Physicians are going to change next year but the AI will get much better and'll be you know seconds and 100% right bro yeah yeah this is where this gets really interesting so I know you have another company Fountain life uh you guys are using AI are you open to talking about yeah sure so longevity I couldn't be more obsessed with the idea and

so as you were talking about it um my first question is how are you guys going to start getting the patterns down because to me this is the big thing you talk to somebody like Peter AA and he's like look it is just next to impossible to do really good studies on diet and nutrition what works what doesn't work is just too many confounding variables and I was like AI is going to answer that like it it can pull a pattern anything that can be reduced to a pattern they can figure it out regardless of

like amount of variables if there is a pattern to be had it will sus it out and given that we have some people that live to0 and some that don't there is a pattern y yeah and I'll put it this way you there some a lot of interesting things not only are there some people who live to 20 and some people who make it to just 65 there are large species on this planet like the boohead whale that lives to 200 years or the Greenland shark that lives to 500 years and my question is if

they can live that long why can't we and I said it's either a hardware problem software a problem all right and we're going to understand that this decade is the decade we're going to understand that it's going to be Ai and Quantum technologies that give us that Insight so Fountain life it's just Fountain life.com um we have these 10,000 square foot facilities uh we have four of them right now we have a waiting list of like 50 that we'll build out globally and you come and we digitize you it's a full body 150 gigabyte upload

of you uh full body MRI Brain Brain vasculature Brain function a coronary CT all of this with AI overlay 80 80 blood biomarkers genomics met metabolomics you know your your gut and then we do this year on year this is not a oneandone right so in the the first time you do it we're going to see is there anything going on that you should worry about most of us are optimists about our health and we don't actually know what's going on inside our body yeah [ __ ] and by the way the body is really

amazing at hiding disease yeah I'm going to put myself it's like it's like you are you think you're fine but you know 70% of all heart attacks have no precedent dude that that one freaks me out that the what the first symptom of uh heart disease in most men is death yeah crazy right and 70% of cancers that kill you are not screened for so it's this [ __ ] that drives me nuts and so it's like an idiot not to be looking inside your body and we used to not look cuz well if I

find out can I do anything the answer is yes you can so you want to know and so we screen people first and then every year upload you every year and it's looking for the patterns and what medicines and we have a large Corpus of data and the AI ability to analyze that to say with your genome with your microbiome with these meds with this um there's going to be huge uh learnings out of this right and so I'm trying to build uh Fountain life into an exponential organization so I'm building around this book that

we've built and every company uh I'm involved with is like we need to use these 10 attributes in the book otherwise we're not going to be able to have the impact globally that we want M what are you going to tell the AI to look for um so right now it's it's you don't have to tell it to look for anything you have have to ask it to find any kind of an any kind of anomalous patterns it's it's you're looking for Trans uh it's it's data over time so you're looking for for changes tell

me what's changed tell me what's changing and tell me um so I'll give you one of the examples we're building this is a fun part about Fountain life we're building a brand new health insurance company on top of it so uh if you get Fountain life insurance which is available today your employees insurance is a perverse business uh fire insurance pays you after your house burns down life insurance pays your next toin after they're dead health insurance pays you after you're sick what we've done instead is when you sign up your employees go through a

set of pre-testing for us to discover any kind of disease and prevent it from a big payout later down the stream right so it's keeping your employees healthy and what we want to wa wait wait how does that model work though so is the employee paying roughly what they would pay they're paying exactly the same or less the numbers are the same and the the insurance company is actually saying we're going to do preventative we're doing preventative testing yes preventative testing and so here's what we're doing one of interesting things is there's a number of

expensive tests we can do and a number of cheap tests we can do and one of the things we're doing with AI is correlating which of these lower-end tests correlate highly to the expensive tests so you'll do the lower-end cost test to find a signal in the noise and then you'll verify with the expensive test did you see recently uh uh both Deep Mind and open AI released weather prediction models that were accurate 11 days out whoa so this is fascinating and I saw this morning a a prediction model on bitcoin so tell me more

Peter yeah well it was trending up to the end of the year not a huge amount but it was trending up I'm a Bitcoin believer but anyway um so anyway the point being interesting right can AI make accurate predictions in seemingly uh massively complex systems uh like weather I mean I can't think of anything more complex than weather or um the financial markets I mean now it becomes fascinating if you're actually able to predict and then the question becomes well if you can predict that and I know is that change my behavior when that in

weather no in financial markets yes yeah um I mean this goes back to uh you know I I'll ask you the question uh my thesis is we're living in a simulation and it's an nth generation simulation um we're living within the simulation within the simulation within the simulation because I think we're going to have the technology to be able to do that and we will because we can um and if that's in fact the case I would do nothing different than I'm doing right now um we're in a game how do you feel about that

it's interesting so the I'm actually wearing the shirt right now so I'm wearing a shirt for the video game that I'm building called project kaisen which takes that as its hypothesis which is everything you've ever known is a simulation you have no body anywhere there is no biological U uh this is a simulation and then then once you know it's a simulation then you can begin to manipulate it effectively and that is me again as a Sci-Fi writer trying to explore what it will mean to understand the rules by which all of this apparent complexity

is born out of um so I for a long time and look honestly it's only been in the last like month or two that I've started thinking maybe this really is a simulation uh just because the more I do thought exercises probing at the edges of what would it mean for this to be built on a set of rules and why would it be built on a set of rules and what built it on a set of rules you just start asking things back recursively and look I I map to what I understand and since

I understand simulations and video games I map it to that and so there could just be a fundamental flaw in my thinking and I'm perfectly happy with that but um it it does get harder and harder for me to exempt from the likelihood that this actually is a simulation so I believe it inherently and I can't prove it and again even though I believe it it doesn't change anything I remember I had a I was at years ago uh I was at a birthday party that Elon had Larry paig and Sergey Bren and Elon and

I are having a conversation before the falling out um having a conversation about whether we're living in a simulation and I I think I think I don't know if it was Larry or Elon said yeah the only way we're going to find out is if you try and tamper with it and the system resets you uh I mean it's fascinating I I wonder if this has been a a subject conversation um in ancient philosophical times as well have you ever seen any references to that Plato's Cave yeah yeah very much the same idea again mapping

to what he knew he knew campfires and shadows two dimensions and three yes exactly so that becomes the way that you think about it but I I think as people really begin to investigate the human mind it is inevitable that you start going hold on a second you're seeing the world differently than me and so then you go wait a second are either of us seeing the world the way that it actually is and then once you understand that we're not uh that we necessarily couldn't be that my umelt is different than a bat's umelt

and therefore we are going to perceive everything very differently and then you start going wait a second we're perceiving the world instead of just encountering it as it actually is so the technology that's going to come to make a dent in that is going to be BCI brain computer interface right so if I'm able to connect my mind to your mind I think there's going to be an interesting uh set of coral you know can I so there are dozens of companies right now working on so you got 100 billion neurons in your brain 100

trillion synaptic connections and the neocortex the top layer is your sensorium and your uh your hongus of action and all uh your visual cortex auditory cortex and such and one can connect the digital signals in your brain or the electrial signals in your brain to electrodes and connect them to computer and those things are happening right now you know elon's got his neural link there's a company actually here called paradromics um which is doing that as well um there's a lot of amazing companies um and so we're going to start to be able to understand

visually one of my favorite uh recent AI blow your mind examples was a group took subjects and put them inside of a functional MRI machine which is looking at blood flow going through different parts of the tissue in your brain and the more the blood flow the more the neurons are active because they're using more glucose and oxygen and so forth and they took the output of the MRI and they fed it into stable diffusion and they gave the subjects in the functional MRI machine an image to look at look at an image of an

airplane look at it and think about that and then they took the signals out of the fmri and were able to see the person was looking at an airplane that's crazy right and they did so it could interpret the brain signals to say this is what you're looking at yes yo awesome that's mind reading mind reading yes it is mind reading and so we're heading in that direction and so one of the things I think about is um you and I both are not a single living organism all right you have to have to think

about that we're a collection of 40 trillion human cells 30 trillion if you're smaller 50 trillion if you're bigger um and those human cells are each individual living organisms working together uh collaborative competing for res competing but the competing or yes and supporting each other in that in the you know distribution of resources you also have more than those 40 trillion uh life forms in the form of bacteria and virus and fungi as an ecosystem in your body but you're not you know we think of ourselves as Tom or Peter but we're far more um

I think we're heading towards a point where if I can connect my brain to the cloud and you can connect your brain to the cloud and all of a sudden I've got Godlike Powers with a small G I'm omnicient omnipotent I'm not be present I can know anything I can think and Google I can look through your eyes you know or Through The Eyes of someone watching a sunrise in Tokyo um it is we're now a meta intelligence we're at a new level of of of empathy and connection between humans you know I love Star

Trek as you as you all know are you treky or or Star Wars Star Wars I'm so sorry for that you're wrong you picked the wrong picked the wrong part but it's okay um you know the only thing and I you know the only thing that rbur got wrong was the Borg um you know the Borg or the you know the evil um uh uh you know networked minds but I think I think we're going to head towards a level of Consciousness on the planet as we start to connect Millions tens of millions hundreds of

millions of individuals um I think we become conscious at yet another level I call that a meta intelligence and I think that's coming as well uh enabled by AI enabled by this brain computer interface you can imagine if I gave you the ability to connect your brain to the cloud and you plugged in for that moment and all of a sudden you could understand what you want you knew anything you wanted you were connected to this new envol of you know of infinite knowledge and then I unplugged you how would you feel I think you'd

feel so lonely and disconnected so I think once you plug in you know this is more The Matrix than than not so we can get to one of your favorite uh genres but I think I think that's coming uh enabled by uh by AI you know um let me go one other slight subject and then we can you can take it back where you want uh we just had visioneering at x prise x prise um we hold an ual event called visioneering where we brainstorm ideas and um that would become great ex prises uh and

this past visioneering we had a couple of good AI ex prises one is AI for truth um when someone makes a statement can you have an AI algorithm that's able very rapidly to say factual truth here's the roots of that this is opinion or this is information all right I think that'd be very useful in our in our coming world the other one which which was um AI mediated communication between any two species wow right can I talk to Wells or dolphins in a in a consistent accurate two-way fashion that would be nuts that would

be amazing yeah I'd love that for my dog that would be a trip I know be a trip take me out food P me but you know on a consistent basis uh I mean you can imagine like uh if you could talk to Welles and dolphins they would help you explore the oceans or talk to birds there's a kid that's missing in the forest here help me find them dude so that's very interesting and I know the way your brain works and you take a very beautiful optimistic look at that um it would be utterly

fascinating so killer whales are vicious vicious and they will go eat a great white liver just because they can and they will toy with dolphins there are dolphins that will kill other dolphins and they'll mess with them uh dolphins that try to have sex with humans I mean just on and on like it's crazy and I have a feeling that were we to actually be able to communicate with animals it may be a little more distressing than we want to believe I read a story a long time ago and I did find this very interesting

this speaks to your inter interpretation of the Borg as being a misread and it was these creatures that had these taals that had like these almost fiber optic tendrils and when they would connect them sounds like Avatar yes I would be shocked if he hadn't read the story because it is very similar to that but this was years ago I read this probably 30 years ago 35 years ago and uh they would connect their tales and they would instantly know the entire history emotional Mila of the person they were connecting and what was interesting was

how once you could no longer lie or hide anything from anybody there was there was a relaxed sort of acceptance this who I am like it or not this is who I am you got your own [ __ ] I've got mine I mean honestly and when I think about it uh on a on a relationship side and this is something that you know talk to Lisa more about the ability to be absolutely brutally honest about your feelings about your desires about everything you've ever done I mean how many people actually have people in their

lives that know everything about you where there's zero to hide I mean it's like like in a relationship and you look at a woman and go wow she's gorgeous and you're willing to say that and and or you know something that you were ashamed of having done but everything is fully disclosed I think that level of intimacy would be amazing amazing it would be you you oh man the the Symmetry that would have to be there though because if there's even slight imbalance of sure and and therefore a lot of relationships would not work but

when they do click um and there's full disclosure and your deepest likes deepest fears are fully known to both sides it is a a level of complete honesty and I mean someone who knows you as well as you know yourself I mean that I mean we're going in a very different conversational subject but um I I think that is a that was something I would desperately love and I have a few friends in my life where it's like they know almost everything possible and it's not that I wouldn't disclose things to them it's just we've

never had those conversations and those are people is to me right for whatever dysfunction I have only my wife knows me like that mhm I I don't know why I uh I don't well just share them with share it with me now right now yeah there you go live live on camera um and then you have a billion people know about it the funny thing is I don't actively hold things back like I'm a pretty open book but it is like there's something about sharing your life with somebody where they see all the like what

do you like when you're sick what do you like when something goes really well when something goes poorly and there's there's just too much intimacy for there to be any posturing whatsoever because they just see you too often um yeah it's interesting so these are the things that AI are going to enable you know uh imagine with this level of BCI where you can't lie I mean interesting right because you could probably make up uh simulated truths that you honestly believe and people do do do that anyway going back uh where do you want to

take this back to Let's rewind the tape here well so the thing that I want to know so this is all very interesting to me in terms of where this goes and how far out it gets and it really does become quite fascinating but right now there are tremendous opportunities for people that really understand what's going on uh obviously bold Capital this is a big part of where you place your bets is do I understand a little bit more than other people where this is all going so what what is the right now today Bridge

what are the opportunities that somebody listening to this should understand whether it's AI Quantum Computing longevity where are the big opportunities so I I believe without question the two biggest business markets on the planet are Ai and Longevity right uh if you think about from a national standpoint a national leader of a country uh should care about the health and the uh the integral of intelligence over their country if you could increase the intelligence of your nation by 20% right or the health of your nation by 20% massive right or in a company increase the

intelligence of your of your uh your Workforce or the health of your Workforce these are huge levers to move you know I'm often um keynoting inside of companies or YPO event or other you know uh about those two subjects I mean that's my typical like that's all that matters right now ai and Longevity and and I'll ask people in know in you know a wealthy group um uh individuals I honestly how much of your Capital would you give up for an extra 20 healthy years um and if they're honest about it it's well over 50%

of of their of you're going to spend it anyway at the end of your life yeah right trying to like deal with when you give 100% I think people would but then they say well I'm going to leave it to my kids or I'm going to leave it to my philanthropy or whatever the case might be hold on hold on hold on I want to paint a scenario you you are before I I am I am with you I'm listen I don't want to leave on their behalf I want to understand this mindset because this

is shocking to me uh you before a credible Source let's call this credible Source God just to make it easy and God is like hey bro button on the left uh you get 20 extra years but you're going to give me every dime all of your assets everything button on the right you die tomorrow but you get to give your family all your assets yeah you're telling me that there are people that hit the button 100% Who because uh people want to leave a legacy why the hell do you give a billion dollars to Harvard

um do they really need another billion dollars you know you want a legacy there people want to know that they're going to live that their legacy is going to live after them whether it's in the form of their kids or the form of their name and so yeah um there's a balancing act maybe it's 20% that they would hold back uh those are not the buttons before you there is no 20% there's all or nothing but you wow okay uh that's crazy to me and but going back to your question I think longevity is one

of the largest business opportunities that's going to materialize over the de how you take advantage of it what what are you doing to be ahead of the curve um uh well building companies there in that so Fountain life is s my my biggest company I'm building for a global footprint for enabling everyone to have access to the best Therapeutics and the best Diagnostics right the Diagnostics are is there anything going on inside your body right now you need to know about if there is you want to know because you can take action we find 2%

of the people who go through Fountain life have a cancer they don't know about 2 and a half% of an aneurism they don't know about 14.4% have either uh metabolic disease NE neurod degenerative disease cardiovascular disease something you need to take action on right away and so the thesis there is your body no longer needs to be a black box yes the the thesis is your body is amazingly good at hiding disease incredibly good and you're better off confronting you're better off knowing as early as you can because you can do something about all of

these things and why now what what is now because because the tech is there to image in High Fidelity without the false negatives and the tech is there to understand what the data means right so friend of mine super successful individual um who I'm doing business with in in Fountain life and and uh and he wanted to go through The Experience goes through the experience and we discover two aneurysms in his brain wow serious aneurysms he's in surgery a week later they're they're clipped and blocked and he's fine in that threat but um had he

not it was a ticking Time Bomb for him right we all know people who have oh my God they died in their sleep um or they go to the hospital and the doctor says I'm sorry to tell you this but you got stage three or stage 4 whatever is it didn't happen that morning it's been going on for some time you just don't know how so the stats are the following 70% of people who have a heart attack had no previous symptoms right uh you don't detect cancer until it's stage three or four from a

pain or something going on it is a slow your body is amazingly good at hiding it uh you don't de develop a uh parkinsonian Tremor until 70% of the substanti [ __ ] uh uh neurons are gone and so you need to look and people say I don't want to know I say [ __ ] of course you want to know as early as you can fully know because there's now things you can do about things you can do about it for sure medicine has progressed incredibly well and it's moving and if you're wealthy you

want to know because I want to fund the research to solve that thing right so um in Fountain the two questions is is something going on you know about today and if there isn't fantastic I go every year for my upload and then I'm tested throughout the year on stuff that I'm incrementally improving the second thing is what are you likely to develop and how do we push that off how do we solve that how do we reduce your chance of heart neurovascular you whatever it might be uh so that's what I'm building I've built

a couple of companies one in stem cells with Bob huri who's a CEO there called cellularity and the one called vaccin that's developed vaccines so vaccines are amazing things your your brain is the most complicated machine in the universe that we know of your immune system is the next your immune system is protecting you against infectious disease and against cancers right we're all developing cancers all the time and your immune system your natural killer cells find those cancer cells right cuz cells replicate a certain number it's called the ha flick limit you know 50 60

replications and then they should have the decency to die if they don't they can become scile cells putting out inflammatory factors or they can become cancer cells Immortal cells and they grow and your natural killer cells detect those cancer cells and zap them but as you grow older you have something called imuno exhaustion your immune system starts to slow down and you don't detect it and they can start to grow and so so if you can find cancers on MRI there are things called the gr test which take a liquid biopsy blood biopsy and looking

for cancer DNA in your bloodstream and so you can you can do something about these now um so uh vaccines I was that's where I was I was talking about vaccines so vaccines we know about it from mRNA vaccines for uh from for covid and such but we can now develop vaccines to activate your immune system to fight cancer like like go attack that you can vaccinate against cancer where there are cancer vaccines now being developed the first one that was approved by the FDA was for melanoma which is one of the most deadliest cancers

uh one of my companies vaccin has a vaccine in phase two for Parkinson's uh uh going to phase three for Alzheimer's we have a uh a phase one asset in hypercholesteremia so going a vaccine which goes you vaccinate yourself um it activates your immune system to go and go after a particular enzyme in the liver called pcsk9 which creates the bad cholesterol LDL low density lip of proteins um and That vaccine which you'd vaccinate yourself twice a year for two injections a year injections might be 20 bucks 50 bucks basically drops your cholesterol level down

so I have hypercholesteremia in my family um my dad had very high cholesterol whole slew of medical stuff so I'm very sensitive to it um I don't want to do statins I take a very small amount of Statin for an anti-inflammatory effect that's a different story but I take something uh called a um uh I take something called ratha which is a uh uh a uh antibody that's manufactured in a vat um and I get a few MLS of this and I have to inject it every two weeks that antibody goes to that pcsk9 enzyme

in my liver and blocks it from producing LDL now it cost me $10,000 a year and I have to do it every 2 weeks but it drops my LDL level down into a beautiful green zone h I'm using these antibodies produced in a manufacturing plant and Shi to me what we built in vacinity was a vaccine that I inject and it causes my own immune system to manufacture that same antibody for free to block that PCS can9 enzyme that make sense yes and you're doing that now yes I'm not well we're developing the back right

now the first results were amazing we're you know going from phase one into phase two uh long story short the ability um there are these monoclonal antibodies uh which are like the top selling drugs and uh it's using these antibodies which are proteins to go and block a certain process we talked about that a little bit earlier but they're expensive but the idea now is instead of Manu facturing these monoclonal antibodies in a in a vat in a Pharma manufacturing plant can you just teach your own immune system to produce that same antibody and that's

the future of uh of vaccines your vaccine um the vaccine is playing your immune system like an app okay let me see if I can boil that down to a thesis so for somebody that is trying to figure out where the opportunities are right now because we're living in this hyper disruptive time yeah I want people to be aware of the ways in which things are being disrupted so that they can go in and take advantage there's so okay so I'm going we're going back to the investment side here so listen uh we're in the

middle of a biotech winter right now just to be clear there was um if you look at all the biotech companies out there they're significantly depressed so if you're playing the public markets and you find companies that have good cash position and to have uh strong potential drug candidates it's a great time to buy because the stocks are all like 10 or 100 fold depressed so I just put that out there one second um I think Health uh I think the medical system the Health Care system is so broken it's pathetic I think we're going

to I think it's going to crumble on under its own weight and so we're going to reinvent how we deliver healthc care I think at home you're going to all be we're all going to be monitored so I'm wearing a continuous glucose monitor right now I've got my aura ring I've got my Apple watch there's going to be a whole slew of wearables all of that wearable data is going to monitor me 247 so one of the things we we do at Fountain as well is we bring in all your wearable data so in between

your annual uploads which are deep dives into you we're monitoring what's going on so we're g to see are you making recommendations based on what you see absolutely absolutely so for supporting your sleep for supporting your diet so my my continuous glucose monitor right and there's companies like levels or there's free Libre there's others that measure how your body reacts to eating those peanuts or that Snickers bar and how quickly your blood sugar elevates and how quickly it goes back down and based upon that you know uh going into pre-diabetic or becoming a diabetic your

glucose is is a poison in the body I don't know people realize that our bodies were never designed to eat as much sugar as we do and glucose sticks to proteins and then your immune system sees that glycosilated protein as a foreign and attacks it and causes inflammation so a lot of cardiovascular disease and neuroinflammatory disease is a result of people's diet but you don't talk about that no one talks about that okay so um I was going somewhere slightly different when I said thesis so I don't necessarily mean investing but I mean if I

can create an overarching uh thesis on what it is that links all this stuff together uh so your interpretation of where we are in the world right now as I understand it is uh your body no longer needs to be a black box yes we now have the Imaging capacity to see what's going on we have the ability to do something about it there are Therapeutics that are advancing now very rapidly yes where you can Leverage The Body Z own systems in in a um intentionally triggered fashion whether that's through vaccines whether that's through some

other mechanism um but we're getting we have a deep enough understanding of the body's mechanisms that were able to trigger those and get them to go in and clean up whether it's LDL or something else and people need to realize that your health is something you can do something about and if I I think about having a longevity mindset and what does a longevity mindset mean it means I believe and I do believe this that this next decade we're going to see incredible progress and 10 years from now we're going to have the ability to

live an extra 20 healthy years what do you think that progress is going to be in the ability to manipulate the immune system so so I think it's uh a lot of what we're doing on this exerprise we just announced right so we get um $101 million from Evolution uh from Chip uh chip Wilson who is uh the founder Lulu Lemon who put up you know 26 million plus another $10 million purse for his disease called fshd it's a muscular distrophy and we're asking teams to reverse the functional loss in muscle immune and cognition right

so you're moving well you've got great immunity and you're thinking clearly and so over the next seven years we're going to have incredible progress in those areas that's one of the the I don't to call it uh it's one of the thrusts that I'm focused on moving the needle forward and so if you believe that we're going to have this uh this progress your longevity mindset needs to be I'm going to do whatever it takes to live long enough to intercept these other breakthroughs so I I arrive at this point in reasonably good health so

for me that's the thesis that we're going to have these breakthroughs from biotech from from cellular medicines from Gene therapies from crisper Technologies from all of these things from Ai and if I'm able to keep myself in good enough health I'm going to intercept these and it's going to buy me the next 20 years and during that time they're going to be additional breakthroughs will buy me the next 20 years if you want that if you love life and you want to see what's coming in the next you know Century um there's good reason for

you to take care of yourself what does that look like taking care of yourself right now there are things that people need to be doing um and I I just you know I wrote a book that just came out called uh longevity your practical Playbook um I've you know I just wrote a book last year with Tony Robbins called life force we we did a conversation about that great book and it's 700 pages and it's amazing and very few people get through a 700 page book so I wanted to write a very practical book that

looks at and says this is what I'm doing and this is what I think um is science backs and I put it into uh a few very simple chapters number one what to do about diet because there are fundamental things we can come back to that sleep um exercise like the most important thing right you think exercise is more important than diet and I'll come back come back to that so they're all important you know diet sleep exercise mindset super important not dying from something stupid which I call doing your upload at Fountain like knowing

what's going on inside your body and then meds and supplements so the book looks at that I actually uh I made a reduction that was the word a reduction of that into what I call my uh my practical my you know Peter's longevity practices which I have a copy of over there which is free for people it's a 25 30 page like this is what I'm doing and why at DM andis.com DM andis.com longevity um and you can get my book there you can get this uh this PDF download um and it's it's very definitive

so listen there's no one diet for everybody I've been a vegan I I've been uh you know keto diet I'm mostly Mediterranean but the things I've discovered is number one sugar is a poison um minimizing your sugar and and why whole plants are critically important even the order in which you eat your food matters like if you're given like you go out to for dinner at a restaurant when they bring you the bread and the wine ask him to bring it back during the dinner course um if you're going to eat the bread at least

dip it in olive oil first glucose talking about not spiking your glucose immediately right which is the worst you can do it really drives you to so why bring it back is it eating proteins first so what you want to do is on your plate eat your vegetables first if it's if it's asparagus if it's broccoli if it's a salad the fiber slows down your digestion eat your protein next and then eat your carbs last um it slows down your sugar spike it actually allows you to absorb the best nutrients out of your PL of

food first so even making that small you'll lose weight you'll get better nutrition and you'll actually feel full having eating the best stuff first right it's just a really small trick that I'm just like you know once I learn that it's like okay I need to tell everybody about it's a small the order in which you eat your food matters right so there's a whole bunch about diet there um exercise is probably the single most important thing I have stepped up my exercise from like 2 or 3 days a week to 5 days a week

your physique has changed dramatically yeah I've added muscle it's my goal to add muscle muscle is one of the most important uh previty parts of your life are you doing trt uh I am I do take a certain amount of testosterone and it's simply I don't actually feel different I am taking a small amount of testosterone uh simply to support muscle grow base it on blood levels I do uh I I'm staying in like 800 uh range and sometimes up to a thousand but does it increase your libido it doesn't it doesn't it it doesn't

touch my libido I mean my libido is fine but I don't if I'm off it or on it it doesn't make a difference and you know people who've got you know I don't think I I exhibit grouchy old man syndrome so I'm I'm you know I'm like the most positive person I know no doubt um but I'm using it specifically for supporting muscle mass but then I'm doing 150 grams of protein a day I'm having creatin I'm taking amino acid supplementation I'm focused on adding muscle mass um as you grow older adding muscle becomes harder

and harder yeah and one of the unfortunate mechanisms that a lot of people die as they go into their 70s and 80s I'm 62 right now is uh you fall because of muscle weakness you break a pelvis or a hip you end up in the hospital it's painful to breathe you get a pneumonia and you're down for the count right it's happened to my dad happens a lot of people and the survival rate post to hip or pelvis fracture if you're over 70 is like really low so you don't want to do that you want

to maintain muscle mass it also maintains your stem cell population and your blood um in your in your muscle so um there's an interesting stat I memorized this one cuz it was important if you're over 60 and you can exercise doesn't have to be super intense but some resistance exercises can be with with or without weights twice a week uh it reduces your all cause mortality by 50% and reduces your chance of cancer by threefold waa yeah your body um the signals you give your body from exercise and moving is that I'm still useful I

still want to be here right the other thing in the mental game is don't retire you know Google the correlation between retirement and death it's like five years W it's really so you know when you retire and you don't feel purpose in your life you know um I'm going to read something from this is uh the longevity practices book and there's a a section on mindset here and I just think it's really so important so um I'm going to read this to you it says in a study of 69,7 44 Women and 1429 men this

is unusual because it's more women than men published in the prestigious Journal proceedings of the National Academy of Science you know super high-end peer-reviewed publication it was found that optimistic people lived as much as 15% longer than pessimists 15 15 wow pretty amazing your mindset matters and you know making use of your body and being out there and having purpose and all of these things are subtle Clues right we all know people that very close to their husband or wife and their spouse dies and then they die weeks later right here's another uh here's another

story here one of my favorite stories illustrating uh illustrating the power of Mind Over uh a lifespan comes from the anals the anals of American history as it turns out in an extraordinary demonstration of the will to live two of America's founding fathers Thomas Jefferson and John Adams both willed themselves to live long enough to see the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence even though in the early 1800s the average lifespan was only 44 years old Jefferson who was then 83 and Adams who was 90 made it made it to July 4th 1826 both

dying on that exact date the th anniversary of the nation's founding wow amazing I didn't know that yeah I love that story um having purpose in life being optimistic making use of your body all of these things are fundamental and when I think about a longevity mindset it is really you know I live with this every day I care about this every day I am I think this is the most exciting time ever in human history to be alive with what's going on and opening up the space Frontier with a because of the rate of

change because of the rate of change because of the rate of potential it's like an infinite you know I mean if you were born a 100 years ago and every year right at my abundance 360 Summit I look back 100 years and I look at like what was life like 100 years ago and what was the rate of innovation 100 years ago and the numbers and the examples are craz slow and I don't remember 18 1923 I remember 1922 there were seven breakthroughs in that year I not like seven in a week or seven in

a month it was seven in the entire year and I searched everywhere patent filings headlines writeups and so it was like it was like the uh uh uh water ski was invented uh the me a mechanical uh uh mechanical garage door opener uh a retractable roof for the Ford Model T um uh vomite was on the list I mean I was searching for stuff I was searching for Stuff one of the seven is VE blender a blender um for making malts and it was like the pace of change was so slow and we're living in

a world today where there's like massive breakthroughs you know every hour of the day it's a rate of change though that I think now is giving people anxiety how do you how do you help people navigate that um because I think that the ability I define entrepreneurs as people who find problems and solve problems and I think entrepreneurs are more empowered than ever before to solve problems and that uh that they are entrepreneurs are in our world creating a better and more capable world I mean I think we take for granted the fact that you

know on our phone we've got what we would have spent tens of millions of dollars if it was even possible 20 years ago for two-way free video conferencing all right every every game every book every piece of music accessible for free and we forget with the incredible world we live in uh I think people who are more in uh teaching meditation and spirituality going to help people deal with the with the uh uh anxiety but I want folks to realize the magical Universe they're they're living in you know I think about creating a world in

which every mom knows her kids has access to the best health care education all the food water energy right this is the world of abundance I I I you know when I first wrote abundance with Steven Cotler 12 years ago IAL about creating a world not of luxury but a world of possibility right and I still believe that and there's no velocity switch there's no onoff switch to this technology it's happening uh so what do you dream about what do you wish you had what do you want to do I mean you can put it

all away and go live in the forest um people and people will but most choose not to I am very much much uh um what do they call that where materialist like it's all cause and effect the odds that our sense of um that I control my life is probably an illusion and yeah that just all makes sense to me like if you had a computer that could track every atom since the beginning of time that you'd be able to predict where we're going to be in 10 years and you'd be able to replay the

universe all the way back to the big bang that just makes sense to me and that doesn't diminish my sense of awe in this like I look at and by the way I I I asked the question if you knew with certainty that you were living in a simulation would it change anything and the no a no B so you were talking about project Kaizen before we started rolling that's its premise is that this is a simulation and it doesn't matter it's still all the same I think it's great you know so if I could

finish that story with this weird coincidence I got to a point about 5 seven years ago where I was having not this insane kind of coincidence used to happen about once a year in my life started happening quarterly and then it started happening every two weeks and I can barely process one in the next ridiculous coincidence on me and I was freaking out because I was like really messing with things so I have a a cousin who's done 40 Years of DS meditation in the woods Etc so I said to her she's my resident understanding

the universe person so I said help me with this she's like well listens to me for a bit she goes well duh you've told the universe you're ready for anything they'll give you everything I'm like wait what she go you have to come to an agreement with the energies in the universe to only give it to you when you're ready for it I'm like where's the manual for that so she coached me on this and and you can do this you can do it's you know if you if you did it at the fully reductional

level it's creative visualization right you visualize what you want and Things Can Happen Etc um and there's a we all do that you do that that's what the MTP is all about right you you you program yourself in your surroundings your subconscious to out for the outcomes you want and then those things happen but there's a but but those outcomes occur to a large degree because I'm outwardly communicating my massive transformative purpose I'm telling the world those people who gravitate to it are coming to me and they're bringing things to me that are in line

with that MTP it's not like I'm just meditating on on in silence and the world is changing but what you're actually doing is you're programming reality or I'm programming how I deal with reality both right reality is happening and again a mindset is how I deal with opportunity or scarcity someone comes to me with something that someone would be scared of and I'm like excited about it and I go in a different course than the other person so I didn't know you'd done psychedelics what was your response so you guys have both done it I

assume yeah I I went I went into a you know psychedelics not for Joy or pleasure but with uh with Shaman guiding and I have done iwaska a number of times I've done uh a combination of psilocybin and um and uh uh MDMA uh but for me it was my DMT Journeys that were the most significant have you done D I haven't done any I've micro Doocy to virtually no effect so the uh the DMT which is also called the toad or bufo uh dimethyl tryptophan I think is is dimethyl tryptamine tryptamine um was uh

was extraordinarily compelling um and uh it is a dissolution of the ego um which is and a connection with the universe that lets you know that love is a pervasive force and we're all connected in that regard and that I had my most significant um visualization about if you ask me the question uh what do you think happens after after we're alive after we die uh that was my that was it first of all it got rid of the fear of death 100% which is probably the most extraordinary because it gave you realize everything is

connected everything is connected and we're just part of the universe and it's it's a transitory so I want you to imagine this is the visualization I had which gives me goosebumps still to this day uh I'm I'm coming out of my journey with in these in these uh DMT journe Journeys are very short uh you know 20 minutes thereabouts unless you're s because they last longer there uh but let me finish so I'm I'm seeing this this sea of energy just like a frothing sea of infinite energy a plane of energy in every direction and

I see coming out of the Sea of energy two double heles and they come out of the energy and they're there and then they go back into the energy and that was it and it was the really ization I can see it like it was yesterday it's a realization of this Infinity of of creation and energy and life emerges from it Consciousness emerges from it and then re-enters it I can you know listen this is my mind giving it meaning we are meaning making machines but so let me so you've had that you're just kind

of rationalizing it in your previous experience that's fine that's fine but let me give you tell you why I got excited by this whole world 12 we had a lecture at Singularity I think it was Chris disarm and he what he'd been doing was doing a whole bunch of clinical trials with people taking different dosages of MDMA psilocybin Etc and putting them through an fmri machine so in the 60s when Timothy lri and all these guys were taking drugs they had no idea where they were just chucking it down right but this now we know

exactly that this dosage substance of substance a will do this to neural circuit B and know exactly the emphasis and how much of an impact it'll have Etc and I found that fascinating because now we have a feedback loop what got me interested in DMT a feedback loop to what end well because now you can see what neural circuits are being Amplified or imp impacted you can now play with play with okay so I have to ask then so knowing how you're creating that state by manipulating certain neurons in your brain how how it do

you see an allergy or a scar I don't know that I I wish I did I don't but it's fascinating that that's there the numbers that it's there if it happened three four times you go ah 3 four times 3,500 times I got I got to start looking at that and that's that's the just the sheer numbers compel you to look at it a little more deeply but so for me now it look let's look at what DMT does DMT what it does is suppress the pride alobe which is where your sense of self sits

when you can take a dosage of it you suppress that Pride lobe and you are now free to explore the higher Realms of your Consciousness that you didn't have access to before is so when DMT is going is that all that's happening is is are there any areas that are more active or is it literally just shutting off the sense of self unclear but it seems the primary function is that reduces the uh activity in the parietal lobe I'm so fascinated by and then you start looking at other areas and now what's really interesting to

me on top of that is we' it turns out there's lots of old practices whirling dervishes when they do their their Turkish spinning end up with a DMT release they now know that DMT natural is naturally occurring in your brain it gets released twice in your life once at Birth once at death so when people have a near-death experience they see the white light that's DMT releasing in the brain interesting so now they've found religious experiences almost all religious experiences are essentially you work the physiology of the body to a point where you have a

DMT release Tantra and Kundalini work results that they take ground energy lift it through your body and you end up with a DMT I don't take the DMT Journey um lightly at all it's one of the most insightful and again I I I experienced it with reverence uh and and awe and um as a means to explore uh myself and the universe in a in a in a different way and I'm very thankful for it h yeah I'm very intrigued I ask about this a lot and by the way you know I I got to

a point afterward I said I'm just going to open share it openly I don't plan to run for president and I don't care uh what anybody thinks about it it was critically important to me yeah beautiful you met Michael jansson a couple of days ago um so one of the most fascinating things about him he's one of the most present people I've ever met and I said how do you maintain this like you have this incredible ability to just let things go not worry about stuff things happen everything just passes through them and and it

doesn't stick it's amazing he just kind of go releases instantly and he I he couldn't answer and I kept wanting to pull it out and he goes oh I've done a hero dose a few times I go hero dose so normal dose I guess is 100 milligrams of psilocybin a hero dose is when you do like five grams it's like a factory reset on your nervous system I'm like holy crap you've done that he goes I do it every year and and so all the cognitive biases that he may have built up Etc are constantly

getting released and therefore he operates in this unbelievably present form I think that's just amazing and I'm completely impressed by the younger generation micro doing all time you know one of the conversations uh I've been having at home recently is is the human species um waking up right you've heard of these conversations Sam Harris and all I was going to ask you guys if you've heard him describe his heroic dose and and so when we talk about becoming conscious at a species level in the next uh foreseeable future one of the questions that um uh

that Kristen asked was are we becoming conscious before AI becomes conscious H so this is an interesting conversation that would be I mean it would be very interesting I don't know if I can imagine an entire societal level Awakening but certainly as humans continue to progress as we are able to share ideas so much faster in the same way that culture has stacked on the technological side if it stacks on the Insight side and well imagine having a brain computer interface connection to the cloud along with a billion other people and sharing one's thoughts I

I call this The Meta intelligence where we become conscious on a large level right you and I and Saleem are all collections of 40 trillion human cells you're not a single life form you are 40 trillion human cells and then trillions of bacteria VY fungi and so forth but you operate As One MH right and so are we going to become conscious yet on another level to bring it back to exponential organizations um a traditional 20th century organization we would think of as unconscious it's trundling along trying to get profits Etc and an EXO is

a very conscious organization what makes it conscious MTP it's massive purpose plus it's constantly sensing with a feedback loop it's constantly experimenting it's allowing its people to operate in a decentralized autonomous way to make decisions on their own it's like an amiba moving around uh sensing the world and little by little evolving so there are I want I want to bring this back because I really want the community here to hear this and I want to use um I use impact Theory as the example here so uh there are 10 attributes that make an exponential

organization um they have the uh the uh acronym uh scale and ideas and um if we could I just want to take off the ones that that you hit so let's begin staff on demand H people cont we do a bit but I actually don't love that it was one of the things in your book I want to talk about but so okay staff on demand yes we do okay second Community yes very much Community is massive for you right um third Ai and algorithms yes aggressively aggressively fourth leveraging other people's assets don't know what

you mean by that cloud computing yes you don't have computers servers in your closet that you're using we do have some of that but not nearly as much as we Leverage The Cloud the Prototype there is Airbnb that entire business model is tapping into other people's bedrooms making them available and the four the fifth one in scale is engagement gamification incentive prizes which is we it's your whole thing right you're like a master of that so those are the five externalities and EXO use one or more of them allows them to keep a very small

resource footprint and then scale very quickly right Ted uses Community very effectively for example then there's five internal mechanisms that allow you to manage culture and drive the dashboard and the control framework of the organization the first is interfaces to those externalities so think about Uber's interface with its drivers or Apple's interface with its App Store developers it's an automated API driven interface that allows you to programmatically manage the abundance on the outside and then add value to it the second one is dashboards and this is real-time business metrics to track what's happening in the

I assume you use dashboards left right and Center not as much as we should but for our funnels yes for your funnels sure and then okr is for team performance and Team Management we found as so those are dashboards the E is experimentation which is Lean Startup thinking constantly testing assumptions non-stop running of experiments and the a culture of risk taking inside the organization constantly testing the edges and seeing what works what doesn't work etc the is autonomy decentralizing decisionmaking and allowing people to self- select what they want to work on as much as possible

which is one of the hardest things for a CEO or an entrepreneur to do is is say listen here's our mission our mission is 10 million viewers whatever it is doing this and this and this we want to give you the authority and autonomy to go and work on projects that are aligned with our MTP go Google does this a bit um the master of this I I should tell this quick story there's a Chinese appliance manufacturer called high h i e r they make like 55 million fridges and ovens here Jesus yeah it's a

huge company um and uh um 880,000 people operating in a classic pyramid form command and control hierarchical is hack CEO one day decides can't meet my corporate goals with this structure blows it up turns 80,000 people into 2,000 teams of about 40 people each each team has a p&l Target each team elect their own leader and most insane each team decides to do whatever they want to do now you go to any business school in the world say I want to make 55 million fridges and they'll tell you you need a ton of centralized demand

forecasting inventory manages supply chain d d turns out you don't these literally these 2,000 teams work autonomously like a beehive every team is deciding what they want how do they decide what teams to keep they don't they the teams decide on their own you can't get fired if you you can't if your team doesn't meet its p&l targets you have an issue and the way they meet the pnl targets is they work on a product and the products are the revenues are pulled against that product so when they I literally can't imagine this there's a

whole there's a whole book written on this it's an amazing case study what's the book called I'll get you the title of case stud is higher um and when they want to vote on what when what decide what features should we go into the new fridge they vote and 2,000 teams that are constantly outwardly facing with vendors suppliers Partners customers are come up with a much better decision than some product strategy team hold up with Market forecasts and research groups right and so uh GE Appliances actually gave up and sold that whole division to higher

because they couldn't compete because you can do so much more with a decentralized organization we're not quite ready for Dows but we will be over time and you're kind of building one in in its I'm not I'm violently not building a dow well think about what you're doing right with your metaverse environment anybody can come self-provision and play in that environment they can play in that environment they're certainly trying to build things so that they can build in that environment but that is that's a platform play like I get platforms and so our fantasy would

be on a long enough timeline where like the YouTube of video games that's right so people can come in and build not we we could go down a rabbit hole about how we're going to be different than Roblox but we have a vision but leveraging some of that but this is like I literally wrote before you started talking the thing I want to talk about is how you leverage autonomy so the way that we think about it at impact theory is I want people to be able to make decisions in their area like okay your

function is art for instance I'm not going to come in and turn you into a pair of hands I want you to think for yourself you understand our objectives go do the art thing but we set the objectives as a company then the department sets their own objectives and then the individual works with their supervisor to set it yeah but this is not hey you're in a team of 40 and like oh I hope you meet your p&l like I can't fathom how you get to that I have to imagine that this is never going

to be the standard it's non-trivial to implement but when you can Implement is very powerful let me give you two examples that bridge the Spectrum one is if you're an employee and you join Google as a new hire okay you're not placed on a team what they do is go you've got six months float around meet different teams work with them da d d d da how do they decide to hire you you you have to hire they they hire basically super smart and we know we need python developers so hire the python developer now

do you work on Gmail do you work on Google Maps Etc what you do is you float around as that developer or front end person or designer whatever your skill set is and you float around you meet the different teams you see where you have chemistry you go I really love what they're doing on Google Maps team seems to like me they go sure come and join us now if after six months you haven't found a team bigger conversation you probably don't fit there for some reason but if you found a team after choosing over

6 months all of a bunch of different options you're probably where you really really like being right so now off they go so that's one example of implementing this in the new hire model the full extent of autonomy I'll give you the example of Tangerine Bank in Canada which is used to be in direct so they operate on this fully autonomous basis they have no CEO no reporting Lines no management teams no middle management no meetings of any kind they literally operate on a beehive where each employee self- selects us to what they want to

do okay now you're a regulated Bank Canadian banks are very regulated right so what happens is when the marketing guy goes oh let's do an online promotion because he's self- selected wants to focus on that and they launch an online promotion everybody floods to the phone Banks and helps out getting phone calls when it's regulatory reporting time they all flood to the regulatory systems and fill out all the paperwork to fill out all the forms to show the Canadian government that they're viable the most amazing example I've seen of this is valve software out of

Seattle that makes the steam platform by 400 people same ethos no CEO reporting lives so if I spot a bug in the software I grab three people we go fix the bug we disband every employee self- selects what they want to work on and it sounds completely like a joke but they get more Revenue per employ than Microsoft they make a fortune so it's very doable you have to start it you have to start it with that principle in mind yeah it's like physics something a particle born above the speed of light can't go slower

and below the speed of light can't exceed the speed of light I think you have to this is found founding starting conditions for your company yeah this is I don't know what I find harder to believe reincarnation or that you can do this but look I I don't shut down emotionally I'm very open I just everything that I know with perhaps just my limited skill set that is a recipe for chaos or you have to hit a certain size like when I think about Google being able to do that there's no way that you can

start like that I get how can get so big you have so much Surplus money that you can let a person wander around for 6 months with no like real specific job or that you can hire somebody oh you know Python and you're smart great you know you know valve software is about 400 people it's not that over they're also the company when when you said oh we're doing a a case study on valve in the book I was like Oh you mean the company that couldn't get halflife three or two whichever it was out

for 15 years I was like yeah I'm not surprised but then you said that they make more per employee so I was like ah [ __ ] yeah so it directed execution turns out to be non-trivial in these organizations it's like Dow governance right it's an oxymoron it's very hard to right so um but in terms of resilience unbelievable because you cannot break that organization because everybody's self- selecting when there's a problem they naturally find the problem they go fix it I think you need to still you need to hire for that people need to

have you absolutely have to hire you can't have you know Tony Shay tried for three years to implement that into zap and it just failed you can't bring it into this is why we say when you're an existing organization and you want to turn into an EXO don't go through the nightmare of trying to transform yourself put up create new exos on the edge and let those slowly become the new Gravity Center what was the example of the company maybe it was the washing machine company or the fridge company but they literally were like H

we're firing everybody and then a third of them left and they restarted with 2/3 and they did just fine uh it was hired that in the book in fact Zappos when Tony shade first suggests he voluntarily said who wants to move to this model and everybody was like yeah this is crazy we're not doing that so then he went we strongly suggest that you move to this model then finally he said if you don't move to that model you're fired and even then it failed very hard to implement into a legacy organization did we finish

the attributes oh so autonomy and the final one is social Technologies um Asana slack Zoom chatter Yammer etc etc we found we have really good evidence today that peer-to-peer collaboration is much more powerful than traditional top down command and control thinking so what do you guys think about what Elon is doing at Twitter he recently was interviewed and he said it is immoral to work from home and I was like wow yeah we had this conversation yesterday about you know uh listen I miss having an office setting mhm I do and I miss and I

I recognize and realize that the intensity of the amount of work that gets done when a group is together is substantially higher than alone but you know the flip side of that is the geographic Arbitrage that I can get access to talent that I might not otherwise get to move to Santa Monica yeah yeah I mean my CEO lives in the Bay Area my VP finan is in Spain my head of community is in Cape Town we have a totally distributed organization and yes we're less efficient than if everybody was in one place but I

can operate across multiple time zon seamlessly people are living where they want to live they're living with their families etc etc so I'm a Believer in the remote work side yeah I also think we're going to see a transition as uh as the next generation of metaverse systems come online you know if we're there will be a point where we are sitting in the metaverse and I feel like I'm here with you and having this conversation and hopefully the glasswar becomes light enough and easy enough where it's it's very interactive the key heuristic I think

when you think about Elon with Twitter Etc and people is do you trust them do you trust your people right and most corporations operate out of mistrust you're like checking things and you have to file travel expense reports etc etc and the entire structure is set up to mistrust you uh and when we move to this new model of exos by default you tend to trust the teams to do what they're trying to do the best you're trying to trust trust Over Control right trust beats control is one of the key implications jery molski who

one of our community members said this brilliantly he said um uh scarcity equals abundance minus trust it's interesting for me it doesn't come down to trust I don't even want to have to think about the people on my team I want to play my position I want them to play theirs and I never want to have to think about it it really comes down to results and focus and like you need like this is going to be interesting saying to you guys but you need some variation of the immune system and that the immune system

will detect cancer so yes it can say no to things that it shouldn't say no to but it can also stop the free riters and the the just reality is that you will get people using Game Theory to be like oh you can hide in this company and everybody can just do whatever the hell they want you will get people that then just become selfish and then other people look at that and resentment builds and so you get other people how do you you know there's there's a uh my I'm moving all of my companies

onto something called EOS the entrepreneurial operating system MH and is this formal it it is it's a it's a uh it's something you can go look it up entrepreneur operating system and um uh and what we do is we meet and it's a process of thinking and running your organization sort of like an operating system for a company and we have what's called a a 10x meeting every week with the entire group we're reviewing our rocks our our action items uh our dashboards and everybody's got assigned specific actions and and uh and it's not possible

to hide in that regard if you properly Implement okrs you you really can't hide and yet you can give people a lot of autonomy and they can go do their thing but whether it's EOS or whatever the model is um it brings it together so we have today very modern team and individual performance structures that allow us to handle thata you can hide in traditional organizations because there's 20 developers on some team and nobody knows really Who's the who the rock stars are HR never knows okay one thing we've noticed the particular indictment I would

have is today's most big corporations are structured in a matrix structure products on the verticals and you have legal HR branding privacy Etc and Terry sem when he was running Yahoo made the mistake of putting in a matrix structure into it and it's like that structure is great for kind of command and control but it's terrible for risk-taking and it's terrible for Speed because every time you try to do something you want you have to clear all those levels so it was taking us close to a year to release some feature on Yahoo personals and

Myspace was released and Facebook was the killer here where they came along and Zucker birt said if you feel your code is ready take it live on the live site we'll give you access to the live site your code better be good otherwise if you take the take us down you're fired but the developer has got such a sense of empowerment and autonomy from that and and wow he trusts us to let us take our code life they were rolling out features every week do they still do that I'm not sure if they still do

that but that was what got them that was what blew Myspace away blew Yahoo away at the time the early days of high-risk taking for any entrepreneurial company is is amazing we we don't have a legal department yet we don't have HR department and over time power crws to the the horizontals because they have no incentive in saying yes and so when we coach CEOs we basically say take all those horizontal layers and every 3 four years just blow them up and reinvent them watch this conversation with emod moac to learn exactly how AI will

disrupt the entire world how do we make sure it doesn't kill us or how does it make sure it doesn't enslave us or how does it make sure that it doesn't give us Eternal suffering and I realize this could be the real thing that unlocks Humanity a AI is not going to replace humans humans with it