The Emotions Expert: Why Avoiding Your Feelings Is Dangerous - with Joe Hudson

hey friends welcome back to Deep dive this episode is going to be a little bit different from my normal conversations because this is a recording of an online coaching session that I had with Joe Hudson now Joe is an absolutely remarkable executive coach and teacher who works with some of the world's top leaders and companies and me and before becoming a Coach Joe has had a pretty interesting very windy career as a venture capitalist a filmmaker a philanthropist and much more and his unique approach to personal growth comes from over a decade of experience and

a deep 25 year long meditation practice and his whole mission is to help people unlock their full potential and to transform their lives in our conversation we talk a lot about emotion how to truly process our feelings the root causes of our worries and anxieties and what we can do to really listen to ourselves and live the life that we want I'm excited to share this with you because we often hear a lot about coaching we don't always get to see what a session can really look like and I'm hoping you can also take something

away from this in terms of helping you access and processing your emotions a little bit better and I hope you enjoy the session as much as I did hi Ali it's good to see you again man yeah likewise I'm looking forward to this where where are you you have quite an interesting background it seems like you're in a warehouse of some sort or I'm in a Wei work in London right now I I flew in from New York this morning um for yeah to spend some time in London with the family awesome how I know

you've been traveling a lot this year how has that been for you it's been super fun yeah uh it's been a a few months of kind of non-stop travel it was meant to be few months here and there of like oh you know let's do Austin for a few few months and then La for a few months but because my book came out like last week it's just ended up being a whole Whirlwind of like book touring and podcasting and stuff so now things are finally settling down a bit it's nice to be back in

London for a little bit of stability that's great yeah I know that feeling when I was a venture capitalist I would I think there was a one week where I was like on three continents in a week and it was just it's quite brutal quite brutal yeah um uh so do you want to just tell everybody a little bit about you and and give everybody some backstory and then we'll jump into a coaching session sounds good yeah so backstory uh hi everyone my name is Ali I am a doctor turned entrepreneur I guess um I

worked as a doctor in the UK's National Health Service for two years and while I was doing that I started a YouTube channel on the side which grew to like a million subscribers in that time which was insane and then I decided to quit my job uh and become a sort of online course YouTuber author type person and over the last six seven years now I've been making videos about productivity and personal development uh which is why I very much Vibe with your stuff Joe and um my book feel good productivity came out like last

week and we found out yesterday that we actually HD the New York Times bestseller list which had been a goal for a very long time um and that was super nice but now I'm feeling a bit of a sense of like what now it feels like I've been building up for the last three years this big sneeze and and now the sneeze is out and now I'm thinking hm where does my life kind of go so I feel like this session with you Joe might come at a good time I was L Jour journaling about

this yesterday being like what what the hell do I want to do with my life now so okay so just is that how you want to spend your time or is there anything else also that's present that you would want to address in the coaching session not we might not get to any of them but just out of curiosity sure I mean one thing I was I'm very ke to talk to you about I've listened to a bunch of your episodes around emotions and I think I really struggle to feel my own emotions and that

when people ask me how do you feel I'm like that that c that phrase does not even vaguely compute okay great so then um so that leaves us with emotions and what do you want to do next great yeah okay so let's let's start there um what strikes me about you is that you probably always know what to do next as far as like like I I can't imagine that there hasn't there's been like a month of you really trying to figure out what you're going to do next instead of like you're actually doing something

next so I'm wondering how how right am I about that assumption or what what what might I be missing yeah that's pretty spot on um from like high school I knew I wanted to get to med school med school itself is a conveyor belt after that it's like you become a doctor and it's convey a belt and like literally the week that I took a break from medicine I got an email from penguin saying do you want to write a book and then that took over my life and now we're three and a half years

later where I have no clear next thing to do and it now Feels Like H the the possibilities have opened up a little bit okay great and then so one of the things that has changed is the fact that like there's no conveyor belt system here it hasn't just been an opportunity that's dropped and that that's what you do next but what I also notice is that you're also in a place in your life where I'll say it like you probably have most of what you thought you wanted when you were in your early 20s

yeah so um absolutely I I think for for a long time I was chasing the goal of Financial Freedom and like 4our work week and all that stuff yeah and now I'm kind of there so I'm like H what comes next what comes next right so no conveyor Bel so the rules of the game are are are have changed and now and to some degree it sounds like there is just no rules it's what do you want yeah so what do you want like don't if you if you don't think about it as like this

is what I have to do next and you just think about it in Gross wants what do you want I want I guess to continue to live life on my own terms to not go back to a day job um I really like teaching like that's always been a thing that's sort of lit me up inside when I can like learn something cool and share it with with someone else um the the making of YouTube videos itself as that vehicle for teaching less fun now I've had been doing it for seven years but I really

like the idea of teaching in real life I attended a Tony Robin seminar two of them and I was like whoa that doing stuff like that seems like it would be fun um so I think there's something around teaching like and and also living life on my own terms so what what if anything would stop you from living life on your own terms at this point I have these um weird fears around money I think okay so hold on stop right there you stopped you closed your eyes you went inward yeah what happened there like

tell me describe your internal process was that a let me stop and think and a whole bunch of thoughts move through your system was that like a you feeling your sematic experience what what just happened there you you asked what's stopping you from living that and then I was like H that's a good question I said what would what could stop you oh what could stop you yeah um and I've not been asked that in that form before so I was like what could stop me and then a yeah a bunch of like options seem

to present themselves and I did I I did some like quick calculations and sort of pointed at like fear of running out of money or like wanting desire to make more money as being like a thing that like tie that like sort of ties a bunch of them together right so and and was that a intellectual fully intellectual process how sematic was it how emotional zero sematic intellectual yeah right yeah apparently zero sematic but your body took a very particular form so like typically if I see you on doing YouTube or or talking to you

in real life you can access emotion incredibly quickly not emotion excuse me in thoughts very quickly you can speak very quickly and you and I I know by the way that you're doing it that you might not even know what you're about to say but you can say it and like it can all make sense and it can and you haven't even said it before it's like Bam Bam Bam Bam Bam without any of that this that happened without any of the stopping contemplation so what what's the how what made that different if it wasn't

sematic what made it different it's happening again now just yeah I I I I think what made it different is that I wanted to give a real answer and not just uh whatever was coming out of my mouth in like presenter mode yeah um and treating this like as if you know I've got I've got Joe Hudson here on the phone like let's let me make sure I'm like giving something that that feels real rather than I think often in podcasts I'm I'm in like performance mode or or whatever so I I I wanted to

make sure I wasn't trying to I wasn't bullshitting myself I wasn't I wasn't I wasn't bullshitting you yeah yeah so just to say what I noticed you say you said I wanted to make sure it felt I it feels like something real literally using the word feel and to do that you actually put yourself in your body went into a very particular position that was unique from this other position I I just want to mark that we'll get to it later but I just want to mark it and then uh go back so so the

big thing is that I'm now going back to the to the conversation we were having before which was that that there's a money fear that you have that um that maybe I won't be able to live life on my own terms if for whatever reason this money thing goes away and so my question for you then my question for you then is if that fear existed in your system before you knew what money was what would that fear be called [Music] some sort of fear of not being safe yeah so I want you to take

take a moment and in in we that was the first way to ask that question I'm gonna ask the same question in a in a slightly different way which I want you to have the experience of lack of safety around money oh all this money might go away or I have to make sure I get I keep enough money just close your eyes and just tell me don't even tell me just feel what happens in your body when you think about it and now without a a single thought whatsoever Trace that to the very first

time you felt that s that particular set of Sensations and what's the story if any that comes up when you think about not think about feel this set of Sensations in your early childhood so what's what's happening inside you right now is it that you came up with idea and said that didn't make sense or you're like nope it's not happening or what's what's going on yeah I'm trying to vividly imagine the feeling of like running out of money and like I'm not like feeling anything I'm just like I I'm so I feel like I'm

sort of like come on imagine the feeling imagine the feeling like feel something God damn it feel something and it's like right no yeah okay so do that again find the sensation of you looking for a feeling and not being able to get it like you're doing what what is that like in your body not not the sensation of fear but the sensation of trying to get there and not get there yeah it's a bit of a constriction in like my sort of belly bson type area great so and I just want to teach you

one more little itty bitty trick do the same thing again and and go ahead and feel what's in your and now I want you to lift your chin up like lift your chin little more yeah like that great and now I want you to lower your chin and tell me what happens in your ability to feel in your body I feel like the the feeling is stronger when I'm sort of like doing this yeah yes that is that would be most of the literature would say that and what I noticed is when you talked about

I love that literature PE you you're like literature that the the the uh when you did the first time when you were feeling into like the loss of money in your system your chin was doing this your chin was Raising and when you were like like let me find the real answer your chin went down so if you watch back the video you'll just notice and one of the main things that happens is that the one of the two ways we stop emotions in our body is raise our chin which is why a definition say

of narcissism that some people have for narcissism um is um and narcissism is a very misunderstood word but uh is is basically not being able to feel your emotions and you'll notice that like when someone's acting like a narcissist in a movie they'll put their chin up it's kind of part of the part of the deal if you look at like a famous narcissist when you actually see them their chin is up so just say that the other one is holding the jaw it's like keeping the jaw tight that's another one that people use to

not feel emotions is to to to clamp the jaw just just a sematic little trick for you um okay so it's this kind of what you said was and I'll stop stop going meta for a second we'll just actually deal with the the thing itself uh so what you you're in this new transition you have a uh you've got what you wanted so you have that experience and there's no automatic conveyor belt next thing that's happening and there is this money fear that's that drive some of what you want which is to be able to

maintain your life and then the other part that you notice that you want is teach ing but online teaching is not as as exciting as as as the idea of at least in person and then on a non-b business level what are what are other goals that are just apparent to you if any I want to get into the best shape of my life take my health more seriously yeah um I want to host six mini Adventures With Friends SL family and of connect people together those are three kind of big other ones what I

noticed is everything that all of your goals are about connection connection to yourself or connection to others yeah incl including teaching in person is a far more connecting experience than teaching online yeah so thr bit that way yeah so so if we if we if we assume that we I'm not going to say that's right by any's church but if we assume that for a second and you think about your career give me five ways that you that the experience of your career could feel far more connecting [Music] connected more inperson stuff with my team

like I really enjoyed it when I was in London we were all in person and now we're kind of remote and digital nomading but like I miss hanging out with the team in person and definitely more real life teaching I used to do a lot of that when I was in med school and then sort of got away from it with the whole online world and I I'd like to get back to that I'd like the teaching to connect more with myself in terms of the things that are alive for me in a given moment

rather than the things that I think will drive clicks and views for the algorithm in a given moment yeah I like the idea of building some sort of online community type thing we're sort of toying with this idea that seems like it could be fun and quite connecting and I like the idea of doing what the like doing like life coaching East type sessions with people but like helping them boost their productivity or like overcome procrastination or things like that that feels like oh that would be a fun way of doing content in a sort

of connecting e type way that also then is really helpful for people to see sort of the behind the scenes of how I would coach someone to be more productive for example great and and out of curiosity how how much of that uh um actually excites you like you'd be like oh that'd be cool if that all happened or is those were just the that was the brainstorm how much of them excite you like if I could click my fingers and all those things happened how many would you be like yeah cool uh basically all

of them um okay the working with the team in person one less so because I'm like I I also want to travel and do the digital nomat thing so it's like this bit of logistical stuff around there but it'd be really cool to have the community to do some inperson it seminars to like do this coaching e type stuff and to make videos that I feel like making rather than videos that I feel like I should make because the algorithm or whatever wants me to right and and just on that part about the team if

you if i s my fingers and there was like a 10day period every quarter where you all sat down and we're together connected working together how how would that feel oh that's great we're we're doing that already so yeah it's so fun I look forward to those here okay great great yeah this episode of Deep dive is brought to you by brilliant brilliant is an amazing am Learning Resource that allows you to level up your skills and your knowledge and understanding in maths and data science and computer science now what I like most about brilliant

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notes for a completely free 30-day trial and if you use that link you will also get 20% off the annual premium subscription so thank you so much brilliant for sponsoring this episode so it seems like what I notice is your natural your natural your natural progression is is to move into something that's more connective so here's my my question for you how do you connect more right now without changing anything that you're doing meaning you're not going to get off the podcast and like go and like sit in yoga mudra and do breath work like

how right now do you connect more like right now in this moment correct yeah h thing that's coming to mind is sort of um a sense of connecting with my internal self or something and like trying to speak from the heart rather than from the head while we're having this conversation yeah sounds good yeah so I just want to note that means again putting attention into your body not just the intellectual process yeah yeah yeah and I'm like as you as you asked that question I'm like hm I'm like paying attention to like my feet

on the floor and like oh yeah I've got my hands on the table and stuff right that sort of that thing that eot to talks about is just like sort of feel feel what's happening in your body and I'm like oh yeah I I don't do that by default um right so that was a nice reminder so like yeah I'm sitting here right now I and I want to note a it took no energy if anything I saw it take less energy from you and and you just said feel my body I I just want

to keep on talking about the feeling as I see it come up yeah yeah so so if I could click my fingers right now and all of a sudden you were just 10% more connected in everything you did in the same way that you just became 10% more connected and sitting and talking with me so no ma nothing in your life changed as far as the practicalities and tactical what I do today but when you got on YouTube it felt 10% more connected when you interacted with your team is 10% more when you're writing your

book it was 10 when you're doing the next podcast interview how how exciting would that be that would be pretty freaking cool yeah feels like so easy why don't I just do that what do you think it would do for your career your money just to like to address the money fear what do you think it would do we obviously have no idea but if you were to guess if I were to put money on it it would grow the business without me having to think too H about it because I'd be operating from a

place of like connectedness or something yeah yeah t typically I noticed that as a public figure people want to be to be able to connect with you and so your connection your connection with yourself is a big component in that recipe yeah I was I did a live stream about an hour ago just on my second YouTube channel where I was just having a bit of a chat with whoever was there and people were like you know we want to see more of your life and I was like but I don't know what would be

helpful for you guys and they were like no just like talk about anything we want to hear about you like come on man um so that's kind of speaks to this idea yeah exactly so so what if that's instead of the career goal being like the typical goals write a book make x amount of dollars get enough clicks what if the goal was be 10% more connected in everything I do that would be really cool that would be very interesting to try out yeah yeah yeah so I'm gonna ask this weird this really weird question

give me just the thing about the business like for some businesses it would be billing I don't think you do a lot of billing but like one one of those rot things that your business does that hopefully you've outsourced or delegated at this point but but either way something that your business does it's this kind of rote mundane non- exciting thing uh filming sponsorship segments for the videos and for the podcast awesome I want you to do two things one is I want you to think about how to do that in the most connected way

possible not meaning as a whole system not just you being there doing the sponsorship but like the whole organization being deeply connected in that process and I want you to do it while being connected with yourself yeah I can think of some ways to do that yeah I love how quickly your mind just your mind works so fast it's so cool to watch it so give me give me give me the ideas that just came just by doing that little experiment what ideas just showed up oh the ideas were like um working with sponsors and

actively reaching out to sponsors that we really Vibe with um immediately Lululemon came to mind because like every piece of clothing I own is Lululemon and we just never bothered reaching out to them to be like hey do you do you guys want to work together and stuff because this something was holding us back and things that would be pretty connected um actively reaching out to all of the tech companies whose stuff I actually use rather than just worrying about all the inbound from people who's trying to convince us to use their stuff and you

know all that and then if at one point I had the weird thought that like I would love to do sponsored segments where I I say a poem about the the thing or it like Rhymes in some kind of way or I turn it into a song while playing on the guitar and then a friend told me no that's bad for conversions don't do that and I was like okay I guess I won't do that but actually that would be a way more fun and interesting way to do a sponsored segment if I'm like composing

a song plus chat gbt really helps with like rhyming stuff these days so those things came to mind yeah great and totally as you know in this job it's experiment after experiment is what you learn so it all sounds like great experiments yeah so look at look at just what happen so even you could take even the thing that is uh most mundane that you dislike the most put it through this goal about how does this become how do I do this in a more connected way while being connected thinking about it and immediately it

Sparks this another level of creativity I mean you're obviously very creative in everything you do to come up with that much content there's just a huge creativity there but all of a sudden it Sparks this whole another level of creativity that right so that that same lens could be put at everything you do how do I buy camera equipment how do I like everything you do there can be this question of like how do I maximize the [Music] connection sick okay I need to remember this somehow it's recorded you're fine 20 2024 goal even now

I'm just like sort of I've got my hands on the table and I'm just sort of like noticing my fingers on the table and I I never notice my fingers on the table but like yeah for the last like five minutes I've been like this there part of me that's like keeping that keeping some percentage of my attention on that while also talking to you and I'm finding that as that's happening like my uh you know I was feeling a bit of like oh [ __ ] you know I hope this episode's good enough for

Joe to put on the Pod I hope I don't embarrass myself all of that's gone I'm just like we're just having a chat now yeah yeah so one one technical hack there's this great uh app called Yap um and it just reminds you I have a silent phone that does almost it makes no sounds the only sound it makes is Yap which is really great because then I don't get bothered and it like I would for you right now I'd put on that Yap chat the question would just be how do I be 10% more

uh connected right now and that would just be this automatic reminder that happens the other thing that I'll I'll say is that as you move away from the brain and all the intellect stuff and you move into your body you'll start to be able to trust that your body will catch stuff that you're you don't need to write on a list so what like what if you're all in the head then there's a lot of like oh I have to capture this but if you actually allow it to hit your body and resonate in your

body oftentimes that works better than a list because you write it on a list but do you remember to read the list and whatever you know happens yeah then it's the whole thing of like how do I make sure I remind myself to then like go on that Google doc or whatever the thing was exactly that whole thing yeah so I just say it is that as you're start as you're starting to learn about the feeling in the sematic world it's it's it's uh detracting to then immediately go and write it down if it prevents

the integration of it in the body so let it integrate in the body and then go write it down meaning like right now you are feeling what it is to be 10% more connected in our conversation together keep keep that keep the attention in the body and and then you'll remember more likely than if you read it on a list nice thanks yeah cool so the only thing that I see is the open thread that we have left is um uh and I'll check before we go here but it's just the the feeling piece of

it um so any other questions about uh what to do next in your career is like how what what if anything is still open there honestly I think even just like running it through that filter of like what does 10% more connected look like I've you know I've got the answers I can yeah that's not yeah okay rock and roll yeah thank you easy peasy okay so then on the feeling of emotion stuff yeah so the the question I have for you is how much of it is conscious and how how much of is it

that you're not feeling your body and how much of it is that you're not aware that you're feeling how much of it is that you're not feeling and how much of it is that you're not aware that you're feeling I'm not sure but sometimes um I'll be with like my brother and say like hey are you okay and I'm like yeah because you've got tears in your eyes right now and it looks like you're about to cry and I'm like whoa and I'm like [ __ ] you're right that's weird and then they' be like

how are you feeling and I'm like I don't know like I'm I've got tears in my eyes like I'm clearly and and then I'm and then I try and sort of like reverse engineer like what that there must been something that's come up that triggered me in some way but I would just have no sense of like feeling in the body any different to what I was like 10 seconds ago but now but I can feel like my eyes like sort of screwing up a little bit and like the you know yeah stuff okay so

the body is doing something it's there is an awareness thing that's happening so I just's a couple intellectual pieces on this the the first intellectual piece is if you take a kid who's physically abused and you put a quarter in one hand and a key in another hand without them seeing it as an adult they won't be able to tell you which hand has the key and which hand has the quarter because the the human system is really smart if something is too painful it cuts off and so most of us me me particularly in

my journey I couldn't have told you what emotion I was having at all and I wasn't particularly expressive of them because emotions were way too painful there was too much emotional abuse and emotional AB abuse is a word that I think is I you I throw it around very easily and what I mean by emotional abuse is um excuse me um what I mean by emotional abuse is that somebody held you responsible for their emotional state or somebody told you the emotions that you were having were not okay to have those are the two ways

of like so jealousy would be a form of emotional abuse um don't be so excited Johnny don't cry Johnny whatever all those things would be forms I would I in my definition those would be emotional abuse and so the first step in in overcoming that is just learning to be aware of of of the emotional experience and for some people yeah and for some people um like for me the way I first started to learn that I was in fear is that I had binary thinking I was so aware of my thought process that I

was like oh I notice I'm thinking black or white right now I must be in fear and then it was later that I learned oh this is the sematic experience of fear in my system so I I looked at the way my thought pattern showed fear before I actually learned how to feel it somatically but my body was in fear either way so I I just give that as a background that hopefully may be helpful so and I noticed that there's a a way that you know being real you put your chin down you feel

more you allow yourself to be in the body and last part if you have a practice of just that idea of like oh some of my attention is in my body while we're sitting here talking together everything else will take care of itself like we don't need to have a session if you just keep 10% of your awareness in your body as much as possible everything else will take care of itself ready there's no there's no need yeah it's it's an it's one of the most powerful practices but most people can't pull it off it'll

the the transformation and change can happen so rapidly that they will that they will leave their body because it's too much for them to to feel but but anyways just just know that that's like the the the that's the hack and I know you're good at him like yeah so so if there's anyone be able to do it um okay so not all the intellectual stuff is aside um what what what kind of a what kind of if right now you start balling crying just like weeping and crying over the fact that you weren't allowed

to have the emotions because as a child because survival was such a bigger priority and so your parents couldn't see your emotional life and instead all they could see was preparing You To Survive for instance I'm I'm not saying that's true but uh how would you feel about like you just cried on this podcast and everybody and all your and your you know the two million subscribers all knew that you cried about this pain in your life how how what what would be the what would be your reaction to that that would be kind of

cool if I had such a an emotional response to like a thing i' be kind of intrigued okay yeah great so there's not there's not like a I need to be seen not sad or what what's the emotion that if happened right now you would be like if any you would be like oh I I shouldn't have done that on on a podcast anger fear sadness excitement exuberance joy peace I'm Co I'm cool with all those um oh the the the only thing that comes to mind is like I wouldn't want to say something bad

about like someone I love in public on a podcast or something it's like but there's not much risk of that happening but any kind of em I I would love to express emotional emotions openly on a podcast that would be perfect okay great outside of the emotion that you just expressed for instance uh what emotion did I just Express yeah what what emotion did you just Express us I'll do it for you right here this is what look I would I would love to have a whole bunch of emotions on a podcast that would be

great yeah that would be great emo yeah yeah I guess that was it like joy joy yeah oh my goodness emotions sign me up yeah right even some excitement in there I would say like it's like there is right and so how did you know that I was in excitement and Joy when I did it cause you were smiling and your voice went like louder and he moved around a little bit and stuff right which if you can't if you're on the podcast just listening you can't you can see Ali doing this actually right now

in his body he's mimicking and you're liter I don't know if you were aware of it but you were literally like jolting and moving and smiling and so somehow or another your body knows how to do it when you're even just talking about it h yeah so then then what's your what's your okay go ahead like I don't have an issue with I think with experiencing positive emotions but it's like okay no I'm I'm going to rephrase that I don't I don't think I have an issue with like feeling excitement I I I do often

feel excitement but emotions like like love and or anything around around like sadness or sorrow or like you th like those are the ones where I I'm I'm not sure how I feel this episode of Deep dive is being very kindly sponsored by trading 212 now investment and trading can seem pretty complicated especially if you're a beginner I've made a bunch of videos about this and the thing I always recommend is to just invest in lowcost Broad stock market index funds which you can actually do completely for free with trading 212 it's a great app

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the difference between sorrow and love what would it be H I would say that love is sort of like this subtle positive glow and sorrow is like a subtle negative anti glow or something okay so we're going to do one of the great things about doing any kind of emotional work is you can experiment like real time and it's really great so what we're going to do is we're going to find a memory that brings up love for you and then we're going to find a memory that brings up sorrow for you and when you're

going to catch one in your body then you're going to catch the other one in your body and you're going to go back and forth for a while and then we'll I'll ask you a question or two what um so come up with a memory you can share or not share doesn't matter that uh immediately brings up a a the feeling of love in your system maybe it's a dog or brother younger sibling cousin yeah yeah okay so go ahead and and feel that like have that memory and just notice what happens in your system

great that's enough yeah and then I want you to think of a a a memory that sorrow loss of something or so I noticed that you're chin just went up oh interesting memory of Sorrow I have this weird sensation of like oh you know I don't want to go there that's weird I do want to go there of course I want to go there um somebody taught you it wasn't safe at some point or the world in general did so there's there's a automatic reaction to it that is yeah great experience of Sorrow okay I've

got experience of Sor okay so bring yourself totally into your body again you're a little bit out there you go okay now I want you to go back to love and now I want you to go back to Sara h one more time back to love and back to the memory of [Music] sorrow and now I want you to hold both of them at the same time both of those two Sensations simultaneously great so what if any difference did you find between love and sorrow and then what happened when you brought them together H so

for sorrow I definitely felt some sort of thing around like here I think um so you're just for everybody what I'm hearing you say is like right around your is it below your belly button or above uh above my belly button just sort of like below sort of towards the bottom of my left kind of Rib Cage Great okay um like a sort of squeezy feeling there yeah I don't really know I felt anything somatically for the love thing it did feel like that that feeling eased up a bit and so when I was going

in between the two as like when I was thinking sorrow is like the squeez happened a bit more and when I was thinking love it sort of eased up and when a thing sore her the squeez and then it eased up again and when he said hold both at the same time I sort of I felt the squeez but I sort of took her sort of breath in and yeah then it was like the squeez was still there but like the the breath in was kind of like this like almost like this lightness at the

same time yeah so and and so how much would you say that the love created a sense of spaciousness around other stuff besides just the squeez or was the spaciousness just H how much was the spacious or how much of the relief was just around the relief SLS spaciousness was just around the squeezy part how much of it was just general oh interesting now that you mention it like when I think of the love thing there's a bit of like a sort of an expansion out sort of from I guess lower ribs kind of outwards

a little bit Yeah but I'm not sure if that's just I was taking a breath in maybe I yeah the the thing about emotions is that they do affect your muscles so a breath in if you're anxious you stop breathing like anxiety affects the breath love affects the breath Joy affects the breath it affects the body position it effects right so any emotion that we might have any emotion that we withhold requires us to uh constrict our muscles in a particular way so it's what one of the things when people look at me coaching and

they're like how the hell did he just do that I can do it because I can notice oh someone's head is up there they're cutting off an emotion or they have this line right here in their forehead which means they have repressed anger or blah blah blah there's they hunch back they had a highly critical parent there's all sorts of oh tells that people have in their body yeah so there there so anyway so there's the idea that you breath in and emotion are different is not is not particularly you know the most effective way

to look at it so if if so so the question I I the question I have is for you is um if you if you had guess what made it that sorrow was something that you didn't want to feel um so the the Sor I'm I'm not sure but the the sorrow experience I was thinking of was you know I had this big crush on this girl in my first year of med school and then she left the university for various reasons and I was like heartbroken and I genuinely felt pain in my body and

I was like whoa and like she was like my best friend as well and it's like I'm never going to have friends again uh and then I sort of talked myself out of that by bringing to mind dozens of counter examples of of that I actually did have friends and actually life was going to be fine and then like just sort of buried I think maybe buried that feeling of sorrow and sort of replaced it with h if I if I had to if I had to psychotherapies myself replaced it with a drive to succeed

um right a drive to like like you know this was very much unrequited love she wasn't interested in me okay that's fine let's freaking like dominate the with my business and stuff um and then right she came back to University a year later and a female friend said oh you know the way you get a girl to be interested in you is to actively not be interested in her and so I was like all right you know at that point I didn't have any affection for her then she seemed to like me and weird kind

Dynamic and yeah but I don't know so I just want to tie in somewhere in in your college experience you made the choice to have success over connection and now here you are you've got your success and you're like oh wait I also want the connection piece yeah that's interesting yeah just wanna yeah yeah yeah and so here here's the next question for you what everything your mind told you is true you had friends you could continue to make friends you were going to this woman wasn't required for your happiness all this stuff how would

you have allowed all that truth to be there but not have it repress your sadness your sorrow yeah that's all true but I'm [ __ ] sad yeah I think at the time and maybe still to this day I thought of sadness as being not a good emotion to have um and I think all the stoes and Kool-Aid that I've been drinking was like well we can control our responses to things and like you know it's just a story that you tell yourself so like you you just replace the story blah blah blah yeah um

but I think if I were to have heartbreak or sorrow now I like the idea of sitting with it and I I I had friends in school and college who would like have like sad songs playlists on Spotify and I'd be like what you have a sad song playlist like I mean yeah the music's good like chasing cars is a good song but like and they'll be like yeah you know sometimes I'm feeling sad and I just like play the sad songs and I'm like that's so doesn't make sense because now you're just wallowing in

the sadness and they're like yeah and I'm like what is wrong with you but I now kind of like the idea of like if I if I feel sad it would be nice to actually experience that and like wallow in the sadness in in air quotes what what what if it's not what would be another word besides wallow in indulge or Revel or oh experience or surf or enjoy yeah I like saber sa oh that's nice saber the sadness yeah yeah that's part of the human right so just as clear there's a distinction it's true

that if you make meaning of certain things it will create certain emotions in your body that's there's no doubt about it and you can change the meaning of something to change but you can also just have an emotion without a meaning then it's not required you don't have to have a meaning yeah of course mammals who don't think mammals who don't have thought have emotions yeah or at least yeah much lesser thoughts at least you know yeah go ahead yeah go on one of the stories that people oh please a bit of black okay is

isn't there that thing that like the I I I don't know where I was reading this but like you you you only experience an emotion for like 45 seconds and then to experience it for longer requires you to reinforce the story you're telling yourself about sad emotion I would you've never experienced an emotion for more than a second a single emotion for more than a second but there's never been a moment of waking in your life where you're not having an emotional experience is more of my the way I would describe it there's never a

non-emotional experience that you're having we're constantly in an emot like we have an emotional thing happening like a like music in the background it's constantly there as long as we're awake and it's never the exact same note or the exact same instrumentation and Note and everything like I've experienced sadness thousands of times but it always has a slightly different seasoning to it okay or it's a different combination it's like a little more sadness and a little less anger or whatever yeah yeah so I'd say that's more of the as far as telling the story to

indulge it there is something really really important about that which is you can be stuck in a story and then stuck in an emotional Loop for sure so if I'm helping somebody learn how to express their emotions which is not something you can do on a podcast um I might use a story to get them into that emotional state but I I don't want to reify the story is true all the stories are false the story that your sadness was going to last forever and that she hurt you and that she didn't want you and

it was unrequitted and that you had other friends every single one of those stories had some falsehood to it and there was no full truth in any of the stories and so if you believe in a story it can also stagnate an emotional experience that they're they're very related that way but just as easily you can have a similar emotional experience as for instance for me um I had the kind of reoccurring emotional experience of I can't get my dad's love that I moved away from you know which which was a long and with an

unrequitted in it and then you know I moved away my dad wasn't there it wasn't reoccurring so I just went I can't get money and it was just the exact same emotional experience but instead of not being able to get my dad's love it became I can't get money and so so you can you can have that you can have a a a a rut of an emotional experience and then change your story around it to maintain the emotional experience the reason that the the the other side of it is told so well is because

most people who are really good at describing [ __ ] can see how the thoughts affect their emotions not so much how their emotions affect their thoughts because they're more intellectually based there was a thing that came to mind as you were saying that this sort of um I can't get my dad's love I I can't get money um in that I feel like I have this constant sense of of there is more that needs to be done yeah um like you know we got the call yesterday like oh congratulations you're a a New York

Times bestseller and I was like you know my my brother was asking how do you feel and I was like hm I feel a sense of relief that like the work that we put into this has paid off but it wasn't a sense of like oh okay I can chill out now it was like well there's always more to be done you know there we we don't have any recurring Revenue products so like let's build this community thing and like you know like what are the goals like let's get after it you know there was

this weird kind like and I think I'm a pretty happy and content guy but I have this Kel of like dissatisfaction of like no there's always more to be doing yeah and almost a I find it hard to take a break and like give myself permission to simply read fiction or like just lie down and just do nothing because there is there is more to be done in terms of building up our monthly recuring revenue and all that crap to get where to get to a place of okayness I think to get to a place

of safety just to be clear I have to be not okay to get to a place of okayness yeah by by definition somewhat but yeah because if I was okay then it's like the reason to do stuff would be for the connection which would be quite a fun reason to do stuff for the connection for the fun of it rather than because there is a lack or a scarcity or a thing like yeah yeah yeah there I see the click that's it a and you were mentioning I was mentioning my dad had is that was

that relation did you notice that too that somehow that was part of for you to be okay with your mother or father that there was always something that needed to be done is that why that triggered that now that you mention it yeah okay yeah yeah yeah I think the sense of maybe I'm over therapizing myself but like I remember when like growing up we could never let our mom see us like me and my brother I I could never let my mom see me playing video games because if she did there was always something

else to do there was always a chore in the house that needed doing or like some homework they need doing or shouldn't shouldn't you be starting for your exams type thing yeah um and obviously that's now different but it's still a sense of man I can't continue playing bers Gate 3 because there's like brainstorming to do about the next video or like building a landing page for the next freaking course that we're doing or or whatever right yeah yeah exactly the same that's a hell of a four hour work week yeah love love the 4our

work right so how does that relate to um I don't have time to feel because there's something that has to be done I don't have time to be sad over this woman because I have to be successful like how how how much does that relate it it relates in the sense of I you know people often say you know you should celebrate the wins and there's part of me that says screw celebrating the wins there's more to be done right yeah what would celebrating your win look like having just hit the New York Times breast

seller what what what would if you were to celebrate the win in the most connected fashion possible what would it look like it would look like firstly sending thank you messages and gifts to everyone who's helped along the way and secondly chilling out for a month and just like binging a great fantasy fiction series that would be super fun that sounds really nice yeah yeah that would be nice what was the emotion you had during that experience when you were thinking about it your face changed color a little bit your eyes did something I have

a bit of like wateriness in my eyes that's so so strange a sense of like wow it's it's called gratitude it's called gratitude yeah the tears that's gratitude oh is it okay nice yeah just so you know um yeah it was like a sense of like oh I just didn't even remotely think that that was an option because there's more to be done but now that I'm thinking I guess that is an option well let's say you did let's say you did it let's say you did it for a second let's say you wrote all

those notes you spent that time in a deep gratitude for each of the people and you showed them that gratitude and you like totally checked out with fiction for a certain period of time at the end of two years would you be further ahead or farther behind definitely further ahead yeah yeah that's how important the emotions are to your productivity to actually like to stop and say is all we did was say what's the most connected way to do that you connected with yourself immediately the emotional experience of gratitude sh showed up which showed you

a path at least of working with other people and gratitude of giving yourself rest damn this is some good stuff man thank you thanks for i' seen you do this on other people and I was like what on here yeah wow so cool it's not just to be clear it's not me doing it to you but yeah it's it's me following you my experience of it is far more me following you than yeah it's so cool to experience anyone watching or listening to this like this is pretty cool stuff you started you what the interesting

thing is I always know where the thing and for anybody listening to this just like a quick little thing I don't even know if we captured it in the recording but the very first thing you said was I just finished the New York Times bestseller list and now I'm thinking what do I want to do next and so the the ver the very first thing you said was the kernel always almost always is is the kernel of what is being worked on just it's just a fascinating thing it's like people it I'm and that's why

I follow you you bring that up and I'm like oh that's what we're here for right like so that you you know it I don't know it that's so cool love it total pleasure thank you so much a pleasure it's been wonderful all right so that's it for this week's episode of Deep dive thank you so much for watching or listening all the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are going to be linked down in the video description or in the show notes depending on where you're watching or listening to this if

you're listening to this on a podcast platform then do please leave us a review on the iTunes Store it really helps other people discover the podcast or if you're watching this in full HD or 4k on YouTube then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode that would be awesome and if you enjoyed this episode you might like to check out this episode here as well which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode so thanks for watching

uh do hit the Subscribe button if you aren't already and I'll see you next time bye-bye