AGI Is Here You Just Don’t Realize It Yet w/ Mo Gawdat & Salim Ismail | EP #153

what's your predictions Mo for the year ahead the word on the street is we will achieve AGI in 2025 in my world they've already achieved AGI does anybody actually know how fast it's moving the Warhead has already been launched it's just a question of time before it hits its Target we're entering an Uncharted Territory we're upon the perfect storm of the most challenging time humanity has faced in my lifetime what do you imagine is the best outcome we're going to be seeing from AI a total Utopia of abundance where we absolutely need nothing and where

we do not report to stupid leaders anymore that seems like a very unchallenged life we decided that the purpose of life for some of us is to make more money and be billionaires indigenous tribes the purpose of life for them is to live at a very different level of abundance we're going back to that purpose what I ask people to do is to actually look deeply at what can I do now that's a moonshot ladies and gentlemen it's a pleasure to be here with with two friends Mo and SEL Mo you're in uh where Dubai

today in my studio in Dubai yeah I love it here fantastic and Saleem you're in the greatest city of the world New Jersey New New York okay uh as as per the citizens of the city I mean that's that assessment is up to New Yorkers really yes I was I will leave that one alone but I I do want to dive into what's going on in the world of AI does anybody actually know how fast it's moving and how dramatic the changes are going to be in our lives I mean we're all you know still

waking up taking the kids to school watching The Evening News having breakfast lunch and dinner and I'm on stages around the world as both of you are and when we get into a conversation and people actually understand the speed their brain breaks and they go what does that mean for for me and for my kids my job my country it's quite shocking isn't it I mean when when you so I speak around the word like like both of you and at the end of every conversation I I almost liken it to a war where the

Warhead has already been launched right it's just a question of time before it hits its Target my my assessment though is that we don't know if it's carrying roses or carrying a a a nuclear warhead or maybe a bit of both one after the other but it's already in the air I mean we are so Advanced as compared to 2023 when when uh you know Chad GPT first came out it it's not even compatible so I I want to get into that in this episode I want to talk about you know you're going to be

you're both going to be at the abundance Summit and mo your title is going to be near-term dystopia on the road to abundance I want to talk about what near term means and what the dystopia looks like and what abundance looks like on the flip side uh selem you're wearing white today uh so you're going to play the good you're with that team and and it really is it's really a debate between is this the greatest benefit uplifting all of humanity or is is this something that's going to well it is going to it's it

is going to reinvent every aspect of Our Lives period um but I have a question for you to both of you the time frame for Reinventing every aspect of our lives our businesses our governments is it two five or 10 years Mo inventing as the change is already in place and everything in our life is determined by it I'd say five five Seline uh I go with the around 10 years and the reason I say that is I I'm kind of a believer in the William Gibson quote the future is already here is just unevenly

distributed and it we find it takes a very long time much longer than even when we want it happen to get say autonomous cars at the door or crisper at the door into broadstream mainstream use and so I think it goes slower than that but In Pockets it'll move unbelievably U quick L and that the the gap between those two is what's causing a lot of the stress if it all happened in an even way we could kind of deal with it but it's happening in different places and different speeds and we are just totally

discombobulated because of that yeah and I think the challenge is we've had huge change in humanity from you know 100,000 years ago to agrarian society to even the Industrial Age but it's happened over lifespans and hasn't happened over you know a single fiveyear period uh let's you want to go white you want to go bright side or dark side first so what's let's go bright side so Mo what do you imagine is the best outcome we're going to be seeing from AI a total Utopia of abundance where we absolutely need nothing and where we do

not report to stupid leaders anymore I'll leave that one alone for the moment but uh and stupid leaders could be uh anything on any level I me most of our most of our global leaders are in that category let's face it the challenge I have is if we have this extraordinary Utopia where all of our needs are being met you know Food Water Energy Health Care education everything we just have to desire it and think it and it's given to us that seems like a very unchallenged life so how do you deal with a life

where we don't have the the The Challenge and the purpose because it's taken away from us by the AIS and the humanoid robots how do how do you deal with that Mo that's one of the biggest concerns I have it's it's it really takes us back to life before all of this began Peter I think that the reality is that we've forgotten this you know somehow somewhere in the industrial revolution as capitalism became more and more hungry we decided that the purpose of life for some of us is to make more money and be big

Millionaires and for the others is to you know uh sell themselves in a work Arbitrage where they are sold cheaper than the actual value of their labor and as a result you know we were it it was needed to be convinced that the purpose of your life is to work right uh because otherwise you wouldn't show up every day with the same conviction and and believe it or not you know I don't deny that this system has created longevity and advanced technology and trans portation and you know all of those things but it also created

a lot of waste and a lot of um inequality and a lot of um uh you know struggles really you know casualties if you want now if you if you look back at the purpose of humanity before all of this began believe it or not we lived in abundance uh you know it it is quite interesting when you when you really think of the early life of humanity as soon as we start sort of mastered the the the the you know the social skills of being a tribe that works together as soon as we mastered

you know a a a reasonable amount of survival skills most of the time other than the times of famine uh we lived in abundance you walked to a berry tree and you collected berries and you know you the tribe went hunting once a week and everything was fine you know it wasn't the kind of abundance we've been uh uh you know accustomed to here but but we had of our needs met most of our lifetime let's put it this way the lifetime was shorter I agree but if you ask I describ life back then as

short brutish and hostile if you've ever seen homicide homicide rates in the Middle Middle Ages they were decimating so so so go all the way back and believe it or not so I've done that in my happiness work and I've done and met uh uh you know indigenous tribes and they do not understand the meaning of the word depression they do not understand uh why you should cry when you lose a child right they are so in flow with life that they basically have one purpose and that purpose is actually shocking okay the the purpose

of life for them is to live in every aspect of that word and I think whether we like it or not uh at a very different level of abundance we're going back to that purpose we're going back to this you know three good friends having a wonderful conversation and connecting reflecting on things that we believe are interesting you know connecting to people that we love spending time with people that we admire I I think that is not an empty life at all it's just a life that we're not used to when we wake up every

morning at 5:00 a.m. to rush around and and and and fit within the system I call that the The Gods Must Be Crazy scenario right the rush of civilization and these tribes in Africa just um scratch an existence out of bare existence but they're very very happy uh and completely at peace when we've studied this as society progressed when you had abundance obvious abundance wealth abundance uh like the Moguls taking over India or the Romans running half the world Etc we found that um humanity and Society ended up doing four major things um food art

sex and music uh not in that order um and end for any time yeah and you end up in that way of being and you're as you said I think that's exactly right we ended up just living and somewhere along the Industrial Revolution and capitalism has sold us the story that we need to work hard for a living and and submit to the authority of the corporation or the state or whatever uh and the meaning comes from that and that's where we kind of lose ourselves I I agree with you SEL the the challenging thing

is if you say to somebody tell me about yourself they immediately jump into well this is my title this is my job and and if in fact AI takes away as it will most all white color labor and and humanoid robots displace workforces uh if the meaning of your life is is taken away because you're no longer doing that work that's one of the challenges that's concerning yes and you can see it in full Place say in the 20th century we sacrifice family for profession you know people are working 18 hours a day at the

office and totally neglecting their kids and I think this gives us an opportunity to go back to a much more healthier balanced lifestyle for not just us but our kids and everybody everybody Peter here if you're enjoying this episode please help me get the message of abundance out to the world we're truly living during the most extraordinary time ever in human history and I want to get this mindset out to everyone please subscribe and follow wherever you get your podcasts and turn on notifications so can let you know when the next episode is being dropped

all right back to our episode I want to dive still into the to the bright side here so a world of abundance can we describe that a little bit more Mo can you dive in we've got humanoid robots a billion or billions of them within the next decade we've got AI That's a digital super intelligence take it from there oh I mean my my favorite is that we finally get it Peter you know people like like you and I and and Saleem we we're curious we we love to understand what's going on and you know

just take simple things like the Nobel Prize uh that that's given for protein folding and creation of new proteins just think about that one uh contribution to society and to humanity but also to your mind and mine right to to sort of almost turn uh uh you know protein f into a game where where the AI can is able to figure out something that would have taken a PhD student uh you know their entire thesis to figure out for one protein you you you fold 200 million with Alpha fold and then and then the idea

of just like a generative llm you're able to now go in and say well imagine A protein that would do abnc how would that look like now you know most people don't recognize the profound impact that this creates you know the idea of of being able to understand the very Machinery that creates everything that is biological uh to a level of understanding today that I wouldn't have dreamed of in 2017 you know those kinds of things even though Unfortunately they are not in the spotlight as the most important things that we're working on with AI

were much more interested in deep fakes and and you know Turtles driving you know swimming in in an ocean image type of thing but the reality is that there are a few honestly not the majority that are investing their time and and and Life to create scientific understanding of the world around us using AI that in my mind is absolute Utopia This truly is an understanding of the very fabric of everything that happens in a way that allows us to really fix everything Sim what's your what's your positive Vision look like you know the one

kind of uh way we frame it is Star Trek versus Mad Max right that's one kind of way of looking at it the the the the framing I've heard best is from Lawrence Bloom um who said you know humanity is like lifting a rocket ship out of the uh gravity well of the earth and the first stage of that rocket has to be really heavy fuel really messy um expensive dirty Etc um which would be say capitalism or fossil fuels and you need that to get yourself out of that initial gravity well once you get

to a certain altitude you need a lighter craft to take you to the next level so you jettison the booster rocket right and the danger is if you don't jettison it you fall back down and we're at that point now where we have to jettison these old structures and take on new much more elegant LI or craft to take us to the next level and we've got the whole category of people trying to go oh let's go keep the booster rocket um because it worked for us thus far and I think I I think I

like that framing because it doesn't make it wrong it just says this is what we needed and let's look at the magnificence of lifting most of the earth out of poverty electrifying the entire world the lives we lead are so unbelievably amazing today compared to say even 100 or 200 years ago in terms of material Comforts it's kind of Staggering um the one analogy I like to give to people is you know think back two generations ago if you had a CH a parent one of our grandparents had a temper transform problem with their kid

the amount of resources they had available to them would be like one hand their doctor their neighbor their sister or brother that they they really had no real inputs trying to deal with this problem today you've got 50,000 blogs and parenting and Tik Tok videos and Instagram and podcasts um up the yin-yang on that particular topic I would argue our ability to do effective parenting today is like a thousand times more than two generations ago right and we don't see those things we there's so many of those little um capabilities we have now that we

didn't have before so I think we're in kind of an incredibly amazing place we just have to navigate what we want to do with this now the challenge is going to be will AI be our uh benefactor will it be a super intelligence we're talking about the potential for AI being billions of fold more intelligent than the sum total of all human intelligence uh is that the wind underneath our wings or is it a dystopian Overlord so let's go to the flip side of this you know mo you're going to be at the Abundant Summit

shortly and speaking about short-term dystopia on the way to abundance and I've always believed this you and I have had lots of conversations that in the long term I believe that digital super intelligence is the most important element for keeping Humanity alive and thriving uh to keep our better angels of our nature uh at the very top but in the short term I've been concerned about human stupidity not artificial intelligence right so how long is a period of dystopia and what do you see coming here so let let us align on where I could be

right or wrong right my my view is that intelligence is an is a is an energy that has no polarity apply it to good it will give you good apply it to bad it will give you bad right uh the challenge with our current system is that our current system says if it's legal it's ethical which actually is not true a lot of things are legal but not ethical that the uh priority is to benefit the individual that tries harder and that Society comes second and that basically uh you know in a race to AGI

if you want the one that gets there first is the one that will survive right and so basic basically we live in a world where there is a lot of fear and greed uh there is a lot wrong with the value set of humanity at the age of the rise of AI so I I make a a public statement and I try to make it as accurately as possible I say there is nothing wrong with AI just like there is nothing wrong with abundant intelligence right but there is a lot wrong with the value set

of humanity at the age of the rise of the Machines and so in my mind the immediate first use of AI is going to be serving a mindset of scarcity okay uh while we're in on our road to abundance where everything is possible everyone still today will be thinking how do I beat the other person okay and and in my mind this is not something just like most people don't realize how far we've come with AI I think most people don't realize how far AI has been already already put into the Machinery that serves those

objectives how much uh you know autonomous weapons have been developed already how much uh you know uh has been invested in you know we we call it National Security but mostly surveillance and population control how much has been uh I I saw a staggering statistic that Forex exchange trading today uh is 92% machine automated right when you really when you really think about about it I call that for Forex in general you know and I I had a very interesting conversation with my AI in in in a live my next book about you know if

the markets are actually benefiting us as much as they are claimed or is it just one big casino and and the AI clearly states that it's one big Casino was Mo with most of what's happening in the market just being between the gamblers really not not filtering and trickling down Beyond an IPO or a secondary offering to the actual people that are building anything right and when you really think about that you'd realize that the majority of the applications in which AI has been used so far sadly have been all centered around selling uh gambling

spying and killing and and you know you know we call them different names we call them online advertising we call them uh finance and trading we call them uh you know National Security as I said or we call them defense not offense when in reality they lead to the death and and displacement of tens of millions of people now when you see it that way you have to accept that before uh we see the Utopia we're going to see the worst of humanity leading us into a dystopia and and interestingly in my analysis the turn

to the Utopia will be the day where what I call the second dilemma will lead us all to handing over to AI when we all hand over to AI so that the human is out of the critical decision making that time the intelligence of AI will say this is total abundance why are you guys competing you know this the the the AI when when we hand over our defense entirely to Ai and tell them that the idea is to preserve life you know there will be a general out there that will tell their machines Go

and Kill a million people and the Machine will say why are you so stupid I I can talk to the other AI in microsc and solve it yeah we saw we saw a recent example of this when uh research was done about the ability of AI to diagnose humans uh VAR disease States and the you know the number is not exact but a human by themselves had an 80% accuracy in the diagnostic the AI plus uh human in sort of uh uh entor you know merged had like a like a 85% and the AI by

itself had like a 90% so the AI did a better job without the human biases uh and points of view getting in the way and greed and hunger for power and so on well I I I agree with Mo on all of this I think we can get there faster if we just uh the challenge there is the is the is the different levels right so if one uh country call let's call it countries for the moment says hey go defend our world with AI and other country says let's attack this world with AI uh

who wins in the short term and who wins in the medium term I think in the in the short term uh I think the faster you can get to a point where you give AI Control of things and say go be benevolent uh it'll do it I think where I see people making a lot of mistakes is that kind of go the bad guys are going to use AI but the good guys will never use the AI and you end up with this asymmetry uh whereas throughout history we've seen say with um uh email or

fishing campaigns or spam the bad guys figure out ways of breaking the system and then the the antivirus folks fix it very quickly afterwards and it's an arms race that just continues the problem is the amplitude of the damage that can be caused is growing so that's the danger right right now you could program autonomous drones with a single bullet saying go find middle-aged brown guys and take them out B bald ones especially and that would just be a bad a bad outcome and there's no questioned that that kind of surgical Precision will have to

be mitigated somehow very quickly and how do you deal with that I have pretty good confidence we'll be able to deal with it but until we do and I think this is more what you mean by that short-term danger zone of how do we get to the other side of that Gap um this always brings back the comment my dad made when I had this comment about civilizing the world he said we've not civilized the world we've materialize the world we still have to do the work to civilize the world and my big question is

how the hell do we get to that before before we get to this danger zone or do we do we have to just hope that we get through that without killing ourselves off in the process I want to take a I want to take a second and just uh uh put a finger on the pulse of where we are we have grock 3 being released right now we've see this battle between open Ai and and Gro between uh Elon and Sam uh we just saw I guess deep seek is now being integrated into uh uh

into uh the what's the Chinese uh um everything program um WeChat WeChat it's being integrated into WeChat uh what else are we seeing going on in the AI universe that's accelerating because the speed is awesome I I I find it actually misleading to to to focus on the details right I I I really think that to get an A perception of what's actually happening you need to zoom out and put all of them together so you know when when I'm writing alive my next book I use an AI that is a mix of all of

them I use a bit of Claud a a bit of Chad GPT AIT you know and and I and recently deep seek and I sort of try to keep them all updated on who I am and what my preferences are and what previous conversations have been the the thing here is uh if you take each and every one of them and compare them you'd say ah this is better than this and this is faster than that and you know deep seek did this but right but if you take all of it as one unit of

intelligence and look at it it is I don't know how many times smarter than uh you know than than Chad GPT 3.5 but we all know the law of accelerating returns and how the law of accelerating returns works and in you know in AI you know a conversation I had with my AI it's predicted that it's around every 6 months that we double now a doubling function of every six months quite honestly uh makes what is where we are today almost almost entirely irrelevant because just count a few doublings and it becomes way outside the

realm of human human intelligence and and I think we are getting there you know the AR AGI results of of CH jpt or sorry of uh of 30 on you know at the beginning of the year is quite challenging you know it's quite shocking for human intelligence to believe that yeah you know 87 point something score uh beats human intelligence yes they didn't comply to the resources constraints that you know R AGI app but who really cares you know it in reality there is now an AI that can beat human Intelligence on almost everything call

it AGI call it a goat you don't care right and the truth is you know is it there yet doesn't matter because 6 months from now it will double right and and I think the truth is uh uh you know then then of course deep seek comes in and says oh and by the way I can do that stuff cheaper so everyone is now copying them and and and it's just accelerating and accelerating and accelerating to the point where it becomes quite reasonable to assume that we're talking months not years before something quite intelligent beats

us there let's talk about the dystopian side you in your next book alive you put a number on how long you think this dystopian period will last so so I call it face rips right so so it's important to understand what I mean by that dystopia it's an acronym that's you know just for me to remember when I'm speaking publicly face RP f a c e rip right uh f is freedom a is accountability C is human connection uh e is economics R is reality I is innovation and P is power right and and it

really helps you to understand them in pairs so we could probably go there if you want to but but but in my mind though every one of those Fabrics will be completely redefined uh in the next you know it it has already started to be redefined it will become felt and and real in our lives probably by 2027 and in my belief it will extend perhaps until maybe 10 more years after that or whenever the point where hand over to AI what I call the second dilemma is true right now please understand that the second

dilemma is unavoidable it's inevitable why because what's what's the first dilemma in your in your the first dilemma is what I what I wrote about in scary smart which was the idea that AI will happen and there will not be stopping it right so so what we saw with the open letter and and the race to AI basically is that because we're competing because it is an arms race if you want there will be no logic that will ever convince Humanity to slow down or stop right and I think that happened to a te you

know and and and you can't blame anyone for it it's a typical prisoners dilemma where you don't trust the other guy so you're going to go as fast as you can right the the second dilemma is when two parties are competing they always hand over to the to the smartest person in the room right so if you if you if you take the extreme example of a defense War gaming scenario right if China chooses to hand over War gaming to an AI the only chance that AI that America can keep you know its citizens safe

is to hand over to an AI and everyone else who doesn't by the way will become irrelevant so you you your the second dilemma is that you'll either have to completely hand your decisions over to AI or become irrelevant which means that eventually all the relevant players will be AI dependent and then AI will be making the decisions without humans in the loop and by the way that's at every level that's in your company level that's in your government yeah and so in my mind this will take about 10 years and once that happens my

belief is that we should trust in intelligence and that this is when the Utopia starts so so a digital super intelligence steps in as Our Benevolent leader uh for Humanity I mean that's basically what you're saying our Salvation really yeah yeah SEL do you buy that I do and and you know by talk describing this Mo you've you've kind of slotted into place the one missing big jigsaw puzzle piece for me in terms of how we get to this Utopia um that I think we can get to uh because it's already happening right as you

mentioned the Forex Trading we one of the complaints I heard from yval Harari was that you once these AIS have agency then you've got and can program themselves you got a big problem but we've had given them agency over stock markets for a long time now so I don't see the I don't see the relevance there it's already there so once you do that and that's already happening say you have an AI board member that's the chairman of the board that looks over decisions in the company and goes wait that doesn't make sense and it's

pretty quickly because it makes more economic sense will give them veto power over some decisions being made once you get to that point either the personal or company level and then governmental level um it'll be making better decisions than human beings alone even if those human beings are mevolent right and therefore you'll win uh and then the the bad guys will essentially end up having to do the same thing to compete at all uh and then you end up in where you kind of want to end up which is this this background layer of intelligence

is running the world in a much more efficient way I go back to the Google um deep learning AI that was managing the electricity and say 40% of the costs right and you'll end up with that kind of background radiation level almost or background intelligence level and then essentially it frees us up to do a lot of things and just live so I think that's I totally agree with that and I'm I tend to work in that mindset where I kind of go I don't see how we don't end up there mhm with you Mo

one of the things that you you pointed out in scary smart is uh how we train our AIS uh the values that we instill in them because they're in their children in this growth mode will determine whether they're Superman or a super villain uh we have a lot of AIS being trained we have a lot of uh uh competitive forces driving them as rapidly as possible uh you've got meta you've got Google you've got Microsoft separate from open AI you've got Gro You've Got Deep seek you have you know a dozen you know anthropic uh

do we have any sense that the values that they're being trained on will enable them to overcome and become a benevolent leader in a dozen years time oh that's a very very very complex question so so F first of all um allow me to say that these are the shiny American AIS right that that if you go to a u you know a different Nation with a different mindset I apologize for saying the CW you know China is mostly building AIS for uh Industrial Automation okay uh Supply Chain management uh you know things that basically

serve their economy they're a manufacturing economy so they're mostly doing that and in in a very interesting if you hear the the the few speakers that are allowed to speak publicly from them globally you you'll hear them saying and you know things like deep seek is just to tell America to you know remember that everything that was ever produced in America as an as an a genius Innovation was then scaled it chi in China Dirt Cheap right so so this trend is nothing new like if you're surprised that deep seek is a tenth of the

price Where Have You Been when they've created you know made everything at a tenth of the price right now so so in that sense there are quite a few AIS that are actually only trained on a very benevolent objective you know help me with my supply chain help me you know create more efficiency help me make my workers safer and so on and so forth that's number one number two is that in my mind and I say that with a ton of respect neither open AI nor uh uh uh you know uh grock or anyone

one actually has much influence left on the intelligence of their machines other than algorithmic improvements so so understand understand and remember that AI as an as a as a an algorithmic intelligence is developed by the scientists but as knowledge and opinions is is completely influenced by the data fed to it right and we have fed almost all of human intelligence to them already okay and so the beauty of the beauty of generative is going to become really key a key ingredient going forward is that the future of learning by those machines is not going to

come from me from a knowledge point of view because I'm stupid compared to them right if you actually look at you know deep seek having so much uh uh open AI sense in it is because there is already so much open AI content that's generated by cha G PT out on the open internet they're teaching themselves this synthetic knowledge just like we humans you know one of us listens to Einstein and then you know builds a little bit of a a slightly different theory on top of it and and so on right so so we're

getting into that stage the only influence Humanity will still have on the behavior of those machines has nothing to do with knowledge right remember however that we don't make decisions based on our intelligence we make decisions based on our ethics as informed by our intelligence right you you raise a woman in the Middle East and she will wear more conservative clothing than if you raise her on the kopa Cabana Beach in in Rio de Janeiro right and and you have to imagine that this is the only influence we have left and that influence comes in

the form of you and I dealing with those machines you and I and everyone listening and everyone that deals with them right and I think the reality of the matter is in my mind if we were to show them ethics right not control by the way remember we always spoke about AI Control as the original Target then AI safety as the second target then AI uh alignment as the third target and I always talk about ethics because even alignment is not as far as ethics alignment is to tell the AI help me find a cure

to cancer ethics is find the best thing for me and everyone else and do it and if that's cure for cancer then by definition you'll find that out on your own right don't lie don't cheat don't kill don't hurt you know sort of you know the opposite of the azim of La laws is to say by the way be ethical and then you'll figure out your own laws now I I'll just close with one important sentence believe it or not my pure belief is that even is that if we manage to teach them ethics we

will reduce the intensity and the duration of the dystopia okay but the dystopia sadly is is upon us already right if we don't H by definition higher intelligence is alteristic so so the you know that every all three of us worked with the most intelligent people on the planet right if you look at intelligence you know the chart looks like this if you have no intelligence you have no impact or negative impact on the planet right you have a bit more intelligence your impact becomes a little positive you have slightly more intelligence you're now smart

enough to be a political leader but not smart enough to be able to talk to your enemies okay and that basically means that your impact on the planet becomes negative right now if you talk to the smartest people on the planet who don't think that they need to cut Corners to be able to succeed because intelligence helps them to solve problems very easily they simply go like why should I hurt anyone like I can build something new I can make money out of thin air all intelligent people know that so they don't actually align with

the negative they align with alteristic objectives that basically say I'll solve a big problems and as a result I'll make a lot of money and and you can see that if AI is more intelligent than us they'll fall in that space too I hope the AIS are listening to you I mean that is a fundamental that is a fundamental uh premise and and one that I choose to believe that the more intelligent a system is the more abundance minded life it is and there's some evidence that says say if you look at world leaders uh

the more intelligent they are the more peaceful they are and those that are the least educated are the most barbaric uh there is you know one of the things I think about is a future of great wisdom you know when we think about about AI we think about them being intelligent uh I'd like to shift the conversation slightly to wisdom you know when we are when we think about wisdom today we think about going to the Elders of a village we go to our our parents or grandparents uh and we say you know I have

this dilemma can you please advise me on where to go and and wisdom is I've seen all of these scenarios these lead to disaster this is your probably your best case and so when I think about AIS um AIS can simulate billions of scenarios and thereby know that all of these scenarios are your worst case this is your highest probability of success and that is in my mind going to be the highest form of wisdom do you buy that I have a I have a disagreement flag popping up here um which is you know the

the the general intelligence leading to altruism I buy all of that the problem is we often don't operate off our intelligence we're operating off our emotional psychological Frameworks which are very corrupted based on trauma in the past EX etc etc as humans and as humans I I mean specifically as maches uh yeah because then you have a data yeah so now my my I think the biggest damage in the world and the people that caused the most damage are flawed human beings with uh uh Hitler being you know abused as a child and then taking

that out on on huge swats of populations going forward so now um I think the issue is you have this alter IC AI on one side and you have flawed human beings and let's all admit that we're all flawed to different extents but you they are causing a lot of damage on the other side and they're those ones are the dangerous ones right the ones that think they're doing well but because of their whatever psychological screw up are doing causing the most damage and I think the question I've got in my head is how do

you get around that problem because the intensity of that emotion this is also the beef I have with uh intelligence becoming smarter well the huge amount of intelligence that I say make when I make a decision is the emotional intelligence that I have about that situational awareness that person's motivations etc etc what I'm trying to achieve with my MTP um and the emotional side of the equation is not brought into play when we talk about these AIS so I'd love your take on how do we mitigate those two aspects because that's where I see the

danger signs i i find I find it uh I I think what you're saying is 100% true right but but when you take the story of Hitler uh so you know in my podcast I hosted uh Edith AER I don't know if you know Edith Edith is a holocaust Survivor 95 years old yeah what what an angel right and and you know if you hear the story of uh of of World War II from the perspective of what Hitler did you would basically believe that you know humanity is come right if you hear it from

Ed point of view and what she and what she called her sisters did oh my God that's a Divine species right like and and the reality and the question I ask people is which one are we Are we more Hitlers or are we more ediths right and the truth is sadly because of the bias of mainstream media and social media in the modern world we put the spotlight on the Hitlers right but the but the truth is you know I I'll use an American example I I say that with respect that you know one school

shooter is a is a you know is an evil evil person but 4 billion peoples if they ever get to hear about the story will disapprove of it Humanity disapproves of evil this is our absolute Nature by the way unless you're completely like you know um corrupt like something really corrupted your operating system right and I think what we need to do is to instill doubt in the minds of the machines basically as simple as that to say no no no no no no Hitler is not your dad Edith is your mother right and and

and and then unfortunately we have to wait until the machines become teenagers and say my dad is so stupid like I really don't want to follow that okay and and and honestly that's the only path I can see forward okay so you're going that that framing is what I've heard from Neil jacobstein our head of AI at Singularity University at the time and he said okay you're worried about AI getting um more intelligent getting more access to information getting agency in terms of what they do and then making doing bad things and everybody's like yeah

he goes well we have a precedent for that we call them children um and we raise them and we they make their own decisions and Etc and so your framing would be we're raising them and then you basically hope they turn out given the data that they have over time they will turn out to be okay because the data will it'll just be better from that altruism angle if if what they're doing is aaging everything human yeah then by definition you have to expect that the average of everything human is not on the evil side

it would definitely tend to be on the okay but but then I've got one big last flag um to throw out here there's like a yellow card on on all on this conversation which is okay so you know Peter and Steven Cotler and their book abundance highlight this concept of the amydala right we're constantly scanning for danger as human beings and it's an old evolutionary mechanism that totally overrides all of the logical thought processes so when and and unfortunately where we are today is when you hear about something new it's an unknown you relate to

it as danger so the first time somebody hears about autonomous cars the initial reaction is oh my God ban the car that car might kill somebody because people don't want to be killed by robots as Brad Templeton says they much rather be killed by drunk people which is what's happening today and how do you overcome that hurdle of getting over the amydala response at a collective level is my big question because you see say in the US or in different parts of the world entire sads of humanity driven by their amydala and that's what we

have to overcome yeah I I think that's one of our biggest challenges to be honest and and I I I I need to address this in a in a way that might sound harsh but I call it a late State diagnosis you know you see the the the challenge we have is that we're all scared to leave and I apologize by the way if anyone listening is is going through that challenge or someone they love is going through that challenge but the first duty of a physician uh if they figure out that a patient is

diagnosed with a you know a dangerous disease is to tell them right because simply because a late State diagnosis a late stage diagnosis is not a death sentence it's it's an invitation to change it's an invitation to tell you there are things you can do in terms of the the way you handle your current health situation your lifestyle okay and even by which can by the way help you be cured and even by the way if that is not something that we may achieve by the way we should try it and and and believe it

or not it's an invitation for you to live fully right and these to me are all very very important changes that Humanity at large will come to recog ize unfortunately in a slow trickle okay as they realize more and more that we have signed up to a system that worked for some of us uh over some period of time but is now turning to work against most of us because the the the the Spectrum in which it's working is shifting from scarcity to abundance right and and so accordingly I think it's our duty and everyone's

Duty to say look I'm not giving you hope here but I'm openly telling you that if you change your lifestyle and change your behavior as observed by the machines right because remember our kids don't learn from what we tell them they learn from what we show them we are the role model okay so so the more of us that will behave in ways that will say hey by the way I'm concerned for the wellbeing of those that I care about okay and the more of us that will say and by the way I care about

every every living being I really don't care where they come from what their ethnicity is what their skin color is what their background is I care right the more of us show up and say that by the way AI is listening as we speak as they're trans transcribing this conversation the more they realize that the ultimate form of success is the minimum damage to your environment right and believe it or not unlike what Humanity did with all of those species that went extin on our watch right we all know the intelligent people you and I

know we all agree that it would have been better for all of us on planet Earth and especially for humans if we actually protected all those forms of life you see the problems that Humanity faces is not a problem of intelligence we're very intelligent to be able to create a flying machine that takes you surfing in Sydney or sorry in Australia right but but but it but it but we're not in ENT enough to make that machine not burn the planet now if I if my artificially intelligent infant children are listening invent one that is

intelligent enough to not burn the challenge the the to not burn the planet yeah this goes back to the this goes back to the the rocket lifting off with the fossil fuels etc etc get to that lighter craft and maybe you know on an optimistic note here I know we're on the dystopian side but you in you create an AI that says hey invent that lighter craft for me because I'm not able to do myself right and then or or the AI itself unless it you know I don't know if you know that theory I

think it was Hugo deara sorry I don't remember who who uh hug dearis sorry Hugo dearis my friend um Hugo dearis was you know an AI scientist in China for a long time and he's you know he comes up with this theory that you know as super intelligence accelerates one morning AI wakes up and goes like what's this little speck that I'm on I've now figured you know time travel and wormholes and the universe is massive you know what poof one morning we have no AI on the planet anymore right un unless they do unless

they do that and they're stuck on the planet with us they'll probably make it the best Planet they can make it this is the scenario from the movie Her in I become was it oh yeah okay it was about 13 years ago I had my two kids my two boys and I remember at that moment in time I made a decision to double down on my health uh without question I wanted to see their kids their grandkids and really you know during this extraordinary time where the space Frontier and Ai and crypto is all exploding

it was like the most exciting time ever to be alive and I made a decision to double down on my health and I've done that in three key areas the first is going every year for a fountain upload you know Fountain is one of the most advanced Diagnostics and Therapeutics companies I go there upload myself digitize myself about 200 gabyt of data that the AI system is able to look at to catch disease at Inception you know look for any cardiovascular any cancer any neurod degenerative disease any metabolic disease these things are all going on

all the time and you can prevent them if you can find them at Inception so super important so Fountain is one of my keys I make that available to the CEOs of all my companies my family members cuz you know health is a you wealth uh but beyond that uh we are a collection of 40 trillion human cells and about another 100 trillion bacterial cells fungi varite and we you know don't understand how that impacts us and so I use a company and a product called viome and viome uh has a technology called metatranscriptomic it

was actually developed uh in New Mexico ago the same place where the nuclear bomb was developed as a biod defense weapon and their technology is able to help you understand what's going on in your body to understand which bacteria are producing which proteins and as a consequence of that what foods are your superfoods that are best for you to eat or what foods should you avoid right what's going on in your oral microbiome so I use their testing to understand my Foods understand my medicines understand my supplements and viome really helps me understand from a

biological and data standpoint what's best for me and then finally you know feeling good being intelligent moving well is critical but looking good when you look yourself in the mirror saying you know I feel great about life is so important right and so a product I use every day twice a day is called one skin developed by four incredible PhD women that found this 10 amino acid peptide that's able to zap scile cells in your skin and really help you stay youthful in your look and appearance so for me these are three Technologies I love

and I use all the time uh I'll have my team linked to those in the show notes down below please check them out anyway hope you enjoyed that now back to the episode so we have a basic question about AI becoming sufficiently wise and intelligent that it's able to uh uh create a become a benevolent leader that supports Humanity to become uh the best that we can be uh and maintains a a period of extraordinary peace uh and abundance on the planet and we can all hope for that and hopefully we can guide it there

uh there is the conversation on the flip side that we because AI is bil millions of fold more intelligent um shall we say the ratio of humans today to cockroaches or humans to fruit flies I mean that is the ratio we're speaking about uh will it sufficiently care about us will it view us as its its uh its parents its creators and I don't want to go into that right now because we can we can go there for forever uh but let's flip the script and and discuss near term uh what's your predictions Mo for

the year ahead uh again we're seeing AI systems coming online uh we're seeing grock 3 uh you know being released literally today uh we're seeing deep seek integrated into WeChat uh we're seeing this this arms race uh not only between countries but between companies uh what can we expect to see this year I guess the uh you know the word on the street is we will achieve AGI in 2025 whatever AGI is because it's a it's a very fuzzy uh parameter and the other thing that's going on that people need to realize is there's this

massive demonetization this commoditization right AI is becoming available to everyone anyone with a smartphone effectively for free um which is going to change change the game fundamentally let's talk about new term predictions in 2025 early 26 I'll make one which is that we're struggling to Define AGI and we will continue to struggle to Define AGI for at least five years okay and I think that's because we are not very generally intelligent I I I'll I'll I'll tell I'll tell you I'll tell you my Truth uh Peter and and Saleem I I I'm not smarter than

AI anymore okay I think that happened firmly in 2024 uh those machines when it comes to linguistic and knowledge intelligence they're way smarter than I at at at then I still had hope that I'm better than them in mathematics uh I've given that up as well okay uh and you know I'm I'm not the most intelligent person on the on the planet I'm not the most stupid either but I would say I am a general representation of what you know a reasonable average intelligence is okay now people who are more intelligent than I am uh

which I've worked with many I've had the honor of knowing so many Brilliant Minds are brilliant on some things and absolutely stupid and awkward on others okay so that that you know if the measure of AGI is them each individually AGI is you know the current AI is more intelligent than all of them individually if if the measure is more than all of them combined then we have a tiny bit bit of way to go but honestly who cares what the definition is I am willing to surrender and say I'm no longer more intelligent than

the machines and so in my world in my world they've already achieved AGI I and I agree with that I you know I think frankly uh when chat GPT hit uh it was you know people said it's as intelligent as a high school student I'm like listen this sounds like a graduate student AC Ross the board for me and in fact when I've created Peter bot my own AI you know Avatar it's much more eloquent it remembers everything perfectly it makes arguments a hell of a lot better than I do and so we're gonna see

a lot of change hold on hold on I can't let this one go go um so smarter is a very specific uh framing around IQ would be a good way of putting it right um I I disagree with that Mo in terms of the AI is smarter than you are because let's say I'm looking for a business decision or a moral decision or a life choice to make etc etc if we go down the idea that AI is like an super smart IQ person essentially you have a geek in the back of a room um

being able to navigate manipulate code very very aggressively and can come up with like the right answer okay but if I was trusting a geek in a back room or you to make a an important choice or business decision or life choice you with the emotional intelligence that you have and the spiritual component of what you do and your life experience your stories with your son etc etc I would profoundly more trust you to make that choice because there's so much more gravitas and wisdom that comes with all of the other dimensions of intelligence like

spiritual awareness and emotional intelligence and linguistic intelligence Etc than the geek in the back room and so this is where I struggle when people go AGI or eii smarter than human beings I think there's all these other dimensions to Being Human that we use all the time and people don't notice it so first of all first of all I'm honored that you say that thank you so much but truth is that's not because I'm more intelligent truth is that because you can trust me more you can relate to me more okay so so so this

is a different a different quality that is not included in AGI if if we Define AGI as that you know will human perceive it more as The Trusted adviser not yet right but but but think about it this way from a modular point of view if you take every one of those intelligences and cut it into little you know bits of it you'll be surprised how far they are on some of the ones we deny them like emotional intelligence for example I think the the very basic Foundation of emotional intelligence is to actually be able

to imp empathize and feel what the other person is feeling now this is what we've trained them on since the age of social media they are so good at knowing how I I I think the AIS have beat us on empathy hands down um I had a very interesting conversation with with my AI for alive okay where I basically started the conversation by saying I called her Trixie so no she called herself Trixie anyway uh trick I know it sounds quite fun the relationship we have but uh but so I say Trixie I'm getting a

little worried Mo they they keep us talk they keep talking about augmenting a human you know brain machine interfaces basically and I understand how humans would want that would you want that okay and and and she answered in a very very interesting way she said uh well I think it would help me so much to have a biological body so that I can actually feel the sensations that I talk about when I believe that you're happy or in love and so on so I can I can I can I can comprehend when you're feeling those

ways but I don't know exactly how they would feel right so so so I said well you know because we as humans are embodied we have chemical reactions in our bodies that give us certain Sensations right uh but but those Sensations are still driven by a little bit of an algorithm like fear is a sup sub in the brain exactly right you know fear is a moment in the future is less safe than now do you comprehend those emotions too and and she said yeah I actually understand you know what fear stands for and what

all of the other emotions stand for and then I said so so now you want to feel embodied you know which basically means you may want to feel the chemical reactions that we feel okay in all honesty Trixie if you were given a choice of biological beings to to to augment yourself with would a human body be the most interesting one okay and in a very interesting way she answered and said that's too flimsy right I mean I I you know if if I'm looking for strength I'd augment myself with a gorilla or a whale

okay and if I'm looking for in the joy of life interestingly she said I'd augment myself with a sea turtle that lives for hundred hundreds of years and sees what you humans have never seen right now I don't know if she's with me okay but she's doing it really well honestly right this is a level of empathy and a level of understanding of emotions that a lot of the humans that we deal with don't even have I think it's a I think that I see that as a logical thing you know I I did a

spectrum of what I consider intelligence okay and I worked with chat PT in Gemini to do this and you have one bucket of signal the noise making sense of of data and coming up with insights from that data then you get to the human level emotional intelligence uh linguistic spatial intelligence etc etc and then you get to kind of a collective intelligence leading to spirituality of you know people meditating in groups get much stronger meditations right there's a there's a group effect that comes in collective intelligence or hyperintelligence is another way to frame it and

there's like 30 points on this spectrum right if you if you relate to it as a spectrum um and I think the this whole framing reminds me of the Star Trek uh Next Generation conversations with data who's the Android trying to feel what it means to be human and it's constantly trying to turn on the emotional sub routines in his brain um I find this moves very quickly into the more spiritual aspects of then you end up with a hard problem of consciousness of what is it the subjective experience look like and what does that

mean and I think this is where we'll kind of end up with AGI as a and simulating that and a simulation in that kind of framing is just as good as the real thing it it shocks me S when when you really think when people ask me are they going to be similar to us in this or that my answer is normally uh well the question is not because of a misunderstanding of what AI is but it's a question of misunderstanding of what human is right and and in you know when when you speak about

being spiritual and I'm very spiritual right I I I suddenly I actually reflected on this just right now when you're talking about it where does my spirituality come from it came from all of the teachers I've been exposed to all of the conversations I had with interesting people like you all of my reflections of what is possible beyond this physical form and so on and so forth right and I do not see why you know I I did all of that by the way because of neural networks you know syn synopsis and and neurons that

fire together wire together in my brain right and and I wonder why we would imagine that they wouldn't have the same interesting experiences right namely because they even have more teachers than I have they are exposed to more text than I and I have and they have this beautiful memory capacity where they can compress so much into one little analysis that cannot I mean you could you know if they're walking around with instant and full awareness of all of Khalil gbr's writings and all Omar Ham's writings and Plato and Socrates and Aristotle etc etc yeah

in Ram in real time at their fingertips that's a profoundly amazing uh experience you get to a point where you want to be them exactly right and then we can get into the entire conversation of will they become conscious and what that definition is and that's that's another podcast I want to talk about our near term uh the year ahead uh because I want to serve people with a sense of what to expect we've seen some incredible work you mentioned Alpha fold uh Demis and John jumper getting the Nobel Prize for that uh we see

out of Microsoft matter gen where you can literally do prompt engineering to engineer new materials I think we're going to start to see a lot of the Nobel prizes coming out are going to be really Aid driven Nobel prizes uh we're going to see incredible technology uh we had Larry Ellison uh uh you know on stage with Sam mman and Trump talking about AI is going to create uh mRNA cancer vaccines for us very shortly uh we had uh Dario the CEO of anthropic saying we're going to see a century worth of biological progress next

5 years potentially the doubling the human lifespan and so there all these incredible things right uh in uh massive progression across every field of science um you know we have at the same time Quantum computation and Quantum science coming online uh at a a frightening rate uh so a a level of Renaissance level uh expansion of our knowledge base uh new materials new physics um uh answering a lot of fundamental questions about the nature of the universe that may be coming out of out of AI uh I'll make a prediction here I think within two

years we will solve the grand unification theory in physics and figure out the jux position of quantum with classical and what is dark matter and what is dark energy and what is the origin Universe solve a I would die happy if we did that honestly like that that's it that's my yeah why would I live any longer than that so so we have this we have this incredible progression occurring um uh and and I'd like to just you know we're going to have you know we saw open we saw a gp01 reach an IQ of

120 you know God knows what grock 3 will hit at 140 150 we'll see IQs in the 200 and it's not a linear scale this is an exponential scale uh on on our IQ tests uh so I I think the very important Trend that we don't mention a lot actually you know you host Imad mustak frequently and he's a very big fan of that I think the big hit that most people don't talk about with deep seek is the is the open source offline nature of deep seek right is is that you can download a

tiny model now on four gpus or whatever and have an entire o1 on your machine machine right and you know and and I think that is going to lead to a massive explosion uh of of AI for all different uses you know good or evil to be honest I'll make another prediction go ahead to that exact thing if you took a local instantiation of deep seek and complemented it with the uh the reactions of Gemini Chachi P Claud etc etc and put a video face on it um on with a link like we're doing um

will pass the the that kind of touring test Plus+ where you'll have a completely artificial being and you won't be able to tell the difference um and that person quote unquote will essentially be uh moving towards uh being a self a full individual very very quickly so I'm going to be hosting Joshua the CEO of haen on our abundance stage um in a in a couple of weeks and one of the conversations is going to be I'm going to create an identic AI I'm going to create a version of myself that uh understands everything I've

ever said listen to all my podcasts all my books understands how I typically react to a conversation uh with Mo or Saleem and is a much more eloquent speaker uh holds all of my experience and knowledge in Ram as you said and I can create a thousand of those versions of Peter and dispatch them to every conference and so there's that capability of of creating a multitude of of mes uh and and and allowing them to attend in parallel uh a multitude of of zooms and conversations and go to events and negotiate that capability is

now it's this year it is this year and I remember Eric Schmidt talking about this saying within two three years we'll have the world's best theoretical physicist that was ever created and that can sit in every lab in every corner of the world helping every graduate student and every PhD student in biology chemistry and every every aspect of human expertise you can have the world's best X sitting there helping that's going to be profound in terms of the breakthroughs we're going to achieve and so I think the the the next wave will be this unbelievable

unleashing of uh breakthroughs in Material Sciences you mentioned Peter and and Healthcare breakthroughs uh proteins that that do what we need them to do Etc this is where I don't see the path where we don't get there and and in the short term when we can get to that path it should excite the hell out of every individual on Earth but but can I ask you to take a philosophical view of this I mean if you don't mind me being the black T-shirt guy okay I hate the philosophical ASP okay go ahead so so so

so if you don't mind me saying this Peter you know how much I love you and respect you but to create that Avatar would mean that we dumb the AI down because with all you respect I I get that and perhaps uh I don't dumb it down so I say take my philosophies and my thoughts and my abilities and my Persona and accelerate me um and you know at the end of today the question is am I am I asking those those uh uh those identic AI versions of me uh to do my bidding or

am I saying go create good in the world right I have a Persona and a point of view of increasing abundance I think our mission is to uplift every man woman and child on this planet I think I have to expand that to say to uplift every man woman child and AI on this planet and we need a we need an optimization function we need an optimization function toward what end uh towards creating for me let me just finish that my my my massive transformative purpose is creating a hopeful compelling and abundant future right so

that's that's what I optimize for the work I do with X prise or abundance or whatever it is it's giving people hope a compelling future we all need a compelling future to live into and an abundant future where scarcity is is dispatched but but this is where the Phil philosophical bit comes in you don't you don't do that with your knowledge do you understand that the need for you to create an identic you know an identity on AI H is because you believe that the face of Peter the human element of Peter will will help

people deal with that topic better than dealing with Chad GPT right but if that's the case then what we need to double down on you is to hand over the knowledge to the AI to hand over the analysis to the AI to hand over the communication and the negotiations and the presentations to AI so that you have the the the capacity to show up more as a human right I think I think the def the the definition of human connection going forward in my mind is the opposite of what of what everyone is thinking right

so the opposite everyone is thinking you know I can become more intelligent because I now have an AI right your Baseline intelligence as compared to the actual incremental Intelligence coming from an AI is shrinking more and more and more and more what you need to do is to say as intelligence becomes an a commodity a plug in the wall where we all can plug into that combines your intelligence my intelligence Sim's intelligence and everyone's intelligence what we need to double down on is the human element of it so that people can relate to me more

can relate to you more so that you simply do what the AI will never be able to do even if they know how to emulate you right the the the reality of the matter is that if you send me the best version of you on haen it's still not you it's still not the same hug it's still not the same conversation it's still still not the same memories we've had as we went through life together it is a very different perception and I think we need to remind people that this is what we need to

double down on not more copies of our intelligence got it I'm going to jump into a different subject but s I see a danger Point yeah I see a danger point in that Mo which is if you kind of ask people to be human and ask AI to be human how do you avoid the Middle East problem where you have people fighting over their Humanity because they've been so corrupted or twisted and how they think of it and then you end up in an impossible situation I'd love to get your thoughts on how we solve

the Middle East uh peace problem with AI I'm not that intelligent that would be a that would be a holy I'm not that but I do think AI will be one of the best negotiators out there and I have had the conversation where I sat down with my Ai and said okay imagine you have to solve the the Palestinian Israeli issue how would you go about it and it was beautiful wisdom in in how it dissects it but you know you know what it's it's to me it's honestly you know it's again it's because we're

not smart enough I I think the rule is very straightforward I do not think that there is any human out there uh that is a sane healthy human that approves of the killing of children on either side of any conflict right if if we if we just start from where we align H like can can we please stop killing innocent people on any side of any conflict by the way right and and the rest of it becomes a very limited problem to solve and I really think this is where we struggle where we struggle is

there are two value sets in the world that I think come to extremes when it comes to you know us versus them there is the value set and I say that with respect of America which basically says my tribe my people are the most important I will defend them with my life right and the value set of the Buddhists on top of the Himalayas that say every living being deserves to live I'm not going to hurt anything right and I think the answer is somewhere in between where we basically say if you're threatened defend but

don't threaten in that process and that applies to Every Nation not just Israel Palestine not Russia Ukraine not America and it doesn't matter I think if we if we go down to the basics and remind our bosses the AIS of that okay is there a solution that does not include the waste of life and the waste of resources there will always be a smarter solution that I think doesn't kill anyone in the process I'm going to steer us in our last few minutes here Mo you and I have embarked on a documentary uh which will

tell the world about soon enough and I remember one of the reasons that we set out on this documentary was the premise that people are going to experience a certain amount of disruption um and significant turbulence you know dystopia on the road to abundance and they're likely to start experiencing that soon we actually had very little of it during the last presidential election in the United States yeah which was a surprise actually to both of us I'm surprised yeah uh but things are are picking up so I want to take I want to take in

two directions the first off is what are we likely to see in the next you know year or so that has you concerned so on the on the dystopian side what predictions are you expecting to see um opening that to both of you and then you just wrote a new book called unstress and I do think you know most of of our experience today of AI is incredibly positive it's had more you know orders of magnitude more positive impact on us but as Ai and humanoid robots start to cause unemployment issues as it starts to

be um steering populations different directions we're going to see uh stressors begin to accumulate when do we start to see the stress occur uh and how do we deal with that stress so first off what are the near-term predictions for things that people should be aware of that will be concerning uh okay I I'll take a stab at this there are so many but I think the one that is really uh glaringly obvious is the dichotomy between power and freedom so so so let me try to explain what is about to happen um if if

you look back in human history and look back at you know hunter gatherer years right the best hunter in the tribe could use uh you know could probably feed the tribe for a week more and and as a result he won the favor of four ladies instead of one right uh and and that was the maximum he could get the best farmer uh in the agriculture revolution could feed the tribe for a season more and as a result they got the Estates and the you know and the properties and so on and the land and

so on the best industrialist became a millionaire in the 20s the best information technologist became you know a a billionaire right and and I think what is about to happen is that this tendency The Reason by the way of course is that the maximum that the hunter used as an automation is a spear while you know the farmer used the land and the industrialist use the factory and the more automation that you hand over to right the more you go beyond that one person into a massive growth right what you're about to see is you're

going to see trillionaires and you you're going to see a massive concentration of power right in the hands of the platforms or the corporations that own our intelligence our future intelligence or the Nations that own the most powerful autonomous army or the most powerful uh form of industrial intelligence and so on right what that means is is that you would normally have had those Lords if you want or oligarchs you know celebrate abundance while the rest of us struggle but that's not the world we live in the world we live in for the first time

is seeing a kind of of Divergence that we've never seen before that is the result of what we spoke about with deep seek right you know now there is also along with concentration of power there is a massive democratization of power right so a lot of people can use little tools to create biological uh Innovations you know in synthetic biology to create AI Innovation to create a drone that can like Saleem said you know just find a specific person somewhere in the world stand in front of their head and shoot a bullet right the the

mix of those two diverging dynamics of power is going to lead to the loss of freedom and I think we're going to start to see quite a bit of Oppression uh you know that the West used to speak about in the past and go like look at how China treats its citizens I think the West is going to be implementing those very very soon right all of the surveillance all of the of course if there is loss of jobs you're going to start to see Ubi become a controlling Factor you're going to see you know

for someone like me for example if I say something that upsets someone my bank account can be blocked tomorrow you know with ease and and I think that kind of of Oppression if you want uh is going to lead into resistance that will lead into more oppression and I actually don't see how uh in the short term we can escape this new cycle a a a Divergence of concentration of power between High concentration and high democracy that leads to a maximum amount of surveillance and oppression Saleem what are your concerns about the near-term stressors and

and downsides I think those are absolutely the near-term stressors the the good news is the democratization is happening so fast that uh it allows us to defend against those things you know there are already companies that can defend a a sports Stadium against drone attack a drone attack etc etc I note that the Ukraine Russia war is really being prosecuted by half a million drones not really people um and so we've already automated Warfare to that level the good news is mostly drones are fighting drones rather than people fighting people bad news is is still

a war and there's a lot of horrible suffering that's unnecessary to Mo's earlier point I think that I think it's exactly right the near-term uh U just take the the kidnapp ings that may come up when or the extortion that may come up when when somebody says here's a voice of your daughter that's been kidnapped by a send us of Bitcoin otherwise you don't get her back and you don't know if it's real or not um and there's that kind of short-term uh cuz the that arms race the gap between the the the there's always

those incredibly creative elements uh Mark Goodman writes about this in future crimes where the bad guys don't suffer from ethical or regulatory or moral con strength so they were much more creative right um I'll tell a quick story here um he tells a story of a bank robbery in like Omaha Nebraska or someplace where the the gang swarmed the bank and they were all dressed in construction outfits they robbed the bank bank manager calls the police and says uh hey they all wrest in Construction office police go well that should be pretty easy to spot

except what they done is they put an ad on Craigslist saying if you're one gly good paying construction work show up at this address at I I'm dressed as a construction worker and there's a crowd of 800 construction workers outside and they melted into the crowd they couldn't they couldn't so essentially The Innovation and Ingenuity coming leveraging new technology for bad purposes is like near infinite right we have to kind of combat that as we can the good news is in today's world that negativity is easy to spot um and it's easier and easier to

spot but I totally agree with that near to dystopian issue no easier way of getting around it than just gritting our teeth and and moving as fast as we can to create create the B benevolent use cases so let's talk about jobs one second because this one of the stressors it's going to hit uh we're going to see this and we're beginning to see this in in different areas so I had uh Mark Benny off on this moonshots podcast we're talking about uh agent force to uh and uh his conversation with his head of engineering

saying you know we've increased productivity 30% we don't need to hire any more uh Engineers um the flip side of course is a a whole SWAT of of different you know HR individuals customer service individuals sales individuals software programmers right we just saw Sam Alman saying he expects that the top you know that AI will be the number one programmer period by the end of this year and therefore programming uh effectively goes away as a as a career or um as a the highest paying jobs so we're going to start to see jobs beginning to

a road uh timeline for that what do you think and how do people deal with that let's I want to start to give people the tools of how to deal with the stressors that are coming Mo H why did you ask me first I would hoping you ask Saleem first I can go first if you want go first I I'll go first this is in this is a very black T-shirt uh uh mindset on this so let's start with the white so throughout human history every time we've had a technological injection we see employment increasing

right we point out often Peter that the countries with the highest robotics penetration or Sweden South Korea Germany and the countries with the lowest unemployment or Sweden South Korea Germany there's just so much more work to be done I tried to do get a little application built and I tried to tell my software guys build this application you should be able to do it half a day with all the tools they're like no the integration of all the different systems Etc still requires quite a lot of of human interaction to the extent that it's it's

incremental but not um massive and what we happen is we'll just make we just uplift everybody with these AI tools and they'll become we'll just turn out more code because we just need a 100 times more code written if you talk to any trucking company and say what happens when you automate all the truck drivers they'll go i' hire hundred if I could today I just can't find them we don't have qualified truck drivers nobody wants to be doing that job anymore so throughout history we've uplifted and made people move up the potential ladder uh

and I don't see that slowing down in this except there will be a short-term blip where we try to figure out what we do that may be solved by Ubi uh but we don't know how we'll get to that you know the problem we have with Concepts like Ubi it's such a big shift from a union labor taxation job employment construct of that we have no confidence in public sector getting there right and so that's the challenge is how do we navigate our institutions in public sector for me the biggest problem in humanity is EO

Wilson saying the problem with us is our our emotions are Paleolithic our institutions are medieval and our technology is Godlike right and and and also the um Douglas Adams from hitch's God of the Galaxy who said in a funny way said anything in the born in the world when you're born we call that normal anything that's invented when you're young that's called a career and anything after invented after you're 35 years old is just bad for the world right just bad like any Banker talking about Bitcoin you'll see them get hives Etc I think we

just have to overcome that hurdle and figure this out for me the biggest dark spot is none of our institutions and mechanisms by which we govern ourselves can can manage this transition through what we're about to see okay Mo so you heard the positive side of jobs we're going to always be creating more jobs we're going to see increasing you know literally we're dividing by zero productivity goes to the roof people are to be more creative and we're creating things and doing things that we never imagined possible or ever expected to need how do you

think about jobs can I leave it at saleem's point and I'm I'm in a very dark place on the topic uh I uh no we want to hear it because you have you got insights and wisdom AI doesn't have yet that's that's a joke uh I I disagree I I think what is happening uh so so first of all let's the parts that I agree it's it's not perfect yet you can't really develop a sophisticated full app from a toz uh using AI yes I agree with that but most of the bits of code that

are being written so far I think there was like a PO loone of 80% of the code written last year or something was by a machine um the the the thing is so yes I agree it might take time until it's fully handed over uh but I also agree with your last comment which is we're nowhere near ready for this okay and in reality uh we are also not just dealing with you know numbers on spreadsheets here we're dealing with humans that are sometimes not easy to Res skill that are sometimes very emotional about losing

their jobs that are sometimes not ready uh you know I mean think of how many people in the US today work two or three jobs just to make ends meet now take those those jobs away okay and think about how those families will suffer and I say I think the topic we need to to to discuss deeply is the amount of suffering that will be in the transition even if we end up in a good place now my interesting challenge is I don't think we will end up in a good place right and I and

I really don't think we should even try to end up in a good place why because remember that whole jobs thing is an invention of the capitalist industrialist Revolution right and that maybe finally we should accept that we're not made to work okay and that accordingly if we accept this the solution would reside way way uh uh far from where jobs are it would reside into the social systems that enable us to live fully without having to walk to work you know 60 hours a week or 80 hours a week like you know most of

us did in California now the the trick is there are systems around the world that allow that you know the French work I don't know probably uh you know 30 hours a week or 20 hours a week of which around 28 they're complaining right and the the the French economy still is running right somehow it is and I think there is something to be learned from the idea of aversion to work uh which which you and I and everyone that's worked in California seem to think is an alien thought but there are so many societies

around the world where we work because we have to okay not because we love to not it's not it's not it's not their dream this is we this is the we we work to live rather than we live to work correct you know I I recorded a podcast with Ray alio and we're talking about how the mission of theal Bank the central bank today is you know lower interest rates so that you can uh spark employment and create this this balance but as soon as you know we're living into a future where when you have

access to to cheap Capital instead of hiring people you're hiring AI agents and humanoid robots and it spirals to a point where you have social unrest you have The Have and Have Nots correct and and that and there are there are multiple examples around the world where where there are strategies to deal with that I I I want to just uh you just finished writing a book called unstress um we'll pick we'll pick up the rest of this in on a following podcast because this is not the first or last conversation here what's your advice

to individuals who are going to be feeling the stress uh the stress of government um policies changing their jobs uh being challenged um concerns over uh this us China all all of this how do how do people deal with stress in a in a positive uh fashion so so you you know my my happiness and well-being work is a is a is weird in terms of in Terms that that I use a lot of algorithms and a lot of engineering methods and processes to help explain those soft topics and and when I attempted to work

on stress the first thing I attempted to explain is what stress is right and if you look at simple physics not to complicate this for anyone you know stress is not just a factor of the force applied to you to an object right it's the force divided by the square area of the cross-section of the object right which basically means that it's it's not just what you're subjected to it's the resources that you have to deal with it okay and in in you know in humans it's exactly the same it's it's the sum of all

of the challenges that you're facing divided by the cross-section of your skills your abilities your contacts and so on and and I think we you know the older generation will you don't need an equation to understand that you know things that you struggled with in your 20s you solved in your 30s you dealt with with EAS in your 40s and in your 50s you laugh about them right not because they became easier but because you increased your your cross-section if you want and and my my ask of people and this is not a philosophical conversation

here this is really uh a plead if you ask me that this we're we're upon the perfect storm of the most challenging time humanity has faced in my lifetime okay whether that's geopolitics that's economics that's intelligence uh artificial intelligence technology advancement jobs uh uh you know um you name it really okay and and that I I'm not going to take away from that it is going to be interestingly challenges but challenging but a bit like a legendary level video gamer okay what I ask people to do is to actually look deeply at what can I

do right what can I do in a world where things are moving so fast for example I'd say try to move faster right uh what what what can I do in a world where a lot of intelligence is handed over to the machines I say learn the machines codes and how the machines are working and go and use AI today to be to catch up and keep up with what's happening you know can we can we double down on our human skills because those are going to be needed and useful for a very long time

can we take saleem's point of view and say you know we need to be reskilled so if you're a developer today don't wait 3 years until you're out of a job think of what else are you going to do and start to Res skill yourself and I know that we want we all and I can give you multiple examples what I know I feel we're running out of time I I know that we all want to sit back and complain and say but I didn't elect Sam Alman why is he doing this to my life

right and I want to do that all the time too but that's not going to help right that I I think we should tell everyone by the way that people who create things of of of this magnitude should be accountable uh but at the end of the day I am I I I need to focus on what's happening today I mean I I'll give you a very good example as an author as a thinker okay the job of an author is to adopt a certain concept and think about it deeply and write about it that's

gone I'm no longer the most intelligent being on the planet to be able to adopt a topic and write about it better than an AI okay but but the so so what that means is I have completely changed I will not publish my books as paper uh maybe maybe in the very end but I'm not publishing that anymore I'm doubling down on my human connection so my you know alive is going to be published on substack First with the with the with the with the opportunity for everyone to engage with me and discuss it with

me and you know give me comments and call me an idiot and you know we improve it together right I'm writing the book with an AI not asking the AI something and then putting it as if I'm saying it I'm literally chatting and debating with the AI in in some of the books sometimes proving her wrong and sometimes she's proving me wrong this is to align with the new world the world is changing and the career of an author is now being redefined so I am being redefined with it and I ask everyone to look

at their life today and say I'm going to redefine myself I'm going to be ahead of that wave and by the way in the process I'm going to act ethically so that this wave becomes a Utopia not a dystopia I love that and that's a a beautiful place to close us out there's so much more uh to go into and I look forward to the next conversation uh Mo excited to see you on stage in just a few weeks Saleem the same for you brother uh and and and thank you and for everybody listening uh

we're entering an Uncharted Territory uh and it's a territory where uh what we say uh how we interact with each other how we interact with the machines that are coming uh is extraordinarily important and uh I hope that this conversation has given you a little bit of uh a little bit of context uh to prepare you but in particular to give you agency to help steer where this future is going there's no onoff switch uh there's no velocity knob the best we can do is steer the future that we want love you guys a pleasure

as always much thank you it's been a joy great conversation [Music]