#CafeExpresso: Amor: entre o eu e o outro, com Carol Tilkian e Renato Noguera

[Instrumental Music] ♪ [Contardo Calligaris] What do you mean when you say that we learn to love? Isn't love an uncontrollable, spontaneous feeling? What do you mean when you say that we learn to love?

Isn't love a sort of mysterious enchantment? Absolutely. Of course the one we love is not chosen at random, although, it is interesting, because we never know exactly what enchanted us.

It's a certain hand gesture, look, tone of voice. It's always a certain look, it's never the right look, it is a certain look. But anyway, the one we love carries something that psychoanalysis calls partial objects, which make us dream of the idea that if, we were together we would lack nothing.

This feeling, by the way, is so strong that it is the source of difficulties in the experience of love, because the consequence of it is that we are always demanding from the other something we don't know what it is, and they don't know either, and that something is supposed to make us complete. At first, it looks like a recipe to disaster. [Carol Tilkian] Hi, I'm Carol Tilkian, I'm a communicator, researcher of love, and today I invited Renato Noguera, doctor in philosophy, for us to talk about how to make love possible today, what the paths and challenges are.

And we're going on this journey towards love at JazzB. [Renato Noguera] Hello, darling, how are you? [Carol] It's very nice to see you.

[Renato] Good to see you too. [Carol] Do you think we are getting more phobic? Because I've seen a lot of people that are maybe more afraid of relationships, because we have the feeling that we have more control in life.

So, if I want to order a meal, it'll be here in ten minutes, if I buy something, I can track where it's coming from. And in a relationship, I don't have this safety and control. And then I'm not dealing with it, I feel we're stunted in live interactions, in not knowing.

So I want to know straight away if this relationship is working or it isn't, what that means, but I'm also afraid to ask. So I see that people are using past experiences as a guide, and I say that in love, maybe our experience have a negative impact, because I'm not with you, I'm with my ex-husband, with my ex-boyfriend, with everything my friends tell me, and I am so afraid of getting hurt, that I look for clues, and then my confirmation bias will find evidence and I will end that relationship. [Renato] Yeah, because there's a thing: How do I dive into that relationship and live that experience?

Because the past will always be present, there's no way. And there's also expectation. All relationships have expectations.

[Carol] Yes. [Renato] That's false, right? No, there's no expectation, whatever happens, happens.

No. You have to align expectations. [Carol] Absolutely.

[Renato] You can't control the other, or control yourself, because what will happen? I control an object, control an event, but I can't control how I feel because it's a subject, it is not an object. And there's an important thing, when I like someone, when we are in a romantic relationship, frustration has to be part of the relationship.

[Carol] Absolutely. [Renato] That's the difficulty of many people. [Carol] Because I feel that we're mistaking frustration for disappointment.

[Renato] Yes, yes. [Carol] So, here's what happens: I get frustrated because I expected something from you, and instead of validating my feeling: Okay, I got upset today, I'm sad, I'm distressed because he didn't call me. I already see this as disappointment and I think you're less involved in the relationship.

When you talked about expectations, I joke that there was the free body movement, I think we should have a "free expectations" movement. [Laughs] Because the expectation seems to be a contagious disease and it will show the person that I'm very available or it will mess with me. And maybe we need to validate our emotions.

It's great to be touched by someone. And if you fall in love, you will be distressed, you'll be anxious, you will have expectations. If we think that all emotions will disturb the relationship, I won't feel like feeling them or I'll blame myself for feeling them, and I see that women blame themselves perhaps more than men, don't you think?

[Renato] Yes, because sometimes you hide the emotion from yourself. You don't want it to be so bad, you are afraid of dealing with that emotion. Fear is a problem.

Fear is not a problem if it doesn't stop you. Fear is a problem if it stops you. I am afraid, what do I do with this fear?

Another emotion may come from fear, sadness may arise. I can deal with sadness, and this can lead to a behavior to deal with it, and having a partner who understands me. But another problem, as Sobonfu Somé says, this great philosopher from Burkina Faso: the other person can never be everything to you.

So, in a love relationship, in marriage, in relationships, we want the person to be our other half and be the only person we go to for all circumstances. No. Sometimes your therapist can help, a friend, they can help you solve a problem.

You can't have just one person to satisfy all your needs. That's fixation, isn't it? [Carol] And even if.

. . [Renato] That's compulsion.

[Carol] And even if we have it all, there will always be something missing. I feel we are not dealing with absences in a proper way. And so, we desperately want to connect.

So, instead of understanding that there's a distress which is mine, related to my life journey, I will credit that to a marriage crisis I will think that my work has no purpose, or that my friends are not connected with me. I also feel that we play victims As we don't look at ourselves, we don't validate our feelings, our inconsistencies, our faults, I either compulsively relate to others or compulsively blame others and play victim. [Renato] I always like to say that love cannot mean sacrifice, that's a problem.

Because what is sacrifice? Sacrifice is abandoning who we are to be able to nurture the other. In Christianity, that's God.

There's a God who becomes incarnated to be able to sacrifice himself to save humanity. If we want to be God, we will suffer. It's human.

So, human love cannot be unconditional, cannot be a sacrifice, It must be love with dialogue in a way that our humanity remains, it is always there. It cannot be dehumanized. [Carol] Yes.

[Renato] Not as object, not as less, not as more. But that's difficult because we want to be perfect to be loved, narcissism also plays a part. [Carol] It does because sacrifice is also a control tool.

I keep thinking about codependent relationships, you do something for someone, you sacrifice yourself, and, again, I think women heard that a lot, something like: I gave up on my professional life to take care of this family, grandmothers and mothers used to say that a lot, or even fathers and mothers, I stopped eating for you, I left my hometown to go after your dream and your profession. But when we rub this in someone else's face, it is also a demand. So, I'm doing it for love or am I doing it because I also want you to sacrifice yourself?

And then we are in a relationship where two people are mutilating themselves in the name of a love that isn't doing good for any of them. [Renato] Yes, yes. And fluctuation is part of life, it's natural, we have a thing against time, a vampire syndrome.

What is a vampire? This Romanian myth of Count Drkul, Drcula, time doesn't go by to him, things are always the same. That's not human.

Time will pass, time changes, circumstances change. So the only way I can deal with life is to recognize that time is changing us. People want things to stay as they were, they are fixated on passion.

Passion doesn't last more than 24 months. 30 months tops. Neuroscience studies show that, there's no way it can last long.

It's natural that it won't last, but it's also natural that we can have a relationship project. And in this project, we won't give the same thing to each other, because it depends on the moment and circumstances. For example, there is a couple one earns "x", the other earns "x" plus 10%.

If they split the bill, they won't divide 50/50 one will pay 10% more. That's fair. So, what I give and what you give are not the same.

So this metric can help people not to give more, and not to give less. Think about children. What can they give their parents?

It's not the same they receive from them, right? Children don't have the same strength, sometimes, all babies can give is a smile. They may start walking.

I can't ask for more than that. They have no capacity to give yet. So you must check the moment you're in, in terms of professional life, mental health, as you said.

And maybe, you will demand less. And you won't feel so guilty, because debt and guilt are bad elements for a relationship. If there's debt and guilt, someone is always in debt.

[Renato] If someone is in debt. . .

[Carol] Yes, and there's a threat that if someone if in debt, you'll look for it somewhere else, right? [Renato] Yes, yes. [Carol] So, there's tension too.

♪ [Contardo] Love becomes a great narrative subject with modernity. I think that without love stories, modernity would not have happened. Modern people need fiction.

Why? Well, because they have no destinations, they invent themselves. They have the task of inventing themselves.

The collection of literary fictions, which today are films, TV shows, whatever you want, music, lyrics and so on. The collection of fictions is made up when modernity triumphs. Because modern people need a collection of what is possible to dream about, a repertoire of daydreams with which to invent life.

Pre-modern people didn't have this problem, because, fundamentally, didn't have the task of inventing life. Life was decided for them when they were born, according to their social position, reproducing or having to reproduce a social mission, the work of their parents and all. Well, modern people are supposed to be autonomous.

So, they must invent themselves. They need daydreams, they need fiction. ♪ [Renato] Please.

[Carol] Thank you. [Laughs] [Renato] Are we talking about love? [Carol] We can talk about love forever.

[Carol] There's a psychologist called John Gottmam, who only studies couples' relationships, and he talks about a five to one ratio. So, to overcome something negative in the relationship, a fight, a disagreement, you have to do five positive things. They can be simple things, like: "wow, this coffee is delicious", Or: "you look lovely in green", Or: "do you know I was listening to that song you love?

" So, we often stop adding these small gestures of kindnesses in our routine. Because sometimes, it is just talking about good things, I feel that the partner becomes the wailing wall. And it's great to have someone to vent, but we also must do this exercise, to practice.

To practice love, to be able to praise, to do a small gesture, a little ritual, we can be romantic in love, we can have romance, not only in romantic relationships because I feel that when people give up on romantic love, they also give up on kindness, and delicacies. There's also this dictatorship of freedom, which is: I'm not obligated to do anything and my wishes, my needs. And in confluence, there is constant renegotiation, and we're doing this less.

I also wonder how much the world of apps makes us become less flexible. Not just dating apps, but also Instagram. Nowadays we feel we have more contacts and we can flirt with more people at the same time.

So, the price of leaving a relationship seems low, because there are many pseudo-interesting people. Do you feel that we are less focused because of this paradox of choice? [Renato] I think this thing of focus is interesting, there are two things: one is this idea of a prerogative of romantic love, for us to be delicate, be kind, for us to show our emotion.

That's not it. It's not the prerogative of romantic love. And in many apps there is an emotional market, on social networks, we can choose people as we choose products, ultimately, as they fit into the dream.

And then, something slips out, which is the mystery. And then there's a thing that younger generation may call cringe, my teenage daughter says it's cringe, "Dad, that's too cringe", which is: Boy, there is a dimension which is the mystery of experience. The mystery of life.

The dimension of the inexplicable. How do I access it? There are elements there, but it's not a product that meets a demand for satisfaction, a checklist, it's not that.

. . [Carol] And even the story, because I think people often start talking to someone, then they stalk the person, and read a story that person built on the internet, and from that story, they make their interpretations, and they go on that date, also wanting to be the best product, so they can match the other, we're all on the same shelf.

And then I go on a date with the goal to get it right. I saw you like coffee, so I choose to go to a coffee place. I saw that you live in Rio, I tell you that my grandma lives in Rio, we look for similarities, instead of giving space to mystery and to.

. . The unknown, because maybe I think that if I talk about philosophy here I'm going to impress you, because you are a philosopher, but you like to hear about my vegetable garden and about how much I love it.

I feel that our meetings are less deep, because we want to get it right all the time, say incredible things, say what the other person will like. You can't tell what the other person will like. [Renato] That's right, because there is a degree of similarity, which can be interesting, a sort of convergence, but this attempt to predict everything, you can't predict everything, but there is a level, a range that may delight you, which is the person who fits your fantasy, your neurosis.

There's that, right? [Carol] Yes. [Renato] This neurosis materializes itself on social networks.

When your neurosis is here, a fantasy, each of us has a story, a story with our family, more or less functional, and we all have models of love and relationships. This creates a fantasy in us. So, sometimes we manage to find out in the clinic, in therapy: damn, this kind of people attracts me, it's that first attraction, that compulsion to repeat.

[Carol] Yes. [Renato] It happens to us all, right? People who always date similar people.

[Renato] That's the point. [Carol] It's nice, I always say I'm tired of interesting people, I want people who are interested, because I think that mainly at the beginning of a relationship, people want to show they are interesting and talk about themselves, like with the app, you check the bio and people talk about themselves as if they were doing a job interview, these are my achievements, my qualities, my travels, my dreams, my goals. And I say that connection happens when you are interested, when you notice that the person drank coffee with no sugar and on the second date, you bring coffee with no sugar.

Do you think we're trying to make ourselves interesting rather than being interested in the other? [Renato] I think so, because there is a market of affections. This market of affections says that, in other words, people somehow became products, commodities, and we exchange commodities for something else.

I exchange coffee for money, for a payment. However, relationships are not about exchanges. That's a problem.

Relationships are about sharing. And then, my master, Antônio Bispo dos Santos, a great intellectual, Nego Bispo, talks about sharing, about confluence. So it's different from exchanging something with someone.

Because when we exchange, I give you something, you give me something. And even Lacan used to say: love is giving what you don't have. [Carol] Yes.

[Renato] It's not giving what you have, right? And confluence, sharing, that's how I experience something with someone. I don't exactly gain something, there is no profit.

That's a difficulty, because there is an existential gain, that you cannot measure in a precise way. At the same time you are accounted for, that person who is with you, helps you find your way, helps you to have peace of mind to pursue your career, and supports you when you need it. [Carol] There is an amazing Ted Talks with Esther Perel, she talks about infidelity, and she says that today, people are getting married, on average, two or three times.

And that maybe we'll get married two or three times with the same person, because we renegotiate. . .

[Renato] Yes, yes. [Carol] agreements, right? And she brings a fact, which I find interesting, she says people cheat, not because of a crisis in the relationship, or because they were attracted to someone else, but because they want to recover a side of them that they left behind.

So, their adventurous side, lighter and younger side. And I keep thinking, why don't they try to rescue this within the relationship? Because the relationship becomes a bureaucratic place, a business, and then you're off to find passion, but the moment that relationship becomes your new relationship, you'll find it somewhere else, and again and again, instead of bringing it here, right?

[Renato] I like Sobonfu Somé a lot, in this idea that a love relationship is a song of the spirit. This is her thesis, what does it mean? The word "spirit" in philosophy means life.

Songs can be rhythms. So there's a rhythm to life, a relationship is when we can set a rhythm that makes our life more comfortable. In this sense, we have to seek the comfort zone, which is not laziness, in the most common meaning of the term, but that's how I manage to have an interaction with someone that helps me find my best powers in the face of difficulties too, but I can be more aware of it.

So, there's a song of the spirit, a better rhythm for life, because this relationship makes me feel safe, I feel psychologically safe to say what I'm thinking, and what I am feeling. That's intimacy. Intimacy is important, but it's not easy to find.

[Carol] And comfortable doesn't mean less, because I feel that we're so addicted to these torrid loves, to these explosive passions, that it seems that comfortable means a lukewarm love. I keep thinking about Cazuza, "I want the luck of a peaceful love, with the taste of bitten fruit". Do we really want peace?

We're so addicted to many stimuli, that we even find this comfort strange. [Renato] I think it's strange because there's this thing: social network, app hunger, and our background, because the films about love have a lot to do with romantic love, right? These sometimes impossible passions.

And those reissues of Romeo and Juliet, in many ways, too. And there is this crazy passion, we can live this passion, this passion can be lived, but not all the time. [Carol] Yes.

[Renato] Because nothing lasts forever. [Carol] And it must become action, right? We talk about Bell Hooks.

[Renato] Bell Hooks, yeah, I thought about her too. [Carol] Love must be a verb, right? And not a feeling, and sometimes we get intoxicated by the feeling, but we do not commit to action.

And I hear it from many women: I don't want to push him, It's the man who must come after me. If it's a song, if it's a dance. [Renato] Yes, yes, it's a dance.

[Carol] We need to do it together, without being afraid. I feel that people are increasingly more afraid to make a next move, or start a difficult conversation in a marriage. And they're thinking a lot, feeling a lot, but doing very little, effectively, for relationships.

[Renato] There is fear of abandonment, Fear of rejection, it's Freud, right? [Carol] Absolutely. [Renato] Fear of rejection, right?

People could abandon me if I'm not what they imagine, what they want, so I want to fit the desire of others, there's that too. [Carol] Yeah, and so, we'll all be abandoned, right? I took a course with Cauana Mestre, who is a psychologist, and she tells a story which I find beautiful.

She said that her grandmother was engaged to a man, and she was hanging the clothes on the clothesline when another man passed in a threadbare shirt, and she saw the hair coming out of the holes of his shirt. And she fell in love. And then she broke off the engagement and told her family, it was a mess and in the end she married that man on the horse, who was her grandfather and she used to joke, telling her granddaughters: I fell in love with your grandfather's holes.

[Renato] Hum, beautiful. [Carol] And I think it's a beautiful image, because we fall in love with people's holes. With their faults, their pain, their inconsistencies.

[Renato] I want to thank Carol for being here with us. Carol, it was wonderful, beautiful. [Carol] Thank you very much.

It's an honor to talk and make love. Making love, people. [Renato] Yes, making love is being here, in our day, our everyday life.

[Carol] Thank you very much. ♪ [Contardo] If love is the ideological engine of individualism and historically, it is, my affection comes first. It's logical to imagine that it doesn't celebrate the couple, but it celebrates the people in the couple.

So the idea is: to love is to idealize the other, turning the other into our ideal, in such a way that if they love us we would experience intense pleasure in being loved by our own ideal. That's a cool trick, in other words, I love you, I think you're beautiful because if you love me back, I will feel loved by my own ideal of beauty, which is very cool. Now, this is sort of petty because it is this mechanism that makes love a great engine of subjective change.

First, because when I idealize the other, I end up transforming them, somehow. I end up forcing them to take the ideal I have into account. Second, because as I want to be loved by this ideal that I forced on my beloved object, I also get closer to my ideal self, and I change.