Men's Rights Activists vs Feminists | Middle Ground

okay let me tell you my experience Dan I have seen that many times I've seen men laugh at each other for like oh my girlfriend hit me you should have been a man you should have like thug it out but do you understand that maybe the guys you hang out with are the guys that you they're so-called toxic because the masculine men that I'm talking about would never do that my name's John it's been 5 years since I directed an episode on this exact same topic and it has only grown more relevant so let's jump

into our discussion between feminist and men's rights activists men already have all their rights if you agree step forward let's start with I hate the name men's rights activists because it does imply that as if our rights are being taken away the problem that men face is more existential the patriarchy conditions men or assigned male at Birth people to pretty much just keep your feelings shut down by age 10 your feelings don't matter and then 12 through 13 and onwards you're just don't really feel like you matter much as a person and I don't think

anybody's disagreeing with that our rights aren't really under attacked meanwhile half of Congress hasn't codified roie way they're trying to control women's bodies and it's just ridiculous like our rights aren't under attack but a lot of women's rights are and I think it's important that we fight for that right I also think that there's a difference between like rights and inequality yeah of so I don't think that my right's being taken away I think that's just an effect of patriarchy I agree um we're not like losing our bodily autonomy uh we're not you know fearing

for our lives walking down a dark hallway you know so I don't think they're comparable I agree yeah yeah I think when um you look at most of the world's leaders are men most judges are men look at even our Supreme Court there's nine judges and how many are women you know it's the fact that women had to fight and ask to in 1974 get access to have their own bank account like that's absurd that's absurd that you know just because there's a little a little um clause in the Constitution it says all men men

being equal they're going to be play dumb and act like that that means just men it doesn't mean human and for women to have to fight for anything to be equal to a man is just it's ridiculous it proves that men have their right they they're the ones that set the rights they're the ones that if that's most of our Senate our house our Congress everybody they're the ones that vote over the laws and things that get passed they have the rights and they're the ones that dish them to everybody else and you're lucky if

you can get them and we also need to remember men's right activism while they do have some genuine plights it started out as a combatant to feminism so I feel like they laid the groundwork off a very um bad Foundation no I honestly I 100% agree I think the I think it's been hijacked by a lot of bad faith actors who blame women for problems that you should blame the patriar exactly exactly and it's very frustrating because I'm on this side because I think that there is genuine problems that I think need to be addressed

I'm sure we can all agree on that what are some of those problems High suicide rates men are four times as likely to um I don't know what the Tik Tok version of the phrase is but you know four times more likely I think that's something that should be talked about more I think that there's also a lot of men are very hesitant to get rid of the Notions of patriarchy whereas I've noticed a lot of women or assigned female birth people are very willing to just throw away any Notions of femininity I think a

lot of men have a lot of emotional baggage from the patriarchy that they redirect at women and it's not fair to them and it's also hurting us right and the problem is is for some men all they have is their notion of masculinity to the point that they cannot let it go and they can't see anything else other than that when the actuality is again gender isn't real we're just plants with complicated emotions when I look at people I just see human shaped flowers yeah I would agree with you I would say that a lot

of these men's rights activists they're struggling like you said they have high suicide or high self deltion whatever we're supposed to say don't know what the word and the way they're coping withs yeah and the way that they're coping with it is by saying okay we're having this issue so we need to put women back exactly and be this yeah we need to take away their rights we need this Society to be the way it was where like all the rights that were afforded to people it was men men were the first people to get

rights and then other people have to especially White and then everyone else has to catch up to them and because they're struggling they go oh let's turn the clock back number one that's impossible you're not going to turn the clock back and number two I don't think that's actually going to help the issue it's not going to help the issue he'll hindle it on the suicide thing I do think it's important to have a little bit of nuance that women actually attempt suicide far more often the reason why men are more successful as it is

because they're more likely to own a firearm and use it um but in terms of uh like men fighting for rights I think that like um movements that attempt to fight for rights uh for particular groups that that sort of description should be um exclusive to genuine social justice movements you know there may there may be disparities and ways in which the the patriarchy does uh disadvantage men but I think that um you can't co-opt the language of it being a social justice a rights based movement no that's the problem is that like I have

this thing I say I feel like saying that like men have feelings it's kind of like saying all lives matter because men only ever bring up their problems directly after women up theirs so it just sounds dismissive and that's the problem is that for a lot of men I think we feel so uncared for by Society we feel so like just like we don't really matter unless we prove our worth that anytime any social movement gets any sort of traction we just immediately just bum rush that and it really makes me wonder that there are

rational men's right activists seeing as yourself but are these people advocating Bad actors for women's rights to be peeled back for for them to to feel comfortable I think I think the I think so cuz I think the problem is that a lot of men again people who are so rooted in their gender bother me because it only hurts you it only hurts other people around you it's kind of like the idea of like cuz the problem is that men are allowed to express anger but they're not allowed to express sadness women are allowed to

express sadness but you cannot express anger or else they get called like a yeah exactly I've never heard one men's rights activists talk about like men the loneliness epidemic of men not having friends it's always like women's problem AG they don't want to date you they don't want to they never offer any solutions no Solutions so this is this is a great opportunity to bring in our disagre but I please I ask that we listen to what they have to say before we disagree with them so the perspective that I come from was about three

years ago I wanted to know why men didn't want to get married anymore I kept hearing men say I don't want to get married and it kind of took me down the rabbit hole of family court I started interviewing men that had been what's called divorce graped and I kept finding guy after guy after guy that lived a couple miles from his kids and could not see them it goes back to men should have access to their children it's 50% their DNA they should get 50% custody off the bat and right now 90% of the

time women get custody the question was do men have all of their rights how can I say that they have all of their rights when I'm finding guy after guy after guy that is devastated he can't talk to his children I had one guy who the woman got custody and she ended up taking the kid to a different country and now his kid doesn't speak his same language he spent $300,000 trying to get that kid back I want to look at Women's stories as to why they don't want to get married and I could go

interview a thousand women you're looking for these kinds of men what she's discussing are individual and yes tragic cases and we can acknowledge that but we're what we are discussing is a systemic issue on aggregate men and women after divorce women see a 27% decline in the reduction of their income they are more likely to be in poverty and they are less likely to get remarried if you go around the world there are countries that have male only conscription countries that have higher pension ages for men uh countries like the US and Canada have certain

welfare programs that men are excluded from domestic violence laws homeless laws there are many cases where men do not have access to the same uh Public Welfare programs tax paid programs and if you look at something like the draft in the US people say well that's um outdated doesn't happen anymore but many countries in the world included some that are considered like very first world Progressive feminist countries Austria Finland Switzerland they have male only conscription and many countries have higher pension ages for men so there is there are many examples of countries that have laws

that directly discriminate against men so do we have all the rights I mean no we don't in the US I had to volunteer well not really volunteer I wasn't given a choice but I had to register for the draft so that's a small example but it's you know one that still goes on today going back to the family court thing because we want to talk about traditional relationships and that's how it should be the mom should stay home with the kids and the dad is the provider and all that but then when it comes to

the family court we want to be like oh dads need 50% custody but you don't even know you're kid you've been off providing all this time and the only reason now you want 50% custody is because that's the only that still connects you to the woman or whatever up reason you have but it has nothing to do with the children at heart it has to do with I'm their father I deserve 50% custody but where were you the first 10 15 years that we were raising the kids I'm not denying that they need their mothers

or their fathers more men and women compliment each other that is what I'm saying some men are more masculine some women are more feminine my girlfriend's more feminine I'm more masculine we go very well together because our values align what no but hold on what is feminine to me she wants to take care of children she wants to that's feminine me it is to me it is that is what I want in a woman I you can only speak from I can name you the stats but I'm talking about me I'm talking as a person

name the stats so what about the stats where all the fathers who leave and don't pay child support isn't that far more common than these men who are on custody which they only do 50% less than women do when men want primary custody they only file the appropriate paperwork 40% of the time women do it over 80% of the time and then they complain that they're not get courts don't give you something that you're not asking for period so what are you saying men choose not to support their families they wave responsibility many times that's

very sexist to say that to assume that fathers don't care about their kids why aren't they acly fighting for their kids they are it wouldn't be an issue if it didn't happen it's an issue for a reason there are lawyers that specializ in this they wouldn't have a business if it didn't happen uh I know at least for you and possibly for Pearl you guys want to reaffirm traditional masculine roles which does not assume that men are the nurturing ones and if that's going to be the case then you're going to continue to run into

the problem where men aren't going to get custody because women are going to be seen as the nurturing um gender selfing prophecy so if you don't want that to be the case then it makes sense to stand with feminists and want to dismantle those sorts of norms and expectations around what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman I would say it should be 50/50 custody off the bat women experience more sexism than men if you agree please step forward now I don't know about like more but I'm coming

at this from like the point of view of like what's more dangerous exactly like mandry men's feelings get hurt but when it comes to misogyny and like sex sexism women get hurt killed so when I say when I think of more I'm not thinking like oh they have more they face more sexism like is the sexism like hurting you no I the same way I was looking at it when I heard sexism I just heard safety yeah that's that was my main that was the way I was approaching at the topic was basically men experien

sexism I don't think anybody would disagree with that um I think the topic was just more sexism like you said uh you know just simple things just as like a man maybe just 10 feet behind you at night you know there are certain thoughts that just run into your head just simple ideas such as being treated differently in the entertainment industry versus how as a man um when I hear sexism again like you said I view it more as just danger you know what I mean like for men me facing sexism like you said my

feelings might get hurt but I'm not going to I'm not going to feel for my life you know what I mean as opposed to women I think they genuinely do fear for their lives more and I think we should work towards making a safe Society for everybody right and I think that that's ultimately you know what's important aside from safety any other examples yeah I mean I think when most people in power are men and then they can abuse That Power by like there the common joke of oh she slept her way to the top

like that wouldn't be such a common joke if it weren't for women being sexualized and experiencing sexism so common that is just a regular joke that we all just accept and just go with AA she slept her way to the top like it's funny like it's clear that since men have so much power and not only that but men are bigger than us so if they want something from us at any point they could just take it they can and a lot of times they do and you just have to sit there and take it

men are each other's worst enemy I feel like a lot of the sexism that men face that really impacts them is from other men men make fun of each other for like getting assaulted men make fun of each other for like not getting the girl men like these are things that if men really wanted if these men's right activists really wanted to change this notion they would be treating their fellow man better no I mean but they're ridiculing them for not being masculine enough 100% I sorry sorry just was going to say just I agree

with everything you're saying like you said earlier men shoot themselves in the foot and I believe someone said earlier that men when they talk about the loneliness epidemic it's only about ever getting the girl but it's never about friends about camaraderie would exactly no yeah I what is it like one of the things that I think that you really touched on men shoot themselves in the foot often there's just this idea that it's the same way you see poor people attacking other poor people because they're not getting paid enough men will attack other men because

it threatens their masculinity or because they're insecure in it when again I'm not like a broken record player here it's not a real concept masculinity is not a real concept feminity is not a real concept these are just things that just hold us back and like you said it halts us from really truly like feeling heard getting our feelings out there and like experiencing more empathy we need to again destroy the system destroy the patriarchy and come up with a system that has empathy for everybody because it just doesn't I think what's important to recognize

is that missandry is not a systemic issue it's not ingrained in us um to the extent that there is like rhetorical mandry of like women saying I hate all men you know it's just like individualized like yeah sure unhelpful things but it's not an otherization in the same way that misogyny is um yeah I think that the world has been largely constructed through the male and man lens and in a way that has otherized women and so yeah misogyny is is is more endemic to uh gender relations rather than mandry being sort of like individual

outbursts of reacting to that no exactly 100% agree okay and we're going to bring in our disagrees but I do want to say some of the things that you were saying you hear from Men's rights activists I agree I've heard that online I haven't heard that from these people in this discussion yet I think it's just worth clarifying let's bring in our disagre you start yeah go for it okay so I would disagree that you say mandry is not systemic cultural mandry is evident in a lot of the laws that neglect men uh mandry is

why home less men don't have as many shelters it's why we don't take uh male victims of domestic violence as seriously it's why Men's Health Care is underfunded and there is a psychological uh phenomenon called the women are wonderful effect where society and people have less empathy for men in a general sense now there may be some Nuance there is there could be some negative consequences for women but overall we see social welfare programs and laws mostly disfavor men and even if it's a male politician who supports that law he's still catering to his voters

and the fact that a male politician makes a decision doesn't Resurrect The 19-year-old drafty who was killed in battle So when you say that mandry isn't a thing I completely disagree it's almost become fashionable mandry is almost a fashionable trait among the left and I'm not a right- Winger but I almost feel pushed this way because when I try and talk about men's issues I get some very sharp reactions from the left so I just want to respond to that just cuz it was uh specifically directed at me um in terms of mandry not being

systemic I agree that those issues exist but a lot of what you're referring to is just um the relationship between men having um disadvantages due to like socioeconomic status and comparing that to benevolent misogyny which does actually otherize women and is a form of dehumanization that they should be specially cared for and specially undertaken I there was a there was a study out of the University of Chicago in 2005 that found that when you actually diversify the amount of judges in a court sex-based um discrimination uh lessons so the reason why mandry isn't systemic is

because we don't live in whatever the opposite of we don't live in a matriarchy right so it's we men do things that of course disadvantage other men but it's not uh because they're men they're not being discriminated because they're it's it's due to them being like poor or whatever uh other sort of specific situation that they're in and I just want to add that uh like the reason there are women only spaces or women only shelters is because men are the perpetrators of most of the crime now they are also the victims of a lot

of the crime which is why that's why I didn't agree with the prompt because I think it is that sexism like they did touch on it and he to touch on it that like oh men are supposed to Never back down from a fight I even hear things like oh if men men should have to know how to fight men should have to be aggressive and you know so these women only spaces is because women most of the crime that's done on women is men is from men so it's a safer place for women when

there are no men around especially when women that are homeless or at the bottom ranks of society well I don't disagree that we need a women's only space I'm just saying there is a lack of men's space available so there are homeless men and abused men who don't have spaces available we are not against women's spaces we're just saying there is a greater need for men spaces than currently exist you guys are referring to violence like it belongs to men most of especially serious violence most of the women that are killed domestic violence yes they

are women as one out of three wom in the US are were victim of domestic violence do you have an experience to pull from that you want to share I've been hit by women before I've been stabbed like I've been hit multiple times by women yet I'm a 225 PB guy of muscle and I have 20 years of experience you know what I did nothing I just took it but if I were to go to the police you know who they they would remove from the house me my ex-wife when I was going through a

divorce told me that she'd lie to the police in order to file the divorce faster cuz it was taking too much time cuz where I'm from in Canada it's one year like they will tell you that you need to be separated for a year so you have a chance to rekindle but all I'm saying is violence is violence no matter I'm not saying that men are not violent that's not what I'm saying what I'm saying is I've seen women as violent is just that it is not regarded in the same way just as you mentioned

no but men are not taken seriously either and the point I wanted to bring is to what you said because you mentioned that earlier and correct me if I'm wrong you were saying that men are not encouraged to speak about their feelings uh I would say largely that's true yeah yet you're bringing them down in your conversation you're you're saying that being sexist towards a man is not as big of a deal as being towards a woman so on one point you're saying that men should be able to show their emotions to live their emotion

however term you want to use but in the next sentence you're saying that the emotion of a man don't matter as much no tions certainly matter and I think that you can express like disagreement or even sadness if somebody's being quote unquote misanger I'm just saying it's not systemic and that's a fact that's a matter of fact I'm saying in the descriptive reality of what mandre is versus what misogyny is it's not actually systemic right so I'm having a factual disagreement with what men quote unquote are expressing their feelings which I don't think the majority

of men or even a plurality of men are expressing those sorts of feelings that Mander is like some big burden on them bu more laws against men though I mean there's more laws in the US that are disfavored to men than women why is that like which laws like the inconsequential draft no like what laws access to certain Healthcare programs prostate cancer the biggest killer of non-smoking men is not covered under the ACA okay women women in like half the country don't even have a right to like bodily autonomy don't have access to effective contraception

you're you're comparing uh amount of Rights you compar them wait you compare those no you you literally just said men don't have more rights than women you said that men have less rights and and I asked you for an example there's no women's you said access you said access to to to spaces certain welfare programs yes no so men don't have access to male only spaces but men do have access to and I do believe in a strong social safety net but there's not male exclusive spaces because there's not gendered violence of women against men

to the same degree that there is in their in terms of legitimate safety in terms of like risk of injy risk three will face domestic violence one out of four men face the same violence the point is that we don't report it what do you mean by same violence why does it matter if it's the same or not but are you against male only spaces existing in the first place um not necessarily but I don't think that it's some like widespread systemic issue or that it's the issue that men like necessarily needed or I think

that if you had co-ed uh spaces I don't see why a co-ed space would be detrimental to uh men whereas I do see co-ed spaces can being detrimental to women and the need for uh women only spaces but do you think that male victims face certain stigmas and stereotypes I do I do believe that we need to destigmatize the way that uh men experience victimhood a lot of men believe that it's demasculate to ask for help and that is something that as a feminist I push up against I also think it's uh it's it's wrong

to uh consider a man less of a Man based on like how much he earns I do believe that yeah we don't we we should encourage men to like share their feelings what I find ironic in your statements is that you're literally saying that men's feelings don't matter as much no what what you were talking about sexism earlier this is literally what you said I'm just giving you a descriptive reality of why male only spaces don't exist I don't think that it would be like the most intrinsic evil in the world if a male only

space existed but it's not a like necessary part of the way that um uh sexual or gender-based violence is experienced by men since I have been a kid it has been common in the media to refer to men as trash to say that men are the problem men are terrible etc etc to the point that on national TV a guy got his chopped off and they were laughing about it and nobody said anything and nobody cared and if the reverse happened I don't think it would be the same outrage does anyone on this side want

to do you see that I agree that should be an outrage and the reason why it isn't is because it's considered demasculate for men to be victims and I think that in order to dismantle that we should dismantle unhealthy views about masculinity which is exactly what feminists are trying to I I think if you guys did a good job at that it's been a hundred years since feminism started you maybe have some progress I don't think feminists care about men at all they just want to give women special privileges and treatment you're basically saying that

men should be taken serious and their violence should be taken serious but you're not understanding that when you talk about women being violent you're talking about it from a patriarchal standpoint who says though it's because patriarchy weaponizes men to be more violent women are seen as not culpable for their violence it strips them of their agency and infantilizes them for when they do commit violence and you guys are upholding that system by not joining us hang on feminists support gender laws on domestic violence in the UK in 2020 feminists actually protested against the domestic abuse

bill because they didn't like the fact it was gender neutral the duth model in the US feminists protest the fact that it's gender neutral so it's feminists who want to perpetuate these gender roles by saying laws should be gendered and recognize gender into the factor so it's not you perpetuated we want gender neutral laws yes there may be differences in gender let that be a case-by case decision feminists are the ones who support laws that are by and large gendered and inherently by default treat men and women differently I'm just very confused how you're calling

out feminists for like having these um crazy views when you hear what he's saying though um that he perceives feminists as advocating for gendered laws some feminists um what yeah what's your what's your reaction to that feminist is not a monolith yeah as a mother I I'm a mother I have three daughters and I have a son so when I look at the world I'm looking at the world for how will all of my kids farewell in this world I don't want anything that's gendered in one way or another but when we're talking about like

this male spaces thing whenever men enter a space it becomes their space they're bigger they're stronger they're louder and a lot of times when women feel uncomfortable we'll just excuse our way out and it's just naturally become a male only space that's why most shelters mostly have men homeless shelters like in Denver where I live all the homeless shelters are mostly men that's why there are specific women shelters because if a woman goes into that shelter when the lights go out who knows what's going to happen to that one little woman in this shelter with

all these men and speaking of this all the domestic violence shelter for men the one guy that did try to start a domestic violence um shelter for men and he was like a big men's rights activist but in in the true sense wanting men to have what you want like domestic violence resources resources for just for them he got so laughed out of the world the dude ended up unal living himself Earl Silverman yeah he was laughed up by feminists he was laugh by feminist too and men not m not by m so you basically

want to excuse all like just shed yourself of all the misdeeds of your movement is the men's movement did not demonize Earl Silverman it was not men's it was not Mr who demonized Earl Silverman ITX that's what you're saying it was feminist and the same thing with Aaron pizy who I've interviewed by the way feminist demonized Aaron pizzy and erl Silverman not M we did not demonize either of those people we're not trying to say that we feminist we're trying to say that the patriarchal Viewpoint that men like laughing at me oh look at him

trying to get resources it's a joke I don't not subscribe to that but that's a patriarchy talking not show me those men because I'm around men all the time and I'm from veterans that suffer from PTSD to just regular dudes I'll tell you sources you keep talking I have never seen personally cuz you're you're asking for personal experience I've I've spoken to hundreds if not thousands of those men I've never seen a guy tell another guy you shouldn't do this or you shouldn't behave that way because you know what when we're with with each other

guys can just be guys but still okay okay let me tell you my experience then I have seen that many times I've seen men laugh at each other for like oh my girlfriend hit me you should have been a man you should have like thug it out here that happens all the time but do you understand that maybe the guys you hang out with are the guys you they're so-called toxic because the masculine men that I'm talking about would never do that okay that's you and there's me personal experiences right but we agree that that

men should not treat each other that way oh yeah hey there I know trying to find a middle ground during a passionate debate can be a bit frustrating and honestly it seems like we're just circling the same points right but when it comes to the unexpected like you've been in a serious accident there's no debating that you need help and that's where Morgan and Morgan comes in no matter who you are and what you believe in America's largest injury Law Firm is always on their client side Morgan and Morgan specializes in a wide range of

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to start your free claim today thanks to Morgan and Morgan for sponsoring this portion of the episode now let's get back to it women's sexual Capital gives them an advantage over men if you agree please step forward so I would say that women's sexual Capital allows them more opportunities some could say maybe they're bad like in terms of sex work right but women make much more in sex work also um I've managed both male and female on social media it's a lot easier to blow up as a chick so it gives you more opportunity and

why why do you think uh it's easier for women to blow up on social media um because it's looks based so any men love pretty women it's really that simple and as you said likees too sorry only fan would be the perfect example that really does not normally work for men but it works for women extremely well and medical sales you know it's another one I worked in sales as a sales engineer I worked in sales for more than a decade and women tend to do better I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing

either because why not take advantage of the the traits the qualities that you were born with everybody likes to look at and I don't think it matters that it's a guy looking at a woman or a woman looking at a guy they like to look at somebody that looks good but it does tend to influence men's decision a lot more than it does women do you want to add anything yeah I mean I think it's true but it's kind of like so what I look at it's one of those facts of life kind of things

it's like whatever you know is what it is and it's not necessarily A Bad Thing that's the thing it's it is it is true you'll see it wherever you go women will get more attention because they look better but is that that bad of a thing I don't think so it it it is the way it is just is just the way it is all right let's bring in our disagrees yeah okay so I actually I feel like this is perfect for me so I am a top top top only fans Creator and I'm also

a lawyer which is is a very weird you know you're perfect person perfect person to talk about this and um yeah I I have made I had a I have a lot of you know lot of money from doing only fans but I was always also Vil I've never been more vilified either for using my sexual capital in order to make a living whereas when I was a lawyer and all throughout school I was always hated I was always just looked at cuz I had like a more curvy body and everything so I do think

women can capitalize off of their sexual power but I also think they are also demonized and B ified and even when they aren't trying to capitalize off of it people still see them as just that we also see cases of like porn started dying um there's a lot of I feel like a lot of men like to oole out women like to see them um objectify them but they don't see them as human so I don't know uh so women might capitalize off of that but I don't necessarily see that as like net positive for

them if they're being vilified for doing something that obviously has a market for it um I just think it's very hypocritical why do you find it hypocritical because there are men that literally watched this content that subscribe to these people and then they demonize the same people they're giving money 247 this is a man's problem not a woman's problem men need to control themselves and I think if women have a t of sexual Capital who gave it to us it's not us we're not the ones that are just deciding I'm going to be powerful because

I have a body that's not what's happening it's men that never learned how to deal with their emotions and their feelings and their urges that wasn't taught to them so they don't know how to do that so now they give women all this sexual capital and then also want to vilify us for it and make us the bad guy for it but you're the one that's noticing the pretty girls you're the one that's giving us this I didn't ask it's funny because when I'll go with my boyfriend sometimes I'll go places and I get five

chicken tenders instead of four or you know we go buy a drink or yeah I get two drinks and I come home and I'm like look what I got and he's like that never happens to me and I'm like oh silly I'm not asking for I guess a followup though that what they might ask or that I would I'm curious about is do you think there's like a natural that's just a sort of natural pattern or order to how men and women operate or do you or do you feel like that's conditioned I think it's

conditioned because it is so refreshing and welcome and amazing when I meet a man who does not treat me that way they do not treat me like a sexual object they treat me like a person they talk to me like a person they give me what I paid for I get my item and I leave and there's no weird like did did I owe him anything did he can I respond to that in my personal experience men only talk to women they want to sleep with yeah in my personal experience women have to be attractive

on top of their job you can't just be a lawyer you have to be an attractive lawyer can't just be a dentist you have to be an attractive dentist I think when men talk about sexual capital and women it's because they literally ignore Every Other Woman in that area there's like this concept of like men get put into friend zone women get put in the zone so do you think that you know some of what I heard is it is what it is men are attracted to beautiful women so there's kind of a natural order

argument this is just the way we behave whether it's biologically or do you feel that it's conditioned I do think it's conditioned can I respond to that I think it's a little both I do think that that is a little bit of the natural order of things but like for instance I think a big like my only really interaction with these man spaces or the Manis feere spaces are these like red pill podcasts that I've gone on a million times like fresh and fit whatever where they bring on women like me that are making all

this oh you're on only fans they bring in all these sex workers and then they tell us we're low value nobody will ever love us we're for the streets and they do all of that and then my comments get flooded with that that's conditioned can I just say say MRA fresh and fit really sucks you do not like them they are trash they're garbage they're from South Florida unfortunately I does but why do only fans problem with them women go on the W podcast yeah that's a good question it's because the same men Their audience

that hates us they're also making me a ton of money exactly like you're pretty much a prop for them to make more money cuz they'll they'll have you on the podcast and you'll be like the eye candy but they don't actually care about your opinions they're just using you as a prop to put down and so that could feed into their audience people people don't respect sex workers because it's easy to take your clothes off that's why they don't respect them it's also easy to open your mouth people people respect things that are hard and

sex work only fans that's not hard and why is it that people still respect like Leonardo DiCaprio sleeping with small it's really easy for him to do that nobody bats an eye for him sleeping with who with when extremely rich and wealthy successful men wait when exem Rich successful healthy and goodlooking Men sleep with a lot of women even though it's easy for them to do so they're not looked down on the same way that like for example a sex worker maybe using her body it's also important to note that like this whole idea of

like um sex workers and um only fans girls like making a ton of money is extremely new who owns like 99% of the actual porn industry in the the Production Studios it's men men historically and even today still are the ultimate benefactors of women's sexuality and men only started getting upset about porn and all this stuff when women started making their own money on only fans men did not complain about porn before the proliferation of only fans these podcasts did not exist back thenl what do you think um was it difficult for Leonardo DiCaprio to

become rich and successful is that a difficult thing to do um it in his case maybe but for a lot of men not necessarily to be a world renown do you think it do you think it you just answer yes or no is that hard to do question what do you what do you think I think it's hard to do and that's why people respect it do you think being a sex worker is easy to do so people don't respect it lots of people do easy things they start YouTube channels spewing nonsense fans also don't

make a lot of money the record most only fans girls do not make money they don't and they're not respected either are are are men who were born into wealth and naturally good-looking when they sleep with a lot of women are they demonized for that and called no no so it doesn't matter whether or not it was difficult for them to get to a high status or if they were just born into it I would say being a man doesn't prude they're not demonized but it's generally difficult for men to be selected by a lot

of women and the dating app stats will back that up that's again so again I know you're asking about demonization but the original question was why does Leonardo DiCaprio celebrated it's because it is hard being a sex worker is easy you just so you just said he's celebrated because it's hard but I you just admitted earlier wait you just also admitted earlier that that a guy who is successful and and born into wealth and born into a naturally good-look body is also celebrated for sleeping a lot of that's not really B it's not so it's

not actually contingent on whether I'll make a caveat I would say even men still need to learn to be attractive to women even if they're born into wealth and naturally goodlooking women also need to learn how to bect that's are you calling us just dumb dogs or something but I some of the top only fans creators aren't attractive at all can I ask that's subjective that's subjective clearly not I think I have a question you say being a sex worker is easy but look at the I know you love statistics how come most only fans

women don't earn a living off make L because they don't care about money they like attention and that was the that was the big thing when I interviewed a bunch off of interviewing a bunch of only fans models and they'll tell you that a lot of them do they say I just enjoy taking off my clothes on camera well let's hear from somebody who has experienced do you want to respond to that uh that's absolutely not true I mean just to use my anecdotal experience I didn't even have social media before I started I have

an Instagram I do not care about attention I just wanted to make a lot of money which is why people do only fans why would they want to get attention it's a lot of it's negative too A lot of people hate you a lot of people think you're no one's going to marry you blah blah blah I don't believe those things but I'm also able to advocate for I'm a lawyer so I'm more gifted in being able to combat that rhetoric these girls are not and a lot of these girls that are going into this

I'm the exception they don't have other options they're not super educated they don't have other avenues to try to make a living and then a lot of them when they do go in this when you say it's easy it's not easy to make a ton of money on o fans I had to do a ton of marketing I had no social media following ahead of it you could say okay well you look a certain way or whatever but a lot of the women that enter this if it was so easy they wouldn't be not making

money well I would disagree that there's no other option you guys can get jobs just like the men to I look at what people say versus what they do you might say that you didn't care about attention but I look at the way you behave and dress and it would indicate other way to the real job to you and you're more scantily clad okay so why what are you looking for attention o okay let's not do personal attacks it's not really going to work out for us let's move on there is a new episode of

radical empathy out now I had an interview with a only fan star who is also a virgin go listen to it after you watch this episode Middle Ground feminism is trying to remove masculinity from society if you agree please step forward all right ni start us off you know I think the best thing to say is probably that they're trying to be masculine so they're trying to remove what masculinity is today and replace it by a version of femininity that is masculine who's they feminists oh god I thought that's who we were talking about got

it got it yeah I think that feminists are against anything that's actually masculine so they're trying to get rid of it is what you say but I think it's more than that they're kind of replacing it they're kind of trying to redefine what masculinity is so you know what probably the better answer is traditional mascul is being replaced by something that is not masculine at all well and the question is how do you raise masculine men you need fathers in the home to teach them it and feminism have given incentives to take the father out

of the home and do you want to give us a few examples before we pull these guys in well what percent of men actually get custody of their children it's 50% of their DNA why don't they get 50% custody mhm all right let's bring in our disagrees men typically get custody of their children way more often than not when a woman rightfully and honestly gives her experience of domestic violence in the marriage she's more likely to lose custody of her children there is no issue with men getting custody that's absolutely true you're just making numb

what percent of what percent of the time do men get custody of their at least 50% of the time what you're thinking about that is not true 77% of the time 90% of the cases do not even go to Family Court no but but the question is why and that's I had the same no I had the same I had the same thought when I first heard it I would ask like why aren't men fighting for custody but the problem you get is the lawyers will tell them not to even fight because it's so expensive

and you have a you have a 10% don't even file the appropriate paper are you blaming feminism for that wait I think the statistics and the numbers that you're thinking of and that you're talking about are from the 70s it was from a psychologist Dr Gardner he was the one who invented the term parent alienation and he was very biased in gearing it towards women he was later discovered to also be defending pedophilia the parent alienation has never been in any DSM never recognized by anyone even the World Health Organization so more often than not

now that women are working and men are working custody is very much spit down the middle who gets the major custody the majority of the time men or women so men who fight for custody actually are far more likely get to get back to the question I found the question somewhat too vague I mean do feminists want to erase masculinity it's kind of too abstract and vague to answer so my problem is when feminists try and redefine masculinity or they try and say this is our interpretation of toxic masculinity as we see it that's kind

of the problem that I have um I don't like it when feminists tell men how they should feel how they're supposed to feel this is how your experience as a man is supposed to go and that is where I would have the issue with that I would say that yeah so people say oh masculine like men are all supposed to be masculine and women are always supposed to be feminine as if there's no overlap while there may be differences between men and women are average a lot of times those effect sizes are pretty small and

to have a society where we have this rigid like you're a woman therefore this is the best job for you you're a man so this is the best job for you that's not how you have a flourishing Society actually based on meritocracy where the people best suited for a particular role or a particular job or more passionate about it can go do that so if women want to stay at home they can if they don't they don't have to same for men many people also have a mix of femininity and masculinity can I expand on

that actually go ahead in my experience I feel like uh what is when it comes to redefining masculin that's not even a real concept we need to abolish gender as a whole because the ideas um that's pretty much raising the whole masculine that's not even a real concept feminine is not a real concept these are just things that were designed long Long Ago by people who abolish gender yeah it's not real it's not real it's a human constuct if the if the complaint is that feminists which aren't synonymous with women obviously we have two male

feminists right here if the complaint is that feminists want to reconstruct a new idea of masculinity that is actually healthy that allows men to realize when they are victims when they are going through things like depression or or uh suicidal um or alienation any or any matter for that fact we have to recognize that that is going to be to the benefit of men right so which but I don't know anybody especially me I'm as masculine as they come I would never say that that's wrong what you just said is absolutely right but the point

in the matter is there are things that women do better than men they're better caretaker they care more they love more this is why if you look at the University of Ottawa studies they show that within the next 10 20 years 75 to 90% of caretakers will be women as in medicine not just nurses we're talking all across the board but does it have to be that way does it always have to be that way that but hold on that completely sidestep the point I was making do you deny that when a man cries it's

considered Dem mascula no not at all they whoever day is is saying that this is what a man should be the thing men don't deal with their emotions the same way women do because they're not taught to from childhood because you're a boy you get a truck you're a girl you get a doll you're going to be good at cooking go play in the toy kitchen you're a big tough man go get the army soldiers that's why basically do you think you have the special answer of the right way to tell the kid of course

she does I think when you when you let a child when you look at having children as I'm bringing independent thinking little humans into this world and I want them to grow into whoever they are meant to be whatever that is whether it's a male ballerina or a female NFL coach I want this little person that I love so much to be whatever they want to be no one's arguing with that okay so here's what I think um I agree that people should not be locked into a role either way I think that if you

took 10 million men and 10 million women and you track them over 10 years you might see certain Trends emerge now it doesn't mean you have to be this or you have to be that people should be free to be whatever they want but I do think that you would see certain Trends emerge now is what might some of those be well you might see on average boys are more likely to play with GI Jo's and girls are more likely with Barbie are straight statistics coming straight out of his like whatever we cannot go off

of like statistics in the numbers that you're coming up with on the fight you make good point but I feel like you're talking about social conditioning you're saying you assume there would be some there would be Trends if you ran that study yes but that's that's his assumption not an actual stat but do you does anybody on the feminist side have do you believe that masculinity is a thing well I mean it's it's it's a thing in the way that every like race is also a thing it's not it's not biological it's not fixed but

it's a real social construct that does have real impacts on people's everyday lives and I understand what you're saying that there are going to be uh deviations and differences and the test is whether or not those deviations are socially constructed environmental or biologically based but I think that we have no clue to the extent the way that things are truly socially constructed for Millennia women have been barred out of like educational purpose but now women are actually out out graduating men they're actually earning earning better grades than men in many instances you have nothing of

a to I would agree I think it's a mixture of uh biology and conditioning so it's interesting to um imagine a 100 years from now how will it play out but I do think it's a mixture of both so I do agree with that that's nature versus nurture we've known that we've understood that it's that's nothing like mind-blowing and new you said you were the most masculine person here can you define what masculinity is exactly I would like to hear that five things a man's a provider he needs to be a protector he needs to

have faith he needs to have courage you got it so if they don't do that they're not masculine by your definition why is Faith masculine you have to believe okay to answer your question I'll ask you a question how do you build self-confidence you don't need Faith to do that you don't need Faith to do that no you don't hold on you're assuming that faith I'm talking about God don't assume what I'm assuming no but faith in yourself your self self self-belief starts with believing in yourself that's faith cuz at the beginning you won't believe

why is that masculine though anybody could have that do you think that there's masculinity no it's not a real concept femininity is not a real concept aren't you a men's rights activist I'm a men's rights activist but that's just the other same side of uh that's the same side what's it called same side of feminism I believe in destroying the patriarchy I believe in destroying the ideas of gender I agree with everything you're saying because the ideas that you guys are talking about with how men are emasculated not allowed to cry or people think their

emotions AR AR valid I agree with all that that's not women's fault and those aren't even like masculine traits these are all just ideas that were just fed To Us by the patriarchy and we need to destroy it why are you a men's rights activist um only because I feel like this side understandably has a lot of Bad actors and grifters and there aren't a lot of people on this side who thoroughly align themselves with feminists I have a lot of friends who are feminists I align myself with most uh trans feminist and feminist of

color the reason why I'm mostly on this side is honestly just because I can sympathize with the plight of most men not feeling valid and not feeling heard and I think that should be talked about the problem is is the people who are leading that conversation tend to be folks who are still rooted in the concept of gender and I think that's detrimental to the movement and when you think about it feminists and men's right activists could work together I agree 100% yeah we want a society where the like for instance like she said earlier

oh it's cuz women are going into these useless Majors like I'm a lawyer half of our profession is women half of the medical profession doctors are women right this idea that men have to be the providers when half of us households have women earning almost as much as much or more than men it's because women are good at these jobs women are like I do ve I did very well on the outside I did very well in law school so for you to say oh women are feminine and they're not they're supposed to just sit

at home and be nurturers then in a meritocracy well in a meritocracy a lot of women that kids I you if men are supposed to be providers if that's masculinity then what's femininity I never said that a woman needs to stay home name the five name the five thingsin women and men compliment each other well that how would a woman compliment masculinity Mass it's a good question how would a woman compliment you know what take if I take my example because that's all I can talk about my girlfriend will stay at home with the kids

so that's complimenting no no but that is her choice I understand I choose to provide and I do not want you think it's feminine for her to stay at home this is a choice that her and I made I found a partner that is more traditional in her values she wants to raise children that's what she wants I come from a broken down family where my dad left when I was 14 and he never came back I needed a father figure to teach me what it is to be a man because a woman cannot teach

a boy how to become a man neither can I teach a girl how to become a woman so in my choice when I want children I want a woman that will stay with them that will teach them love that will teach them to be compassionate and I think their followup would be do you see your partner taking that role as as inherently feminine more so than if she went to be a neuros of course CU I I believe in a more traditional role but that doesn't mean that you're wrong if your husband wants to stay

home I don't have a problem with that I believe that men and women complement each other men should go to therapy agree or step forward sorry so I I would be very cautious when it comes to um I'm not against it per se but it's just I think there's a lot of things that are not completely uh sound but I'm not against the idea of men going to therapy if you find a good therapist and it helps you sure yeah good therapy um not weap like I think what you're talking there is a some people

that weaponize therapy talk that basically try to psychoanalyze people and use false like stereotypes about them but good honest therapy I feel like men women everybody could benefit from that and I feel like as men's right Advocates you guys should be striving for men you know taking their mental health more serious has it benefited you if you I used to take therapy back in um High School um due to like you know uncertainty about the future and my academics and stuff like that and it it did me good and I feel like a lot of

people just need someone to talk to and therapist is you know that's what they're made for you know well I will say personally um I do think therapy is important but I do have a problem with how it seen as like the end all be all solution to men like true to me America is such an isolationist country that even our forms of healing are isolationist like go out somewhere come back healed yeah the solution is always therapy and pills it's never Community or compassion right and I think that should be like to me everybody

I know uh I've done therapy personally I've been in it for a couple of years yeah it's fine but what really has helped me is just finding Community finding other friends talking to people um not that could be therapy in itself no it is it's just but there's a definition of therapy that I think is wrong and that's why I was hesitating because Community explain what you mean for men especially and again I can't talk for women I'm not a woman but for men especially we lack the interaction with other men without having women involved

yes that's true and this is why I love martial art this is absolutely why it has made me the man that I am today because I got to bleed to literally physically hurt somebody else but it was always in a control matter I am a violent man by Nature I'm but I meditate every day I have my violence under control because I was shown techniques to control myself that were taught by community of men so martial arts is your therapy but not talk therapy the word therapy that's misused men need therapy but do they need

to go see a psychologist or they just need to go to Street somewhere for a few weeks where it's just dudes cuz unlike and I'm I'm going to assume here but I have spent years alone in the Woods by myself in meditation just reading and you know what hardest thing I've ever done in my life but I needed to do it that's true I built a community of men around me they might not be physically with me but I have two guys that I can call no matter what does not matter what it is but

they're older than me they're the age of my parents because they're mentor to me and this is what men need they don't need somebody to talk to that's going to make them feel better they need somebody to be there for them and this is where we lack I cannot remember the statistics or the numbers themselves but after 30 most men don't have any friends anymore yep they literally are alone and that's why men kill themselves they have nobody to depend on they have nobody to call you know there's the expression to say do you have

a guy that you can call 3:00 in the morning to say bring a shovel don't ask why but I need you to bring a shovel and if you have a truck I'd like that too is that a good thing but the point is that it's a Do or Die friend and most men do not have that cuz women do tend to bond it's easier for women to bond it is just think that like many men can bond with other men but I feel like instead of doing that they look at women to solve their no

I I agree with that actually I think a lot of I think I see this a lot in the men's rights activist movement where basically again we turn to women to use our use their emotional labor to sort of like you know kind of just oh women are natural caretakers and they're not nobody's a natural anything and it's a thing where we need to start doing that for each other like again I've been in three men's mental health spaces and it's all usually just predominantly just me and a bunch of other Progressive men just talking

about pretty much just how we feel about the world and that's really that has done more for me personally than therapy has right um and I think that's sort of like I'm glad that you have that Community with those two men I think that's important to have I wish more men had that because that's what's needed yeah I agree and however you call it like you can talk it it's more Progressive I did it through martial arts it's some do it through business one of my mentors a business Mentor but he's like my father but

I do think we also need to emphasize that men need to also hold each other accountable just be like you know um enforcing each other's bad habits and qualities they should be a healthy community community of everybody needs an in their life and that's normally me but you need somebody that will call out your faults you need somebody that's going to be we so that is all part of the men Community you will find a guy like that if you don't you should definitely don't expect women I think that women are really good at finding

a lot of fulfillment in their platonic friendships um uh there's often the case where we talk a lot about uh lonely men there uh you know women are like Maring marrying less to but they're a lot less depressed over it because they find so much fulfillment and connection uh with their uh interpersonal friends and then in terms of uh therapy um you know I I I I work with therapists for like my day-to-day job and there's definitely like bad therapists out there but um as an aggregate you know uh therapy is clinically proven to be

you know generally more beneficial than not and it is also proven that men statistically are less likely to seek out therapy and so yeah I think I think that whole the definition of therapy that matters too there a lot a lot of the men that I know and again I've dealt with thousands of them it is not done through a psychologist it is done through physical activity there actually is evence and I think that both are are necessary I think that seeking out a professional dep on the person might work for you might not work

for Meir and you need to actually open up when you talk that was actually that actually the thing I was going to say you always do you know the best conversation I've ever had is when somebody just punched me in the face we're both exhausted and we sit there but no but I'm different from you obviously we're not the same so to laugh at what I'm saying vent by Nature not at all everybody's violent I disagree no no IE I want her to fly but just the way you've rolled your eyes at some of my

comments shows violence you might not be physically violent but the way you're responding is in a violent way you just put a different definition on it the way you deal with your problems and I'm not saying you're right or wrong you know better than I do on how to deal with your problems what I'm saying is the best conversations I've ever had is after physical exertion with another men let's bring in our disagreer I forgot you there so the only reason I disagree um is because I think most therapists are crazy in college you know

I would see all the girls that would be psych majors and they're always insane so I think if you have a 100 therapists more will do more harm than good I can understand if you don't agree with that but that was the only reason I stayed I think if you find a good therapist man or woman it's fine very convenient you the field that most women are into shame and disregard it's like why you seem to always attack women's fields and like degrade them and say they're not like I I have that's my experience that's

my experience good for you well she was asked about uh therapy so that's the feeli that came up yeah but take itly no but I think but it's it's noticing a pattern of put a man dominated field you think she would be saying the same thing I don't I don't think so well men dominated Fields usually do better so can I piggy back on something Ariel said um he was talking about how you know men should go to therapy because it helps reduce the emotional labor that their Partners have to do and I totally agree

with that that is exactly a reason why because I can't tell you the pretty much every romantic relationship I've been in there's some element of me like teaching them how what their feelings are and especially now that I have children that's even a reason why relationships break down because when I can see a man and his behaviors are exactly parallel to my 8-year-old I'm like okay so we don't know how to deal with our feelings we don't know how to talk what's that behavior having a complete tantrum a complete meltdown because something didn't go their

way I expressed you know hey something you did really hurt me and I you know I don't like that and can we talk about that because I love you and I want to save this relationship and that turns into it hurts me that I hurt you and now I'm really sad and so they can't even be man enough to sit there and have a conversation about their feelings knowing that the reason I brought this up is because I love you so much the way you're talking right now I I it would be very difficult for

me to have a ation this to me is extremely abrasive and I would probably just walk away I love what you were saying cuz I honestly do agree with that I think a lot of men weren't taught emotional vulnerability and emotional availability and it's honestly disheartening because you see how that stunts them later on kind of like you said like they can't even maintain relationships like you again like that's just a good example right there like you are doing the emotional labor for the relationship men are not I do think that bringing it back to

therapy I read somewhere that talk therapy isn't that good for men and I I read somewhere one of the reasons for that is because men we're not taught to handle emotions seriously our emotions are discarded so we tend to discard other people's emotions and it's again very sad to see so I don't think therapy traditional talk therapy that may not work for everybody i' like what you said about martial arts I think that's you know if that works for people it works for people I think that stuff like that is important um I think men

that's why we got to hold other men accountable that's why you have to have guys who be like hey man I think the way you're treating your girl is wrong I think you're using her to too much for emotional labor I think it's important to realize that when you are asking someone to be your wife you're not looking for someone to serve you which I think some men honestly do go into marriage with that intention you're looking for a partner and I think a lot of men sort of forget that it's important for women to

become mothers will the agre please step forward odd one out Nico what's that you're the odd one out it's just statistic base they say that women are twice as prone as men to be depressed and women in their 30s without children are twice as much likely to be depressed than mothers in their 30s do you think it's in their best interest to become mothers well I guess that depends on the person but without mothers we're not going to continue the human race right so maybe that that ties up to your your last question men are

attracted to women because they there's a biological need to reproduce women tend to have more attention from men that's how they made it MH and that's how the race survived for thousands and thousands and thousands of years right but do you would you go so far as to think we should encourage all women to be mothers I don't think everybody should be parents have you looked at the kids that're being raised or the kids that don't have children like if I'm not not capable of having children I'll adopt mhm but is it for everybody I

don't think so and generally speaking it's not everything's for everybody so but only women can be mothers so it's very hard for me to say that they shouldn't be encouraged to be mothers got it all right let's bring in all of our disagre years motherhood is such a huge undertaking and I feel like there's not enough education for girls young girls and women of all the physical side effects that can happen to you like down to the smallest thing like hair loss your teeth like all the calcium everything goes to the baby everything goes to

the baby the thing that really upsets me about like motherhood and putting this pressure on women to to become mothers is like women who struggle with infertility um when you tell women that like your whole purpose in life is to be a nurturer a mother to take care of children that leaves out such a section of women that had whether it's they just naturally couldn't have babies or you know they had some sort of cancer they lost an ovary they lost something and now these women are going to be stuck with no identity just like

lost in the world because your whole purpose is to be a mother and then it's wild because when you become a mother it is not at all what it seems like you know it's not all Pinterest and cutesy what it seems like it's super overwhelming there's a ton of um hormones that run through your body postpartum depression all the things that happen to you and to put that pressure on women just because we're the only ones that can have babies would you consider being a mother one of your greatest achievements like is that what brought

you the most Joy cuz as difficult and I'm not going to argue with you that it's difficult I'll never know right we can agree to that but would you say that it brought you it's one of the experience that brought you the most Joy the most purpose the most fulfilling is the word I would use um I would say that has to be balanced with it's also the hardest scariest most terrifying thing I've ever done so it doesn't bring me the same amount of Joy because for as much joy as it brings me it brings

me Terror and fear I have three little girls one of them is disabled the the incident of you know offenses that happen to little girls that are disabled like her is super high so while yes it does bring me joy and fulfillment the amount of you know sleepless nights and stress and tears that it causes me is it needs to be right up there with in that conversation you cannot talk about one without the other I don't think it's important for women to become mothers but I do think being a mother is important but women

should have the choice to indulge in motherhood um it shouldn't be like this thing that you know perpetuate this this idea that women should always be mothers but I do think women that choose to be mothers should be respected and what they're doing is important I think that most women that don't have children will regret it but I've met enough I said most most but I have met enough women that I don't see a nurturing bone in their body and are very self-centered that I don't think would benefit like I don't think they could really

um be mothers and like raise the kids and put them first so I think it depends on the person mhm um this is very personal would you go so would you be comfortable sharing do you have your own Ambitions to become a parent yeah I want to be a mom can I can I just say um I'm actually friends with a few women who've had their ovaries removed just because of um some sort of illness or just disability and they subscribe to the notion of simply just you know motherhood is important but they they can

never be a mother that has been a thing that they've accepted a long time ago and that said they don't vehemently hate children they don't look down on anybody who has children it was just something that isn't in the card for them I do think however that if we can if we do agree that motherhood is important I think we shouldn't look down on Single Moms I think single motherhood is a very difficult thing and I think the stigma against single moms is pretty negative and kind like what you said earlier you know like it's

important for women to be moms I think that also should apply to single moms as well exactly I would I would disagree just because there are a lot of problems when you have kids that are coming from single mother homes so I think you should be sexually responsible and only have kids with someone that is going I know people I know people who personally have had children with men who they thought were really good people and then either it didn't work out either they were a widow or either something just happened to where they became

a single mom you don't know anybody's full story a lot of times women are getting pregnant from guys they're not even in real relationships with um why you blaming the mothers and not the men what about men practicing sexual responsibility you have anything to say about that I'm curious Pearl what's the point you're trying to make that most single mothers could have prevented being in that situation yeah okay I'm like the fathers couldn't have you know kept it in their pans right right I I you know men should be sexually responsible too but at the

end of the day when there's an accidental pregnancy women have the choice to get an abortion men don't have the choice to get a financial abortion not every woman has aice so women so women have more Choice okay what is stopping a woman from getting an abortion in the US laws plenty of laws plenty of law wait wait wait okay so you rent a car go to another state that's that become illegal Toole not I don't look it I don't think it's if one out of three women have had an abortion in the United States

I don't think by the time they're 45 I don't think it's that difficult to get one was just overturned in what like 20 more and there were more abortions couple years and there were more abortions the year after Row versus weed them before so your own takes a few years for a lot of theer laws like States like Arizona and Texas to actually kick in so a lot of those didn't even kick in until like spring summer of this year but what I'm advocating for is as a woman you have a ton of choice there's

Plan B there's like 20 forms of birth control you can require the guys that you're sleeping with to put on a condom you can get an abortion like there's so many choices that if you are in the situation where you are a single mother you didn't make one bad choice you made like 10 bad choices but you're not pro-choice though you think abortion is murder do you think abortion should be accessible so I am pro-life we go pro life so and that comes from because I have a um my parents they got pregnant when they

were teenagers and they had the choice to abort my brother and they ended up giving him up for adoption and so I met my brother when I was 22 and he's like this awesome guy he's married now with kids how sad would it have been if I didn't get the opportunity to meet my brother and my mom didn't choose life I I don't have children and I'm still deciding whether it's something I want but glad that now it's Being Framed more of a choice than as something you have to do like I'm I've loved hearing

your experiences because before when it was like I mean my parents are both immigrants from Iran and over there like it's just there's no like oh what if it's like something's wrong with you if you're not going to be a mom and I much rather have the people that are parents are people who want to be parents the people who have all the information and still say this is something I want to do then something that you should do otherwise you're not as much of a woman right and it's when we frame things is women

are supposed to be nurturing and then if you don't have anyone to nurture what do you like not a woman now so that's one of the reasons these like gender Norms I think are not helpful I also think we need to talk about the absolute hatred of like women who choose not to be mothers that I've seen online I feel like we should all have like some respect for people who want to choose to do what what you know what their lives is they they choose and I don't think that you know I'm not going

to shame somebody for becoming a mother and I don't think somebody should be sh shamed for being a mother I think there needs to be like just respect for every as an example uh Trump's vice president IAL pick JD Vin said like one of the biggest problems of the country was single cat ladies who aren't going to get married and not have kids he said they shouldn't be able to vote and so that's just evidence that like one of the potentially most powerful people in this country is blaming single women who aren't mothers and the

kind of pressers associated with women needing to fill the um motherhood role I feel like women are so conditioned to want to have children like going back to our earlier conversation like little girls are given a baby doll and little girls are you know kind of you know orted that way to do those types of things and so a lot of women mothers are afraid to even talk about how much motherhood is not fulfilling how lonely it feels how scary it is how it's it's not everything you thought it was going to be and there

are times where I think like life would be a lot easier if I didn't have kids right now if I didn't have this whole mess everything I did everything right I married the guy I waited a few years we had kids we did everything correctly and it still fell apart what happened I wasn't being respected in my marriage and when I decided to stand up and ask for that that wasn't given so I hadan by not respected I'm not I don't want to go into the full details of my marriage just trying to find a

way to blame you yeah you're trying to find a way because what you're trying to do is you're using yourself as an example so I'm asking question what we're supposed to do and I just don't want to get into the Nitty Gritty details of my divorce but I wasn't being respected as a human I wasn't treated as a human I was treated as a baby making machine take care of the kids make sure they're good that's it oh once having a heart problem who cares another baby oh another heart surgery who cares another baby when

you look at women as just that oh they're here for children they're here to have babies you dehumanize them Andrew Tate is having a positive influence on society if you agree please step forward that's going to be interesting you guys go for it so I don't agree with every single thing he says I don't agree with every single thing he's ever done but I think overall he has a positive message he tells guys to work hard go to the gym and he I think overall his content is positive it's mostly the delivery that people don't

like about an inju because what do you mean by that he can sound condescending to people like he can sound very abrasive to people and as she says I don't agree with everything that he that he's I don't know anybody I've ever agreed with everything that they say even me six months ago there's probably things I don't agree with now but at the same time we have to remember who the message is for too and how that message is served it's served through social media where the person that screams the loudest is going to be

heard you know you say it's positive but um what is that positive impact to say to work hard to to young men to tell them because one of the things he says a lot and I would say the same thing to young men stop worrying about women when you're young and develop yourself as an individual cuz if you look at history that is how men show value men are always judged by what they bring to the table well in my opinion comes from during his whole court case and when he was going super viral I

covered him a lot and I would do Street interviews so I would I would talk to young men that said he changed their life so I can't how am I going to say it's a negative if I'm I'm talking to the actual people yeah what would the young men say they would say they started going to the gym they started making more money um and they generally improved their life because they saw his content okay um let's bring in all of our disagrees let's start off with you just uh going against the grain on your

side okay well I say screw in Tate uh he's horrible um I'm part of several MRA spaces and we denounce him completely uh seen his video of his so-called boot camp for men where he just basically bullies men so dumb I'm not saying he doesn't have any good points ever but for the most part he's everything the men's Rights Movement should not be like and I don't think he's a good M can I uh can I also add to that I feel like men's rights activists we have a problem with grifters on our side people

who like you you mentioned earlier you understand social media they target young men yeah they target young people in general just Andrew Tate's not men not men for young I get that you think Andrew Tate's an m hold on hold on let me finish my thought what I'm saying though is the guy's a grifter he sells people the problem with MRA activists in general is there's real problems affecting men and Andrew Tate will talk about that but then he'll try to sell you on a course afterwards and that's the problem is a lot of people

on this side take advantage of young men because we're so starved to be safe seen and heard that we'll take anybody but I will say one thing though Andrew Tate is a symptom you do have to you why he get popular there has to be some reason why these young men felt a need to turn somewhere it's the same thing there's I was going to say just real quick there's an overlap between like uh like what's it called Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate's audience and there's an overlap between Hassan perer and FD signifier audience they

are positive examples of masculinity who will tell you the same things work hard and you know work on yourself there's an overlap the only problem is that men are just so starved for just somebody recognizing their emotions that they'll will just take anybody and see someone like Andrew Tate as hey at least he's fighting back at least he's fighting back they don't realize they're being taken advant exactly would you consider him an M I wouldn't have considered I don't consider him that but he does talk about men's issues from the same Manos and M is

often times have an he's someone I would want to see I would have called success I call him like success I call him aogist call him I call him a human trafficker yeah you know call him a criminal yeah um you mentioned that it may be more of an issue with delivery but he said explicit things whereas like he doesn't take the opinions of women seriously there's no way of delivering that kind of message like the issue isn't with the delivery it's the content of that and then additionally I would just say any individual who

is a human sex trafficker which if you if you listen to the videos in which he explains how he runs his business model it is exactly that stealing from um sex workers and lying to them po lying to them about um what he's paying them and how much is going towards taxes and fees Etc um any sort of model like that regardless of what they're saying is not a net positive impact on men and in fact reinforces the same kind of sexist misogynistic things that men need to get over and he's also admitted to literally

robbing men taking their money because he tricked them into thinking they were talking with actual women behind cameras he said this himself I'm not making that up I'm not I'm not debating you guys at all I said this I said that there's a lot of things that he's done I don't agree with either but to say that everything he has done is negative I could say that from anybody the the question is Andrew Tate has had a positive influence on society and so Nico what I'm asking you is you're saying you don't agree with everything

Andrew Tate does and we're hearing you know there's things that he's explicitly said he's done that it seems like everybody here would probably agree as wrong but do you think the positive outweighs that negative I'd have to split it down the middle like any choices that I make in life and say a win and a loose column and wait the result I have a friend who he out here in California and he he's got like eight months to live from brain cancer um and he his wife is paralyzed so he basically got this diagnosis and

he found out he had eight months to live I was raising money for him and the Tates donated like $155,000 to him and his wife they don't even know him and so it it's like even just like personally I don't know them well I've just met them once but you're friends with them like but she's saying I only met them once I've literally met them once in John Wayne gasy was a kids um clown at kids parties so really ugly people can still do really generous things in the world so that does not make him

a good person a broken clock can be right twice a day doesn't make it a clock that you want to follow when you give someone like Andrew Tate that has such a disgusting message that disparages so many people in the world and he treats people so horribly he should not have any sort of platform because not only is he not making the world positive he is making the world a much much uglier Place starting with Our Youth and little boys that we're trying to raise to have feelings and to be decent contributing members of society

Tate is getting in their head since I do only fans I make it a point I do not use Chatters if someone's paying to talk to me I will not defraud them and have some person in Bangladesh pretend to be me as a guy and talk to them Andrew Tate had no problem scamming any of these men I have more respect for men than Andrew Tate does not even just women for a men I would never scam a man whereas Andrew Tate was just like oh these losers I'm just going to make them think they're

talking to the this girl and find a way to emotionally manipulate men emotionally manipulate vulnerable men into giving these women this money that then he's just taking exactly what are you doing he makes fun of men for being broke he makes fun of men for not having you know a bunch of women he hates men he is the worst male Advocate you could ever have he's a grifter the men's Rights Movement is not as important as the feminist movement agreer step forward um I don't think that it's to say that men's issues are less important

than uh women's issues because I think that feminism adequately addresses both issues and I think that there are feminists who um May in fact contribute uh to some of you know pervasive attitudes towards men like I always tell girls when they say things like oh he's not a real man unless he's like making six figures or something like that I'm like that's actually harmful and that's something that like you should probably it's in your best interest to also not um perpetuate and so um the reason why I would also say that the men's rights activist

movement is less important is because I and I think even to some of the you know more genuine uh men's rights activists who do have good intentions they'll acknowledge that it is filled with toxicity and genuine misogyny that it has a close overlap with things like uh the red pill manosphere pickup artists Etc um and feminism has been here as a historical movement and has achieved so much and so it's ultimately the uh movement that we should all align with um for you know gender equality and the end of gender depression yeah I completely agree

I mean like I know we a lot most of us except maybe Pearl have denounced podcasts like fresh and fit but they literally say number one's men's podcast so how much of these spaces are actually filled with that toxicity and I mean the the definition of feminism that's most pervasive is the social political and economic equality between the Sexes so we I think real feminists are not the ones perpetuating those negative stereotypes of oh men need to be like this men need to be providers you're not a man if you can't do this you're not

man if you can do that and so I think that real feminism kind of eliminates the need for that for for men's rights because we just want everybody to be treated as individuals instead of um you know treating them differently based on their gender yeah yeah I feel like a lot of people conflate feminism and mandry and they just think oh if you're a feminist that means you hate men and you want them all to you know just suffer and you know have a horrible life and I feel like the people who think that that's

really their projection because that's what their their position is like when you're a men's rights activist and you're like no and you're so against feminism it's because you think feminism is trying to replace the patriarchy with a matriarchy and we're going to rule just like they have but that's not the goal of feminism the goal of feminism is so that everybody can be the same it's also worth mentioning feminism is a is a diverse uh philosophy and lens of analysis um you know Susan B Anthony's feminism is very different from Judith Butler's feminism is very

different from Angela Davis Simone like they all have a variety of different approaches in the way that they tackle issues related um to gender sex and you know the meaning of masculinity and femininity and so instead of like out of protest or wanting to address men's issues attempting to create a new movement as in opposition to an all a movement that already exists and has existed for a particular reason it's it just makes more sense to um speak within the variety of perspectives within this movement that already exists a lot of you making the argument

that feminism should be working for everybody so do you think you should be inviting men's rights activists to feminist spaces is that something you would advocate for when men come in and they want to listen and they want the same things we want of course we would want them into our spaces but a lot I just I don't see a lot of them coming in with that um mindset gotcha let's bring in our disagreer and Isaac let's start off with you so I agree with everything my fellow feminists are saying but when I entered this

discussion I was looking at male like um rights activist from a more antagon you know antagonistic point of view but the more I thought about it the more I realized that we could actually work together yep I think feminism and men's rights on paper yep are trying to dismantle the patriarchy the system that says that men must provide that you know women should only get the kids or like you know men are like more dangerous and more culpable for their crime so they should be sentenced twice as harshly as women if we all work together

we could actually make a better tomorrow so I don't I think feminism is more important in the sense that we had the feminism to open this discussion we needed it um but men's activist can join the conversation if they have well intentions to me I feel like kind of what I alluded to earlier women do so much emotional labor for men men don't do anything for women to me I'm on this side I agree with almost everything you guys have said this whole conversation and the reason for that is the reason why I'm still on

this side is because there's a lot of what you were alluding to a lot of manosphere a lot of toxicity on this side every man every movement that I've seen that has mostly meant in it honestly has been mostly red pill mostly manosphere I want to that there are men's rights activists who for the most part want to work in Tangent with feminism because ultimately you guys do so much and you guys have so much on your plate that obviously the men that do feel that feminism maybe hasn't done enough for them that's where I

think men's rights activists can come in pick up the slack that maybe you guys are too busy to deal with ultimately because there are serious problems that women are facing and I think men could pick up the slack on our end for once and actually help women I suspect there will be comments that say that you are not a men's rights activist of what would your response be if we just anticipate that com I mean it's the same way that I would argue feminism is such a WID spread uh men's rights activism is such a

widespread uh most of the people that I follow the FD signifiers the Hassan pikers those guys uh I again I'm on this side because I think that there has to be some examples of masculinity that isn't against feminism that isn't blaming women for everything you alluded to that earlier most of the men's right just blame women for everything I don't support that but I do see the pain and that's ultimately what the problem is on this side it's mostly just grifters it's mostly just loudmouth people who realize that young men young impressionable men are very

easy targets and they snuff out y'all's actual and they snuff out the actual people like again like my friends even ask me like why are you even on this side I just told him like because I ultimately know that there has to be some people in the audience who don't want be sucked into the manosphere who don't want to be tox but they want to feel heard they want to feel seen I'm not I'm not trying to sell anybody a course I'm not trying to sell anybody my social media I don't do any of that

stuff I literally just want men to feel heard and it just sucks that most of the people on this side they're so close because they can acknowledge men's pain but the solutions they offer are just messed up or they're paywalled just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them wrong in the same way we were talking about um therapy earlier sure you don't see therapy the same way I see it no but I agre does that no no but hold on does it make it automatically wrong no and this is why I don't think

you're you're men's right activist but that doesn't mean that you're not sure it's not because I think so that you're not but the point in the matter is there's a there's a lot of different ways to approach this to find a solution to the same problem it's just it sounds to me that whatever you don't align with and I'm I'm talking about you and a lot on your on your side as well if you guys don't agree with it it's wrong I never said that just having a conversation with you guys is extremely hard because

we get cut off and I'm talking about me I'm not talking about anybody else on this panel but who really can say today that women need feminism name me one right I have as a man that they don't as a woman bodily autonomy there may not necessarily be a legal deser that doesn't mean that feminism's obsolete men's rights activists typically don't acknowledge patriarchy in the ways that it actually hurts men but we disagree with feminist theory on patriarchy and the thing is I don't think a woman's movement should have the Monopoly on defining a What

men's issues are and B how to address them because I will say Decades of experience feminism does not adequately address men's issues when I ask feminists what are you going to do about the boys education Gap half the time they don't even know what it is what can they but that's not fair like I read Richard Reeves of Bo to men there's a lot lot of feminists on this side a lot of the issues you say like the draft circumcision feminists aren't like I don't want anyone to be drafted I don't think men or women

there are some feminists I agree with yeah so my point is a lot of feminism we're trying to minimize those sex differences and what I feel is the majority of men's rights AC activists are trying to emphasize the differences between men there's a lot of feminists I agree with but when you look at feminist organizations a lot of the laws they Lobby for are not in the name of equality and feminists have supported gendered policies example like the duth model which are not equal I'm part of Ave movement called well organization called the ncfm National

Coalition for men very very solid group very diverse group men and women I would say when you get past those big YouTubers and look at like Grassroots men's organizations uh we're very much about the issues and we're not just about a backlash of feminism so I feel like I acknowledged that that you guys a lot of you guys are in good faith I think what I was talking about was that I feel like we live in an echo chamber where we see the other side as the enemy you see us is like you know saying

that men do not deserve any rights um and we you know you look at us as saying that women deserve all the rights but I I don't really think that that's productive men and women are supposed to go together there's no rule to that at all so when you say that you know they go together that's just your own subjective opinion so is everything you've said up to now it's because at the end of the day when you have a group of people when the men want it to be about them they can do that

they can just be stronger be bigger be louder take over and make it about them so if you don't com like purposely carve out for women it doesn't happen because you would think Common Sense would tell you that when the Constitution says all men created equal that they meant humans the but the fact that women have had to fight to get the right to you know the gendered laws there are gendered laws so that women could vote I think that's a fair one because we had to gain that right same thing with discrimination against credit

and getting bank accounts and all that stuff like the some of the gendered laws are there because the men have been standing in our way damn right so my final thought is as a woman we have the right to do whatever we want and I don't know what really feminists are crying about we can go get an abortion if we want one we can go get birth control we can go work I don't I can't think of anything we can't do so to me feminism is just a lot of crying and whining over nothing it's

funny cuz I actually like most of my life well I someone said are you a feminist I would be like yeah but I didn't really have to get like adamant about it until I switched my career into doing only fans and was constantly attacked by again I'm not used to and I I love like the two of you and what you do because I do think that there needs to be a space for actual men like Hassan like you like you who are giving a positive example of masculinity okay well whatever I don't I don't

watch a moment a narrow distorted view of masculinity and I feel like I almost had to become a feminist in opposition to so much toxicity and it is unfortunately the case that the big names are the on that are having the most impact I would love for you guys to be able to get more of these young men away from sneo away from fresh and fit away from Andrew tap but the unfortunate truth is whatever they're spewing out to these kids is more popular and because of that than people like me I was like okay

all these girls are going on these podcast and they're just being like on because they don't have the verbal ability or maybe like the ability I have to combat the rhetoric so I had to almost now everyone's like oh my God you're such a big feminist but it's because I had to do it in opposition to a men's rights movement that came about to BAS basally on us a man's right activist movement that doesn't care about men mind you you guys care about men I could tell yall care about men all right thank you all

for participating in this discussion I know it was hard it got heated I would I think it'd be good shake hands acknowledge each other leave comments in good faith please thank you for watching Middle Ground suggest more topics in the comments for future episodes and thank you all all right that's wrap awesome thank you that was cool thanks hey it was good uh good being with you guys definitely definitely good be with you guys your you well Shake real fast meting you as well you ever seen The Walking Dead nice meeting you dud you look

like just like one of the main