Jocko Willink: How to Become Resilient, Forge Your Identity & Lead Others | Huberman Lab Podcast 104

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. [MUSIC PLAYING] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today, my guest is Jocko Willink. Jocko Willink is a retired Navy SEAL and author of numerous important books on leadership and team dynamics and the host of the Jocko Podcast. During his 20-year career with the US Navy, Jocko served with SEAL Team 3 as commander of Task Unit Bruiser in Ramadi, Iraq, and elsewhere in the Middle East, as well as deployments

in Asia and Europe. After retiring from the Navy, Jocko used his experience and knowledge gleaned from his time in the SEAL teams as a way to develop tools that anybody can use to develop their leadership skills, both for leading themselves and for leading others. That took the form of several important books, the first of which was published in 2015 and is entitled Extreme Ownership: How US Navy Seals Lead and Win. He has also authored several books for kids about leadership, personal development and how to navigate various aspects of life. I've read both Extreme Ownership and

The Way of the Warrior Kid, and I found them to be immensely useful in terms of actionable information and understanding of oneself and different kinds of relationships, both in and out of the workplace. Typically, guests on the Huberman Lab Podcast are scientists and/or clinicians. It was some time ago that I was a guest on the Jocko Podcast. And during the course of our conversation on his podcast, we quickly realized that many of the science-based tools that my laboratory has focused on and that I've used over the years and shared on the Huberman Lab Podcast had

direct overlap and parallel with many of the tools that Jocko and other members of the SEAL teams had arrived at independently-- that is, without knowledge of the underlying science. And in fact, he had many more tools that he had incorporated during his years in the SEAL teams as well as in business leadership, in family and elsewhere in life, that I quickly realized it would be an enormously valuable conversation to have him on this podcast in order to share those tools with the general public. During today's episode, we discuss numerous tools that Jocko has taught and

used over the years in a number of different contexts, including tools for generating more physical energy and for generating more focus and cognitive energy. And for navigating sticking points, that is how to deal with lack of motivation, how to deal with difficult relationships in the workplace and elsewhere. And perhaps most importantly, how to think about and navigate the self. In fact, we spend quite a bit of time talking about this notion of the self and one's self identity and how self identity plays into our ability to engage in actions of specific types consistently over time,

where it can hold us back, how to gain better perspective and how to help others gain better perspective so that we can work better with them and them with us. We also go deep into the likely scientific mechanisms underlying why the tools that Jocko teaches and uses are so effective. In fact, one thing that you'll immediately notice is that Jocko was writing things down and I was writing things down throughout the conversation. And that just reflects the fact that he's not just an immensely powerful teacher, he's also a practitioner and an avid learner. He's always

seeking knowledge. So we kick back and forth our ideas about what likely does and does not underlie different tools and techniques, focusing, of course, mostly on what works in the practical sense in the world. What I can assure you is that by the end of today's episode, thanks to Jocko's immense generosity and curiosity, you will come away with a large number of tools and much richer understanding of how to navigate and enhance mental health, physical health and performance in all aspects of life. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from

my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Maui Nui. Maui Nui he is venison that is by far the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat commercially available. Maui Nui he spent nearly a decade building a USDA-certified wild harvesting system to help balance invasive deer populations on the island of Maui. The solution they built turns the

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my daytime wakefulness. If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman and check out their Pod Pro cover and save $150 at checkout. Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, and selected countries in the EU and Australia. Again, that's EightSleep.Com/Huberman to save $150 at checkout. Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the exact ratios of electrolytes are in LMNT, and those are sodium, magnesium, and potassium but it has no sugar. I've talked many

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not. You can have them as kind of a tea, they're delicious. And all of their flavors are delicious. For the ones that you drink typically cold, I like the raspberry flavor the watermelon flavor, and frankly, I like the citrus flavor as well. They're all delicious. So again, if you want to try LMNT, you can go to LMNT, drinklmnt.com/huberman. The Huberman Lab podcast is now partnered with Momentous supplements. To find the supplements we discuss on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to livemomentous-- spelled O-U-S-- livemomentous.com/huberman. And I should just mention that the library of those

supplements is constantly expanding. Again, that's livemomentous.com/huberman. And now for my discussion with Jocko Willink. Jocko Willink, welcome. JOCKO WILLINK: Thanks for having me, man. - I'm super excited and super happy to have you here. - I'm glad to be here. I know that you and I did five and 1/2 hours on my podcast. So schedule is clear, let's go. - Let's go. And actually-- and people will see the Jocko GO drinks. This is not some sort of promotional by me, but these are the energy drinks I drink. So this could be called the bring-your-own-GO podcast.

It is the energy drink I drink. And no, I'm not told to promote that or paid to promote that, it's just the one that I drink. So there you go. No pun intended. I was just saying to our producer a moment ago that rarely do I sit down and do a podcast with somebody that's skilled in podcasting. Lex Fridman would be the only person that I've had on this podcast, I believe, who's also a podcaster. Since you're a podcaster and many other things, I confess I'm a little bit intimidated. - Well, it's a weird thing

to actually call a skill. Because it's something that I just kind of started doing. It's something that you just kind of started doing. It's something that Lex just kind of started doing. And I never practiced it, I didn't sit down before my first podcast and think about how I should deliver things. I just kind of did it, so. Maybe it's just luck more than skill. - Well, you and I actually go back further than that conversation that we had on your podcast. I think it might have been 2014, 2015, and you were on the Tim

Ferriss podcast. And at the time I was living with my girlfriend, we had moved from San Diego to the Bay Area. We were living in this little, tiny apartment in a basement in Oakland, trying to save up to buy a place or rent a place that was decent to live in. And we both knew a lot of team guys, she knew more team guys than I did in San Diego. Had dated a few, just to be direct. Great woman, those guys were cool to me, mostly. And I remember when I saw the photo on the

top card for Tim's podcast. It was your face. And I said, do you know this guy from San Diego. And she goes, nope. But if you had to draw a Navy SEAL, that's what you'd draw. So I think for a lot of people, you embody their notion of a number of different things, some of which you talk about. But some of which, when you open up a bit and really get specific about work in the military and work in daily life and what it is to be you, but really, what it is to be a

human being, some important contradictions also emerge, right? Obviously, discipline is a theme that people associate with you, right? In my view and I think in the view of a lot of people, you embody discipline. So today, I definitely want to talk about routines, but also mindsets. But also things that you do and ways that you approach things that might not contradict, but not be so obvious to people. Might be a little bit counterintuitive. And in addition to that, you have a lot of different aspects to your life. In addition to running businesses, you're a family

man, you have children and married a long time. And so you have a lot of knowledge from different domains of life. So with your permission, I'd like to dive into all of them over the next 26 hours. - Let's dive. - Great. I'm fascinated by this idea of sense of self. I feel like all of us can look back to a time early in life when we first had some experience. Could be in art class, could be fishing, could be sport, doesn't really matter what the exact experience was. But where we first realized that there

are really cool things in the world. Like something that turned us on at the level of excitement. Or maybe scared us, or something like that. Do you have any recollection of such an event? Maybe not the first one, but you ever remember hearing or seeing something as a young kid, and maybe you could tell us how young, and just thinking, yeah, more of that please. [JOCKO CHUCKLES] - A lot of times when people ask questions along this line of when was there a moment-- when was there a moment that you realized discipline or when was

there a moment you realized leadership or when was there a moment you realized detachment, kind of like your question, when was there a moment you realized, for lack of a better way of saying it, I'm a person. I'm a person with my own thoughts and I can make things happen. And for me, all those answers are usually fairly gradual. There's a little thing that indicates, you get a clue and then you move a little bit further down that road. Then you get another clue and then you move a little bit further down that road and

you get another clue. So that's what I would say, for me, life was like when I was a little kid. I was kind of slowly discovering that I was a person, I was a human. I remember my mom took me shopping. I was probably about 10 years old and I needed to get pants for school. And my mom took me shopping. And when I went into the store, there was a girl that was-- I don't know what they're called in a store. A retail sales girl? She was probably about 16. And I started chatting her

up. And I kind of recognize it a little bit but I sort of didn't too and I just was chatting to this girl and I was making her laugh. And I was having a good time with the whole thing and putting on the pants and spinning around, and she was laughing. And I remember when we left the store with the pants and my mom was sort of talking to me about the fact that, "What were you trying to do to that girl?" And I was thinking to myself, well, I kind of liked that girl, she

was pretty. And I don't know why that popped into my head. But I just remember thinking, hey man, there's a whole world out there and let's go make it happen. - Yeah, it's a great story. Because I think it really speaks to this thing that you mentioned, which is that when we first start to realize we have a sense of self, it has something to do with cause and effect on the world, like we can have an impact in some way on things outside of us, outside of our home. Lately I've been reading a lot

of psychology and I've been listening to some of your content and I definitely want to talk to you about a study that you covered related to these-- it's a brutal experiment with these kids that either had stutter or didn't have stutter. I want to get into that a little bit later. But what we do and how we treat people and how we receive feedback and give feedback has a big impact. But I think some of that happens just in our own relationship to things in the world. The older Hungarian psychologist, I'm learning, had this idea

of two kinds of people. They literally thought there were two kinds of people. There are generators and projectors. And generators are people that are just-- from a very young age, they realize they can impact other people, positively, negatively. And they want to create things in the world, they want to generate stuff. And they go wow, I can actually build stuff and break stuff. Blow stuff up, maybe, but also help things. And then there are these projectors that like to just reflect on what they see. And they made the really important point, I think, that it's

not the generators are good and projectors are bad. The world needs both, that they really work in a kind of symbiotic way. But your story captures the essence of what it is to be a generator, which is that by doing certain things, you can have an impact. And it feeds back to you and it's likely that they receive something from it as well. - Yeah. And where this all came to fruition, as I now piece together as you're talking through this stuff-- Look, when I joined the military, you join the military and you get a

blank slate. So no one cares where you came from, no one cares what you did. You were the captain of the football team, captain of the soccer team, no one cares. No one cares what your grades were, no one cares what you got on the SATs. No one cares about anything. You're a blank slate. And then with that blank slate, it is, hey, if you do this thing, if you perform this task and you perform it well, you will get recognition. You will hopefully get more control over your own destiny, which is the ultimate in

compensation for human beings. To have more control over your own destiny is the ultimate compensation. You and I were talking before we hit record, you can have all the money in the world, but if you don't control what you're doing every day or at least you don't control most of what you're doing, then it's not worth it. The reason people try and make money is so they can have more autonomy in their life. And so in the military, it becomes very clear-- and it became very clear to me very quickly that if I performed well,

I actually got a lot more freedom with what I did. Even in boot camp. If you pass an inspection in boot camp, you don't have to redo your locker or you don't have to make your bed again because you did it right the first time. And so you have an extra 15 minutes. And so for me, really, that's when I started to realize, oh, what I'm doing right now is it going to impact not only what's going to happen to me in the next hour, but in the next two years, three years, five years. And

I think that's the biggest miss that we have when we're growing up. And I know you had your challenges and tribulations as you were growing up because you didn't realize, oh, what I'm doing right now is going to affect where I'm going to be in the future. And it didn't happen until you were out of high school, when you went to junior college and you're like, oh wait a second, I can actually put my life together in a positive way. When you're 14, you're thinking, hey what am I going to do tomorrow. That's basically future

operations or-- what am I going to do tomorrow. - Would've been far ahead for me at 14. I was like, where am I going to get the Slurpee, which curves am I going to hit skateboarding and where are we going to play video games tonight or what girls are we going to hang out with. That was kind of the mindset at 14. - Yeah. And then at some point, you learned, and so did I, oh, the actions that I take now are either going to positively impact my future or they're to negatively impact my future.

And the more I focused on doing things that are going to positively impact my future, the better my life became. And I think that's a very huge lesson to learn that I know I didn't figure out for quite some time. - Yeah the idea of investments and withdrawals, or understanding that early in life in terms of health behaviors and intellectual behaviors. And your point about the military is a really interesting one, I never thought about the military that way, that there's this blank slate when you get in there. And before we started, we were talking

a little bit about the kinds of mindsets and people that the military attracts. And I'd love for you to elaborate on that again. You mentioned something interesting, this notion of garrison. - Interesting word in its own right. What kind of people do you think the military attracts? And then within the military, do you start to see some kind of predictable bifurcations, where certain people go down one track and other people go down another? I have a few friends from the SEAL teams, as we both know. And I've heard sometimes about the distinction between officers and

enlisted guys, this kind of thing. But maybe this question I'm asking is more across the board for all of military. And for people listening, whether or not they are interested in military or not for their own life, I think there's an interesting lesson, this idea of who is attracted to the military. Is it like people who want to instill order on themselves or is it people who want to instill order on other people, or both? - Yeah. There's a really good book and I ended up doing about four podcasts on this book, which is called

The Psychology of Military Incompetence. And when I first saw that-- - What an amazing title. - I know. And when I first saw that title, I thought to myself, oh, this is some academic that's going to look at the military and bash it. But I did a little research and it turned out that the guy that had written the book-- I can't think of his name right now-- he was a guy that had served in World War II, was wounded. I mean, this guy understood what he was talking about. And it's really an obvious concept

once you think about it. The basic premise is this, the military, when you look at it from the outside, it's this orderly place. It's a place where everything has a place. It's a place where if you have a certain rank on your shoulder, you will command respect and people have to listen to you. That's what it looks like. So it's an attractive place for people that have an authoritarian mindset, for people that want to just, hey, don't question what I'm saying, just shut up and do what I tell you to do. There's people that love

that. There's people that want to live like that. You've worked for them, I've worked for them. We've experienced those type of people throughout our lives. That authoritarian mindset that just want to bark orders and have people listen to them. And so when those people are 14 years old or 16 years old or 18 years old, they look at the military and they see a uniform. And they see people saluting and they see orders being carried out. And they think, that's where I'm going to go. And I can get the respect that I deserve. And the

military certainly attracts people like that. And those people that have that highly-disciplined and orderly mindset can do well inside the military, especially in garrison. Again, we were talking about this earlier, the word garrison. I don't think there's a civilian equivalent to this word, but it basically means the noncombat situation. So when you're out on the parade field, when you're going through schooling where there's no combat involved, when you're marching. Those kind of things, we call that garrison. It's in the rear. It's not in combat. And the people with an authoritarian mindset actually do pretty well

in garrison situations. Why? Because things are orderly and you can predict what's going to happen. And you do get a certain issue of gear and that gear is going to be delivered on time and you're going to shoot this number of rounds down at the range. And everything is going to go according to plan, that's what garrison is. And so those people join the military, they're attracted to that and they end up doing well in peacetime. Now unfortunately for them, combat is a lot different. Nothing goes the way it's supposed to go. The bullets don't

get delivered on time, the enemy has a vote on the way things are going to unfold. And you end up in combat being in very chaotic situations. So the type of person that thrives in combat has a more open mind, has a more flexible mind, is paying more attention to the input that they're receiving as opposed to someone with an authoritarian mindset. They don't listen to anybody else. They make up their own mind, they bark orders. With someone that has a more open mindset, they're listening, they're taking input, they're evolving their plan. And those type

of people excel in a combat situation. Now unfortunately, and this is sort of the stereotype too, you take that dog of war and you put him back into a garrison environment, he doesn't do well. He's not showing up on time for the inspection, didn't get his haircut, he doesn't have his weapon cleaned the way it's supposed to be cleaned because he's got his weapon ready for combat, not ready for inspection. And so you get this-- there are these two different types of people. And of course, with those two different types of people, there's degrees going

one direction or other. But what you hope for is someone that can play the game on the garrison side and yet when it comes time to go into combat, they can also open their mind, be flexible, be creative. That's what you really want is you want someone that is very good at solving problems. And to do that, you need to have a creative, open mind to figure out how we're going to deal with something. So I think that's the stereotype. The stereotype is that everyone in the military is sort of robotic and falling into the

hierarchy, and we bark orders and people follow orders. And that's just not true. There is an element of truth to it but it's not the whole truth. And certainly, if you look at it history, the people that excel in combat are the people that maybe have a little bit of a rebellious streak, people that are just more creative and more open minded. - Some of my friends from the SEAL teams will sometimes throw out stereotypes about the different divisions in the military. Is there any truth to this idea that Air Force types are one way

and Marines are one way and Navy is one way, army is a certain way? Sort of a general contour of personality or is that just kind of inside ball, joking around? - It's a little bit of both. I mean certainly, the Marine Corps is steeped in tradition. And if you make a guess at what a marine-- if you had to guess what a marine is going to be like, you're probably going to be pretty close. Marines have an incredible program to indoctrinate their people into the culture of the Marine Corps. And the Marine Corps has

an incredibly strong culture. It's a powerful culture. I love the Marine Corps, I've worked with the Marine Corps a ton and they're outstanding. As a generality, certainly you could make those assumptions about the Marines in general. Now, does that mean that every Marine is the same? No, absolutely not. Same thing with the army, same thing with the Air Force, same thing with the Navy. You've got these kind of stereotypes that exist for a reason. It's interesting too. One of my friends named Ben Milligan wrote an incredible book called By Water Beneath the Walls, which I've

given him a huge hassle about because it's the worst title of all time. But it's certainly the best book written about the SEAL teams' history and where the SEAL teams came from. And it's interesting, it's something that I had heard from a SEAL officer that had given a speech years ago at his change of command. And what he said was he was trying to emphasize why the SEAL teams were good. And one of the things he said was in the army-- and he was talking historically-- he goes, hey, in the army, if you start to

lose a battle, you can just retreat and run away. In the Navy, traditionally, we're fighting on board a ship. And if that ship-- we can't run away. We're fighting and if we lose, we die. So SEALS can't quit. It was this, a little over the top, expression. But when you take that a little bit further, when you look at the history of the Navy. If we were in the Navy 150 years ago, you would have to go on deployment. You would take your ship and you would sail somewhere and you wouldn't be able to talk

to me anymore. So you would have to understand what it is you were trying to accomplish and then just go out there and make it happen. That's decentralized command. And that's something that exists in the SEAL teams without question, very decentralized command. And that's one of the absolute strengths of the SEAL teams is you've got leaders at every level inside the organization. That if they don't know exactly-- if they're not told what to do, they're going to go, OK, I haven't been told what to do but I'm going to go figure it out. And that's

one of the strengths of the SEAL teams. We have more doctrine now, but when I came in the SEAL teams, there was no doctrine. It was all word of mouth. And so the army and the Marine Corps, if you have to conduct an ambush, you can pull out a manual and you can look up how to conduct an ambush-- platoon ambush, how to conduct it-- and it's all written very clear. And they're great documents. That's the FM 7-8 infantry platoon and squad, I think is the army doctrine. - I can see the little neurons in

your hippocampus firing in sequence. - Yeah. - It's embedded in there forever. - And it's a great manual. And you can pull that thing out and you have a place to start from. In the SEAL teams, we didn't have that at all. So you would hear from your platoon chief, this is how you conduct an ambush. And he had heard it from his platoon chief, who heard it from his platoon chief, who heard it from his platoon chief, and that platoon chief was in Vietnam. So it's getting passed down but you can make adjustments to

it. And you can alter the plan a little bit because hey, the terrain is different, or hey, the night vision we now have. So there's changes that we can make because there's no doctrine. So not having any doctrine, in many ways, is a strength. Also it can be a weakness. Because if you've got a new platoon commander that's never done an ambush before and he has no idea what he's doing, this platoon chief has been out of the loop for a long time and he doesn't know what he's doing, there's no reference. So there's strengths

and weaknesses, just like any characteristic. Everybody's characteristics, you've got strength and you've got weaknesses. And your weaknesses can be strengths and your strength can be weaknesses. To get back to your original question, are there stereotypes inside of each of the military branches? Sure. But are there outliers in each of the military branches? There are absolutely. And that's why you can't judge a book by its cover. - For people listening to this who are not in the military, maybe have some military lineage in their family or not, but who want to understand a little bit better

about how structure and lack of structure can both support being effective in life, in relationships, in daily life, in fitness, in business, in school-- I think those are the big domains-- in creative endeavors. I think it would be useful for them to understand a little bit about how you in particular balance discipline and structure with, dare I say, lack of discipline and structure. - Well, you could actually just say the word freedom, because that's what it turns into. - Or maybe even play. I bring this up in part because I've seen some posts that you

put up of you playing the guitar with friends or music. One of them was a tribute to someone who either was killed in combat or had passed away. So these moments of connection between people sometimes are working together, but sometimes are in relaxation and play, in these kinds of things. I think it was a really important post for people to see that while Jocko Willink kicks back with a guitar, not trying to take over stages-- maybe you are. Maybe you have a plan. If anyone could do it, you'd probably be the one. But what is

the balance for you in terms of structure and lack of structure? And I'm not going to ask for your daily routine. We know that you get up early, you train. But I do have some specific questions that I think would be helpful in putting some meat on the notions about you. And again, this isn't a pick into your life but more to grab-- well, it's to pick into your life. The-- so a question I asked you in the lobby because it's one that having seen your content for a long time and really benefited from it,

I was curious. You get up early at about 4:30, you train every morning, how long do you train for? And is there any global structure to that? And, of course, everyone needs different programs, but is it like weight training one day, cardio training the next day, or you're combining them? Is it always an hour or is it always half an hour? I think people would benefit from getting a little bit more understanding of what that looks like for you, with the caveat that everyone has different needs levels of background, et cetera, but I'm intensely curious

about this and I'm certain I'm not the only one. JOCKO WILLINK: So do you want to talk about weightlifting or rock and roll on the guitar? ANDREW HUBERMAN: I want to talk about-- let's your let's talk about the most structured first part of your day, and then let's talk about the least structured part of your day, at least the part that you can share with the world. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, waking up early and I'm going to work out. And depending on what's going on that day, if I have an early flight, I might work out

for eight minutes. I might go in and do 2,000 meters on the rower, get a sweat going as hard as I can, and then I'm done, and-- because I've got to go catch a flight. So that could be happening. Maybe I'm supposed to go surfing in the morning, I wake up, the waves are terrible, and so now I've got nothing to do. I planned out to be surfing for two or three hours, and now I'm not going to go surfing, so I'm going to go lift and I'm going to go play in the gym and

do a bunch of stuff. I'm going to spend two or three hours in there. I love doing that. So the workout could be anywhere between what I just say 8 minutes and 3 hours, and it could be anything in between. I fully enjoy the physical aspect of working out. So if I have more time to spend in the gym, I'll spend it. I remember my dad saying at one point, if I retired I wouldn't know what to do. And I was thinking to myself, are you serious right now? If I didn't have anything to do,

I'd spend six hours a day in the gym, I'd spend four hours doing jiu-jitsu I could fill my day-- I could fill every day with just physical activity, things that I just like doing. So wake up early, get a sweat going. And do I lift? Yes. Do I do cardio? Yes. Do I run? Yes. Do I sprint? Yes. Do I lift heavy weights? Yes. Do I swing kettlebells? Yes. I do everything and anything, and I enjoy all of it, and I'm not really good at any of it. I'm not really good at any one aspect

of physical activity. There's people that are infinitely better at me in every aspect, and I'm not just talking about, Oh, this guy's a world-class, no. There's like a guy named Fred down at the gym that can deadlift more than me, there was a guy-- when I was at SEAL Team 2, there was a guy who was, it's probably 5'7", and he looked kind of chubby, and he was older than me, and he could run faster than me, and he could bench more than me. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Those guys are out there. JOCKO WILLINK: It was just

so bothersome. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, they're out there. They've got some engine in there related to something. I mean, I do think there are genetic differences in terms of people's resilience and workout, but even just grip strength is highly, highly subject to like genetic influences, maximum grip strength. But of course, there's a huge range in what people can develop. But I guarantee your grip strength is greater than mine. People ask me this all the time, who would win in arm wrestling between you and Jocko. JOCKO WILLINK: You know there's a lot of technique in arm wrestling.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I have to imagine they're putting their body behind it, they're putting their back in that. JOCKO WILLINK: There's a legitimate technique in arm wrestling-- ANDREW HUBERMAN: Which worked for me yet. JOCKO WILLINK: No, if we could bring a female arm wrestler in here that knows how to arm wrestle, because I don't know how to arm wrestle either, and she would beat both of us because there's a lot more technique in arm wrestling than most people recognize. There's all these little games that are going on. There's all this little arm position that you get.

So just like everything else, it's technique. There's a lot of technique in arm wrestling. ANDREW HUBERMAN: That's good to know. I didn't know that about arm wrestling. I think we all start off with some genetic predispositions, both good and bad, for different things, and then there's-- as far as we know, there's a huge range based through neuroplasticity and muscle adaptation, et cetera, in what we can obtain. So I never want genetic predisposition to serve as a barrier. No one knows also what the upper limits of any of these things are. And some of the best

examples we know from sport and certainly from academia are people who knew they were at a disadvantage and just worked 10 times harder than everybody else because they had an ax to grind with their genetic disadvantage, which is really cool at the face of it. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Athletic Greens. Athletic Greens, now called AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs. I've been taking Athletic Green since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast. The reason I started

taking Athletic Greens and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health. Our gut is very important. It's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system, and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long term health. And those probiotics in Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic health. In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens vitamins and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional

needs are met, and it tastes great. If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman, and they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road in the car, on the plane, et cetera, and they'll give you a year supply of vitamin D3/K2. Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year supply of vitamin D3/K2. So you get the training, and do you track your training in a detailed way? Are you keeping track of lists and-- JOCKO

WILLINK: So I write down what I do, and I'll write down-- I write down what I do every day. And that way, I can go back and say, what was I doing back then? Because I might go through some phase where I'm trying to do more pull ups or I'm trying to deadlift more and I'm trying-- whatever the thing is, I'll go back into-- because I get bored of deadlifting after a while. And let's face it, if you just want to be a good deadlifter, you're not going to be that fast. You're going to be

slow on long runs, so you don't want to go too deep into deadlifting. And you also don't want to be so good at long runs that you can't deadlift a good amount of weight. So I kind of go through phases, and I'll get into something for a while, and then I'll get into something else. So I do log down what I'm doing so that way I can look back and say, Oh, dang, I'm not even close to as strong as I used to be, need to get back to that. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm fascinated by the

concept of energy. I think it's one of the most interesting aspects in all of biology, all of psychology, and all of life. And when I say energy, I mean the distinction between being back on your heels, flat footed, or forward center of mass. And I get the impression, and I think everyone gets the impression that you're somebody with a lot of energy, and I wonder whether or not you wake up with a lot of energy and you feel like you have to burn it off with this physical activity and work and other demands in your

life, or do you find that you wake up and your energy is kind of neutral, and exercise and physical activity gives you energy? Because I think this is one of the key things out there, I think, that acts as a barrier for people doing more with their body because maybe they don't want to tire themselves out or maybe they don't feel like they have enough energy to begin with. It's also feeds into this idea that some people just have a lot of energy. They're really physical, and other people aren't. So let's just say on most

days do you wake up feeling like you want to burn off energy, build energy, what is exercise mean to you? And then maybe we can talk about some of the underlying stuff going on there because I think we both might find it interesting. JOCKO WILLINK: I would say it's both. There's no way I could sit here and say, oh, yeah, every day that alarm clock goes off, and I'm like, oh, yeah, let's rock and roll. No, certainly that's not the case. It's also certainly not the case that every day I'm like, oh, god, not again.

No, I'd say most of the time the alarm clock goes off, and I don't think a bunch. When my alarm clock goes off, I don't think a bunch. I don't debate with myself. I'm not negotiating. The thing goes off, and I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. Sort of robotic. Now this much I can say, when you go and work out, you're going to feel better. You will get energy from working out. That is a guarantee. If you go work out, you're going to feel better. If you go break a sweat, you're going to feel

better. You're going to get more energy from it. And look, you got to go really, really hard to where now you feel more tired when you're done. And even that, I mean, you've got to go psycho. I'll do that occasionally, but I don't do that on a daily basis. At the end of the day, if I wake up, lift, run, surf, and then I do jiu-jitsu in the afternoon, at the end of that day, I'm tired and I feel tired. But normal day working out just makes you feel better. Definitely gives you-- definitely gives me

energy, I should say, because I guess I'm not everybody. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, I think it's a very important point because one of the things that we are learning from circadian biology, time of day effects and sunlight and all that stuff that we talk about in our podcast that you've done intuitively, this is what we kind of arrive to. JOCKO WILLINK: It's kind of crazy. ANDREW HUBERMAN: As last time we had a conversation is that so many of the things that science is telling us to do and that we emphasize on this podcast you've been doing

or are built into military schedules, and one of them is this notion of waking up early and getting physical early in the day. And I suppose if we were to just throw one blanket rule on the table to encompass the broadest number of themes it's that once every 24 hours, we each and all get a big increase in this release of the hormone cortisol, which everyone says, oh, cortisol it's terrible, he's going to burn you out, adrenal burnout, all that stuff, but it's a non-negotiable peak. And you want it to arrive early in the day

and viewing sunlight, physical activity, caffeine, and in particular intense exercise, all amplify that cortisol peak. In fact, I think the numbers I'm seeing is just sunlight viewing gives you a 50% increase in that cortisol. Exercise on top of that, another 50% to 75% increase. So this huge release in this hormone that everyone thinks is terrible but actually sets this huge wave in motion for the rest of the day, which gives you more energy, higher levels of immune function, more focus, et cetera, and does indeed as you mentioned in your example of your daily life sets

a timer so that about 14 to 16 hours later, you're sleepy, which is what you want 14 to 68 hours later, unless, of course, you're running vampire shifts in the military or you're on shift work, but most people aren't, of course. So I think the idea that movement and exercise gives us energy I think is an important idea and it's something that frankly I was hoping your answer would be that, as opposed to that you wake up every day and you just want to just attack the world because you have so much energy getting out

of bed because frankly, I never feel that way. But I always feel better after I train. Always. And of course, there are times when I crash in the early afternoon if I train really, really hard, but usually that's when I over-caffeinated to an outrageous degree, and then I don't nourish after, or I over nourish. So this is the other thing that eating, the whole rest and digesting, the digest word in there is meant to-- it's there for a reason, which is that when we eat a really big meal, we actually need to slow down. So

I hate to get into daily schedules at the level of nitpicking, and nutrition is about the most controversial topic on the internet, but do you nourish after you train? And if you do, do you do it to the point where you're kind of like, OK, I'm mostly full or I'm full? Are you trying to really nourish yourself, or do you find that eating slows you down? JOCKO WILLINK: I find that eating slows me down. And I would say, again, it's weird how some of this stuff is. The main reason I got in the habit of

waking up early and working out is because if you do it before anyone else is awake, then they can't bother you and you can get stuff done. You go to the SEAL Team and you get there before anyone else is there, no one can say, hey, can you help us with this? Hey, no one sent you an email. So you get that time, you get it done, and it's yours. I remember when you were on my podcast, and I don't wear sunglasses when I run in the morning because I sweat and it fills my sunglasses.

It's not because I want to let the UV light into my eyes, that's not cortisol. It's not for the cortisol. I didn't know that. It's cool that I know it now, but I just did it because I don't like to sweat in my sunglasses, can't see, so I just run without, I don't put a hat on. As far as eating, I don't like to do physically active things with food in my stomach. That's just the way it is. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, me either. JOCKO WILLINK: And so I don't want it. And what really keeps that

in line for me is I'm doing jiu-jitsu in the afternoon, and so if I'm eating a big lunch, by the time the afternoon rolls around, I'm kind of I got food in my gut, and I just don't like that feeling. So no, I don't eat a big meal until I'm kind of done with the physical stuff for the day, which is usually at night, 6, 7 o'clock at night, which I guess there's some bad things about that I eat too late. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, the data say if you're-- yeah, we could go down a rabbit

hole with this and then someone's going to pull up some little clinical study and then another one that counters that. I mean I think the data essentially say that having a regular meal schedule that allows you to sleep well at night, whatever that means for you, and that allows you to be active and focused when you need to be active and focused, that's the ideal schedule. JOCKO WILLINK: When I'm working with clients, so I have a leadership consulting company Echelon Front. When I'm going to work with a client, I'm not eating because they're going to

be asking me questions, we're going to be diving into what's happening inside their business, there's a lot of stuff going on. It's a lot of cognitive work. So I'm not eating before a podcast. I'm not eating before a podcast. Before I'm recording a podcast, I'm not eating because I don't want to have a bunch of food in my stomach. You get a certain level of mental clarity when you haven't eaten a bunch of food. So going out on missions, I never would eat before I go out on a mission. I would eat when I come

home. You get home at 4 o'clock in the morning, 3 o'clock in the morning from doing operation, cool, then I'll eat because then I'm going to do a debrief for 15 minutes, clean weapons, and then eat a big meal, go to sleep. Cool. Yeah, I don't want to have food in my stomach when I've got to perform or execute anything. So again, I think that's just kind of a fluke that I ended up living like that, but that's kind of how I live. ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's a fortunate fluke for all of us because so much

of what you embody and what you do I think centers around this idea of discipline, of course, but also energy. It's the intuitive sense I get about why people are so drawn to your messaging and what you do and how you do it. Energy we know, of course, is caloric energy. And I think that's what most people default to. They go, oh, how many calories are energy and how many calories in that and you need calories to fuel things. But the energy that you're describing I think is the one that-- well, it really maps the

Eastern traditions more directly to how yin and yang thing-- yin and yang, I always get that wrong-- so which is the notion of neural energy. And so there's a particular cluster of chemicals in us as a fancy name called the catecholamines. But that's dopamine, epinephrine, which is adrenaline and norepinephrine, and then you've got cortisol. And those four hang out together and basically give us enough energy to run our brain and body for 50 days. 50 days. So the idea that you have to eat before you train, sure, for some people that might work better than

others, but I think what people don't realize is that anytime we're taking in caloric energy, it takes neural energy in order to digest that and put it into storage. And so the way you describe your day of, yeah, I also don't eat before I train. I like to hydrate and caffeinate. I have been drinking these before I train. I have to limit myself to two before because otherwise, I'm like picking up-- I'm already quaking a little bit at the second one. But I have a pretty high caffeine tolerance. So I like to train first also.

And then I find it gives me energy. But then the moment that I eat a meal that's a little too large, all of a sudden I'm out of energy. And what's the deal? These calories are energy, right? You're supposed to have energy in order to think and move. And I think I think a lot of the world has this backwards. And this isn't a push for intermittent fasting or any particular style of eating really, I don't care if people are carnivores, vegan, doesn't matter to me whatever works. I happen to be an omnivore. But I

think once people understand the energy to do things is neural, and yet, of course, it relies on having glycogen and all this stuff around, but neural energy is what's really about, then your schedule and the way you function and the way you describe your schedule really makes a ton of sense. So you described getting up and lifting, running, surfing, and jiu-jitsu in the same day. So on a day like that, you're hydrating, correct? JOCKO WILLINK: Oh, yeah, definitely. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Because that's vital. And I know in the Teams, in the SEAL Teams, there's a lot

of discussion about hydration is important, even though you guys I know are supposed to be able to eat sand and survive on sunlight and dirt and drink your own blood. JOCKO WILLINK: Not me. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Hydration is taken seriously, right? JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, and different people need different amount of hydration. And I, unfortunately, was one. I always needed to bring a lot of water in the field which sucked because water is heavy. And I have friends. One of my friends, Tony, BTF Tony, he'd go in the field with like a can of Copenhagen and coffee

in his canteen and go like three straight days-- ANDREW HUBERMAN: He's like a desert turtle. JOCKO WILLINK: He's a desert rat, man. He could just survive. And I would always have to bring this water. I sweat a ton when I work out or when I'm doing anything that requires physical output. I sweat a ton, so I have to drink a lot of water for sure. But not everyone's the same. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, I think if most people focus more on hydration and movement. They would find they have two-- I'm going to venture a guess here,

this is not a scientific study, but two to four times more energy than if they focused on caloric energy and what to eat. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, and I think the cool thing about this, you're using the term energy. And what's cool about this is you or I create energy. I create energy by, like I said, by going and lifting in the morning, by going and doing-- you go do burpees? You go do 100 burpees like you're creating energy. You're going to be tired, you're going to be sweating, but you just created energy. So that stuff

is totally true I'm glad there's neuroscience to back it up. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, I'm actually thinking about devoting some of my lab to this. One of the best examples, another familiar territory for you is cold water. Nowadays there's a lot about ice baths and cold baths and showers and all that, and I always like to just say, listen it's all just a reliable source of inducing adrenaline release. And you get out of a cold shower, you have more energy, and that energy couldn't have been caloric energy, it's adrenaline. And again, it's fair to say I'm

obsessed by the ideas of identity, which is a little bit how we started off and I want to get back to it, and energy. I feel like identity and energy can account for 75% of what it is to live a good life if you can master those, because then it all seems to fall into bins. Of course, you need sleep. Why? Well, to restore your neural energy. At some point, you just fade out of neural energy if you don't sleep. So sleep then falls into a particular bin with a particular purpose, and then exercise becomes

not a way to burn energy but, as you said, to create energy. And we actually are starting to understand why this is if you'll indulge me for a second on some neuroscience. We didn't talk about this last time. We have neural circuits that control deliberate action. We have neural circuits that control deliberate actions that when we forget that we're doing like walking. And then we have neural circuits which are called central pattern generators. And these are the neural circuits that love to just work on their own, and in the background just kind of hum in

the background and take care of all the stuff like heartbeat, breathing and movement that is repetitive. If you're just marching and you don't have to adjust your cadence much, or maybe you're hiking even and stepping this rock, that rock, once those central pattern generators get going, it's very automatic. And we know that once your central pattern generators get going, there's the release of those catecholamines, those three or four molecules that then feed all the other neural systems. They're called neuro modulators for a reason because they set the gain higher. So when you go out for

a run or a jog or a hike or something or you pedal or you row, and then your whole system is at a higher RPM so when you say create energy, neuroscientists are starting to understand what that is, repetitive movement that allows you to forget the motor commands that are required to generate that movement. You might think about your row stroke or something like that, but you can do it without thinking much. You come off of that and you now are set at a higher RPM to do more deliberate stuff. And none of this, again,

involve like eating enough carbohydrates or making sure you had enough ketones or enough protein. It's like you got plenty of that stuff provided you nourish at some point every 24 hours or so. I think we know a little bit about the science behind Jocko Willink's schedule now, but I will ask this, are there certain forms of exercise like weight lifting versus cardio that you find give you an especially big boost in what we're calling energy? And here this could be cognitive energy, it could be physical energy, a readiness for the next thing? JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah,

first I got to back you up on this. I love backing up your science. So do you ever ruck march like put on a heavyweight and ruck? ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, sorry to interrupt. Yeah, Peter Attia got me into this. He got me into doing a long Sunday-- instead of a long Sunday, run throwing on a lightweight vest or a ruck, and going out for like three hours. And the first 20 minutes, I find I always want to go faster and get it over with. But then I've learned that the real pain in it sets in

around an hour, and then the beauty sets in around 90 minutes, where you're like, I could do this all day, all night, and I never want to stop. JOCKO WILLINK: See that's when you were describing how these chemicals get released, and once you're in that automatic mode-- because in the SEAL Teams, you're doing Maritime operations for a month, and then you're going to do some kill shooting, and so you're not carrying a bunch of weight. And then you go out to the desert and now you're putting on 80 pounds and you're going on day one,

and you get out there, you're going on an 80 pounds ruck march. And the first freaking 17 minutes, the first 23 minutes just suck. They just suck. And what was beautiful was by the time I was 23, 24 years old, like, oh, yeah, this is going to suck for 17 minutes, and then it's going to be-- I'm going to be a robot and it doesn't matter anymore. I can just keep going forever. So now it sounds like what you're saying is what I experienced basically my whole adult life. There's going to be a little break

in period mentally where you think this totally sucks, and then you just can keep going for a really, really long time, and it's not that big of a deal. To your question of is there any form of exercise that gives me that energy, I would have to say like the high intensity sort of anaerobic blast, whether it's on the bike or on the rower or swing and a kettlebell hard, something like that that lasts 10, 15 minutes, that's a really good way to peak my mentality for the day. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Do you do the cold

water thing? I mean, you certainly did a lot of it in BUD/S. I mean, do you force yourself into cold water and the you release-- JOCKO WILLINK: I have a cold bath in my house, and I get in every day. ANDREW HUBERMAN: How long are you spending in there? JOCKO WILLINK: Usually around five minutes. Five minutes. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Before you train or after you train? JOCKO WILLINK: After. So this is something I haven't played with yet, and for me, I'm like such a-- I don't like to make a bunch of effort for something. So for

me going downstairs getting in the ice tub-- and I guess you only need to do it-- before you work out, you only go a minute, right? ANDREW HUBERMAN: You do a minute to three. Joe and I have been texting back and forth about this. There's a lab at Stanford, Craig Heller's lab that works on cold and performance, and the athletes at Stanford, mainly the cross-country team and the football players are doing cold before their training because of the huge increase-- huge long lasting increase in dopamine and adrenaline that's caused by that. They're finding it increases

performance mainly by waking people up and getting them-- it creates energy, basically. And students, everyone thinks of like, oh, athletes are all super motivated. This is no pick against Stanford athletes in particular. A lot of athletes are excellent at what they do because they're very lazy when they're not training. This is true. Not all athletes, but a lot of athletes are. And so they're really good at resting and recovering so they can train more. But a lot of athletes have a hard time getting into gear to train every day, and the cold is a great

stimulus. It's like a four shot of espresso kind of stimulus without all the jitters. JOCKO WILLINK: I think maybe going in there for a minute would be cool before a workout. I will say this. So I had a long workout and it was a Saturday, which means on Saturday I do jiu-jitsu in the morning around 10 o'clock, and I had like a long workout, went for a long run, it was hot, and I just got in the ice bath and I sat in there for like 7 minutes like the deep chill. I got out and

then I went right to jiu-jitsu, and I felt awful. I felt absolutely awful like tight cold, and it took me an extra three rounds to get warmed up again. So that kind of left a bad taste in my mouth for pre-work icing. But I'm going to try this short because I was talking to another friend of mine, they're like, oh, no, only go a minute before. Maybe I'll give that a try. ANDREW HUBERMAN: If it's really cold, 30 seconds to a minute is going to get you this big release and adrenaline and dopamine. JOCKO WILLINK:

Actually one time I did try the chamber that blasts cold air on you. ANDREW HUBERMAN: The cryo. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, the cryo, and I did that for like a minute or whatever, and that did make me feel pre-workout pretty good. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, I think that the whole notion of cold for metabolism, people say, well, it's not that big of an increase in metabolism, look, as far as I'm concerned, the main function of the cold for most people is going to be the discipline of doing it, the sense of resilience that you can build up

over time just being familiar with having adrenaline in your system. And then the fact that the dopamine increases are huge and long lasting, I mean, they're like 2.5x increases. There's a colleague of mine at Stanford, an alumni who runs our dual diagnosis addiction clinic. She had a patient getting off cocaine addiction who decided to use cold ice baths as a way to kind of assist himself along the way. He wasn't getting dopamine from cocaine anymore, so he decided to get it from the ice bath. The difference is cocaine gives you these sharp increases and then

decreases that drop you way below baseline, so what do people do if they go seek more cocaine, it's really pernicious that way, whereas the ice bath and cold showers will give this long arc lasting two to three hours or more. And that's really something to treasure, the idea that you can basically save on your heating bill give yourself this huge dopamine increase. And I think everything points to the fact that it's healthy and good but I mean obviously it's working for you to do it after your training. I think all the gym rats who want

more hypertrophy you're trying to get an extra 1/8 of an inch on their tricep or whatever, they freak out because they hear that it can inhibit hypertrophy. And then for whatever reason, there's this-- JOCKO WILLINK: So am I doing it wrong? ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, I mean, yeah, clearly you're doing it right now. No, you're not-- I don't think your hypertrophy is suffering. I actually am of the mind that if you're training really hard, sure, getting in the cold afterwards might blunt some hypertrophy that is what the data tell us. Andy Galpin is kind of the

expert on that literature. But frankly, I don't know anyone that trains really hard with the weights and then gets into the cold that looks like they're suffering from hypertrophy. I know a lot of people, however, who love to point fingers at and poke at cold exposure. This seems to be a big thing on social media. People who don't like the cold love to point out the studies showing that the cold screws up everything, and most of them look like they can eat a few sets in the gym to me. And I feel comfortable with poking

at them because I feel like all of these are just tools. And in any case, I'm a big fan of deliberate cold exposure, mostly for the neural effects. Again I'm obsessing over this concept of energy, and it's something that I can't help but ask that is the cognitive side of this and the effects of winning and losing. So you obviously have a lot of deployments and a lot of wins, whatever in the context that meant. Kill the target, capture the hostage, et cetera. And then as is the case with war, there have been some cases

of losses. You've lost people. Maybe there were targets that weren't accomplished, this kind of thing. And you've posted about these, and these are always things that are hard to see, but I think it's really it's important that you post about people that you've lost because, first of all, these people served, but second of all, things don't always work out the way that we want, and sometimes to really catastrophic consequences. There's a theory in biology that when we win, we somehow get more energy to win more through the release of, no surprise, dopamine and some related

molecules. And in fact, testosterone in both men and women is another close cousin of the dopamine system. They're actually released from the same general-- patterns of release are from the same general areas in the brain, believe it or not, and body. But when we win, we feel like we can keep going. You look at the team that wins and it's like they'll play another game. The Super Bowl winners you imagine they're jumping up and down, and they could probably play another Super Bowl. Losing we know can sure can drop things like testosterone and dopamine for

some period of time. But when you were in the Teams what was your observation about how winning and losing would impact people in the short and long term? In other words, would you observe people that had a quick reset button and could just say that was terrible, and then transmute, I guess I'm getting into the Eastern language now, to convert that into energy to go do better the next time? Whereas we also see people, military and in the civilian world that a loss, in particular severe losses, basically set them down the path of less energy,

and certainly is in less calories. In fact, most of the time it's the other way. They start consuming more calories and that doesn't get them going. So again, this notion of energy, and now I'm asking, wins versus losses what did you observe and from the perspective of leadership, and maybe more importantly from the perspective of yourself, how do you work with that? How do you calibrate wins and losses? How do you transmute losses into energy? Because winds we know we convert to energy, but losses oftentimes can sup our energy way, way down. JOCKO WILLINK: To

start with, I think that the selection process to get into the SEAL Teams is going to weed out a bunch of people that can't recover very quickly from something bad. So you probably heard these type of stories before. The kid that was the star of the football team, the star of the basketball team, the captain of this, the captain of that, he's been winning his whole life. He goes to BUD/S and he quits, because in BUD/S, you're not going to win. You're certainly not going to win everything. They're going to find what you're not good

at, and they're going to exploit that, and you're going to lose. This is what happens. So a lot of guys that may lose and it disrupts their motivation, they're probably just going to quit. And so that's why you get this massive attrition rate with guys that are studs. I mean, we're talking Division 1 athletes. Division 1 athletes, Division 1 wrestlers, Division 1 football players, Division 1 runners and swimmers. They all come to BUD/S. They all quit. all of them quit but there's plenty of examples of the highest level of collegiate athlete in sports that translate

very well to what you're doing in basic SEAL training, and they quit. And sometimes it's because they don't know how to lose, they don't know how to recover from a loss, and they're just-- so I think already once you get to a SEAL Team, you've got people that are generally speaking, going to be pretty resilient when it comes to dealing with a loss. Not only that, I mean, you just get used to talk about losing people, you're friends with this guy, you meet this guy in SEAL training, hey, this guy seems like a stud, oh,

he's just going to quit. And you're going to lose five, six, seven people, eight people. People quit so fast you cant' even keep track of them. So you're just going to lose. You're just going to get used to it. So there's that. Now once you're in the Teams, what you're talking about is now you start taking much more significant loss, you're not losing a race, you're losing of one of your friends. And this is what from a leadership perspective you have to pay attention to. So when you're a leader in any organization, you're basically in

charge of a mob. When it comes to what their morale is, they're a mob, and they feed off of each other, just like a mob riding in the streets going, oh, we can break this window. Let's break all the windows, and they move this mob mentality. And that happens with morale inside of a team. And you as a leader can't get caught up with the mob. You can't let that happen. You have to detach yourself from the mob mentally so that you don't get caught up in their emotions and their morale because if you get

caught up in their emotions and you get caught up in their morale, you can't correct it. So we go out on a mission, the mission goes great, we get into a gunfight, kill a couple of bad guys, everyone's OK, high fives, everyone's feeling great. You come back to base, hey, we don't need a debrief. That was perfect. Hey, we don't need to get our gear maintained, we can just go to bed, we're awesome. That's when the leader has to say, oh, we've got the mob and the mob is becoming slightly arrogant. Hey, guys, real quick,

that was a good op, but there are some things we could improve. You got to bring that mob back and bring them back to center line. Same thing in the other direction. You go out an operation, it doesn't go well. You go out an operation, you take casualties. Now you come back to base, you see guys moping around, you see the spirit starting to break, and same thing. If you're part of that mob, you'll be with them, your morale will be breaking, your spirit will be breaking. You've got to look up and say, oh, I

see what's happening. Hey, guys, listen up. That was tough. Didn't go the way we wanted it to go. We need to learn some lessons. Here are some things I can do better. What can we do better to make sure that never happens again? What can we do to make sure we have the opportunity to go out and avenge our brother on the battlefield? What can we do to move this thing forward? So as a leader when it comes to winning and losing, you're generally going to be the person countering what the mob mentality is because

when the mob starts winning, they want to keep winning and they might get arrogant. When the mob is losing, they might start to lose more because their attitude goes down the drain. So that's where you have to pay attention to from a leadership perspective. For me personally, I know what I did when I lost guys was focused on, all right, we need to celebrate the life, we need to mourn the loss, and then we need to go to work. We need to get our gear back on. We need to lock and load our weapons. We

need to get back out there. I know that that's what we needed to do. So often, the best way to contend with problems, with issues, with adversity is action, is by taking action. The more you sit and the more you wait and the more time you spend with that adversity with the upper hand inside your head, the worse it's going to get. So for me always taking action, making something happen, it doesn't have to be huge, it doesn't have to be some mammoth triumph that you're going to go and pursue, but if you say, hey,

listen, this what happened. Didn't go the way we wanted it to. We're going to get our gear back on. We're going to go back out. We're going to do this other mission. And that's what I think. Taking action, and it's in your personal life too, something doesn't go the way you wanted it to go, you didn't get the job you wanted, you didn't get the hire, you didn't get the promotion, you can go home and sit there and dwell on it. That's not getting you any progress. Or you say, OK, you know what, let me

do a quick analysis why didn't I get that promotion. Oh, it's because I didn't get this qualification or I hadn't jumped through this gate. OK. Cool. What do I need? Let me look into how do I get to jump through that gate so next time I will get the promotion? And you start taking action. So action for me is a cure for a lot of problems that we have in life. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love this because the image that's arising my mind, I'll share it with you and tell me where it agrees with and maybe

violates what you're telling me, but what I was imagining it when you were talking about leadership in the mob is a bunch of candles, but not wax candles, these are oil candles. And you're talking about a win, so it could be an op to go out and win, it could be a team, it could be an individual taking an exam and they get an A-plus, it doesn't matter, but they're riding high. I mean, those winds we know crank up those catecholamines, and it's as if the intensity of that flame starts going up as a consequence.

That's natural. But the oil and the candle is continuing to burn down. Like you need to celebrate wins, but you're burning that oil. And so what we're really talking about here is how to moderate and then reclaim energy. And I was imagining as the leader who like OK, guys, great, but listen, you're burning that oil. That oil is what got you the win. Let's not just clamp it like we can do a few fist bumps and maybe celebrate it in some other ways, but then let's take the energy we got and put it to the

next thing rather than just go crazy. Drugs of abuse, in particular drugs that tap into the dopamine system, namely cocaine and amphetamine, and just because there's no way to avoid this if we're being true to the biology, the energy the dopamine system was designed for foraging for all sorts of things, food, so people that overindulge food or seek out food, sex, people that overindulge in these things. Those things, and again this sort of leans to Eastern philosophy a bit but, there's Western neuroscience or neuroscience we should just say to support it, you start to deplete

these dopamine systems. The baseline starts to drop. And so I'm imagining that the leader, you in this case, is saying like, listen, let's tone it down, use the energy that we've gained and put it to good use, rather than just burn it up enjoying it. And then, of course, after a loss when those-- I sort of think of the candles going dimmer but the oil reserve is still there, and it's like how do you start to tap back into the oil reserve? Well, you have to actually ramp the candle up again. You can't just sit

there waiting for the intensity of the flame to come back. You actually have to do something in order for that to happen. So maybe this isn't the best analogy because it lacks exactly what is the person turning the intensity up and down on these candles, but that's what comes to mind. And in Eastern traditions, there's this idea of Qi of energy, energy to fight, energy to seek mates, energy to seek food, energy for sex, energy for all of it is the same energy. And I actually believe that the energy that they're referring to are these

catecholamines. I really do. Now there are other energy systems too relating to child rearing, pair bonding, oxytocin, all the kind of fuzzy warm stuff, that's super important. I mean, we wouldn't exist as a species the way we do we didn't honor that energy system also. And that energy system that we normally think of as love as opposed to forward center of mass synergizes with this system. When you're working with and training with and people that you love, this could be your brothers, your sisters, whatever, your family, I think there's an amplifying effect on this whole

thing. If is just for more dopamine, just for more money, just four more wins, just four more trophies-- I'll never forget this as an aside. When I was a kid, I had this weird experience where Tony Hawk's dad rescued me from a skateboard contest in Linda Vista. The Linda Vista Boys Club, everyone else left, I was left there alone. I was 14 because of my home life at that time, et cetera, and he was like, where are you going? I'm like, I'm going to take the bus to Lancaster. I know this guy. And he was

like, no, no, you're coming to our house. I was like, OK. So he took me at Tony's house, and I went into Tony's room that he had grown up in. Tony lived in Fallbrook at that time. And the room wasn't filled with trophies. The room was trophies and I remember just thinking like, holy cow. And when I think about that and I think about what a healthy person Tony turned out to be because I happened to be blessed to know him a little bit, it's amazing because a lot of people that had those trophies whatever

domain of life, they converted all that into ways to just burn the oil down in their candle. He's a guy who's still going in his 50s. So that's a little side story, but I think this notion of energy to me is so important because, as you said, when we move toward action and we complete something, the oil in that candle starts to get replenished, and the flame burns hotter. I'd like to take a brief break and thank our sponsor InsideTracker. InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help

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what sorts of nutritional, behavioral, maybe even supplementation based interventions you might want to take on in order to adjust the numbers of those metabolic factors, hormones, lipids, and other things that impact your immediate and long term health, to bring those numbers into the ranges that are appropriate and indeed optimal for you. If you'd like to try inside tracker you can visit insidetracker.com/huberman and get 20% off any of the inside trackers plans. That's insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off. JOCKO WILLINK: What you're talking about and I'm very interested in this now, and I don't know if there's

already been measured or not, but what essentially we're talking about is the confidence level. So if I go out and win, I feel good about it. And let's say I'm doing a jiu-jitsu tournament, and the first match I go out there and I submit the guy in 30-- take him down, submit him in 30 seconds. I'm feeling good. I'm feeling confident. So what does that mean? My dopamine is up because I got that victim. My testosterone was up because I got that victory. My confidence is up because I got that victory. Same thing other direction.

If I go out first match and I lose to somebody, my dopamine goes down, that chemical thing goes down, my confidence goes down. And what I have to do is I have to learn how to maintain a level of confidence because if I get-- if I win that first match, win the second, I'll say, I'm going to kill this next guy, and I go out and I'm sloppy and I don't care. That's when I get caught. If I lack confidence, I go out there and there's nothing I will do to beat this guy, that's going

to be horrible. Of course, I'm going to get smashed. So it's a similar thing that we're talking about. I just wonder how much if you start measuring because they say, hey, if you win, your testosterone goes up. And then if you win more, your testosterone goes up high. Your dopamine goes up high. Your confidence is going up, but you can get to a point where your confidence is too high, and now you're getting sloppy, and now you don't care. And you mentioned cocaine. You see like videos of people that are all coked up and, hey,

I can do this. They think they can do everything. ANDREW HUBERMAN: All possibility. JOCKO WILLINK: Over confident. They're over they think they can kick your ass off. That's like too much dopamine, too much ego, too much confidence. The other side of the spectrum is someone that's on some kind of downer drug, and they don't feel like they can do anything. They're lethargic, their confidence is low, and they're just depressed. So there's an interesting tie-in between dopamine, ego, confidence, and probably testosterone that you get from winning and from losing. And once again as a leader, from

a leadership perspective, you can't get wrapped up in that. You can't get wrapped up in that. You have to detach from it. You have to be able to take a step back. And then if you're good even as a competitor, you'll say, oh, yeah, that last match was easy, but I need to prepare for the next match. I can't bring over confidence. Look, I don't want to lack a confidence. It's a balance. It's that flame on the oil burning lamp that you're talking about, that you want that steady flame. You don't want too much going

to burn out of control. You don't want too little, the flame will go out. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, earlier we talked about this notion that some of these older Hungarian psychologists had which this notion of generators versus projectors. And their idea was that people sort of divide into these different categories, and the world needs both. It's not a that one is better than the other, but the world absolutely needs both. And there is this idea now based on some neuroscience and some other psychology that I've been kind of glazing into which is that generators know how

to tap into the system, and they love this system. I think back to your story about being taken to shop for pants and it turns out to be a trip to shop for a number of different experiences for you. A really telling experience, having an action effect on the world and something coming back to you that still sits with you inside. In fact, there's a dopamine circuit there still related to this young woman or then young woman at that time. Some people are generators and I think that they are more attuned to this dopamine system.

And so as we're having this conversation, I'm guessing that about the estimate is that somewhere between 50 and 65% of people are going, yeah, I get it. More workouts are going to give me more energy. I need to do more of that. I need to win I'm back on my heels. I need to think about the things I can complete, et cetera. And then the other 45% or so or 35% might be saying, I don't really get it. Now the idea is that the projectors can tap into these same circuits. Everyone has these catecholamine circuits,

dopamine et cetera, but that they tend to be more of observers in the world and they like being partnered with and symbiotic with these people. Now this starts to take on stereotypical masculine, feminine things, but this exists on both sides, it really does. There might be some biases by biological sex, there may not be. We could argue that. It's probably an argument that'll get us into more trouble than to answers, and doesn't really matter. The point is that some people are perfectly happy to be in the company of people winning because they feel good to

see other people winning. They like to be a support staff. That's what makes them feel good. Other people would rather stick hot forks in their eyes than not be the person engaged in the activity. Maybe not every activity but the activity. So we're talking about the generators and the projectors. I think that in the context of moderating these systems, it's so key. I mean, it's key to have a long arc and a career path, military, science, or otherwise. I think it's key in every domain of life. And I think for me, one thing that I've

learned both the hard way and I've also benefit from the positive experience of, I think in relationships, l this could be romantic relationships, but also friendships and in family, because there are generators and projectors almost always in those kind of symbiotic relationship, romantic couple or a family, some kids are more generators, some are more projectors just by something, who knows? Maybe it's hardwired, maybe not. As the leader of your family, I'm going to assume one of the two leaders, but as a leader in your family, I'm not going make any assumptions here, as the leader

of your family, and also as a father in particular, how do you apply these same sorts of ideas when you know your kid is kind of down because it's hard to be a 14-year-old or because it was a bad day, or when they're up? I think the up states are as interesting as the down states like, yes, got the degree, got the win. How much do you let them celebrate before you're like, hey, listen, you just got yourself another couple of milliliters of oil in your candle, what are you going to do with that? You're

going to burn it, or you going to save it for the next thing so you can climb the staircase? JOCKO WILLINK: Well, clearly it's a very similar thing to what I just talked about. If your kid is doing well and wins the wrestling tournament and is like, yeah, I won the wrestling tournament, and what do they want to do? They want to eat a triple cheese pizza, I mean, they want to go crazy and you as a leader and as a parent and as a friend, you'd say, hey, man, I mean, you did good. That

was awesome. You had a great day, but let's start thinking a little bit about next week too. How about we just have a few slices of pizza as a reward? So this is the same in any situation that you could be in interacting with other human beings. You want to be the person that kind of modulates the confidence and the ego or the way you put it, the dopamine and the celebratory activities. So no matter who you are, and this goes with yourself as well, you do something, you have a success and you say, Oh,

that's great, but all glory is fleeting, and I need to get back to work. And look, and do people go too far with that? Sometimes yes, absolutely. Sometimes people, they don't stop and celebrate at all. And those are the kind of people I think that get burned out eventually because they never say, hey, that was awesome. We had a big win. Cool, high five. They don't even say that. So I think as a leader, as a friend, as a parent, as a spouse, you want to be able to modulate that, help modulate that, don't shut

it down. Your kid walks off the wrestling mat for a high five and you say, you could have won by more. No, I'm not talking about that, or your kid walks off the mat after losing, you say, you got what you deserve. No you've got to be the counterweight to the emotions that other people have. And I think that when you're doing a good job as a leader, as a friend, as a spouse or whatever, you're doing a good job as a counterweight. I think that's a good way to look at it. You want to

provide some balance for people to make sure that they don't get out of control. And you notice when people have a downfall, it's normally because they've surrounded themselves with people that there's no counter to, there's no counterbalance. If you were my best friend and I went out drinking last night and had a great time and partied all night and met a girl and you're like, heck, yeah, let's do it again tonight, eventually, where are we going to be? We're going to be in the gutter somewhere. But if you say, hey, that was awesome, but remember

we got school on Monday, and you kind of pull me back, we got to find balance in life and ourselves, and then we got as much as we can provide balance for other people because people are emotional and they get caught up in what they're doing and you want to keep people balanced. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I think one of the reasons people are really drawn to your message, and I put myself in that category, and I remember 2014 was a very different picture for me, it doesn't really matter what the contour was, things were working, but

they weren't working the way I wanted them to. And I remember arriving at your content first through the Tim Ferriss podcast and then eventually the Jocko Willink podcast, Joe Rogan podcast, those were the big two ones that kind of like introduced me to you and your content, and it was really a case of at the time, I didn't have a lot of friends that were doing similar things to me or that matched my daily routines in a way that I could kind of synergize with in this way. I think one reason why you are so

helpful to people is that not everybody has these friends. You can have the friend that's like, let's go out and tie one on again, a lot of people don't even have that friend, or they have a friend, but they're not really close with that person. There's some ideas nowadays about 80% of males don't have a close friend that they could call. I don't know, I mean, I'm guessing girls and women feel the same too that a lot of stuff is superficial, and there's a lot of communication but not a lot of connection. And so I

think that you and a few other people in the-- let's call it social media public facing space, serve as archetypes of the friend that's going to tell you when you're up, great, but let's clamp it after a while, or that when you're down, let's get going and here's how you get going. And so I do want to highlight that because I think it's really important and it's but one reason why people are drawn to your message and the message of some other people who are out there trying to do similar things, but you in particular

because yes, you have this military background, very intense military background, wartime background, but also you bring it into the daily routines that certainly apply to everybody. Most everybody can access non-heated water, one would hope. There's another dimension to this that I want to just bring up and get your reflections on as it relates to military, work, school, relationship, family, et cetera, which is somewhat counterintuitive idea but then once you hear it, it makes perfect sense, which is that even though the catecholamines are responsible for drive, and that that's what we're really about when we're forward

center of mass and we have to control the intensity of the candle and the level of the oil, I don't know what those actually mapped to exactly. We could probably figure it out if we really parsed it, but that's the idea here, the analogy. In a kind of surprising way, we know that for sure one way to restore levels of motivation drive enthusiasm, and to some degree confidence that things could be different is through deep rest, things like sleep. When things are really, really hard, when kids are just like they were like falling apart, it's

like you put them to sleep, they wake up and they're like delightful, they're running around their pajamas when they're little, and a teenager wakes up after a good night's sleep, they might be a little like surly, but we're back. Adults are like this. The world is falling apart. You go to sleep, wake up, OK, I might be able to manage this kind of mindset. So sleep. And then the other one is we know that play, the kind of physical activity or mental activity where it might be a little competitive, but the stakes are low, and

it's really more about connection with the activity or connection with somebody else. Like we're going to play a game of whatever, I won't play chess with Lex because he'll kick my ass, I won't do jiu-jitsu with either of you because you'll beat me up both of you, kindly, but you'll do it. But if we were to play a game, it's just us yeah, we might be a little competitive, but the stakes are low. We know that play and social connection and sleep are basically the reservoir or the location that you go to refill the oil

in the candle every single time. And so for you, where do those things play into your routine? You mention you can go hard all day and then in the evening, is it dinner with family, typically if you're at home, and what does that look like? I know we're kind of parsing in-- I don't want to carve into your personal life too deeply, obviously, there are boundaries there, but what does that look like? Is it everyone at the table, phones away, and you're talking about the day? Or is it-- yeah, share with us a little bit

of what that looks like because I think it is an important contour to what you're about and what we're talking about that most people just don't have a window into. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, so, well, first of all, I mean, just the refilling the tank with games, I mean, that's what jiu-jitsu is. You're going to go and you're going to have social connection with people, you're going to talk to people that you know, you're going to joke about whatever, then you're going to roll. You're going to have a good time rolling, you're going to get a

little sweat on, you're going to feel good, then you're going to high five like there's huge-- that's there, and your brain is kind of off. When you're training jiu-jitsu at a certain level, you're not going to be thinking anymore. Same thing with surfing. You go surfing and you catch a wave. I mean, you're not thinking about, oh, I need to put my balance over here. No, it's happening and you're having a good time. So I would say that restoration for me comes from those two things for sure. And then yeah, I mean, my wife and

my kids when I get home-- and my kids are older now, and they're out of the house except for one. And when I was in the Navy when they were young, I wasn't around at all. We would rarely have dinner together because I was gone, coming home late, you're working all the time, you can never get all your work done, I'm training jiu-jitsu, we rarely ate dinner as a family when I was in the Teams. And now when I'm home, we can eat together for sure. My daughter that's still at home, she's going to-- we

sit out there and eat dinner and talk about just normal things that people talk about, like how to conduct a night ambush or-- let's talk about normal daily things and what's going on. And my daughter, she's 13 right now and she talks to me about all kinds of stuff, and it's awesome. Yeah, I'm definitely enjoying that aspect of being around more than I was when I was in the Teams and we didn't have dinner. Didn't happen. So I would take my kids to jiu-jitsu, I taught jiu-jitsu classes when I could when I was in the

Teams, would do workouts with them in the morning if I had time on the weekends for sure, stuff like that with my kids, that's kind of what I did. But now yeah, we-- my wife is awesome, and she is a great cook now because when we first got married, it was questionable. I just was harassing her about this the other day. She's an unbelievable cook now, and it's awesome. And when we first met, by her own admission, she will tell you she was not. She's from England, and so they're just not cooking what we're liking.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: No, the food over there, at least when I was growing up in the few times I made it over there, the food was pretty dreadful. I mean, there were some exceptions to that, and they drank a lot over there. So I've been to some scientific meetings over there where they would start with like Sherri in the afternoon, and then beer after work. It was outrageous. I mean, the amount of alcohol intake was just absurd. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Sorry, Brits. And again I'm not trying to-- I did an episode on alcohol, a

lot of people were angry about that episode because it's basically said, once you get past two drinks a week, you're starting to head into territory that can deplete your health, so you got to do a lot of other things to offset it. But they drink a lot. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, the Brits drink a lot. I have spent time over there with my father-in-law, my brother-in-law, and we definitely drank a lot. So I'm glad I don't live there and had to drink with them. I'm glad I don't have to drink with them all the time. I'd

probably be dead. ANDREW HUBERMAN: You were straight edge growing up, right? JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, I mean, when I was a kid, and then when I joined the Navy, I started drinking. That's like part of the culture that I bought into. And I wanted to be a good SEAL, and I'm looking around at the guys that were considered good SEALs, oh, so we're drinking? OK, that's what we're doing. And that's what I did. Looking back now, I didn't really-- I didn't think of it as a big deal at the time. I wasn't like-- well, first of

all, even when I was growing up and I didn't drink and didn't smoke, didn't do drugs, I wasn't like a guy putting an X on my hand, although my friends and I, we all didn't drink, didn't smoke. So we definitely-- look, I was listening to Minor Threat when I was a kid. I mean, I get it, but I wasn't I running around telling everyone I was straight edge, but I was on that path for sure. And then when I got in the SEAL Teams, it's like, OK, this is a different culture. I'm not used to

it. And I didn't really even understand what drinking was. I mean, I never had been drunk. So got on the SEAL Team so I was like, OK, well, once I turned 21, hey, these guys were going to have fun, and I kind of just, OK, that's what we're doing, and then I drank a ton while I was in the SEAL Teams. And then as I retired from the SEAL Teams and went out, we basically went to every bar that we would normally go to like as SEALs. I think we closed out the night at the

Park Shores in OB. And when I went home that morning, I woke up the next morning, worked out, and then I just kind of stopped drinking because-- and now I just definitely, I mean, now I just don't really drink anymore. So that's that. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, when I had my lab in San Diego for five years, that's where my lab started, I definitely saw a lot of Team guys in bars. You guys would come in and take over bars. These were little takeovers. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I wouldn't leave because I wouldn't like give

them the satisfaction or me the dissatisfaction, but it was a little frustrating. You're in there, you're having a decent time and then just this enormous pack of Team guys comes in and sort of like, all right, maybe it's time to close out the night. I was friends with enough of them, but if you're not really a part of it, you're not really a part of it, and I always knew that and understood that. One thing that I think really comes through now especially but throughout our discussion and all the things I've seen of you, and

it gets me back to this thing that came up at the beginning, I'd really like to return to is that you seem to have a very strong sense of context and self. I'll just say it, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not here to play one, but what you just described was that in one context, you know it made sense to be straight edge, and you mentioned Minor Threat, great band, straight edge band, but when it came time to run around with your friends then and it made sense to be without alcohol or drugs or anything

at that stage and then you get into another context, it's like OK, I can do this. I can drink and still perform well and do all the things I need to do. And then when that closes out, I'm going to do something else. And some people are like that because they're kind of a chameleon. They're switching themselves depending on the context, and they're kind of getting accents when they're in one location or another, but that's not you at all. I can tell with certainty that's not you at all. There seems to be a very strong

sense of self so that when we have a sense of self that's firm, we can go into different contexts. We can even change our behavior, but we don't lose who we are, which means we can always return to it. The image in my mind is like I've done a little bit of scuba diving, not a lot, but during some of the more advanced training for us, this wasn't SEAL training, of course, was following a line in the dark, like a night dive. And you're following a line, and sometimes you're navigating with tools, but suddenly you're

following a line underwater. And this idea that you can let go of that line, but you have to remember where it is you can return to it. And that's kind of how I imagine the sense of self because in different contexts, most healthy people modify themselves a little bit. We act differently at a wedding or a funeral than we do in class or out with our friends. Of course, it's an important part of being a functional human. So it seems to me that from a pretty early stage, you had a pretty good sense of self.

Now I don't know if you sit in your room and meditate on who is Jocko Willink and touch that central chord of self. I'm guessing you don't. But as I say this, I have to ask, was there something in your upbringing, your parents or was it just kind of how you always imagine yourself is like, yeah, this is who I am. No matter what happens around me, I kind of know who I am. Even if I'm engaging in some of the behaviors that I might not do in another context, I know who I am because

I actually think that many people do not have a very firm sense of self, or their sense of self is so rigid that they can only operate in this narrow trench of one domain of life and they end up very, very isolated. So I'd love for you to share with us what your recollections are like the first time you realized like, yeah, I'm good in a bunch of different places. I'm safe or I'm whatever, because I think this is also relates to confidence. JOCKO WILLINK: I'm glad you are giving me the benefit of the doubt

on going in the Teams and being like, oh, hey, man, looks like guys are drinking and I haven't really drank before, and it seems like these guys are having a good time. Let's go have a good time with these guys, and that's kind of what I did right. As far as, and I look at it now and unfortunately for me, I look at alcohol now as just-- I've seen it destroy so many people that I've now kind of look at it and go, man, I don't think people should drink. And look, I get it. I'm

kind of an example. I used to drink and go out and have a good time, and it wasn't that big of a deal. It didn't negatively impact me in some dramatic way, but I have so many friends that it is horrible for. It is all but ruined their lives. And it's totally legal, which is kind of bizarre. So I think that figuring that out when I look back, and the culture in the SEAL Teams was very-- there was very alcohol centric. And part of that is because it's just like a fraternity is alcohol centric, or

a football team is because you got a bunch of young dudes that are going to drink and have a good time. So it's just sort of a young dude kind of thing, and unfortunately, it ends up ruining a lot of people's lives and they make bad decisions and they do stupid things and it's just not good. And I think the culture is moving away from that a little bit in the SEAL Teams. My alcohol brief used to say, I used to tell my guys if you go out, you get a DUI, you get put in

jail for a fight, you get hurt because you're doing something drunk, you just did Al Qaeda's job for them. You just did al-Qaeda's job. They want to take you off the battlefield, and you just took yourself off the battlefield. You can't go on deployment now. And that would always hit guys. And I think that that's the SEAL Teams kind of leaning in that direction more, realizing the negativity of alcohol. I wish I would have realized that earlier. I wish I would have been a better leader and recognize that in an earlier stage, and recognize that

just because I was kind of getting away with it, meaning I didn't wake up in the morning, oh, man, I can't wait to quit. I never really had that feeling. I wish I would have realized that there's other guys that do, and there's people that can operate and be functional and it doesn't really impact their lives, but there's a lot of people that don't. And I don't think it's worth the dice roll to start drinking. I just don't think it's worth the dice for what do you get out of it? So I think that overall

that's why if-- when I think about alcohol, I just think about all the lives that it's ruined, and I don't like it. And I wish I would have done a better job of saying, you know what, this is probably not good, and we shouldn't do this. And unfortunately I didn't, and I try and convey that message as much as I can now. And it did bring me back to my roots because when I was a kid, it was like alcohol is weak, and you look at these guys, they don't know what they're doing, they're acting

like idiots, I'm not going to be like that. And so as I got older, once I got on the SEAL Teams, I went back to that. As far as where I became me, I just actually have to give a lot of credit to the music that I grew up listening to, and the attitude that we had back then listening to hardcore music, being able to stand up against what other people were saying which is what you're doing when you're in that scene, and the whole DIY nature of it. Hey, we can just do this ourselves.

We can just make this happen for ourselves. We don't need anybody else. We can do this. And that hardcore attitude and sticking by your friends and standing up and getting in fights and that's what you're going to do, that's kind of my attitude. And I got interviewed for a documentary that they're making about Harley Flanagan and the Cro-mags, and when I was a kid and actually through my whole life, that music is the soundtrack to my life. And so I always would have that music running in my head. But to your question, I had something

in me that when I heard that music for the first time, I was like, OK, here it is. Here it is. I hear the Beatles, I hear the Grateful Dead, I hear the Rolling Stones, I hear whoever, and you go, OK, that's fine. But when I heard hardcore music for the first time, when I heard the Cro-Mags, when I heard Agnostic Front, when I heard the Bad Brains, I thought that was just like it was part of me already. And then it was the attitude, and again you can listen to my podcast with Harley Flanagan,

the way I viewed Harley Flanagan, the way I viewed the Cro-Mags was not the way they actually were. I mean, Harley was doing drugs, I mean, horrible drugs. He was on heroin, everything else, but his image was like straight edge, kind of spiritual, they had all that stuff going on and I thought, OK, well, that's who they are. But I didn't know, I'm like a kid living in the woods in Connecticut, I'm just glad to be hearing what I'm hearing. He listened to the lyrics, listen to the lyrics of Minor Threat, listen to the lyrics

and you go, OK, this stuff, I agree with this stuff. And I just think that that kind of set a datum in my head of being OK with being outside, being OK with saying no, being OK with being a rebel, being OK with not going along with what everyone else is doing. And that came that became very important when I was in the military, and I looked at what leadership might be telling me to do and might think to myself, hey, that doesn't seem like a good idea, and having the wherewithal to say, hey, boss,

I'm not sure this is a good idea. Not to be a jerk about it, but just to say there might be a better way to get this done. What do you think of this? Or, hey boss can I ask you a question about that? So I think if I had to trace it back having Black Flag My War side too on my record player for like a year and a half straight, that's going to leave a mark, man. And I think it left a mark on me. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love what you just said, and

when I say love, I really mean it because as we both know we share a common love for certain music, in particular Minor Threat and some stuff from the punk rock scene. In particular for me, the Northeast punk rock scene, the Bruisers, all borrowed from the Bruisers, and now people know him as the lead singer for the Dropkick Murphys. Before that was the Bruisers. And we run the risk of going deep down a rabbit hole of music that most people may or may not be familiar with, although most people have heard the dropkicks, but yeah,

I'm right there with you. I mean, I remember the first time hearing Stiff Little Fingers or Rancid and even Bouncing Souls for New Jersey-- not even Bouncing Souls. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry, Brian and Greg. No, the Bouncing Souls and going, yes, that's me. That's it. But as you said, it was already in you. It's like a recognition, and I bring this up, and I want to highlight it, not because we share this, although I do find that to be an amazing kinship that we felt right away, and it was like we probably riffed for 25 hours

just on that. But it brings me back to this idea that-- certainly is not my idea. Actually the first time I heard about it was from Robert Greene who wrote the book Mastery, and some important writings, what was it? I think it was the-- I forget how many laws of power, but those books, Robert Green Mastery is actually a book that I highly recommend. People read because it talks about mentorship and finding mentors and the fact that we're supposed to break up and move on from mentors, and that mentors aren't always people that we know

or that know us, et cetera. Amazing book, really. But he was the first person I ever heard describe this idea that if we think back long enough, there's some seed moment, they were shopping for the pants, it sounds like it was, but also music where you see something and it's like, yes, that's me and I'm that. And then that becomes a sort of soundtrack or visual image or something for your life that you carry forward with you. The neuroscientist in me wants to say that that is the first time that we really tap into this

dopamine system in a way that is unique to us, because every child responds to food with a little bit of dopamine when we're hungry, responds to warmth when we're cold, responds to a warm dry diaper after we just wet ourselves, which we all did. I don't know maybe, Jocko, you change your own diapers. [LAUGHTER] But I'm guessing that someone changed your diaper at one point, not an image path we need to go down. But the idea is that we all have these universal sources of having our needs met, going from discomfort to comfort and back

again, which is basically childhood. But at some point, something comes along that we really feel is unique to us, and it may be the thing that everyone else likes, maybe it's top 40 or whatever it is. Maybe it's the shoe that everyone's wearing that seems good. But I do think that there are certain people who are kind of 10 or 20 or maybe even 180 degrees off from what everyone else likes and they're like, that thing is what's really cool, and it's a felt thing. And so along the lines of felt things as opposed to

things that everyone values, what are your sources of motivation. And I'm going to guess that some of them are internal. We could point ahead or we could point to heart. Doesn't really matter, but like when you think of sources of motivation, do you have a palette of them that you can dip into? Do you even feel the need to dip into them, or is it really just all about action steps throughout your day? Or if I can even venture into somewhat harder stories that I've heard you talk about, do you sometimes think back, listen, I'm

going to do this because there are a bunch of guys that are dead now that can't, and so I'm going to do it because I can. What are the paints on your motivation pallet, if you will? JOCKO WILLINK: Well, you probably heard me say that motivation isn't something that I am going to count on because it's just an emotion that's going to come and go, and it's just like feeling happy. You feel happy right now, maybe you won't feel happy in 15 minutes. You feel sad now, maybe you won't feel sad in 15 minutes. You

feel motivated right now, you might not feel motivated in 15 minutes. Therefore I can't rely on it. So I'm not going to put any-- I'm not going to put any money on just being motivated because it doesn't really matter to me. So the daily actions that I take aren't from motivation, they're just from discipline. Like I said earlier, I'm not going to get up and go through some big debate about, well, do I really feel like doing this? No, I don't feel like doing it, but doesn't matter, so I'm just going to go do it.

Now if we start to look at a broader movement through life and continuing to try and move forward and move on, my buddy Seth died, and he was the Delta Platoon commander in tasking a bruiser. And he died in 2017, and it was in a parachute accident. I mean, it's definitely unexpected, and also he'd already been through multiple deployments, was with me in the Battle of Ramadi, he then went back into Sadr City and led a ton of very dangerous operations. And then he did other deployments, and was kind of done with his deployments, kind

of done. And now he's just talking about when he's going to retire, and he's a couple of years away from retirement, and I'm talking about, hey, we're going to work together again. And it all seems like we're on a pretty good path to just move forward. And then he ends up dying in a parachute accident. And he's a guy that was really just kind of you're not going to be able to replace. There's a uniqueness to him that is you're not going to find, and I've got some stuff that he wrote. He was an incredible

writer, and I try and write something like him, and we can't do it because he had a bigger vocabulary and a more articulate way of writing. And so I can't write anything as well as he wrote it. He was incredible at guitar, he played guitar, played ukulele like sick, like an incredible at playing guitar, and he's a total knuckle dragger. Like a total meat head knuckle dragger. His nickname was Unfrozen Caveman because he just look like a big caveman and yet he spoke French, and could recite French poetry. And was really good at learning languages,

and he was an artist, and he had-- do you know what synesthesia is? Do you know that is? ANDREW HUBERMAN: A merging of the senses so people that can see colors and-- JOCKO WILLINK: So he didn't know what it was-- ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm sorry, see colors. I hope most people can see colors-- sorry, that can hear colors and can associate particular colors with sound like particular keys on the piano. It's pretty rare. Some people think they have it, but true synesthesia are pretty rare, but they don't have to fight for this trait. It just kind

of emerges for them. JOCKO WILLINK: He didn't know it. But one day he was talking to me, and he was embarrassed to tell me. He's like, what's weird is when I think of numbers, I have colors in my head. And I go, what do you mean? And he says, hollow was zero, and I remember seven is yellow. I don't remember any of them, but he just rattled off like 123456789. He says, hollow, white, clear, just rattled off these colors. He had that synesthesia, and it gave him some kind of weird ability to memorize numbers. So

he'd be in a bar and talk to some girl and he'd say, what's your number? And he would just-- he would know it for two years. He would just know it. And that also made him incredibly good at playing guitar because now like the scale and the fretboard of a guitar, it's a mathematical thing that he has all in this weird coloration scenario going on. So he's this guy and a very emotional guy. A very emotional guy who would-- I was talking earlier about being a balance for someone. I had to balance this dude out

on a daily basis sometimes. He'd be so mad about something. One day he'd be, I hate the Teams. I hate all these guys. And I'd say, yeah, I get it, man. And the next day, I'm never getting out of the Teams. He would oscillate that bad, and I would tell him, hey, bro, you're oscillating again, and just would do anything. And he loved these guys and would do anything for his guys. And so when he died, we're at his-- it's not his funeral, it's before the funeral. It's like the open casket thing, the wake thing,

and myself, his brother, Alex, Leif Babin who I wrote Extreme Ownership with and JP O'Donnell, who's one of my brothers who works with us at Arsenal on Front now is with us in Ramadi and was very close to Seth, and everyone kind of cleared out for us. And we go in there, and I think JP gave him-- JP had one of those Memorial bracelets with guys' names on it that had died and JP gave that to him. And I think Leif gave him some surf wax because also Seth was a surfer, and I gave Seth

his black belt because he started training jiu-jitsu with me and he had his purple belt. He had gotten his purple belt, I gave him his black belt and everyone was just quiet. And JP was telling the story the other day and I just said, we will not fail him, meaning that him Mark, Mikey, Chris, Seth, and countless other guys they're not here. They don't have the opportunity to do the things we do. They don't have the opportunity to get up in the morning. So that's what it is, man. I won't fail those guys. ANDREW HUBERMAN:

Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, thank God. Anyone listening to this feels what I feel right now, which is very clear that the depth of emotion for people that we care about and lose has everything to do with our love for them. There's just no question about it. The grief and love are so intimately tied. They are a direct reflection of one another. And I hesitate to kind of stay on hard themes, but I think it's really important for a couple of reasons. Last time we spoke, it was in your office and your podcast, and after

we wrapped up, we started talking about some people we know and some things that had happened in your community, and kind of spooled into some discussions about things that happened in nearby communities and civilian culture. And one of the things that's so perplexing I think to people, including me but maybe with time less so, and this actually came up last night in a discussion at home because of some recent events, not close to me, but is that some people go through things where there's loss, they go through life and there's hardship. I think most people

experience some hardship certainly some more than others. And every once in a while and far too often, and even in the SEAL Team community, and even in the various communities within the SEAL Team community where one would never expect it, these are highly trained tight community, hard guys, that's the language we sometimes hear, but as you point out, these are people often that have tremendous emotional depth. And I'm so glad that you brought that up because I think we sometimes think of emotion as weakness, but there was a time, not long ago, 40, 50 years

ago, where emotions like jealousy and intensity, think the character Sonny and the Godfather, he would get so pissed, he would bite his own fist, that's a pretty emotional response where intensity and emotion were kind of interchangeable words at some level. I'm going to be direct. There have been a lot of guys coming out of the SEAL Teams. I've been surprised to hear they kill themselves, and yesterday there was a major suicide. I didn't know this guy in person, we actually followed each other on social media, but I admittedly was not close to him, didn't know

him at all. In fact, his name was Twitch or something, and he was this guy, he was a public facing figure. But listen, happens all too often, and even happens in former operators. And suicide is something that fascinates me and intrigues me and scares the hell out of me because for the life of me, I cannot map it to any specific thing in the brain or body that we're aware of, and yet I've had several friends commit suicide, had my undergrad advisor committed suicide. The point is not them or their story. The point is what

in the world dictates whether or not somebody who has a community, who's doing well and then less well decides to offer themselves to end their own life, versus decide I'm going to keep going? I mean, this is I'm raising this as a question. I wish I had an answer I used to have ideas like, Oh, it's time perception. These people are so miserable, feeling so miserable that they feel it's going to go on forever. But then you start reading the literature on suicide, and I've started to go into this. For those of you that can

stomach it, and I don't know that I want to recommend this movie but I'm just going to say it exists, the movie The Bridge where they fix the camera on the Golden Gate Bridge for a year, it turns out one person a day on average tries to jump off. They talk to a guy who survived it. By the way he jumped off the moment he went off there. He thought I wish I hadn't done that. He survived. This kid with bipolar. Bipolar disorder, especially males, 20 to 30 times higher incidents of suicide. Massive increase. The

point is that there's something that happens in the brain where somehow people also will get the idea, and you hear this, that this is something they're excited to do, or that they're going to write the world somehow by doing this, or that somehow it's like a gift to themselves. Again, I'm not encouraging anybody to do this. I want to be very clear, but these are the things that you hear. And sadly, your community has lost a number of people through suicide, and yet there are a lot of guys that thrive. And so more as a

template for trying to understand mental health and depression and suicide, what are your thoughts on why some people seem to thrive, and some people just go all the way down? JOCKO WILLINK: Clearly, that's a very complex question, and there's probably a lot of different answers. And I certainly am not one to be able to answer that question. However, probably where my thought has gone on this lately because I've known some guys that have killed themselves and I've been totally shocked, and just been completely and totally shocked that guys that I knew killed themselves. Guys that

you would think, Oh, this guy would never do this in a million years. And that's the feeling I've had about a lot of the guys that I know that have killed themselves. I had a woman on my podcast named Sarah Wilkinson, and she's an awesome woman, and she was married to a SEAL. His name was Chad. I didn't know him. He killed himself. And to hear her describe the story, the shocking thing about the story is that the guy that she knew, the guy that she married was not the same guy that killed himself. Something

happened to him that made him a different person. And look, they're getting all this information now about CTE and the brain trauma that you go through, and people are exposed to that. And I think if you've ever seen George Foreman, he seems totally normal and good to go, and Muhammad Ali, not so much. And I've known fighters, and you can look at any number of boxers that have had a career, and some of them are fine, and some of them have some real significant-- what is it? Pugilistic. There's a pugilistic syndrome. They've been punched too

much and they have problems. You can expose different people to blast impact, and it's going to have a different impact over time. And I think that, again, to hear Sarah explain that story and what she saw from her husband and how different he was when they got married compared to where they ended up, it's totally different. A totally different person. I had another friend of mine on who named Marcus Capone, and his wife came on with him, and she said the same thing. The guy that she married was not the same guy that was ready

to kill himself, and he didn't, thankfully. It was a different person. Look, if Fred is married to some woman, and Fred and Jessica grow apart over time and he ends up with some other girl, it's still the same guy. it's still the same guy that is now, look, they grew apart, they're getting divorced, we get it. But the way that both of them described their husbands as being different people. That's what stuck with me more than anything else. So I-- again, I'm throwing this out there only because it's what I've observed through the people that

I know, and seeing and hearing those stories of people being totally different. And I've known a few people-- one of my friends, Dave, killed himself. I never would have guessed in a million years that Dave would kill himself. It just it doesn't compute. It doesn't compute. And so my suspicion is there has to be something going on mechanically or chemically with the brain that causes them to get into a mode where they're depressed and they don't see a way out, and that's the way they feel now. And again, what's interesting about this is we already

talked about the fact that the selection process weeds out guys that are going to take a loss and not be able to get up again. No, you've got-- SEALS can take a loss and get back up again. That's what you learn how to do in bed. Well, that's what you-- you don't lean how to do it, you have it. And if you make it through that training, you have that ability to take a loss, all right, cool. Shake it off, get back up, keep going. They're going to do that to you. So now you've got

guys that are taking a loss and they don't see a way out anymore, in fact, to such a point that they're going to take their own lives, it's my suspicion is at some point they're going to figure out that this exposure to the adrenaline, the explosions all the time-- I mean, you go out to a range-- just in peacetime-- you go out to a range, and you shoot a Carl Gustav. And you're a range safety officer, so you go out there with every guy that's shooting a Carl Gustav, it's a big, giant, like bazooka looking

weapon. And every time you shoot it, it rattles your cage a little bit. Well, if you're a range safety officer, and you're out there, and you're going to watch everyone in the platoon shoot three of those, it's going to have an impact. Then you go overseas, and you're a breacher, or you're part of a breach team-- I mean, I had a time where one of my guys were doing an assault on a compound. I'm on the ladder-- most buildings in Iraq have a wall around them. So the way we would conduct these raids, put the

ladder up, the assault-- breach team would climb over the ladder, and I would go right behind the breach team, and I would stand on the ladder. So I'm looking at the building, observing, making sure there's no waking up, make sure there's no threats. And then as I'm watching, this guy in particular, he puts the breach on the door, explosive breach, so he's going to blow the door up. He's got his little team with him. He puts the breach on the door. He starts to back away, and there's like an obstacle there. It was like a

freaking table, or a lawn chair, or something. And he couldn't get around it. And I'm sitting there. It's dark. I mean, it's the middle of the night. It's 2:00 o'clock in the morning. And I'm like, I wonder what he's going to do. And he seem stuck for a second. And then I just see him lay down. And I'm like oh, he's just going to take this thing. And sure enough, three or four feet away from this breech point, he lays down and just clacks off this explosive charge. And I jump over the wall. And as

I'm going in, I'm trying to get the rest of the platoon to go and commence this assault. I look at him, he looked like he just got hit in the head with a baseball bat. And guess what he did the next night? Another breach on another target. Guess what he did the next night? Another breach on another target. So you get guys that have that exposure, which is-- I mean, every seal is eating a breach. I mean, you're eating flashbangs, you're eating breaches, you're shooting 50 cals. You're eating some traumatic brain injury. But then you

must have some people that have some genetic propensity to have this negative thing happen. And I can only guess, man, that this has something to do with it because otherwise, we wouldn't be hearing so many of these stories. And of course, we're just talking about the SEAL Teams. We're not talking about the military writ large, which is in the same exact boat. I'm also nervous about the social contagion of suicide within the veteran community. I'm nervous about that. It's one of the things that makes me apprehensive about talking about it, but I obviously I've talked

about it. I've had people on my podcast to discuss these things, but I am worried about that social contagion of man, Fred did it. He got all this attention, and he doesn't have to deal with anything anymore. I'm going to do it too. There's got to be some level of that going on as well. So it's a horrible situation. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, the social contagion part is one that hits home from a different dimension. The high school I went to which is-- name isn't important. But Gunn High School, G-U-N-N. Gunn High School is famous for

being one of the better public high schools. Not that I attended as much as I should have. I can tell you more about the curbs in the parking lot than I could tell you about the classes I took. And that's just not encouraging people to not attend high school. Please do it. Took a lot of really hard work to climb back up to where I should have been when I graduated. But it has an infamous reputation, or I'll say reputation as an infamous school because it's one of the highest suicide rates than any of the

schools in the country because there's train tracks that run through town, and there was a contagion of kids throwing themselves on the train tracks. This was happening a lot. This was written up in various newspapers, et cetera. Fortunately, it seems to have died down. Again, I'm also hesitant to talk about this because no one wants to spark this. But there does seem to be something about lack of ability to see into a future obviously. Or the future that people are seeing into is so dark that somehow they lose touch with the idea that emotions come

and go. You said it about motivation, emotions come and go. But somehow people lose touch with that. And then I will venture a guess. And here I'm hoping someone's going to figure this out at some point so we can have a more concrete conversation about the mechanisms and what to do about it. But I think there's also something about identity, about loss of a place to put one's energy. Something useful in the world. If you're agenda-- what you're talking about here are guys that are generators. They are not projectors, they're generators. They live to have

effective action on the world for good and then end up killing themselves. In youth, it's a little more complicated to put a finger on because what's going on there. We assume depression. But then in learning more about suicide, there is also this excitement for certain people about solving something that seemed unsolvable any other way. And again, I'm certainly not encouraging this. I-- strongly discouraging people from taking their own life, obviously. But something about time and the loss of perception about time. And one thing that we know for sure here we can really hang our hat

on something is that if you do the forensics on somebody that was suicidal, attempted, or took their life, in the preceding days and weeks, their sleep-wake schedule was completely wacked. They exit the normal routine of most people. They isolate through inversions of time. And I do wonder sometimes whether or not the vampire ships, as they're sometimes called, the nighttime deployment, and the back and forth, I mean, that's a lot for a system to take. Shift workers kill themselves far more than nonshift workers. So I do think there's something there. And again, I'm not saying everyone

needs to be in bed by 9:00 and up by 4:00. Although that would be a great schedule for most people. But I do think that there are some universal laws of what makes the human body and brain healthy. And if you violate those laws long enough with CTE, or with disruption in your schedules, you run the risk, especially if there's a predisposition there. And then other factors start to layer in. Again-- and I have to apologize because I don't have any real answers, or more biology, or psychology to firmly throw out this except the warning

for people who are bipolar or know somebody with bipolar. They are 20 to 30 times more likely to kill themselves. And males in particular are more likely to use methods that will kill them in the first time as opposed to survive. There's a big sex difference there. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah. You throw alcohol in there too. And Marcus is running an organization now where they're taking vets down to do the psychedelic-- what do they call it? A journey. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, this is Veterans Solutions? JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah. ANDREW HUBERMAN: They are a great organization. JOCKO WILLINK:

Yeah. ANDREW HUBERMAN: And I should mention a very bipartisan organization. I attended one event on Coronado. And there were people from the far-left, the far-right politicians, and everything in between talking about how critical this is. So this is not a political issue. This is a mental health issue. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, and even when I reflected on Marcus talking to me, he was talking about how he's in this downward spiral. Part of the downward spiral, he was drinking every day. And I'm thinking to myself, man, like-- I didn't think of it during the show. I was

thinking about it afterwards. I was thinking, man, if you're drinking all the time, you're on a downward spiral. That's one thing you should just stop. Let's stop that immediately. So I just wanted to throw that out there. I think that's another sign from the outside looking in. If someone's self-medicating with alcohol, it's not a good place, not a good place. They're not in a good place, and they could probably use some help. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I appreciate you saying it again. We did this episode on alcohol. I went into it totally open minded. I've never been

a big drinker. I've had it. I can drink or not drink. I was never really into drugs at all. Dabbled a little bit when I was younger. I regret it frankly. Brain is plastic early on, I didn't need that. Never did hard drugs. Never touched cocaine, amphetamine, or anything like that. And if I had, I would say. I'm comfortable enough in my position in life that if I had, I'd certainly say. But I think that it's pretty clear that alcohol is bad for us certainly past a certain two drink a week limit. People especially with

a propensity for alcoholism or who are dealing with other issues, that's especially the case for not drinking. And I guess we've gotten into some hard territory here. But I think if this conversation cues up an awareness to anybody, which I hope it would, either people that are in that space of wondering if they should continue or not, or that know somebody who might be, I do think that the takeaway is very clear, which is that there are ways to avoid these traps and to avoid making these traps worse. And I think with regular sleep-wake schedules,

understanding that-- and I wrote this down that you've particular have said several times that rather than looking for sources of things outside like a job, or a relationship, which are all great. But as sources of energy, or motivation, or inspiration, to use positive action as a source of energy. I think is just-- if I could put that up on a billboard in Times Square, I would. And I'd put your name next to it, which is that positive action is a source of energy that then you can recycle into more things. I think-- JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: --going back to the fundamentals, right? JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah. And positive action is when you have to contend with something. When there's something that you're afraid of, step into it, move towards it. That's how you're going to solve that problem. You don't you don't solve problems by running away from them. You solve them by moving towards them and figuring out what's going on. And I mean, alcohol is obviously a clear way to avoid the problem at least for the next four hours. And you wake up, and that problem is still there. And that's not

good. But when you've got some problem-- and listen, then we could go down the whole path of talking about the indirect approach, which is a theory of combat which I completely believe in. But it also applies to interacting with other people. If you have a problem with some other person, to think, oh, I got a problem with Andrew. I'm going to go confront him on it. And that might not be the best solution. In fact, it's probably not the best solution for me to go confront you with the problem because now we're going to have

a confrontation. It might be better for me to take an indirect approach and not confront you but instead, engage in a conversation with you about something that's maybe adjacent to the problem that I have. And then eventually that builds our relationship to a point where you start to recognize, oh, I bet Jocko feels something about this thing. And we can move towards a solution instead of me trying to punch you in the face with some truth that I believe versus the truth that you believe. And now we're engaged in combat, and that's bad. There's going

to be casualties. I'd rather take an indirect approach and build a relationship where we can solve problems in a more positive way. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love that. And I love it because it really speaks to the power of thinking carefully and being patient and a little bit slower at times. I also heard you say something earlier that's still flagging in my mind, which is not thinking too much. I think seems to be a time where thinking too much is very dangerous. And again, we can keep the discussion that we were having about mental health, or

we could even just call it what it is, mental illness. I think everyone would agree suicide is some reflection of an unhealthy state. We can keep that in the backdrop as we talk about this, but this isn't necessarily only about that. You seem to have an ability to engage in things without thinking too much. And yet also to sit back and be pretty observant. And you've talked about third personing of the self. I'd love to talk a little bit more about this even though it's a topic you've delved into before. And in particular the topic

of meditation. I've been reading more about meditation. I've meditated for different stretches in my life, different amounts of time. And there are two basic forms of meditation that I only recently learned about. One is a focused attention meditation. Your sitting, closing your eyes, focusing on your breath, body, body surface, or even a visual target in your environment and just focus. And we know that enhances one's ability to focus. If you do too late in the day, it also enhance your ability to not fall asleep. A lot of people don't realize that meditation too late in

the day, if it's a focused meditation, you're just ramping up the activity in the prefrontal cortex. It's a great tool for getting better at focusing. But then there's also this type of meditation called open observer meditation where you purposefully don't include a target in your mind, or in your vision, or in your hearing. And you just sit there, eyes closed, your eyes open, and you go into a place of whatever comes up, but you don't hover there too long. The goal is to not hover on any one thing, which sounds like deliberate attention deficit disorder.

But it's actually a pretty cool method it turns out for restoring our ability to engage in focus but also for one particular thing that you mentioned earlier, which is creativity and creative problem solving, which of course, requires accessing, let's just say, more colors on the palette than your vision might be on. Realizing, oh, there's also all these other colors over here in the periphery that I'm missing because I'm hyperfocused. Do you meditate? If you do meditate, is it more of an open monitoring or a focused meditation? And if you don't do a standard meditation, are

there times throughout your day, and your routine, and your week where as I'm describing this, it maps to something that feels like open monitoring or focused meditation? JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, so no, I don't meditate. I haven't ever. I don't think I've ever actually meditated for one second in my life. And I-- ANDREW HUBERMAN: And I refuse to. JOCKO WILLINK: --no, no, it's not that at all. I know Sam Harris sent me his app, and we were going to do a podcast. And I said, dude, I'll do it for two weeks, and we'll do a podcast,

and I'll be more enlightened and everything. And I didn't even give Sam Harris two weeks. So I still owe Sam Harris two weeks on his app of meditation so we can see how it impacts me. But no I've never done it before. I've never tried to do it. And that being said, if the goal is to take a step back and detach from what's going on, I do that all day, every day. And so that is something that I've talked about, and it's something I tried to teach. I tried to teach the young SEAL leaders

not to get caught up in what's happening right in front of them but to take a step back, detach from the situation, detach from their emotions. See more of what's happening. You're talking about seeing more colors of the palette, well, on the battlefield, I want people to be able to see more angles, more maneuvers, more opportunities, more of what the enemy might do, more perspective. That's what I always try to achieve. And so I'm sorry, I apologize, I can't give you any good discussion on meditation because I haven't tried it. ANDREW HUBERMAN: No apology necessary.

But I will ask, when you go surfing, and you're sitting in the water waiting for a wave, are you focused on one particular location on the horizon, or are you in open monitoring, just enjoying just bouncing up and down in the water. Like where is your attention during activities like that? JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah. So surfing-- oftentimes surfing, you're a monkey mind, and you're just not thinking about anything. Same thing with jujitsu. Also with surfing, if you're waiting for a wave, your mind is just going. I mean, it's in another universe sometimes as you're sitting there

waiting because you're just looking out at the horizon. And your mind-- I mean, my mind, I'm thinking about all kinds-- I have to come home sometimes and write notes because I thought of this, I thought of an idea, I thought of a perspective. That happens to me at jujitsu. That happens to me talking to people where someone's talking about something, I'm like oh, I got an idea right now. I would go write that down. I have to go and write it down. I have notes in my phone like pages and pages and pages of notes

in my phone of ideas that I have, and I write them down. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Do you voice memo things or do-- JOCKO WILLINK: No, I type them. ANDREW HUBERMAN: --yeah. JOCKO WILLINK: I only need to type like seven words on and then I have the whole ideas in my head. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I put a lot into the notes in my phone as well. And it probably looks like gibberish to a lot of people. I go back through them when I'm on the plane, especially problems I was challenged with 10 years ago or something. And I

look like, oh, my God, I'm dealing with the same thing, different situation, same me, right? JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah. ANDREW HUBERMAN: We had an amazing psychiatrist on the show, but I'd love to hear a conversation between the two of you. His name is Paul Conti. He was trained at Stanford and Harvard. He's an amazing guy. Actually, talks openly about the tragedy that his brother killed himself, which was what drove him into psychiatry. And he's an interesting guy because he's obviously highly educated, incredibly smart. He wrote a book on trauma, but he has incredible knowledge about a

number of other areas of psychology, including narcissism, sociopathy. He's worked in a lot of really interesting domains with interesting people that everyone listening on his podcast would recognize. Of course, he's not going to reveal who those people are. And he talks about the fact that you can look at different people. He was actually the one that shared with me this notion of generators and projectors, and directed me towards that literature. But when he came on the podcast, he talked a little bit about that stuff, but he talked mostly about trauma. But then we were talking

about ways in which people engage in the world and different archetypes. And how you start looking at stories throughout history, and you start seeing the same themes over and over. Westerns, this idea of a guy rides into town and does some repair work like defeats the sinister person or things that are imposing all the time then rides to the next town. It's always like it ends with-- it's going to keep continuing. But then when he got into this discussion of relationship, he talks about-- he said this on the podcast of a patient who said, I've

been in 10 abusive relationships. And he'd say to that patient, no, you've been in one relationship 10 times, which is essentially it's all about your issue. That's not you. I'm not-- purposely didn't point at you for those listening. And I think that those features of ourselves that we bring from condition to condition can be negative or they can be positive. One thing that's interesting-- and here I'm not trying to solve or understand the SEAL team community per se, but I think they represent an important archetype because they are selected for this ability to take hard

conditions and failures and turn them into wins. That's one of the selection criteria, seems to be. They're finding who has that capability. I see a lot of-- and I happen to know a few people from the SEAL Teams who get out and do really well. They have great business. You're a shining example of this. And you have a family, and you know you've got German shepherd too. We'll talk about animals in a little bit. You have a dog. And it's like you surf, and you train. And I'm sure you have your dark places, dark moments

and challenges like anybody else, but things look to me like they're going pretty well. And then I also know people from the SEAL Teams. OK, they don't go down the path of suicide fortunately. But it's they don't do as well as I would have thought. And I'm certainly not picking on this community. I also see this from people who are professional athletes. I know kids that were phenomenal in high school. I mean, these are like early admission to all the Ivy League schools because that was what happened in the town that I grew up in.

And I look at them now, and I'm like, wow, That-- gosh, it didn't-- somehow it's not working out. And I think it's important for people to hear that yes, winning creates the propensity for more winning. But then why do you think it is that in a community where people are trained to solve problems, adapt, and make things work, some people flourish outside the military, and some flourish less, and some-- we already talked about-- really go down the dark traps. What do you think is the quality that allows people to be really adaptable? In particular, because

most of us live in a landscape where we have to deal with people who are not us. Like people that are not good at what we're good at. And sometimes that's an asset, sometimes it's not. You seem to be particularly good at understanding the human animal and working with that. So again, this is a broad question. We're going very broadband here, and we'll get narrower again in a little bit. But I'd love your thoughts on why is it? How is it? What determines whether or not somebody thrives in novel environments? JOCKO WILLINK: I have to

start off just by saying I wrote a note as you were talking. I just put SEAL and then I put the not equals sign. Because you can't say that a SEAL equals anything. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Excellent point. JOCKO WILLINK: I mean, there's guys that have been in the SEAL Teams that are murderers. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Like real life murderers. JOCKO WILLINK: Like murderers. Like rapists and murderers that went through SEAL training. Rapists, murderers, and they're in prison for the rest of their lives. Like that's a thing. There's people that have been in the SEAL Teams that got

kicked out of SEAL Teams for drugs. I mean, you name it, and we've got that. And we've got guys that are just lazy, and we've got guys that-- ANDREW HUBERMAN: And physicians-- you could say this about physicians. There have been sociopathic serial killer physicians and then there are ones that are in third world countries right now that would not accept $1,000,000,000 to stop serving people at the level of the basic medicine that they deserve. JOCKO WILLINK: So there's the seals that get out and just volunteer to go help in the worst places in the world.

So you've got a full spectrum of people. So to say a SEAL equals success in any domain, the only domain you can say that they're successful is they made it through basic SEAL training because guys make it through basic SEAL training, and they're not good SEALs. That happens. So you get guys that make it through basic SEAL training, and they make it through SEAL qualification training, and they make it to a SEAL team, and they get kicked out of the SEAL Teams because they're not good SEALs. They weren't meant to do that job. That happens.

So all they've proven by making it through basic SEAL training is they can suck it up for a while. And there's also guys that make it through basic SEAL training because they learned how to maneuver through the system. They learned what to do, and what the minimum requirements were, and how they could skate through this. There's guys like that. It's not a huge number, but they're absolutely there. ANDREW HUBERMAN: We see them in science. People that go to a lab, figure out who the director of the lab is at the level of psychology-- and this

is actually one of the more dangerous aspects of science. It actually negatively impacts all of society. I'll just say it. And any scientist will know what I'm talking about. They find the big famous labs, they figure out who that leader of the lab is, and they get that person the data they want. They might not make the data up, but they will certainly discard the data that don't fit, which is one way of making data up by exclusion. It's not literally like painting pictures of cells that aren't there or something. But that happens a lot,

and those people often go far. They rarely go all the way because pretty soon their reputation expands to the point where people go like, yeah, no one can repeat that result. But these people sit in very high positions. Not at Stanford. I will say, I don't know any of my colleagues at Stanford that meet those criteria. But you see them, and you see what they're doing, and they're basically solving a social engineering thing. They just happen to be doing it in science. Now, why anyone would do that in science? I don't know because you don't

get rich in science. You certainly don't get famous. But for whatever reason, they figured it out that that's where they're going to do it. And I'm sure you see it in law firms. I'm sure you see it in every single domain-- JOCKO WILLINK: Everything ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. JOCKO WILLINK: Now, you pointed out that there's some people that make it to the Ivy League schools, and they graduate from an Ivy League school, and they don't do well. And to me, that's very similar to someone that might make it to the SEAL Teams, do well in the

SEAL Teams, and then they get out, and they don't do well. It's probably because of what I talked about earlier when I went to Navy boot camp. Here's what you got to do. If you do it well, you'll be rewarded. Well, if you're in high school, and your mom and dad say, hey, if you do good in high school, you're going to get into this Ivy League school, and you get into that Ivy League school. And here's what you need to do in high school, you need to get good grades. You need to be part

of the Glee club. You need whatever the things are that you got to do. You've got to speak a different language. You've got to go volunteer in Guatemala in the summertime. You've got to do these things, and then you'll get into the good college. Once you get into the good college, you've got to get this degree. Once you get that degree-- So they've had a path laid out for them of boxes to check, and they go and check the boxes. And then when they get done, no one has put any more boxes out in front

of them, so they don't know what to do. And that can certainly happen from someone in the SEAL Teams, or someone in the military that what they've been-- hey, this is your mission. This is what you've got to do. Here's what you need to do, do it well. Check the box. Check the box. Check the box. Check the box. And then it's time to retire, and there's no one putting a box in front of him to check. And so unless someone-- some guys get out of the SEAL Teams, and they go into a big corporate

structure, and they kick ass. Because there's someone in the corporate world saying, hey, here's what you got to do next. And they do great. And that's super good for them, and they actually really like it. I was talking to a guy the other day. He's like full on in a corporation. He's doing a great job. He likes what he's doing. It's awesome. But I think you get some guys that they don't really have the open mind to see where opportunities are. And one thing that's nice about the SEAL Teams is there's a lot of-- you

get a lot of freedom of maneuver. You can really do a lot of stuff that you want to do. And so when they look at the corporate world, they don't see that, and they think, oh, I'm not going to do that. But then they're not quite sure how to take the next step. So I think that's why you might see some guys that aren't super successful because they don't really know what to do. And they don't really have a mind that's open to look for opportunities. And also you got some guys that success for them

is they're going to hang out with their family, and they're going to get in good shape, and they're going to run some triathlons or compete in-- whatever they're going to do, they're going to go do it, and that's what they're looking to do, which is also awesome. Go take time, go enjoy your family, man. You gave enough to your country. Go hang out with your kids. That's success as far as I'm concerned too. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I agree there. I know far too many people who are successful in their professional lives but who have very diminished

personal lives, and it is not a pretty picture. You mentioned the parent driving the kid, do this, do that. In that scenario, I sense tons of fear. It's all about not being a failure. It's not actually about love of your craft or what you enjoy. Pretty early in my science career, I learned that there are certain people are just ambitious. They just like to win. And I used to joke around. It's not polite, but I used to go, we should all just tell that person that the new cool thing is trying to understand the biology

of like-- and I would say feces or something. And they'd probably work on it. They'd be like, yeah, it's like the greatest thing because they actually don't care what they're working on. For them it's just the hunt. And I learned that actually people like that can serve an important role because like well, there's actually a whole microbiome. There are actually labs that do work on feces, so forgive me my colleagues that work on microbiomes. But in all seriousness, people who are just ambitious can be very effective because you put a problem in front of them,

and it's like a dog, they'll just retrieve. It's they're just go. As opposed to love of retrieving-- for retrieving sake. It's like you give that same dog-- the analogy here would be give that same dog a high jump, and they're into high jumping, or whatever it is, or diving underwater. But I think of people more like animals and more like different dog species. Like we-- as your case was with music, particular music, and communities, or the example of shopping for the pants and that experience of the first time you tap into something that really feels

unique to you. You're like there's something here. To be able to find work that includes that but also is hard and also allows you to evolve over time, I mean, I think that's the real gift that I think most people are seeking. And of course, there's no shortcut to that except perhaps one, which is to be able to sense the difference between ambition. And there's no better word for it, let's just call it what it is, which is love. Like I love this. And the reason I think that love is so powerful-- and here I'm

sounding like Lex Fridman-- but I don't mean interelational love. I mean, being able to sense what that feels like is that I do believe that it allows us to tap into an enormous number of things that fear alone and ambition alone and just being a hard driving person alone will not allow us to tap into. Things like adaptiveness, creativity. And I think there's a really obvious reason for it, which is that the one thing we know about our species is that we want to make more of ourselves and to take good care of our young.

Whether or not everyone has kids or not is irrelevant. The point is that every species not only wants to do that but need to do that. And the feeling of love is really what allows us to be adaptable. I don't think there's anything that trains up adaptability as much as being around kids. You just have to be adaptable because they're one moment they're up then they're down then they're disappointed. And you shared a really important story about loss of somebody that clearly you loved and that clearly loved the community he worked in. It wasn't just

that you guys loved him, It's that he loved you guys. And I think that being able to tap into these feelings of love for things, for people, and for experiences, I think is so critical. And I don't meditate much these days, but I have heard of this love and kindness meditation. And it sounds so soft to me. I was thinking like, gosh, what am I supposed to do? Then float like levitate at the end? And wear a mumu or whatever it's called. I don't know what's the thing. But my friend who I'm fortunate to call

a friend. Not trying to name drop here, but I'm very fortunate to call Rick Rubin, the music producer, a friend. And he was the one who started turning me on to different forms of meditation, the ones I mentioned before. And this idea that there are forms of meditation which put us in touch with what he calls the source. Now, this is really getting a little mystical, but I think this all maps back to the same thing, which is that there are sources of dopamine and the other neurotransmitters in us that give us a super power

to adapt to anything. And I think it's at least includes love because that's the most adaptable emotion by definition because of what's required for evolution. So the question therefore is, in yourself and in your observation of people that you've worked with, did you ever sense that just being hard driving was great but it was limiting? Did you ever sense that by liking the people you work with you could perform much better even if they perhaps were not as hard-- to kind of borrow the common parlance around this-- they weren't as hard as everybody else? That

because you like each other so, so much that you can do anything? JOCKO WILLINK: Well, if you have a team of 10 people, and you all have a great relationship and you get along well, and you're going against my team and we all hate each other, who's going to win? ANDREW HUBERMAN: The team that loves each other is going to win, I would hope. JOCKO WILLINK: It's not even close. It's not even-- a matter of fact, if you work for me and you don't like me, what performance are you going to give me? ANDREW HUBERMAN:

It's going to be tough. JOCKO WILLINK: What if you love me, and I've looked out for you, and I've done everything for you, and I've taken care of you, what kind of performance are you going to give me? Everything you've got. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'd die for you. JOCKO WILLINK: So yeah, earlier you asked about the human animal and human nature. And this is part of leadership. I got asked this question the other day by-- I was working with a company. And the guy says, how do I identify-- what are the characteristics of someone that can

execute, and how do I identify those characteristics in a person so that I can get those people? And I said, well, first of all, the characteristics are the characteristics that everybody is-- obviously, someone that's driven, someone that communicates well, someone that's going to make things happen, those are pretty simple to know. We know what they are. How do you identify them? It's pretty simple as well. I give you a task. I give Andrew a task. It's pretty simple task. If you get it done, cool. Give you a little bit more complex task. Do you get

it done? Yes. I give the same task to Fred, he doesn't get it done. He comes back with a bunch of questions. He slow rolls it. He's got all kinds of excuses and problems. I give you an even more complex task, you come back, you get it done. And then I'm going to realize, OK, Andrew is the guy that makes things happen. He's a guy that can actually execute. A little bit what you said. I mean, there are certain breeds of dogs but even that is-- they're not as different as human beings are. And there

are-- so now there are some guys-- I've got Andrew who will make things happen. Here's the problem with Andrew. When I say, hey, Andrew, here's this nebulous idea that I have. Can you turn this into a reality? And you're like, where do I start? I'm not sure where you want me to go. Meanwhile, I gave it to the guy that didn't make anything happen with specific tasks that I gave him. And he comes back and says-- I said, hey, I got this nebulous idea. Can you see-- he goes, oh yeah. And all of a sudden,

he takes it. He says, hey, I figured out a way to make this happen. So you might have someone that's very good at executing, but they're not very creative. I might have somebody that's very creative, but they're not very good at executing. So what do I do? I build a team where I've got Andrew and Fred, and they work together. And Fred comes up with good ideas, and we bring them to Andrew, and Andrew goes and executes them. So that's what we're doing from a leadership perspective is we're letting people's nature execute. We're putting people

into roles where their nature is beneficial. I'm not going to take someone that's shy and introverted and put them out in a lead sales role. I'm not going to take somebody that's boisterous and extroverted and put them into a cubicle where they're going to be looking at spreadsheets all day. Clearly, I'm not going to do that. So what we have to do as leaders is we have to find the right people for the right role, and we place them into those roles. Now, does it mean that I abandon all hope that the guy that's an

introvert will ever develop more communication skills? No, I'm still going to work with him. And over time, we'll get him a little bit moving in the right direction. But I'm not going to take somebody that's a total introvert and turn them into a lead sales guy. That's not going to happen anymore than I'm going to change a tiger's stripes. So that's what we have to do is we have to help people-- as leaders, we have to help people find the role and find the thing that they're good at. Now, does that mean if I have

someone that loves their job, they're going to do better at it? Absolutely. Does it mean that if I have somebody that's driven just by achievement that they're going to be good at their job? No. In fact, well, they can be. There's going to be certain roles I can put them in. If I've got a sales number I need to hit and Andrew is super into achievement, he wants to be the golden child, he wants to have his picture on the magazine that we put out about our industry, cool. I can throw this task at you,

and you're going to go and get it. The problem is if there's something that's going to take more perseverance and the reward isn't that high, or it's a long-term goal, you're probably not the right guy for the job. So liking your job is absolutely critical. And if you love your job, you're going to be able to most likely excel at it. Now, you could be an unfortunate person that loves your job and is not good at it. That happens occasionally. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, but it seems-- JOCKO WILLINK: It's like-- sure reminds me of your-- ANDREW

HUBERMAN: But it seems pretty rare. JOCKO WILLINK: It reminds me of your skateboarding career. You loved skateboarding, but you just weren't that good at it. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I wasn't that good at it. JOCKO WILLINK: Unfortunately. ANDREW HUBERMAN: You what I loved more than skateboarding? I loved the community I was in. I loved the community I was in. And I probably would have gone to the industry side, or worked on a company side and not been on the actual skateboard side, or just skateboard for fun. So there's a guy in the skateboarding community. His name is

Jim Thiebaud. And he's the not-so-hidden secret in that community. He's an amazing guy. And he early on left professional skateboarding to run a company, Real, Deluxe, a bunch of other companies. He's an amazing guy. And he told me-- we've become friends recently-- and he said he realized he wasn't going to be one of the big guys, but he knew he wanted to be in this community, so he found his place. And I think everyone in skateboarding looks to Jim as like the guy. He truly cares about the sport and about the people. And so he

learned to just wrap his arms and his heart around the whole thing, and it just works. And so I do think everyone has a certain place in a community or in a team. I think that as you're describing this, I have to imagine that people are listening and thinking, wow, this team thing is awesome. It's just amazing. I wish I had that. I'm fortunate to have that in my podcast. I've had that in my lab. Certainly, in my podcast team, I always say, these guys go, I go. It's not just people that press buttons, and

run equipment, take photos. They go, I go. They go, it's over. And I'm fine with that. I actually love that because yes, it's about the podcast and about the information and getting it out there, but it's as much about the team and working together just like it was with skateboarding. So hopefully, I'm better at podcasting than I was at skateboarding. I kept getting broke off as the skateboarders say in skateboarding too often. But I want to ask in your family life, do you look at that as a team? Do you think this is my team,

and they're different and how can we synergize? JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, and you've got to look at every team like that. What are the strengths and weaknesses of the team? And who's going to be good at what? And how do you put people in positions where they're going to be able to excel? I mean, what's his name, Thiebaud? Is that-- ANDREW HUBERMAN: Jim Thiebaud. JOCKO WILLINK: Jim Thiebaud? ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. JOCKO WILLINK: Imagine if he had a mentor that was saying, listen, you got to be a pro skater. This is your only opportunity. There's nothing else.

And he didn't have the ability to take a step back and say, you know what, man, I'm not going to be good enough, but I really love this industry. So luckily for him he figured that out. And you talked about the superpower of being like loving your job. The one thing I claim to be a superpower is the ability to take a step back and detach, which I guess is going back to your meditation thing. But being able to take a step back and look at your life and say, man, I've been skateboarding longer than

that guy, and he's better than me. And I've been skateboarding longer than that other guy, and he's better than me. I'm probably not going to be-- this probably is not the right job for me. What could I do where I could use my skill set? And obviously, he had some entrepreneurial spirit and was able to figure that out. So being able to be a part of a team. And it goes to what I was saying earlier about the mob. Being able to be part of a team, part of the mob, part of the gang but

still have the ability to take a step back, detach from that, and assess what is the best way for this team to move forward. I mean, you could have this brilliant idea that from now on you're going to make all of your podcasts about the molecular structure of whatever. And the rest of the team probably need to pull you aside and say, hey, man, I know you really care about that, and that's awesome, but everyone really wants to hear about this other stuff. So let's tie it in together. Let's expand what the specific thing you

want to talk about. So being able to take a step back, detach, and see the bigger picture to me is the true superpower of life. And it's a lot harder than it sounds. And this goes back to when you start talking about people that are going through struggles in life. And I've described this before as if I'm looking at you, and you're in a bad state. You're depressed. You're sad. You're moping around. You're not getting anything done. And I'm looking at you from the outside, and I'm thinking for me, I see this storm cloud around

your head. I see the storm cloud around your head. And you're in there, and all you see no matter what direction you look is storm. All you see is darkness. I'm outside and I'm looking, oh, hey, man, this guy's got a great education. He's healthy. He's got a good team around him. He's got all these things going for him. But you in that state, you literally cannot see anything but the darkness of the storm. And that's what's so scary about when people enter that mode is you can look-- I can look at it from the

outside and be like, Andrew, you've just got to move like four feet forward, and you're going to be through this thing. And yet you might hear me say that, and you go, no, Jock. I'm looking ahead, there's nothing but darkness. So helping people move forward, take action, and be able to get that perspective, detach, and get outside themselves, get outside their own heads. Tim Ferriss said get out of your head. Get into your body. That's one way to do it. Take action. Go do things. But it's very scary. And I'm sure you've had this experience

where you're talking to someone that you know, and they're bogged down in whatever problem it is, whatever stress they're under. And you're looking at them going, hey, man, it's going to be OK. You can clearly see that whatever is bothering them and dragging them, now, you can clearly see. A lot of times it's a relationship. The girl or the guy they got dumped, and you go, hey, man, that person was a disaster anyways. You're better off without them. And they cannot compute that. They are stuck there. Or maybe it's the school that they didn't get

into, or the job that they didn't get. And they get so wrapped up in that. They can't get out of that storm. And it's such a helpless feeling to sit there and tell someone, hey you just move a little bit towards me, and you're going to get out of this storm. And it's so much easier said than done. And that's why trying to engage with people and trying to give people that super power of detachment where they can take a step back and say, you know what, you're right, man. That girl she wasn't who I

really thought she was. I should move on. Yes. But easier said than done. And that's one of the biggest challenges I think that we have as friends and parents and teammates is helping people learn to detach, learn to see the bigger picture, learn to see that the problem that you have that your whole world is actually not that big of a deal. I've written a bunch of kids' books. And one of the things that triggered me to write kids books is realizing that-- one day my daughter came home-- it's my oldest daughter-- and she came

home from school, and she says, I'm stupid. What do you mean you're stupid? I'm stupid. I'm dumb. Why do you think that? You know whatever grade it is when you're supposed to know your timetables? I don't know my timetables. I said, oh, well, how much have you studied? She gave me the confused look. What do you mean studied? I said, have you studied yet have you made flashcards to learn them? And she didn't. She hadn't. She thought she should just know them. From the teacher went over what they are, now she should know them like

some other kids in the class did. And so I'm sitting there going, oh, yeah, cool. We'll make some flashcards. And she made flashcards. She learned her timetables in 45 minutes, and we were good. But what struck me was to me, I was like, oh, no big deal. To her, it was her whole life. And then I got to see that with my other kids. Somebody said something to them in the recess yard. And I'm like, oh, screw that kid. They don't know what-- don't worry about them. But when you're-- that's their whole world and that

unfortunately doesn't only apply to kids. It applies to adults as well. And they get this problem in their world that seems so insurmountable and so massive because that little ecosystem that they're stuck in is their world. And they run into this problem, and it's disruptive in that world, and they don't know how to get out of it. I did a podcast talking about these ecosystems that people get into. And there's all these ecosystems. You're in an ecosystem. We're both in a shared ecosystem of podcasting and we could be like, oh, my gosh, Lex just came

out with a new podcast, and it's been the biggest success. And what can I do to catch up with Lex? And all of a sudden, I could get really bothered, you could get really bothered, we could be bothered by that. And think, man, I'm a failure. Meanwhile, there's people that don't listen to podcasts. There's people that don't even know what a podcast is. And yet it's our whole world if we let it be. You're in the academic world. Hey, you go-- you're a professor at Stanford, which is a big deal in that world. I know

people that don't give a rat's ass. They don't know where Stanford is. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I get that all the time. JOCKO WILLINK: They don't know where Stanford is. It's no big deal. In the SEAL Teams, same thing. Somebody has a problem in the SEAL Teams, and they think this is the whole world, and I blew it. And now what are they going to do? When you're facing a significant problem in life, a relationship, a problem with a job, you got to remember that you're in one ecosystem, and if you step outside of that ecosystem, no

one really cares. And you could go move into a whole totally different ecosystem and find happiness there. But at least utilize that to get out of that storm cloud that you're in, and you're going to find that there's plenty of light out there in the world. Move towards that and it's going to be a much better situation. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, in the spirit of authenticity, everything you're saying hits directly home for me. I don't know what people's perceptions of me are. I actually try not to spend too much time thinking about that and just really

try and stay in touch with the source. And I really do believe in this notion that our love of things is what can generate energy. And I try and use action to generate energy but also I happen to also love exercise. So that's an easy one there for me. But I try and stay in that mode. But to be quite honest, I've spent much of my adult life and probably too much of my teenage life and 20s-- you're not quite an adult in your 20s, at least I certainly wasn't-- in challenging relationships that admittedly were

challenging because of my role in them also, of course. And each and every time, I remember thinking, moving on from this is like this insurmountable thing. In part because I am a caretaker, and I cared. And it wasn't just about me and a selfishness, it was about wanting to right all the wrongs of that person's past. I found myself trying to be a time machine for people. I found myself trying to fix their family lives. I found myself doing all of that and also ignoring all the things I need to focus on in terms of

bettering myself and making sure I was showing up correct and on and on. And there are data in the world in the form of these people that know me very, very well that I think would say that and a whole lot more. The point isn't those specific relationships but each and every time someone would come along and say, listen, if this isn't good for you, it's not good for them, or this is a bad situation, or this isn't serving either of you well. But I was myopic, this big. And not even soda straw view of

the world like sand speck of the world and trying to solve because that's my nature. I'm going to solve this. I'm going to solve it. I'm going to solve it. And sometimes things were solved for some period of time and sometimes they weren't. And I think one thing that just as a confessional, I will say, I could really learn the art of detachment. I could really learn to focus on that more, if that's the proper language for it. I think I'm pretty good at adapting. I think I'm pretty good at finding good people. I'm certainly

love my team, and that all feels like natural synergy although it's hard work in lab and in the podcast. But I think the tendency that I have as a problem solver is to assume that every problem can be solved, and therefore, staying on this problem until it is solved is the answer. And maybe the art of detachment and getting some perspective would help because if I look back, I certainly don't regret the experiences that I've had. But I wasted far too much time. And frankly, I probably wasted far too much of other people's time trying

to solve problems that could not be solved. And I think without going into this in any more detail, and of course, you can send me a bill at the end by the way. I think-- JOCKO WILLINK: Confessions sessions are free, man ANDREW HUBERMAN: --yeah. So I think that being a problem solver is great, being forward center mass is great. I think learning the systems of the brain and body and understanding psychology and learning about oneself. The Oracle had it right, know thyself in ways that you can maneuver functionally in your life and career and relationship,

et cetera. Great. But I think there's also a downside to being overly fixated. It's like my bulldog, Costello, used to be like chewing on something, chewing on something. Next thing I know he's chewing on his foot. And you're like, hey. And you'd have to rip him off his own foot. He'd be like-- [PANTING] --because that chew reflex was just so strong that sometimes it would turn on himself. That's how it feels. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, I wrote a book called Leadership Strategy and Tactics. And one of the things that I wrote about in that book is

understanding what's important and what's not. And this is very similar to what you're talking about. Looking at a problem and taking a step back. And going, well, A, is this important or not? And B, is this solvable or is it not? And C, what's the ROI on getting it solved? And what's the effort it's going to take to get this problem solved? And how much is it really going to impact my world and my life if I focus on it? So knowing and understanding when something is important or not is a very good skill. And

again, it's a skill that's directly related to detachment. Because when you're in that relationship-- this is another thing I've been telling people lately-- the solution to your problem is not going to be found in the problem. It's not going to be found in there. You have to get out of the problem so that you can look at it, make an assessment. And you can assess how to solve the problem or whether you need to solve the problem or not. I mean, there's a lot of things in my life right now where I shrug my shoulders

and go, OK. But-- It's OK. Oh, someone's saying this, OK. Roger that. Carry on. No factor. Move on. And then occasionally, you go, OK, this is something I need to contend with. This is something I need to deal with this. This is something I need to shape or adjust or move or solve, to use your word. The reason I laugh when I say that is because problems you have to get in there. But if you take a step back, you can usually say, oh, a little adjustment here, a little adjustment there, and that thing is

going to sort itself out. So detachment is a superpower. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Certainly is and it certainly one that I need to focus on more. I'm grateful for you bringing that up. This is the biologist in me, but what is your process for engaging detachment or for disengaging? Is it an active process, where you go, I'm going to detach from this. I'm going to put myself in a situation that is pulling on me. There's this gravitational force, and I'm going to create some imagery in my mind of walking away from it. Do I physically walk away

from it? Do I outsource it to somebody else? What are some tools for detachment? JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, this is one of those situations where you and I had a discussion about the science and the practical application aligned. So my original experience with detachment was-- and this is one of those moments where I said a lot of times things are just small moments over time, and you make a little adjustment. This is one of those moments in my life. And I wrote about in Leadership Strategy and Tactics where I recognized like in a moment what detachment

was and how helpful it was. I'm on an oil rig doing a training mission. My whole platoon is in a skirmish line looking at a large area of the oil rig that we're supposed to be clearing. Again, this is not combat. This is in the 90s. There's nothing going on. We're just doing training. And I'm standing in the skirmish line. And by the way, I'm the youngest and most junior guy in my platoon. And I'm standing there looking down the sight of my weapon, and I'm waiting for someone to make a call and tell us

what to do. And I wait for 5 seconds, and I wait for 10 seconds, and I wait for 20 seconds, and no one's saying anything. And we're waiting for a leader in my platoon to make a call to tell us what to do, to tell me what to do. And finally after 30 seconds which seems like an eternity, I can't take it anymore. And so I take a step like a foot, a 1-foot step, 12 inches. I take a step off the skirmish line. I look to my left. I look to my right. And what

I see is every other guy in my platoon is staring down their weapon, staring down the sight of the weapon, which means their field of view is tiny. It's like a 20-degree field of view. You're looking down the scope of your weapon, or the sight of your weapon, and that's how big their field of view is. And I'm looking, and I'm thinking, oh, there's my platoon commander. He's looking down the scope-- the sight of his weapon. There's my platoon chief, he's looking down the sight of his weapon. There's my leading petty officer, he's looking down

the sight of his weapon. There's my assistant platoon commander, he's looking down-- so everyone in the platoon is looking down sight side of their weapon, which means they all have a very narrow field of vision. Well, when I take a step back and look to my left and look to my right, guess what kind of field of vision I got? I got a massive one. I can see the whole scene, and I can see exactly what it is we need to do. And at that moment-- look, as a new guy, you need to keep your

mouth shut. You don't say anything. And I'm thinking, well, but no one else is saying anything. So I muster up all the courage I can, and I open my mouth and I say, hold left, clear right, which is a basic tactical call. No, this is not a patent-level genius maneuver. It's just a normal call to make in a situation that we were in. I say, hold left, clear right. And I'm expecting to get slapped, told, shut up, new guy. But instead, everyone just repeats the call, hold left, clear right, hold left, clear right. And we

execute the maneuver, and we finish the clearance of this oil rig. And we get done, we get to the top of the oil rig, which means we cleared the whole thing. We're on the helo deck at the top, and we go into a debrief. And now I'm expecting, OK, now, I'm going to get told, hey, what were you doing? You need to keep your mouth shut. And instead, the platoon chief goes, hey, Jocko, good call on the cellar deck down there. And I was like, yeah, that's right. But then I thought to myself, hold on

a second. Why if I'm the youngest most junior guy in this platoon, why was I able to see what we needed to do and make that call? Why did that just happen? And then I realized it was because I took a step back. To use your term, I broadened my field of view, which allowed me to think more clearly because instead of being hyperfocused and narrowly focused, I broadened my range of vision. I took a breath before I made my call. I had take a nice breath to speak clearly. And I realized that taking a

step back and detaching, I got to see infinitely more than even the most experienced guys in my platoon. And I started doing it all the time. And I started doing it in land warfare. I started doing it in urban combat. I started doing it in all these tactical training scenarios. These are just training. This is the '90s. I started doing these training scenarios, and it always allowed me to see what we needed to do. And then I started doing it when I was having conversations with people. And having a conversation with my platoon chief, and

I can see that he's starting to turn a little red in the face. And we're about to argue about something. I said, oh, wait a second. I'm taking a step back look and go, he's getting mad right now, and he's the platoon chief. You better just de-escalate this thing real quick. And I'd say, hey, you know what, chief, that sounds good. Let me go relook at the plan or whatever. And so I started to do this with my normal life. It was to not get wrapped up in my own emotions. Not get wrapped up in

the gun fight that was happening right in front of my face. Not to get wrapped up in the details of what was going on, but instead, take a step back, detach, look around and then you can make a much, much better decision. And it's not-- it's exponential. If you're looking down the sights of your weapon, and you take a step back, and you look around, it's exponential how much more you can see. Now, listen, if you are the only person in a gunfight, it's going to be harder for you to do that because you've got

to be focused on whatever you're shooting at. But when you have 16 guys or 20 guys they're all looking in the same direction, it's very easy to be the guy that goes, I'm going take a step back, look around, make a call. So when you talk about the mechanics-- when I teach this to people now-- the mechanics of it, take a step back literally. You and I are at a meeting, there's a bunch of people this starts to get heated argument, I will literally push my chair back away from the table. Change my perspective. Widen

my field of view. The other thing in the SEAL Teams you don't want to sound panicked on the radio for a couple of reasons. Number one, because when you panic on the radio, it's going to cause other people to panic. Number two, if you panic on the radio, and you sound panicked, everyone's going to make fun of you. So when you get back from the mission everyone is going to go-- ANDREW HUBERMAN: Double whammy. JOCKO WILLINK: --yeah. You sounded like a baby out there. So what would I do before I would key up my radio,

take a breath. And so here I'm manually slowing down my breath. I'm broadening my field of view. So if you're in a meeting, or you're in a-- you're at the supermarket parking lot, and someone starts to yell at you, take a step back, take a breath, broaden your field of view. Detach from those emotions that you're having and make some space. And that's how I go through the mechanics of detachment. Now, I can tell you right now I mean, when you do this all the time, which I do this all the time. Yeah, I don't

really have to step back. But when you're starting to be able to try and do this, absolutely. Make-- And I'll tell you here's another like weird little nuance thing, lift your chin up, and put your hands down. Now, this is not in a combat situation, not in a fight. But here's the thing, when I get defensive what am I going to do? I'll raise my hands up and put my chin down. That's like a fighting mode. So if you and I are having a discussion, and I'm starting to get heated, and I'm starting to like,

oh, he's not listening to me. Instead of me putting my chin down and put my hands like up to where I can put them in your face a little bit, no, I'm actually going to take a step back and say, put my chin up. It changes my perspective a little bit more, changes my visual perspective just by changing the angle of my head. Take a step back, put my hands down. I'm not being in a defensible-- I actually want to hear what you have to say. And if I start listening to what you have to

say and not talking-- it's very hard to be detached when you're talking. It's another key component. You want to detach, shut your mouth. So I'm in meetings in a bunch of different companies. I'm running-- I have a bunch of-- I own a bunch of different companies. I'm in a meeting in my companies, I'm not the one that's doing all the talking. In fact, I'm doing mostly listening. When I'm in Task Unit Bruiser, my task unit, I'm not sitting there giving the entire brief. No, I'm letting the platoon chief and the platoon commanders give those briefs.

And that way, I'm detached. I'm listening to what they have to say. I'm more capable of seeing what holes there are in their plans by not moving my mouth, not talking, I'm listening. So those are some of the methodologies that I use and that I advise people to use in order to effectively start down the pathway of being able to detach in various scenarios. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love it. Again, I'm saying I love it because I do love it. And thank you. I think it's a wonderful technique. We've talked before on your podcast and some

of my listeners, maybe not all to this podcast will be familiar with the fact that when we narrowly focus our gaze on one target, a number of things happen. Our visual world becomes constricted, of course, but also that we start slicing time more finely. And the dopamine system tends to start doing anticipation and trying to guide and direct things in that narrow tunnel of view, whereas when we literally take on panoramic vision, so not necessarily moving our head around, although, one could, broadening our field of view or looking at a horizon, especially if we're walking.

But getting that kind of-- not kind of getting a broader field of view, we slice time differently. Things don't feel as imposing on us. This is the physiological substrate underlying what you're describing. And I think it goes a step further because in that open, larger aperture of visual understanding, there's an open larger window of cognitive understanding, and new options start to surface. I mean, I think this is-- I have long been fascinated by the fact that this actually became-- I'll tell this real quick story. In 2015, I went over to Spain to do some mountaineering

with Wim Hof. And this wasn't because I wanted a podcast. I didn't have any social media. I just went over there because I'd heard this guy, Wim, contacted him, and somehow arranged a trip for myself. And I went over there, and we did some crazy dangerous mountaineering that I had no business doing. Almost ripped my left leg off in a stunt that was organized by others there that I never should have done. In any case, one day I look and Wim is like crouched on the ground next to like a curb in this parking lot

before our hike. And he's down there on the ground with a little stick. And I was like, what are you doing? He's like, look. And there were ants climbing up this thing. And he's like, there mountaineering this curb. And I thought, this guy's different. But then I realized we were about to do the same thing up this big face. And I thought, wow, he's able to think at these different scales and see similarities. That's pretty cool. I would have never stopped to look there, and I still remember it. And was it profound? No. But was

it interesting? yeah, in the sense that things are happening at all scales all the time. And we think we know the scale to pay attention to, and we think that that's the one that matters most. And I think it's fair to say that in a gunfight, there is a scale that matters most but new options, new perspectives actually come from that broader field of view, which is what you're describing. And later that day-- it's interesting because this group going up, some of them were really challenged in the climb. And Wim went back to this example

of how the ants would stack on top of one another. And he used an analogy from that to help people through this climb. And there was a beautiful pool at the top, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, I think that these examples are in fact meaningful, especially the ones that you gave because they don't just relate to military. I mean, you can imagine around the dinner table. I've had this. Kids are there and partners there. And sometimes it's really nice to sit back and just hear it all and bask in it all. But oftentimes, new information

will surface. Like you said, all I'm hearing is worries out of this person. Or they're not even really here. They're all talking about what we're going to do next time, next time, next time. And you can reanchor people like, hey, look, maybe let's focus on what we're doing here. Or sometimes people are hyperfocused on what's happening there, and they need to think about something in the future. I love this. I need to practice detachment in a number of different domains in my life. One thing that I am realizing after hearing you describe the process that

I really need to do is I need to start taking some time away from my work. Maybe even a little bit of time parallel to relationship to get better perspective on it. Because I think the problem solving nature in us really makes us myopic, really makes us nearsighted. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah that's-- you see this a lot. I mean, I get to see this a lot. We do events with companies, businesses. And we go offsite somewhere where they're detached. They're just they're defacto detached from their day-to-day business. You pull someone out of their business for two

days and all of a sudden, they start seeing the solutions. They never see them like it's a lot harder for them to see them when they're in the firefight. You get them out of the firefight, it's hard for them to see it when they're in that acquisition that they're doing. How are we going to merge these two cultures? This is going to be impossible. Boom, pull them out. All right, let's talk about the two cultures. And let's talk about what possible outcomes are. And all of a sudden, when you get them to take a step

back, the solutions will appear. And it is true in a gunfight. Now, listen, if it's a one-on-one gunfight, even then the ability to take a step back and look around or use your peripheral vision, you have to be able to do this. It's going to increase. It's exponential how much it-- that's why it's like a superpower. It's like cheating. It's like cheating. I was speaking of Seth Stone. Seth Stone took over-- he became a task unit commander, troop commander when we got back from Ramadi. And so now he's the guy in charge, and now I

was running the training. And a couple of months into his training, he broke his neck. Broke his vertebrae in his neck. His spinal cord was OK, so he was the guy with the big neck brace on, and he couldn't do any arduous training. And his SEAL task unit, which is two platoons, was going through their land warfare training. And he couldn't do it. He couldn't carry a rucksack, couldn't carry a machine gun, so he couldn't do it. So I said, hey, I'm coming out. Let's go out, and you can observe your guys, and see how

they're doing. And so there we are. We're out in the desert. His troop is going through field training exercise, our full mission profile. So it's like a big fake operation, there's a fake target, there's fake bad guys. We're using these high speed laser guns to shoot. And we're standing on this little berm. And at a certain point in the operation, his whole task unit, like 40 guys, gets pinned down in this little ravine. And so we're standing in the ravine with these guys, and no one's making any decisions. And the enemy with these laser guns

are starting to maneuver and starting to-- they're killing guys because these laser guns you can die. And Seth he hits me on the arm. He said, can I tell him what to do? And I was like, no. Let them figure it out. So another 30 seconds pass, another guy gets killed with laser. He hits me again, bro, let me say something to them. And I was like, no, let them figure it out. Another minute goes by, two more guys are now dead. Just laser dead but they're dead. And he hits me again, and he's like,

bro, let me tell them. And I go, all right, go ahead and tell them. And so he just crouches down next to one of the guys, and bangs him on the shoulder, goes, peel right. And which is again, it's just a fundamental basic call. And the guy shouts it out, peel right. And they start peeling peeling right. And another minute later, they're all out of the kill zone and everything's OK. And then Seth looks at me, and he goes, man, this is so easy way up here. And I said, bro, look at where we are.

We are in the ravine with the guys. Now, we're on a knee and the guys are laying down, but it's not this-- we weren't on some elevated position. And I said, hey, it's not that we're in an elevated position. It's just that we're detached and looking around. And he goes, oh, my God. And I said, hey, you remember when you and I went through this training? And he goes, yeah. And I go, this is what it was like for me all the time. I was constantly just looking around, so that's why it seems like a

magic power, right? It's like a superpower because Seth's down there with his gun, and he's shooting. And I'm like, hey, bro, move your guys over to that-- go to that ridgeline right there, set security, boom. And how did Jocko see that? Jocko must be a tactical genius. No, I'm not a tactical genius. I'm just taking a step back and looking around. And like you just said, it applies to everything that we do. If you're having a conversation with your significant other, and you start to see that they're getting frustrated about something, now, look, if you're

in the conversation 100%, you're going to get frustrated too. You're going to get frustrated, they're frustrated. Next thing you know you've got an emotional argument going on, whereas if you take a mental step back and say, wait, why are they frustrated right now? Oh, because I'm trying to solve their problem when really what they're looking to do is vent. OK, got it. Let them vent. OK, cool. Oh, that sounds horrible. What do you think you're going to do? Instead of saying, well, if that's the problem, here's what you should do because people aren't always looking

for that. So yeah, this thing, this ability is-- and it's something that can absolutely be trained, and that's what's cool about it. It can absolutely be trained. It's not a natural gift. It's some people we're be better at it than others, but it's something that you can train. And I used to see guys develop it. And I see people develop it now in the business world where they'll report back to me, we had a meeting with the union today, and the union started escalating what they wanted to do. And I just took-- I detached, and

we ended up de-escalating, and now we got a solution. So this is an absolute skill set that can be learned, and that's what makes it especially nice. Because there's some people-- look, if you're very articulate, born very-- some people are born more articulate than other people. Some people are born with an ability to simplify things more than others. And you can train. You can become more articulate. You can become-- you can learn to simplify things more. And some people are going to be naturally good at detaching, but everyone can get better at it, and that's

a beautiful thing. ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's a beautiful thing, and I'm highly incentivized to do this. I mean, there are areas of my life that are going really well that I also want to apply it there. I think that I've tended to rely on people close to me as a way to access this detachment. I will be very direct in saying that I am not the leader of my podcast. There is a leader, it is not me. I'm part of the team, but it is not me. And I often rely on his input. And sometimes that

input is solicited and sometimes it's not. One place for instance where you see people getting really myopic is on social media. And I've experienced this. I'd love to say that I'm always nonreactive. And I think in general I take the stance that I have filters. So I have filters. I know why I'm there. I'm interested in being a teacher and a giver and informing people about the beauty and utility of biology. That's why I say, it's not a mission statement, it's a fact. That's what I care about. Anything that doesn't fit through that filter, I

don't really have any business doing. But occasionally, I like to make a joke or something. But occasionally something comes through. And I find myself saying, wait a second. And you get sucked into that tunnel. And sometimes it's observing other people in tunnels. And when you're not in the tunnel, it's so obvious what's happening. You're watching, in some cases, people just dragging their lives, and some cases, sinking their entire careers. I mean, the former chair of Psychiatry at Columbia University in New York made an absolutely foolish, truly insensitive, totally inappropriate tweet. That's my opinion. And I

think it was the opinion of all the people that fired him from his job. This person was at the apex of his career. Lost his job for saying something terrible. And in retrospect, was said something like, I don't know what I was thinking. And so this guy is a psychiatrist, so he lives in the study and the treatment of the mind, which just goes to show that everyone I think is susceptible to being pulled into these tunnels. And fortunately, everyone is susceptible to learning to teach themselves how to latch themselves out of it. So I

love this idea of a teachable skill. I'm certainly going to practice it in one on one and in group situations and in a variety of situations. I think that the tunnel has a gravitational pull. There's like an allure to that tunnel. And I always just go right back to the neurochemistry. I think that there's something about solving a problem inside of a tunnel like an animal on a chase. But at some point, that animal could get picked off, run over by a truck because it was-- didn't have enough situational awareness. I'm definitely going to practice

this through opening the gaze and broadening gaze. And I think I also I'm due for a couple of days off from things to just walk and think about work. On these retreats, do people work on work or are they just there to do other things, and that's where the ideas surface? JOCKO WILLINK: We'll do a little bit of both. So we'll do some stuff that is focused on work, but then we'll pull out and do things that are completely unrelated to work for that very reason. Whether we do something physical, whether we do some mental

exercise, but we do things that are completely unrelated to their work and take those breaks in order for them to free their mind. And you know what bothers you about social media? This is when you say there's some things that make you mad-- ANDREW HUBERMAN: I mean, not me, but it could be. Of course, I'm human. Little things prevent-- and it's not the things that are obvious. It's actually not direct critique of me. It's when people exploit misunderstandings to try and create a greater misunderstanding that doesn't exist. That's what gets me because to a scientist,

that's like the most irritating thing. I don't know what the analogy would be in the SEAL Teams, but it's someone hijacking something-- They didn't mean that but then they distort the argument. The word gaslighting gets thrown around a lot now. A lot of people actually think that anytime someone states a boundary. No, I don't believe that's gaslighting. Trust me, the psychiatrist, who are all professionally trained, tell me that is not gaslighting. Gaslighting is a very particular thing where you're trying to alter someone's reality in a very active almost like sociopathic way. So I that's a

little editorializing right there. What bothers me is when people hijack-- sometimes someone in an argument isn't as sophisticated with their language as somebody else. So someone will hijack that lack of sophistication and try and flip them on their back. That sort of thing really gets under my skin because I feel that creates an unnecessary divide. There are a few other things. But I always joke in my lab. And I'll say, I have 3,000 pet peeves, but I also have 3,000 flaws to match each one of those pet peeves. JOCKO WILLINK: So yeah, whenever-- This is

not just social media, but it's just life when somebody says something about me or to me that I don't like. What I realized years ago is the reason I don't like it is because there's some truth in what they're saying. And the best thing to do is to say either to yourself if you're by yourself or to them, is to say, yeah, you're right. I am a knucklehead sometimes. Or yeah, you're right. I sometimes do jump to conclusions. Or yeah, you're right. I was completely wrong about that. And that is just so much more liberating

and healthy than saying, you don't know what you're talking about. Or no, I don't-- just going into that defensive mode and trying to close your mind instead of opening your mind up to listen to what somebody else has to say, and say, yeah, that's a good point. You're spot on with that one. Next question, next comment, let's go. ANDREW HUBERMAN: One thing I appreciate about you on social media is the limited number of words in each of your responses. It's a great thing forcing you to be efficient and concise actually is a huge advantage. It

also forces you to be precise at least about category. I think there's something to be said for that. JOCKO WILLINK: Well, there's a good example. So I was on Twitter the other day since Twitter is getting a lot of traction right now. There's a lot of mayhem going on. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, the other gun fight. JOCKO WILLINK: And somebody asked me, somebody said, hey, I'm going to boot camp soon. What advice do you have for me? And I wrote back, enjoy. Boom. And like you said, I mean, it's Twitter. I'm responding to a bunch of

people. And then somebody else chimed in and said, you might as well not even answer, Jocko that's not helping this guy at all. And look at your face. For those of you that are watching, your face just got a little bit mad, right? You got a little bit defensive for me. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, well, I think, that's my nature. I don't like seeing other people attacked. I think that's just my nature. JOCKO WILLINK: I had a split second off who the hell is this guy? And then I said, you know what, he's right. And then

I tweeted again back. I said, sorry, man. You're right. What I should have said was, hey, read the book Leadership Strategy and Tactics. It's a good book for someone that is going to be in an environment that's going to be challenging and where you're going to be faced with leadership challenges. And enjoy boot camp because if your mindset is this sucks and this is terrible, it's going to be terrible, and it's going to suck. And if you go with a mindset of hey, this is a cool experience, and I should enjoy it, you're going to

have a much better time. That's my full answer. I'm sorry I didn't give you-- and it's perfectly fine. That guy was right to critique me. And he was right in saying that. And there was a bunch-- what's funny is a bunch of other people came to my defense and said, this guy-- that's really great. But my point is instead of me getting defensive and crazy and letting it drive me crazy, open my mind a little bit, listen to what they have to say, accept that there's got to be some level of truth in it. And

there was. I gave a guy a very, very terse response, and I could have expanded on it more. And I did. No big deal. Good times. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right. A few minutes ago, I was thinking to myself, I wonder where your mind is at in the few moments before you fall asleep. Are you able to make yourself go mind blank pretty easily? It's something I've been practicing more because I tend to, again ruminate-- I like to drill into problems, obviously. Yesterday I did a solo episode, which when we do those, they are usually anywhere from

five to 20 hours of prep. And then the recordings, I won't say how long they take. But I love going into the tunnel. The tunnel is that's where the juice is for me. And finding the structure. And I have the benefit of an amazing producer who helps me sort through it. And I came out of this thing, and then went home, couldn't eat. Because I was like, I don't want dinner. And then I was explaining a call I had with a colleague the other day. My partner-- my girlfriend she was just like, OK. I'm going

to sleep. And I was up and texting and thinking and writing notes out. And I thought, oh, man, I'm like Costello like chewing on the stick and chewing into my paw. I need sleep. I need to go to sleep. So I think I have a bit of a harder time disengaging, clearly. And this is why I never touch cocaine or amphetamine because I think that some of us have a love of the dopamine circuitry that-- I always sensed if I were to have tried drugs like that, they might have been the thing that would hit

my neural circuits just right. Some people talk about alcohol that way. I've read books by alcoholics like the book Dry and few other-- Rich Roll talks about this, that he drank alcohol for the first time in college. It was like this elixir that filled his body that made him feel right for the first time. That is not how I feel after a couple of drinks. I feel a little relaxed, but I can do without it. But this drilling into something is really that's my-- I guess, maybe that's my-- I don't think it's a superpower, but

I have some strength there. But I think it's also the thing that can cut on the other side. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, when you started off this conversation early you talked about getting up in the morning, and you just get up, and you have these-- I was about to go down the path of it's-- at nighttime when I'm trying to go to sleep and I have some random thought about some thing, that can be a hard-- I have a visual thing that's going on. It seems like I'm on a roller coaster, and I'm going in like

a new idea comes, and I'm just on this awesome ride, and it's not going to stop. And I can't-- I don't know how to stop that. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, no. I mean, I think it goes with people who are very driven and like to master different crafts. I have a colleague, his name is Karl Deisseroth. He's a bioengineer. He has five children, and he's a psychiatrist. He's like an incredible-- one of these people that does a ton. Very likely will win the Nobel Prize. I mean, he's an amazing scientists, amazing guy. And he does this

practice that he does, which is not a meditation, which he sits for an hour late at night after his kids have gone to sleep, and he forces himself, forces himself to think in complete sentences with punctuation about some problem. I tried doing that for about five minutes, and I fell off. But it's something that he's cultivated in himself, which helps him in his career. I don't think-- it's certainly not something I recommend. If I did that at 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning, I think that would be bad for my sleep. Because falling asleep actually

requires drifting into these kind of liminal states. It's one of the reasons why I'm a big proponent of things like nonsleep deep rest, or these yoga nidra practices, which are basically body scans where you're trying to learn to detach from the sensory world. And they're very effective at-- certainly for me they've been very effective at teaching me to turn off thinking, which is an interesting notion in its own right. But I like the idea of detachment by stepping back and getting perspective. My father is much better at that. He's a very calm guy in the

world of confrontation. I always knew it when I was a kid because he would blink, which meant like something was going to happen like I was going to get it. And now-- but I've always known that he can control his responses, his behavior. Others of us in the family you know beside from New Jersey, we're more like go to loggerheads. So I don't know. This raises a question, and I think it's one that I and several other people I talked to in anticipation of this podcast were asking. I think one reason why people are drawn

to people who have been in the SEAL Teams, and you in particular, are that I think everybody, not just males but females too. I think everybody wants to know like their calibration point on their level of toughness. I think people wonder. I think when people talk about BUD/S and all that, I think a lot of people wonder, would I make it through? I've certainly wondered it. I haven't spent hours on it. I went my path. I'm happy for the path I went. But I think people wonder, do I have this thing that supposedly BUD/S selects

for? And if I don't, how tough am I or not tough am I? I think that we all can look at other people physically-- and I'm not somebody that does a lot of this. I know some people are really obsessed by this like, oh, that person has an eight pack with veins on their leg. I don't understand that. That's not me, but I understand some people do that even to the point of pathology. But I think most people wonder, how resilient am I? And they can look to experiences that they've survived and say, oh, I

made it through, or I'm resilient or not. But is there a way that we can-- certainly that we can train it by doing hard things? Cold showers, this kind of thing are small examples of those. But do you think it's even an important question to ask? And if it is, how does one go about thinking, how resilient am I? Should we put ourselves into situations of discomfort just to test that? Because I will say, I think a lot of people look to SEAL Teams and team guys in particular as a calibration point of like, OK,

they know how to do hard things. They were selected for the ability to carry logs, and get into cold water over and over, and roll in the sand, and go without sleep for a week or so. But that's probably not what they were doing when they were on deployment. It's clearly a pressure test for something else. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, it's a strange, strange thing. The Basic Underwater Demolition SEAL training. And quite frankly, going and getting wet and cold and being miserable is actually nothing compared to being on deployment. And a good example that I use

to compare this to is, when I was on deployment in 2006 in Ramadi, there was-- as you were driving off base to go into the city and conduct operations, as you drove out of the compound, on your right was this area that was called the vehicle graveyard. And the vehicle graveyard was exactly what it sounds like. It was probably 75 or 100 vehicles that were blown up, destroyed, burned, in various twisted conditions that had been dragged back through the city and put into this vehicle graveyard. And as you drove by that vehicle graveyard, you know

without question that every one of those twisted vehicles represented one, two, three, four, five, American casualties horribly wounded, killed. And there you are in a vehicle about to roll out into that city where what you're looking at can easily be you in the next three minutes. And you're going to do that today. You're going to do that tomorrow. You can do that the next day and the day after that and the day after that. That compared to-- and by the way, this isn't just seals that are doing that. This is Marines, this is the army

guys that are over there. This is what everyone is doing. And they do it. They do it. I talk about Marc Lee who was one of my guys. First CO killed in Iraq. And he was the lead turret gunner in the lead Humvee. And in Vietnam, if you were the point man in Vietnam, if you're in infantry patrol, you're the point man in Vietnam, you were at risk-- booby traps, ambush. So they rotated you out. You didn't have to stay up there all the time. You do an hour up as point man, they get someone

else up there. And that guy, the lead turret gunner in a Humvee column of four, or five, or six vehicles, if you hit an IED, that's the vehicle that's going to hit it. If you go into an ambush, that's the guy that's going to get hits. The guy that's standing up in a 50 caliber turret, that's the guy that's going to die. And Marc-- he was a new guy, so he's in that lead turret, 50 Cal. And he never asked to get rotated out. And I remember he was a very-- I like to say very.

He was extremely charismatic, funny, gregarious comedian. And we got all kinds of stories about Marc. But one of them, we were in Vegas, and we're all gambling. And I come down from my hotel room, and I see Marc across the-- he's playing blackjack. When he sees me, he goes, hey, sir, when are the new Cadillacs coming out. Like he's just lighting up everybody, just having a fantastic time. But I remember one night he's getting ready to roll out. And if I wasn't going out with the platoons, I would go out see the guys off, give

them a hands salute as they're leaving. And I'm like, how are you feeling, Marc? How you doing, Marc? Are you good to go? And he's like, feeling lucky, sir. That was his attitude. And he's a guy that's going to drive by that vehicle graveyard, drive right out of that city, and he's going to do it the next day, and the day after that, and the day after that. So-- and like I said, that's what the army guys are doing. That's what the Marine Corps guys are doing. They're doing it. And so as much as the

mythology around basic SEAL training goes, to me that experience in combat and what guys do is infinitely harder and infinitely more important. Now, all that being said, basic SEAL training is a very strange laboratory for human beings. It is a very strange laboratory for human beings. And it's crazy the way it works. It's obviously extremely difficult, but there's no-- I wouldn't put money. You could put odds on somebody making it through like, hey, that guy seems like he's going be good to go. But I wouldn't put a bunch of money on it. And I wouldn't

take like 100%, I would never take 100% bet on anybody because there's no one that's 100% going to make it through that training. And there's just random-- some people say, well, it's because your why. There's people that make it through SEAL training because their ex-girlfriend said they couldn't make it. There's some other guy that makes it through because they promised God that they would make it. There's some other guy that made it through because their dad said they could never. There's lie every one of these examples you can come up with. And it's good enough

for some random dude to make it through. And it doesn't matter what your pedigree is. It doesn't matter where you're from. There's guys from Iowa. There's guys from Florida. There's guys from wherever that make it. And those guys from Iowa, and those guys from Florida, and those guys from wherever, that don't make it. Guys from farms. Guys from silver spoon in their mouth, and you just can't predict it. And I mean, it has to have something to do with the fact that how bad you actually want to do it. That's-- it's a strange thing. And

I wouldn't try and-- if I was in the world, if I didn't do that training, I wouldn't be trying to figure out if I could make it or not because you don't know. You don't know. It's a very strange thing. And it's so mythical almost right now. It's mythical that how hard it is. And this is not too many people make it through, man. It's-- ANDREW HUBERMAN: 15%. JOCKO WILLINK: --yeah. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, from all the folks that I've talked to there, or gone through, been instructors there, some we both know, it seem that that

15% number is unlikely to change as long as they keep the process the same. It just seems about 15% of people seem to have something in them that can perhaps grow during that training. But that it is being identified and selected for rather than somehow being built up across at least that phase, the early phases of training. And then at some point they build on that capacity. And this gets to this really somewhat controversial issue frankly, are people wired differently? And listen, I started off in neural development. And I'll tell you that there are some

universal properties of neural development in all surviving humans. Like that you're going to breathe without having to think about it. Your heart is going to beat without having to think about it. But beyond that, there's a lot of variation in natural levels of dopamine and serotonin. There's nature plays a powerful role and nurture. And what's interesting, though, is we can't always predict from parents what nature is going to do. Recently we had someone on the podcast. I'm excited for you to listen to it if perhaps you will if I send it to you. There's a

guy who talks about inheritable acquired traits. You don't expect that because you work out that your grandkids will be more muscular and have better endurance. But there's actually some evidence that that may be the case. And you go, well, how could that be? We got two kinds of cells in your body. It turns out you have what are called somatic cells, which are all of them. Then you have the germ cells, which are your sperm and your wife's eggs. Well, why wouldn't the DNA of the sperm cells and the egg cells be modifiable by experience

if all the other cells are? And it turns out there's some evidence that maybe it's not the DNA but the rNRA. Think about that. That means that whether-- and we know this that people that have been in a famine, several generations later, their implications for blood sugar regulation in their great grandkids. So the idea that experience and acquired traits can change us is actually has some validity. And this gets into really complicated things to people who go, oh, this is like the giraffe that had to crane its neck, and then gave birth to longer necked

giraffes. And it's like, well, not exactly but also not entirely untrue either. So I love the idea that there are inherited traits and that nature and nurture play a role, but that hard work may actually transmit across generations. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, there's in SEAL training you have kids that come through that they call legacies, which means that they have a dad-- I think a dad, brother, whatever. And they do have a better chance of making it, but it's not a guaranteed chance at all. And my personal opinion is I think a legacy kid would have

a better chance of making it just due to the Thanksgiving dinner that you're going to have to go through for the rest of your life with your family-- ANDREW HUBERMAN: If you don't. JOCKO WILLINK: --yeah, if you're even invited, which you might be on your own. But yeah, maybe there's something to that as well. But I think that's just more the pressure that someone must feel like, hey, there's no way I'm going to be allowed back in my home if I don't make it through this training. So I'm going to have to just go ahead

and suck it up. But not everyone makes it. And it's a bummer when that does occur. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, for people who are not thinking about going through SEAL training, or who miss the opportunity, or who are not interested in that for whatever reason, do you think there's value to doing things each day that suck a little bit? Or from time to time doing something that puts one into a state of deliberate discomfort? JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I mean, 100%. I mean, even in order to improve yourself, you've got to impose some discipline on

yourself. If you want to get stronger, you've got to do things that require strength. If you want to be tougher, you've got to do things that require you to be tougher. I think that's pretty straightforward. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Does that mean doing things that are not pleasurable? So for instance, I've done some long podcasts. And a few weeks ago, we were doing a series with Andy Galpin all about exercise and exercise science. And we did six podcasts in that week, the most I've ever done, which made doing four or five the next week not so bad.

But I loved every second of it. And I love every second of podcasting. And so it didn't suck, but it built up a greater capacity. I guess, I'm asking specifically about things that really feel like a splinter. Is there any value to that? Because I have to say there are some people I know, some of them are former team-- are team guys, I guess, you don't say former team guys. They are out of the Teams now, but they're team guys forever, who seem to not be rattled by little things. Those guys in particular, they don't

seem to be rattled by little things. And then I know people that they get the wrong size coffee at a coffee shop, and they dissolve into a puddle of tears. So there does seem to be something to this whole like mental resilience thing and flexibility thing. And I try and do something that's uncomfortable to me about once a week, something I really don't like. It doesn't matter what that is, but I try and do something that's unpleasant. Or do something in a way that's unpleasant. I guess, the example would be getting into the cold water

the first thing in the morning. And making that decision from under the blankets is a rough one for me. But then it gets easier. And then you wonder, is it still serving the purpose that it's building me up? So should people seek truly bad experiences provided that they're done in a safe way? JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah. Yeah. I think that you're going to, just like you, would develop your legs by doing squats. And you would develop your back by doing pull ups. I think you would develop your resiliency by doing repetitions of things that require you

to be tougher. ANDREW HUBERMAN: That actually suck. OK, good. And the reason I ask this is because I think a lot of people think, well, I work out every day. But then you probe them a little bit, and they're like, but I love exercise. And then well, then that doesn't quite qualify as something that makes you tougher. Or they think oh, the last reps of a set are really tough. But if you love hitting failure on a set because that's what I seek in the gym. I love that aspect of the training. That's actually where

I know I'm getting better. It no longer serves as resilience training, it more just serves as training. In any case, I think that the point is clear, and I appreciate your answer. I have to ask about something. This is going to seem like a total divergence but it's not, which is animals. Because first of all, they're a love of mine in terms of understanding the animal kingdom and placing humans into the animal kingdom. Second of all, I know you're a hunter. And also I know you own dogs. And the question I have is, do you

ever look at people, or did you ever work in Teams of guys when you were on active duty-- see that the difference is you mentioned before, this person is really good at problem solving, this person's a little bit more creative. Do you ever wonder whether or not people embody different animal archetypes? Because I do. JOCKO WILLINK: Well, that thing where people say that dogs or owners look like their dogs, dogs look like their owners, I think that's-- I've seen all kinds of examples. You can go on the internet and find a bunch of examples of

dogs that look like their owners and owners that look like their dogs. So I think that's true. And I think my dog is awesome. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Tell me about your dog. What kind of dog is it? JOCKO WILLINK: My dog is a German Shepherd. His name is Odin, and he's an awesome dog. And he's got a personality. He's got an interesting personality. So like he doesn't like to cuddle. My kids will be like oh, he doesn't like to cuddle. No. Even when we go to bed at night, he goes to 4 feet away from the

foot of my bed. Even if I was like, hey, jump up. I've told him, jump up in here. We want to pet you. He'll jump up in there, and he just like goes in that low crouch position. And then waits until I say, free dog, and then he goes back down, and he goes 4 feet away from the foot of the bed and sits there. Because that's his personality is to protect, and set security, and do his job. And that's what he's like. And so you've got other dogs that are-- they're in a totally different

mindset. So yeah, dogs have definite personalities. And look, I also have-- it's not all genetic. So two of my friends got dogs that were brothers. What are they called? Dogo Argentinos. You know those? ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, the Dogoes? Yeah, those are hard to get in the US. They're not-- They might not even be legal in the United States, so don't tell me who these people are. Not that I care, but I'm not going to report them. JOCKO WILLINK: I won't tell you who they are. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. JOCKO WILLINK: But these two guys-- and those

two guys had different personalities. One guy is a very happy-go-lucky, likes to smoke pot, likes to hang out, very just a chill, playful guy. The other guy is not. He's the opposite in every category. And they both got these dogs. And you fast forward like a year, the dog that was owned by the playful guy, his dog was just a big puppy licking at-- just wagging the tail. The other dog, you had to keep it in a cage or it would murder everything in sight. And these dogs were brothers from the same litter, and they

were completely opposite. And so I think it has a lot more to do with nurture than it does to do with nature. But that being said, when you look at Malinois I mean, Malinois have a personality that is very distinct compared to a German Shepherd. Now, look there's outlying Malinois, there's outlying German Shepherds, there's outlying you name whatever kind of Golden Retriever or whatever dog is known for being more playful. You get around the Malinois, Malinois are Malinois. And they're that way. Have you been around Malinois before? ANDREW HUBERMAN: Mm-hmm. Oh, uh-- JOCKO WILLINK: The

Belgian Malinois? ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, a few of them. My neighbor has one, and that thing is not terribly friendly. But it's a security dog, so I don't expect it to be. JOCKO WILLINK: Exactly. ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's yeah, I know they use them for work in the Teams. And I've heard that you have to keep a close eye on your relationship with them because if you get lax about it, they'll bite you. JOCKO WILLINK: That's for true. The first time I saw one we were doing a drill using dogs for the first time. And then one

of the Team guide dog handlers came out. And so we hit this target building, and they prebriefed us like, hey, you hit this target building, and this guy is going to be a runner, a squirter. And so we pull up in the Humvees, assault team jumps out, I'm staying external, I want to see what's going to happen. So the squirter goes running off. And the dog handler-- whatever-- tracks his dog on this guy, and then releases it, gives him whatever commands-- [GROWLS] --or whatever the commands are. That thing is totally primed. Unlike anything you've ever

seen in your life. It is just primed. It's tracking that guy. He hits that release on that leash, and that thing takes off at 1,000 miles an hour. It jumps like, I'm not kidding, 15 feet, maybe 10 feet in the air away and just chomps onto this dude. The dude goes down. It was freaking awesome. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, I've seen some videos of those Malinois. I guess, I didn't-- forgive me because before I didn't know what you were referring to Belgian Malinois. Those dogs like running up trees, jumping over little rivers. Yeah, it's crazy. Incredibly

powerful animals. Yeah. Well, the idea that they mimic their owners has me a little concerned because my last dog, I had to put him down. It was my bulldog Costello. He's a Bulldog Mastiff. I got him because I went to pick out a puppy, basically. And there were eight of these bulldogs. And all of them were running around, and then there's one in the background just eating out of all of their bowls. And I was like, I want that one. Big bulldog, biggest one in the litter. Laziest creature. Not just dog but laziest creature that

ever existed. But if you need to activate, he would. He was just very efficient with his energy. And I don't think I have a bulldog personality, and that's why I got him to balance me out. Never retrieved, never did anything. Stole and destroyed every toy, every dog park in San Diego. He was famous there. I had to bring $5 bills to pay people for all the balls and things he would destroy. So anyway, my apologies to all the dog owners. Not really. I miss him. Did you train your dog, or did someone else in the

house? JOCKO WILLINK: I did. ANDREW HUBERMAN: And was he trained to be a security dog, or family dog, or a mixture? JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, I mean, they're true working dogs. Unless you have the time and effort to put into him, or you buy them that way, you don't want one of those dogs that I was just describing in your house. They're not for a house unless there's that level. My dog is not that level. He's awesome. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Did you apply some of the same principles that you use in leadership of humans with your dog?

JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, there are a lot of similar principles, but there's some differences. They're pack animals, and they respond to the pack leader. it's funny. My dog obeys me as if it's the command of God. And my wife, he's like maybe I'll do what you say. So they pick up on that stuff. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Dogs are very intuitive. I love this idea that I was told early on that they can feel your emotions. I think they actually can sense how we feel not just by the intonation of our voice. But I hope someday someone will

figure out in a noninvasive way because I don't like the idea of people doing experiments on dogs in an invasive way. Like what they're picking up on? Like for instance, we know that sharks are paying attention to the amount of activity in the lateral line of fish. Fish have these stretches of neurons that they call the lateral line that allows them to school, and know the distance to different things, and be able to steer around coral. They feel proximity. It would be like if you're turning a corner, you go-- vrrt. --and they can even recognize

specific lateral line signatures. So it'd be like you and Marc Lee walking together through the dark. But maybe people sift around. But you're like, you don't have to look at them, that's Marc. You learn him intuitively. A fish can do that. Sharks can sense whether or not the lateral line is-- let's say vibrating but firing at a particular frequency to know oh, that fish is a little bit slower than the rest. I mean, hunting animals just they develop these incredible senses. And I think humans have some of these senses in more rudimentary way. We're just

not forced to use them unless, of course, you become a hunter of animals, or a hunter of humans, and you tap into these neural circuits that are very primitive and hardwired in everybody. But of course, they're honed in warriors. Well, I could spiral off into animal biology in ways that truly would take us 26 hours. I don't want to do that. I'm almost hesitant to ask this question, but I'm going to do it anyway. Many times online, you are asked whether or not you will run for office? And I want to say that I think

it's a true compliment. I don't think people are asking just to entertain themselves. I think that this country certainly and a lot of the world is desperate for certain kinds of leaders and people that have experience in high risk, high consequence, chaotic situations, and have shown prowess at leadership in multiple domains. And you are certainly one of those individuals. And so they ask for that reason among others. And I've heard you give your answer, and you can repeat it again here. But as a more broad theme that I think people are interested in, do you

think it's an important criteria or it would be great to see people in positions of leadership who've had wartime experience? And do you think that some of the shifts that we've seen in terms of patterns of leadership over the last-- let's just make it real broad so that this isn't related to any particular person or stretch of history-- but over the last, let's just say 25 years, reflect the fact that we haven't seen a lot of that, at least at the top tiers of leadership? JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah, I think it'd be excellent if people-- if

the president had military experience for sure. I think that then they understand the way the military works better. They understand that each-- the civilians that control the military. Because a lot of times people that are civilians don't understand that the civilians control the military. And I think that you do get to appreciate what war actually is and what the costs are. I think that I've seen in the same vein of people asking me to run for political office, I've heard, seen comments saying, oh, that's what we need, another war-- a warmonger in office. And I've

responded a few of those. I think if there's any group of people that don't want war, it's people that have seen it. People that understand what the sacrifices are. And I think that being in the military, people understand that better. So yeah, I think it'd be a great qualification. I don't think it's mandatory. I mean, clearly it's not. We've had a bunch of presidents that haven't ever served anything. Really, we've had a bunch of presidents that haven't ever served anything but themselves. So yeah, hopefully, we'll get some more people that have some experience in the

military, some combat experience would be especially nice. And that would be good in my opinion. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well I'm certainly not one to tell people what to do, and I'm certainly not going to tell you what to do. But should you ever choose to run, I would certainly be very enthusiastic about that. And I will just say that with that stated, I hope people do hear what you just said. I share that sentiment. People who have led others besides themselves, I think is the key statement there. JOCKO WILLINK: Yeah. And look, I just-- I have

friends that are politicians, and I really appreciate what they're doing. And it looks miserable to me. I don't like what-- good for them. I'm happy that they're in there trying to make a difference. And I guess, this is me being selfish of me saying, look, I don't think I could stomach that. And I also think that right now, I'm trying to help out. For instance, we have obviously got the leadership consulting in Echelon Front, we're trying to help businesses grow. I've got Origin USA, we're bringing manufacturing back to America. We've got 100, 400, 450 employees

right now that are here in America working and growing that business. Obviously, that supplements-- so everything that I'm doing here right now is to try and move the needle with America. Bringing manufacturing back, helping the economy as much as I can right now. So that's what I'm doing right now. And my standard answer, which you alluded to, is if things got bad enough, then I would do what I had to do. But I don't think people appreciate my level of bad. I'm talking real bad. So it's not there yet. And hopefully, it never will get

there. I'd rather surf and hang out with my friends and hang out with my family than do that. And hopefully, America can find some level of balance. I think that's the problem that we're having right now. And a lot of these things that you talked about, specifically the thing you talked about, social media is not very good for political balance. It's actually horrible for political balance, and a lot of it has to do with just the way that those conversations are had. A lot of it has to do with ego as well because I don't

ever want to admit that I'm wrong about anything. And if I can find something that I think you might be wrong about, it's so satisfying to my ego to just call you out on that thing and attack you. And I think that's what a lot of people are doing right now. Now, that being said, I also usually say this as well. I travel around the country all the time. I work with companies of all sizes, work with people in every different industry. And they're not sitting around arguing with each other about the political scenery. They're

talking about, hey, how can we grow our business? How can we take care of our workers? How can we take care of our clients? How can we take care of our customer? That's what people are focused on. And when you jump on social media, you can get sucked into the political scene very easily. And that being said, also we do have to pay attention because we as citizens have to make sure that America stays on the correct path within the guardrails of what this country is based on. So we do have to pay attention. But

I will be doing my part as a civilian until there's total mayhem and chaos in the streets. Then I'll probably just be a benevolent dictator that takes over. [LAUGHS] ANDREW HUBERMAN: Should be an interesting one, but, hey, you would be the man to lead under any conditions. But thank you for stating your threshold. Certainly, you've earned the right to make whatever decision is that you feel is right for you. And I want to say that I agree. I feel like we are a country that still includes a ton of generators and a ton of projectors

that are interested in projecting the good and growing the good. I do believe both those phenotypes are important. I also want to just say thank you for being a generator of so much useful knowledge. In science, we have a saying, which is somebody is an n of 1. This is a rare thing to hear about oneself or to hear about somebody because what it means is that somebody is in a category in which pretty much everything that they do and they say matters and serves a purpose, which is a useful and important building purpose. And

I will look at you and tell you that you are an n of 1. You certainly would meet that criteria under any conditions. And it's evident in the many companies that you're running and the leadership that you're doing. And also in your online presence. I mean, that's how I initially came to learn about you. I'm now fortunate to have two lengthy conversations with you and a few interspersed as well. And I think of myself as a reasonable perhaps good observer of how people behave in different domains. And every time you post, or every time you

speak, or every time you go on a podcast or host a podcast, it's clear that not only are you prepared and not only are you approaching it with a spirit of seriousness that it deserves but sometimes also lightness that it deserves. But there's always an element of give and that you're trying to encourage people to do better for themselves. So as somebody who's greatly benefited from the knowledge that you've put out there from the very first Tim Ferriss and Joe Rogan episodes to your own podcast, I want to extend a personal thanks. I also want

to extend great thanks for coming on here today, talking to a geek scientist who also happens to be a fellow punk rocker. Because that spirit and the heart that's behind it, I think some people think it's all about noise and chaos, it's actually about being really true to yourself. That's how I think about the punk rock spirit. It's really about being true to yourself and realizing that the thing that you like, while it might be quite different, is actually, if that's you, you have to live in that vein and stick with it. It certainly served

me well, and it sounds like it served you well. But mostly I just want to extend an enormous thank you. As a civilian, thank you for the work you did in the military but also teaching people about the military. I think a lot of people don't realize what it's about at any level. And learning about your experience there, and what you've observed, bringing other people's experiences from the military more broadly is super important. And sharing this and being able to entertain some of my scientific riffs. So thank you, thank you, thank you. JOCKO WILLINK: Well,

I appreciate it. it's weird you say all these nice things to me. I definitely don't deserve them. I'm a regular dude that just showed up, I guess, at the right time and told some stories about some guys that were true heroes, and just trying to share my perspective. But it's not just my perspective, I'm talking about stories that I lived. But there's plenty of people that have done way more than I've ever done and sacrificed infinitely more than I ever sacrificed. So I'm thankful for being here. I know that you put all kinds of information

and the same back at you. I have greatly benefited from the information that you put out. And so I thank you as well. And I appreciate coming on here and appreciate you spreading the word about how people can be better yourself. So thanks for having me. I appreciate it, man. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I appreciate you, and I appreciate this time, and let's do it again. JOCKO WILLINK: Check. JOCKO WILLINK: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Jocko Willink. I hope you learned as much as I did in terms of actionable knowledge to use in

our everyday lives. If you'd like to learn more about Jocko's work and the various things he's involved in, please check out the Jocko Podcast. Please also check out the various links in the show note captions to Jocko's excellent books on leadership both for adults and for kids. And check out some of the other links that relate to some of his other business ventures. If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple. And

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