Uncover the Secret to Super Gut With William Davis, MD

well the FDA says a lot of Dopey things uh for for instance for instance a very important protein for our health and youthfulness is collagen so where do you get collagen well the marbling in your beef and pork the skin on poultry and fish heart tongue brain stomach intestine organ Meats uh why is that well you get collagen you have smoother skin and the dermal layer ladies are very concerned about their epidermis the exteral but it's the dermal layer that the ma the primary determent of skin appearance and health so collagen adds to dermal collagen

collagen when you inest it uh adds to Joint cartilage because joint cartilage is 70% collagen you rebuild the walls of arteries especially aorta collagen reduces blood pressure improves arterial Health uh has spectacular effects but the FD says um we don't care it's not it's not essential hey there and welcome back to another episode of the reshape your health podcast and very much looking forward to today's interview because it's part two of a two-part series with Dr William Davis if you haven't listened to part one yet I highly suggest that you start there because we dive

into a little bit more cardiac related questions like uh cerol and blood testing and uh now we're going to move into gut health which I'm I I know that I'm going to learn a lot and I hope that you learn a lot from this interview as well so Dr Davis is a cardiologist and a number one New York Times best-selling author of the Wheat Belly series of books and more recently super gut recent human clinical trials that Dr Davis conducted have revealed that it is possible to lose fat weight while preserving muscle thereby preventing weight

regain and enjoying improved body composition he's also the chief medical officer at realiz therapeutic scorp which he co-founded to explore the new science of the microbiome to improve to improve health appearance and body composition and I think that gut health is an overlooked aspect of Health in general especially in Western medicine so I am really excited for today's conversation now let's just start with the basics for people who may not know if there is a difference can you explain if there is a difference between the gut and the microbiome because both of these terms are

thrown about quite a bit in this realm sure Morgan so the gut just refers to the anatomical pieces all the parts the dadum the stomach the gallbladder the gunum the ilium the colon all attachments uh the microbiome of course is are the microbes the bacteria fungi um a class of microbes called methanogens ARA so there's all kinds of creatures living in the GI tract that's the microbiome and as you as you pointed out we did not appreciate what an incredibly powerful thing you know you take a course of antibiotics and have diarrhea for a couple

of weeks we thought that that's interesting so what who cares and that was completely wrong just like AI is changing technology in tidal waves the microbiome is changing the way we think about health dramatically yeah all right so why is it so important for health because we've heard so many times but yeah good gut health is important for overall Health but can you explain why that is especially for diseases related to insulin resistance like diabetes like obesity like Alzheimer's well these microbes what the easiest way to explain this is to uh explain what it means

when you have infestation of the small intestine we thought the small intestine was not sterile but almost sterile it's not it's filled with microbes but the peculiar thing in Us in modern people not true in ancient people not true in hun gather is that because of our our exposure to antibiotics glyphosate preservatives in food emulsifying agents stomach acid blocking drugs non-sterol anti-inflammatory drugs birth control pills chlorinated drinking water all the things that modern people are exposed to killed off literally killed off Morgan hundreds of beneficial species and they were supressing feal microbes microbes that are

supposed to be in your colon where they're just perfectly happy living there well when you lose healthy microbes the fecal microbes Ascend incredibly up to 24 feet of your small intes three times the height of the room you're sitting in right now and they so trillions of microbes now these microbes don't live very long they live for a few hours not not years and when you have trillions of microbes living and dying very rapidly when they die they release some of their toxins variety of toxins one of them is called endotoxin endotoxin is able to

cross into the bloodstream because when because the small intestine is by Design very permeable that's where you absorb nutrients so fecal microbes breaking down living and dying release their toxins into the bloodstream that's called endotoxemia and when you have endotoxemia so there's about a 200 to 400% rise in the level of endotoxin when you have endotoxemia and what does that do as you point out it causes insulin resistance and that's the fundamental process underlying risk for coronary disease heart attack for breast cancer for type 2 diabetes for obesity for expansion of abdominal fat dementia cognitive

impairment anxiety depression rosacea psoriasis eczema fibromyalgia in other words this phenomenon of sibo small intestinal bacal overgrowth and the endotoxin that accompany it are going to to cause us to rethink almost everything we thought we knew in health so if your doctor gives you a biologic and prednisone and nepro for your joint pain for rhe arthritis a they did nothing to get at the root cause and you're never going to hope to have a full respond you're going to be exposed to these toxic drugs that only have partial benefit why not go to the source

of the problem so it sounds like our modern lifestyle which aspects are probably unavoidable because you mentioned like at at least 10 different things that can impair our good health that is going to happen so I think how do we deal with that in a modern culture where we have this drinking water we have food with chemicals we have medications you know what's kind of the first step to help restore a healthy gut microbiome well it's just like having crops in your farm right how do you do that well you prepare the soil right pick

out the rocks and sticks and all that sort of thing you plant seeds and then through the growing season you water and fertilize your your your garden or your your your uh your farm the microbiome the Gast has microbiome is very much the same we're going to clean up the soil but we do so by filtering drinking water trying to get organic produce whenever possible not taking drugs like stomach acid blood so there's a long list of things that you can do it's in my super gut book but it's all common sense things it's it's

really going back to the way your great grandmother lived that's all it is just cleaning up your life then we plant seeds these are microbes now the seeds take a variety of forms but the most important seeds of all are fermented foods sauerkraut kimchi cfers yogurts not the yogurt in the store the yogurt you make on your own uh veggies you ferment on your on your kitchen C it's very easy there's a few steps you should know about we have to filter our water can't have chlorine in it we don't use iy salt because iine

kills microbes also so and we let it ferment under your kitchen counter and it grows microbes the interesting thing about that Morgan is fermented foods have species of microbes that grow from the surface of that vegetable or you can use a starter culture you purchase that accelerates the process you you'll also know what microbes are there precisely anyway the microbes that ferment your Foods these are species like Lugano mesenteroides or pedus penthaus and a whole bunch of others these might microbes you ingest them but they don't usually take up resonance in your gas intes tract

they act like like your husband they act like a farmer and they cultivate other beneficial microbes a very very powerful effect so those are some of the more important seeds another real important class of seeds is restoring the microbes we've lost so what some very very important microbes one of my favorite is lacil rorai other words lails Gast you replace these microbes and among their effects is they colonize the small intestine unusual right most microbes live in the colon but these two microbes live in this small intestine where they take up resins in the 24

feet of dadum duun alium and then produce what are called bacteria sins natural antibiotics effective against fecal microbes so they clean up your infested small intestine and thereby reduce endotoxemia and so conditions like rosacea psoriasis fibromyalgia anxiety headache depression uh cognitive impairment start to recede uh food intolerances food intolerance are a big sign that you have 24 feet of small intestine filled with fecal microbes people say things I can't eat night shades and tomatoes and an eggplant or legumes or fruit with fructose I have to go on a low map all that is absolute nonsense

there's nothing wrong with those Foods there's something wrong with your Gast intestin microbiome it's caused you to become intolerant you know once again if your great grandma was here she would say what what are you you're silly that's stupid we eat food and you shouldn't be allergic or intolerant to these long lists of food even do testing and say oh we there's 38 Foods you can't eat because you react no this is all SEO and so so we identify the sio we take steps to correct it and by the way I have a method that

I've developed that makes it very easy we are going to validate in clinical trials but I asked this question so if we have this this problem sibo right because you have fibromialgia or iral syndrome or all sort of colitis or you're depressed or you're anxious or you got Ros long thousands of conditions long you have one you think I I think I have to say or you see fat floating in the toilet after a bowel movement that's fat Mal malabsorption from FAL microbes in your duodenum where the pancreatic enzymes and bile are emptied so you

think you have SEO well sadly if you go most doctors you say I think I have SEO what should I do about it doctor says oh Morgan did you consult Dr Google again or there's nothing wrong with in your head yeah yeah the occasional well-informed gastroenterologist might say well here's a prescription for Z faxin an antibiotic now you know antibiotics got us here Morgan are they really the solution and so I don't think that's the best idea and its efficacy is about 50 55 60% it's not that that effective and it allows freaking recurrences and

so you don't get a lot of wisdom from the gastroenterologists so I ask this question all right 150 million Americans 150 million America one in two people have this problem there's a reason why I say that if you took that antibiotic okay maybe you get a response cost a lot of money you have side effects Etc what if you took a commercial probiotic right off the shelf will it go away will your seow go no it might reduce the bloting it might make you a little sicker too sometimes so I asked this question what if

we chose microbes that we know colonize the small intestine that's where the battle occurs right in sibo and species and strains known to produce those bacteria since I mentioned natural antibiotics effective against feal microbes so what I've done is we've we've fermented three so microbes don't have sex right there's no male and female microbes they just reproduce themselves asexual reproduction one becomes two two becomes four well I ferment three three species lails Rite strain of lacil Rite strain of lacil Gite those two colonize the small intestin produce bacteria and basilis coagulants which is a sporeformer

but it germinates in the small intestine and it produces its own bacteria we co-ferment them as yogurts not yogurts so people say can I buy it in the store no you can't buy it in the store something it looks and smells like yogurt it's not yogurt we we make this we allow it to ferment for 36 hours rotaride doubles every three hours at human body temperature so if we did like a factory we let it go for six hours you won't get much we're going to do 36 hours and you get rich thick yogurt at

the end add some blueberries and have a half cup chia seeds whatever and you're getting around 300 billion 300 billion toal so big big big counts we did flow cytometry numerous times on these fermentation projects and we get about 300 billion microbes using this unusual method you can I call it sibo yogurt you can consume a half a cup uh for about four weeks and so far 90% of people have gotten rid of their SEO so this is far I did this to help people feel less bloated and those kinds of things Morgan I did

not expect almost complete eradication of seone now we will do formal clinical trial because and I'm not sure we can use yogurt probably use encapsulate as a probiotic but we know people normalize it because of this consumer device um so this is yeah talk so this is the air device this is the old version the new version is is this one so the old one air a i e made by the food marble company this old device measures hydrogen gas hydrogen gas is produced by bacteria but not by us not by humans this one measures

hydrogen gas and methane for methane producing species there's going to be another one the inventor tells me Dr Angus short in Dublin Island the the third version what measure hydrogen gas methane and hydrogen sulfide gas and what what he's doing is expanding the number of microbes we can identify what this what these things are Morgan easiest way to think about it is they're mapping devices they tell you where in the GI tract M microbes are living so let's say I ingest something that microbes like to metabolize like inulin powder two two teaspoons of my coffee

so before I do that I check a baseline level right it talks to your smartphone 0 to 10 for hydrogen and for methane and then you ingest that indulin microbes consume it now if that occurs within 90 minutes if there's a big uptick let's say from 0 to 10 let's say you start at 1.2 and jumps to 9.8 and it did that 30 minutes after you ingest the inul that happens so fast it's not enough time to get to the colon where that's normal so if it happens at 30 minutes or 45 minutes anything before

90 minutes you know you have microbes in the upper GI tract SEO small intestinal bacterial overgrowth and so makes it very easy you don't need to buy this it is Handy you can share with the rest of your family not with your friends cuz it's like shared a toothbrush but you can share with the rest of your family you can use it over and over and over again it's around $150 to $200 depending on which one you buy but you can use it over and over again you can do the test also on a lab

or clinic but it's more like $400 it's about four hours of your time every time you do it here it's quick done so it's worth the investment but you don't need to do that because you know if I if I said Mor the solution for sibo and disruption of her Gast mic is to remove your small intestine you would say well damn it you better be damn confident that's true but what if the solution looks and smells like yogurt and you make it in your kitchen and has virtually no ill effect and only benefits what

kind of benefits by the way besides reduction of bloating elimination of food intolerances reduction to symptoms of fibromyalgia rheumato is reduction in but in weight shrinking waist circumference reduction of blood pressure what else could it do uh well ladies go berserk because they get smoother skin and they lose their crows feet and their smile lines first over a longer period nasal labal fold and forehead wrinkles you get an increase in SE production so skin is moiser you get a a return of youthful muscle because we lose muscle as we age there's an increase in the

hormone oxytocin the hormone of love and empathy so there's an increase in the affection Love and Affection you have for the people close to you you're more tolerant of other people you'll like your co-workers better you're more generous you accept other people's opinions more readily your libido goes up older guys will have a 50% rise in testosterone older ladies often get vaginal atrophy and dryness especially in their late 60s it comes back uh bone density is preserved your immune response is Amplified your healing time is cut by about 30% in other words we're not talking

about a nasty antibiotic to kill off those FAL we're GNA restore things you lacked and do it for you while providing all kinds of now I I kind of regret calling it sibo yogurt morg because it makes it seem like that's the only usefulness what we're really doing is restoring lost foundational or Keystone microbes are very very important for rebuilding your microbiome so while we do it for four weeks or longer if you want to get rid of your SEO and then we continue it intermittently two or three times a week to prevent recurrence and

so that you continue to get all those benefits outside the GI track and that has worked to my great surprise far better than I ever expected well I think that have a couple follow-up questions here so is this um daily yogurt intake the special yogurt where do specialy for four weeks like half a cup a day for four weeks was that kind of the initial protocol to help alleviate the food intolerances in like 90% of people one one confusing twist so Rai causes hydrogen gas positivity on this device so one confusing thing is let's say

you eat the yogurt for four weeks maybe your fat Mal absorption is gone and you were previously toer of tomatoes now you can eat them but you want to know for a fact so you stop the CBO you can continue the gasai and the basilis coagulant parts of it we got to stop the Rai for two weeks because it's going to make it positive so you stop it then test after a two we delay very confusing sorry but these Technologies are evolving and we're getting better understanding as we as we use and put this to

work and is this protocol in your book like if people really like have I mean if I had a food intolerance I'd do whatever I could to treat it now I had a question too so my mom got me a yoga maker for Christmas I still haven't used it and but I I've heard really good things I have an uncle and an aunt who made their own yogurt and she said so terrific so how would I make this sibo yogurt at home with my yogurt maker that the Hassel Morgan is is um sourcing the microbes

so we're not gonna we're not making yop play We're Not Making Danon right th those those are something entirely different different microbes different methods and so I I kind of regret calling yogurt it's really just a fermented dairy product we're going to source so the sources are listed in my super gut book they're also in my website the Dr Davis infinite health.com we get the because you have to pay attention some attention when you play with microbes to strain not just species but also strain so the clearest illustration of this is so you know this

uh you and your family my family we all have ecoli but if calure got on your lettuce right you can buy of that Eola same species EOL like different strain so we we do have to pay attention usually not always to strain so we're going to use a strain of lacil roor and I'm sorry about these strain designations but it's all in the super good book atcc PTA 6475 and we use a strain of La basil Gast the BNR 17 strain and we get a strain of the basilis quagan gbi 3686 I'm sorry I don't

make this stuff up it's all in the book it's all in the book and it tells you because there are other strains say of rorine we don't know if they do the same thing are strains of gide that's a generalization I think most gas actually do have these properties but if you want to be confident you use the strains that have been studied for these effects so it's it's all in there you have to Source from different place but the good thing is once you make the yogurts you can make subsequent badges from a little

of the prior badge right kind of like sourdough the farm you can you can grow batches yeah so you make the first batch of yogurt you have to find the right strains and then is it like a powder that you add and then what else do you put in if it's a powder I'm not sure it typically comes as a powder the original bio the original roriz strain came as tablets and we had to crush them the reason why I I made yogurt out it in the first place way back when was because the first

microw I started playing around with was lactobacilus roriz because of some very interesting science but there was human science in babies and so the company that makes this biogaia in Sweden made tablets at a dose appropriate for infants well you'd have to buy like 10 boxes and take 10 boxes a day be ridiculous be expensive be silly so I took those tablets and I ferment them with this extended fermentation to increase counts you we're increasing counts about a thousandfold um uh but once you once you Source the the right microbes you don't have to do

it again so it is a hassle it's a little bit of an expense maybe getting all three some not even $100 it's not that bad and then as you as you point out you need a device to keep at a around human body temperature it could be a yogurt maker could be a instant pot could be a soused um one thing you want to do is you want to put a thermometer in it run it with some water in it and then run it for a couple hours make sure the temperature is okay lot of

devices are not set properly and they're too hot and these microbes at least the gas around the root tend to die about 110 degrees Fahrenheit so if you got if you have an instant pot for instance that Cycles to 120 uh is going to kill your microbes okay interesting okay so the powder but what's the other liquid then in this yogurt or the fermented dairy this is the way I do it but you don't have to do it this way many other ways to do it but I so you you put the microbes in a

a glass bow say and then I add uh I had a Prebiotic fiber like inulin it's like adding calure to your to your to your farm you get more vegetables so I'm going to add a tablespoon or two of inulin typically and then I add a little bit I use organic half and half some people use coconut milk some people use other kinds of milks but organic half and half because one of the things that we do is we reject this idea of cutting fat it's nonsense fat is the healthiest part of dairy so never

skim not like garbage so a little bit of half half a couple tablespoons make a slurry because that preotic fiber clumps so we make a slurry and then stir it and then to top it up with the rest of the court of organic half and half cover and then keep it at around human body temperature 98 to 100 degrees fight for 36 hours don't touch it don't Stir It Don't Be You you tend to look at it don't do that and just when you're done 36 hours put in the refrigerator it becomes rich and thick

and now you have a source of billions and billions of microbes yes but those microbes would be ruined if we heated them up so like if you're going to put Greek yogurt in a baked dish and then you heat it up that's the the benefits are gone uh many of the benefits are gone not all of the benefits there there is some of the some of the benefits are mediated by compounds in the bacteria that don't don't get killed with heat like with Rai you can kill it and you still get the oxytocin effect but

you don't you lose the upper G the small intestinal colonizing bacteria and producing benefits so okay and then I had another question too so I I said how often to eat it so there's that four-week protocol to kind of be a little bit more diligent about daily consumption you said about a half a cup but obviously we're still going to be doing doing some things from our lifestyle that promote sio and so you said there there has to be some sort of maintenance plan here for our microbiome so is two to three times a week

appropriate like if I wanted to throw some in a smoothie or in some chia pudding is that appropriate sure yeah you can make ranch dressing from it you can make Co SLA with it uh if someone makes it by the way with canned Co not not carton but canned coconut milk you got to be sure there's no additives like jelen gum or zanthin gum and there's a couple of additional steps because coconut milk likes to separate into solids and fat so we add guar gum a preotic fiber and there's all there there's a couple other

steps a blending step that's all in the super gut book uh and you can make Delicious coconut milk yogurt and we did do Flo citometry on the coconut milk my great surprise it was as good as the number of microbes you get in Dairy which is about 300 billion per half cup serving that is interesting yeah I do this really good chocolate mousse with coconut milk with the solids and then I do uh some cocoa powder and some Stevia and so I'm guessing I could just throw this stuff in there too I kind of like

the idea of it because it's a kind of a katchal like you can use it in a lot of different food products to get those really beneficial bacteria back into your system so I had some other you know just just be careful not to use a blender mechanical blender or mixer tell me why it kills the microbes how is that just mechanical agitation okay so if I'm going to make a smoothie can I gently stir it in after the Smoothie you use a spoon or a spat that is a good por I would have Blended

the heck out of those than you all right so can you give us you know you mentioned inulin which is a type of fiber and I think it's really important to talk about fiber because we hear a lot that fiber feeds the good bacteria in your gut is that appropriate reasonable to say absolutely okay why then is fiber not an essential nutrient if it's so important for our gut hoal well the FDA says a lot of Dopey things uh for for instance for instance a very important protein for our health and youthfulness is collagen so

where do you get collagen well the marbling in your beef and pork the skin on poultry and fish heart tongue brain stomach intestine organ Meats uh why is that well you get collagen you have smoother skin and the dermal layer ladies are very concerned about their epidermis the exter but it's the dermal layer that's the Maj the primary determine of skin appearance and health so collagen adds to dermal collagen collagen when you ingest it uh adds to Joint cartilage because joint cartilage is 70% collagen you rebuild the walls of arteries especially aorta collagen reduces blood

pressure improves arterial Health uh has spectacular effects but the FD says um we don't care it's not it's not essential so you can't say there's oh we have collagen deficiency because they don't recognize as a deficiency how about hyaluronic acid ladies know about it right they Pride it as a serum like that right get rid of crow's feet well I ask ladies if you put it on over here what happens to your next skin or your thigh or abdomen nothing so the real magic of hyaluronic a is taken orally where do you get hyaluronic acid

eating brain tongue skin and other organs what does it do well it adds to dermal moisture because wonderful for water attention it further stimulates collagen deposition in the dermal layer it adds to the sovial fluid joint lubricating fluid that you know all about your field uh for better joint joint health it's also a fiber Morgan it's a it's a it's one of the very few animal sourced fibers yeah not here an oven so most fibers come from plants of course but this one comes from animals when you eat skin so I see it with having

boneless skinless chicken breast so so what happens when you get hydronic acid besides skin and and a joint acts as a fiber and it specifically blooms species like acrania and falb bacterium and lacos sparacia those are extremely important beneficial microbes because they produce butyrate or butc acid and butyric acid is the mediator of deeper sleep better mood reduce blood pressure reduce insulin resistance reduce blood sugar uh all kinds of benefits and by the way because I know ladies are so interesting skin it goes to the skin or acidifies your skin so healthy skin is acidic

4.5 pH unhealthy skin sumon with rosaceous psoriasis acne their pH is about 5.5 well remember that the pH scale logarithmic so the difference between 4.5 and 5.5 is tfold so healthy skin is 10 tfold more acidic how do you acidify the skin Pate tic acid produced by microbes that you fed fibers to could be hyaluronic acid could be inulin but those microbes convert to Bic acid that acidifies your skin and that discourages staff of cacus orius the common pathogen in skin that proliferates when you have rashes and it encourages the healthy microb staff of cacus

epidermus so for the ladies one of the most important things you can do for skin health is uh to feed fiber like hyaluronic acid orally orally as well as those fermented foods because the fermented foods also cause bloom in those beneficial species that produce Pate so is fiber not an essential nutrient because the FDA doesn't understand that personally personally I don't pay too much attention to what the FDA says because you know they one they're spread too thin two they're too busy in the world of Pharma they're tangled up dealing with drugs I understand however

they still have major influence because there's there's the carnivore diet there's the keto diet and keto can be done you can do like a high-fiber keto diet but like let's take the carnivore craze right now like that doesn't really include any fiber so what are the risks for gut health if you're following um a a carnivore diet or heck I mean you can do a standard American diet that can still be very low in fiber let's just call it a low fiber diet what are the risks of that so when you deprive microbes in the

GI tract of of the fibers they need you'll see a massive die off of beneficial species like FAL bacterium like lacos spaia like Lac basilis bu decline sometimes gone disappeared and then there's a handful of microbes that have a peculiar capacity the the most prominent one is acromania mucin mucus lover so you deprive acromania a very beneficial microb when it co occupies 3 to 5% of all the microbes in your GI tra you deprive it of fiber has the added capacity consume human mucus it starts to consume you that's why you get colitis get intestinal

inflammation you get increased entry of that endotoxin endotoxemia which leads to so people say I went canus I lost 27 pounds my Weist shrunk by six inches my triglycerides Dro my blood sugar Dro and then a year year and a half in I'm regaining weight my triglyceride's gone back up uh my blood pressure is going back up my blood sug is going back up what they've done is they've disrupted their gastrointest microbiome and one of the effects is the excessive proliferation of acromania so that it becomes not three or 5% more like 18 24 36%

of the entire microbiome it's probably part of the reason why uh people get constipated later in like a year year and a half into those kinds of programs why they get kidney stones there's a marked upt in calcium oate kidney stones children by the way stop growing um there's occasional sudden cardiac death in other words when you start when you defy nature and the genetic code that for your diet so I tell people imagine you saw a lion Gore a wilderbeast open its abdomen eat its intestines and heart and and you say that's disgusting so

you Cage The Lion you feed it broccoli and kale what happens to the lion dead within a few weeks in other words all creatures have a specific style of eating lions eat different than frogs they eat different than hamsters and we have a specific eating sty there's variation of course whether you're tropical or mountains whatever but there are specific requirements and if you don't meet those requirements weird stuff happens in this case when you deprive your GI microbiome of fibers weird stuff happens and there's a big price to pay so the carnivorous diet and nonfiber

ketogenic diets as well as Adkins introduce huge distortions into the gastrointestinal microbiome uh it's not clear if it leads to SEO that's no one's done that yet but I I suspect it does but we don't have good proof yeah and I just want to highlight too like you can just eat a standard American diet that's low in fiber and have detrimental gut health effects from that too um as you know with your other book it's it's like okay we're loading with sugar and Grains and all this stuff that's not for good health so I just

had to throw that out there not just hating on the super low car but I think that that's a really important point to just give pause to people like before you go on some very restrictive diet just ask yourself like is this really taking my whole body my whole body Health into approach because we focus on like so much on insulin and inflammation insulin and inflammation and sure like low carb approaches are great for that can live a low carb high fiber diet and and reap those great gut health benefits so our program really does

advocate high fiber as well for for the gut health and just the TIY and um Digestive Health all the good things all right so moving on because we have a lot of stuff that I wanted to cover today some people listening would probably say all right so they're telling me to eat a bunch of fibrous Foods um but they don't want me to eat grains and what about oxalates that are in these fruits and vegetables because that's kind of a hot topic now too so what's your opinion on like the best sources of food fiber

and your opinion on the oxalates within the foods that have the fiber so most people think of cellulose or brand fiber when we say fiber and they think of things like brand cereal or whole grain breads we're not talking about that's not the fiber we're talking about we're talking about fibers that are metabolized by microbes now if you were a goat or a horse you could metabolize cellulose because you have the microorgan microorganisms in your four compartment stomach but we don't have those things so we can get cellulose say as brand and food but we

P it passes right through us it's bulk right there's no intrinsic benefit Beyond BK so which is so important I'm sorry I have to pause there because so many grain-based products Market themselves as being whole grain high fiber food and you're saying that that really just passes through us and offers no real health benefits yeah there are some Prebiotic fibers in grains like a Rabino Island uh but when we banish wheat and Grains we do need to get those fibers we get them from root vegetables like leaks and uh other foods like dandelion greens hikima

legumes black beans white beans kidney beans uh chip peeas hummus asparagus beets carrots these are all wonderful source of these fibers that and variety is key of course Morgan that is you don't want to just I've seen people do this I'm just going to for convenience buy inulin powder and that's the only thing I'm gonna do no don't do that key key is variety and the benefits are not it's not just bow regularity it's loss of abdominal fat reduction in blood sugar reduction in blood pressure better sleep vivid dreams I mean huge benefits of doing

this but not the cellulose fiber now the so oh sorry go ahead benefits seem to Plateau at around 20 grams intake per day uh so if you have for instance a uh an easy source for a lot of people is a raw white potato uh organic of course chop it finely and Cube it and put it in your salad for instance some people actually eat it like an apple and that's somewhere around 10 gram of preotic fiber a couple of teaspoons of inul in your coffee very convenient you can buy these fibers also you can

bu buy inulin fructooligosaccharides or galactooligosaccharides um glucomin xyoos you can buy them also but you're always better off whenever possible getting them from Whole Foods yeah what about the foods that are high in oxalates like high spinach but or not high spinach but like high fiber High oxalate foods do you have an opinion on that or have you seen anything like that in your practice affecting people so it's it's kind of like the food intolerances it's also like hyperemia high uric acid and gout so high oxil so the solution is going to be microbial so

but but unfortunately with Ox with with uric acid we now have five microbes that reduce uric acid dramatically it's going to get rid of uric acid drugs like alopurinol and others with oxalate the science still evolving so there's one species for called oxalobacter formigenes that we thought was the oxalate consuming microbe it's probably it's only a modest effect though so what's what's going on in the Science World is the fear so microbes work as communities and that's probably why if if you get lactamil rori our favorite microbe from your mom at Birth as through the

birth canal breastfeeding Etc you'll have that for a lifetime unless you're exposed to antibiotics and glyphosate Etc but if you get it as a yogurt or probiotic you'll have it for a few days why probably because we didn't Supply the entire community of collaborative microbes so right now no one knows what that Community looks like probably in a few years we'll say okay we what we're gonna do is going to restore ruite with these five other species and do it for maybe I don't know a week or whatever and they take up permanent residence but

so far one's figured that out the same thing with the oxalates we haven't yet figured out the community but I'm I think we're getting close to say something like this get these three four five microbes that consume oxalates in your GI tract and eat all the oxalates you want yeah so it seems like it's maybe more of a food sensitivity issue similar to like the night shades low fod map diet that kind of thing okay I think if anybody's listening My Hope Is that you're going to get the book and go through the protocol if

you have food sensitivities which so many people do and I don't know how much you know about food sensitivity testing that might be an interesting topic to go into too but a lot of them kind of provide false information about people thinking that they have a sensitivity to eggs and maybe they don't really but try this yogurt the sibo yogurt protocol heal the gut restore the gut microbiome and then try to reintroduce the foods so let's tou on that real quick on food sensitivity testing like how do you know if the test that you're getting

is even accurate you're right there's been very poor validation a lot of the testing platform so we don't really know how valid they are and you know if I once again we should call up your great-grandmother and say great grandma did you have food and tolerances in your world she said what are you talking about no of course not how how do you think we lived we just ate food the meats we had the fish we caught the crops we grew the apple trees and pear trees and grape flies they just ate food the chickens

who laid eggs and there was no kind of thought of food and in our world oh we're gonna do allat testing for IGG and we're gonna do food eliminations no this is this is our modern Distortion of human physiology but specifically the microbiome and by the way people say things like this well I have it bow syndrome so I'm going on a low fod match diet it reduces the gas fast floating and diarrhea and and but but I hear that I have sibo because if I have IBS I almost guaranteed to haveo but it's too

scary it's too tough it's too hard so here's the question what's what's the result of unaddressed uncorrected sibo well it may take a few years multiple sclerosis Parkinson's disease colon cancer diverticular disease obesity weight gain coronary disease a fibrillation On and On In other words if you put your head in the sand and don't want to deal with the SEO bad things are ahead so that's why I I emphasize well think about this seabo yogurt it's just thinking it's so easy and like you said the initial investment is less than $100 probably and then a

yogurt maker which you could ask for for Christmas I didn't ask for it it was kind my mom loves giving me kitchen gadgets and I'm like thanks Mom but now I'm actually super excited that she got it for me I am seeing this Morgan there are people have really bad sio really bad these are people say things like I took penicillin for four years or I took uh this antibiotic for three years for my acne or whatever they did they they start with overwhelming sibo and those people often have to stay on the sibo yogurt

not for four weeks but often several months before they have full response okay so that's good to know and again this is not the same stuff as store Bart yogurt it's a long fermentation process with specific micro microbes and it's not to say like don't enjoy the store-bought yogurt like I'm still going to eat it because it's probably going to have more protein than the half and half based yogurt but I know that I'm getting different benefits from the different food sources that's kind of my opinion on it by the way Morgan you know that's

that's just a handful of microb there are other many very very interesting microbes ones that consume oxalate ones that consume uric acid ones that uh accelerate your recovery from strenuous exercise ones that reduce arthritis pain ones that reduce waste circumference uh the ones that restore vaginal moisture and reduce urinary tract infections and reduce the risk of miscarriages and premature delivery there are microbes that raise your child's IQ so it that's it really is a very very exciting time yes I can tell you're super super passionate about microbes which is fun because sure there's like people

listening that really need that that need that passion because I mean gut health let's just face it it's not a very sexy topic it's just not so we're trying to make it a little bit more exciting and um motivating for people to focus on by eating a mostly Whole Foods high fiber um you know probiotic Prebiotic Rich diet to feed their gut too um Dr Robert letic in his book said you're not just eating for one eating for two you're not just eating for yourself you're eating for your gut as well because those microbes need

fed all right I have some some questions for you here you know I like sourdough bread what are your thoughts on if you're going to eat grain I know we didn't talk a ton about your your Wheat Belly book or your thoughts on grains but let's kind of touch on that here like why don't you recommend people eat grains first of all a long list of reasons Morgan uh and sadly you not like this and and those reasion are not affected by fermentation as sourd so there's a protein called gadin in wheat caline and Ry

Hine and barley Zen and corn it's a class of proteins called prolamins because they're rich in Proline and humans can't digest them properly so you get the glid and protein let's say of Wheat and you break it down so if you eat let's say uh a pork chop or an egg you break those proteins down into single amino acids to make skin other organs and Hair Etc when you eat the glidin protein of wheat you can only break it down to four or five amino acid long fra peptide fragments and those fragments have opioid properties

that go to the brain and stimulate appetite so wheat the glidin protein of wheat is a huge appetite stimulant that's why big food puts it in everything there's something called wheat germal glutenin it's a protein that's completely indigestible it comes in here you poop it out the toilet hold but it Passage through 30 ft of your GI tract it's extremely toxic it denudes the absorptive Villi on your GI tract there's something called Fates Fates bind all positively charged minerals calcium magnesium iron and zinc and others so if you have let's say a bagel or sandwich

uh it's a ham sandwich whatever and and some foods that have let's say iron or zinc or magnesium you poop out almost all of it now the most serious one is iron a lot of ladies oddly rarely guys almost all females get can get severe iron deficiency anemia I've seen ladies getting bone Mar uh uh biopsies red blood cell transfusions iron injections oral iron living with hemoglobins of seven eight or nine and they're freezing cold all the time they're fatigued they're breathless and never getting normal hemoglobin go grainfree within two weeks the hemoglobin is 12

or 13 back to normal that's Fates then there's amcan a amcan a is the carbohydrate unique to grains it's highly digestible when humans add anal optin tooth rot tooth decay abscess formation misalignment sky rockets here's an interesting fact before humans consumed wheat and Grains going back 12,000 years tooth decay was almost unknown 1 to 3% of all teeth recovered prior to the consumption of Wheat and Grains showed evidence of cavity formation abscess tooth loss or misalignment at a time Morgan no toothbrushes no fluoridated toothpaste no Dental flaws no dentists when grains were added 12,000 years

ago in the Middle East and what is now Israel and Syria about 48,000 years ago in Central America as tient and and Mae as millit in subsaharan Africa what happened to people's teeth tooth decay exploded 16 to 49% of all teeth recovered showed cavities tooth loss abscess formation and misalignment that's why we have uh accounts of course tons of accounts all throughout human history people losing their teeth as teenagers as young people and of course we compensate by extremes of dental hygiene Dental fla floridated toothpaste all that stuff uh cleaning at the dentist office uh

but a lot of it was caused by the consumption of the amalan a of grains am AF of brain is also responsible for heart disease it's the thing that provokes formation of the real cause of heart disease not this ridiculous thing called LDL cholesterol that we should have discarded years ago but small LDL particles not L cholesterol L particles where the amop and a is a flagrant trigger for the formation of so if we say cut your saturated fat eat more healthy whole grains that is a formula for developing heart disease and we have seen

that yes okay I know there's a ton more details in your book on all of those proteins which is interesting I was curious from a Simplicity standpoint if somebody eats grains and they are bloaty and gassy afterwards is that a sign that they're not being properly digested or is that just like everybody everyone gets bloated and gassy after eating grains like the wheat or the corn it can be sign of sibo because there are fibers in grains that are consumed by FAL microbes small intes but it can also be direct toxic effects of the components

of grain so the we ger gluten is is a gast Ines toxin the gadin protein when it's not broken down the peptide is a is a is a bow toxin mopan a is a sugar and be can be consumed by unhealthy microbes that causes gas and bloating including by the way fungal species so you really all you can tell is there's some intolerance at work but you can't tell if it's the grain per se whether it's sibo okay well so if you have bloating if you have gas after eating something that could be a sign

of that you have an intolerance to that food in some way you know Morgan a real Handy little rule for people to follow is let's say you eat something and you have an intolerant symptom within 90 minutes let's say gas bloating headache panic attack asthma attack all people have all kinds of crazy stuff rashes if it occurs within 90 minutes of consumption it's guaranteed you have sibo because if you eat something how fast can I get to the colon 24 feet down well it takes a minimum of 90 minutes if not six hours so if

you have let's say you you eat say let say a tomato or an egg or some nuts and your oh gas bloating diarrhea whatever at 30 to 45 minutes you know you have microbes in the small intestin what if it's longer than 90 minutes then you can't tell it could be okay I'm about popcorn like I always get bloated after I eat it but I've never like timed how long it takes so um same for sourdough bread So speaking of you know in the blunt sugar realm there's a lot of talk on sourdough bread and

how it's healthier for you than regular bread I would love your take I'm not going to stop eating sourdough bread but I want your take on like okay how much better is it what are the risks of it all that you're not going to like this but it still has gadin thereby gadin derive opioid peptides it still has wheat germal gluten the wheat germal gluten content maybe a little bit less from the process of fermentation but it's still there it still has Fates that cause Neutron deficiencies it still has mopc a that causes heart disease

raises blood sugar caus expansion of abdominal fat uh causes insulin resistance uh and of course when you heat it you kill the microbes but but as you know when you kill microbes there's still a little bit of benefit left to dead microbes but you don't get all the benefits of alive microb say as you would say with a fermented food uh like kimchi or cafir or the yogurts so is it like a good better best where it's like best is a grainfree bread better is maybe sourdough well can't really call so it's quit smoking those

maros he said well I'm gonna go to Salems because they're filter and low tar like regular so my opinion on it is from the you said something about the opioid you know totally like if you have a piece of really good sourdough bread it is so hard to not want another piece so like that that I think is really important to pay attention to like what foods am I eating that trigger me to want more foods of that that's probably a sign that there's some sort of pleasure reward going on there trigger so there's an

opioid withdrawal syndrome when you stop eating grains nausea headache depression um fatigue typically last three to five days you can provoke it though by giving you Naran oh my goodness which is like a withdrawal medication for opioid Walker yes wow okay so I'm gonna keep doing I I haven't had it in a while my starter has been in the fridge because I've been busy but you know I'm still going to do it but I'm going to also make some improvements from this conversation like with the sibo yogurt and I have gotten so much better about

watching the portions too of like sourdough like if you're going to have it I think have it at the end of the meal after fat and protein to reduce the blood sugar response um smaller portions all right I think the last question that I had for you came from my husband you know he keep farms and so he wanted to on is it the grain itself which it sounds like yes because you just mentioned a ton of things in the grain there's a lot of conversation on like is it the grain or is it the

processing of the grain the refinement of the grain how would you answer that question it's both but there's nothing you can do in processing that makes it healthy it's it's like tobacco there's nothing you can do to make tobacco good for you same thing you cannot take something that was inappro roate for human consumption so humans turn to grain seeds of grasses by the way Morgan that's what grains are they're seeds of grasses whether it was iron corn wheat the pre-biblical form or emmer the wheat of the Bible or tient or Mae the Forerunner of

corn before the mutation of a cob was created by humans so there's is no way to make it healthy because it is intrinsically inappropriate for human consumption and but it was desperate humans you know when there's war and and um uh um drought all the things that we subject to throughout history humans turn to to grasses in desperation even though you know if if you and your family heaven forbid were starving and you stumble on a wheat field would you say thank goodness we eat like kings well don't you think part of it too was

um the storage capacity of greens and the ease of har like comparatively you know you could you could store a lot of it at one time do you think that had anything to do with it too I mean there are advantages to wheat and Grains but we pay for so storage yes modern processing can generate huge quantities look look at corn fields right in Iowa I see it window huge monoculture Fields um it's the health price though so corn of course there's no such thing as corn in nature there's te it which is a grass

if you saw it you say that's just grass it's got a stalk seed head little tiny seed head it's got leaves it's just the grass but humans somehow managed to mutate it to this bizarre thing called a cob that's really just a mutant form of a seed head and now it's the big it's food for pigs it's food for humans I just I mean this is kind of mindblowing because it's like Things become so second nature you know and it's like foods that human have to foods that humans have developed are now Whole Foods isn't

that interesting all right I feel like I could talk to you all day I know I know when I get to reading your books I'm going to learn so much more but I'm going to start with the sibo yogurt um and just keep that moderate grain I'm not a huge grain person anyways but I think that this conversation and I'm sure reading your books I love the evidence behind stuff so I think that understanding the science and the evidence is very motivating to me to change Behavior so thank you for all the work that you're

doing I can only imagine how many rabbit holes you have to go down to figure out what is actually going on with this grain what is actually going on with this protein and then come back out of the rabbit hole and write it in a way that people can understand like I can only imagine how much thank you Morgan for what you do because what you're doing is so essential you know you may have noticed that people like you and me are no longer welcome on major media because we're it contrary to the interests of

direct consumer drug advertising is such a major Force now in revenue for media that they don't want you and me so what you're doing and what I'm doing that is just trying to educate people tell them what the science tells us is so essential it's a shame you're not a neighbor because I just give you to Yogurt you get you're off off to the razor I know that's what I've just shared my sourdough starter with people I would take your yogurt starter but that's fun because once I make the starter then I can give it

to my mom or my mother-in-law oh that that'll be fun that's even more fun spread the love all right Dr Davis can you let people know where they can learn more about you and get your books so super guts everywhere Barnes & Noble Amazon of course as are the Wheat Belly series and undoctored if you're so inclined uh also my umbrella website is Dr Davis infinite health uh where we have several thousand blog posts we have several hundred thousand discussion forum posts and we have a two-way Zoom once a week in the evening we talk

about this my roai yogurt didn't didn't work out this time or or what does it mean when my my H2 breath test only went up three point so we talk about all these things to help people navigate because as you know Morgan this is not coming from the Healthcare System heck no I mean I've been doing this podcast for over two years and this is the first time that I really tried like understanding microbes on a deeper level and and brought this conversation to the surface great great yeah doing what you're doing thank you so

much you too thanks take care byebye