Peter Attia: Anti-aging Cure No One Talks About! 50% Chance You’ll Die In A Year If This Happens!

death is inevitable but the rate of decline is very much up to us But the drawback that young people have is they only begin to realize the inevitability of the decline when it besets them So your team that came in for testing that are in their 20s when I'm looking at these results there were issues that were uncovered that were a concern And ignoring it doesn't lead to a good outcome when you're 65 But a lot of people have this issue So it's okay to speak freely about this Yeah The biggest concern is that Dr

Dr Peter Aia is the go-to physician for high performers celebrities and anyone serious about unlocking the science behind a longer stronger and healthier life I had a big epiphany at a funeral of a friend of mine who I realized had declined so much during their last decade that when they couldn't do those things that gave them pleasure because of injuries aches and pains they weren't enjoying life I call it the marginal decade Wow Okay So what are the most important parts of my health that I should be thinking about for longevity So there's muscle mass

muscle strength but we don't have a single metric that we can measure that better predicts how long they will live and how high their V2 max is which is a maximum amount of oxygen you can consume And if you compare somebody who is in the top 2% to someone who is in the bottom 25% there is a 400% difference in their all-c cause mortality over the coming year But how do I know if it's an issue or not We'll go into much more detail around that but the way to avoid this is to train specifically

for that marginal decade And there's so many things that we just do wrong The sooner you start the better So rule number one this has always blown my mind a little bit 53% of you that listen to the show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show So could I ask you for a favor before we start If you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button And my commitment to you is if

you do that then I'll do everything in my power me and my team to make sure that this show is better for you every single week We'll listen to your feedback We'll find the guests that you want me to speak to and we'll continue to do what we do Thank you so much Dr Peter what is keeping you busy at the moment in terms of the subjects that you wrote about and outlive but the work that you do online and the work you do in the variety of businesses that you have What is keeping you

fascinated at the moment Like what is what does one's mind focus on I wish I could say one thing There's probably a few things and maybe that's um not good Uh maybe the most successful people in life only think about one thing I would say one of the things I'm thinking a lot about is how to translate outlive into a delivery system uh obviously digitally that basically operationalizes what is in that book in a manner that allows people to with as little friction as possible implement the solutions for themselves So basically how do you live

a longer life How do you age uh as gracefully as possible and maximize your health span I think the other thing I'm focused on that is related to that of course but distinct um which I know your team got to participate in a little bit this week was kind of how to train people for their marginal decade right so this idea of we're all going to have a last decade of life I call it the marginal decade just so that we can get comfortable talking about something that people don't like to think about and um

I'm convinced that ignoring it and Not thinking about it doesn't lead to a good outcome Instead if you prepare for it and train for it like an athlete trains and prepares for their sport uh you'll have the best version of that possible Marginal decades and centurion decathlon Did I say that correctly Centinarian decathlon Yep Centinarian decathlon Can you explain these two terms to me Y So the marginal decade is the last decade Last decade of life Again it's this weird thing where most people don't know the day they've entered it but most people also realize

at some point when they're in it Um I thought a lot about it This was sort of a big epiphany that I had in 2018 when I was sitting in the in the church at a funeral of the parent of a friend of mine who's who I realized had declined so much during the last decade of their life that even though they were alive they weren't enjoying life The things that they loved to do in the case of this individual play golf and tend to the garden they couldn't do they just physically couldn't do it

right They had injuries They had aches and pains And when they couldn't do those things that gave them pleasure they retreated from life And I I I don't think there's a person listening to us who can't appreciate that because they they've witnessed it right They've seen it in a parent a grandparent a loved one And I don't know there was just something about that moment which is often the case right It's usually like years and years of thinking about something and it crystallizes in an instant But in that moment I realized aha the way to

avoid this is to train specifically for that decade And the best model for how to do that is to look at athletes because every athlete trains with specificity right So think think of like all the different types of athletes you would know So if you think about like a sprinter or a basketball player or a football player they are so different and very little of their training looks like the other guy And the reason for that is they're doing something very specific right The sprinter has a goal which is to move 100 meters as fast

as possible That's it And that requires a certain set of skills And the footballer has a totally different goal Yes he has to be able to run fast for short distances but just being able to run fast would not produce in you know superior results And then the basketball player would be different And then the skier would have a totally different set of skills So I said "Well who's the most well-rounded athlete out there?" It's the decathlete because that guy's got to do 10 different things really well Now he or she doesn't have to be

the best in the world at those 10 In fact they never are But overall they're considered the best athlete because of the diversity and breadth of what they can do And so I said that is our model So what is the centinarian decathlon then is I say to you Stephen one day you are going to be in your marginal decade What do you want to be able to do physically athletically in that last decade It's the answer is so clear to me because it's associated with all the things that make me happy So it would

be being able to explore the world still with my partner my romantic partner It would be But I would even dig further Tell me what that looks like Okay So I went to Bali Mhm And me and my girlfriend wanted to go white water rafting And to get down to the white water rafts in Bali we had to walk down and then up again Mhm About a 100 meters of stairs And as I went down those stairs I had one of those moments that it sounds like you had at the funeral where I realized that

my dad could not walk down these stairs He couldn't walk down them and he couldn't walk up them And by the way it's a different reason I'm going to point this out and I want to come back to your story Walking down is not about endurance Walking down is about eccentric strength in the quads to be able to uh decelerate the body as it's moving down Very important Coming up is about concentric strength in the quads and glutes and endurance Okay All right But continue No that's a really good point because they're two different training

systems And then the reason why that was so important was because of the great time I had in the white water raft with my girlfriend So going down that lake through barley and I thought gosh it hadn't if I'm not careful and I don't think about this I won't be able to have these experiences when I'm 60 What was involved in being in the raft Yeah So a lot of strength required to like row um to keep us away from the rocks um to push us off when we got stuck Um fall in the water

get it back in the boat Absolutely Think about the scapular stability that's required Think about the upper body strength you need to lift yourself back into a boat if you fall I mean the list goes on and on and on And it was it was it took a long time We were out there for two hours going through this lake So the other thing I think about is Christmas And I I think about my nieces So my brother's a year older than me and he has three kids under the age of six And you know

what that's like These kids just sprint off in every direction And they'll say to my dad they'll say "Come and play in the garden." And my dad um wouldn't be able to play with them in the garden the way that they would want to play in the garden running around um being chased around So my dad just watches them from the kitchen And so these are just obviously all the emotional things come to mind first because those are the things that stay with us I'll give you one more Um the other thing that comes to

mind as a man is just being able to protect my family And I don't necessarily mean wrestle an intruder but I mean like lift things And um if something falls being able to pick it up and move it So those are the things that come come to mind first and foremost It's protection it's memories it's activities that create relationships and connection I mean that's exactly the exercise we do right we take people through give us the 10 most important things you want to be able to do So like if you start with I want to

be able to go back to Bali and I want to be able to go down those hundred stairs get in the raft go down the river come back up the stairs that gets broken down into very specific movement patterns Playing football with the kids out back gets broken down into very specific movement patterns By the way they're very different right That one comes down much more to foot reactivity lateral movement things like that Being able to pick something up off the floor is yet another set of movement patterns It turns out there are approximately 27

physical requirements that are necessary to do the sum total of most things people want to do Part of the reason why I think people don't care enough is because they see aging as inevitable Mhm So they look at their their parents their grandparents and go they're immobile They can't function properly That's my destiny It's genetic Obviously I don't agree with that Although I have tremendous empathy for people who might feel that way It's uh when you see something as ubiquitous as the decline of untold numbers of people as they age it would be very easy

and tempting to say that that is the inevitability of our species Death is inevitable despite what some biohackers may tell you Um decline is inevitable but the rate of decline is very much up to us and the preservation of strength stamina movement capacity uh those things are largely up to us In fact there are actual data that demonstrate quite clearly In fact I was just reading a paper yesterday in in the journal Cell that looked at the role of exercise in aging individuals to preserve mitochondrial function So this is a study that looked at older

individuals and it randomized one group to a significant amount of exercise and the other group was just sort of business as usual being largely sedentary And then using pretty elaborate techniques where you biopsy the muscle they look at the mitochondria which are the kind of the powerhouse of the cell in these individuals And it turned out that in the people who were exercising there was very little decline in the mitochondrial function compared to what happened in the people who were not exercising Now just because your mitochondria continue to function well doesn't mean all aspects of

aging are offset But it's a very important one to demonstrate And this is also true by the way of strength and endurance There's a big difference in the rate of decline of muscle mass muscle strength and cardiopulmonary fitness in people who exercise versus who don't So it's all kind of a long-winded way of saying um you have as an individual so much more under your control than you realize but you have to sort of begin to compounding the gains I'll do it when I'm 50 Well look the good news is 50 isn't too old And

I've met many people who don't begin to do this until they're 50 But again the analogy I would use here is comparable to that of investing for retirement The longer you wait uh the less money you're probably going to have at the end Springs to mind this graph I saw the other day which I'd sent to my friends which shows that um the the decline I think it was in muscle mass from when you're 30 And it makes the point that there's this line which on this graph called disability And it shows that people who

didn't have enough muscle mass when they were 30 cross the line of disability when they're 70 Uh and those that did have more muscle mass at 30 don't don't get close to that line Um so that for me was shocking because it goes to show that what I do now is going to determine whether I'm you know by all intents of measures disabled when I'm 70 or if I'm able The sooner you start the better The drawback that young people have is I mean you've had a you've had a great experience because you're you're introspective

about it and you've been able to observe it in somebody older So you've been able to gather motivation without having to experience the decline yourself Um so that's a that's a wonderful position to be in For many people that's not the case They only begin to realize the inevitability of the decline when it besets them But the way to think about this again is another analogy is that of a glider So gliders eventually all have to come down right Our health span is basically a glider but we have a lot of control about how long

it stays in the air based on how high we can start it So if you think about you know would you rather take a glider off a really high cliff or off a low cliff that's the that's the decision we get to make And and we sort of call that concept physiologic headroom So the example you gave is a great one right So muscle mass muscle strength provide an enormous amount of physiologic headroom as does cardopulinary fitness These are huge variables that make all the difference and everyone's coming down but the fitter you are the

slower the rate of decline and therefore the longer it takes before you cross below a threshold And that threshold differs by different metrics but once you're below that threshold it's very difficult to engage in activities of enjoyment Peter you're 51 now 52 52 What do you wish someone had told you when you were 32 I'm 32 years old What do you wish um someone had screamed in your face and told you when you were my age It wouldn't have been much about exercise It would have been more about other aspects of life for sure Um

because for whatever reason I've always gravitated towards exercise That's always been a very high priority for me So I think my advice to 32-year-old Peter would be much more about um relationships and emotional health But if I could go back and speak to 14-year-old Peter he a he wouldn't have listened but I would have begged him to go a little bit easier on his body and back off on certain things that probably have led to injuries I have today that could have been prevented Can I ask what they said things are Sure Um I think

I I think I lifted far too heavy far too often and probably without enough coaching on technique And so you know I by the time I was 27 I had a devastating back injury but it's one of those things that happened without any incident which which is often the case by the way for a back injury When you really blow out a disc in your back it's not necessarily something you did in that moment It's usually something that's been built up from the past So this injury I had at the age of 27 really was

the result of years of unnecessarily heavy axial loading uh loading done with probably insufficient technique you know or technique that was at times sloppy and under fatigue because I used to do a lot under fatigue You know I sort of believed in training under a lot of fatigue and and I I think that that's a mistake I think that training under very heavy load should not be done under great fatigue Interesting We'll talk about that as well On that point of advice that you gave me there about emotional health One of the things that's been

very front of mind for me at the moment is men's health specifically men's emotional health because I read a report that came out in March called Lost Boys and it just details this pretty horrific picture of men's emotional health in the UK at the moment in particular but the trend holds around the world and it came out in the start of March It's been in all the newspapers in the UK and it details a couple of sort of headline stats The reverse gender pay gap amongst young men So women are now earning more You know

the stats probably around um soon for every yeah suicide and one in seven young men are unemployed or out of work All these sort of horrific stats and then it compounds with things like suicide suicidal ideation etc etc I was thinking about this this morning when I was listening to some of your your work I was thinking I wonder what Peter's perspective is on what it is to be a man Actually it does kind of dovetail into some of your work around testosterone and the decline in testosterone And because one of the things I was

thinking about is how testosterone plays a role in what it is to be a man but if you look at the stats around testosterone um it appears to be declining Yes And I say this in part as well because testosterone causes a certain set of behaviors um in men that define and shape what a man is and what they want and how they show up And even when I said earlier on protection as one of the three things I cared about that's probably in part because of the testosterone in me This debate around testosterone this

conversation around testosterone um and its decline is it declining It is It is Why is it declining and what and is this does it matter Well I think the second question is easier to answer than the first I do think it matters Um the the the why is probably multiffactorial and the why is just as important as the fact that it is In other words the fact that it's declining is both relevant for the fact that a very very important hormone that has incredible benefit to men uh and women by the way is going down

And we have to come up with a an answer to that right Like so how do we address that Do we address it medically where we replace that hormone exogenously meaning we give you that hormone directly or do we try to fix the underlying problem So if you want to do the latter you have to know what the underlying problem is Now at the population level the best answer as to why testosterone levels are declining and um unmistakably they are So the data here are unambiguous There's no debate on this fact Um the debate is

around the why I believe that the best answer probably has to do with two things Uh one is uh increase in body weight and fat body fat specifically in men Um and uh some combination of uh reduced quality of sleep and um and and and sort of disruption to sleep So so why are those two things relevant So when you increase body fat two things are happening One is you're increasing inflammation and you are reducing the amount of testosterone that gets to stay in the form of testosterone because part of the testosterone gets converted into

estrogen So with body fat comes more of this process called aromatization or converting testosterone into estrogen So if you think about what those two things are doing if you have more inflammation that reduces your ability to make testosterone and you have more capacity to turn the less testosterone you make into estrogen the net result of that is both of those things are reducing your total pool of testosterone If you couple that with less you know lower quality sleep and I'm not talking about over the last three years I'm comparing like now to say 40 years

ago And what are all the reasons that people might have poorer quality of sleep Now I think there are many but obviously phones and social media and uh just the stimulation of the world we live in probably plays a greater role in that Sleep is when we make these hormones right So so so we we make follicle stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone at their maximum amount during sleep and those are the hormones that are driving the production of testosterone So what we've seen in many of our patients when they have low testosterone because there's a

test you can do to see if their testosterone is low because their body can't make it or because their brain isn't receiving enough of a signal to make it This is a very easy thing to determine medically Unfortunately most people aren't subjected to that level of testing because they go to these testosterone shops on street corners that are just giving everybody testosterone But if if if a physician is curious enough to understand that you can give a patient a drug or a hormone called hCG HCG is luteinizing hormone which is one of the hormones made

by the brain So if you come in and you see a man who's got very low testosterone and you can understand why you give him luteinizing hormone If he still has low testosterone you know that he has what's called primary hypogonatism which means his testosterone is low because his testes can't make testosterone Conversely if you give the man luteinizing hormone and all of a sudden his testosterone goes up he has secondary hypogonadism or I mean you could mix the primary secondary there but really what it the terminology doesn't mean anything what matters is he can

make testosterone but for some reason his brain isn't giving his body the signal to do it And that's that's a classic finding in a person who's under high stress and or not sleeping well So that's a long-winded answer to your question but I think that those are probably the greatest contributors to this Now people have talked a lot about what about microplastics what about other environmental factors what about other factors in nutrition beyond just the ones that would contribute to excess body fat The evidence there is less compelling but I don't think we should discount

it But I I think I think that that if those things are playing a role it is probably much smaller than than what we just talked about I was thinking as you were speaking about sleep and testosterone about how and also the link there with bad diets how if I've not slept well I wake up and make worse food choices for sure And I was like is that like dopamine dysfunction Probably more due to insulin signaling So um we know from ex really good experimental studies that when you sleepdeprive people they become insulin resistant and

the more insulin resistant a person is the less they're able to access their stored uh energy So higher insulin resistance means greater difficulty accessing stored energy So if you're if you wake up and you're if you know if you have successive days of poor sleep and you're becoming somewhat insulin resistant um you're going to want to eat more because you're not able to access your own natural stores of fat which is where we want to go for energy So if you look at one experiment that was done out of the University of Chicago they they

took uh healthy subjects young young subjects and sleepd deprived them for somewhere between 10 and 14 days So not a huge period of time And they only let them sleep four hours a night which by the way I know a lot of people who were doing that for years at a time In in that 10 to 14 day period of time their insulin resistance was worsened by 50% This is in other words they they do an experiment called a uglycemic clamp where they inject them with glucose to see how effectively they can put glucose into

their cells which is that's the that's the hallmark of insulin sensitivity is how well you can put glucose into your muscles when it's infused in you and their capacity to do that was reduced by 50% after such a short intervention Um so I think sleep uh restriction and unhealthy sleep is a is a very underappreciated cause of metabolic health and weight gain and then by extension these other things we're talking about It seems to me to be the thing furthest upstream in my life that then causes this cascading effect to how I show up in

sort of cognitive performance How well I can articulate myself if I go to the gym how hard my workout is if I choose healthy options versus unhealthy options So it feels like the and mood in general Yeah Yeah I mean look I I I've said this before and I'm not the first to say this so I'm paraphrasing others but if you really stop to think about it sleep doesn't make a lot of sense from an evolutionary perspective Like if you go back in time a few hundred thousand years why would we have spent a third

of our life unconscious It didn't serve our purpose You can't mate you can't hunt and you can't defend yourself So you have to believe that if we could have evolved out of it we would have done it and we didn't So that means that whatever it's doing it must be really important I mean core essential to our existence While I will completely acknowledge that different people have a different necessity or requirement for how much they sleep I still think that many people underestimate how much they need You know you asked me at the start you

said um what are the things that you want to do when you reach your marginal decade And I gave you my answer What's your answer to that now that you're a father in heaven or in a different season of life Well they're very similar to the types of things you're thinking about And I love how you've got specific examples So I really like playing with my kids right So I can imagine that in my marginal decade I'll have grandkids that are the age of my kids Yeah Right And and you know maybe a bit older

but but as I'm even getting towards that marginal decade Okay So playing sports is really really fun I really like playing especially because when I grew up like I played hockey because I grew up in Canada and then I immediately went into kind of boxing and martial arts and those became my life So now playing sports that I didn't play much as a kid is really fun Like I'm really enjoying baseball I'm really enjoying soccer And um and so when you play these things you realize this is not an easy thing to do when you

get old Like to sit in the you know to play to sit in the goal and actually like stop a ball when a kid is blasting at you full stop You have to be able to move around So again like I would love to be able to play soccer throw a football throw and hit a baseball as long as possible you can get into movements that are much simpler Uh but if I can do all of those things I'm in great shape Now of course to be able to do that I also need to be

able to do a lot of things that many people also can't do in their marginal decade like sit on the floor get up off the floor under their own power um you know walk up x number of flights of stairs having the strength to do that I like doing certain things like I like archery a lot So it's you know I want to be able to pull a bow back Obviously not at the same poundage as the current bow that I pull back but I would still like to be able to pull a 50 lb

bow back in the final decade of my life And when you think about all those things you want to accomplish if we were then to sort of codify them into a bunch of exercises or areas of your health that you had to now be thinking about that I needed to be thinking about what are the most important things So I'm a 32-year-old What are what are the most important parts of my health that I should be thinking about if I want to achieve all the things that I said to you in my final decade No

one in the final decade of their life ever said "I wish I had less strength and I wish I I wish I had less endurance." So you cannot be too strong and you cannot be too fit The only time that one would throttle back on the pursuit of those is a if doing so is come at the expense of something else either with respect to your health or your life and two if the pursuit of that at such an extreme level produces risk of injury Okay So in other words could I be stronger than I

am today Yes Uh I'll give you an example We know that in resistance training the sweet spot for pure strength is one to five reps When your goal is to maximize strength you need to be pushing 1 2 3 4 five reps Once you start thinking about hypertrophy muscle size we're starting to think about 7 8 9 10 11 12 reps Once we start thinking about muscular endurance we start thinking about north of 15 right Those are the general patterns of resistance training So if I want to build my muscles because I'm going for aesthetic

goals then I need to be aiming above five reps I need to be 10 or 12 But if I'm just purely thinking about strength bigger weights but lower reps That's exactly right Okay And then if I got muscular endurance which be even higher reps Okay Lower weight Yep Okay So again we could go into much more detail around that but just to finish the point here why do I not do much training at one to five reps In fact these days I don't do any training at 1 to five reps anymore Why Because to train

at 1 to five reps comes at a risk Okay Especially for heavy compound movements So like I'm you know I'm okay getting a little bit less of a strength benefit while still of course getting stronger but training at a higher rep load So I'm typically so I'm targeting 8 to 12 reps with one to two reps in reserve is basically how I'm doing my resistance training That means every set I'm doing I would expect to get to within about one rep of failure somewhere So today when I lifted I don't think I did less than

seven I didn't do more than 12 And the weight was always titrated so that I was either failing almost failing or one rep away from failing somewhere in there And I was adjusting the weight constantly on every exercise to get there with the exception of one exercise I did Push-ups was one of the things I did Push-ups are kind of more in the muscle endurance Obviously I'm doing more reps when I was doing push-ups but pretty much everything else was in that range So again I'm not fully maximizing strength anymore because the cost of it

might be a little bit high in terms of injury risk Similarly I'm not strength training 24/7 because I need to make time to do my endurance training and other types of training How often do you train uh resistance training I resistance training three times a week And how often do you train generally And I train every day Every day Yeah Why Because you know again the the intensity of my training is not that high At least three days a week So the three resistance days are pretty hard because I'm really only doing each body part

once a week So when I'm doing it I'm really I'll spend that 90 minutes really kind of hammering those body parts Three of those days are just zone two So my three three of my four cardio days are zone two days where I'm doing you know I'm on a bike and I am riding at a level of intensity that actually allows me to still talk some you know not not talk like I am now but talking in a sort of a strained way So for me that's about a heart rate of 140 beats per minute

And that's just not that's just not taking a huge toll on me like that Those are almost like recovery days for me And then one day a week I do a a really really hard V2 max day and that's that's a really hard day That burns a lot of matches That's tomorrow Not looking forward to it already Do you do cardio on your resistance training days as well No I don't So it's the seven day It's four days of cardio three days of uh of resistance Now that's going to change in the summer when I'm

going to add 3 days of swimming Um and I will end up doing some swims on some resistance days So before you do your resistance workout you don't go on the stepper for 20 minutes or cycle for 20 minutes or something I don't Is there a particular reason why It wouldn't really serve a purpose Um I So I I know a lot of people do that I know a lot of people will say "Hey I'm going to do a little bit of a warm up on this treadmill or the stepmaster before I lift." But I

actually have a pretty strong point of view on how we should warm up to lift And I don't think walking on the treadmill or running on the treadmill or being on the stairmaster or on the bike is a great prep for the lift I think it's better to warm up for a lift doing movements that prepare you to lift So for example like if it's a leg day so Monday's leg day right So what am I going to do I'm going to start by doing a bunch of core stabilizing stuff So I'm going to do

a whole bunch of this dynamic neuromuscular stabilization stuff So you get into basically these baby positions and you really learn to activate your core as you move around in a six-month position and stuff like that I then do a whole bunch of um like do you know what a 9090 is or a shinbox exercise is um where you're you're kind of on the ground in a position where you're really is you know uh you can start out doing it isometrically but ultimately going through uh a slow eccentric and concentric phase of movement that's kind of

activating glutes So I go through basically a whole DNS sequence Then I get into a dynamic movement prep So then I get into a bunch of bouncing a bunch of footwork Um and then I start with really light weights So I'll go to a leg extension machine and do very very light leg extensions very very light leg curls Come back and do more jumping and moving and lunging and go back and forth So I'll spend 20 minutes doing a warm-up but the warm-up is geared for me to lift Whereas if I had just sat on

a bike and pedal around that doesn't actually replicate any of the movements I'm going to do when I start loading myself I've got particularly concerned about injury Yeah Now that I'm 32 because when I was bloody 20 I could do almost anything it seemed and nothing would break But I had a couple of injuries when doing like shoulder presses and things like that And one of my friends had a similar injury recently which took him out for three or four months where he did a shoulder press pulled something in his back or something his like

neck Yeah And then he couldn't like turn his head anymore In terms of injury if I wanted to get injured am I right in thinking that the the thing that leads to injury is basically just walking straight in and trying to lift something heavy Or is there things further upstream that cause injury in the gym No there's I mean that's one way to increase your risk of injury for sure Uh but but yes there are other ways that it can happen and I think about it a lot I mean one of the injuries I think

a lot about are calf injuries Achilles injuries sort of tendon injuries This is I think one of the things that becomes a real problem for people as they age You know you you often hear about people my age uh tearing an Achilles It's a devastating injury Now again it's not devastating in that you won't recover from it but boy it's going to take you out of commission for 6 months So a lot of these injuries happen because the individual still has strength um but they've they've kind of lost some of the pliability in the tendon

because they've kind of lost some of the jumping That's why I always start these workouts with low level of jumping and I'll progress to higher levels of jumping But jumping is actually a very important part of training and it's one of the things that we take for granted But boy when your ability to jump is gone and jumping by the way can mean like just initiating a jump But it can also mean jumping off something and stopping yourself Those are really important skills And so like something like jumping rope is really important right Your feet

are just kind of moving like that They're they're acting as shock absorbers Calfs and Achilles have to constantly change in length And that accommodation is a really important part of resilience And I think that should that should be an important part of everybody's warm-up at a minimum if not part of their workout One thing I'd love you to do is to persuade people listening that muscle mass matters for longevity because um and also if you can within that that leg day matters because we all avoid leg day including me and sometimes I need to be

told again why why it matters for me to add it Well I mean I think look muscle mass um is is probably the second most highly uh correlated finding uh or third most to longevity after strength and cardiorespiratory fitness V2 max So why is that Um so first of all I think that muscle mass is both directly a proxy for strength in general The more muscle you have the stronger you are We all know exceptions to that We know wiry little people who are insanely strong And I have patients like that They're just naturally you

know thin people But when we put them through the testing protocols you know they're remarkable in terms of their strength And I tend to not worry about the fact that they're slight in build when when I see that they're strong across the board There is another benefit of muscle mass which is it's the place where you dispose of glucose So from a metabolic perspective the more muscle mass you have the more glucose buffering capacity you have And why does that matter as I age Because you know one of the hallmarks of aging is a reduction

in the capacity to metabolize and buffer glucose And so as as glucose levels become less and less regulated all sorts of bad things happen uh bad things happen to micro vessels in the body So we if you think of the most extreme example of this is type two diabetes So once a person has type two diabetes what are they at risk for They're at the risk of reduced vision and ultimately blindness amputations of their digits impetence right The penis has tons of tiny blood vessels in it and the more that you know glycosillated proteins accumulate

there the less they get blood flow and obviously damage to the small blood vessels of the brain as well So all of these things are hugely problematic when glucose is disregulated And again the most important thing that you can do to regulate glucose in addition to the obvious which is eating energy balance not eating too much is making sure you have large insulin sensitive muscles which means large muscles in the context of an individual who's sleeping well and exercising And you're going to basically have a great place to put all of that glucose when you

consume it And is that going to save off me getting belly fat because my glucose is going to be stored in the muscles as opposed to somewhere else or again it all depends on the total energy balance But yes it's clearly going to make a difference right So one of the shest ways to um reduce your capacity to store fat is to add more muscle Okay Um I I did the grip strength test I've done it twice now And meaning you did one of the like grip meters or you did a hanging test The uh

one of the grip grip meters actually did it at Brian Johnson's house and then I but I also did it with Andy Galpin and people tell me it's a indicator of longevity but I've never really understood why is it just testing my strength Yeah Um grip strength of all the strength metrics it's one of the most highly correlated with longevity We actually prefer to do it like at 10 squared where your colleagues tested yesterday We prefer to do it on a dead hang So we make them hang from a bar Um and we just time

how long they can hang So that that's a really good metric of your grip strength because it's also normalized to your weight Okay So uh so we we want to see that people can hang for at least two minutes on a bar And so the question is why is that so highly correlated with longevity And it's what you said It's it's it's strength Uh and the reason for it is it's really hard to be strong anywhere in the upper body if your grip is weak Like if you think about being able to push especially being

able to pull like all of the real metrics of upper body strength require a strong grip And if you have a strong grip you have a strong hand you have a strong forearm you have a strong scapula that is connected to your rib cage like it goes up the whole chain That's another reason why we like the dead hang as a way to test it because the dead hang is testing everything It's testing your actual grip It's testing your scapular stabilization the stability of your shoulder It's basically testing that entire chain And then I also

think there's a practical side of this right when when you know it's very underappreciated what frailty does to an aging individual and what sarcopenia loss of muscle mass does to an aging person and and what it is about falling that is so devastating to an older person and the stronger your grip the easier you're able to navigate a lot of those things right it just seems unthinkable that falling is something I should be thinking about at 32 in the future like cuz my seems ridiculous it seems ridiculous yeah and yet it is devastating So once

you reach the age of 65 which that ain't that far I mean if you you know 65 year olds all day long that does that's not a that's not a very old person Yeah Once you reach the age of 65 your mortality from a fall that results in a broken hip or femur is 15 to 30% Think just think that is such a staggering number So you're over 65 you fall and that fall results in the break of a femur or hip There's a 15 to 30% chance you'll be dead within a year What kills

me It could be something very acute like you bang you know the fall that's significant enough to do that also bangs your head It could be that you get a fat embolism you get a blood clot It could be that you know during the recovery process of this you just never really get better You never thrive again I think a more disturbing statistic is that of all the people who survive 50% will never again regain the level of function they had before the injury Wow So they will require a cane for the rest of their

life or something like that Um now there are lots of things that account for that Andy Galpin who you mentioned a moment ago talks a lot about this but it's a lot of it comes down to foot explosiveness power So the reason you're not really afraid of falling like when was the last time you were walking and you your your foot caught something and you you slipped like yesterday Yeah quite often Yeah exactly Why don't you fall when that happens Because I can quickly readjust right That's power Okay so you have the power in your

foot to readjust when you lose your step You step off a curb not realizing it it doesn't matter You readjust Okay those are a very very specific muscle fiber that is responsible for that It's called the type 2B muscle fiber That is the first fiber that atrophies when you age In fact you're already at your peak It's all downhill from where you are now Thank you so much Yes So I'm I'm already 20 years past you and my power is a fraction of what it was 20 years ago Now I fight like hell based on

the exercises I do to try to make to try to keep it as high as possible So the reason that these you know people who are in their 70s are falling all the time is people think it's a balance thing It's not just a balance thing right It's that they're undergoing the same insult you and I undergo on a daily basis But the difference is their probability of being able to catch it either through the explosiveness of their foot or their lower leg coupled with maybe not being able to grab onto something as quickly and

adjust Uh it's a power deficit problem So what do I have to train now at 32 to ensure that specifically the example of hitting something and quickly being able to adjust Um I'm able to do that when I'm 70 I think jumping is a great way to do this right So so I mean I use certain specialized pieces of equipment that actually have power built into it because power is different from strength right So strength is really the ability to is is just the ability to move a force independent of the speed at which you

move it Power is the maximum combination of force and speed Okay So if you on the on the on the um x axis if you were to put force and on the y-axis if you were to put power the curve is an inverted u So as the force or the weight that you're moving goes up and you're trying to move it as fast as you can you're getting more and more and more and more power But then at some point the weight gets so heavy that even as you continue to move it it's going slower

and slower and slower So your power is going down So there's a sweet spot there So one of the things I do is there's certain specialized pieces of equipment that allow you to train in that way So I definitely rely on a lot of those But even if you don't have access to that machine jumping is a really important way to generate power So if you're just doing a vertical jump that's a that's power What about balance I I was at Brian Johnson's house and as he was cooking his I don't know breakfast or lunch

or whatever he was balancing on a half ball You've seen one of those things Yeah Yeah I I don't think I asked him why he was balancing on it but I assume it was to do with balance and the certain muscles in the in the leg There are lots of exercises that are great for balance Um anything that produces instability is great because it's uh you know for lack of a better term I've heard it described as problem solving for your foot Okay Right So so if you think about being on any unstable surface even

if you're just walking on an unstable surface so if you if you were to look at a person's foot their lower leg actually as they're walking on a surface that's constantly changing so like a gravel path or something like that you're going to see like if this were my lower leg you would see the musculature of the lower leg constantly adjusting to it And so yeah I'm I really enjoy things that force that type of training Do you do flexibility stuff Yeah So I'm actually naturally a pretty lax person So I don't do any stretching

if that's what you're asking But all of the sort of stability and dynamic stuff I do incorporates movement at end ranges So um I I'll give you an example of why I think the notion of flexibility might be a little bit misunderstood If you ask a person to stand up and with their legs straight touch their toes most people would say that's a great test of flexibility in the hamstring right And most people can't do that What they don't realize is everybody's hamstrings are long enough to allow them to do that The reason they can't

do it is their central nervous system will not release them to do it Does that make sense Interesting The central nervous system won't release them to do it That's right It doesn't feel safe for them to do it Now how do I know this Because if you take a person under general anesthesia you can put them into almost any position possible So if you took a person under general anesthesia laid them on the operating room table you could lift their leg up to here When they're awake you couldn't get it past here When they wake

up from surgery will they have a torn hamstring Not at all They won't even know their leg was moved The difference is when they're under general anesthesia their brain is not sending a signal to the leg that says don't lift So why is the why is the leg why is the brain doing that to the individual This is how I learned it on a personal level So about six years ago I had tweaked my back and had just done a you know unnecessarily heavy set of deadlifts and just pushed it a little too far And

I was kind of nursing this this sort of you know just very very tight QL I was completely jammed up And I came in to to do some training with a friend of mine who's one of the guys that actually he is really the guy that introduced me to this thing called DNS dynamic neuromuscular stabilization And I mean I was stiff as a board I couldn't you know get past my knees bending forward and I'd been hurting for like three days And we went through a series of exercises for 40 minutes which included me laying

on my back with my legs up him leaning on top of me so my feet are here on his chest and doing isomemmetric pushes while working on uh generating intraabdominal pressure And after an yeah maybe 40 minutes of this type of exercises I was palms on the floor Now how do I go from not being able to get to my knees to palms on the floor in 40 minutes with three days of horrible back pain The difference is when I my back was hurting it was my body was not going to let me go down

right The body was saying "No way your back I'm protecting you because you were you are not stable You're not going to go any further And what we went through with this exercise and a series of exercises was basically I mean I'm oversimplifying this and sort of anthropomorphizing it but letting my brain know it's okay You're stable You're stable You're stable The back is safe The back is safe Let him go And then ah I'm palms on the floor So I love testing this Sometimes I'll just wake up in the morning and do five minutes

of breathing exercises when I'm stiff as a board and just get into a you know position on the floor Why the breathing breathing exercises Because that's really how it's the it's the the breathing is how I kind of create this cylinder in my abdomen to sort of push the you know push the the the floor of the cylinder down as the pelvic wall The diaphragm is the se cylinder uh the top and then the the entire you know entirety of my abdomen is the wall of the cylinder And so I kind of go through these

exercises every single day usually on my back actually That's kind of like part of my warm-up and and it's just a way to kind of ground myself around creating uh concentric pressure in the abdomen Just to get some tips from you around your your strength training regime Um how many exercises do you do What does I'm really curious So you train three days a week doing strength and resistance stuff Do you do like shoulders and back and um as like a pet like you know people it's just totally Yeah Yeah Exactly So on Monday Monday

is uh is pure lower body Okay And uh uh Wednesday is arms and shoulders and Friday is uh chest and back Okay Super simple like nothing nothing no rocket science An hour uh I mean it's it's a like an hour and a half of lifting play plus maybe 20 minutes of the warm-up stuff So on the chest and back day how many chest exercises are you doing Four Four Okay And then four on back Yeah Okay And I just I'm just super setting them And I'm going to do maybe five sets of each So five

working sets So there's a lot of warm-up in there too Um and I'll also do some other stuff like some medball slams or things like that as well There's been this huge rise in people doing these um high roxes and sort of elite endurance events and and such really interesting that it's become so popular Even things like running clubs I know but the fact that people are more people are doing marathons now than ever before Why do you think this is happening I don't know I mean I think it's a very net positive thing though

I mean I I I I do think that there's um more and more people that are taking up things like rucking and running and and you know finding camaraderie in these things The only thing I hope is that that people are doing it in a manner that's sustainable and safe and allows them to do it indefinitely So I you know I just I'm always hopeful that whatever thing that people are doing they're not injuring themselves cuz again rule number one is don't get injured So So you're you know you're you're you're playing uh you're playing

you want the game the name of the game is to play the game as long as possible In front of me I have a bunch of different graphs and images Um and they some of them relate to a word you said earlier on which is V2 max And this is something I've heard you talk about previously but for anyone that doesn't understand what V2 max is or why it's important um can you explain what it is and why it's so critical to longevity and health span I think most people will be familiar with the idea

that we are obligate anorobes which in English means we cannot survive without oxygen Okay So why is that So oxygen is absolutely essential to catalyze the chemical reaction that turns food into a currency for energy called ATP So everybody's probably heard of ATP ATP is the money the currency of energy in our body Anything that interrupts the production of ATP is fatal So an extreme example of that is cyanide Everyone's heard of cyanide as a poison If you take cyanide you'll be dead within seconds because cyanide blocks one of the transporters in the production of

ATP So that just gives you a sense of how critical it is to have an infinite and abundant supply of ATP Oxygen is also essential for that That's why without oxygen you can only survive for a couple of minutes Longer than you can without cyanide but not much longer So how does it work So we breathe in air and that air goes into our lungs and that air goes through our lungs into these distal things called capillaries where hemoglobin is bringing the waste product called carbon dioxide back to the lungs And there's a gradient of

of partial pressure between oxygen and carbon dioxide such that a switch takes place The air that we breathe in delivers some of its oxygen to the hemoglobin molecules and the carbon dioxide diffuses off that into the air and we breathe out air that is lower in oxygen and higher in carbon dioxide than what we breathed in Mhm So if I go that was high oxygen low carbon dioxide that was low oxygen high carbon dioxide And that's the that's happening every second of every day That oxygen that hemoglobin molecule that's carrying oxygen is carrying it to

every cell in my body because every cell in my body needs oxygen And that cell in the body is taking the oxygen to run that chemical reaction to make ATP and it's shuttling back carbon dioxide And it's just the most incredible thing in the world to imagine how frequently this is happening And the more you exercise the more you consume oxygen So oxygen consumption is a proxy for energy demand So we can measure this Now to do so you have to put a mask on because I have to be able to measure very precisely two

things I have to be able to measure exactly the flow rate of air going in and out of your mouth and I have to be able to measure very precisely the concentration of oxygen coming out If I know those two things I can calculate how many lers per minute of oxygen you are consuming So you and I sitting here right now are probably consuming less than half a liter a minute So call it 500 cc a minute of oxygen right now because you have to consume some to be alive And look I'm moving my arms

around and you're nodding and taking notes So you know if you're sleeping you might be consuming 300 milliliters of oxygen per minute That's that's the lowest level If you were to get up and we were to walk around here that number might go up to 800 milliliters uh per minute If we were to walk a little more briskly we might be at a liter per minute of oxygen If I said "Let's go out in the parking lot and jog." Well we might get up to like 1.5 L per minute we pick up the pace a

little bit we'll get to two liters per minute If I start really really running us hard we're going to get to three and a half four liters per minute Well at some point I am going to push you so hard that you will achieve your maximum level of oxygen consumption And if I push you any harder and faster you won't extract more oxygen from the air You may go faster but you will do so through a process that does not involve the consumption of oxygen You will do do so through an anorobic glycolytic pathway but

you will have achieved your maximum consumption of oxygen And that number has a very special name It's called V2 max So V2 max measured in liters per minute is the maximum amount of oxygen you can consume And the only way you can measure that again is to have this mask with very very fancy apparatus that measures both of those things I said And you have to be stressed hard So we typically do this on a treadmill or on a bike So your your your colleagues that came into 10 squared yesterday they did it on treadmills

They ran and they ran them and ran them and they ran them until they couldn't go any faster And then we measured how many liters per minute of oxygen they were consuming Now that answers what V2 max is So the next question is does this matter Well the short answer is we don't have a single metric of humans that we can measure that better predicts how long they will live than how high their V2 max is And it's not even close to be completely clear So if you compare somebody who is in the top 2%

to someone who is in the bottom 25% for their age uh the difference in mortality is 5x 500% Yes 400% technically because with hazard ratios you you you go two two a 2x hazard ratio is 100% I guess Yeah So let's look at you So I see you've pulled this chart out which is one of my favorite charts Okay So you Oh by the way there's one other thing I should state We normalize this by weight Okay Okay So we always divide that number of liters per minute by how many kilograms you are So the

number is actually reported as milliliters per kilogram per minute Okay Okay All right So if we look at somebody who is your age male 30 to 39 if their V2 max is below 35 milliliters per kilogram per minute they are in the bottom 25% Conversely if they are at 53 milliliters per kilogram per minute they are in the top two and a half percent So to be clear if you take a 35-year-old man and one of them has a V2 max of 53 and the other one has a V2 max of 35 there is a

400% difference in their all-c cause mortality over the coming year Wow Okay So all cause mortality anything killing them over the coming year That's right Now this becomes more and more profound as you age because the all cause mortality ratio for a 35-year-old is incredibly low Yeah it's like 1% So that means you're comparing 1% to 4% It's not that big a deal But when you get up to my age so I'm two decades older than you So now the low bar the bottom quartile is less than 29 The high bar is more than 50

Well my relative mortality in the next decade is probably 2 to 3% So now multiply that by four Okay When I get into my marginal decade the low bar is 18 The high bar is 36 That's a 2x difference in V2 max A 4x difference in mortality is huge when the all-c cause mortality for an 85y old is going to be you know the one-year annual you know the one-year mortality for that person is you know more than 10% Yeah So one of the things that we do is we sort of think through this not

just through the lens of mortality which is what I just walked you through here but also health span which is kind of what you were talking about earlier with the graph of strength and disability So we have another figure that we show people that um on the x axis shows age Yeah And on the y ais shows V2 And it has a whole bunch of lines that come across that show various activities You know if you want to be able to run a six-minute mile you have to have a V2 that's very high If you

want to be able to run an 8-minute mile a 10-minute mile If you want to be able to climb a flight of stairs without getting out of breath like it shows all of these different things And you see what the required V2 is Mhm I think in fact we might even have these graphs in here Yeah Right there So we put your dot on the graph and we say if you stay where you are you're meaning right at that green curve you're in for a great life Why Because even when you're in your 80s you're

still going to be able to do all of those things So the results you're looking at here are Jack's results Yep Who runs the production here He came to your center Yep Came to 10 squared in Austin He did the test I think he was on the treadmill for like an hour or something like that And can you explain to me exactly what his results say as it relates to what you were just describing Yeah So he did both a zone 2 and a V2 max test So Jack got on the treadmill and you know

there's a protocol for how you warm somebody up really want them to be able to get to a maximum effort You don't just put them on a treadmill and crank it up You take you take your time getting them up there And he had an amazing result So his V2 max was 4.1 lers per minute And he achieved that at a heart rate of 204 beats per minute which is higher than what was predicted for his age If you normalize it by his weight he was at 56.5 milliliters per kilogram per minute So when you

look at his age because he's in his 20s he was at about the 97th percentile for his age meaning his V2 max was higher than 97% of people his age And uh so out of the gate that just tells us from a longevity standpoint our goal is to keep him there as long as possible I mean we're so ambitious with our patients and clients that we actually want them to be as as an aspiration to be two decades younger at the top 2% So if you're 50 you want to be V2 max north of 53

And then the other thing we do is we check on something called heart rate recovery So in 60 seconds post V2 max how long does it take uh how many beats does their heart rate come down in one minute This is also a very powerful predictor of mortality because it's a huge indication of what's called parasympathetic sympathetic balance So it's basically a question of how does the how how much is their autonomic nervous system in favor of sort of a stress response versus a recovery response And so the gold standard here we want to see

people that can recover at least 30 beats in the first minute He did pretty well He recovered 28 beats You know if you're really really fit you're going to be 40 50 beats of recovery within the first um one minute It's incredible Incredible Then we tested his um lactate levels and we ran him for what we called zone 2 testing Right So zone 2 is his aerobic base This is where he should be spending 80% of his training 80% of his cardio training time should be in this energy system So it's hard enough that it's

not just pure recovery but not so hard that it's you know uh pushing energy systems that are that are higher This is this is a pace he should be able to hold for an hour and he should certainly feel like he's working but not feel it too much Technically it's also a place where he's prod he's got maximum fat oxidation So we do this also in the same measure on a treadmill This is a bit more of a complicated test because you're titrating between how he feels and what his blood lactate levels are Maybe not

to get too complicated in the weeds on that but we're simultaneously looking at the ratio of how much carbon dioxide he produces to how much oxygen he consumes That tells us how much fat he is using in his own body And we look at that number and he maxed out at.77 grams per minute which is very good One gram per minute of fat oxidation is exceptional So 7677 is pretty darn good His lactate hit about 2 mill and he achieved this running at 7.3 miles hour So So again that's there there's a lot to unpack

in there but that gives us a pretty good sense of his level of fitness And for a guy in his 20s um that's that's really good fitness He does a lot of running Yes Yeah Yeah Yeah And and but even this test is a body of work We normally would separate these two tests on two separate days Okay So people you know the the people who come to 10 squared are not from Austin They're from all over the place So they come in for two days of testing And you got to sort of figure out

a way to take a person who's not necessarily that fit and and allow them to do these tests So it's kind of broken up over to a couple days so they can mix it with the strength testing and all the other stuff And if you were advising Jack on how to improve some of these scores here what would you say So the truth of the matter is looking at his stuff here I would say I think you've got the endurance thing really covered in his case there were other issues that were uncovered during his intake

that were of more concern and this is a matter of like now what we think of as portfolio management right so when your V2 max is in the top 2% when your fat oxidizing 7 you know almost8 grams per minute and he's got a heart rate of 165 to 170 when he's um in zone 2 I mean this Guys cardio is dialed in Bad skin I've had it and I'm sure many of you listening have had it too Or maybe you have it right now I know how draining it can be especially if you're in

a job where you're presenting often like I am So let me tell you about something that's helped both my partner and me and my sister which is red light therapy I only got into this a couple of years ago but I wish I'd known a little bit sooner I've been using our show sponsors Bon Chargar's infrared sauna blanket for a while now but I just got hold of their red light therapy mask as well Red light has been proven to have so many benefits for the body Like any area of your skin that's exposed will

see a reduction in scarring wrinkles and even blemishes It also helps with complexion It boosts collagen and it does that by targeting the upper layers of your skin And Bon Charge ships worldwide with easy returns and a year-long warranty on all of their products So if you'd like to try it yourself head over to bondcharge.com/diary and use code diary for 25% off any product sitewide Just make sure you order through this link boncharge.com/diary with code diary I've got a story that I think you'll be interested in hearing and it's brought to you by my show

sponsor Fiverr About 6 months ago my team and I sat down to try and work out how we were going to build the most valuable newsletter for ambitious entrepreneurs ever And after hours of discussion we finally agreed that to tip the odds in our favor we needed to be constantly experimenting But to do this we needed man power or woman power So we hired a group of freelancers through Fiverr and tasked them with testing different elements which are like the visuals in the newsletter the subject lines the copy links And even after launching 100 CEOs

the new newsletter and getting 93,000 signups on the first day our experimenting hasn't stopped I'm confident we wouldn't have seen the same success had we not experimented in this way And our freelance support from Fiverr was critical to that So next time you're launching something find your failures and fix them fast with Fiverr freelancers Visit fiverr.com/diary today and use code doc for 10% off your first order These are Jack's results So I've invited Jack in because I feel like he might have some questions and you might have some questions So you guys go ahead All

right Well uh first off Jack thanks for being an awesome guinea pig yesterday You hit it out of the park um as far as your cardio training So tell me a little bit like what are you what are you doing for cardio How often are you running So I actually stripped it back quite a lot I probably started maybe maybe like two years ago going really heavy on running and that's all I did And then I started getting a little bit injured So now I've cut it back but I'd say I do like one long

run a week and that's like 20k Outside of that I don't really do much other cardio Interesting I I know that the team talked to you about your left foot Yes And did did they show you the pictures on the treadmill They did Yeah That's super interesting Super interesting I sprained my ankle really badly like 6 months ago Y said that could have been something I think it's very likely that the ankle sprain has not has changed your gate such that you probably are going to develop an injury over time with your running if the

if your pattern is not corrected So you're overcompensating on the left and did I I assume that I assume you noticed the difference in the height of your shoulders and your head and everything while you were running So even though the engine is working insanely well this test only measures the performance of your engine your chassis which is a subjective assessment to use the car analogy shows that the chassis is a bit weak Okay I'll give a bit of context on what that actually was So when I was running on the treadmill um I think

it was Kyler was it He he showed me a picture afterwards of me running and basically my head was right in the middle When I went on my right side but then when I went on my left my whole body was like a bit lopsided Y So yeah that's kind of what you're talking about there That's right And again like the good news about running is each step is very light Mhm But if you're running 20k that's a lot of steps So even something that's a light impact but done thousands of times will produce a

problem Okay so let's shift from how well the engine is which is exceptional at both ends By the way to be clear your peak engine output which is V2 max was awesome and your engine efficiency which was your zone 2 your fat oxidation exceptional We do have this issue on the chassis that needs to be addressed or you're going to get a repetitive strain injury Mhm Um so then the next thing that the the team did was just a very simple test called the DEEXA scan but we we do a more comprehensive one So we're

looking at all the bone density left hip right hip lumbar spine and then total body fat total muscle mass and then visceral fat which is fat around the organs I think the most surprising aspect of the test was your bone density So um a DEXA scan uh measures bone density very accurately and both uh sort of across the board in terms of your your lumbar spine and your right hip and your left hip you were in your in your lumbar spine two standard deviations below the mean for someone your age So that means basically you're

in the bottom 10 percentile of bone density for a guy your age And for your hips you're not much better Both on the left and right hip you're about 1 and a half to 1.7 standard deviations below the mean So what does that mean That means that you're at you you already have something called osteoporosis So when your T-core which in your case is almost the same as your zcore because of your age but the zcore compares you to someone your age The t-core compares you to someone 30 years old So when your T-core is

minus1 um you have osteopenia and when it gets below minus 2.5 you have osteoporosis Those are just technical definitions of bone density The problem is your risk of bone fracture goes up really significantly Now because of how young you are It's not like I'm worried you're going to walk out of here and something's going to go wrong But the risk of you sustaining an injury in sport is is not trivial Right If you were out skiing and Steven was out skiing assuming he had normal bone density and you guys both took a tumble I would

be infinitely more worried about your bone density And we have patients in our practice who do They're young healthy people and they get these freakish fractures while skiing or playing sports and things like that and they have really low bone density So so one it's just something we want to address The bigger concern is that what's what is the what is the story of this going to be when you're 60 and 65 and 70 And that's that's the one where we really want to mitigate it So I know that the team talked to you about

making sure you follow up with an endocrinologist You want to make sure that there's nothing here that is medically obvious to be treated such as vitamin D deficiency anything that has to do with parathyroid hormone or calcium and things that are you know medically obvious to treat Um the most important behavioral thing that a person can do with low bone density beyond correcting all the nutritional deficiencies that can lead to it is applying heavy load to the bone So bones are active pieces of tissue even though we don't think of them that way and they

respond to deformation So you have to put strain into a bone for it to respond and strengthen And it's counterintuitive that running is not amazing at doing that It's not bad So on in general runners have better bone density than sedentary people but not by much believe it or not Uh swimmers and cyclists believe it or not tech actually have lower bone density on average But resistance training with heavy weights is is actually kind of what is necessary Grappling as well by the way people who do jiu-jitsu strength training resistance training those are those are

the ways that you're going to you're going to increase this So I would say that was the first finding that that that is you know important and worth discussing Do you have any questions on that Cuz I've got a couple Uh well I think my first one was so I I only actually started lifting weights like properly maybe two years ago So that's probably why you're seeing that Maybe I mean I guess did you have asthma as a child or anything No I know when I my mom says something about like when I was born

I had low calcium something about low calcium they had to put something on my teeth but I don't know what that is exactly Well if you had low if if there's something that was impacting your calcium levels when you were little that would certainly be a potential risk for it Um the the our bones are mostly formed for for males in the early 20s for girls typically in the late teens So anything that disrupted calcium metabolism when you were young could have played a role in this for sure Um the reason I asked if you

had asthma is a lot of the times we see folks that you know had any medical condition that required corticosteroids prolonged use of corticosteroids would be another big risk factor Of course there's also genetics So probably worth knowing if your parents themselves have low bone density Um but but it sounds like there's something going on with calcium metabolism as a as a kid that might have played a role Um the reason it is really important to connect with an endocrinologist now is there are actual medical uh treatments that can increase bone density in addition to

all of sort of the total optimization of the nutritional stuff vitamin D calcium levels things of that nature and of course the training M are there specific exercises I would do to increase that or is it just an all round kind of No I mean I think the the if you think about the long bones of the body which are the the the ones that we're basically measuring here I mean the short bones in the spine but the femurss and hips anything that puts those things under deformation So anything from a farmer's carry to a

step up to a box squat I mean you know it's whatever you can do safely that's loading you and placing these bones in a manner that that forces them to to actually undergo deformation The way the way and the other thing I would also make sure of is that someone's checking your blood levels to look at things like testosterone and estrogen So estrogen believe it or not probably the most important hormone besides vitamin D in bone health So you can think of a bone as something with a strain gauge in it And as the bone

is deformed the strain gauge sends a signal a chemical signal to cells that build the bone The chemical signal is estrogen So the reason women are so susceptible to osteopenio and osteoporosis is once they go through menopause many of them lose their estrogen if they're not placed on well they all lose their estrogen but if they're not placed on hormone replacement therapy they don't get it back And so they lose that chemical signal So women see a rapid drop off in bone density at menopause Peter is this graph accurate roughly Yes this would be accurate

So if this is broadly accurate what is the game then for someone like Jack Is it is it building bone or is it preventing decline Yeah Preventing decline Most of us reach our peak bone mass uh in our 20s Okay Yep So so the name of the game is prevent it from getting any weaker The good news is by the way I had a woman on my podcast named Belinda Beck who studies osteoporosis She's she's from Australia and um she did this amazing study there called the Lyftmore study where she enrolled a bunch of women

with osteoporosis who had never done any resistance training and half of them were randomized to the usual activities like you know yoga and things of that nature and then half of them were randomized to heavy resistance training And the women that did the heavy resistance training actually first of all on DEXA saw no change in bone density or saw a very minor reduction in bone density compared to a significant reduction in the women who were not resistance training But more importantly on CT scans the women who had did done the resistance training actually showed an

increase in cortical thickening of bone suggesting that it might even be that DEXA is not by itself sufficient to fully assess bone health It assesses bone density but not necessarily bone health And her hypothesis is that these women might actually be getting stronger bones even if the density is going down just a little But either way even if density were sufficient the fact that their density went down so much less than the others uh was amazing And it's it's actually you know if you can find the video and link to it on YouTube Belinda Beck's

lift more study It's just an awesome video to watch these little old ladies walking around picking up you know deadlifting their body weight and stuff like that Is there anything else you wanted to ask Jack or about your results or anything else pressing questions you you have Yeah nutrition would be a good one actually Yeah calcium vitamin D protein everything that's going to support muscle mass as well because that's the other thing that we found here So we we looked at your body fat percentage Again in absolute terms not that high but for your age

pretty high right Because you're because you're young So you were at the 80th percentile for your age and your visceral fat was at the 50th percentile for your age We like to see so we don't really care that much about total body fat We care a lot more about visceral fat So the fact that your visceral fat was at the 50th percentile Visceral fat is the fat that's around your organs That's the more metabolically deranging damaging fat We actually we have a very high standard We want to see that below the 10th percentile I'll hit

pause on that for a second But then to relay the next thing that we looked at was your muscle mass So we looked at the total muscle mass in your arms and legs That's called your appendicular lean mass And then we looked at the total fat-free mass in your body And both of those put you at about the 20th percentile So the first question I'm asking when I'm looking at these results is are you adequately muscled or undermuscled So I really want to see somebody above the 50th percentile in muscle mass So you're under muscled

The second thing I'm looking at is with the body fat percentage where it is both and the visceral fat is that to me I call that overnourished Now I don't have blood tests to see where you are metabolically but I want those are the those are what I call my three questions Are you metabolically healthy or not I need a blood test to see it I suspect you are though based on your zone 2 So the fact that your fat oxidation was 77 grams per minute very hard and your fasting lactate was 0.5 which is

also very good So my bet is you are metabolically healthy We would have to do a bunch of blood tests to confirm that but I bet you would be But you are overnourished meaning body fat is too high and visceral fat is too high And you are under muscled your ALMI and your FFMI are too low So that immediately tells me like what do you need to be doing You need to be eating more protein fewer calories more resistance training You don't need to do any more cardio Like that's like oversimplification but like that's the

that's your path forward And the last question I had around uh I think I've heard you speak about it before but it's around like the potential of what your muscles mass can be If you lift as a teenager versus if you start lifting and you're I'm 29 So if I start lifting at like 27 the potential is a lot less right Is that true or is that uh I'm I'm I'm not sure I think I think genetics play a pretty big role in that Um and I think in other words I think that your ceiling

is probably more dictated by your genetics than it is the age at which you started I think if you took a you know someone who was just genetically wired to put on muscle and they don't start lifting until they're in their 20s they're still going to put on a ton of muscle I mean like I've been lifting weights my whole life since I was 13 years old I'm never going to be like a monster Like it's just not gonna happen right there's no chance I'm ever going to be on the stage of a bodybuilding you

know contest Okay Yeah That's just one thing that's like always haunted me Well haunted me in the last two years Yeah Yeah Yeah And now you but but but I don't again there's you have to consider a bunch of variables as you're lifting Right So are you training at the right intensity Are you training at the right frequency Do you have the right selection of exercises Is your technique correct So lifting weights it's not a uniform term Um so so you really have to dive into that right So to put on muscle you probably need

to be doing a minimum of 10 and I would say ideally closer to 20 sets per week per body group The intensity has to be sufficient So we were talking about that minimum two ideally one rep in reserve per working set So if you're if you're just doing like three sets of 10 but you could have done three more reps if you really pushed there was no training stimulus there I've got a question on that which is linked to one of my friends but it's something I've heard you say which is you you've said to

me before that you struggled with gaining weight Yes A friend of mine says has said this to me for the last 10 years that muscle Yeah He said yeah So he says like he even when he eats a lot he has like feels like he's force-feeding himself um and it's like not natural and then when he goes to the gym he hasn't seen the results Whereas for me I don't I've never had the problem of like I I can eat loads and then I go to the gym and I work out and muscle comes on

So for those people that struggle with a eating enough calories and then they go to the gym and they don't feel like they're able to gain muscle you've you've experienced this before haven't you You've experienced people that have said this to you Sure It's actually much more common with with women than men but um it it's sort of focusing more on the protein as opposed to the total calories I mean you do need the calories but it's probably breaking down the protein intake into smaller servings Um and that for many people just means they have

to get shakes or things like that like they're not going to get it through whole foods all the time I I I don't need to drink shakes because I'm able to get protein through food enough but that shouldn't be viewed as as something you don't want to do I mean even I'm sure some of the you know most successful bodybuilders in the world just based on their protein requirements still have to resort to shakes So figuring out what it takes to get one gram of protein per pound of body weight and making sure you get

that even if it takes four servings a day is a it should be the highest priority And again you don't need more calories at this point based on your visceral and body fat Um we just need to make sure you're getting that gram of protein per pound of body weight Um and that you're doing the you're getting the right training stimulus in the gym Okay Yeah Thank you Okay Thank you for that Peter I didn't know we were going to be doing a little consult here I know but it's super fascinating Even for me even

though they're not my results I learned a ton about about that Um the question we don't necessarily need to go through all of the results here for Jamaima but how do you see women's results being different typically as it relates to bone density muscle mass and those things I was wondering if even for the V2 max are expecting different results for women or well we we score them on a different curve So the the results are going to be a little lower and again part of the reason is women have less muscle all things equal

and muscle is the organ that is going to consume the most oxygen uh I mean outside of the brain So um so you know if you if you took a a woman at 25 and a man at 25 there's a different threshold for what a what the grade is on the curve But I would say the biggest difference we typically see is and not so much at the ages of these guys because they're both so young and fit but as we as we get into kind of older folks we we definitely see more of an

issue with muscle mass in women and bone density in women I was quite surprised with Jack when you you talked about um visceral fat Yeah There's two types of fat that I've come to learn Subcutaneous which is I think is on the outside is and then visceral is around the organs Right So the body fat is mostly measuring his subcutaneous fat Oh on the outside Y Okay I've got a little bit of subcutaneous fat right now As we do all how do I know if it's if it's an issue or not Unfortunately it's very difficult

to know without further investigation Um I say this because I haven't been able to predict it looking at somebody Like I've seen people who have lots of subcutaneous fat but when you look at their liver and look at their visceral fat they have virtually none And they tend to be quite metabolically healthy So maybe aesthetically they've got too much body fat And there are lots of reasons why they might want that might not want that I'm sorry based on you know excess body weight that just in general is an impediment to movement or you know

pain in their knees or joints Um but it's not actually causing them harm physiologically And conversely you know if you look at Jack like he's he actually looks he's a pretty lean-look guy Like nobody would look at Jack and say he's overweight but he's got a little bit too much fat on the inside and that if not I mean I think his running and his fitness is probably offsetting it metabolically but there might be come a day when that's not the case So it it you know this is something that I think just needs to

be addressed and and again people that are in their 20s can get away with a lot and it starts to become something you don't get away with in your 40s Is there a genetic component to this and also what has caused it What usually causes it the body fat the visceral fat Visceral fat Yeah there's definitely a genetic component to it but the truth of the matter is the cause of this is is just fuel partitioning It's just it's just where the body is putting excess energy right So so all of the fat we have

in our body comes down to where does our body choose to store excess energy because that's that's the only way we store it We can't store protein So we can only store I mean we store protein technically in muscles but we're basically storing carbohydrates and fat So you can store carbohydrates preferably in the muscle and in the liver as glycogen but that's a very finite source So most of where you're storing those things is excess glucose gets stored as fat and then in fat gets stored as fat So if theoretically if Jack had a higher

muscle mass he would have less visceral fat potentially Yeah probably because first of all muscle is more metabolically active So more metabolically active tissue means higher energy expenditure which would all things equal mean lower fat That makes sense And if there were a couple of things that I could do to reduce my visceral fat we talked about exercise there We talked about diet Intermittent fasting do they are you are you a fan of those kinds of things There's no evidence that intermittent fasting produces any benefits above the equivalent amount of caloric restriction So you know

whe whether you're eating in eight hours or six hours or across 12 hours if the same number of calories are consumed it's essentially producing the same outcome Sleep stress absolutely dramatic We've talked about sleep already right if your sleep is not good you are going to be insulin resistant If you are insulin resistant you are partitioning fuel in an unfavorable way which in English means you are more likely to access glucose than access fat even at low levels of intensity when you should be accessing fat That's why by the way I thought he's probably still

insulin sensitive based on how high his fat oxidation was Meaning when he was at 165 beats per minute on a treadmill he was pulling out almost 0.88 gram per minute of fat That's really good That tells me he fuel partitions well He knows how to access fat when he needs fat So that's that's still working in his favor But for many people once they're exercising that hard their their fat oxidation goes to hell and all they're doing is accessing glucose But there could be a link for in his case between sleep and visceral fat Yep

Especially if he travels with you Yeah And then alcohol You mean Jack doesn't drink alcohol But generally visceral fat and alcohol Yeah Bad sign I want to talk to you about this alcohol point because I saw Huberman um tweet the other day saying that it's now pretty well established that even moderate alcohol intake is bad for you But I sat here the other day with someone else who said to me that they talked about the Medit Mediterranean diet the Italians they seem to be fine etc And I wanted to kind of get your perspective on

whether small amounts of alcohol intake are okay or not because some people still think it's healthy to have moderate alcohol intake It's better for the heart I think that is pretty abundantly not true So I don't think I am aware of any real evidence and we've scrutinized the heck out of this We so the subscribers to our podcast get these premium newsletters every month where we do an ultra insane deep dive into a topic and alcohol was one of them So this is like you're getting a treaties right a 20page research report on a topic

So uh for anybody who's interested in that they should go and get the alcohol piece but I'll link it below Yeah the TLDDR is that there is no compelling evidence whatsoever that there is a health benefit that comes from ethanol consumption The molecule of ethanol is not healthy at any dose and I believe that is unambiguously true That said it does not appear to be linearly toxic meaning low doses probably sub 15 gram per day 15 grams of ethanol would be what you would get in a standard drink Standard drink not a generous drink So

you know whatever Like 3 4 ounces of wine would be 15 grams of ethanol 14 grams of ethanol It appears that for most people the toxicity of that amount of ethanol is very difficult to measure And this is where you get into the area of for some people there might actually be enough of a pro-social benefit from that amount of ethanol if consumed in an otherwise healthy environment Right So if you talk about the individual who comes home and has a glass of wine while he's with his wife and they kind of unwind in the

backyard and talk about their day and things like that there might be benefits from doing that that outweigh the very very small amount of toxicity that came in that ethanol Once you reach about 30 grams of ethanol a day I don't see and I have not seen a shred of evidence that there is any amount of pro-social behavior that can offset the toxicity of that ethanol So while I would not go as far as the World Health Organization which has condemned ethanol as a carcinogen at every dose I just don't see the data to make

that case for every dose I tell my patients in a very measured nuanced way kind of what I just told you like you know I drink alcohol and I I but I but I think about it every time I do like is it worth it Is it worth it Is it worth it Like I'm not just drinking for the sake of drinking I have this expression don't drink on airplanes because the alcohol sucks Like I'm not just drinking to numb myself right Like if I'm going to drink there's a reason It's going to be really

freaking good And that for me amounts to probably like four drinks a week Just for a second I want to talk about a company I've invested in and who sponsored this podcast called Zoey Like me many of you are big on tracking your fitness and your sleep But how many of you understand how your body handles food Metabolic fitness is all about understanding your metabolism's response to food And we all react differently So Zoe created a test to help you understand how your body responds And it starts with their famous test cookies which are identical

test meals with the same sugar fat and calorie content of the average meal and therefore acts as a metabolic challenge You also wear a continuous glucose monitor that tests your blood sugar levels I've done this test and it left me wondering how my metabolic fitness compared to others like me and my results revealed everything So if you'd like to learn about your body's response to food head over to zoey.com to order your test kit now And if you want a discount use code Stephen 10 at checkout for 10% off your membership As a Zoey member

you'll get an athome test kit and personalized nutrition program to help you make smarter food choices that support your health That's zoe.com with code stephven10 You're just talking about airplanes there I was thinking about electrolytes There's been a huge boom over the last couple of months year of people consuming more and more um electrolytes Everyone's launching an electrolyte drink and consuming much more salt and sodium What do you make of this Are we electrolyte deficient Um well first of all as a disclosure I'm an investor in a company that sells electrolytes so LMT Um so

I'm an investor in that company which I always want to disclose stuff like that if it's pertinent Um the short answer is it depends So why did I get interested in electrolytes Well I historically never consumed electrolytes when exercising I was pretty much always consuming water and or water plus carbohydrate depending on the intensity and duration of the exercise I also tend to have very low blood pressure and a couple of years ago I had a really really bad fall when I woke up in the morning and I was jet-lagged So I had just flown

to Brazil So obviously you get a little bit dehydrated on a plane and then the first like you know you get in whatever that night and then the next morning I woke up got out of bed and faceplanted into a table You can probably still see the scar on my forehead And I got back home and you know my doc measures my blood pressure It's like 95 over 60 And he's like yeah you're just you're really dehydrated man Like you we need to get a little more And it's not like I don't eat salt I

make zero effort to restrict sodium in my diet but clearly I was just exercising too much you know I mean especially living in Texas like when I'm exercising outdoors I'm sweating like crazy So it was like you just got to get more salt man So I just went I literally then did a super deep dive on hydration and realized that there's basically two ways to maximize hydration Either you consume water with a high enough not just a high enough with the absolute correct concentration of glucose in it and the correct concentration is between five and

6% So that's 50 to 60 grams of glucose per liter of fluid will maximize water uptake through the sodium water transporter or you consume um what's called osmotic sodium in water Those are your two options uh with the with the glucose one being slightly better And so what I realized is look I don't exercise long enough anymore to justify it And the only workout I do a week that is intense enough to justify it is that V2 max one where I'm I actually am using glucose and water But for the rest of my workouts I

don't I don't need it I just need sodium and water And then I just went through every product on the market Like literally went to Amazon click click click click click click click order every one of them and realize at the end of the day it's a commodity product Get the one that tastes the best because that's the one you're going to have to suck down every day Peter what's the most important thing we didn't talk about that we should have talked about as it relates to your work the science that you're obsessed with at

the moment and anything that my audience might and should need to know that we haven't yet discussed May maybe just the idea that it's really tempting in in the world I live in to want to find single sources of problems right So there's always a there's always a a boogeyman and I think unfortunately the the entire landscape of health influencing and social media has has created a very unhelpful narrative around many of these things And so you know there's an effect called the Dunning Krueger effect which can be sort of you know put into a

cartoon right Where it shows you know experience on the uh x-axis and confidence on the y- axis So you've seen this graph I'm sure where it starts out like it just skyrockets up to what's called the peak of stupidity and then it kind of comes down into the valley of humility and then as you become more and more of an expert you gradually rise right So so this idea of like the deeper you go out from shore the further from shore the deeper the water gets And yet and most of what you're what what I'm

sure your audience is is going to be exposed to because we all are if we're on social media or whatever is like people preaching from the peak of Mount Stupidity And so I think maybe maybe the thing to be thinking about is like what are the signs of that right And it's usually people that are like there's one thing that is the thing right like it's this additive in food or it's this particular oil or it's this sugar or it's this that and it's like the truth of the matter is it isn't one thing like

it's it's really really complicated and it's hard to talk about things that are complicated and we tend to just want to focus on one thing and I've been guilty of this myself if I look at stuff I was writing 15 years ago I'm like man you really oversimplified that too much like you overindex on that and you ignored this thing and and so I I just think that you know try try to identify people out there who are talking about things in a nuanced way and you're generally going to be closer to the direction of

reality and how do you deal with that as a podcast host because you must sit there you know so much about the subject matter and you must sit there and hear people say to you on your podcast things that you don't agree with Well on my podcast it's easy because again the nature of my podcast is super inquisitive So it's just very easy to to push back and sometimes I don't Sometimes I'll you know I I was recently interviewing somebody and they they made a comment and and I just knew it was wrong but I

I was like you know I I'll make an editorial comment later about this for the audience to understand that he's he's he's confusing cause and effect And I didn't push back and afterwards I thought I probably should have I probably should have pushed back on what he said a little bit Um but again on my podcast it's easy I think the bigger issue is when people send me links to podcasts like what do you think of this and I have to go through and like explain why what this person said is completely wrong I mean

just completely unfounded in any scientific uh basis whatsoever But they're a very compelling speaker and so I get it like I get why you know that that you would you know as as my friend send that to me with concern One of the things we've introduced recently well in the last 3 four months is just we put um we have some independent scientific individuals who have a look at some of the things that are being said just to cross reference and provide context We call it kind of context checking Nice just because some of the

bigger things obviously there's so many big as you were saying so many terms like seed oils and this and this and this that have started a bit of a nutrition war on the internet and so we just want to make sure that we provide more context to these things so that a person at home who isn't going to take it upon themselves to apply that context or do the research has more more of a wide opinion but it's difficult because as you say oftent times it's the best speaker or the person with the most conviction

that gets heard um you've managed to break through all of that and provide an tremendous amount of nuance and complexity to these subjects but also to achieve the same focus and articulation and resonance and accessibility that some of those individuals have achieved I would highly recommend anybody who has not read this book to read this book because this is the book on this subject And I say that I've interviewed many hundreds of people but this is the book on this subject It's been a global phenomenon for all the reasons I've described about it being so

accessible It's so nuanced but so um easy for someone like me to understand even though I'm not a scientist And it's the book that I recommend to my friends to my family when they're trying to understand the subject matter of longevity in a world where there is just so much information And that's why this book did so well and it continues to do so unbelievably well But I'd also recommend everybody go check out your podcast which I love watching And also if they want um other resources from you where do we send people Peter I

think our website probably So Peter Aia MD the the website will probably direct people to all the different sort of places where we have unbelievable amounts of free information So we have a newsletter that comes out every single week It's free It's really valuable People you know the open rate on that is through the roof because it's not junk like it's it's we're putting something in your inbox every single Sunday that you're going to want to read about the exact topics you're asking So I'm going to link all of that below So put all of

the links below for for Peter's work if you if you haven't become obsessed like we all are here with Peter's work And I really mean that We're all massive fans of yours Jack was saying before you came he said "Oh I love Peter." You were saying this the other day I was saying this about a week ago And that's something that I think we all feel because of the impact you've had on our lives of demystifying this information but bringing it to us in a way that's so so accessible so smart and so trustworthy So

Peter thank you for what you're doing because you're demystifying a very complicated world for all of us And it's a world that if demystified we stand a better chance of living happier healthier longer lives And there's probably nothing more important to to what makes life meaningful and fulfilling And me being able to walk up and down those stairs in Bali when I'm 75 So thank you Peter It's tremendous Really really tremendous And I appreciate you very very much Peter I I was so caught up in um admiration of you that I forgot that we have

to ask you this question which is the question left by the last guest And that is what would you do if you weren't afraid Why that face Oh Um because I've been dealing with that for a long I've been dealing with something for for a couple of weeks that that is is is incredibly uh frightening but I think I've finally worked up the courage to do it Um but I can't speak about it unfortunately Oh really um at least not yet I will be able to one day There will be a day when I will

be able to tell this story and it it will it will be one of the most important decisions I've ever made in my life Oh I'm so curious and so intrigued Yeah And it's um I can tell by your reaction that it's going to be profound for both you and all of us I could tell by your reaction because I can tell that there's some element of struggle there So yes whatever it is best of luck and maybe we'll talk again in the future once you've uh been able to talk about it I can't wait

Thank you Peter We launched these conversation cards and they sold out and we launched them again and they sold out again We launched them again and they sold out again because people love playing these with colleagues at work with friends at home and also with family And we've also got a big audience that use them as journal prompts Every single time a guest comes on the diary of a CEO they leave a question for the next guest in the diary And I've sat here with some of the most incredible people in the world and they've

left all of these questions in the diary And I've ranked them from one to three in terms of the depth One being a starter question And level three if you look on the back here this is a level three becomes a much deeper question That builds even more connection If you turn the cards over and you scan that QR code you can see who answered the card and watch the video of them answering it in real time So if you would like to get your hands on some of these conversation cards go to the diary.com

or look at the link in the description below This has always blown my mind a little bit 53% of you that listen to the show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show So could I ask you for a favor If you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button And my commitment to you is if you do that then I'll do everything in my power me and my team to make sure that

this show is better for you every single week We'll listen to your feedback We'll find the guests that you want me to speak to and we'll continue to do what we do Thank you so much Heat Heat [Music] I Wow [Music]