Strategic Bitcoin Reserve Geopolitical Impacts and "Bitcoin for America" w/ Matthew Pines

talked about how policy is nonlinear think about it like bitcoin's price kind of like a gradually then suddenly thing the president's words have weight and these moves could trigger responses by other countries and other national leaders that potentially can go quicker than our Democratic process can and so all of those changes could be precipitated by you know not much this next 6 12 months I think will be very critical to the future of Bitcoin in America all right welcome everybody we are here with Matt Pines executive director at the Bitcoin policy Institute where he oversees

operational execution special programs and strategic engagement Matt has 13 years of experience helping the government and private sector address pressing security challenges um we're here with Matt today to touch a little bit on uh what's going on on Tuesday which is going to be the Bitcoin policy institute's Bitcoin for America programming or an event that they're hosting in Washington DC but before we get into that let me pass the mic over to you Matt would you mind just introducing yourself bit more for the audience yeah thanks for having me so uh yeah recently joined uh

BPI full-time as executive director I've been supporting them since they're founding by Grant mccardy and David zel uh as a national security fellow and so my background has been more in helping the government assess uh you know worst case scenarios and to sort of think around these different Corners asking these sort of what if questions technology disruption geopolitical change and so I started looking at Bitcoin through that lens uh several years ago um and then now it's become a strategic question that I think requires my full-time engagement and so I am really excited to now

uh jump in to help lead BPI as uh both the organization as well as Bitcoin takes on an entirely new dimension okay amazing so we're as one of the new leaders for it were you one of the people who conceptualized this event on Tuesday again it's called Bitcoin for America where we'll be talking about how this current Administration uh generally speaking the American government looks at Bitcoin and how they utilize it moving forward so were you one of the people behind this yeah so BPI uh you know we kind of we're cooking it up right

and we thought um you know this is a unique moment right we have our annual policy Summit which is our major event uh we're going to putting on our major uh that that next policy Summit uh in June um and uh that's usually our biggest event of the year we put a lot of effort into it we really want to make that be kind of a marquee uh uh policy organizational activity this uh you know in DC um we felt we couldn't wait that long right um there's a loten happening this is a unique window

in uh in in time and sort of the historical opportunity is now and so we thought uh this is the right moment to try to organize um an event to Capital to sort of capitalize on on the on the momentum here so that's that's Bitcoin for America all right interesting um so I'm assuming that this was initially planned without the knowledge that a crypto Summit would be happening at the White House tomorrow um am I right in assuming such a thing yeah no it was a complete complete happen stance um yeah that they happen to

line up within a few days of each other um but no no uh no prior planning involved in that okay sounds good well I imagine everyone at bpi's eyes are going to be on what happens tomorrow so let's actually just start there given that it is something that will obviously be addressed on Tuesday um what are you expecting to come out of the summit tomorrow and how much of it do you think will revolve around or focus on bitcoin I think uh and I'm I'm updating in real time I think uh a lot has been

in flux over the past few days uh even around that event and I know it's been the subject of R speculation I think the team at the White House has been doing you know Yan's work to try to coordinate uh you know an enormous number of different stakeholders to put something like this on not only do they have to engage the industry participants right that are going to be there representing a wide range of different voices but then you have the president's working group itself which is a constellation of executive brand officials all with their

own important responsibilities and then you have David sax and Bo Hines trying to Wrangle all that together so um as as as somebody who's trying to organize a an event with not much notice to put on uh and draw a lot of signifant voices to the table and to generate um you know significant uh momentum I I I have sympathy for for what it takes to to make to sort of spin all those different plates um but yeah I am expecting now uh more explicit recognition of the distinction between Bitcoin and other digital assets okay

and I'm expecting a much more explicit delineation of the logic around a street of Bitcoin reserve and the and US government's relationship to bitcoin and other digital assets um and I'm looking forward to seeing uh kind of what's the forward-looking um you know uh stance what's what tangibly is going to be executed the executive order laid out a timeline you know into July for the development of specific recommendations by the working group on things like stable coins and digital asset stockpile I'm expecting you know more to come uh you know tomorrow that will move that

particular ball for forward uh but I I'm still unclear on the nature of the timeline right how much has actually been accelerated how much has been pulled forward uh and and how does this concept of a of a crypto Reserve interface or intersect with these other initiatives like a sovereign wealth fund um and so I think there's a lot of interesting ideas on the table uh all the all the signs coming out more recently uh that I've heard are are very positive uh but you know this is uh this is DC right things change things

evolve um and it's uh it's all about sort of uh making voice heard yeah so things do change quite quickly on Sunday we had uh president Trump tweeting about this us strategic crypto Reserve I'll Accent on the word or I'll highlight the word crypto there not a strategic Bitcoin Reserve necessarily uh he initially announced that coins like I think it was xrp soul and Ada would be a part of it um the internet exploded and uh all of a sudden he came back and said of course Bitcoin and ethereum will be a part of this

as well then we also heard from prominent voices in the industry like uh Cameran one of the winkl Vos twins Naval ravaan um even Brian from um the CEO of coinbase speaking up saying you know I don't really think it makes much more you know makes much sense to have anything other than Bitcoin in a strategic Reserve so do you think that some of this messaging has gotten across to president Trump and you think he'll address this tomorrow at the summit uh yes I would agree that um the industry reaction has been uh quite unanimous

right even from from Corners that maybe you wouldn't have expected in terms of the univocal recognition that only Bitcoin really can satisfy any reasonable criteria to be included as part of a National Asset uh Reserve right so this is uh an important um uh barometer that is now being measured and is now I think hopefully going to be reflected in in official government policy moves um you know remains to be seen like how that gets articulated how the you know the broader stance of the of the US government and the federal government towards digital assets

more generally gets gets defined and sort of uh what what distinctions are made right and I think this is part of the larger conversation that that the executive order called for right like how to um Define you know different sorts of use cases that recognize the distinct attributes of Bitcoin relative to other digital assets while recognizing that um there's a there's a there's a Marketplace out there and I don't think the government is in a position to pick winners or or losers uh per se but recognize that Bitcoin is is unique and if there is

going to be something like uh Bitcoin Reserve U or strategic reserve of digital assets Bitcoin is the only thing that makes sense to include yeah could we touch a little bit on that I know we're we're doing this for Bitcoin magazine of course we have people here who understand that Bitcoin is unique but maybe talk a little bit about this especially given the fact that you've been such a proponent of the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve even before this announcement um the B BPI in general has been a proponent of it um you know just a quick

overview of why Bitcoin is unique in this regard and why the United States might want to have some in a strategic Reserve yeah so I think in the president's uh executive order explicitly called for the delineation of criteria uh that would be used to justify the inclusion or exclusion of any digital asset so I think it's clear if you were to write down those criteria you would you would settle on a number of things that that Mark out Bitcoin as as distinct that are well known to bitcoiners right the fact that there is uh no

sort of central um uh issuer no no one that has uh sort of a small group control over the nature of the protocol the issuance schedule uh and where there's no essentially Insider crew that stands to gain disproportionately uh for the issuance or sale of of the token right and that Bitcoin had kind of this uh Immaculate Conception uh the issuance schedule was fixed from the beginning uh you know big you know even Satoshi had had to mine those initial coins there was no privileged insiders associated with it um and that gives confidence in the

supply cap so this is actual fixed hard asset that can function as digital gold right so if the function of a strategic Reserve is to sort of complement our our analog gold Reserve with something like digital gold then Bitcoin is functions as that digital gold synthetic uh commodity because of those unique properties and I think those are recognized um and I think it's an important uh set of criteria that only Bitcoin can can satisfy um now to the second question which is why should the US government hold Bitcoin at all why should have a reserve

of Bitcoin in particular and this is a larger argument I think we've given in a few different uh you know 50 page white papers that BPI specializes in producing um but if I had to boil it down it's it's it's in essence the government exists to provide um essentially long-term strategic resilience to its population and to act on the the the popular um uh welfare over over the long term and so no institution can provide uh for the common wheel over the long term with a sense of generation resilience and so individuals can acquire Bitcoin

in their portfolios companies can acquire it for their balance sheet and for their stockholders investment funds can acquired for their for their investors um but only the country can secure generational resilience on behalf of current and future generations and so the country has to look around corners has to think about disruptions to the Legacy system that um underpins its economic and National Security has to think about all all possible ways that that system could be disrupted even ways that might not be you know currently uh for forecasted on the horizon so I think we are

entering an age of digital disruption where technology acceleration geopolitical competition and geopolitical realignments uh expose the Legacy geoeconomic monitary system to sources of disruption and the us being sort of the uh the underwriter of that Global Security order and the provider of those global Reserve assets right the treasury market is in a position of Legacy strength but also increasing strategic vulnerability so the US government has to recognize that it's plan a might just to double down on the treasury market to ensure uh that it can continue to finance itself under all conditions but it has

to have plann D and the US government I used to ask and help answer these sorts of what if questions for the government which is what if your plan a fails what if there is a uh major geopolitical disruption an attack uh a major economic crisis you have to have a plan that considers all these different downside scenarios and I think it's prent for the government to acquire a Bitcoin position as a long-term hedge against future risks right and it can essentially uh acquire that uh that option now for relatively low cost uh and and

and essentially get the jump on on on Rivals that may uh seek to establish a position uh in in Bitcoin before it and so we're entering into an era where Bitcoin is a j political asset it's just at the sort of initial stages Reserve managers are looking at it s wealth funds are dabbling in it um but it's a nonlinear phenoma right so the US government has to ask that what if question what if Bitcoin were to monetize in a in a in an accelerated fashion to reach some meaningful fraction of gold or even reach

parity with gold or even surpass Gold's value and that would have significant geopolitical uh implications for us power depending on how that happens if it happens in a fashion where our rivals or other sources of power and capital in the world are acquiring Bitcoin and driving its monetization well if we don't have a material position we might uh lose out on a relative basis and so the US government has to think through those what and has to make policy decisions now in the long-term interest of of of of the common welfare right not everyone can

just self-insure by acquiring Bitcoin for themselves uh right now we would hope that everyone could uh have the wherewithal but as we look right most uh bitcoiner most Americans don't own Bitcoin right and so how can America right look out for all of its citizens now and into the future I think acquiring a meaningful position to bitcoin is essentially a moral obligation understood appreciate that um another thing that I'm sure the government is keeping in mind and I'm sure this has to do with something of their apprehension of even adopting strategic reserve of adopting or

of creating this strategic Reserve is this idea that there are essentially two different ways to look at something like Bitcoin you could say it's a competition to the dollar or you could say it's something that's going to bolster the dollar As Trump has been very vocal about what is your opinion do you think the government is a little bit nervous about potentially propping up something just by buying it that could eventually compete with the dollar is just going through people and poers Minds yeah I think it's an it's a misnomer to think that Bitcoin is

a threat to the dollar um if anything Bitcoin is more of a threat to Gold uh as a digital synthetic commodity that uh provides much more i' say Advanced properties when it comes to the sort of auditability security portability and usefulness as a a scarce uh Reserve asset um in a digital uh you know system that is increasingly fragmenting um and so there I think is is is uh you know more of a rival to Gold uh in in that sense um and highly complimentary on the other hand with the US dollar Treasury System right

there's a mechanical link between uh Bitcoin and dollar-based stable coins that has been quite strong and that that mechanical link leads to an increased demand for us treasuries and an expansion of the dollar Network so I think this uh Bitcoin stablecoin Synergy is quite strong and quite powerful and reinforces our our balance sheet on the one hand but also spreads our values right to the extent that Bitcoin we think embodies American values of property rights individual liberty and autonomy freedom from uh uh State censorship and coercion and so the extent that we see Bitcoin win

not only do we see an increase in demand through uh through the stable coin Market into our dollars but we see the expansion of our values around the world and those values are not are not you know are under assault uh in many in many places around the world by um uh authoritarians who want to use digital tools and digital currency as mechanisms of Oppression and um and and censorship and so I think it's a win-win win uh when it comes to bitcoin and US interests okay appreciate that um so the spr has gotten a

lot of attention um on the at the event on Tuesday what other topics do you plan to talk about as they pertinent to bitcoin are you going to be talking about I don't know right to self- custody privacy other things that bitcoiners find very important that are maybe about sort of the personal rights associated with Bitcoin versus is the way America is looking at Bitcoin or conceptualizing using Bitcoin yes um so our so bpi's policy Focus uh and this is enduring throughout the year and and years Beyond it's really broken that say four areas um

first is sort of National Security and and geoeconomics and that's basically the point I just made like the alignment between Bitcoin and uh US National Security interests uh the second is the intersection between Bitcoin uh and the and the Energy System right so we seeing this uh develop over o over several years and I think now we're going to see a proliferation of different uh business models and use cases everything from open source mining home mining to integration with AI high performance data centers uh controllable load Etc and demand response programs so there's a whole

field of sort of policy analysis in regards to bitcoin uh as a uh as a novel sort of energy uh sort of demand um uh a resource there is uh the third is sort of Bitcoin on the global scale like Bitcoin as a um a tool that can be used by anyone a crossborder permission list payment system uh and then as a rail upon which other sorts of Technologies uh can be built right different sorts of stable coins different sorts of assets different sorts of um of decentralized Finance applications uh and then the fourth is

like more our values right how do we think about um this this this ethos that Bitcoin represents uh it's eth it's an ethos of the individual uh but recognizing uh a global a global project um and this is an important you know Dimension upon which the relationship between the state uh and and the individual uh as Society kind of enters into a uh you know an accelerating digital age um you know Bitcoin I think represents uh potential counterbalance to uh centralized oligarchic or oligopolistic uh technology control models that can be used as as instruments of

of State coercion and so I think we want to address all of this right Bitcoin is not one simple thing with one simple sets of policies it's a fulcrum point or a prism through which lots of other um sort of policy issues that are among the most important uh in our in our in our in our current ERA so we're going to be addressing all of those over the course of the year the event next Tuesday obviously we can't touch on all of that right it is a uh it's it's a few hours and we

want to bring together you know key participants key players representing theit the digital assets industry thought leaders um EX excutives folks from traditional Finance folks that are now sort of getting you know into uh the sort of Bitcoin world uh but are coming from maybe more traditional background folks from kind of traditional policy ecosystem inside DC right the think tanks the government agencies folks that have a particular um you know a view on one of those questions whether it's ilicit Finance whether it's uh uh you know sort of energy whether it's um civil liberties and

sort of bring them all into a room and really start to catalyze right it's like kind of you reach critical mass right get a number of people representing all these different disciplines all these different perspectives and then bring the politicians in right the Senators the congressmen and then uh a representative from the White House and and demonstrate one why Bitcoin is strategically important right to the United States along all these different dimensions That We examined why it's a really serious topic to be examined through all these different lenses uh and then make the case for

why it's important for the United States to acquire Bitcoin as I just mentioned and then and then third more getting into like the practicalities of like how should we do it right with last four years Bitcoin and Bitcoin nurs were more on the defensive y now that we're in this position uh where we can potentially Drive positive policy well well what and how right and practically what does that look like what can be done now and over the next you know few years to move the ball forward on all these different dimensions and so we

want to try to get to Brass tax and also develop key relationships where folks that are inside the Bitcoin community and outside the bit Community the Bitcoin Community um can talk to each other and can engage on the details engage on the substance and get to solutions that that that work for everybody [Music] [Music] [Music] I want to talk about the Bitcoin [Music] Revolution never sell your Bitcoin [Applause] [Music] amazing and I know Senator lumus is going to be at the event I think she's a bit of like the guest of honor at the event

um can you give us a preview of some other people who will be there or is that sort of under wraps for the time being so we're expecting to have multiple Senators uh there we're expecting to have multiple congressmen um representing uh both sides of the aisle um uh give announcements uh important uh announcements related to the street Bitcoin Reserve um that will hopefully advance that uh that piece of legislation forward uh demonstrate uh a building momentum uh behind behind that type of legislation and and sort of H you know hopefully kind of catalyze uh

more action on that front Okay I think there'll be some important announcements uh to come uh some so some new voices uh hopefully that will that will go on stage and and articulate um why they think Bitcoin is is is a good thing for America uh and then has some really interesting you know Fireside Chats and panel discussion from folks from the industry and folks from without the industry again have like a different type of conversation right um I think we're going to solve all the problems or all the or resolve all these issues all

in one go I see as a I see it as a starting done right to say let's bring everyone together that has a stake here uh and that that DC is fundamentally a different in a different place and going in a different direction and and how do we ensure that that that's informed by good Bitcoin understanding a good good good policy okay excellent uh very cool excited for it um another thing so the S spr is obviously the Hot Topic with Bitcoin right now but there are going to be other topics that come up related

to privacy being able to use Bitcoin permissionless this was discussed a little bit in the first subcommittee hearing on digital assets which happened I think it was just about a week ago um they you know uh former cftc chair Tim mad was present who I think is the person who classified or under his watch at the cftc Bitcoin was classified as a commodity um there was a lot of talk pockets of stable coins at that conference or at that Committee hearing um and there was also Tim uh you know former chair mad brought up a

lot of issues around potentially illicit Finance privacy the fact that that something like Bitcoin or stable coins are bearer assets how do we sort of find a balance between these things can you give any sort of preview on what sorts of discussions you've had around this technology obviously that people can use permissionless with the need to obviously counterbalance that it will be used in some cases for elicit finance and we do need to have some sort of uh plan in place to combat that what does that look like in your mind based on the conversations

you may have had already yes and the way I think about it there are sort of Three core aspects of Bitcoin that are um very different in terms of how they interface with government policy in in different ways right so Bitcoin the asset right is regulated as a commodity it's treated you know as a financial instrument that's properly reg you know regulated by the cftc that's well that's that's been well established property you know IRS that's kind of relatively um you know anchored right as uh Bitcoin the asset there's Bitcoin the network right which has

this inter interface with say the energy system as we talked about but also has it's a crossb network right so that is how it gets implicated in things like ofac and finsen and the intelligence Community how we think about who's using Bitcoin you know good guys quote unquote and bad guys around the world right and and where does that interface with our um onramps and off-ramps in different jurisdictions and the balance between security and privacy right National and and civil liberties and that's where then the third part of Bitcoin comes in which is the users

the community here like Bitcoin is this technology it's a piece of software it runs on computers around the world but ultimately it's humans that use it that want to use it for certain uh for certain purposes and in democracy right like we have certain expectations of a a space of autonomy and freedom to to to ourselves and we would want those to be respected around the world as well and so we see Bitcoin not just as a technical project but as a potential as a as a as an ethic that is driving to expand the

domain you know like win a new territory for human Freedom right as as as Satoshi said and so the conversations I'd say in DC are are evolving on that subject obviously the S spr is very much weighted on the asset side right is thinking about Bitcoin as digital gold and that's a very important very critical feature of Bitcoin but it's not the only critical and important feature of Bitcoin right an equally important feature of Bitcoin is as a global permission censorship resistant uh you know uh payment system right and and we want to ensure that

uh you know we don't just get the S spr and then the heavy hand of the state comes down on open source developers and the ability for people to permission permissionless use Bitcoin right and so that is a policy focus of ours I think it's an evolving subject because I think there are certain Legacy folks inside those intelligence agencies and law enforcement agencies that never quite could accommodate themselves to to such a thing right and and it was just it just generated a lot of friction right a lot of cases a lot of lawsuits a

lot of you know I think unjustified um assaults on on on individual liberties um along along the way and so I think we're reaching a recognition where that that stance uh isn't productive and it actually self-defeating right um because you can't stop Bitcoin right so the question is how can you balance right it's a matter of balance um right and I think now we can try to push uh very far uh in terms of making sure that there is a large domain right and I think this is what the executive board even said like like

developing opor software shouldn't be a crime right developing you know permissionless uh systems that just run as code right those are not Brokers right like these are these are just new aspects of our society that can exist because of technology and the law needs to catch up with that right trying to you know Force those those those Technologies to meet you know 20th or even 19th century definitions is just going to lead to bad law that's that's ineffective and doesn't actually lead to to good outcom so I think we need a kind of a bottom

up rethinking of how uh you know National Security interests you know can really be uh still um uh to you know met while recognizing that the basic technological Paradigm is changing yep right and and there's gonna be uh you know an adaptation that needs to happen on on on the on on on that side of the Ledger and I think that that adaptation is underway and I think there there's also places where new technology can come in to help with that right so you can do things uh with zero knowledge proofs that can provide you

know measure of of sort of accountability in some sense without without unmasking individual identities right without without revealing um without sort of undermining uh you know sort of fundamental privacy rights um and so I think this is going to be a I like an ongoing uh conversation um and I think to to the extent that the United States adopts a pro Bitcoin policy stance at least from my perspective ppi's perspective that means adopting a Pro Bitcoin uh not just the asset but Pro Bitcoin the network stand Network and where we fundamentally think open crossb systems

uh are aligned with our values and our interests uh directly opposed to the closed authoritarian systems of our Rivals yeah just just like with the open internet just with things like tour yes there's going to be bad people that use these things to do bad things but that doesn't mean the thing is a bad thing right like tour is a useful tool for for human rights right the internet was fundamentally you know an open system that leveraged um our democracy and our open Society to catapult us to leadership uh in that in that new technology

I think we need to adopt the same attitude with Bitcoin appreciate that great parallel um something that you've said in some of your talks you've talked about how policy is nonlinear and so it seems like maybe nothing's happening and then all of the sudden something happens we could almost I don't know think about it like bitcoin's price kind of like a gradually then suddenly thing like um it sort of chops along and then all of a sudden something Happ happen so what are potential trajectories in your mind how quickly can stuff get accomplished can certain

policy be put into action how long might it take what what are sort of maybe some of the pathways that you envision yeah so the quickest thing that would be quite nonlinear would be for the president to sign an executive order establishing a strategic Bitcoin Reserve uh BPI we drafted kind of a notional version of such an executive order um that lays out like a clear uh sort of legal case and an operational implementation that would just require like some diligent review by uh lawyers and uh experts at Treasury Department and some white house uh

you know Council to get the president to assign it um and that you know would not be like the end all be all but uh you know would potentially leverage ex existing authorities and funds in the exchange stabilization fund as authorized by the gold Reserve Act and that could be like a like a zero to one thing right where all of a sudden if everyone on that side agrees this is a good idea they could execute it they could implement it it could be done relatively quickly okay that would you know be perishable though like

like all executive orders are right and so this is where the real um you know uh Catalyst would come from legislation action uh so we're seeing things on that front that are encouraging uh and that's where you do get to this this sort of non nonlinearity right where um you know you had Senator lumus uh really be the lone voice out there pushing her Bitcoin act and I think that may change next week uh and that can generate me you know momentum especially if the president also uh supports it and so look for you know

potential movements on that front I think this is um you know politics in DC is essentially a one-on-one uh process right people individual Senators have to have meetings with their colleagues staffto staff level conversations have to happen they have to understand it they have to feel comfortable with it it has to resonate with their World Views with their um with their policy priorities with their uh needs to represent their constituencies and this was a relatively new idea right it it was announced in Nashville um I think the Legacy sort of policy priorities in the crypto

world uh you know were focused on stable coins and Market structure and they still are certainly I think those are still very much priorities to get across the Finish Line This Congress and I think the SBR concept kind of came in very quickly from left field and is now kind of trying to muscle in and and get political attention um and I think we that's that was a very nonlinear thing like six months ago this concept of an spr was very much like a you know like on the on the on the Whiteboard right as

like an idea maybe right could that happen and now it's a very serious policy issue we could see high level statements come out from the White House um and that could catalyze momentum across across Congress uh again nothing nothing is a done deal but I think you know you you could see things start to snowball um the other thing that's quite nonlinear is just the geopolitical reaction right um you know the president's words have weight uh and these moves could trigger response by other countries and other national leaders that potentially can go quicker than our

Democratic process can right these KS and and Crown princes and and and uh and national leaders can decide uh to move lots of capital if they feel like uh this is now a new regime and they need to uh you know move their countries in a different direction um and so all of those changes could be precipitated by you know not much um and and that's why you know this next six 12 months I think will be very critical to the future of Bitcoin in America right um you know very positive signs very positive um

momentum but the aperture of a of possibility and therefore uncertainty is very wide right and so I think BPI We Exist you know at this particular moment to try to steer towards the towards the most optimal high impact outcomes uh along that distribution of of possibilities uh but nothing's guaranteed um and there's a lot that's that's contingent and a lot that's path dependent um and I want to make sure that uh at least the United States is putting itself and its future citizens in the best possible position appreciate that um just just quickly go back

to one of the words you used there you said an executive order is perishable just to clarify for the listeners so what you mean there is essentially that the next person who comes into Power the next president can overturn that executive order potentially leading to what even a market cell of the Bitcoin that the US government holds what could that be a potential outcome if it if it never actually gets put into leg or gets put through legislation and if it's just an executive order yeah exactly if if uh if if Bitcoin Holdings or Acquisitions

are are are anchored only by executive order then a future White House could uh could reverse it um and even even a current White House could reverse it right um if they decide that for whatever reasons they want to change their policy whereas if you have it in law um it's a congressional program it's Congressional requirement um it's authorized uh uh by Statute and that's you know I mean people can break the law but but it's much harder too uh you know so that's that would be much more enduring basis to um to Shi us

government's relation to bitcoin uh uh you know for the over the long term okay amazing and just to make sure I was sort of interpreting what you said correctly so you could also start with an EO which might be a good thing in that um if we do see sort of uh Game Theory play out if you will in other countries hear the president talk about establishing the S spr um and then they start buying in mass as well starting with the EO might be a good thing legislating after that might be the way to

go just so we're not necessar so we're not um lack of a better term front run to the to buying the Bitcoin and mass for for the state is that what you were saying yes like once the commander-in-chief and the national leadership and Congress have decided this is a good thing to do then the most prudent thing is to establish like a starter position to get the mechanisms in place um and importantly not just the you know you say the Surplus um funds and the exchange uh The Exchange stabilization fund but also conduct a audit

and then collect all the digital assets currently held by the federal government which I believe are much larger than are what currently inventoried you know at least on paper by US Marshall service I think there's a lot of Bitcoin floating around out there and I think so first order of business is for the president to order a uh full accounting of all of those assets and to consolidate those existing assets into one location I think that is like that has to happen immediately in my opinion um and and you know that is a you know

phase one and then phase two is to think about how you can acquire more using EX civilization fund and then phase three is obviously try to trigger that um use that as as as Catalyst and political momentum to to get this across uh in Congress on a bipartisan basis right I think there are folks across the aisle that recognize the you know the alignment between Bitcoin and and their own sort of uh political and strategic interests and so it's not impossible but you have to you have to push that forward right you have to get

a momentum behind it you have to make get people a sense that this is this is a matter of urgency um and so I think that's what the summit tomorrow and what our event on Tuesday is about and a lot of other future work that we're going to be pushing uh is about um without losing sight of these other critical features of Bitcoin right this isn't just about US Government buying Bitcoin like this is about you know making sure that this is not just good for Bitcoin but good for America right and that we want

to see open systems flourish around the world we want to see the ability to access and use these tools uh supported and not constrained uh I think the best way to get to that outcome is when you know the US thinks it's a good thing to do right they're acting as a as as a tailwind and not a headwind for Global adoption NOA appreciate that speaking of the US Marshals who you just brought up I think it was David Bailey who put a $10,000 Bounty out there for someone to figure out who's holding what keys

to what digital assets over there um have you heard anything so I think it was coindesk that published a piece it was uh maybe between 10 and 14 days ago at this point um that seemed that sort of Illustrated that the US Marshals don't tend to know how many digital assets they have which ones they have um which versions of them that they have have some of them Fork do they have the fork versions Etc um have you heard anything about an update on this are people Gathering the keys to these assets coming up with

some sort of legitimate list that we can sort of measure up against when it comes to putting together either a strategic Bitcoin Reserve or if it ends up being a US strategic crypto Reserve something like that as well if we're at least going to start with what we're just holding now and turning that into the Reserve I haven't heard any reaction or any movement in response to that article which was very concerning to me um as a taxpayer as a citizen I don't like to see my government sort of act irresponsibly in in The Possession

and management of billions of dollars of you know my assets totally like you want like forget Bitcoin whether it was you know Ferraris or whatever like whatever whatever you got that you've held in those uh in those uh in those seizures like those should be properly managed in accounted so that was quite a shocking story um and I hope it triggers you know intense scrutiny it's kind of funny or ironic in the era of Doge and you know uh yeah you know you know elon's folks running around I'm like the Doge folks should like take

a look at this right like where is uh where is America's Bitcoin uh who who has control of it how is it properly you know custody uh and secured um I mean that's not in significant some of funds it seems quite irresponsible for a government agency just to kind of throw this into a spreadsheet um totally so uh yeah quite concerning to me uh I don't have any inside information about the uh the response that or or or maybe it's who knows maybe it's misreported I don't know but on on the face of it it's

very concerning um and I and I I hope the incoming leadership uh these at these agencies which are to be honest like they just recently got the like you know got their spots right right and there's lots of other geopolitical and GE economic things happening that that this may not be the top priority but I think I think it should be um you know addressed uh you know imminently um but uh but yeah and I think you know the president could just say like hey where is America's Bitcoin um you say 200,000 but that's just

like a number I don't actually know if we we can point to anything uh you know very very um uh you know very reliably and say yes like okay these are the utxos and this is who holds them this is the custody Arrangement this is the security Arrangement this is the audit yada yada y like we're sort of going off of you know somewhat um I don't know uh weak information and that story you know was concerning to me well it was surely hope hoping for a more comforting response that but I appreciate the honesty

so thank and and hopefully you know we're going to bring it up uh on next Tuesday and hopefully someone brings it up in the summit tomorrow right okay we're gonna talk about you know you know Bitcoin Reserve or even a crypto reserve of some kind it's like hey guys like you know step one is just to like get control of the things you already have um totally and uh you know that's that seems to be like a no-brainer I think everyone should agree with that right like you should you could be completely against the spr

but like want to ensure that we have effective governance and accountability of our of our assets y absolutely um you make a number of good points everything you're saying here resonates deeply with me it seems that you obviously care about Bitcoin all dimensions of it the network the asset and you care about America I think you're a great person to be talking with people in our government um about the importance of both and maybe how one can bolster the other um I think often times though people think about the government and and those who work

for it work in it as monolith something that's very difficult to sort of make change in or within um could you give any sort of insight into maybe some of the conversations you're having maybe outside of someone like senator lumbus who we know is a proponent um what has the educational process been like and what sorts of successes have you had in trying to educate people in government about the importance of Bitcoin yes and uh obviously I've been um you know on the periphery of BPI for a number of years and now I'm jumping in

I see up close but I've seen an evolution in these conversations right um which tends the wax and Wayne with the with the market value right and then obviously with the indous events like FTX so the crypto industry I would say more generally like has had a very fraught kind of reputation inside DC of the last few years you know where a lot of folks were burned a lot of folks were sort of turned off by it were and then and then tuned out right and then now there's a lot more folks now tuning back

in and but with a much more positive veilance right both from the Republican side where it's now clear that you know being pro Bitcoin and pro crypto is a you know core plank of the Republican party but also on the Democratic side I think there's a large uh fraction of of that party that recognizes that the sort of anti- crypto stance the sort of Elizabeth Warren anti crypto Army uh was not helpful you know to them uh and so I think there's a reconfiguration or recalibration by at least some members of that party um to

try to figure out how they can uh you know demonstrate their their Pro Bitcoin Bona feed days while also kind of maintaining a partisan distance from the White House right this is a a difficult Balancing Act Right how to be Pro Bitcoin but also not just kind of you know de facto support everything Trump's G you know trying to do but I think that creates overlap where there can be bipartisan um compromise and bipartisan agreement I think we're seeing this dramatically shift in terms of the interest level right just the for example the request by

my offices to be like hey like do you have a Bitcoin or crypto person that I can hire as a staffer right there's a recognition that um that uh you know they they need to get smart and these folks have to balance lots of of of different um policy issues in their portfolio and you know they recognize okay I don't actually have somebody on my staff that can really you know handle this for me and so there's now a a a rising demand for just policy expertise right and BPI can only provide some of it

right like we're we're we're growing dramatically but but we're still pretty much bandwidth constrained at the moment like we can't meet the demand that we're already seeing come in from these different offices with these different requests we're acting as a kind of a a coordinator to try to share expertise across offices try to facilitate meetings there's now like I think a like a hockey stick uh inflection point of just the level of interest um where some senior Senators right just they haven't really paid much attention to this at all right so they're kind of asking

the basics right so we're at this interesting moment where you know at the same time you know there's going to be the summit you know National leadership coming out basically potentially uh you know pushing in a you direction of a street of Bitcoin reserve and then you have senior Senators some even nonrelevant committees you know trying to like you know get their arms around what the impl what the Strategic implications of this are and then there's lots of other staff across the across the Congress that are also trying to get smart like all at the

same time and so I think we're seeing this this this uh this Title Wave uh start to start to start to build which is very positive in one sense a lot of opportunity but it means like the time is right for like good ID education right and as you can see in these different you know the DC policy ecosystem is is a mixed bag I would say right we saw the announcement from from from Ripple of a National cryptocurrency Association kind of a sort of astr turff organization has like tens of millions of dollars in

its War check right you know that is T tens times the size of BPI right and so it's kind of this um this situation where you know Bitcoin specific policy is is vly um you know over overshadowed by you know lots of other different um activities right so there's a lot of there's a lot of noise and the signal signals potentially um you know not as Amplified so ideally we get to a spot where like you know Bitcoin is uh Bitcoin policy is sort of at least Market weight right inside uh and I think it's

vastly under Market weight um and then that's maybe why you get those sorts of Sunday tweets to you know you know uh as an example um and then it takes work to kind of steer things back in a more of of a Bitcoin focused Direction while recognizing that you know this is a this is a diverse ecosystem and you know matter of you know making sure Bitcoin is represented in proportion to its its importance and its and its uniqueness which is right now it's that's not the case right it's it's it's the almost the inverse

of what you would expect that's what I was going to say so and and all I was at the first press conference that um David Sachs hosted it was a press conference on digital assets and the subcommittee for digital assets and it seems for someone who doesn't understand the technology that well the waters are quite muddy that all digital assets are similar in some ways and that Bitcoin just is is just one of the other digital assets this idea of Market weighting it or it being differentiated or different from the other ones just doesn't from

what I'm understanding what I what I gather it just doesn't seem to be a framework that most people have in their minds do you think maybe six months from now a year from now do you foresee a world where people start at least using phrases like Bitcoin and crypto are we getting there are we moving in that direction or are the waters still quite muddy right now I think we are and I think even if you look at the statements from you know folks that uh are fundamentally I think like multi-coin in their orientation right

major exchanges major investment funds even folks whose bags would be heavily you know pumped if it was a so Reserve I think even those folks are like listen it's very clear Bitcoin is the only thing that belongs in a Bitcoin in a strategic Reserve like it's just these are these are very different things fundamentally and there's different criteria that that only Bitcoin can meet to to set to get into that reserve and so I think there is a recognition on that front I think um I think uh it's just up until now really it hasn't

had that um we haven't had that forcing function to bring those those latent opinions into the four to have it be articulated so explicitly in fact one one of the original rationals uh for coming up with something like Bitcoin for America was to try to provide that Locus point where we can bring folks from across not just Bitcoin industry but the gaset industry more generally folks that that run these big exchanges and have them say and have them all basically say kind of in one voice yeah Bitcoin is special it's not the only thing but

Bitcoin is special and Bitcoin is the only thing that that belongs in a in a strategic Bitcoin in a strategic reserve and that and that merits a strategic level of attention by the United States yes there needs to be a common framework get Market structure make sure that stable coins um can can can can flourish uh with uh with Fair regulation um but we wanted to make sure that there was this opportunity this sort of Bitcoin focused opportunity that we would bring folks that maybe would not traditionally expect uh to to sort of amplify you

know that that signal right I think that signal needs to be Amplified um so I think we're we're we're going in that direction um and uh yeah I don't know like the terminology might you might evolve but I think we're starting to see this now um you know start to start to separate out yeah well that's great and I think there is a lot of power in um not only these people speaking up on their own the wink ofos twins other people who are multi coiners or Pro crypto more broadly uh speaking up on their

own but you're bringing them together to speak up in the same room together I think that that will be an extremely powerful thing for people to witness um and hopefully something that catalyzes change um you know with a lot of people when they learn about Bitcoin they sort of you know they never see the world the same again they sort of understand this new element that we have in the world this new dimension of of money of a of a network um and things change for them and I think we've even seen the same with

politicians um certain politicians you know are seem to be legitimate bitcoiners um when it comes to the educational process do you see legitimate aha moments like oh that's what's going on here and you know is it just that most people haven't had those moments yet so oftentimes what we're maybe attributing to malice is just simply a lack of understanding like I say we as in the Bitcoin Community saying oh these politicians are against us this that maybe not maybe they just haven't had that eye- opening moment do you feel like that might be what's actually

happening here versus more we're going to do everything in our power to stop this yeah I would say there's there's like two two two examples and I can't give their specific names but um one is an example of a congressman that I know is extremely Pro Bitcoin right that would not be but is not was not known to me as being pro Bitcoin before right but they had their own policy priorities representing their constituencies they just happen to be Bitcoin right and so it was like a until the permission structure or the political environment you

know went in a in a direction where they could sort of uh act on that personal belief it just didn't have much like political salience or political relevance and now and so now they can figure out how to you know um you know put themselves in a position to turn their personal beliefs into sort of a public stance and then drive that right and so there's sort of you know maybe the dark matter of bitcoiners right out there but there reflected in legislation or co-sponsorships or whatever yeah so I think now that you see this

larger more like environmental change right where like there's just the the the the weather is different right and so that permission structure is fundamentally different and that a lot of folks that maybe have these latent um views can sort of can sort of take that next uh step and then there's the folks that you know come at uh you know that have a really hard National Security or intelligence background they sit on those relevant committees and they've been in the in Congress for years and years and they've just been getting briefing after briefing after briefing

of Hamas using XY and China using it and hackers using this and so just the the overall you know information diet where Bitcoin or crypto is at all relevant is all associated with bad guys doing bad things totally and so you have to kind of come to them and you know just show them like a whole different set of of of of of of information that just haven't been exposed to really right and you just sort of shift their mindset and sort of broaden how they think about this thing and show them that their concerns

well while significant and merited are are overbalanced by these other very much more positive things right and so I think there's a lot of folks like that that are um you know it's just they haven't you know they're balancing we live and breathe Bitcoin all the time right and bitcoiners it occupies the disproportionate share of our of of our time and attention the average politician the average staffer it is a tiny fraction right and so depending on which committee you're on or or where you sit like even that tiny fraction could be weighted to the

downside in terms of a negative disposition um but on the other hand ites tells me it's you know that's not impossible to change like those attitudes they're not hard a lot of them aren't truly hard baked right some of them are right obviously people that rhetorically back themselves into a certain corner like with Warren um you know those folks again but I think that's relatively a minority right I think most of these other folks haven't really formed very strong opinions right and and and they're open to be convinced and I think you can actually change

people's minds pretty uh like Bitcoin is as interesting phenomena where it's not um it's still a lot a lot of folks haven't yet settled out their their views or their views are just kind of um they're kind of the default views whatever their party or whatever their their sort of millu is um but if you actually engage them you really bring arguments to the table that resonate with their with their interest or their concerns they're open and I've seen that you know first firsthand so that's bullish bullish for BPI at least that's our whole reason

for existence is that that that's true um so I'm talking my book uh to a certain extent um but I think it's born out in practice and I think uh you know not everyone's going to G to flip right not everyone could be orange pilled uh you know um as quickly as some some others but I think the there's the lwh hanging of Fruit by all means has not been plucked okay interesting that's great to hear um I'm going to land the plane here just uh quickly to let the to everyone listening know that uh

we will be streaming um this uh meeting that they're having or the Bitcoin for America event that uh Bitcoin policy Institute is hosting so we'll be streaming that so please tune in um Matt just wanted to you know any final thoughts here anything that people should watch out for in the conference you know any may be sort of a I don't know little heads up on what people should be kind of paying attention to moving forward from here yeah so we're really excited that uh Bitcoin magazine will be live streaming it um well it's also

going to be live stream on Rumble um and the the rumble CEO uh will be a speaker um and then we're going to have um you know hopefully uh you know I'll you know a lot more energy coming out of this event on on our future programs and so this is a an invite only relatively small group maybe 15200 attendees our Bitcoin policy Summit uh which is uh scheduled um uh for the latter part of June uh check that out I think June 25th um that uh is also Invitational but we're going to expand that

to to at least six 700 maybe even a thousand attendees um so if you weren't able to get uh you know into this particular event this was you know very small um unfortunately we we couldn't accommodate everyone that that requested invite uh the Bitcoin policy Summit uh we would love to have you there um and then more generally we are always looking for smart bitcoiners who want to engage in policy um whether that's informally you just want to like support our work whether it's you want to you know retweet us on on on on X

uh or whether you want to engage with us as a fellow of some kind you have a professional expertise whether it's in energy or human rights or national security we're always we're always in lookout for really smart bitcoiners who want to engage seriously uh in the hard work of policy um uh and uh and yeah so support of work and and being the look out I think we're GNA be do some really interesting things this year oh well one other shout out um you know really excited to be doing a partnership with uh with hubke

uh so we're g be opening up a physical office downtown in DC uh you know opening date you know full operating capability is sort of TBD but sometime over the summer uh we'll have centi a Bitcoin Embassy established in the heart of DC uh where we'll be able to do full full sort of programming events uh bring DC to bitcoin and and Bitcoin to DC and sort of plant the flag um in the nation's capital there so once that's up and running it would be you know a great spot for bitcoiners if they're coming in

DC to drop by and uh and and hang out so really excited uh you know Good Vibes right sort of all around I think the Vibes are are are are really positive and um yeah I really appreciate everyone's support and and reach out if you want to get involved amazing so I get plenty of emails and DMS from people saying how can I get more involved you just heard what Matt said there please please uh you know act on that Matt uh thank you so much for your time here thank you for the work that

you do with BPI thank you for having the conversations that you do with stakeholders with people in government uh it's all really important we sincerely appreciate it we're very much looking forward to Tuesday I know I'll be there in person and we're looking forward to streaming it thank you for your time today and we will talk soon