Have you heard the term Zuckaissance? Uh. No, what is- Zuckaissance!
You haven't heard that? No, no. It's Zuck's renaissance.
Huh. What is this? You know, you've got this new look, the chains, the shearling jacket.
Everything you do seems to become a meme. At least make them good memes. Right, well, it seems like you're leaning in on the joke more.
And I think as I've gotten older, I've just like, "All right, whatever. It doesn't matter," right? It's like, just kind of try to be myself as much as I feel comfortable being.
Woohoo! Mark Zuckerberg, the face of Facebook, has been under the bright lights for 20 years, on the offensive, buying Instagram, WhatsApp, and Oculus, and the defensive, battling a never-ending cascade of criticisms about the social, political, and business impacts of his expanding empire. Lately, though, Zuckerberg appears to be reinventing himself and his company.
Meta's latest push is a major play to open-source AI in contrast to closed-source competitors like OpenAI and Google. Zuckerberg predicts his company's newest AI models will have a profound impact on the progress of technology, business, and maybe the world. I've come to Meta HQ to get a glimpse of the real Zuck and the AI future he believes is the path forward.
So, I found an article in "The Harvard Crimson" going back to 2003 where you were talking about open source. Okay. Like over 20 years ago.
Really? So, you've been thinking about this a really long time. Well, yeah.
It's a big part of the tech industry. I mean, you wouldn't have been able to build the early version of Facebook without that. You know, I was a student.
I didn't have access to a lot of capital. There's the whole kind of hacker mentality of you, like, just take the code, use it for the thing that you need to. It's more cost efficient.
And I mean, that's how you can start something like this in a dorm room. Some people see you as an unlikely champion of open source today. You're laughing.
Well, I don't know why. I mean, I actually think, well, I get it, but, yeah. You understand the word unlikely.
Yeah. We've actually, at Meta, have been pretty big proponents of open source for a while and it's been a really good formula for us. So, dating back to how we designed servers, how we design our data centers, we have this whole Open Compute Project that kinda standardized a lot of the infrastructure for the industry.
And that's gonna happen with AI too. You're really putting a stake in the ground by open sourcing your AI in this attempt to build the AI rails for the future. How much of this is a strategic way to control or own the next technology wave?
A lot of how we've grown up over the last 10 or 15 years was building our apps through phone platforms that our competitors controlled. So, it's somewhat soul crushing to, like, go and build something that you think is gonna be good and then just get told by Apple that you can't ship it because they want to, like, put us in a box because they view us as competitive. You know, we're a big enough company now that one of the things that I've resolved is that for the next generation of technology, I want us to build and have more control over the next set of platforms that we're gonna build.
So, I think AI is a critical one, and I think augmented and virtual reality is another critical one. It's kind of the way that we can control our own destiny on this and make sure that we have access to leading AI is by building it and having it become an industry standard, but it actually gets stronger by being able to share it and have the ecosystem around it. You're continuing to improve Meta AI across all of your products, but also as a standalone chatbot.
Why should we use Meta over ChatGPT? Well, there's a bunch of things where it's better. You know, one of the things that we're rolling out soon is the ability to just, like, imagine stuff.
You're typing something in real time, I do this with my daughters all the time, and as you're kind of typing and entering the query, it's just generating the images as you enter the keystrokes. It's just really cool. My goal for the Meta AI launch, which, I mean, it's only really, you know, a few months old at this point, was to, by the end of the year, have Meta AI be the most used AI assistant in the world, and I think we're basically on track for that.
I mean, there's hundreds of millions of people who are using it. By the end of this year? Yeah, and I think we're gonna be there before the end of the year.
So, you're releasing Llama 3. 1, this family of models big and small, including the biggest open-source model ever, 405 billion parameters. Yeah, yeah.
What does that jump unlock? I actually think the main thing that people are gonna do, especially because it's open source, is use it as a teacher to train smaller models that they use in different applications. If you just think about, like, all the startups out there or all the enterprises or even governments that are trying to do different things, they probably all need to, at some level, build custom models for what they're doing.
And it's really hard to do that with closed systems out there, whether that's Open AI or Gemini, Google's thing or whatever. And this is like, gets to a pretty core part of our philosophy is we don't believe there's gonna be, like, one AI to rule them all. Our vision is that there's going to be millions or just billions of different models out there.
So, not one God, but many, is that the way to think about it? Well, I don't think they're gonna be Gods, but I do think that to some degree, if you're like an organization, you think you're gonna create, like, this one super intelligence, it does have this feel to me of, like, people trying to create a God. And that's just, I find that both the wrong way to look at it, but just also very unappealing.
You know, there's almost 200 million creators on our platforms. They all are trying to build their community. People wanna interact with them.
There aren't enough hours in the day. Like, I wanna make it so that every single one of them can easily train, like, an AI version of themselves that they can, like, they can make it what they want. So, it's almost like a kind of artistic artifact that they're putting out there for their community that allows their community to interact with them, but also gives them control over how that interaction happens.
And I think that that's gonna be great and there's gonna be millions or, you know, eventually hundreds of millions of those. So, let's get into the broader strategy and how this is all going to work. Like, will we have AI-generated influencers with AI-generated captions and avatars talking to avatars?
Like- Yeah, I think we'll have all of it. Do you wanna create the first AI-generated social network? Well, I think that that will be part of this, but, you know, actually one of the most interesting use cases that people have for Meta AI today, it's like in the top four use cases, is role playing difficult social interactions that they're gonna have.
So, whether it's in a professional context, like, okay, you wanna ask your manager for a raise, or, like, I'm having this hard conversation with my girlfriend or my friend. Like- I could have roleplayed this conversation with you today. I mean, hopefully it's not- No, it's fine.
I mean, like, hopefully it's not stressful for you, but- It's super fine. But, like, it's a clear social tool where there's no judgment, right? The AI isn't sitting there, there's no, like, social repercussion for what you ask it.
But what evidence do you have that people wanna live in this virtual world and socialize with avatars, or that it's actually good for us? Well, I think that people wanna connect with each other, right? I actually think, like, all the other stuff is generally noise.
But all the technology allows you to do that in a better and better way. When I got started with Facebook, it was mostly text. And then this whole, there's been this whole kind of, like, technological evolution where we got smartphones that we could primarily be taking photos and then the mobile networks got good, so then you could be kinda sharing videos and video's a lot richer and consuming video is a better experience.
I just don't think that's the end of the line. I think it gets more immersive. You renamed your company Meta.
You're still pouring billions of dollars into the Metaverse. Are we as far along as you thought we'd be, you know, a few years down the line? Are there any lessons in the urgency of the pivot?
Well, a lot of the reason why I did that is because I think we were getting kind of pigeonholed as just this, like, social media app company. The Metaverse thing was always gonna be a very long-term thing. I think some things have gone better than I thought.
Some have gone slower. The glasses I think is probably the best example of something that is going better. They're stylish.
They're good glasses. It's a great form factor for AI. We didn't know that AI was gonna be a thing when we started working on that project, or I mean, we thought it was gonna be a thing, like, 10 years from now, but if you asked me five years ago, I would've guessed that AR would come before AI, not the other direction.
So, some of this is just about kind of setting yourselves up to ride the different waves when they come in. Sequoia calls AI the $600-billion question. There's all this investment in chips and the infrastructure and the data centers, but when does it start paying off?
Like, is it a bubble? And if not, like, when do you start seeing the money? I think bubbles are interesting because a lot of the bubbles ended up being things that were very valuable over time and it's just more of a question of timing, like you're asking, right?
Even the dot com bubble, you know, it's like there's all this fiber laid and it ended up being super valuable, but it just wasn't as valuable as quickly as people thought. So, is that gonna happen here? I don't know.
I mean, it's hard to predict what's gonna happen in the next few years. I think AI is gonna be very fundamental. I think that there's a meaningful chance that a lot of the companies are overbuilding now and that you look back and you're like, "Oh, we maybe all spent some number of billions of dollars more than we had to.
" But on the flip side, I actually think all the companies that are investing are making a rational decision because the downside of being behind is that you're out of position for, like, the most important technology for the next 10 to 15 years. You said your goal is getting to artificial general intelligence? Yeah.
Or AGI. How do you define AGI, and do you get there first? Yeah, no, well, it's a good question.
We're basically already starting to work on Llama 4 and our goal is to completely close the gap with all the others on that. So, I don't know. I mean, do we get to AGI first?
I mean, I think that there'll probably be some breakthroughs between now and then. It's hard to just predict in a straight line. Then you get to the more complicated question, which is like, what is it?
I don't know that there's, like, one specific definition for this, 'cause I think intelligence is, it's multi-variate, right? It's not like there's one number that is your intelligence. So, there's probably a specific aspect of intelligence or modality which is like reading people's faces and emotions and that's something that I care about.
So, I think we'll probably try to build that in at some point. You know, what we're trying to help enable the whole community to do is create all these different AIs for all these things that people want to do. And I don't know, that's kind of how I think this ends up being a good thing for the world.
This place is so peaceful. Yeah, I mean, we just love being out in nature. Is this like your escape, your oasis from the real world, from your virtual world- From the real world.
And your virtual world? I don't know. I like being in Palo Alto and out there too, but it's just kind of nice to spend time up here over the summer and, you know, get the kids out on the lake and teach them some different sports and I think that that's all nice.
What should kids be studying these days? I think the most important thing is just, like, learning how to think critically and learning values when you're young. Now, one of our daughters is super creative.
I mean, she wrote this outline for a novel that she wanted to write and now it's like 40 pages in and, you know, we sit and, you know, when we hang out with her, we'll use Meta AI to generate the images. Like, it's about mermaid crystals is her novel and it's, yeah. I know a few kids who would like to read that.
Yeah, no, I think it's, you know, it's probably gonna be a banger. I mean, this is somewhat of a hiring philosophy that I have too. You know, if people have shown that they can go deep and do one thing really well, then they've probably gained experience in, like, the art of learning something and taking it to an excellent level, which is generally pretty applicable to other things.
You go all in on everything you do, it seems like. How do you make time for it all, the sports, the side quest, the super engaged CEO, to being a dad? I actually think having balance between the different things that you do helps make you do all the things better.
I think I'm a pretty intense person and- Just kind of. I try to have some mercy on the people I work with and not focus too much energy on any one project, you know, 'cause, you know, I wanna make sure that people have the flexibility and space to go do their thing. So, yeah, no, I think that that's part of, like, being, you know, an interesting and well-rounded person and learning, is like you want to have different experiences.
Got it? Nice, Mark. I know you've always been fascinated by China and you learned to speak Mandarin and what do you know about where China is on AI and AGI?
I don't personally know a ton. There's this question which is how should the US approach kind of AI competition with China? And there's one strain of thought which is like, "Okay, well, we need to, like, lock it all down.
" And I just happen to think that that's really wrong because the US thrives on just kind of open and decentralized innovation. I mean, that's the way our economy works. That's, like, how we build awesome stuff.
But I think the leading companies should work with the US government and make sure that our kind of national defense and things like that have sort of a perpetual first mover advantage on the leading technology in the world. So, we win the AI wars this way. I think there, there's the question of what can you hope to achieve?
If you're trying to say, "Okay, should the US try to be five or 10 years ahead of China? " I just don't know if that's a reasonable goal. So, I'm not sure if you can maintain that.
But what I do think is a reasonable goal is maintaining a perpetual, you know, six-month to, you know, eight-month lead by making sure that the American companies and the American folks working on this continue producing the best AI systems. And I think if the US can maintain that advantage over time, that's just a very big advantage. There are obviously a lot of players.
What do you make of Sam Altman's leadership? He deserves a lot of credit for how that organization has developed. Also, having gotten a lot of public scrutiny myself, I think it's like, look, when you're going through it for the first time, you don't handle it, you know, as perfectly as you would like.
But I think he's handling it very gracefully. I think he's doing better than I did. And it's a somewhat ironic thing to have an organization that's named OpenAI but is sort of the leader in building closed AI models.
And it's not necessarily bad, but it's kind of a little funny. Facebook and you have been blamed for a lot of things. Whether you agree or not, why should we trust you with AI?
Well, it's a loaded question. We have gotten blamed for a lot of things. And I mean, look, I take our role in all this stuff seriously and I think we've tried to handle all this as well as possible.
I'm not sure that it's all been fair, but, like, I'd like to think that we're an important and relevant company. So, I think the scrutiny is generally healthy. One of the defining things around open source is that anyone can scrutinize the work.
And because of that, I think it just puts a lot of pressure to make sure that the quality of the work that you're doing gets better really quickly. I wanna talk about the 2024 presidential election. Okay.
Facebook has been a flashpoint in many elections around the world and you personally have been called out most recently by former President Trump. This is a big election. What do you think is at stake?
Well, I mean, look, it's obviously a very important and it'll be a historic election. The main thing that I hear from people is that they actually wanna see less political content on our services because they come to our services to connect with people. So, you know, that's what we're gonna do.
We give people control over this, but we're generally trying to recommend less political content. So, I think you're gonna see our services play less of a role in this election than they have in the past. I've done some stuff personally in the past.
I'm not planning on doing that this time, and that includes, you know, not endorsing either of the candidates. Now, look, I mean, there's obviously a lot of crazy stuff going on in the world. I mean, seeing Donald Trump get up after getting shot in the face and pump his fist in the air with the American flag is one of the most badass things I've ever seen in my life.
But, look, I mean, it's, you know, as, and I think, look, at some level, as an American, it's, like, hard to not get kind of emotional about that spirit and that fight and I think that's why a lot of people like the guy. But I view our role here is to make it so that everyone can express their views on this stuff and I think that that's probably the best role that we can play. We're facing a crisis in mental health, especially among teenagers.
The Surgeon General is now calling for a warning label on social media, saying that it's partially to blame. With everything that you know now, does he have a point? There's clearly an issue with mental health in the country.
So, I think that's like a really important thing. And for kids and teens, it's especially important and I think the focus on that is right. You know, I have three young girls and being a parent is hard and, like, you care, like, you just wanna make sure that they have, like, good lives.
And so, like, from that perspective, what I aim for us to do is build our services in a way that's aligned with parents, giving them the controls that they need to basically oversee how the services work for their kids. What the data says today is a little bit different from what the basic meme is that's out there. I think a lot of people kind of act as if there's been this proven connection between these and I just don't think that the science supports that today.
It might be that kind of phones have an issue, right? If you're getting kind of, if you're getting notified for something or it's buzzing you and it's, like, preventing you from sleeping. I mean, that is different from social media.
But, look, I mean, there are clearly issues here across society and we want to make sure we're part of the solution to that. Mm-hm. You're doing all these things to make us more virtual, but you also love so many things about the real world.
Yeah, yeah. How do you wrestle with those two ambitions? Well, I don't know that they're at odds.
I don't know. There's, like, a bunch of people in the tech community who think, like, "Oh, we'll just, like, separate out our consciousness and intelligence and, like, upload it to the cloud," and I'm like, "That just sounds ridiculous to me. " I mean, to me it's like, like, I think part of what makes you a person is you, like, are active and you have energy, right?
Like, we're not just minds, right? Like, I think the kind of the energy and, like, the love and all those things are, like, probably as foundational to what makes you a person. You're gonna teach me how to wake surf.
I heard you're a surfer and you're from Hawaii. No, no, no, I'm from Hawaii and I have surfed before. Great.
But I'm not a surfer. Okay. I hear you're a surfer.
Yeah, Priscilla's quite good. I'm really glad Priscilla's here because I hear she puts you in your place. Yeah.
Oh, yeah, a little, a little. Look, it's good. It's good.
What's Mark's best dad joke? So, like, sometimes when Mark has a fail with the kids, he'll just say like, "Not my best work. Yeah.
"Not my best work. " That's just like a thing he says. No, when I'm braiding Max's hair every day.
You braid hair? Yeah, I braid Max's hair and I'm like, "Oh, you know," it's like, "I think I did well tonight," or it's like, "Oh, this is not my best work. " But now the kids will grade him and go- Yeah, so it's like- "Dad, not your best work.
" What's it been like for you being in a relationship with all of this, like, for so long? I think being in nature and, like, doing sports is, like, so important, especially for Mark. Mark has so much energy.
He needs to burn off energy every single day. How do you keep up? I mean, how does anyone keep up?
Well, I don't. It's fine. He can do his own thing.
Well, Mark's supposed to teach me, so I said that- Let's do it. How successful I am depends on how good of a teacher he is. Exactly.
So, a surf wave, the waves come from behind you. This is coming a little bit from the side. So, the force, it kind of pushes you in that direction.
Okay. So, you can lean in to the wave more than you would on a normal surf. Don't worry about that part.
Yeah, it'll actually, it'll be pretty easy. Your body will know what to do once you get up. That's our coaching.
That's our family sports motto. Your body knows what to do. Your body knows what to do.
All right, I'm ready to rip. Ready to rock. Ready, Alohi?
Let the board flip. Yeah, oh, she's so close! She'll get there.
This is the part when people are like, "Are you sure this sport is fun? " I mean, she's managing that. She's fine.
That's 30 seconds. I mean, Alohi, are you doing this differently for her than you are for us? Uh, no.
Your body knows what to do, Mark. Yeah, my body does know what to do. All right, go for it.
Makes it look so easy. Woohoo! Woo!
Yeah, there you go. What do I do now? Now point the nose in here.
Oh. You've been at this for 20 years. How long do you wanna keep doing this?
Like, you have all this. Surfing is fun. Fighting is fun.
Building things is really fun. At this point, you know, I kind of think about what I'm building in terms of like, you know, like, in 10 or 15-year chapters. I think, like, AI is gonna take 10 or 15 years to fully materialize as will all the work in the next computing platforms that we're doing.
And then my guess is that over that period of time, the next set of things will emerge. With tech in general, bigger picture, it almost seems like we're running this massive experiment on ourselves. Like, how does it all end?
I mean, I'm not sure that there's, like, an end point. I just think that there's a broader arc here. So, you know, I know that there's a lot of people who are concerned, like, is AI going to, you know, like, prevent us from being creative or things like that?
I think it's gonna be the opposite. You know, when I was getting started with my company, you know, I needed to know all this stuff about coding in order to be able to build the idea that I had. And in the future, you may not even need to.
You might just be able to, like, you know, express what you're trying to build and an AI system will be able to help you with the code and all of that. Obviously there's all these challenges that we'll need to navigate along the way. You know, stuff changes and that raises new challenges.
But I'm pretty optimistic about that kind of grand arc here. So, I have an idea about how to protect us. I brought you some sunscreen.
This is, like, about the amount of sunscreen that I need. So, I appreciate that.
