Ep 283 | Alma 53-63, Come Follow Me 2024 (August 19-25)

hey everybody Welcome to talking scripture a podcast where we illustrate relevance and application of the scriptures in come follow me we also dive into the history and cultures of the text thanks for taking the time to share and subscribe to this podcast for show notes head over to our website talk inscript [Music] toorgle to Talking scripture I'm Mike and I'm Bryce and today we're going to be in Alma 53 through 63 this second part of the war chapters which means we are turning our attention to the strippling Warriors and they are a symbol of all

of us if we do what they did then our preservation in our war will be as miraculous as their preservation in their war in the midst of your war with Lucifer especially when everything seems to be falling apart have hope because if you do what the stripping warriors did then you will be as preserved in your fight as they were in theirs in the latter days in the battle against Lucifer if the Youth of this church do not step up and join the battle the church will not Prevail and I think the the Brethren and

the Lord have been doing that from the very beginning if you look at what we do for the Youth of this church and you look at what we spend in seminary programs and Institute programs and youth activities if you ask any Bishop where does the bulk of your budget go they'll say the Youth of this church are this Church's priority and they ought to be I believe we can say with confidence like Helman said when the battle was over he said it is to these young men it is they who won the victory I truly

believe that the day will come when we will be able that we will all say it is to the Youth of the church that we owe this great Victory it kind of reminds me of the Battle of Britain when we had these 17-year-old kids and there were just a few hundred of them fighting off the German air force and the Germans didn't know how many of the Brits had and these 17-year-old kids in Planes held off Germany long enough for America to enter the theater of war and it's in a book called seven miracles that

saved the world and it's one of these Miracles and it's by Chris Stewart such a great chapter I remember reading just talking about it I get chills talking about this like the freedom of the world is hanging in the hands of these kids teenagers it's just it's a fascinating it's going to happen again the church will succeed because the youth step forward and it has been my honor to just have a front row seat and to watch those youth and what they do now that being said we're going to focus how all of us are

strippling warriors so let's make a list how do you become a modern day strippling Warrior so we'll start in chapter 53 Alma 53 we get a little bit of a background about their fathers their parents and how Moroni is struggling because of the foolishness of the Nephites they've opened the front door to the lamanites and now the lamanites possess these fortified cities that the Nephites built for themselves and earning back your own fortified city is hard it is much better in our personal lives to never lose them to have to win them back and hence

president Benson said it's better to prepare and prevent than to repair and repent but that being said morona is in trouble and everyone knows it and they're talking about it and the anti-i lihis know it and so they begin to question maybe we should go back on our covenant and maybe we should join this cause because would it be better to break our covenants than to have the L the Nephites lose the war and then we all lose our lives I like the verse verse 13 in Alma 53 it says they saw the afflictions and

the tribulations which the Nephites bore for them and they were moved with compassion and were desirous to take up arms in the defense of their country so they've made this Covenant with God and yet they're like oh but I go I can't watch it my my Patriots die I can't do it and I love Helman where he's just like verse 15 ah I don't know if that's the right choice guys and this is an interesting verse of these tensions and these religious feelings and your feelings for your brethren it goes back to our point last

week that righteousness is more important than armaments and I think Helman says yes having more soldiers would be beneficial but keeping our covenants will put us in a better position to win the war righteousness is far more important than armaments so you keep your C but then I love verse 16 as it just turns and says but behold it came to pass that they had many sons and that's where the Heron my neck stands up every single time they had many sons who had not entered into the Covenant and they now here's number one if

you want to be a modern day stripping Warrior I think there's something buried in verse 16 that is absolutely critical to understand they did assemble themselves together I like that it seems like it's not they're not being told by their parents are they that makes the biggest difference in the worlds doesn't it Mike a willing participant think about that a young man who says I choose to go on a mission I'm going on a mission because it's my choice versus well my parents are kind of putting some pressure on me or my family's tradition it

makes a huge difference it's got to be their idea it has to be cuz otherwise In the Heat of the battle they're not going to have the determination that they need and so I would ask all of us when is it going to be your idea one of my favorite words in the Book of Mormon and I've said this in previous podcast is where Nephi says I glory in my Jesus I love that word it's not the Savior it's my savior it's that Personal Touch I know him and I love him and I think we

we all ought to ask at what point does this become your church at what point is it your book we grow up no knowing that it's Mom and Dad's church and it's Mom and Dad's book and for a while that's okay but at what point is it your church and your book and your Redeemer there was a wonderful little moment in Spencer W Kimble's life he grew up in Thatcher Arizona he his dad had been sent down to settle the church there and one time he was in the General Store and he heard two older

men talking about the Mormon Church obviously these were non-mormons who didn't like the fact that the Mormons were coming to town and settling there and they were saying don't worry the Mormon church is going to fall apart Mormon church is going to die and that obviously must have peaked up young Spencer W Kimble's ears and the other one you know the one voice said well what how is that and he said well you just wait because the first generation of Mormons they were fired up they were all zealots it was it was the new religion

and of course they were going to be faithful the second generation are the children of those people and they were born into homes of faith and then the guy said but wait till the the third generation comes around the fire will have dwindled and the flame will have gone out and the church will fall apart and Spencer W Kimble that day clenched his fists pounded the table realized that he was a third generation Mormon and said not me and I would suggest that that day he became a stripping Warrior the day it's your decision you

know I had a a lot of moments like that as a youth it wasn't one thing but I remember distinctly having a fellow sit down with me and I was friends with one of his children and he said to me you can't be friends with my child because you're not Christian and he sat down and proceeded to tell me what I believed and I gave him a book of Mormon and I was 15 what did I know Bryce you know but I had it all highlighted up and I said you know if you read this

book and think I don't believe in Jesus I do now I may not know what you know cuz he was a grown man and I was just a kid I didn't win the argument at least you know I didn't hang out with his his child anymore but for me that was the moment where I was like that was the Mike day moment when he clenched his fist and pounded the table and said Lord I'm in yeah I had a friend once say to my brother my younger brother he said you don't really believe in what

your religion teaches and my brother said why and he says well you're going to go on a mission your parents are going to pay for it and my brother is the kind of guy where if you tell him he can't do it he does it and he paid for every cent of his mission and he showed the statement to this fellow and said I'm paying for the whole thing and anybody who knows my brother knows that's just he's all in right and I think sometimes these little oppositions are what motivate us to to decide you

know am I going to make this choice and I think that is so much better than constantly waffling back and forth and I think it's kind of a waste if you're constantly waffling is it true is it not true and these guys are all in but their kids who haven't made the Covenant they become all in in the defense of their people yeah it's so they were all in by burying their swords and their sons were all in by picking them up and fighting and however you do it whatever the moment that you say I'm

in Lord you've got me you can depend on me I am joining the team that's the moment you become a strippling warrior I think that's criteria number one it has to be your decision I think if you're a regular listener to the podcast you see where I am on this where there's always evidence on both sides of spiritual arguments and I believe that's so essential we have to choose and it's not a thing of compulsion it it just can't be and so I just want to say this I feel it's so important faith is a

choice yeah so there's number one now once they're in these are a bunch of kids they are young and they don't know what to do but their heart's in the right place so the next thing is they have to have a leader now verse 19 they choose a leader and it's interesting to point out who they didn't choose they did not choose a military man they did not choose Moroni they didn't choose tanam they chose a man with very little military experience remember in the Pinnacle of the what kind of leader was helan what kind

of military mind was helan remember that one moment where the lamanites are chasing them and they pause and they don't know if Antipas is caught up to them they don't know if it's a trap and here's the moment for Helman to make a critical strategic decision and he turns to them and says what do you want to do and I just I don't see that this man is a brilliant military mind and that's okay because do you know what he is he's a prophet I think step number two in being a strippling warrior is you

choose to follow the prophet the moment you say Lord I'm in and I choose to follow the prophet what the prophet tells me to do I will do we all have to choose a leader I just love this they pick him they assemble themselves they're not being Act upon these are active young people and they have evidence not to choose heum and I would imagine some of their parents may have been a little nervous sending them into the battle led by Helman who had no war experience sometimes people look at the prophet and say well

he's old he's out of touch he's inexperienced and yeah he may be old but he's a prophet and that compensates for everything else because he will get direction from the Lord you have to say I'm in and I deliberately choose choose to follow the prophet anyone who does that is on their way to being preserved in this battle miraculously I choose to follow the prophet so number one it's got to be your decision number two you choose to follow the prophet and then number three is in Elma 57: 21 yay and they did obey and

observe to perform every word of command with exactness now I know we we can take that to an extreme and you know there are zealots in the church who push everything to an extreme and I don't know think it's trying to to say that same thing but the idea here is you make the conscious choice to follow a prophet and then when a prophet commands something even in those moments where you don't understand you obey you're committed to obeying I love the fact that in section 21 the Lord said we have to receive the words

of the Prophet as if they came from the Lord in all patience and faith there will always be a need to have patience and faith when prophets give Commandments I wonder how many soldiers receive a command in Wartime that they don't understand that doesn't make sense to them because it's big picture it's strategic and yet that's the key there is know who your leader is and then do what your leader commands even in those moments where it requires patience and faith you are committed to obeying your leader and I in and that's how you succeed

that's how you succeed in war and that's how you succeed in the B and I think here in in this military context this probably has some Nuance here that we're not totally aware of and even today we should obey with exactness but I also believe we should follow in patience and faith and it's good to try to understand the theological reasons and implications and as a parent how many times have you had this question Bryce why yeah and we we as parents need to be able to have those discussions as to the why and I

think with our youth when they see the why then you have the Buy in but in in a military context you might get an order and there's not a lot of time for discussion especially with the the way it's hierarchical you just obey your superiors but in religious things today I'm a big fan of hey let's talk about the reasons why and one of my favorite things is to talk about it and beat it up but at the end of the day I say well we got to do it yeah I'm not really sure all

the reasons but you know what what what am I going to choose who am I going to follow when Noah says get on the boat and there's not a cloud in the sky yeah you can debate it you can discuss it all you want but the reality is it's going to take a leap of Faith it's going to take patience and faith for you to step on that boat when there's not a cloud in the sky to leave zarahemla when there's no Fire And yet when the clouds do appear it's too late you can't get

on the boat and so that's becomes a major theme of the book of Mormon and here it is again choose to follow a prophet and then in those moments you give him your strict obedience you obey with patience and faith and with exactness and then look at the end of the verse I love this they're tiing into their parents let's talk about if you want to be a stripping Warrior what relationship do you have with your parents those who raised you those who taught you I love verse 21 we're back in 57:21 and this was

according to their faith and I did remember the words that they said unto me that their mothers had taught them strippling Warriors have that unique relationship in their youth with their parents and in their their adulthood they have it with authority figures this is in contrast to the kingmen who are going to question everything everything that their leaders do a strippling warrior doesn't question everything that their leaders do they were taught by their mothers it was that trust it was that faith if you'll go back to chapter 56 verse 47 and 48 they did think

more upon the liberty of their fathers than they did upon their lives they had been taught by their mothers that if they did not doubt God would deliver them and they rehearsed unto me the words of their mothers so what's interesting is you if you look at those last couple the relationship the stripping Warriors had with the prophet and the relationship they had with their parents now you can be an adult and still have that relationship I love since we're in 56 I love the relationship that the prophet has with the strippling Warriors starting in

verse 10 my 2,000 Sons verse 17 sons of mine 27 2,000 Sons verse 30 my little son son 39 my little Sons verse 44 my sons verse 46 my sons do you see how prophets feel about members of the church and then how do they feel about the prophet verse 46 is the moment what do you want to do do you want to turn around and face the lamanites at the risk of our own lives or do you want to keep running what do you want to do and they respond in verse 46 father that's

the kind of relationship a a modern-day strippling Warrior has with with the prophet it's that love it's that fatherly figure it's that connection I think these relationships ground us when we have an understanding and a relationship and we acknowledge Authority whether it's the prophet or our parents that gives us a rock to stand on and think about what the adversary wants to do he wants to take away that rock he wants to take away that foundation and he's the master of Chaos in the Old Testament it's called Toho and bohoo unor organized chaos and Yahweh

Jehovah is the opposite he takes unorganized chaos and says I'm going to breathe into it the breath of life I'm going to organize it and I can't help but comment on our current climate today we live in a world where clearly the adversary is trying to take away all semblance of order now he's not replacing it with anything he doesn't care all he wants to do is just throw chaos in there and these strippling Warriors in the fog of War are acknowledging the authority of a prophet acknowledging the authority of their mothers and they're willing

to lay their lives at risk to keep the chaos at Bay and I just find this as a type this is our day isn't it it is it is and so have that relationship with the prophet have that relationship with the people in your lives the authority figures and then in verse 20 I I am fascinated by this one other than the word young the very first adjective the very first word to describe the strippling warrior years is courage and of all the attributes that the youth and that members of the church need in the

climate in which we live we need courage we have to be able to be courageous now very short quick rendition of pilot Jesus is interviewed by pilate pilate knows he's innocent now what is the moral duty of a government figure who is interviewed an accused prisoner and finds that he's completely innocent of all charges you set him free but pilate has this nagging inside of him because if he if he does what's right he's going to be very unpopular in order to be popular he has to do something that he knows is not right and

pilate chooses to compromise John Adams said this he said the art of politics is finding the middle and I think Pilot's solution was I'm going to Scourge him and make him unrecognizable but I'm not going to kill him and he thought that'll do I'm going to find the middle ground he tried many times he said I'll I'll condemn him and then release him but they wanted barabus I'll send him to Herod and Herod sent him back it's just that compromise I'll do something that is a little wrong but more popular because if I do what's

right I'm have to be very unpopular and if anything is screaming out for a quality that's going to distinguish a modern-day stripping Warrior it's the ability to say I don't care about being popular I will do what is right and that's what I love about the of all the words to describe the Stripling Warriors I'm so grateful that the first one other than them being young was that they had courage in contrast to pilate they says I I would rather be right than popular I love um president Thomas S Monson said the following about courage

courage becomes a living and an attractive virtue when it is regarded not only as a willingness to die manfully but as a determination to live decently a moral coward is one who is afraid to do what he thinks is right right because others will disapprove or laugh now think back to lehi's dream and the people in the building and you can see why we need courage today courage is required to be a modern-day strippling Warrior I think today everything's on the table I mean there's conflict about everything uh whether it's gender or family or you

name it and I call this the fog of war the fog of war is this idea that I don't know how many guys my enemy has I don't know where even my other armed Associates are the fog of war is something that's just constantly everywhere and so in order to get through the fog of War we have to understand where the authority Lies We have to understand who's in charge and we have to be wise in this case we we're going to have later a prophet who's going to get Revelation as to where to go

so much happens in real time and war that we simply don't know or understand one of the classic examples of of this is in World War II Hitler made a non-aggression pact with Stalin and he promised hey don't attack me and I won't attack you well he ended up breaking his agreement and on June 22nd 1941 he sent troops into Russia and he told his people that Russia was the aggressor to me that's so fascinating that during the time of war and I think we live in this time today that there's just lies everywhere and

how are we going to know the truth and I think that's where we're back to what Bryce talked about the importance of a prophet to me it's just so fascinating how how lies and the fog of war is such a prevalent thing that's happening today and there's a great author by the name of Andy Andrews and he wrote a book called How do you kill 11 million people and he asks how leaders are able to perpetuate horrible acts against their own people and so you could put all kinds of people in this narrative you could

put Herod you know look at all the horrible things he did to his people zemna or amachi I found Andy andrews's message to be so thought-provoking he says only a clear understanding of the answer to this question how do you kill 11 million people and the awareness of an involved populace can prevent history from continuing to repeat itself as it already has time and again to be absolutely clear the method a government employs in order to do the actual killing is not in question we already know the variety of tools used to accomplish mass murder

neither do we need to consider the mindset of those deranged enough to conceive and carry out a Slaughter of Innocence history has provided ample documentation a of the Damage Done to societies but what we need to understand is how 11 million people allow themselves to be killed obviously that's an oversimplification but think with me here if a single terrorist begins to shoot automatic weapons in a movie theater containing 300 people the lone Gman couldn't possibly kill all 300 why because once the shooting started most of the crowd would run take off or hide or fight

so why for month after month and year after year did millions of intelligent human beings guarded by relatively few Nazi soldiers willingly load their families into tens of thousands of cattle cars to be transported by rail to one of the many death camps scattered throughout Europe how can a condemned group of people headed for the gas chamber be compelled to act in such a doile manner the answer is breathtakingly simple and it is a method still being used by some people today how do you kill 11 million people you lie to them that's it according

to the testimony provided under oath by Witnesses at the nberg trials in 1946 the act of transporting the Jews to death camps posed a particular challenge for the man who had been named operational manager of the genocide Adolf Eman known as the master ikan went about the task as if he were the president of a corporation he set goals he recruited staff and he monitored the progress success was rewarded failure was punished how did he do it an intricate Web of Lies to be delivered in stages was designed to ensure the cooperation of The Condemned

but unknowing Jews first the fences were erected encircling neighborhoods ikan or his representations met with Jewish leaders to assure them that the physical restrictions were placed in their Community were temporary as long as they cooperated he told them no harm would come to them second bribes were taken from the Jews in the promise of better living conditions the bribes convinced the Jews that the situation was indeed temporary finally ikan would appear before a gathering of the entire ghetto accompanied by an Entourage of no more than maybe 30 local men and officers of his own mainly

unarmed officers he addressed the crowd in a strong clear voice according to sworn statements these were likely his very words Jews at last it can be reported you that the Russians are advancing on our Eastern Front I apologize for the Hasty way we brought you into our protection unfortunately there was little time to explain you have nothing to worry about we only want what's best for you you will leave here shortly and be sent to very fine places indeed you will work there your wives will stay at home and your children will go to school

you will have wonderful lives we will all be terribly crowded on these trains but don't worry the journey is short Men Please keep your families together and board the rail cars in an orderly manner quickly now my friends we must hurry the Jewish husbands and fathers were relieved by the explanation and comforted by the fact that they there weren't any more armed soldiers they helped their families into the cars the containers designed designed to transport eight cows were packed with a minimum of 100 human beings and quickly padlocked at that moment they were lost the

trains rarely stopped until well inside the gates of oswit or Bic or sador or trinka a line drawn up by the German Ministry in 1967 names more than 1,000 concentration camps and sub camps accessible by rail the Jewish virtual library says it is estimated that the Nazis established 15,000 camps in the occupied territories and that is how you kill 11 million people you lie to them these chapters in Alma show me that one thing constantly in the fog of war with all the chaos that we've been talking about we have to have ground that we

can stand on and my testimony is that the prophets and the scriptures for me specifically The Book of Mormon give me ground where I can get my bearings and I love that I love that idea that the strippling Warriors knew where the authority was they chose helan as their leader they chose and they were loyal to him obeyed with exactness and then they were courageous in the coming chapter in Helman chapter 5 in such a symbolic moment Nephi and Lehi will be in a prison and then there will be overshadowed by Darkness now listen very

carefully to this verse this is Helman 536 it came to pass that he turned him about and behold he saw through the cloud of Darkness the faces of Nephi and Lehi I testify that no matter how thick the darkness the face of the Prophet will always shine through the darkness no matter where you are no matter what's going on no matter the war you're in the face of the Prophet will shine through the darkness grab that light and Obey it exactly and don't be afraid courage is that act of holding on to what you know

is right so let's add to our list so notice back in chapter 53:2 after it mentions that they were courageous the very next two go hand inand they were exceedingly Valiant for courage and also for strength and activity but behold this was not all they were men who were true and I would balance those they were very active in their religion and true to it and I would suggest those are two vital qualities because I think we all know people who are active but not true and sometimes you meet someone who is true but not

actively engaged in it and here the stripping Warriors are actively engaged now think about what that means in terms of Temple attendance or scripture attendance can you think of people who are true to the gospel but are not actively engaged in Temple attendance or scripture study think about this like they know what they know but they know why they know in other words they're thoughtful Latter-Day Saints they're true but this is my interpretation of this right they're true but they've thought it out and maybe that's just kind of how I approach it loyalty is important

boy K Packer said this a man who says he will sustain the president of the church or the general authorities but can't sustain his own Bishop is deceiving himself he's not true but he may be really active and may have all kinds of ideas and thoughts and and that's a fascinating thing so I like that right they're they're loyal but they're also active they're something verse 21 adds another one they were men of Truth and soberness and that word soberness is intriguing it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with drunkenness it seems to me that

they were mature they were beyond their years they took serious things that were supposed to be serious they knew when to laugh but they knew when not to laugh they were balanced and that could be rare in a young man very rare in a young person who knows when to be serious and when not to they were men of soberness so that's a beautiful list let's jump to chapter 56 so in the next two chapters it's Moroni and the exchange of prisoners and then in chapter 56 is where the the stripping Warriors face their battle

now you remember the lamanites have taken possession of the Fortified nephite cities so getting them out is a tricky So the plan is to run the stripping Warriors in front of the largest fortified City in hopes that the lonite Army will come out and chase them and then Antipas and his army is going to follow them up and then the strippling Warriors can turn around and then they can get the lamanites from both sides and it's working great cuz as soon as the strippling Warriors pull in front of them sure enough the lamanites come out

but then after a while they stop and they don't know the strippling Warriors don't know a if they've stopped because Antipas caught up to them if so we need to turn around and help Antipas or have they stopped because they figured out our plan and it's a trap they've stopped so that we turn around and then they can Slaughter us and then turn around and face Antipas without the strippling Warriors and there's that moment here's the moment of hesitation and what I love talking about the fog of war in that moment of hesitation they don't

hesitate and it's a matter of Faith they they hold on to the promises they hold on to faith and so verse 44 what say ye my sons will you go to battle and now I say unto you my beloved brother Moroni that never had I seen so great courage yay not amongst all the Nephites for as I had ever called them my sons they were all very young even so they said unto me Father Behold our God is with us and he will not suffer that we should fall then let us go forth we would

not slay our Brethren if they would let us alone therefore let us go lest they should overpower the army of Antipas and they had not never had fought yet they did not fear death why they did think more upon the liberty of their fathers than they did upon their lives yay and now we come back to they had been taught by their mothers that if they did not doubt God would deliver them and they rehearsed unto me the words of their mother saying we do not doubt our mothers knew it I just got to say

you mothers out there I don't think you realize the influence you have especially when it comes to Faith so vital it was my mother's faith that I held on to for most of my childhood same it was just my mother's faith and it gives me an anchor faith is the art of holding on to what you know is true in that defining moment when fear Rises up do you remember when Peter jumps out of the boat now Jesus had approached him and said and Jes and Peter said Lord if it be thou bid me come

into thee on the water and Jesus said come now Peter knew what that meant Peter was asking can I come out and be on the water and Jesus just said come so how many experiences had Peter had with Jesus that this was possible so did Peter test the water of of course not he jumped out full of faith and then the storm and he took his eyes off the Savior and he focused on the storm and that's what we do faith is the art of holding on in that critical moment this is the moment and

I'm going to hold on to the promises I'm going to hold on to what I know is true I'm going to hold on to Elma 444 that God will keep and support and preserve us as long as we are faithful unto him even at this dark moment where I don't don't see how we could possibly survive this battle and so these young men were men of faith and they'd been taught faith and they held on to faith and so they fought and they fought valiantly and when it was over chapter 57 is the continuation of

this letter verse 20 of 57 as the remainder of our army were about to give way before the lamanites behold these 2,60 were firm and undaunted there's another great quality firm and undaunted they did obey and observe to obey perform every word with exactness and then verse 22 because of that because of these qualities because they followed a prophet because they obeyed with exactness because they were courageous because they were true and active firm and undaunted and they held to their faith it was these my son and those men who had been selected to convey

the prisoners to whom we owe this great Victory now he starts adding them up verse 25 he doesn't expect very many of them to have survived and I don't think they expected to survive they probably expected to die in this battle but if they could hold off enough for Antipas to do his job then it would have been worth it so when he starts numbering them verse 25 it came to pass that there were 200 out of my 260 who had fainted because of the loss of blood so each they took their wounds nevertheless according

to the good good of God and to our great astonishment and also the joy of our whole Army there was not one soul of them that did perish and now verse 26 and now their preservation was astonishing to our whole Army yay that they should be spared while there were a thousand of our Brethren seasoned military nephite Warriors who died a thousand nephite Warriors died but not a single strippling Warrior and the strippling Warriors fought valiantly they didn't hide in the back they fought valiantly their preservation was astonishing and we do justly ascribe it to

the miraculous power of God because of their exceedingly Faith this is Mormon waving his arms and saying you latterday saints that live in the middle of this war the culmination of the war that began in premortal life and you're going to fight the end battles and you're going to see loss all around you and you will be outnumbered and outmanned but if you will do what these Stripling warriors did your preservation will be as miraculous as was theirs and that is my testimony anyone any latterday saint who will do what the stripping warriors did will

be as miraculously preserved in our battle as were they and that I think is one of the great messages of the war chapters and of the Book of Mormon so just to summarize what have we talked about it has to be your idea when is he going to be your savior when is this your church when is The Book of Mormon your book are you going to assemble yourself together are you going to choose to follow a prophet and be exact when he commands when he talks about Word of Wisdom issues will you be exact

and say I'm in the middle of war and he's given me a instructions and man it doesn't make sense because I look around no one else seems to be obeying him but this is my moment I am going to choose to follow him exactly in this moment because he considers you like a son or a daughter we need to have that relationship we need to be courageous active true firm undaunted we need to hold on to faith when that dark moment arrives and if we do those things it is my testimony it is the book

of Mormon's witness that we will be preserved in our battle that's awesome I want to geek out just for a minute on something that's just a really minor thing but I think it's to me it's really interesting so the age of these kids like how old are they now we don't know but if you go to Elma 16 verse one it talks about that was the 11th year of the reign of the judges and what happens in Alma 16 that's when ammona is destroyed well it's destroyed right around the time that the converts of Ammon

come unto Jesus and and they bury their swords deep in the earth why does this matter well if you go to the 56th chapter of Alma look what it says behold here is one thing in which we have great joy for behold in the 20 and6 year iil did March at the head of the 200 young men so 15 years later after they make this Covenant to bury their weapons he marches with this Army now think about this if the children of the people that made this Covenant were too young to know what they were

doing if they were just maybe a year or two or 3 years old they would be right around 18 at the time Helman leads the armies if they were born after they made the Covenant they were probably 14 15 years old and so you know it depends on who you read but I really think a good estimate of their ages would be around 15 or 16 and it's laid out right there in the text now if you're Joseph Smith and you're just making up the Book of Mormon you've got to have it be internally consistent

so you've got to make sure you get those details in there to me that would just be a headache to kind Circle through all that while you're trying to create a text in the time that he does and so I just use this as once again a feather in the cap of the restoration to say that the Book of Mormon is internally consistent and it also helps us to Envision the ages of these young guys and just to geek out on Lord of the Rings really quick if you've seen the film the second film The

Two Towers there's this scene where they're at Helms Deep and the Orcs are outside and they've lost the first and second wall and they're about to breach and come in to the final part of the war but there's this one scene before that happens where the leaders are giving swords to kids and I remember watching that scene looking into their eyes imagine you're a 15-year-old kid you've never even held a sword the fear that you would have thinking I'm going to go against these trained seasoned Warriors these are not 15-year-old kids you're fighting you're fighting

men and I like to tease my teenage boys there's a difference between strong and old man strong isn't there Bryce yeah yeah just it's fun to arm wrestle you're 15year old or 16y old that think are so strong and then old man strong kicks in and so my point is like really personalize this and just think in a real setting like this is a real thing this is a miracle Beyond miracles to think that these 15 16 year-old kids are doing this is fascinating so I I just like that as just a short geek out

moment now there's also tension in the Book of Mormon like what do you do with a group of people who don't fight and we have two groups in the Book of Mormon don't we Bryce that won't fight we have the kingmen on one hand and we have the anti- Nephi Lehi on the other both groups won't fight to defend the Nephites but they're not treated the same nor do they have the same reason for not fighting the kingmen won't fight because they want the kneights to fail they want to just wreck everything now their at

least these guys have a replacement their replacement is hey we're going to put a king in charge but we want to burn it to the ground to have our way and the anti- Nephi leites I love that verse where it says that they were moved with compassion they supported the the war effort in other ways but they didn't go and fight and I think that that shows that the Book of Mormon is nuanced and that it shows that it's not a on siiz fits-all war is so nuanced and so the reason why they wouldn't fight

is to me more important than that they wouldn't fight and it reminds me of of a Young Man by the name of Desmond Doss and Desmond Doss was a fellow who went to World War II and he fought in the Pacific Theater and he is in a 2004 documentary called the conscientious objector and it focuses on his experience with the American forces as a combat medic and he would not carry a weapon and fire on the enemy as a 7th Day Adventist Christian refusing to carry a firearm he became the first conscientious objector to be

awarded with the Medal of Honor for his service above and beyond the Call of Duty during the Battle of okanawa he saved so many American lives in the midst of great conflict but he didn't fire on the enemy and it just reminds me of the idea that these antii leites they didn't want to destroy the nephite culture the nephite nation but they just were so adamantly opposed to violence because of their past that they made this Covenant and I love that the Book of Mormon shows this Nuance of the text it's not a one size

fits all and so that's why I really appreciate that the United States military recognized Desmond Doss here was a fellow who didn't draw a weapon in defense of his country but he still resisted you know he resisted the the forces that were attacking us but at the same time he held true to his principles in Elma 48:14 it says that the Nephites were taught to defend themselves against their enemies even to the shedding of blood but then it says if it were necessary but then notice what it says they were taught never to give the

the first offense and never to raise the sword except it were against an enemy except it were to preserve their lives so moronai always is about defensive Warfare not offensive warfare that's kind of who he is and that's kind of the principle of the Book of Mormon don't be involved in an offensive battle this is for defense only against their enemies now the overall principle is the end of verse 16 of Elma 48 where it says resist iniquity take a stand and always resist iniquity but notice the Nuance here sometimes if it were necessary they're

shedding of blood but sometimes they're told to prepare for war and sometimes they're told to flee and then sometimes they defend themselves there are so many places in the Book of Mormon where they take territory without the shedding of blood and Captain morona is always seeking a way to not shed blood now well when should we go to war what have prophets said probably the most used quote on warfare is going to be the statement by David oay where he says there's basically two conditions he says there are two conditions which may justify a truly

Christian man to enter mind you I say enter not begin a war so right there he starts at the beginning hey we're not here to start wars but number one an attempt to dominate and to deprive another of his free agency I think what he's saying there is if someone is trying to dominate another then we need to defend that person or ourselves and the second one he says is loyalty to his country perhaps there's a third defense of a weak nation that is being unjustly crushed by a strong ruthless one Paramount among these reasons

of course is the defense of man's Freedom an attempt to rob a man of his free agency caused dissension even in heaven to deprive an intelligent human being of his free agency is to commit the crime of the ages so fundamental in man's Eternal progress is his inherent right to choose that the Lord would defend it even at the price of War without freedom of thought freedom of choice freedom of action within lawful bounds man cannot progress the greatest responsibility of the state is to guard the lives and protect the property and rights of its

citizens and if the state is obligated to protect its citizens from lawlessness within its boundaries it is equally obligated to protect them from Lawless encroachments from without whether the attacking criminals be individuals or nations and so I really like that quote by President McKay and it really defines the principle another quote has to do do with what is critical and it's by President Kimble and one of the things that goes against our cultural expectations especially in the west and I would say especially in the United States of America and as a person who grew up

during the arms race I saw this growing up thinking you know how many weapons do we need how many missiles and I remember hearing this quote by President Kimble and it kind of goes counter to military philosophy or military design and it's this idea of the armament are not as critical as righteousness and president Kimble really lays this out and he gives some really interesting historical examples to really back up what he's saying that walls don't provide security he says the Great Wall of China with its 1500 miles of unbreakable walls with its innumerable Watchmen

Towers it was breached by the treachery of men and then he talks about the magino lion in France these forts thought to be so strong and impassible were violated as though they were not there Str strength is not in concrete and reinforcing steel and protection is not in walls or mountains or Cliffs yet foolish men still lean on the arm of Flesh and then he talks about the walls of Babylon which were taken over by Cyrus he says this the walls of Babylon were too high to be scaled too thick to be broken too strong

to be crumbled but not too deep to be undermined when the human element failed when the protectors sleep and the leaders are incapacitated with banqueting and drunkenness and immorality and invading enemy can turn a river from its course and enter through a riverbed there was a river that kind of ran through this tunnel and they they did the the Persian army diverted the water and just went in under the walls and then he talks about the walls of Jerusalem he says the high walls of Jerusalem deflected for a Time the arrows and Spears of the

enemies the catapults and the fire Brands but even then wickedness did not lessen and Men did not learn their lessons hunger scaled the walls thirst broke down the gates immorality cannibalism idolatry and godlessness stalked about till destruction came a couple times the high hills of Jerusalem and the walls failed them once in in Nephi's day and then once after Jesus's day and in both cases you you lay Siege long enough and the people run out of food and then president Kimble says this experience is a dear teacher but fools will learn by no other but

we continue on in our godlessness he says while bombs are detonated and tested and Fallout settles the already sick world we continue in idolatry and adultery while corridors are threatened and concessions made we live riotously and divorce and marry in Cycles like the seasons while leaders quarrel and editors write and authorities analyze and prognosticate we break the Sabbath as though no command had ever been given while enemies filter into our nation and subvert us and intimidate us and soften us we continue with our destructive thinking well it won't Happ happen here will we ever turn

holy to God fear envelops the world which could be at peace in God is protection safety and peace and he has said I will fight your battles but his commitment is always on condition of our faithfulness men depend on armaments as on Idols oh foolish men who think to protect the world with armaments battleships and space equipment when only righteousness is needed the answer to all of our problems personal National and International has been given to us many times by many prophets ancient and modern why must we gravel in the earth when we could be

climbing towards heaven the path is not obscure Perhaps it is too simple for us to see we look to foreign programs Summit conferences and land bases we depend on forts or gods of stone or ships and plains and projectiles our gods of iron Gods which have no ears no eyes and no heads we pray to them for deliverance and depend upon them for our protection that's present Kimble now while he says that and I totally agree and I do believe that righteousness is critical these men in these War chapters still had to have weapons but

all the weapons in the world are not going to save them if they're not allied with God and so to me unity and righteousness is critical weapons are important but what is critical is that they're righteous okay from this we're going to segue we're going to go to who Moroni was Alma 48:1 was a strong and mighty man he was a man of perfect understanding yay a man that did not Delight in Bloodshed who sold the joy and Liberty in the freedom of his country and his Brethren from bondage and slavery and so Bryce it

seems like on one hand he's all about freedom and liberty almost like you know willing to pick up the sword and fight but yet on the other side it says he did not Delight in Bloodshed almost making him like nonviolent like a Quaker so which is it well you see this with every single gospel principle I love the fact that the scriptures refer to the Plan of Salvation as a straight and narrow path we're on a path to the Celestial Kingdom so how many ways can you fall off a path there are two edges and

Satan doesn't care which Edge he gets you off as long as he gets you off yeah Satan doesn't care which side as long as he gets you off the path so in almost every scenario there's two opposites or there's two balancing principles so for example you can interpret the word of wisdom too strictly or you could interpret the word of wisdom too Loosely and we've all seen people that do you can do too much or you can do too little you can offer too much Mercy or too much Justice you can be too kind or

not kind enough and the idea here is Latter-Day Saints have to find a way to balance in that circumstance what is the right thing to do and so when it says he was a man of perfect understanding what I think it's trying to say is he knew when to grab have the sword and fight for liberty and he knew when to say uh-uh I will not take this person's life so he's not shy to have a strategy to go defend righteousness but take what he's going to do with the prisoners he does not have to

kill the guards and so he doesn't and so in every scenario you kind of have to pick is in this scenario am I going to lean on this side or am I going to lean on that side and there's so many different ones that face Latter-Day Saints right now for example on the question of gay marriage there's tolerance and then there's truth there is a time to teach truth and standards but there's also a time to be tolerant and latterday Saints have to understand in that scenario what would a man of perfect understanding do is

this a scenario where I would be more truthful and here's the expectation and here's what latterday Saints believe or is this a scenario where for example I would be more tolerant um with our own children we can be just or we can be merciful and uh we've all seen that for example with one child who does the exact same thing as another child you might be more merciful in that circumstance because of that situation versus in this situation I'm going to be a little bit more just and so the key here is balance and so

one of the great questions Mike asked is how how do you maintain balance and may I suggest that that is the role of the Holy Ghost I like that that is exactly why we get the Holy Ghost we quote that wonderful scripture that says if you'll get the Holy Ghost he'll tell you all things that you should do he'll tell you how to balance the situation he'll help you know when to be wise when to be merciful when to be just when to do more than you should and when to do less than you normally

do and all of those things he is the great balancer when you said wise it reminds me of that verse that the Saints are to be wise as serpents that's an odd phrase right how are serpents wise well you think about it if I strike too soon I'm going to miss the prey and then I go hungry if I strike too late the prey is gone and I go hungry the serpent has to know that exact moment the right moment to strike and the same thing applies to the Servants of the lord we have to

know when do we say I need to do more here or I need to do less here we need to be wise as serpents and I I love that Moroni in one moment says I will not hesitate to defend my country even into the shedding of blood but then in another moment he says I don't have to shed this blood so we're not going to and he found that beautiful balance between sometimes opposite and I think that idea of being wise as Serpent and harmless as doves I really like that Moroni when he could spare

life he did he he found opportunities to spare them and then he even found opportunities to let them be integrated into their society we shared that verse earlier where some of the prisoners decided they wanted to convert to the Nephi religion and they were set free that's beautiful I really like that idea of him being a man of perfect understanding that it's the spirit which will prompt us to know okay now we we got to we got to speak up which puts the onus on us doesn't it Bryce we have to be listening to know

what to do and how to do that and I think that also takes practice right and back when you remember when King Benjamin said see that you do these things in wisdom and Order and I think that's the plea that the Lord says look if you always do the same thing in every situation you're going to do something wrong um I I often use this example I I asked latterday Saints do you hunt and fish on Sunday and most latterday Saints would say no I don't I don't I don't consider that in keeping with Sabbath

standards I don't hunt and fish on Sunday and then I ask is there a circumstance in which you would hunt and fish on Sunday and consider it a righteous act and they say of course I can think of a circumstance in which I believe the Lord would direct me to hunt and fish on Sunday I said so the point is is you have to do the right thing for that circumstance and the only way we know how to do that is if we're led by a Divine assistant to say in this circumstance do the right

thing go hunt and fish on Sunday I would never paint my house on the Sabbath day but if I have a neighbor who's shipping out to the military uh at 6:00 in the morning and he's frantically trying to get his house ready and the one thing he hasn't had time to do is paint his house then guess where I'm going to be on the Sabbath day hey I'm going to be painting his house and I'm going to consider that the right thing to do so Latter-Day Saints have to understand that we are governed by principles

Joseph said I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves but that means we have to have the wisdom to know in this circumstance I'm going to do this even though in another circumstance I would not do that and that's what it means to be a man of perfect understanding is to know how to balance those different principles I like that Elma 5455 is the two chapters which are really breaking down the prisoner exchange amon's taking women and children prisoners and Moroni he's taking just armed men and so it really breaks down kind of their

philosophies on what a prisoner is and Amron basically says yeah we'll give you a a woman for one of our guys or a child for one of our guys and and morona is like that's not going to play out to me these two chapters are just illustrating the differences in their approach also makes the point you brought this war to us and so I'm fighting a defensive War Mike day packaging in these chapters is I think food is scarce I think it's expensive to feed these Layon nightes and Moroni doesn't want to show his hand

to Amon and so he uses a lot of Brave speech but I really think if you and I were there watching moronai we can see morona is probably stressed out he's like I only have so much food I don't want to feed these prisoners anymore let's get this thing done let's get this war finished and frankly is outnumbered and so I think this is expediency 101 yeah just one quick thought I I think one of the things these War chapters are doing is they're trying to say make sure you're on the right team cuz sometimes

in the latter days we fight for the wrong team we get caught up in Satan's team and we're we're tempted by one of Satan's techniques and we end up fighting a little bit on Satan's team and I think one of the things these two chapters do is say let's make sure you're on the right team look at the kind of leaders that Satan has on his team and look at the kind of leaders that God has on his team and make sure you're on the right team because Satan doesn't care one wit about you amaron

does not care one wit about this these prisoners he uses them as tools to accomplish his bigger goal and that is to drink moroni's blood but Moroni you can just see the tenderness in his heart not just for the prisoners but lonite prisoners and guards and and I just think this is a way to wave our hands and say you know make sure you're fighting on the right team because the world is tempting and Satan's philosophies can be izing but once you take a look at the kind of leaders that fight on that team it

helps you walk away and say no no no I not going to be on amon's team I'm just not I will not fight for that team yeah I really like this quote by Abraham Lincoln where he said you know he was pacing the floor wondering who would be the Victor during the Civil War north or south and his secretary said to him Mr Lincoln I hope the Lord is on our side and then Lincoln turned and said I hope that we're on the Lord's Side instead of wondering and hoping that the Lords on our side

let's ask oursel that question so in the 55th chapter it's just a great story of how the lonite guards are they get them drunk the Nephites do and they free them there's also a sub store or a subplot in this text which we talked about earlier way back in the podcast with second E55 and some others but they have to go and find a lonite and they have to search says that he's searching for his guys to find a lonite so they go trick the guards and to me this is what I call the shth

moment in other words the lonite nephite distinction was not based on the pigmentation of their skin rather it was a cultural distinction both religious and political and the way you could tell lonite was how they politically faced and religiously faced but then also their speech who can say shth or who can speak the way that these people speak so that you can fool them if it was a pigmentation issue then this chapter makes zero sense and so go back and listen to our podcast on 2855 if you want more details on that but essentially they

get a guy who can speak to these guards and they trick them they get him drunk and it's just a great story I remember as a teenager reading this going man this Moroni he's pretty crafty okay so then you get to helan writes a letter and he's like man we're doing so good the stribbling Warriors are awesome and the Lord has blessed us so much but there's this undercurrent This Thread where helman's like man it would really help if we had some reinforcements we're kind of low on food and so then we get to this

letter where finally Moroni r to payor look at the end of 59 where it says morona was angry with the government because of their indifference they're just they're lacking supplies and so the 60th chapter is where he basically says and he's got some strong words in here where he says pin we are suffering that's verse three and you know what we wouldn't complain but we're just getting wrecked we really need help and then look at verse 7 can you think to sit upon your Thrones in a state of thoughtless stuper while your enemies are spreading

the work of Death Around you yay while they are murdering thousands of your brethren now my take on verse 7 at the end of their word it says there's a difference between the work of death and murdering and what I think is happening I think they're doing Human Sacrifice I think there's one sense of killing in war but murdering is a different level and so I think there's some of that undercurrent of human sacrifice and it's kind of been softened in the translation of the text and so he's like we've got to put a stop

to this and he's so upset with payor and he says it again in verse 11 do you think that you could sit upon your Thrones because of the exceeding goodness of God and that you could do nothing and he would deliver you and so it's this strong rhetoric of like what are you going to do are you just going to sit there and sometimes you got to talk like that to get stuff done now the thing is Moroni doesn't know this but pin is helpless and so this is another way to illustrate this idea of

what do we do when we're communicating with someone and we just don't have the whole story and what if you're the person that's being spoken to in such harsh language how do you respond and it reminds me of that talk by President Hinkley he said this so many times when he was the president of the church where he said part of being a Latter-Day Saint is we should return evil with good and I thought how can I apply that in personal relationships or what if I'm in a position where I make a decision people don't

like and they come at me how am I going to respond and I watched pres hinley as he interacted with the media and sometimes they would throw some really mean questions at him and he didn't seem to get his feathers ruffled he just seemed to be like okay I I can take that question and he was a master wasn't he BR said handling that stuff yes and I take you back to last week's podcast where we talked about when is conflict Justified and if you do it the Lord's way you'll get the Lord's help and

one of the rules of conflict being justified is you cannot be guilty of the second offense it is human nature when someone bades us and just tears us down like morona tore down P horin it's natural to turn right around and say you idiot or you fool and we return evil for evil but the Lord's way is to just say no I'm not going to be guilty of the second offense and so payor doesn't do that and one of the great letters is pin's letter back to Moroni and he says in verse 9 and I

just love this man in your epistle you have censured me oh that was a subtle way of saying it he had done more than censured him he'd ripped him to shreds in your epistle you have censured me but it matterthe you rejoice in the greatness of your heart and oh my goodness is that a lesson for all of us to say wait a minute can I see this from their perspective if I were Moroni and I thought the chief judge were being negligent I would want that very reaction how can I get angry at this

man when he was reacting in a way that he should have reacted had the circumstances been what he thought they were and that's the person who says I've just been hurt by you but can I pause and jump into into your thoughts and say why would you do that to me and help me see why you possibly would do that it helps us be kinder and more forgiving when we pause and we consider the circumstances and so I love that he says it matter not I am not angry I do rejoice in the greatness of

your heart now let me give you some information that you don't have so that we can correct this situation but man what a lesson to all of us when someone does evil to us that we not return it back back that we pause and say why why would they be saying that and we see the greatness of their heart and not get caught up in the censure of their words that takes a lot of emotional maturity it does I got to tell you I'm still Bryce I'm gonna be honest with you I'm still on my

journey to learn how to do this but I think of all the places where this can happen it's in those really important relationships and so let this be an invitation to us with those relationships to cultivate a nurturing environment and when you you are censured find a way to just pause take a breath and see the greatness of their heart yeah I'm going to go back to one quick verse back in 60 in moroni's letter to pin and taking us back to last week where we talked about lesson from the war chapters and that the

Nephites had all power over the lamanites until they did two stupid things they the same tupid stupid things we do so if you didn't hear last week's podcast I'd encourage you to go back but just as a confirmation I want to point this out in the text he writes to pay hor in verse 16 this is Alma 616 had it not been for the war which broke out among ourselves yay were it not for these kingmen who caused so much Bloodshed among ourselves yay at a time we were contending among ourselves if we had United

our strength as we hitherto have done we would have succeeded in other words the reason we are now fighting this war is because we fought amongst ourselves so I just take that back as just a reminder of last week that it was the contentions and the dissensions of the Nephites that opened the front door and if there's a lesson to be learned it's that when we contend among ourselves and descend away from those who lead us we open the door to the end and we to March right back in and then once the enemy has

possession of our fortified cities it's so much harder to win them back you know this is so applicable today there's so much more in the war chapters but we will stop there we're going to just end and next time we get together we're going to be in healan I can't believe we're actually going to be in heilman so we thank you for listening and uh we hope that these things we've talked about in the war chapters are relevant in your life and that we can take some of these principles and apply them and do better

and be better with that we will see you next week talking scripture is not an official production of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the opinions expressed in this podcast are Mike and Rice's opinions only we refer you to official Church sources and the church website to clarify any doctrinal questions