If You Want To BUILD SEXUAL DESIRE In A Relationship WATCH THIS! | Esther Perel & Lewis Howes

welcome back everyone to the school of greatness podcast I'm very excited about our guest today thank you so much for being here Esther Perell it's pleasure uh you've got an amazing book called mating in captivity unlocking erotic intelligence and uh so make sure everyone go and check out this book we'll have it linked up at the end of the show notes as well I became aware of you before Summit Series I remember hearing about this book and who you were but I never really dove into your work until Summit series happened um which is a

conference for essentially inspiring entrepreneurs and people looking to take over the world in their own industry I call it the mixture of Ted Davos and burning man there you go yes exactly that type of people that type of crowd and uh you spoke you were supposed to speak at like a little tiny restaurant uh on this cruise ship and I remember going to this and like just the line outside we couldn't even get in so I remember experiencing that being like oh I hope she you know talks again and then you talked like four more

times s and so I showed up early for like one of the the few ones after that and it took like an hour for you to start because there was like thousands of people out waiting to try to get in this one session and so I said okay there's something here this conversation about relationships sex desire love intimacy um erotic intelligence what you call and there's something here that we're struggling with in our society today and especially with driven passionate entrepreneurs who are always up to the next big big thing a next shiny object and

so I'm glad that you were able to come in here and be in the studio in LA and thank you for being here and and the first question I want to ask before we actually get into all of these juicy relationship questions is who was the most influential person growing up for you in your childhood and what was the thing that influenced you about them oo the most I never have won for these kind of questions well what's one that maybe comes to mind someone who was really influential and a lesson they taught you I

will start with the most close person um I would say my father uhhuh um why uh my father was illiterate okay my father and my mother actually both of them came uh to Belgium by chance after each of them being four and five years in concentration camps in Poland uh they both were the sole survivors of their entire family uh they came with absolutely nothing they were illegal refugees for 5 years before they even became legalized and my father always was a person who said it doesn't matter how brilliant they are or how rich they

are what matters the most is how decent they are and when you are in a concentration camp you get to see the limits of a person's humanity and the stretch and the Outreach of a person's humanity and their decency and for some reason that always stayed with me meaning don't get impressed by all the appearances and by how everything looks look at the person and then he said and a friend is the person who will always do more for themselves as they for the others sorry as they will do for themselves that's your friend and

check people out on that basis and he had never read a book he couldn't read and right pretty much he read the newspaper he spoke five languages but poorly and and he was a grand human being and I often often think of him in relation to that especially when I come into the entrepreneurial World which is often a world of inflated selves M exactly yeah now what was your what would you say is your biggest fear growing up did you have a big fear or insecurity that was a challenge for you yes um I grew

up in the Flemish part of Belgium um and on one hand I had nothing to fear on the external level but I think that the history of my parents was such that I always lived with the feeling that everything can disappear from one minute to the next I had no sense that what we have is here to stay I have never thought in terms of permanence I um happen to be born in Belgium by the fluke of our fatality um I don't really belong to a place and um for a long time I felt very

uprooted by that okay now I think it actually became also a resource for me in my life but at the time that sense that you know you cannot you cannot count on anything to be there tomorrow just because it's there today today right okay that sense of fragility and impermanence and the dread it wasn't fear it was dread you still have that dread today yes yes I do I do it's not a visible dread and uh and but yes I have free floating anxiety that I can't always pinpoint on certain things um but I I

live with a sense that you know um actually when everything goes really well that's what you're away day and I of course never think that if I go to the doctor I'm going to come out with a small boo boo I think that the day I have something since I've always been really blessedly healthy that the day I get something it will be a big boo boo I mean I I have a bit of catastrophic thinking okay how does that even though I act completely counterphobic I act like I have no fears yeah but inside

there is that little voice that just so how do you uh how does that work for you how does that support you in your day-to-day work in your relationships by having that dread sense that feeling does it work for you or not you know it changed over time I think at with age you used to you take your strength and your weaknesses and you tweak them you know back and forth but um I think that it it has always made me um well I'll tell you the first thing because I uh because of the history

of my parents because I in any way was kind of a miracle child um um my brother too because we were symbols of Revival and because it proved to our parents that they still were human in a way that they could still bring people into the world I always had a clear sense that my life was not going to be small sure my life has to be big big doesn't mean successful in money big meant meaningful Rich layered you know so not necessarily wellknown or famous but feeling full full full yeah not dead not dead

I mean there's a reason I write about eroticism right and that sense that I was not going to be mediocre you know I'm I'm not content with just the average of something that it has to be not the best it has to be the right one for me at that moment that may be the beautiful spot or the the right friend to be with or or the right act to take in relation to somebody or to some cause but that sense that my life has to be big uh I like it you know has been

with me since I was you sure okay so so tell me why you wrote this book and why you got into I guess this topic in general what made you want to start this process you know the funny thing is it's a fluke actually I never wrote about sexuality until about 10 12 years ago I did write about relationships plenty MH um for the past 30 years I've been a couple therapist and a relationship expert um I work with companies I work um with families and couples on Modern relationships and that always in involved looking

at how does cultural change affect relationships migration education technology individualism consumer Society how do all these things the shift from communism to democracy how do big cultural changes affect relationships always been doing that sex was a kind of a side subject and then I was basically a little bit looking for a new topic and uh and I got inspired by the Clinton scandal okay basically when was that that was in uh the late '90s okay but it moved all the way into the beginning 2000 I don't the exact year but the Clinton Lewinsky scandal for

me from a cultural point of view was very interesting why was the United States so tolerant about multiple divorces and so intransigent about infidelity the rest of the world and I just spoke to 4,000 people in Mexico a couple months ago and it was so important to watch this difference it was the complete contrast to the state sure has always opted the other way around you preserve the family at all cost thanks to women and you make compromises and tolerance for infidelity really yes all over the world all over the world especially in Europe it's

like every married man seems to have like a mistress right let be very clear Americans don't cheat one aota less than the French say it again Americans do not cheat one aota less than the French just feel more guilty about it right the French are just it's just well known it's just part of life right it's not part of life it is changing a great deal and it's clear that most of the time throughout history there has been a complete double standard when it comes to infidelity it's a privilege for men it's almost a sanctioned

license with all kinds of theories evolutionary and biological theories that justify their need to roam and it's been way too dangerous for women but that doesn't mean that you know you give the woman a car and then you'll see what she will really do right you know if you don't trap her into the house right uh right exactly it's adultery has always existed but what was interesting for me was how how people would scream at it here make it a matter of national political agenda and not blink an eye at multiple divorces which create the

dissolution of the entire family system why is that so much preferable to the other that was the original question and then I began to think a little bit more about okay that leads me to think about Americans and sex there something really interesting about this country in relation to sexuality that fascinates me I've been working here for almost 30 years at the time and why is it that in the US sex is the risk factor and in Europe being irresponsible is the risk factor sex is a natural part of human development okay what do you

mean by responsible not being protective not being respectful got uh not being consensual um but actually the act of doing it some part of part of normal life we have comprehensive sex education from age four why is it that here you have no Public Health policy on adolescent sexuality why is it that despite that no campaigns and abstinence campaigns Americans have earlier onset of sexual activity than the most liberal Dutch more estd and more te pregnancies than 35 developing countries combined why is that because we're not educated early yes because there are there is an

enormous uh uh taboo on sex education with the kind of sense that if you educate people they're going to be promiscuous rather than the understanding that it is actually the repression and the puritanism that will unleash a kind of sexuality that is often about smut and itation so I had I basically wrote a little article in a trade magazine not even in a the general uh then it got taken into the broad press and uh and it led to this book which is translated in 26 languages and uh and hence I became uh now suddenly

I didn't just look at relationships and culture but I look at the triangle sexuality relationships and culture using sexuality to analyze societ soal changes cultural changes families relationships and the individual self what are the core reasons or the core things you see over and over that uh either end or make a relationship challenging to be in the longer in what are the what are the ones that what are the challenges that come up over and over that you see so there's always three questions right what's a thriving relationship a thriving one yeah what can go

wrong uhhuh and how do you fix it so you started with the middle question what goes wrong yes I think there's a number of things in a relationship that that uh that become this the the kind of uh cornerstones of the demise okay and I'm not going to L them in order but they all are part of each other um indifference and contempt and neglect and violence are probably the four most important okay I'm not talking about big violence microaggressions are plenty in different when you start to feel like the other person fundamentally is not

really caring about you anymore or you don't care about them what they feel what they think who they are what they're about there's don't care you've lost interest but it's more than losing of interest it's also when you are indifferent you degrade the other person they're less important to you they don't matter and ultimately what we feel in relationships is that we matter that is the essential reason for connecting to people is that we are creatures of meaning I matter to you I'm someone you care about me you want my you want my well-being you're

proud of me you you want good for me you're benevolent all of that when you are indifferent that whole thing goes and then you start to there's that coldness that Creeps in that sense of estrangement that complete disconnect that the second one is neglect neglect when people just basically take each other for granted you know they take more care of their car than of their partner their dog or their dog anybody anything their yard anything anything gets attendance their business for sure their business for sure you know everything gets priority everything gets reviewed evaluated attended

to 360s you name it you know new input you my God it's like people have this idea that they put it all in when they were dating and then once they seal the knot it's like as if they tied a nut it's like now they don't have to do squat anymore and they go into this kind of complete sense of complacency and laziness it's an amazing thing they think this thing is just going to live on its own right like a cactus right violence violence the abuse the level of of disrespect I mean most people

talk nicer to anybody else than their partner when a relationship degrades because you can't get away with it because you can't get away with it because if you talk like this at work you gone because if you talk like this with the police you gone because if you talk like this on the street you're being punched but with you partner you have that sense that they're going to be there anyway they're just going to take it because it's family and family is this kind of this thing that doesn't dissolve so easily so you can just

lash out at them and talk to them with a tone and a dismissal that is phenomenal so that kind of violence I'm not talking physical violence and all the other big big things you're talking about aggression or resentment or all of that all of that you know passive aggressiveness all those things yeah all of that and then and then um contempt I think is the top one contempt is the killer of them all because in in the contempt there is a real there's the degradation of the it's that that complete this you're nothing you're nothing

I can kill you with that one gaze that one eyebrow that goes up that you know the do you who do you think you are what are and that's it you you're done you're done so how do we even get to this place of these these places after having been so in love and so romantic right is desire uh reflect that or if we're not Desiring the person anymore then we start to feel one of those categories or does that not play into look the truth is this there's only two relationships that resemble each other

the one you have with your parents or the people who raise you and the one you have with the people you fall in love with people can sit in my office all the time and say I have this with no one else I don't have this with anybody at work nobody among my friends ever thinks like that you're the only one who speaks like this or thinks this about me or with whom I do this no you're the the only one and now we go back in history and I'm sorry to be the psychologist but

that's really it is the place where we often learned about closeness trust loyalty commitment sharing taking receiving asking all these essential verbs of relationships we learned that at home we also learned jealousy and all possessiveness Vengeance you name them the Beauty and the not Beauty yeah we saw it all as children right we saw the fights we saw the love we saw the you know we saw the coldness we saw the lack of intimacy the intimacy yes yes and we bring that with us and we often promise ourselves I'll never be this one I'll never

be this way I'll never talk like this I'll you know and we find ourselves often much closer to the apple and then resenting ourselves to the tree we resent ourselves we're like how did we do why do we get to this place and then we feel ashamed about it and since we don't like to feel ashamed about it we hide it and one of the way we hide it is we blame the partner that's just one of the ways is a load we are very resourceful in not owning our right exactly exactly wow okay um

and where does sex play in all this and desire so I mean the one of the fascinating things for me in looking at sexuality is that it's probably one of the dimensions of relationship that has changed the most in a very very short amount of time for most of history and in still the majority of the world sex is for procreation sex is a marital Duty on the part of the woman nobody cares particularly if she likes it and how she feels and if she wants it and um and men have the privilege to go

and find sex elsewhere in a very short amount of time we're talking 60 years we have contraception which is the liberation of women for the first time to free sex from reproduction from mortality from Death in pregnancy and in child birth sorry all of that and for the first time sexuality moves from just biology and a condition to a part of our identity and a lifestyle in 60 years in 60 years the women's movement which goes after the abuses of power the gay movement which introduces the concept of identity to sexuality the fact that sex

is for connection and pleasure the fact that for the first time we have sex before marriage and many times a lot we used to marry and have sex for the first time now we marry and we stops having sex with others okay monogamy used to be one person for life now monogamy is one person at a time and people go around telling you I'm monogamous in all my relationships and it makes perfect sense to okay all of that in a very short amount of time the fact that I choose you to marry or to live

together doesn't matter commitment because I'm attracted to you because you give me butterflies in my stomach and the fact that I think that if I don't have these butterflies anymore maybe I don't love you anymore and the fact that sexuality in long-term relationships is rooted in one thing only desire I feel like it I want to not I have to not we want many kids after two kids the only reason to continue doing it with you is cuz we feel like it and hope it's pleasurable we connect it feels good it rounds up the the

whole thing that's it and hopefully it's at the same time and for each other because plenty of Desire continues but it's not always at home right exactly so this is an amazing Revolution sex that is confusing all of us and how do we sustain it so that's why I became fascinated in the nature of erotic desire and how do we sustain desire because it is the first time ever that we have a grand experiment of the humankind where we want sex with one person in the Long Haul that is fun and connected and intimate and

playful and We Live Twice As Long go figure right exactly for 60 years you're going to be with it whatever it is it's an amazing ideal so how do we navigate this if we're going to choose one partner and be with them until you know we're both gone how do we navigate The Challenge of keeping the desire continuously I think the first both men and women because the woman probably sees other men who are attracted to her and you know vice versa so it's like how do both parties do this look we know that women

get bored with monogamy much sooner than men wow is this a fact or is this that's research that's not just fact that's a that is men's desire in long-term relationship goes down gradually he actually is much more able to remain interested and maybe just because he's interested in the EXP expence itself and he has a partner there women's desire post-marriage wow and it's always been translated as well that's because women care less about sex rather than it's because women care less about the sex that they can have in their committed relationships which is often not

interesting enough for them and it often has to do with the fact that the story The Character the plot is not in is not seductive the romance which is an essential ingredient of turn on for the woman often disappears in the long-term relationship it's like you people look at each other at the end of the day and you want to fool around you want to do it you're up for it tonight now this is really not this is not very much of a turn on for most women and the idea that foreplay often starts at

the end of the previous orgasm you know and not five minutes before the real thing which for her is not the real thing the whole the real thing is everything else so it's essentially the game yes it's creating a game seduction it's a plot it's a coming close it's a tease it's what animals call pacing it's that I come to you but I don't overwhelm you I come just a little bit so that you can come a little bit toward me and then I don't immediately answer I actually go back a little bit too have

you ever seen animals they do this kind of pacing and it is an essential playful ingredient of Seduction and and excitement so women's desire plummets but we interpret it as women are less interested in sex rather than women are interested in probably just about the same kind of things that many men are but women have always known what to choose above what turns them on which was what gives them stability and security security family someone to protect be there right so what people do look this is we want one partner today to give us everything

that involves stability and security and everything that involves playfulness and mystery okay that's the grand ideal okay I want to be cozy with with you and I want to have an edge and I want you to surprise me and I want you to be familiar and I want you to give me continuity and I want you to give me novelty that's it as if it's a right and no Victoria Secret is going to solve that yeah right so then there becomes how what is desire desire is to own the wanting if you ask people a

question that goes like this I turn myself off when I turn myself off by not you turn me off when and what turns turns me off is You're Going to Hear I turn myself off when I do emails when I spend too much time on the phone when I overeat when I don't exercise when I have bad bad days at work when I don't feel confident when I numb myself when I feel dead when I don't feel thriving when I'm not alive you will really hear that it has very little to do with sex and

when you ask people I turn myself on when or by I I awaken my desires not you turn me on when and what turns me on is which is IE you're responsible for my wanting what people will talk to you about is when I'm in nature when I'm connected with my friends when I get to do my sports when I play music when I listen to music it's stuff that gives me pleasure that is alive that is vibrant that is vital that is erotic in the full sense of the word as life force and from

that place people remain interested in having sex with somebody El for the Long Haul not because they've scratched their arms for two seconds it's I feel good about myself the biggest turn on is confidence right confidence you ask people when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner every description has to do with when they're in their element when they're on stage when they're with when when when they're doing their sport when they when they are radiant when they are in their Studio on the piano on the horse you name it it's when they

are in their element IE they don't need me to take care of them they're not depressed and down and lonly and sad they're not needy they don't need me because desire is about wanting you love is also about needing you caretaking is a very powerful experience in love and it is a very powerful anti-aphrodisiac so how do you experience Love and Desire at the same time you calibrate it so sometimes you're it's the same as when you walk you have to move from one foot to the other a balance is not about staying on one

side a balance is the ability to see right now we don't need caretaking we can be mischievous we can be naughty we can be playful we can break our own rules we can stay home and not go to work at 8:00 right and now we are in a playful zone now we are feeling that we're bringing our own little transgressions home we are alive we're not just being dutiful responsible good citizens right it's that it's very small you know me I always think when I go and I see people at lunch and you see them

talking and they're well dressed and they're awake and all I see who is here with their partner because you can see them they're engaged they're giving the best of themselves that's erotic no the majority are not there with their partner they're there with their friends with their colleagues their partner is going to get the leftover when they come home at night sorry you know what forget the night date meet at at lunch when you actually have energy you know when you and and in the middle of the day like that when you're awake when you

have something to offer it's a very small thing but they don't do it they don't do it and you say why not why not why don't you stay an hour extra at home in the morning and not just because when you have a headache and just say this matters to me all in all you know committed sex is premeditated sex it's not just going to happen because whatever is going to just happen already has so you're going to make it happen because you say we matter we're important let's do this let's spend doesn't mean if

you're going to make love or have it's just means we're going to take this hour and there's nothing else that matters in this moment but just you and I to be together to check in and then we'll see what unfolds that's the erotic space in which sex may happen probably will doesn't have to but it is the place from which it is much more likely to emerge but people don't do that they do the responsibility that's the love right the citizen the commitment the caretaking the burdens the safe and then they say I'm bored I

would be too oh exactly there's no mystery there's no risk taking right exactly yeah there's no risk taking that's the word if you want desire it's risk and the risk is an emotional risk it's not about sexy risks it's really a risk on the emotional front is that I bring something else to you to differently from um differently from from the way I typically present myself sure you know how can I do this some what can I do today that would be different from the ways that I've done it until now how can I do

something that I think would actually improve our relationship me right not something that I want or that you want but that I think would be actually good for us that third entity the US right and you check every time you know how often do you just go on the tried and trodden as in you know it works sex that just works for most people is really not interesting enough right so because what does it mean it works generally right what what about the people listening her saying man that sounds like a lot of work that

every day you have to change do something different and unique and be not every day not every day not every day but what you can do every day is just a quick check with yourself you know is there something that I should notice is there something that I can be thankful for is there a little note that I could write is there you know just a way that I can show up a t it's small it's really small um here's the thing there is work and then there is the creative work you know I'm talking

about a level that is creative and that elevates you and that actually gives you you feel you feel taller you just feel like you're engaged you feel awake rather than this this is the other seated position it's comfortable it's great but nothing happens here sure this this is alert here is the essential word is curiosity when you're curious you lean forward and you watch you you're open to the mysteries of life this is please don't bother me with anything because I don't want any stimulation I've had my share I've been you know and this is

the position that most people have at home so when people say it's too much work um I basically say look you you if I was to say this in your business would you say this is too much work right or you would say that's very good advice this is high rate Consulting fees you know it's like excuse me but you don't think for a minute that your business would Thrive if you let it languish like that M never you have a reward system you have incentives bonuses bonuses but there is no incentivized system is in

the in the private domain so people just think why bother right and that's the difference is that the ones who have good relationships are the ones who created their own internal incentiv incentivized system what are some of those incentive systems that you've seen over time that really work or effective for long-term relationships I would say the first thing is almost one of the first things that our parents teach you please and thank you do you know know how many people stop thinking their Partners thank you thank you for doing this for me thank you for

picking up the shirts thank you for you know me you feel appreciated yes appreciation appreciation is huge yeah uh gratitude acknowledgement of the presence of the other in your life not did you do this did you call did you pick up do this you know half the time expectations expectations of course you know expectations is of a resentment in the make uh with the expectation comes the fear of it's not going to thank person first of all and because it also makes it feel like this is not a given nobody owes you squat you not

owed anything you're not that important you're actually quite replaceable right and with the divorce rate that we have um what's the rate at right now Dr 50 on First and 65 on second 65 on second wow it's not good right it's really you know it cost a lot of money it's not good for the health I mean it's just like you know it's not good for the jobs it's it's just it's like okay now you could say maybe people shouldn't marry but it doesn't matter if it's marriage legally or the idea is that we can

do better we can do better in general I really think that the quality of Our Lives depends on the quality of our relationships I mean nobody's going to write you know uh you worked ex 60 70 80 90 hours a week and you know no they're going to say he was there for people when they needed to he was there at every game he was there at the party he's the guy who when you were in his presence he had Charisma not because he could stand in front of a huge crowd but he had Charisma

because when I was in his presence he made me feel special mhm it's a different Charisma so appreciation gratitude thank you um little things to go out of your way right rather than just to do the minimum a lot of people start to do the bare minimum just so that they can't be scolded right go an extra thing um on occasion just do something for the other person just because it matters to them even if you couldn't care less right rather than I I don't it's not important to me I don't I don't need this

or I don't care about this uh give each other a lot of individual space not everything needs to be shared people have different passions different interests different friends and they need those separate spaces to exist um admiration I think is huge um because admiration is also that you can of really see the otherness of the other person um don't try to make you partner into one person for everything there is no such a person find multiple sources of connection of intimacy of friendship so that you can have a group of people support you and don't

have one person who has to be there for you for every especially when you're in the dumpster MH we we used to have a village of people to do that as now we just expect one person to be the village right yes yes yes one person for the whole village that that is that is a unique it is and and then we're upset when they don't fulfill the Mandate and that's the more like I can't talk to you you're not supportive of me you're not excited for me you excuse me find other people you know

can't be everything for you yeah no exactly no can you can we talk about you know what marriage was about out early you when it when it started do you know the history of marriage and how it's evolved and where it's at now and kind of like the how we look at it in society so I as I Won't Go Back millions of years because it's a long history and we were actually much more polygamous and much more polyamorous in all of that but the the the model from which we come is basically this marriage

used to be an economic Enterprise it was a Mercantile Arrangement men dependent on women's Fidelity for patrimony and lineage so that I can know who are my children and who gets the cows when I die when was this what time frame this is pretty much still it's still is in most parts of the world by the way and I would say it's probably um we're going to go about 50 60 years back okay that's it okay wow that's it people didn't choose who they married you know uh people didn't choose who they married arranged marriage

is the norm still in many parts of the world certainly you didn't marry because you fell in love you married somebody who was a good person with whom to have a family with and if love grew that was wonderful but it was not the beginning element of a relationship desire certainly was not what sex was about in marriage so this is the traditional model that doesn't mean that there was no good sex and intimate sex that doesn't mean there was no passion and that doesn't mean there was no love but that was not what the

institution of marriage was meant for marriage that becomes a romantic arrangement I will begin that at the end of the 19th century it's about 150 years old but it needs contraception it needs a lot of it needs feminism it needs a lot of things to become what we want today which is a relationship that is rooted in intimacy intimacy which until not too long ago was basically we live together we share the vicissitudes of everyday life we rais the kids we work the land intimacy now is into me see mhm I share with you my

inner life that required individualism before individualism we didn't have the concept self that's beginning of the 20th century late 19 beginning 20th so it's a lot of things go together you know the rise of individualism to move away from religion as the center the person becomes the center hence my individual happiness becomes Central now I move away from the community I I Choose You and as I Choose You Now you become responsible to alleviate my existential aloneness you know that's why you become my Village right because I've left the Village um and uh and you're

going to make me feel that I matter because I'm not dict I'm not judged by my actions I'm judged by my personality it's very different I'm not you understand it's a a whole new thing it's like who I am not what I do as I as in do I show up in church am I an upstanding citizen you know do do am I doing right by my parents it's personality it's a whole new thing right so trust affection intimacy desire become the four pillars you know within modern relationships that is a whole new model Affairs

used to be actually adultery for most of History was the space where we people went to look for true love because there was that was marriage was arranged arranged and economic now that we brought love into marriage adultery destroys it so what did we do we brought love into marriage we brought sex to love we connected happiness to relational to emotional and sexual satisfaction MH and um and we also want a passionate marriage which for most of History has been a contradiction in terms passion has always existed but somewhere else right in the affair or

in whatever yes wherever wow wherever how are we supposed to navigate all this I mean actually I think it's exciting I really do because nobody in effect wants to go backwards no absolutely not nobody wants to go back where you are stuck this is it you have one chance for life and the only thing you have going is that you die younger right exactly okay you actually have the opportunity to do it again to try a different story to be a different person to be a better partner and to and to be a better parent

for that matter and I think that that is something that we've never had is the opportunity to rewrite that story we always had one job for life and one relationship for life I think one of the you know of course we therefore didn't have to decide five times what do I want to do right exact we have G been given a unique opportunity I can have more than one career a more than one job more than one identity in this world and I can have a whole new family and I can have a whole new

love that I can start at 60 40 50 60 and another 20 years with somebody and actually do it better this time I think that is actually one of the greatest gifts we've been given how long have you been married 30 something 30 something years okay um and how is your work two kids and how is your work and the constant conversation you're in about this work supported or not supported your relationship with your husband you know there was a comment that I once made a few years back and it's become a it's become a

line in one of my TED Talks so you know where I said most of the people today are going to have two or three relationships in their adult marriages or just relationship committed relationships marri committ I could say marriages but let's say in Europe so many of us don't marry so I would say committed relationships most of us are going to have two or three committed relationships in our lifetime due to divorce due to death various things some of us are going to do it with the same person I have had probably three marriages to

the same man wow not because we divorced or anything but because over 30 years we have had to redefine ourselves to restructure everything that you do in companies you know to change our brand what works for five years is not going to work for the next that's right but work when we are just two is not the same as what works when we are four what works when we're in our 20s isn't the same as when we are in our 50s what works when we have this type of career is not the same as now

you know um and I think that the very principles that you apply to companies today flexibility fluidity the ability to reinvent itself to redefine itself to manage tradition and Innovation is really what has to enter into all Modern Love that's what coupledom is about those who can do it do it with each other and the other ones do it by finding a new person so what's the ideal relationship moving forward in in our our it's this it's uh it's you sit every once in a while and you say how we doing what are the strengths

between us what you know it's I actually think people people should have do different commitment ceremonies in the course of a marriage really yes I think that every few years or every year they should have a little Summit or they should have a little whatever they want to call it they could have a ceremony kind of where are we at checking in how are we doing what has been good in our life what could we do better what could we do differently are we doing right by our children are we giving you know are we

meeting some of our important needs at this point what has changed for us we've just been sick we've just lost a parent we've just lost a child what's changing in our life and to actually address this headon what the problem is in modern in couples is that most of the big topics are addressed when there is a crisis rather than when actually things are good when you're calm when you calm of course you have less incentive to change when things are good but you have less creativity to change when things are bad same for companies

same for couples wow so I I think Retreats for couples are unique actually because couples are often isolated units they talk to nobody Sometimes women will talk to women men will talk to no one and when a group of Couple come together in a group it is powerful it is so normalizing to know what's happening at the neighbors that you never know and that you can always imagine is different from yours it's so powerful to hear your partner like you can never hear them because somebody else just said the same thing but just with a

different word or just with a little bit more distance so that you're not instantly reactive and defensive I think that that conversation between couples the same way that you bring entrepreneurs together to a mastermind to talk about their companies to hear something in a different way that it finally lands with you and you can take action towards it yes I think that if we could actually bring the entrepreneurs and their Partners it would be an incredible thing I do a lot of it with YP witho with all these I see it each time and not

to separate the partners from the others no actually have the people in the room you know have a fishbowl where the entrepreneurs talk about what their lives is and then have a fishbowl on the other side where the the next Inner Circle is where the partners talk about what it's like to live with the entrepreneur and have each of them listen to the other it's been one of the richest conversations I've had in that space wow okay um and what's your thoughts on divorce you know there you said over 50% or divorce the first time

then over 65 the second time do you believe that um or do you think it's you know that people should experience divorce they should go through that or they think do you think they're being lazy or do you think that they're just not committed to it enough or that they haven't tried all the different things to become better themselves and to see the good in their partner I would start differently I would say or is that a bad question no no no no not at all but I I would say differently I would think that

the first thing that has to happen with divorce um is to take away the concept of failure as long as we still think that it is marriage for Life till death do us apart when de facto for the majority of couples today it's till love dies not till that do us aart that's when we divorce we break up love dies yes and then we think it's a failure I think that a relationship that has lasted for 15 20 25 years sometimes that's not a failure it's a huge success it's a long time it's a good

success and they may have done certain things poorly and other things very well I think a lot of people who divorce don't have the chance to actually appreciate how many good things they had in their relationship and to and to do what I like to call you know I like winette prro the conscious uncoupling MH meaning oh Catherine Woodward Thomas you know her yeah yeah yeah goodbye yeah this is what I really am thankful for that we had together this is what I take with me from what we had together this is what I wish

for you as we move forward this is how I hope our children will remember us that is a very different departure and when you do that departure you also have a very different continuity in your next relationships later m than carrying bitterness and victimization and resentment and all of that so I think that many people something ends you know but they moved in together they helped each other through school they helped each other in the beginning of their careers they helped each other when their parents were sick they helped each other when their parent died

they helped each other with raising children this is a lot of what marriage is about they've had good marriages for all sake and purposes and maybe other things have come in and they were not necessarily always that nice to each other and maybe they hurt each other and maybe they abandon each other maybe they betrayed each other lots of other things come in too but this stuff all disappears because of the negative that then sits on it making it look like their marriage didn't work out it failed why it failed because it ended the only

time it successful is when they meet in the funeral home interesting so you think we should redefine or look at it differently yes I think that marriage has to be disent angled from the concept of death to us part yes I think that divorce as the proof that the marriage failed is the wrong conclusion it's not right and it takes away from people Decades of enormous Endeavors and constructive stuff it's not because a company closed that a company failed right closed all the time yeah okay interesting so are are you saying that you know since

our we're evolving and growing and having different needs and desires and things like that that we should expect you know to start a family and then get divorced and how is that going to affect our our children's lives going forward uh should we be expecting more of that and be okay with just well now I've got a new partner and a new stepmom or stepdad and this is how we have multiple families now how is that going to be moving forward listen when there was no divorce basically the ones who took the brunt of it

were the women it's it the it the the supposed stability of the family basically rested because the woman stayed put made sure that the children had the kind of were taken care of and the man went out and they many times many times if they had the possibility they they certainly would so I think that we definitely have a model today that is more focused on the adults when you divorce it's for the for the well-being of the adult it's not for unless there's really egregious you know issues in the family it's not for the

benefit of the children it's for the benefit of the adult a divorce is not the end of the family it's the reorganization of the family it's the end of the couple but it's not the end of the family and if the couple can disentangle with more integrity and more respect and more real thoughts about the children not manipulation about for the good of the children then the family can actually reorganize better and this is where it's going to go so we can bemoon it but the fact is we better think about a better way of

doing it so that the children the children of today h look the the Millennials of today 50% of them are either the children of the divorced or the disillusioned yeah parents are divorced yeah and half of them half of you men grew up with single mothers mhm so you've come out with a very different kind of emotional intelligence right because you actually were speaking to those mothers at the table the whole time and they engaged you in conversations in ways that often did not take place if the father would have been at the table right

so you come I I think it's a very very beautiful new generation of men actually that emerges out of this that has that that we don't think of it they were at a table with Mom and when Mom said how was your day she was not content with just it was good or it was all right she said what so you had another question and another question and and you've developed veloped a a kind of an emotional literacy yeah that most Boomers don't have a clue about men sure that the millennial man really has available

H interesting you I don't think you've ever thought of that right yeah that's great that's great yeah you see it I mean watch yourself at the table at breakfast you know there was a whole that conversation did not happen yeah when Dad was at the table not that there was no conversation it was a different conversation MH so I think families are reorganizing and that's okay yes yeah yes it's not failures it's not bad not wrong we have Blended families we have single parent families we have gay families we have accordion families we have long-distance

families we have the fastest growing model of couples in America today is the lat living apart together that is the fastest growing and it's a boomer model it's the people after 55 life well okay who are in relationships but don't live with their partner interesting why because they often have their own families because they have their own living Arrangement because one of them is still working one of them is already preparing and downsizing lots of different reasons for why they prefer to have the benefits of the connection and of the relationship ownace and their own

space interes or because they want to stay closer to their children or grandchildren while the other person has their grandchildren elsewhere it's Millions millions of course the question of the lot is what will happen when they get older do you have the same commitment to a person who is aging and getting sick when you have not lived with them and you have maintained so much of your own life because I meet you in my 50s I have a whole life and I'm not willing to let go of that life yeah I'm willing to me to

be with you and relationship create and connecting but I don't want to let go of my I have a whole world of my own you know yeah yeah so that's the lat model and we don't know what the lat model will do for public health yeah we know that men you know live better in older age when there is somebody next to them they don't take good care of themselves course yeah of course should we expect um you know moving forward in relationships with our time uh that monogamy is something that we're going to be

able to do or with the there's always something better option and that it's more available now than ever especially with social media online dating there's distractions constantly uh yeah you don't have to leave your house anymore exactly you can pretty much cheat on your partner while lying next to them in bed exactly but we are by definition already doing serial non monogamy you know most of us don't come to marriage monogamous we've come to marriage after years of nomadism sexual nomadism so monogamy is a concept that has already been redefined throughout you asked me before

about how has marriage changed changed but monogamy had nothing to do with love for most of History monogamy became about love with Romanticism it's the sacred ideal of the Romantic ideal because the sacred cow because monogamy means I'm everything I'm it I'm the one I'm chosen I'm unique I'm is and if you are interested in someone else it means I'm not enough MH versus monogamy which was basically for patrimony and for children you know so so how should we navigate this moving forward I think concept of monogamy look if I had talked to you 70

years ago about premarital sex and virginity was a precondition you would have looked at me like this is a taboo this is a impossible today premarital sex in the west it's like nobody blinks an eye okay it would have been inconceivable okay if I had talked up to you about going to from families of eight children to families of one child you would have looked at me inconceivable if I had told you that we were going to be conceiving so many children to assisted reproduction inconceivable so today when you say open relationships or non- monogamous

relationships or periodically non- monogamous or monogamous shadan savage or you know or polyamorous it all people will say can't work impossible you know the fact is monogamy is the New Frontier but you can have it as negotiated through divorce or through what most people have always done which is proclaimed monogamy and clandestine adultery or you can do it through a model of transparency in which people have consensual non- monogamy this is it this is the options right what do you think is going to be working the most for people there going to be a little

bit of everything there are some people who really need stable committed monogamous relationships they don't want open doors and there are other people for which open doors probably should be the model from the start that's kind of who they are that's their curiosity that's the way they live their life and it's not because they're less committed or less loving it's because their sexuality is organized in a certain way and it lives together with a certain Arrangement and all of that is going to be redefined as we go along um it's de facto what's going to

happen it will be the next Frontier but if you see it on the level of marriage people say you know if you say okay let's look on the you know you have to look at it from the place of before marriage you know a Swedish philosopher said today monogamy only exists in reality it doesn't exist in your memories and it doesn't exist in your fantasies so this is not because I advocate it it's just there's first of all there's nothing to Advocate it's very simple that by definition we have multiple sex partners before marriage we

are not monogamous anymore in the traditional sense of the word the word has been INF flux and we don't really know where it's going we don't what we know is that people still seek to connect people want to love people want somebody who loves them and how that will play itself out is the mysteries of life but the fundamental human need for love for connection action for passion for Transcendence will never change the Expressions the forms the institutions in which we will seek those fundamental human aspirations will continuously transform that's really how I see the

the evolution taking place sure sure what do you think of what I'm saying oh man it's just so you know it's confusing because you hear so many different options that work that don't work you see people that love each other that go through breakup and divorce you see and then you see the pain and the struggle and the emotional toll that it takes on some people then you see people who are in you know committed monogamous relationships who feel guilty because they want to be able to explore but they they can't because they've made this

choice and they've committed to it monogamy is a practice MH we are not by Nature biologically evolutionary monogamous it's a practice it's a choice and it's a not our makeup no and it's a choice then and it's and monogamy is a Continuum are you you know you have mind you have fantasy you have memory you have a lot of things at what point do we become non- monogamous where does non- monogamy start and all of these concepts are fluid Concepts today there is just no way to define it like that right so we make choices

and we make compromises and we sometimes don't just do what we want and we often need to think about the consequences of our actions and we need to think about the larger picture and something that may be perfectly desirable for tonight may not be worth it right for the next weeks and the next years yeah exactly and I think that in the era of self-fulfillment and the right to happiness we don't have more desires today than the previous generation ations we just feel more entitled to fulfill our desires and we feel that we have a

right to be happy my personal happiness the switch the greatest switch is from a a social organization in which I think about the wellbeing of others collectivist thinking thinks about the well-being of others and I sacrifice my own individual needs for the well-being of others to the other side of the Continuum is I have a right to pursue my individual and the others will have to adapt to it and I think that we are a little bit on the extreme end of the other side at this point we really take ourselves a little very seriously

and sometimes at the detriment of other people to whom we do have an obligation and and and a commitment to not just our partners of the world the world so where should we be somewhere in the middle you think or what's in an examined State I don't know that it's always in the middle but in an examined state in a state that doesn't just say what I like what I feel the fact that I have options doesn't mean I have to exercise all these options the problem of consumer life is that we don't know anymore

to make choices same with the cereals in the supermarket why would it be better with love so I could get better I could get better I'm like you know I'm a victim of fomo you know I'm a how do I know this is the best no you don't yeah when do I find the best no you don't you don't find your partner you choose your partner it's very different you know if you think you're going to find somebody who is the person who's going to make you stop looking it doesn't work this way because no

it doesn't because at some point your inner Rumblings will start up again and then you will say oh probably start looking you know it's like you just say this is it this is where I decide to put my my roots in this moment you know and I'm going to and I'm going to try to deepen them I think we are all living with paradoxes of choice yes you know from on from from which phone I get but we cannot commodify a partner and just kind of beta test the partner and beta test the relationship and

check out to see is it good enough or can I find better you yes you can the fact is you could find other I'm not sure it would be better but you definitely can find other and there are lots of people you can love and there's only a few you can make a life with and they're not always the same there a lot of people you can have love stories with right and have Beauty but they're not the person you would make a life with how do you know when it's the person you can make

a life with I think values enter into there a lot more I mean you can have magnificent love stories with people you would never live with right they're just too different from you they have not the same values as you they have not you they they one wants child one does not one wants to travel the other does not one wants career the other very major different classes different different veltan showing as they used to say in German you know V visions of the world but you can love them you can have a beautiful love

story with that person and be transported in your experience with them but you know that that's not the person with whom you're going to build a home a future a a trajectory maybe a family if you want that um that that's not the person with whom and for that you need more of shared Vision shared Mission shared values stuff that is not just in the domain of feelings but also in the domain of beliefs um it's different wow views about money views about independence and separateness versus connection views about um emotional expressiveness views about power

mhm wouldn't you say that those differences that we have also attract us to other people that we have have some of those differences maybe we don't share the same values or beliefs but it's also different unique interesting and so it also brings us together or do you think it's not enough I think that what attracts you originally is often what becomes the source of conflict later the very thing that is so attractive because it's different is also the very thing that becomes difficult because it's different interesting so of course it's a mix and match you

know but what makes thriving relationships is not only feelings it's a mix of feelings actions beliefs touches physicality it's a it's a a more all-encompassing thing a beautiful love story can be just about feelings and you can love more people than those that you can make a life with that doesn't mean you make a life with people you don't love but it means that there is a whole whole other set of ingredients right that enter into the making of a life which is the creation of a world it's a little different and in that world

you often can be on the side of you know there's a lot of sentences today that I never heard 20 years ago in couples therapy this is a raw deal I'm not getting my needs met where is my return on investment wow excuse me excuse me somebody owes you it's like wow it's it's I am in a relationship for what it's going to give me um that is an important piece H don't misunderstand me but I'm also in a relationship for why for what I'm going to give to this person right for what I'm going

to give if I want children to these children not just for what they're going to bring to me it's like the level of narcissism has to be shrunk a tiny bit on occasion right exactly it's just like you know I mean I'm part of that same you know landscape but on occasion I think it's like you calibrate it on occasion some some of us need to really learn to think more about ourselves MH and some of us really need to think more about others right some of us live with the fear that we're going to

be abandoned and some of us live more with the fear that we're going to lose ourselves some of us are better takers and need to learn to give and some of us are consumate givers and we need to learn to take and often we find a partner who is exactly the missing link and that can be beautiful complimentarity if we actually get to use the other person to become more whole and to learn from them and it's it's and we need both you need to be able to think about yourself MH and to know what

you want and all of that but you also need to be able to remember that others exist near you your family your friends you you know you your loved ones sure and that that's what will make the difference the day you die and who will show up at your funeral basically I love this conversation I have four questions for you left I feel like I could ask a lot more and I want everyone to make sure they pick up the book made in captivity we'll have it linked up here at the end um the first

one is what are you most grateful for recently in your life recently in my life uh I had a kind of a medical scare so I'm actually very grateful that it turned out to be nothing a small Boo Boo and not a big one it was a big boo boo I thought it was a big boo boo but it ended up being a small one so that's uh Cong that's actually probably the first one that comes to me um I have um you know I spent most of my career Mo in the professional academic world

and in the last two three years um I've really crossed over to the mainstream um and that has entered me into Ted and Aspen and The Entrepreneur Space and Summit and uh sud that I mean it's worldwide and um and I think that it's been a wonderful um taking what I've done in the four walls of my office to a large platform and being actually a psychologist not just in the therapeutic space but in the larger cultural space in the world that's been great thing going digital um the idea that I can actually um help

people and and give people an elevated conversation about relationships and that Embraces the complexity and that meets them where they're at through my online courses and through this whole new platform that's been a trip it's been a fantastic creative uh Journey for me it's been just one year right so I'm very grateful for that because it's been fun creative new very different for a therapist actually um to move into kind of thought leader if you want and being part of a great more Global conversation sure great um and I that's I'm actually in many ways

I'm much happier today because because I've become more um if I miss something I no longer think oh I will never get it's like I used to want you know I'm like okay it's all right I don't have to have gone to three things right exactly full to go back to the beginning of our conversation I feel that the day is full even if I haven't binged okay I used to need to binge for the day to be full I no longer feel like that I like that uh good things to be grateful for uh

second question is if someone's looking to get into find a partner a long-term partner committed relationship for or a marriage what's one piece of advice you would say to go enter into that relationship to find that relationship if you can give one piece of advice yes ask yourself what do I want to give to someone don't just ask yourself who do I want want to meet and what what characteristics do I want in that person and make a list of all the things that the other person needs to have MH think in the reverse what

do you want to bring to somebody what do you want to bring you know what's the love that you want to put out into the world the love the caring the the benevolence you know over for another person um I think that that's probably much better than the checklist that most people go go da want yes here's what you need to be for me for me to then be interested in you you know be compelling to someone else rather than ask wait for them to Dazzle you so that you can swipe in One Direction or

another right okay you know um and um that probably would be the first thing I would say and and that's it that will be the most important one and don't think just aist is the best you're not buying a product no it's not the best just decide in advance but neither are you you it's just the one that you say this is it because often you know you pick somebody because you're ready but there were plenty of others you met before that could have been fantastic partners for you just you were not there in your

life you were not ready for that that commitment that decision so you were ready to have beautiful experiences relationships lovers you know and you love these people but you were in your 20s what did you know about life you know about wanting to build something now you're 33 and you say okay I want to do it so it's the timing it's your maturity that makes you make the choice not the only the person that you are being dazzled by right so that would be when you go dating I like that um question question number three

if um it's your last day here on Earth and your book is gone it's been deleted from history everything you've ever created has been gone for some reason it just got deleted and you're on bed and everyone you love is there and they give you a piece of paper and they say will you write down the three things that you know to be true about your experience in this world the three truths about what you learned and this is the last thing that we'll this is the only thing we'll ever know or have left about

you what do you think you'd write down about the three truths so I you know I am a connector and an enormous amount of people in my life know each other through me yeah worldwide it's always been something I love to do maybe because I had no family and I was one child of two you know Soul Survivors I I I think that recreating a tribe uh was something that came very natural to me and I would write uh I have touched a lot of people who have and I will continue to live on in

their memories because so many of them are now interconnected interesting okay um uh I have created a lot of beautiful events that were fun celebratory abundant where a lot of people came together and I uh I have had a great relationship with the man that I've lived with at least for now for the 30 years 35 years of my life and I've raised two boys who if I was a woman interested in men I would have wanted to date them there you go I love it I love it uh before I ask the final question

Esther I just want to say that I acknowledge you for for being here and the continuous commitment to the work you do to supporting so many people in the world about navigating relationships and understanding how to have full Rich meaningful experiences in relationships I think the work you're doing is so powerful especially today more now than ever and I just want to acknowledge you for the gift that you bring to so many people so thank you thank you final question it's what I ask everyone at the end is what's your definition of greatness oh um

I went to a company recently and they asked me that question actually um I think irreverence is a big part of it there's going to be a few words Integrity but that's often a irreverence not to take the accepted as the given I don't think that that's because that's what we do or that's how we think that that definition means that it's right or it's true so I am a person who questions I topple sacred cows I open up possibilities I'm rather non-judgmental um and I like to shed a whole new light on something that

that people think they've already heard a lot about and to rethink or kind of uh challenge the conversation um it's that those words go into creativity uh but greatness is that greatness is is when you when you poked at something uh and it when you started out it existed like that and when you ended it became something completely different um and I think mating actually you know mating or the courses in general I I am counterintuitive I have you know I think people come in I'll just give it to you like that people have a

story every person who comes to therapy or every company who comes for me to consult they have a story they describe themselves a certain way greatness is when they can come in with one story and leave with a completely different one I love that it's a perfect Ed dig Esther Perell thank you so much for being here where can we find you online where can we connect with you what's the best place to go all right so it's www.com you opt in with me I connect with you I communicate with you we're in conversation I

never harass but I Inspire I'm on Facebook I'm on Twitter I'm on Instagram um and I'm about actually to release the Third online course called rinding desire um that is really once you've read me what can you do how do you bring this home how do you bring this to your relationships committed ones or not and to yourself and that's really where this this online courses now are is like um it's me on it's not the podcast yet which we will talk about but it is me speaking to you about how you take all of

these ideas and make them personal and transform them into actions that will change your life I love it Esther appell thanks so much for coming on I appreciate it it's a pleasure hey guys thanks so much for watching this video I really appreciate it and if you enjoyed this video then make sure to subscribe to to my YouTube channel you can do that by clicking right here to subscribe cuz each week we come out with awesome Epic and inspiring interviews and messages and videos just for you so click subscribe right here to get notified of

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