Follow Him Podcast: Episode 23, Part 1–D&C 60-62 with guest Dr. Gerritt Dirkmaat | Our Turtle House

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Have you ever felt that your efforts fall short? In their month-long travels, some early saints work harder than others and the Lord addresses this and us and encourages us to remember that our testimony of the gospel is like a “talent.” Join Hank Smith, John Bytheway and special guest Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat as they teach us how the elders are called to travel from Kirtland to Jackson County, Missouri, and, “Preach by the way.” This episode encourages us to serve and teach because the Lord is with us, as with the early Saints. Coming Soon! Part 2 of this episode: https://youtu.be/WG3KaWsA1xA Show notes: https://followhim.co/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpocast Enjoy this podcast? Download the Our Turtle House app and access thousands of hours of fun and inspirational firesides, talks, devotionals, and podcasts (including the follow Him podcast) that your whole family will enjoy! Get the app here: http://turtle.link/app -------- 00:00 Intro 00:44 Introduction to Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat 04:54 Background to Sections 60-62 08:10 Church Faces Difficulties with Headquarters Being in Ohio and Growing Membership in Missouri 12:17 Saints Found Success Teaching Native Americans but Government Stops Saints from Teaching 15:13 Saints Ask for Direction and Told to Preach Along the Way to Missouri and the Lord Isn’t Pleased With Their Missionary Efforts 24:25 Northerner Saints are Mistrusted by Southerner Missourians and Begins a Rising Tide of Anti-Mormonism 30:57 Joseph’s Spelling and Probable Accent 32:33 Difficulties Traveling by Steamship via River 35:42 Missionaries in Every Time Period Struggle Finding Success and Facing Disappointment 38:39 Tension Among the Saints Due to Temperature, Land Disputes, and Travel Difficulties, etc. 47:42 The Lord Gives Them a Terrible Experience Travelling via River in Order to Testify to Others the Benefits of Land Travel 52:43 Joseph Teaches the Saints Need to Expend Every Effort to Learn by Experience and Compare to Revelation 54:30 Satan Controlling the Water and Mormon Mythology 57:14 Ezra Booth Experiences False Expectations of Zion 1:01:05 For Times We Feel Forsaken by God 1:14:00 Elder Maxwell Describes the Knowledge of a Premortal Existence as a “Flood of Light” 1:15:00 End of Part I #ourturtlehouse #comefollowme #doctrineandcovenants

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Video Transcript:

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of follow him my name is hank smith and i am here with my engaging co-host john by the way welcome john used to say at byu when our fellow ward members became engaged they were in-gagged and you could you could never find them to do their home teaching anymore too it was it was tough Well it came from our last uh yeah our last interview with alex ball with dr baugh as we talked about anxiously engaged hey i need to remind everybody you can find us on social media instagram and facebook you can go to our website follow him.co follow him dot co for transcripts um references anything you need you can also rate and review the podcast We'd love it if you do that uh john who is our guest expert today i gotta tell you i'm pretty excited we are excited to have garrett dirkemont back and he did with us what was i think section three section three when we were just getting started we were yes we were brand new podcasters john now we know we're so experienced and so we're so excited to have him have him back because we had so much fun and And since that time i've seen him on history of the saints and a bunch of other places uh so let me refresh our audience's memory about garrett garrett j dirk mott is an assistant professor of church history and doctrine at byu he received his phd from the university of colorado go buffaloes in 2010 where he studied 19th century american expansionism And foreign relations his dissertation was titled enemies foreign and domestic u.s relations with mormons in the u.s empire in north america 1844 to 1854. he worked as a historian and writer for the church history department from 2010 to 2014 with the joseph smith papers project and served as a volume co-editor historian for documents volume 1 the lead volume editor on documents volume 3 has continued to work as a Volunteer editor for the joseph smith papers project on administrative records council of 50 minutes march 1844 to january 1846 and documents volume 8. how would you like everything hank that you had ever written or texted or posted to be compiled in a book one day uh my word i know he is the co-author along with michael hubbard Mckay of the award-winning book from darkness unto light which i am still waiting for the notification from the salt lake county library to go pick up um maybe i should just go buy one from doctor come on joseph smith let me give you the full title from darkness unto light joseph smith's translation and publication of the book of mormon published by religious studies center at Byu and desert book in 2015. the author of dozens of academic articles as well uh is that enough garrett honestly this i'm only like i don't think we need to i'm a third of the way through yeah yeah this is great i don't i i this was a i didn't send this one over in particular so yeah i got this and and that's you know i just grabbed it from the uh Religious education website but but we're just glad to have you welcome and thanks for coming back and coming in spite of us thanks for coming back again well i'm glad to be here happy to spend some time with you guys you you knew what we were when you picked us up yes yeah it's that snake story thing i'm carrying you down the mountain now [Laughter] i would encourage everyone who hasn't Heard our first episode with garrett uh dr dirk mott to go back that's episode four um definitely want to go back he tells some just wonderful personal stories about his degree uh he also tells us about the stolen 116 pages uh just really and his testimony there uh is just fantastic so if you haven't heard that one please Um after you listen to this one or right now go back listen to that one first uh okay um i have a couple of comments before we get started john if that's okay uh dr dirtmot garrett and i uh where we shared a hallway for a couple of years at byu and um i heard some really fun stories and i thought our listeners deserve to hear um at least one of these stories so the One i'm thinking of garrett i'm gonna ask to ask you about two today but the one i'm thinking about is one i just don't know how to work in to our interview so i'm just going to ask you about it and that is um now i don't want to build it up too much because people might be like well that wasn't a great story but for me personally for me personally i have thought about that story and people that i've told the Story to i could probably tell it uh the people i've told the story to love it all right garrett we want to take up all the time we can in this week's lesson having your expertise here we're studying sections 60 through 62 of the doctrine and covenants all three of these are received in the first half of august of 1831 so let's back up a little bit let's remind everyone what brought Joseph smith and some of the members of the church to missouri and what they did there and now that it sounds like they're going to head back soon yeah well the uh the culmination of what the early believers all wanted was to know where the city of zion was going to be built and there's just it's it's it's interesting if i were to if i were to have you know a Congregation of of latter-day saints today uh you know write down what you think the the the most important doctrines of of the church are right i mean if you made the list long enough right somewhere between having a year's supply of food storage and above understanding how to use ham radios would be the idea of a city of zion and And it it's so incredibly foreign our concept of zion right um to what these early believers i mean i i'm obviously being a little bit ingested there but my point is most of us are driven today in our testimonies by uh you know things like joseph smith's vision the the book of mormon other doctrines that have been revealed many Many early converts to the church are converted specifically because of the idea of a city of zion the idea that there would be this city of god a place where everyone was equal a place where there was nothing but christianity and love in it and so they're they're driven by that and so they're driven so much by it that you know your your previous podcasts Have covered the fact that you actually will have you know you have the ability for people to be deceived by false revelation surrounding zion like with hiram page because so many believers are so desperate to have that promised blessing well finally in uh in the summer of 1831 joseph smith receives the revelation that they're all to go to go to missouri and that when they got There god would show them the place where this city of zion's to be built this is a pretty big deal and and and missouri is a thousand miles away at least that part of missouri is a thousand miles away from uh where the kirtland area is i heard someone i'm going to stop you real quick i heard someone say once oh how convenient that Joseph smith said the city of zion is in missouri so close to ohio and i'm like wait wait wait wait well i mean it was going to be yeah technically you know yeah if you were in uh if you were in eastern missouri and in western ohio then i guess it would only be like 500 miles away from them the problem is they're going from Eastern ohio to western missouri and uh before there were you know as many interstates i mean obviously you know we haven't had harry truman as president yet and so the reality is it is not an easy journey it's incredibly far it's incredibly difficult it takes usually if you're going fast three weeks four weeks five weeks six weeks Depending on the time of year the weather it is it's a massive and it actually the space creates a a it'll create an ongoing problem for the church because as the church uh begins to grow in missouri the the members there are a thousand miles away from the headquarters of the church and there's no telephones and there's not even any telegraphs And so they are at best two months away from getting any answer from church headquarters if you were to call it that uh so you're in missouri and there's a question that comes up oh what do you think we should do about this well we better ask joseph i write a letter you know i send it two months later yeah if it takes a month to get to ohio and if joseph opens it and the he's First of all he's there he's not off preaching somewhere he's there when the letter comes and the moment he gets it he opens it reads it you know hurriedly jumps into a desk and writes a reply back and then sends it on the next you know passing horse then if that happens you're you're two months away from from that so imagine you're like Uh you know joseph we've really got to find out if you know it's april now we got to find out if by may we're going to buy this land you know and joseph yeah yesterday yeah yeah i guess hopefully you did i don't know what to tell you i mean those exchanges don't happen like that again i'm being a little facetious but the reality is a communications breakdown is is going to be an ongoing problem As the church continues to have two locales the headquarters of the church in the kirtland area where joseph is and now the eventual headquarters not only of of the church but where the the new jerusalem in the city of zion is to be built there in jackson county and as more and more members move that the tensions created by that are going to become a lot but for our purposes Um there was so much anticipation surrounding the city of zion that when when they arrive and you covered this in in in previous podcast joseph is going to um receive a revelation of where the temple is to be built there in the city of zion the the problem for many of these people that have just you know they've been been walking for four or five weeks to get down here With the idea that you know when we get to that place i imagine it's going to be the most beautiful place that's ever been and it's you know a dirty western missouri gambling town with a bunch of horse thieves and liars in it i mean it is not no part of it suggests that oh yes this is clearly going to be zion i mean it is uh it's a real disappointment for some of the people who took the Journey and um there's not a lot of prospects for preaching to the people that are there i mean there are some people there not very many people have listened that the intention of going to this part of missouri in the first place for oliver cowdery and those who went on on the mission to preach to the native americans was to go into what was you know what's today kansas but was indian territory then And preached the native americans um but those american indian tribes uh while apparently quite receptive to those latter-day saints that were preaching they they the missionaries were almost immediately driven out by the federal government it's actually the first time that the federal government is going to take a stance that is essentially an anti-mormon stance and the federal government will say Well you can't preach to the to the american indians without a without a permit okay well can i get a permit no oh well then that uh so i it makes it you know well you can't preach without a permit and also you can't get a permit um uh and so that they've really been stymied in their efforts to try to uh to try to do that and so there's you know there's There's some angst obviously these people have been gone from their families for a while there are those who are moving to missouri who are going to be a part of missouri but there's this idea that they they need to return and so the revelations that we're covering today all occur in the context of people beginning to return back to ohio how they're going to return back to ohio Um some dealing with some of the fallout of the disappointment that occurred when god declared that the place that the new jerusalem was going to be built was a place that in many of these uh missionaries estimation was was the least likely spot for zion beautiful place not beautiful surroundings well i mean circumstances yeah i i don't know i mean they didn't have air Conditioning so i mean they're there in the summer it's western missouri if you've ever been in uh uh you know kansas city in in late july uh without air conditioning of any kind i mean i could see the reason why you're like you know new york's climate seems a lot better are you sure maybe we could check on the revelation again and you know it doesn't seem right edward partridge writes to his wife like Um yeah i don't know what happened but wow yeah yeah yeah all right um john you want to go to uh oh sure uh we're on question four then yeah i'm i served my mission in the philippines and i thought that i had experienced the max of heat and humidity and i on a church history tour was at adam on diamond one time and i thought oh This is the max of heat and humidity and do we have to grab our stuff and come here one day because yeah it was warm and uh like you said they didn't oh boy so let's let's um jump into section 60 and look at some of the some of the content what are the some of the things that uh we ought to see here for sure garrett well i think the the background of section 60 is this you know The question that is um you know how are we to return or are we to return back to to ohio i i think uh john whitmer uh when he writes the first the earliest heading we have to this revelation he just calls it directions to some elders to return to their own land is is is the background that they have for it and um the reality is all these men had been called By revelation to go to missouri and told how they were to go to missouri and told you know how to preach along the way and companionships right yeah in companionships and that they're to preach to people along the way and that they that there was all kinds of things they were supposed to do as they went and dnc 60 is is essentially the it is the The book end to that it is that yeah okay you didn't do it now you're to go back and this is how you're to go back and so that's what that you you initially get out of doctor and come to section 60 is how how directed at a almost you know a micromanagement level the this first trip to missouri is god called through revelation not just you know Joseph saying hey would you like to go to missouri god calls through revelation everyone who goes to missouri and then he's going to again by revelation return those elders back that are that are going to go back and some are going to stay colesville saints w phelps yes most of them most of them are not Uh not all there yet right if they're coming in a larger group it's gonna take them some time to get there in fact some of the elders who uh were called initially to go and and and be a part of this conference in missouri they're not there yet and the reason why they're not there is because they took seriously the commandment that god had given that they were to preach all along the Way and there were some who you know you know well it's it's a it's a month-long journey to you know to the western missouri to begin with i don't know that i need to spend a ton of time in western ohio preaching to people and so that's actually going to come out in some of these revelations the the lord is going to chastise people for the fact that You know some of you didn't really make the effort that i wanted you to make in trying to preach the gospel on your way down here instead you you got down here quick and you you hid your talents under the bushel and you you um your candle under it but you hid your talents and you you uh uh mixed your parables there that was yeah i did i mixed my parables that's What happens when you have uh not a not a very good scholar on but the uh reality is that they uh uh they they at least some of them didn't meet the approbation of of god in the sense of how he expected them to preach so there are still people coming for instance hiram smith is is not there for the dedication of the land design he's still coming because he was Actually taking his time on his way down preaching the way that he thought they were supposed to so yeah they're they're most people that are going to be permanent residents of missouri uh well i think we all know uh there are no mormons that end up being permanent residents uh during this time uh uh the the uh the ones who are the ones who plan to stay there until the millennium only to be driven out by Mob violence they most of them are going to be arriving later uh this initial missionary group is coming with primarily just the men who are going down there a few of them are going to stay most of them are going to go back and then the larger groups of actual migrating latter-day saints uh families that they're going to be coming later in the year okay all right let's go into Section 60. garrett uh what do you see here i think part of what we we talked about there in some of the initial verses right god says that he's not well pleased right for those people that that that wouldn't open their mouth why because they had a fear of man of man i mean latter-day saints are uh well they're not they're not even latter-day saints yet right members of The church of christ who believe in the book of mormon they are these people are uh not well received primarily in most places that they go um so you could see how for for some of these people was a very difficult prospect and you know you you're on this really long journey that is arduous that's in the middle of the summer that requires a great deal of physical effort You start preaching to a few people they you know tell you very unkindly to move along you can see how quickly you know after the first couple hundred miles that you might say you know what even if i go try to talk to those people they're not gonna listen to me so if they're not gonna listen to me even if i go try to talk to them i'm not going to spend any more of my effort to do that And probably there's a lot of people who serve missions in in more modern times who've had similar thoughts right i mean i went to wisconsin on my mission there were very few people who ever listened to us at all and certainly a thought would arise all the time like look whether i spend the next two hours knocking on these doors or not the results actually going to be the same yeah only my hand will hurt more i Mean but there's no you know so you you your reality is that you can see how continual rejection can can help fuel that kind of apathy towards preaching i remember as a missionary i was like oh i just kind of avoid this confrontation right avoid this awkward moment and that to me that's fear of man right i just i think i think nowadays i'd i'd probably be a little more bold in my 40s than i was when i was 19. uh but yeah i can see that being fear of man uh not necessarily i'm scared they're gonna hurt me but just scared of of the the interaction fearing the yeah the square i mean we i think human nature is such that we are social animals and that we want to be comfortable socially and we want to be liked and when when you're talking about Religion today to somebody right i mean you know if you want to make someone feel uncomfortable you know you're like i'd like to talk to you about god for a minute okay style it back i mean you know i mean imagine in the 19th century when when people you know religion is is much more interwoven into their society and their Culture but they also feel so much more passionately about it and and if you happen to be departing from what they accepted protestant narrative is which which of course latter-day saints are i mean it is a fundamental absolute of protestantism in the 19th century in america the bible is the only revealed will of god and you have these You know latter-day saints saying well let me tell you about the book of mormon i mean so their their opening line is essentially going against 300 plus years of of absolute protestant bedrock theology that that there could be any truth let alone an entire book of it outside of the bible is just it's a blasphemy to them and so my guess is rather than just Disinterested you know stares uh many of the people reacted to them with a kind of well you're a blasphemer if you're trying to tell me that there's truth outside of the bible then well then you're a liar you've been deceived you're a blasphemer i can imagine we have accounts of missionary efforts that that didn't work as well uh from other times or in this era so and i think Too we're talking about the fear of men but this is like you said this is the frontier too it's not like there's a cop around every corner to help if things i mean i don't know if they were ever physically assaulted or anything but uh perhaps threatened uh what do you think get off me do i have recti yeah we don't have record of that at this early period i mean although The federal uh indian agents in the uh in the indian territories did threaten to take all the missionaries to jail um in fort leavenworth if they if they didn't get out i mean so they are getting that i don't know if they i mean if they there are any specific threats but i think more it's it's a matter of you know no one's listening but it is a very rough place i mean i think it's one of the knights Who explains that you know the only way that you could tell the difference between the sabbath day uh or not in the area was that the you know the saloons and gambling houses were more filled on sundays than other days of the week so i mean it is it is certainly a it is it is a rough place to be a religionist it certainly probably does not help that These are primarily almost exclusively northerners coming into what is a hotly contested southern state i'm not saying they're preaching abolitionism all the way but the the reality is they lived in in very different worlds and and so they would be mistrusted as outsiders even if they were you know you know as episcopal as the day is long and in an accepted religion They would have been there would have been a great deal of mistrust they're they're coming in they're preaching a new religion i i don't know who they are and uh and and and then you add to it this kind of uh cultural divide between uh people from new england and and and ohio and people from especially contested uh slave states like missouri i mean It it i'm sure there were many uh difficult encounters some the saints there did they know that joseph had been pulled out of the john johnson farm in the middle of the night did they know that sydney rigdon had been so they don't know that yet because this is happening before that right so so what will start to happen in late 1832 in part as a result Of of ezra booth's apostasy that we'll talk about here in a minute what starts to happen is what i call a rising tide of anti-mormonism that it really hits ohio and missouri at about the same time and it becomes violent first in ohio with the assaults on sidney rigdon and joseph and the loss of joseph's child as a result i mean uh in 1832 but then it becomes widespread violence in in missouri Um in in early 1833 so here at this early stage in in early 1831 i think for the most part the reason why there's not as much violence is is there's very little threat right i mean the reality is if i i don't know what towns everybody lives in but if like you know six people showed up from some weird you know uh protestant sect in your town And started preaching and then they started saying things like we're gonna own this town we're this is god gave this to us and they have obviously a high-pitched voice like that uh your primary result i i mean your primary reaction would not be like well i guess we've got to go tar and feather them uh your primary reaction would be they're crazy yeah those clowns are Crazy but you know whatever i mean there's so few of them exactly generally what starts to cause physical problems for the latter-day saints is that as they gather the very fact that they're gathering presents political economic religious uh uh and societal social problems that that just don't those problems Don't really exist when there's not a uh a large group right so that's that happened in colesville in new york right you know in fayette there aren't any mobs because because nobody lives there right except essentially for the whitmer's extended family no one lives there today so in but in in colesville when you got to the point that a significant portion of the Of the town i mean nothing near a majority but i don't know what the percent is and any number i throw out larry porter could later listen to book that's not even close uh but uh even if it started to approach 15 to 20 percent that is a big deal that's transforming what your town is yeah it's transforming your relationships in the town it could possibly transform Economies the local politics so when it's just you know a dozen two dozen people that you know are there and then leaving i mean the reality is in order for people to react violently usually they have to feel like that there's something that is long-term that they are fighting against yeah i mean i'm sure initially the people that are there are Are basically saying well this is great actually because you know these newcomers are coming here and buying our stuff and we're of course charging them outrageous prices because they're just showing up with nothing but desperately want to live here i mean you know i'm sure we could talk to any real estate agent and they would tell you that their favorite client is the one who Absolutely has to live in this town no matter what and it has to be on this street no matter what okay okay we can do that if you're going to pay any premium we can we can do that yeah but yeah i mean and that's essentially what the latter day saints are doing right they're moving we've got to be here they're moving to this area that is I mean i i mean literally no offense to any latter-day saints in you know in kansas city today but at the time this is essentially the most worthless land in the united states it's as far west as you can possibly get it has such poor connections to the remainder of not only the state of missouri where almost all of the settlement is in the st louis area right it has it is so Disconnected from the rest of the country that i'm not saying the land isn't fertile the land's beautiful the land is fertile land but it doesn't matter how fertile your corn crop is if it takes you three months to get it to a market somewhere right i mean the reality is it is the cheapest land that exists and so when you have a group of people moving In who desperately have to live in a specific part of this land that's relatively inexpensive i think at first it's actually seen kind of as a boon oh i can sell my land for twice what it's worth here right and but as more and more people come right i mean and look that's that's the reality of of migrating peoples all the time is that often they're seen uh as an Opportunity at first and then as more and more come then they then they're seen as a threat and that uh that that plays out i think for the latter day saints in missouri what's funny is that you know there are a couple of times when you're reading joseph smith's writing that you wonder i mean it seems to come across that he look he's he's not educated right so he's trying to spell things phonetically A lot of the time and one of the words that he misspells multiple times the same way is the word church right uh he misspells the word church with instead of c-h-u-r-c-h he spells it with an i and i think it's because joseph's from new england i i mean like i know that every church movie we see him in he's got this wonderful utah accent he's like yeah you know he's like we've Got to get the brethren out to you know but the reality is you know the guy's born in vermont he's raised in new hampshire he's not from utah uh you know and so it makes you wonder if the reason why he's misspelling that is if the reason why he pronounces it is because it's not the church it's the church you know you know go into the church and and um the other name that he misspells is Actually edward partridge's name he he leaves the r out of it because it's not par it's patrick you know me and edward patridge you know gonna go to the church and maybe catch a sox game after i don't know i don't know what his accent sounded like so i i again i don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable if you don't want to think of joseph Talking about the first vision with a kind of new england accent you don't have to but i'll tell you what the new england saints should probably be like actually joseph sounded a lot more like us than you people out in utah in in section 60. so one of the other things i think to take away from it is not only have this chastisement um they're directly commanded by god to how they're supposed to go home right They're supposed to either make or purchase a craft um which you know they're going to try to take the river down now now where jackson county sits where they where they're at is on close to anyway of the missouri river and the idea of course is you know you couldn't do it this way going there unless you were on a steam ship and there's really not a lot of steamship travel up that that far that early But you can go with the river down the river right so so you can get in a canoe or you know get on a flat boat or something and you can float down the river you know you don't have to walk as much and you're going to be and that'll take you all the way in to st louis now from there you're going to have to you're going to have to probably go over land because uh you know The ohio river you know you'd be going up river on the ohio and you'd be going upriver on the mississippi whichever way you decided to go uh but uh it's uh verse uh five and six that that that tell them that they need to get essentially get some boats um and and and take their journey speedily to to saint louis um and then they're going to go uh from There joseph's told that they're going to go through cincinnati on the way back which which makes sense they are um told that they are supposed to again preach on the way back the reason why i point that out is they're specifically commanded to get a get some watercraft in order to take their way back and that matters because the sections that follow At least one of them is directly resultant of the fact that they follow this commandment they're commanded to get to to take this water route um and the fact that they actually listen is is going to um it's going to it's going to lead to some some issues i don't know spoiler alert i don't want to let every everyone know immediately but i think Verse 14 is also is also pretty pretty good uh after thou has come up into the land zion has proclaimed my word thou shalt speedily return proclaiming my word among the congregations of the wicked not in haste neither with wrath nor with strife so this this idea that again don't try to just make the journey um also not with contention i mean that idea with not with wrath not with strife That suggests that maybe there might have been some on the way um and to try to to make it a more peaceful exchange but um my dad used to quote to me verse 13 thou shalt not idol away thy time he loved that one yeah dads love most scriptures that have the word idol in it and that was before there was you know the internet so i can only imagine now that uh right that's get moving get Working i remember yeah i think i like the the context though because as as as garrett alluded to a minute ago neither shalt thou bury thy talent it was it was kind of the the idol part was not doing the not preaching the gospel by the way that's isn't that right yeah and i think and and even when they got there i mean i think the missionaries that were already there Had in some respects you know kind of stopped trying i mean you know that you know i don't know how many future missionaries are going to listen to this or uh but the reality is um just about every mission you go on um you fought you will find yourself feeling like your efforts don't really matter they don't bear fruit and and and that becomes a really difficult thing i mean you know That it's hard as a human to have negative result negative result negative result again and again and again and again and again and to still have faith to that your next result might be different you know i mean you know that i know we all hear the missionary stories of you know what there i was you know it was 400 degrees below zero My companion wanted to go home but i said wait there was one more house at the far end of that street and we were and you know and then that person's baptized and they you know they become an apostle later whatever those are those are the missionary stories that that we share with each other all the time and you know because they're miraculous experiences but we sometimes miss Like the whole other part of that and that is yeah remember i started the story with we'd been out tracting for 15 days 15 hours a day and no one had talked to us at all that's gonna think about that right i mean yeah the the reality is it's i think satan tries to convince us that our past failures are in some way indicative or predictive of our future Results and and and and tries to wear us down and you know if you're going to serve a mission i mean the reality is you actually have no idea what what person is going to listen next and yeah you might have been cursed off the doorstep from the last person and this person is embraces the truth of god searching for israel right it will speak Unto them um i wonder if verse 15 is i honestly don't know if partly pratt is around when this revelation is given but it says shake off the dust of thy feet against those who who receive thee not not in their not in their presence unless i shall provoke them because we just talked about might be a reference to dnc 49. shaking the coattails right in front of them Everybody looks at parley you know garrett uh sections 61 and 62 are not received in jackson county now but on the river uh yeah this is are these the only two sections received on the missouri river i think uh yeah at least uh for for right now for for during this time period these are the the ones that are received here i mean uh they and it's because it's for their Journey back so with section 61 they went and got the craft that they were told to get right uh action six back yeah yeah yeah yeah in section 60 and in fact ezra booth will bitterly complain about the fact that he had to go find canoes you know but um there so the group is traveling back in these canoes because they've been told to by revelation And there there's some simmering hostility that's going on i mean you know it's it it's interesting like if you've ever been on a trip with a group of friends right you know the first you can make three days on a on on a trip with a group of friends and things are fine right you you get you get 12 or 13 days in and you know you don't care how good That guy's missouri accent is you've got a problem yeah yeah and and you know you know it's you know benjamin franklin right he said you know fish and house guests stink after three days i mean the reality is these guys have been on this arduous trek together to get down there and and in the in the heat in the sun and a month plus journey to get there and they There are some tensions that really start to boil over in part because of the disappointment that you know i think some people really thought that you know the city of enoch was going to come down when they got there that they'd see the streets paved with gold and this would be it'd be like a garden of eden's spot and ah and then this is where the you know the city rebuilt and and that wasn't the case jesus all in a Month yeah exactly i mean yeah or that well of course because we're god's you know chosen elders here we're going to be baptized i mean they're not going to there's not going to be water enough in the missouri river to baptize the people that we're baptizing and and and none of that happened so so in many ways you have this physical exhaustion Combined with this you know the familiarity they're being with each other so much and then this the temporal really disappointment of that's not what i thought zion was gonna be uh and now look not everyone complains about the location of zion but you know as you learned in one of your previous uh you know episodes i mean you know it's it's bad enough that Edward partridge and sydney rigden get into a massive fight over this and and it's a fight that they have it will actually take a long time before they ever seem to be reconciled so you you already have some bad feelings among the group that didn't quite joseph smith was involved in that argument as well yeah right because yes because you Talked about that yeah yes yeah because because partridge is look partridge is a business man uh he's he's got an eye for real estate and when joseph says this is the place where the temple is going to be built i mean for partridge it's kind of like well uh i can see like a thousand other places that are better than this why why is it here you know do you want to want to check again you know uh uh you know not to be tried About it but yeah i think that you know partridge has just sacrificed unbelievably in a very short amount of time in order to be a part of the movement and it really seemed like he felt like joseph was was was wrong and that of course you know cindy rigdon tries to jump to joseph's defense and and you know you know one thing that no One's ever said about sydney riggan was you know he had such a mild personality that you know so i mean that the problem is and that when when sydney reagan gets involved you're going to know about it i mean the guy is going to come at you and he's going to come at you hard and and and he's got away with words he's good with words yeah he's very good with words but he's also very uh biting with them too right and so All of us have been in a situation where we've had a fairly sharp disagreement with someone that we otherwise really care about even when you both slap each other's backs and say you're sorry those words they linger there's some lingering sting from that well maybe he was you know i mean you know every time hank and i get in an argument he's like you're just a hacker Store and you aren't even good at all and i'm like you know he says he's sorry but i really maybe he really means it yeah yeah i think i feel like hank means it um but anyway um so i think there's that there's some lingering things and then there's apparently we don't know the nature of it but as they start going down the river there's there's really some grumbling going on among the group To the point where oliver cowdery starts to try to chastise people that hey you need to straighten up and fly right and so there's just some bad feelings going on and in the midst of all of that you know this was not the pleasure cruise down the nile that they thought this was going to be uh the missouri river today has been uh it's been dredged and There's been dams built in it and there's it is a a navigable waterway in 1831 it is it is a treacherous treacherous river and even even after they start trying to make improvements on it it is a regular thing that there are massive uh catastrophes that occur on the river i mean uh there are shifting and uneven Sandbars it is uh all the time that that uh things can get submerged into the water and in this case that's that's exactly what happens to the group there's a sawyer uh or sire that uh that is uh essentially a tree that is just under the water but you know it's a fallen tree right so a tree's on the bank and then falls into the water the bottom is now stuck into the water The other parts now sticking up and it it's going to present this huge snag opportunity for any boat because the water's going over it but it can't draft all the way over it so if you're in your canoe and you hit it you're gonna hit it well you're gonna flip right or you're gonna something's gonna happen they run into one of these at mcgill wayne's bend which is a place essentially lost to History because since they've they've redone the river and improved it but and it nearly capsizes joseph and sydney's canoe look these guys are it's not like they've been you know taking swimming lessons at the ymca i mean not everyone knows how to swim in the 19th century i mean it it it is it's not everyone who does and so it is a terrifying experience they they all make their way to the bank But not only have they been carping at one another not only are they all exhausted from this journey now they they feel like their lives were were just about threatened and again if you're looking for a way to criticize why were we in that boat in the first place well because joseph received a revelation telling us to be in that boat so it it the context of dnc 61 is it's this revelation that's received on the bank of the missouri river After they've had this kind of i don't want to call it a near-death experience but they were certainly terrified with what had happened in their water journey a water journey that they think that they were only on because god gave them a revelation telling them that they should do it um something that god talks about in in the lord talks about indeed c61 um he first starts with uh with verse two In in saying that um whose sins are now forgiven you for i the lord forgive sins and i'm merciful unto those who confess their sins with humble hearts verily i say to you that it's not needful for this whole company mine elders be moving swiftly upon the waters whilst the inhabitants on either side are perishing in unbelief so it was always kind of odd right that god Kept telling them they needed to take their time and preach to people along the way but at the same time told them to take this water route to st louis well i mean i don't if you're gonna like shout to people as you go down the river you're like hey we're mormons yeah how quickly can you teach your first discussion you know i mean uh you know if you're on someone's door they're like i'll give you one minute you're Like oh so joseph smith you know we most people live in the spring being even though they call them about different names we believe in god lives you're going to slash you can't you're trying to get it out and uh uh clearly there's not a whole lot of opportunities to preach the gospel while you're in a canoe going down the river and and and so that kind of seemed like maybe a contradiction and then the lord explains that here Um in verse 4 he says i suffered it that you might bear record behold there are many dangers upon the waters and more especially hereafter um so what these guys are going to do when they go back to kirkland is they're going to say listen you just take the overland journey okay that that you don't want to try to take the The river journey i know it looks inviting but it is a nightmare that is so dangerous it's not worth it and so apparently god allowed them to have this experience so that they would be able to know firsthand how treacherous the the river route actually is so that uh other people would not take that route so it's an interesting concept of of Where where god apparently put them in a position where they would have a very negative experience so that they could with experience testify to other people about what it is they should do you get that out of dnc 61. very interesting a lot of people are going to be going back and forth between kirtland and missouri and It might be like oh i'll we'll take the river now yeah and look eventually in in nauvoo obviously the latter day saints are going to use you know river traffic all the time right i mean uh you know they're even going to have the maid of iowa i mean they they're going to they're going to utilize it but you know frankly the Missouri river uh up to kansas city at that time is just not as navigable as the uh the mississippi river which was also filled with all kinds of traffic i mean if you read 19th century newspapers you will read catastrophe after catastrophe that occurs on the rivers the reality is it they are not easily navigable but they're so tempting to navigate because it's so much easier and So and you can carry so much more freight if you can navigate them but you know there's that danger and so um that really becomes the practice to try to avoid the water route uh to uh to to zion after 61 i mean they aren't going to have too many years to be able to worry about that because within you know less than two years after that they're going to be driven Out by mob violence but that is i had just never i'm so glad you talked about this because you know we've we've all been to nauvoo got to the end of that and we see the mississippi and you know there's that big keokuk is it a dam there damn there that slows the flow evens it out whatever i just had not thought of this and i was going to ask You compare the uh the missouri to the mississippi as far as width and stuff i'm not even sure boy i don't even know at the time right so the reality is the way those rivers look today to us especially near those urban centers is just nothing like they looked like back then we have we have flood control uh Levees all along them so what do we know we know from the time period that this particular stretch of the missouri river from kansas city to about you know a third of the way to st louis was particularly treacherous that that that that people got uh capsized that there were problems that there were there were boating you know accidents uh that occurred there all the time And so um you know we we don't really know what it would have looked like but our uh there's at least a pretty regular uh uh record of of shipping disasters along along the missouri there yeah and i i i like the principle here i like the principle here of you so you i put you in a difficult situation now we're going to get out of it but now you can tell other people right don't don't do that don't go that Way uh it i like that idea i think i think the lord sometimes uses that in our in our lives we can learn big-time lessons and he lets us learn them and then he's going to say pass that along i've seen it in other places too where god knows that there is no uh there is no replacement for actually having the experience i mean i guess we could all say that about Mortal life to begin with but but you know in the council of 50 there's uh an experience where the saints are are trying i mean the the members of of the council 50 are trying to write the new constitution for the for the the the location of the kingdom of god when they finally leave nauvoo and imagine the pressure of you know i'm writing the constitution for the kingdom of god right i mean obviously how am i going to get that Right and at one point they simply are frustrated and they just ask joseph well can't you just receive this by revelation because like anything we write is gonna just i mean obviously he's gonna throw it out anyway yeah it's gonna be wrong so why don't you just do it and joseph teaches them that actually no you need to create the very best thing you can create and expend all your efforts in This thing and then i'll receive revelation and the reason why he says there have always been some great big elders in this church who who you know come along you know who would criticize frankly if joseph received the constitution by revelation some of the people who thought themselves to be a little bit more intelligent than joseph would have behind the scenes being like well that's Not how i would have put it i don't know maybe if joseph knew what i knew about it then he probably would have changed it and so instead what joseph says is that that it's necessary for the elders to exercise all their efforts in this thing and then when they see that they cannot get the revelation and i can they will know from once wisdom flows so if you've already expended all of your efforts to do it Then you can't when joseph receives it go like well that's that's what i was gonna say yeah i mean you can't because well you had your chance to say it and you didn't say it because the revelation is actually coming through the prophet so it reminds me of doctrine covenant section one where write a preface toss it yeah well and i think that's exactly They talk to shreds they don't say that specifically in the council of 50 minutes but i think that the men involved who asked joseph to receive it i think that's exactly what they have in their mind i mean because it's w phelps it's john taylor that they know that that was the case with the preface to the book of commandments which became dnc one That you know they tried and joseph eventually received the revelation well look let's just cut out the middleman here let's not try and just have joseph perceive the revelation um you know like no it's good for you to try because then you can see then you can see yeah there's just a question that um for my i haven't done as much reading and studying as as you have Garrett but that maybe we overdo the idea of the destroyer riding upon the waters uh was it specific to everything that you have just taught us about the missouri is there more than that do we overdo it and didn't did ww phelps have a he has a vision where a vision of it right yeah he's he's the one who who sees the destroyer riding upon the water i mean It's unclear exactly when he sees that if he sees that while they're going through their crisis of nearly being drowned in the river and that makes sense that that's when they see it but it's actually uh it's not a solely w phelps vision while he's the only one who sees it there are other members of the group who say they hear it that they they can hear this Interact i'm not entirely sure what the destroyer satan sounds like but um whatever it is it was such that they all experienced this so you can look in the history of church volume it will say that the other brethren uh you know heard the sound but didn't see the vision so um interesting i personally and maybe i i'm way off here garrett you can correct me but i Think we've taken the idea that satan controls the water um i remember hearing that as a missionary why can't missionaries swim satan controls the water i'm like why do we baptize people in water why do we have to sacrament with water right yeah well i always use it as an excuse why do i shower satan controls the water yeah it's easy when you have a practice that's In place um to then try to find scriptural reasons for that practice that exists that that's if that's what the prophet wants us to do then that's what the prophet is going to tell us to do and and we have to be careful because as even though our sometimes are looking beyond the mark is spawned by fervency right it's spawned by a desperate belief Sometimes we get so enamored with what we think is going to happen that when that thing doesn't happen it becomes a faith crisis we see that with zion it's certainly what happened with ezra booth ezra booth joins the church because he sees joseph smith heal somebody he he skipped he's a methodist minister so he's certainly he's educated he knows the Bible he is very skeptical of what you know whatever it is that these these moments are selling right um but he witnesses joseph smith heal someone's paralyzed arm well that that's a pretty big deal and and to him that's it's essentially irrefutable he buys into the idea of zion he buys into to He a member of the church he's an elder he's going down on this mission but in his mind he had built up that they would have ridiculous amounts of success preaching that everyone would believe this and that essentially zion was going to drop down out of heaven that when they got to the spot of the place it was going to be the most beautiful place that ever existed and it was a dirty frontier gambling Town filled with houses of ill repute and and saloons i mean it was it was nothing that he expected now the thing is joseph had never said that joseph had never said hey we're gonna go down to missouri we're gonna baptize like seriously thousands of people on the way folks so it's gonna be but that's what he had come to believe And so when his projected reality failed to match the actuality of circumstances it it caused a faith crisis for um it seems to not help that there was the bickering and difficulties among the elders i think i think he thought the big argument between the elders of god should never have a problem with each other yeah i mean clearly right because Christ's apostles never argued about things you know i mean obviously they did right i mean that the the the reality of this false expectation can can really cause problems and you know i think that's well it happens it happens today all the time i had the expectation of church history and when what i when i started reading and learning it didn't meet my Expectation and no one ever you know how did we create that expectation where did it come and and you know sometimes things are are more innocent sometimes they're they're not i mean the reality is sometimes people deliberately do try to deceive people to create their own following you know in order to build themselves up i mean to be To to to uh you know try to to make themselves a light to demonstrate oh look i have this special knowledge and i just think it's it's i know history right well i mean someone listening to this who's another historian's like not as well as i do i'm sure okay not as well as you but but i mean look i i study history that's that's what my My uh you know my training is in but i'm not a prophet right i'm wearing a lavender shirt here for a reason i mean i i i don't have any access to what god uh how god interprets these revelations i can place them in historical context you know they have this terrible accident where they nearly all drown they don't receive the revelation right then they actually you know they kind of bicker and argue And and they have this uh discussion through the night and and and really by the next morning they've kind of come to terms with one another and it's in the aftermath of that kind of spirit of peace that's pervaded that this revelations receive which is part of the reason why i think god's saying listen your sins are forgiven you you know you yes you know you were You're mortal but now you you're coming on back and and you get that out of verse 37 um where uh he says you know in as much as you've humbled yourself before me the blessings of the kingdom are yours right um and may probably verse 36 is also very uplifting to uh you know your listeners yeah what i say to one i stand to all be of good cheer little children for i'm in your Midst and i have not forsaken you uh you know that idea that you're little children which is exactly what jesus you know uh you become like a child in order to inherit the kingdom of god um i i think that we feel an awful lot of times in life like god has forsaken us and i think it's in part because there's a lie that is repeated sometimes unintentionally and sometimes very intentionally That we tell ourselves that if only we're doing everything that's right the bad things aren't going to happen to us i know we talked about this a little bit when we talked about dnc three and and you know joseph and emma losing their first child um this is also happening in uh the aftermath of yet another catastrophe for uh joseph and emma right that they're going down there having lost Their their their next set of children um they're twins and i think it's really easy for believers who are sacrificing so much for god to start to wonder why it is there are still terrible bad things happen to them and um [Music] it it is hard i mean in the in the past a couple of months i lost my brother he died um very unexpectedly my youngest brother And he left two little kids under the age of two at home and uh and a wonderful loving wife and you know there's a lot of horrible people in this world and uh it you know they're still rolling around right and and and when you're faced with catastrophes like that it i think it's a natural thing for us to wonder you know god things have been really really bad Um why why are they so bad it's actually the question that has perplexed religionists in every religion from the dawn of religion and that is why is this world so terrible why suffer yeah why why is there suffering if there's a god who can stop suffering then let's see it um and i think god in these revelations and Further ones you know you saw this with the death of paulie knight he had to remind them that this world has tribulation but it's not about this world this is we aren't living about this world we're living for the next world what makes christianity great what makes the message of christianity great is that while this world is terrible at times they're suffering at times there is going to be a time when there Is no suffering there's going to come a time when there is no tears where there is no uh ill treatment of others where there is no bigotry and hatred there is going to come a time when everything that you've lost is going to be restored to you and that's in in this next life and i i think that that's part of what god is is trying to remind them here look You guys have had a rough go of it i'm still with you i haven't forsaken you life is just hard things are bad that's that's how this mortal life is and um you know i i hope that anyone listening i mean i hope anyone who's suffering you know has some kind of bomb that's given them from god that they they know that at some point they are going to be recompensed at some Point god is through the the power of the lord gonna gonna overcome their suffering and possibly not until the next life but that's the only one that really matters because that's the one that lasts forever that's the whole point of of what jesus taught again from the book of revelation right god shall wipe away the tears I'll do away with suffering and pain i love that verse 36. yeah it's beautiful you have good cheer little children i have not you might think i have i promise you i am in in this world you have tribulation but be of good cheer i have overcome the world but there's that waiting period president benson called it you know the wicked think they're getting away with something Or the righteous thing where's my blessings but there's there's a waiting period as was the case with job and joseph president and i think that having um that is there's such a hopeful thing that as as believers in god we know there is a reason there must be a reason and as you just said so beautifully garrett a god of justice will there will be uh Things will be restored to us i think if joseph smith if i got it right all of your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection by the vision of the almighty i have seen it joseph smith said i love that one yeah and and and that's what i think is it really what gives us hope and you know at the same time he tells them to be of good cheer i mean it it can be easy In this world that's filled with horrors um to you know curl up into a ball and think about how awful things are and you know dwell upon how terrible they are and yes look forward for that blessed day of zion or the resurrection or something that will end this horror show but that's not who joseph was um all of our accounts of him and even the account he gives him himself right that he had a A native cheery disposition right he suffered all kinds of absolutely unfair horrible things that happened to him and yet he greeted people with a smile he loved other people that were around him and and i i hope that that's what we can at least try to do that we can we can expect and understand that this world is filled with all kinds of horribly unfair Suffering that god has promised through his prophets will be made up to us in the next life in some way that we don't understand in a time we don't comprehend all of our suffering will be made up and that we can try to as cheerfully as we can go about the this life and recognize the blessings that we do have um at my At my brother's funeral service my uh my my older brother commented on the fact that my brother bryant when he was when he was born it was very bad delivery uh premature all kinds of complications and he nearly died and was in the hospital for a month and um my brother commented on it you know he said we can look at this as the most unfair thing that's ever happened Um and and the worst uh tragedy or we can look at it that you know we almost didn't have brian at all yeah we we should have lost him when he was a two-week-old and we got 37 years with him that we never should have had by a miracle he survived and and and and that doesn't fully assuage the loss but it it is at times like that that you are Grateful that you know that you are going to see your loved ones again and not because it's a myth or cleverly devised fables but because because joseph smith saw jesus christ jesus is resurrected and if jesus is resurrected then all of our losses are everyone we've lost is going to be resurrected so um i thought of a i thought of a book of mormon verse Uh this is alma the elder he's being he and his people are have been uh enslaved uh by amylon and this is what it says um mormon writes and now it came to pass the album the burdens which were laid upon alma and his brethren were made light the lord did strengthen them that they could bear up their burdens with ease and they did submit cheerfully and with patience to all the Will of the lord if it just says i'm totally fine if it says they did submit with patience to all will of the lord like i'm good there but he says they did submit cheerfully and with patience and that that reminds me of that verse 36 right that's be of good cheer cheerfully that's liberty jail too let us let us cheerfully do all things that lie in our power Out of 123 right yeah and garrett's the epitome of cheerfulness and yet here he's going through uh this this difficulty you i garrett when i heard about uh your brother i mean i the same thing happened to me in december my oldest brother passed away and it just was and then my father last month and who i i know you lost your father just a couple of years ago two years ago yeah But here uh you're a you're a you're the epitome of cheerfulness you really are um and it's not a fake cheerfulness you really the gospel has made you a cheerful happy person and that's not to say you're never sad and you never grieve um there's a place for those uh but i think what elder scott once said um these difficult things that happen to us Are laid on the background of a very happy life they're kind of laid as portions on a very background of a very happy life yeah it reminds me of that uh uh president hinckley quoting uh the the uh lloyd jones the the the uh oh jenkins lloyd jones the newspaper editor some cuts don't drop yeah exactly some beef is tough it's the rail the the rail journey right that's That's you know it's slow and chugging and problems all over but it it's occasionally you know uh blessed with beautiful vistas and thrilling bursts of speed and and and that's the reality i mean we live in a in a mortal world which i think you know as you get further on this this podcast you know this revelation will be revealed to people and and that is that a lot of this our Pre-mortal life is is one of the most important aspects of dealing with the suffering we have in this life because all of us chose to come here knowing not specifically what terrible things would happen to us but you know we've been around we saw what mortal life was that it was filled with inequity it was filled with disease it was filled with Sickness it was filled with betrayal it was filled with all kinds of horrible things and knowing that we still said if that's the only way i can become like my heavenly father and my heavenly mother then that's what i'm gonna do and so i mean we we chose to be a part of that and so um again i'm not saying we chose our individual Trials but we weren't tricked into this either right it wasn't like uh it was a it was a time share presentation and we were showing a whole lot of yeah like you know actually that does sound pretty good like no like if you go down i you can't even believe it i mean there's this amazing stuff down there uh wait till you meet the mosquito boy you'll love that i mean It's uh it it i i think we knew full well what we were getting into when we came into it and and we we we knew that it would be terrible and and yet we made that decision and we just don't remember that we made the decision and so um but you're right i think it's a crucial piece of our doctrine you signed up for this right it's it's really one of the only ways that we can sort out Uh the reason why there is suffering and we can sort it out in a way that others can't because if you believe god created everything out of nothing and created you out of nothing you know just whenever you were conceived and that you didn't exist before that well fundamentally then the suffering that you go through i mean not only could god have mitigated it i mean there's a real question as to Why god created you with an immortal spirit if he knew you were just gonna burn in hell forever i mean he already knows whether or not you're going to heaven why did he give you an immortal spirit then right like i'll create you out of nothing for my own will and purpose and also you're going to burn in hell for eternity you know there you go i mean right like not only what kind of being Is this right what kind of being is that so as as that starts to be revealed more the idea of this pre-existing life uh in joseph's revelations i think that helps an awful lot that this is not this is not our beginning this is this this is actually two isn't our end yeah certainly isn't our end it's uh elder neil a maxwell i i believe that was him that used the phrase about The knowledge of the pre-mortal existence as a wonderful flood of light does that sound familiar and it is it changes everything we're in the middle of we're in the hard part and it's a very short part of uh of this long existence and this little testing president packer you remember the the play in the plan he called it act one act two act three And we're in act two and he said it's characterized by tests trials temptations and even tragedies nowhere in act two he said appears the line happily ever after that's reserved for act three please join us for part two of this podcast

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