How to Find True Love | #ABtalks Special with Matthew Hussey | كيف نجد الحب الحقيقي مع ماثيو هاسي

A lot of people get themselves into situations where they're giving all the time. They never speak up about what they actually need. What are the biggest red flags people should be aware of when getting to know someone? If you're having an affair with someone who's in a relationship, it is really not hard to be exciting. Some people ghost as a way of being able to come back. You think online dating is good or bad? the general standard that online pictures it's so unattainable. How do you know when to let go of a relationship? Big question.

[Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] Hey everyone. So I finally sat with Matthew after many years of knowing each other digitally. We finally meet in person, humanto human. Um, and we wanted to really tap into his mind to help you and everyone, all of us, uh, to discuss love topics, relationship topics, uh, red flags, toxicity, and all of that. So, I think we enjoyed it. I loved it. It was a lot of questions. Big conversation. A lot of questions. It was like one impossible question after another. Yeah. I'll see you think so. I think you'll enjoy it.

Take notes. Put out your uh, notepad. Um, and of course, if anybody hasn't subscribed, always do. Our job is to give you the best of guests and the best of minds. And if you haven't met Matthew, find him everywhere. Find him, his wife, everyone. Not in a stalkerish way. Find them online. Support his book. Support his uh mission, I would say. And that's it. I hope you enjoy the convo. Me, too. I hope you enjoy it, everyone. [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] It's so interesting that me and you talked many years ago and we were supposed

to shoot and it didn't happen. And I never mind when things don't happen cuz I really believe in timing and I cook slow. So I like that. Yeah. I always say I cook slow but I cook well. If you quick cook quick, it's either going to be undercooked or burnt. It took me a long time to learn that. Uhhuh. Why do you say that? I don't know. I think I I was, you know, for years you want to grab at things and, you know, have a little bit of a scarcity mindset and it's taken me

time to I I guess kind of relax into life a little bit, allow things to happen. And I agree with you. I more than ever, I feel like that's a lesson I've learned in the last few years. Let things go at their pace. Doesn't have to be rushed. There's time. Yeah. I think look you we have to respect our minute effect on this universe you know we think we're all that but we're very like we're a small factor in whatever happening but you just do your part even if it's 0.1% and then the rest there's

so many factors that have to come together you know so I'll start with my first question as always Matthew how are you really doing I'm great I feel I feel really I feel more [Music] uh in touch with myself than ever. I think I feel more relaxed in myself. I don't always feel relaxed at work. I feel stressed a lot at work. But no, I feel I feel like I'm know who I am to a large extent and I'm enjoying myself. Yeah. How old are you now? 37. In 30s are I'll give you a different

answer in five years. The thing is, you know, every year, every year of our lives, we think we we've reached, you know, and I think at some point you think, okay, I actually don't know much, you know, you accept that it's like you said, in five years, I probably completely say a different answer or the similar but that's a form of, you know, that there's a there's a I think that's where relaxation can come from is that feeling of I it's I don't know and it's okay that I don't know. You know, when I think

about myself doing this, I've been doing this for a long time, way before I had any business doing it really. And back when I was 22, 23, 24, 27, you know, I felt all this pressure to to know the answer. And I I think more than ever, I don't feel pressured to know the answer. And that you can exhale to get there. Absolutely. I have so many cool questions that we worked on with the team because this is a special episode and I'm in LA and I'm with you and I met Audrey which is nice

cuz we see her online. You know, you see people online but you always want to meet energies. I'm a very in-person person I think. Um so we did some really nice questions. Um I'm looking forward to tapping into your brain. So, first one is what made you decide um to become a love and dating expert? The term still I don't even know if I see myself that way. The term love and dating expert still makes me tense up. I think I uh I really I I like people. I love people and and I've was always

fascinated by um understanding people better. I was a very shy, introverted kid. I was both. I was shy and introverted. I'm still introverted, but I'm a little less shy. And I mean, my first experiment was myself cuz I was not, you know, I felt like I held myself back in a lot of ways. I felt like I, you know, whether whether it was social anxiety or just a general kind of worrying too much, being in my head, struggling to, you know, I certainly at school could never have approached the girl I really liked. That was

that was too scary. Um, so I I was kind of my own first client in that respect. And I quickly learned that I didn't just love the ideas that I was learning that were helpful to me. I really enjoyed expressing them. And I I was I was pretty good at it. You know, I was not I I was rough around the edges. And I remember even now when I think back at the first talks that I gave, I cringe. But but I had something I had an ability to kind of fashion an argument to craft

a metaphor an idea and and I got some early feedback. I was very lucky that like a couple of people fed back to me like, "Oh, I there was one there was one guy that once came to an event and he hired me as a one-on-one coach after the event and at the time I I was very young and I said to him like, "Can I ask why did you hire me?" and he said, "You were the only speaker that when you were speaking, the other speakers were making notes." So, I decided you were the

person I wanted to to speak to. And I don't put that down to any like, you know, I look again, I look back now with a lot of like, you know, there was so much I was naive on and I've learned so much since then. But but I I I knew that I had the raw materials to get good at something and I feel really lucky for that. I feel lucky that I learned early that my in a sense my craft was crafting ideas well and putting them out there into the world and that became

how I got known was YouTube by by doing that from the age of 19. You know, it's it's a good sign to also cringe at our past selves because if we cringe, that means we've come so far. If it's you're okay, that means how much improvement have you made? Yeah. You know, so you there's another way of looking at it's good that we we look at how we used to, we're like, e, what the hell? No, I I I definitely have an affection for that for that guy. I have an affection for him, you know?

I it's a it's a loving cringe. That's a good That's a good way of putting it. Yeah. You're like, it's okay. Okay. Trying so hard as well. You know, you just try too hard. You impersonate someone that you saw or someone some speaker that you looked up to and you do a bad impersonation of them and I, you know, was that's what I was doing. So, it was cute. It was cute. I'm glad there's not too much video of it. Have you always been good at love? Oh, no. No. I I I you know, I

was always uh I was brought up to know what closeness felt like. You know, I I I was I have a very affectionate family. We're we're a family out of England, but we act like an old Italian family. Like English families are not known for their warmth necessarily. It's not one of our stereotypes, but my family, you know, we're we're very affectionate and we're very loving and it's all hugs and kisses all the time every time we're together. So, I I was lucky in that way. I I knew what it was to be affectionate. I

knew what it was to be close to people. I knew what empathy looked like, you know. I knew I knew what it was to be vulnerable and to talk about feelings, but I wasn't I wouldn't say I was good at love when it came to my romantic life. You know, I I didn't know what I wanted. I was, you know, I think yeah, just making a mess of things for a while. So, that that took time. That part took time. But I knew I I didn't have to learn I I had to learn a little

bit how to be loved, you know. I had to learn how to truly truly be vulnerable and not try to be not try to just live in this impressive state, but to allow someone to see the parts of me that I thought were difficult to love. That took time. Um, but being, you know, being in a close relationship, close as you can be without truly showing those things, I that I knew how to do. Yeah. Cuz, you know, there's an interesting uh connection or not even one, but it's I I come from a very close-knit

family, but it doesn't prepare you for romantic love. You know what I mean? It's it's a very different type of love. The the love with your parents or your love with your siblings. It's you're so defaulted at it. If you are born into it, it becomes so automated and that's all you know. But you said something interesting. You said to learn how to actually be vulnerable with somebody. I don't I find that that's a completely different education. Not the same. And and you could be in a close-knit family. I I wouldn't describe my own upbringing

this way, but there are people from very close-knit families who get told they're right all the time or who, you know, they're a little prince, you know, or so that when they go into a relationship, they're not much of a prince. It's a hard lesson to learn that someone's, you know, you're not perfect. And I knew a guy who said he he was in his late 30s and he had struggled to like find something lasting and commit. And his mom said to him, "When are you going to settle down?" And he said, "You know, mom,

I just keep I keep looking and I'm just not finding that person who's like got it all." M and she's he's he recalls the moment where his own mother looked at him and said, you know, I hate to break it to you, but you're not perfect. And I think that it, you know, that's just one of the ways that a close-knit family doesn't always prepare you because if you could be close-knit and people aren't objective sources with you. And so now it takes a partner from the outside to come and tell you the ways that

you're difficult and the bad habits you have and you have to adapt and adjust and sacrifice and compromise in all of those things that a real relationship requires. And that's also how much of ego restraint or control you have to accept that suddenly you're not a prince anymore. your prince with, you know, dots and pimples and all of that and inadequacies and or incompetence and you have to accept cuz maybe at home you're celebrated but now to the outside world she might be like you know your family is your number one fan but there's reality

and I think some people would get very offended because they're not used to that even if it's constructive criticism I'm not talking about a hater no and then and then they if if they really can't take that then they keep finding people who see them as a prince. True. And that's their pattern, you know, is that I'll find someone who never argues with me and just worships the ground I walk on. And you know, it that's a whole different thing. One of the first technical questions that I think people will care about is why are

we usually attracted to the wrong people? Big question. M different answers. I for many people they get attracted to what is known to what is familiar. And what's familiar might not make us happy but it is familiar. There's a level of comfort there. It might make us miserable, but that might be our comfort zone. Chaos might be our comfort zone. I used to I I remember I remember having a realization about I wasn't like a crazy late person, but I would notice a pattern in myself where I would like arrive 5 minutes late stressed and

cuz I hated I hated disrespect disrespecting people's time. But like I somehow would always end up in this situation where I was like I got to get there. I got to get home. I got to like and I would say why why do I keep doing if I don't like it so much? Why do I keep doing it? And I remember a moment where I thought my nervous system is used to this. This is what's familiar to my nervous system. being late even just a little bit enough that I have to rush. There's an adrenaline

to that. Now I'm now I'm rushing. Now game on. But leaving early, it's calm. And if you're not used to calm, if you're used to things being a bit chaotic, calm can feel deeply uncomfortable. I'm early. Well, now I now I'm just me and my thoughts. So I realized, oh, this unless I break the addiction to this feeling, to this kind of frenetic amplified tension that I'm used to, I'm going to keep seeking it, even unconsciously. I'd notice that I'm I'm early. So then I'd do something that would make me late at the last minute

because this is the energy I'm used to. And it took me a while to to figure that out about myself. And we all have our version of that of of what we're unconsciously drawn to of what feels familiar. You know, someone doesn't text you back for two days and and you feel that that horrible feeling in your stomach. You feel anxious. You you you like this person. You don't like that you like them as much as you do, but you do. now they're not texting you back and and you can't help it. All of a

sudden, the fact that they're not texting you back is is making them more interesting to you. What's going on there? Because someone who doesn't text you back shouldn't be becoming more interesting to you. They should be coming becoming less interesting. But for people who are familiar with that kind of that uh uncertainty, that feeling of having to fight for someone's attention, uh that that might be their comfort zone even though they hate it. M and meanwhile by the way actually giving energy to someone let's say they meet someone and that person is very kind, caring,

present, communicative, consistent. They might not know why, but that person might feel very boring to them and they go, "I just this is, you know, I know I know I'm supposed to, but this I I just don't feel it. I don't feel the chemistry. I don't feel And it can take a while to realize that what we're calling chemistry or attraction or passion is something else. is chaos, is uncertainty, is you know, is some old familiar pattern. And so a lot of the time our our instincts have been set up in a way that isn't

serving us. It is one of the things I say that I've had to really define what I mean when I say it because it goes against a lot of traditional advice is be wary of your instincts. Because people are, you know, one of the kind of common ideas is trust your instincts, but your instincts can be very dangerous. I had a boxing coach who taught me that. He said, we were in the ring one day and he said, "Your instincts will get you killed." He said, "When a punch is being thrown at your head, you

know what most people's instinct is to do? Blink." He said, "Tell me how much blinking helps you when a punch is being thrown at your head." Right? He said, "My job is to train people to turn blinking into blocking." And in our love lives, my job is to train people to take the instincts that they grew up with that may have helped them survive at a different time in their life, may have helped them get love or plate a parent or stop themselves from getting abandoned. They may have been necessary for their survival, but now

they're robbing them of any opportunity to find a healthy reciprocal relationship. So then it's about training new instincts and and that's very hard work. Listening to it, you know, it's hard and interesting. And I agree with you. sometimes the gut feeling or the instinct. I wonder sometimes how acc it's a nice idea that it knows and I do believe there's a lot to the subconscious and the subconscious can be alert to things that your conscious isn't but I agree with you that it's emotions can be very tricky. Well, and that thing you're talking about I've

come to see as intuition. I think intuition is there's a deeper wisdom to intuition, okay? That I think really is telling us something something, right? You your intuition might be telling you this person's going to hurt me one day, but your instinct is to keep trying with them. Your instinct is to keep investing in them. So, I think it can help people linguistically to separate instinct from intuition. Yeah. And what's the difference between love and infatuation? I suppose um because people, you know, they confuse them. In one month, the guy tells the girl, "By the

way, I miss you and love you." Is that love or is that you just like her, you're infatuated, you're attracted? I think there's a lot of um obsession in infatuation. There's a lot of projection in infatuation. You know, I I've created a version of you in my head that is perfect and that perfection is making me obsessed. Love is, you know, you re love is like actually being present with someone and actually getting to know them. M I I I think infatuation is there's a selfish nature to infatuation, right? It's you might want to praise

the person and you might want to do things for them and you might want to give all of your time and energy to them, but it's for you. It's not for them. It's cuz you want to be close. It's cuz you want to get something. Whereas love is generous. Love is about you. So would we say that love has a higher measure of selflessness versus selfishness? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz when we're infatuated with someone and they I don't know, let's say they're going out with their friends this evening and it makes us insecure. Infatuation will

make us try and control them. Stay home. I don't want you to go out with that friend. I don't want you to do that. I don't want you. I don't I feel it's making me jealous or infatuation makes you like hold on. Whereas love would make you say as long as I trust my partner if this is something they're going to enjoy then their happiness is what I want. I want them to be happy. If this trip that they're going to take, if this girl's trip or this boy's trip is going to make them really

happy and it's with their closest friends, why would I deny them that? I don't want to be that kind of teammate to them. I'm invested in their happiness. So yeah, I think love is is inherently less selfish or I suppose inherently unselfish. How can someone tell if they're with the right person? It depends, I suppose, what you what being with the right person is to you. But I I measure the right person as being someone that you um there was a there's a there was a moment I watched Bruce Springsteen in an interview and he

was talking about uh doing live shows and he said the audience simultaneously wants to be made to feel at home and be excited. They want me to play the oldies and play the ones that they know, but they also want to be surprised. They also want to be excited. There is there's a there's something in that as to what I think helps us define the right person because I think the right person is someone you feel at home with in the best possible way. a home to be yourself. You know, a home where you can

really When you're in your home, you feel you can sing and not worry that you're a bad singer. You feel you can get naked and not worry that you're not enough. You feel you can uh sit around and be you without judgment. And that a relationship I believe should provide that space. But to me the the being surprised part is the describes the kind of expansion that can happen in the right relationship where someone by being with them you feel you are becoming in the best way more of yourself. If you feel like you are

growing and you're you're expanding, you know the like that that I think is one of the most beautiful things in the world where you realize, oh, by being here I'm I'm learning, I'm getting better. Uh that that I think this that and and when you're in a safe place to be yourself, that's a great environment to be able to do that, right? Because you you're not trying to pretend to be anything else. you're accepting who you are, but you're also around someone who, you know, helps to raise your game. But it but the right relationship

is is compatibility is a very underrated part of the of of a right relationship. We, you know, I I talk about there being four levels in any four levels of importance in any relationship. The first one is admiration and that's kind of when it's on its own, it's dangerous and unimportant. That's like you could see someone in your place of work and think they're amazing and dream of being with them, but that's just you admiring them. That's not like there's nothing mutual there. It's not reciprocated. It's not reciprocated. The second level is mutual attraction. That's

where that attraction is reciprocated. Whether it's physical, mental, psychological, emotional, there's a there's a connection there. So, admiration, mutual attraction, uh compatibility, sorry, uh commitment is the next one. The third one is commitment. That's some we're not there's not just an attraction here. We're actually saying yes. We're both signing up for the same thing. And we have a lot of problems out there because people aren't signing up for the same thing. Yeah, we'll talk about that. But they're not calling it quits. But then once two people have signed up for the same thing, compatibility, that's

the fourth stage. And it's often overlooked because people want to believe that love is enough. As long as we commit to each other and we love each other, that's enough. And relationships all over the world prove that that is not the case every single day. You've got two people who have a different vision for what it is to live a good life. You have two people who one of them seeks adventure and the other one wants to stay at home. You have two people where one of them believes in honesty and the other one has

a very fluid relationship with the truth. And it doesn't work because they're not compatible, not because they don't love each other. So, uh, compatibility is, I think, one of those things that when people are talking about, I have such a great connection with them. You don't understand. Like, I've never felt this way before. Okay. That doesn't make you compatible, right? People can feel that way about a drug. You take a drug. I've never felt this way before. Fair enough. It doesn't make it a good prescription for the rest of your life. Do you believe in

soulmates? I don't believe in the one. I I suppose I'd have to define soulmate, but similar. Okay. I certainly don't believe in in the one. Do you believe there are ones like uh for any of us there is like a 100,000 great great compatible partners around the world and we'll call them all a bunch of soulmates. But then if you find one, yeah, you should try to invest in that one cuz you're lucky. One out that's 8 billion people or 9 billion people. So you found one of the 100,000. I think you're always lucky if

you meet someone you could spend your life with. Like there's something inherently lucky about that. The same way, you know, if you become a millionaire in life, you got lucky somewhere. You may have worked hard, but you still got lucky. Like it's there is an element of luck to this. that the the there are people that are that have the raw materials to be the right person for us. But I'm a I'm a big believer in someone becomes the one by the way that you invest in each other. Oh, nice. And and to me that's

the same as like you disco when you meet someone that has a lot of potential to be a great partner to you or to be someone that you could see yourself with and vice versa. To me that's like you you discovered a plot of land together. There's nothing on it but it's a great plot of land. You know it's by the ocean or great spot in the city or wherever your dream location is. It seems to have the the right criteria there, but there's still nothing on it. In order for there to be something there,

you have to have two willing builders. And if you don't have a willing builder, you really have nothing. You're just admiring the plot of land, wasting your life, right? You have to build something. And and the more you build it, the more it becomes this thing that no one else could have built because the combination of the two of you will build something that's truly unique. That's when it gets romantic. By the way, I I you know, people think that it's romantic the idea of the one. I don't think so really. To me, it's an

insult to like people who have spent 30 years in a marriage or in a long-term relationship who have inevitably had to weather storms together, had to show up for each other in hard times, had to have many, many arguments and come through them and and still decide to be together, have seen every part of each other and have still said yes. M like that to me is romantic. The the idea of like the one love at first sight to me is an insult to the work that that takes. But I do believe that someone becomes

the one. Cuz when you build something together, you really have after 25 years or after 5 years, you really have built something that no other two people could have built because it is the combination of the two of you and your unique energies. It's, you know, it's funny, Matthew, how we are, for example, if you're a good worker at work, like in your business as an entrepreneur, as a corporate person, and you really work hard and you don't mind it, and you you know, you know, it's part of the grit or of succeeding in your

career, right? And you never complain about it. It's funny how people have such a lazy approach to love that it should be automated and default. So they don't mind working hard on their business or their project or their book. It's they're like of course you have to work hard to have a good book, you know, but you have to work hard to also have a good love life. Yeah. But it's it's funny how I don't know if it's the movies or the music or something has made it feel like you don't you just have to

like bump into them in the supermarket. Oh, you want also cereal? And then suddenly everything is perfect. And it's not like that at all. And a very a very popular phrase is when it's right, it's easy. And I I know what people mean when they say that. It's not hard in the ways that a toxic relationship is hard. But easy is easy is a dangerous word because even in a great relationship, it's like over time there's going to be things there's going to be ways that you know you have to keep coming together. You have

to keep learning each other over and over again. You have to keep figuring out, oh, we've got two people with separate sets of needs who are deciding to be on the same path. That's challenging. It's hard enough to make yourself happy. I had a good combo with someone on this trip and we were like playing the we were talking about how you know if you're competitive and you're brought up in a in a time where you know the more women the more masculine and the more you woo people the better you are blah blah blah

you know the music video idea with 50 women and one guy with a bottle. So, so I'm like, if you're competitive and you're brought up with this false idea of masculinity, like, you know, conquer and get, and that's when you have so much woman, you're you're such a man. You're such a stud. And then we started to play with the topic. It's way harder to keep a great woman in love with you that even after 10 years, she laughs at your jokes and she still thinks, man, this Matthew guy, my god, like he just surprises

me. He's so cool. He's he's he's my backbone. That's way harder. If you're really competitive, you should be focusing on that feet. That's a very that's a very profound uh insight. It's a good point. It's a very good point because it it it's not You know what's not hard? Being exciting to someone who's having an affair with you. H if if you're having an affair with someone who's in a relationship, it is really not hard to be exciting. You're the mysterious person on the outside who never really has to be known, who never has to

wake up with them every day or go to bed with them every day, who shows up for these exciting moments and then disappears again with all of your mystery intact. That's easy. It's no different to being the player in life and going through life as a player getting everyone excited about you all the time. That's easy because everyone's they're just getting the trailer, right? We've all seen trailers where I was like, I I really want to see that movie and then you watch the movie, you're like, the trailer was better than the movie. You don't

you can go through life as a trailer like that. It's a great moment in in the movie. That's your new thing. you can go through life as a trailer for your movie. That's a book for you. But there's a in in the movie Goodwill Hunting, um there's a moment where Matt Damon's character is talking about how like the the woman he's dating is perfect right now. And Robin Williams is encouraging him to like, you know, go all in, like get closer. And he's like, "Why? So I can realize she's not perfect after all." And Robin

Williams says to him, "Well, maybe you're perfect right now and maybe that's what you don't want to ruin." And so many of us are we like to exist in those states where those imperfections are are never really known. We never have to be vulnerable. It goes back to what we were saying before. So I I love that point about you you the in many ways the most amazing incredible impressive thing you can do is keep someone into you over a long time. It was a really good combo and like it's flipped even my head because

I come from that culture and that pop culture and you know everything you see dictates that and I've said this to my son who's 14 now. I told him uh listen my love if you grew up to be a man uh always I would rather hear that my son had four really beautiful intimate relationships and the last one is the one for example that he fell in love with and built a family with I'll be so proud of you rather than 40 and you're so proud of the quantity and then where's the quality and all

of that so I told him seek intimacy don't seek numbers is we were brought up to look after numbers and we have to unprogram everything we were brought up to actually say intimacy is worth a thousand casual relationships for example. Yeah. So that's what I would love that generation to to seek. It's interesting because it works on two levels. One is the association with masculinity with what it is to be alpha and impressive and to have achieved something as a man in terms of your status and desiraability. And then the other side of it is

the uh the addiction of seeking novelty, the addiction of the dopamine rush of new people all the time. And uh it's that novelty it it becomes its own addiction. That could be a hard thing for people to separate from because once you now are going for intimacy, it's like it's, you know, it's the difference in between like a sugar rush and a slow burn food like you you don't get the same rush all the time from the slow burn, but but you get something much more valuable if you can connect to the value of it.

That's the thing. You have to be someone who learns to value is it I love I love all the things that are bad for you when it comes to sugar and pizza and carbs. You name it, I love it. But I love feeling good more. And so for me, even though those things are like, you know, I still feel the pull of them, I can't live that way cuz I'd feel like crap all the time. But you have to I think a lot of people have to get to an age where they are ready to

get addicted to a new feeling where the new feeling wins. For a long time, I think people play out those cycles that feel they feel good in the moment and they can be exciting, but it takes a while to learn this isn't really working for me anymore for some. Is there maybe this is a bit of a lazy question, but is there a formula to make love last? Because I know it's a bit annoying and trendy when people want to simplify everything like, "Oh, give me the three tips to have a happy marriage." If it

was three, everybody would be happy. So, but is there like a monumental thing, such a crucial thing to make love last? I listen I I'm asking the same question because I'm in a new marriage. You know, I've never been married before. I'm learning all the time. I don't profess to be an expert in marriage. you know, I I have spent a lot of time studying relationships and trying to understand what makes some relationships work and others not. Um, but I'm learning and I'm looking to people wiser than me and who have got more reps than

me for these these kinds of questions. Um, but I I when when I see people genuinely being a team together, that to me is always like the sign is are they are they really a team when we're having an argument? Like are we competing with each other or ultimately are we both looking at the problem together? Whether the problem comes from me or comes from you, are we looking at the problem together and going this the problem is the enemy. You're not the enemy. We're a team. I think if you can be a genuine team

with your partner, which can mean also looking at what makes them happy, like what what are their needs? What makes them a happy person? Cuz if I've got your back, if I if I'm worried about what you need to be happy and you're worried about what I need to be happy, then we can both relax cuz we're both covered. I don't you know, I think people get selfish in relationships and they get competitive when they don't really believe if I if I don't really believe you've got me, then I have to get myself. And now

now it becomes about me. M if I really feel like if I express something that's something that's really important to me either now or something in the future and you really listen to me and you're like if this is really what you want like let's figure out a way like I want to I'm I'm here if that's your dream let's figure this out and the same the other way round then you you breathe a sigh of relief cuz you're like I love that you use the word team. Yeah. And and that's what's always u funny,

you know, you see couples compete like it's a ego battle, right? And I think I I don't believe ego and pride so much has a place in a healthy relationship because it's like a cancer. And in my last relationship, I remember whenever I used to argue or we argue, I would say something like I would put out my hand at times, which can be probably somebody wants to punch you at that point, but I would say something so similar to what you said. I'm like, I'm not fighting you. If we love each other or we

like each other, we want to continue this. It's not the problem is there. Can we instead of do this fight, can we both look here? So when you do that, it's a sign of we're one by the way with us against. And I love how you also put it. So I always think in uh like I think sometimes it can help to think in in baby steps or inches like what's the what's the inch that I can go that you know cuz it's really hard in the middle of in the heat of an argument in

the heat of like a disagree. It's really hard to go, "Hey, I'm sorry. I love you. I'm like, it's really hard." But what's the inch that you could do? Like me and my wife, like sometimes it we'll be sat next to each other and we just had an argument and it's like one of us will feel like the little finger of the other one, like just touch a hand. Hello. Yeah. It's like just just this. And it's like the other person, it's like a just a tiny tiny olive branch and and the other person's like

feeling mad and they're in their active active state, but maybe they feel like, okay, you just you just made it possible for me to like put my whole hand on your hand even though we're mad at each other. And like by these inches, it's like you're each giving someone the permission to you come an inch, I come an inch. And it it I've watched that I've experienced that dissolve problems and arguments that in previous times in my life took days. But I have a counter. Let's say uh the the guy or the girl does the

pinky move, right? And they actually that's their mini 1 in um olive branch. Yeah. And it took a lot from them because we've been in those heated moments and you're like h okay whatever I'm going to like try. So you do that little gesture of putting your hand on her hand or whatever. What if she pushes your hand away? So now the olive branch that took so much of you to do just got shunned. Now it instead of it mitigating the situation or diluting it, it just erupted because you're like, "Oh, wow." So now your

ego is so hurt because yeah, you went beyond your usual self. I so firstly con congratulate yourself on being the kind of person that is big enough even in those moments to let your guard down or to put ego aside and to extend that olive branch because if you can celebrate that value in yourself as a very beautiful thing then you you'll appre appreciate your identity as someone who is bigger than that cuz ego makes you smaller in those moments. Ego makes you smaller. You you tossed away my hand. Well, screw you that. You know

what? Like that. Now you look bigger, but you're smaller. So celebrate the part of you that was big. And when someone I if that's their pattern that you're the one who's actually reaching out and trying to move things in the right direction and they just use that as a sign to make you work harder cuz now that's going to be their game. Oh, you gave me leverage to reject you. Now I'm going to enjoy that game. H having that conversation with them where you say, "Look, there's something I've noticed." Like when we're in the heat

of an argument or when something's going wrong, even when I'm mad at you or even when I feel like maybe I'm the one in the right and you're in the wrong, I see our love or I see us as being more important. So I I reach out, but when I'm the one who's always doing it, when I'm the one who's always making that first move, it that that makes me really unhappy because it feels like you're not you you don't show up in the same way as I do. And it's not about who's right or

wrong. There's going to be times where you might be wrong. And I still am like the relationship's more important and vice versa. But it, you know, it hurts me in those moments that I reach out and I don't feel you doing the same thing. Like point out that pattern instead of allowing someone to drag you into the mud again or you tried to have a higher moment and then you allowed them to drag you right back into the mud. M what's the biggest killer of relationships? There's probably a couple. Ego is a big one. I

think ego is big cuz ego makes you do exactly what you just said where you play games with someone, you try and have the upper hand all the time. Lack of discipline is one that's not talked about enough. Yeah. Tell me about that one. I think that it it requires discipline to have a relationship that is in shape. It requires discipline to say no to temptation to say yes there's novelty over here but I'm actually going to find newness in this relationship I have. I mean you've built a business. You know what it is to

be committed to that path. Like you can't be running around doing 50 different things all the time. you have to actually commit to building this pile. And there are plenty of people who are never successful in business because they never dedicate themselves to that to that one thing. They're they're constantly distracted by the novelty of a new idea. Someone just pitched me something and I'm like, "Oh, maybe I'll do that instead." And it requires, you know, I before I ever was committed for life to a relationship, I was I sometimes I thought I wasn't good

at commitment cuz I'd look at my relationships and I'd be like, I can't seem to go allin. And then I started telling a story to myself about like maybe I'm I maybe I just have a problem with commitment. And I was like, but I I've committed to this career path for years. I like I have really committed. I've said no to so much. I've said no to so much novelty. Like I don't have a problem with commitment. I'm just not applying it in this direction. And and I know that in my career that took an

extraordinary amount of discipline. And to go back to your point about why do we think it's going to be any different in our love life? I think one of the biggest mistakes we make is thinking that feeling is going to sustain us. And I think a lot of relationships fail because people their feelings shift and then they go, "Oh, I guess it wasn't the right relationship again." But it requires discipline, not just to grit it out when you don't have the feeling and you're like, "Well, I don't have the feeling anymore, so I'm just going

to grit through this now for the rest of my life." M not saying that sometimes I think when feelings come in waves sometimes when you're on a low wave you you do have to do that but sometimes the discipline is the discipline of finding the feeling again the discipline of going you know what how do I you know P said that the journey of discovery lies not in seeking new landscapes but seeing with new eyes. It takes discipline to say, "I'm going to see my partner with new eyes instead of seeking a new landscape." That

takes work. It takes creativity. So, I think I don't hear discipline mentioned a lot when it comes to relationship advice, but I actually think it's at the heart of uh I love that great relationships. Why do men cheat? God, I think there are far greater authorities on this than me. I'm thinking of Esther Pel as one of them. She she's she's the you know written entire books on this subject. I always have her in my head saying affairs happen like love and desire are two things that exist in a relationship and need to be maintained

for a relationship to be healthy. If there's love but no desire, that's that's going to be a challenge. I think she said once that des what affairs are what happen when desire breaks free of the relationship, which I think is a beautiful phrase. Um, I think there are a number of reasons people cheat. They cheat because they have no impulse control. It's true for some people. Some people cheat because they feel trapped and they're unhappy and they don't see they they they either don't see a way out or they're not courageous enough to to actually

end the relationship before doing the thing they want to do. Mhm. Or because they want to have it both ways. So I want to pretend to have one set of principles over here but also indulge over here. And as long as those two worlds, you know, as long as this world doesn't ever find out about this one, I can continue to play the character that has these principles over here and still enjoy this over here, which is I always think is a it's a really interesting disconnect that people are able to live with. I'm not

capable of living with that disconnect. It would it would destroy me. I'm such a guiltrone person anyway. I'm anxiety is my like default. So for me like I couldn't compartmentalize in that way. It would just ruin my life. Um but some people can some people can and um some people cheat out of insecurity. You know I'm I I I'm not I need to feel that thing that makes me feel like I'm good enough or I need to feel attractive or I need to feel like I can still do this. Some people treat cheat treat because

they have no character and and no empathy or they have a personality disorder. So it's a big spectrum. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of things. It's an interesting thing alto together. [Music] Um, this is, no, this one you answered about how you navigate when someone isn't giving you the same level of effort. You talked about how you address it. Um, this is a good one. How do you know when to let go of a relationship? You know, we were talking about how you invest and you build and the grass is greener where you water it

and and then, but when do you know, okay, no more watering. I don't this is just not right. Yeah. Well, you can't we don't have uh we we don't have a thousand lifetimes to run the experiment over and over again. So, in a world where we're, you know, uh we only have a few years, you have to be careful where you spend those years and how you spend those years. And so I clearly time is a problem and we have to decide what's an amount of time that I can give to this relationship to find

out whether it's right. And uh I heard someone once quote Christopher Hitchens who who said in life you have to choose your regrets. Nice. And if you know that you're going to be you're going to regret leaving this relationship now without a little more closure, fair enough. But there's going to be a time where the bigger regret is how long you stayed. So between those two is an amount of time you're willing to bet. But you can't bet your time in a passive way. You have to bet it in a very active way. And that

means saying to yourself, okay, if I'm already if I'm at the point where I'm considering leaving this relationship, I'm already some way there. So, this is this is the moment where I might as well put it all on the table if I want true closure. And that means let me be honest with myself first about what I need for this relationship to work. What am I missing right now? Cuz a lot of relationships end in some ways this is a bit tragic. A lot of relationships end because someone didn't have the guts to really say

what they wanted. So they'd rather leave than really say this is this is what I want. This is what I desire. This is what I need. And I think in some ways in some ways I don't know that this is true all the time, but we owe it to our partner to be upfront about what it is we need. like if I'm gonna stay here, this is why. And you don't have to frame it like that, but you do have to be upfront about what's making it hard, but you also in that time have to

you have to give on a level that gives that person the best possible chance at giving you what you need. You can't sit back passively in the relationship and be a bad version of yourself who's frustrated that they're not giving you what you need and go, I'll just give it another 6 months cuz nothing will change. But if you say, "Right, I am going to go all in on this for the next 6 months or three or whatever it is you want to bet. I'm going to really be the best version of myself. I'm going

to show up for this person in a way I'm really proud of and I'm going to couple that with being really really honest with them about what I need. Now if you say to me like I don't want to do I don't want to like have to do all of the then the relationship's already over. You it's over. You just haven't admitted it yet. Mhm. If the idea of for the next 3 months going all in makes you like want to run out of the room and go, "No, I don't want to do that." Then

it's over. If it's worth saving, it's worth putting in that effort for the next few months and asking for what you need. And maybe maybe your partner will surprise you. Or they won't, in which case you have a new form of closure. 100%. I was absolutely honest. still couldn't get there. I can now I can now leave with a sense of and that's way healthier because you you don't really regret you like I really gave it 100% you know not what if what if is dangerous. [Music] Um do you think online dating is good or

bad? I mean you can't deny how many people have have you know are together now because that existed right? There's something about there. There's there is something amazing about the fact that I could meet someone who goes to a different coffee shop than I do. You know that that's we have an we have a a problem. I forget what the term in economics is, but the the problem of um what's the word when it's lack of information. you you when when this when this person and this person could be great together, but they're never crossing

paths. There is something really sad about that. And what online dating does is it says you're going to get to meet someone who doesn't go to your coffee shop. Amazing. But now everybody's like h it's um it's a it's also a big problem in the same way that you know Instagram or Tik Tok or any of these things are a big problem for our ability to be present to enjoy things to focus on anything is you're you're in this Once you're on online dating, you are in the dopamine machine and you're either getting addicted to

it yourself or you're not, but you're dealing with other people who are addicted to it. And it's very hard to be mindful in order in order to know if someone's good for you. You have to be with them. You have to really like sit and be present with them and get to know them. M that's really hard when your phone's blown up with four more matches that you check when you go to the bathroom on the date or you get home and you've got three texts from other people. And this is challenging because it it

doesn't it's like if someone put if you were in your living room at home and someone put five screens on the wall and they played, you know, five of the world's greatest movies, one on each screen, and you watch them all at the same time for the next two hours. They're all great movies, but at the end of that, say, which was your favorite movie? Which one did you really love? I don't know. I was watching all at the same time. So, there's a there's a danger today. It's not an easy problem to solve, but

there's a danger today that we never get present enough with anybody to actually get connected enough to to inspire us to to keep going. Yeah, the social media world is a funny world because it's a very surfacebased world. You know, it's uh everything is surface. Your page, as a guest said, is only displaying your greatest hits. I'm displaying my greatest hits on your uh profile online. You're just mentioning the great things about you and what you do. It's all very surface and it's not even your greatest hits. It's what you think are your greatest hits.

Like I love this song. You think your great Yeah. It's that it's you. It's You think your greatest hit is the car you drive. You think your greatest hit is the abs you've been working on for the last six months that you show in that shirtless pic. Like that those aren't your greatest hits. It's it whatever our ego says is the most impressive thing about me. That's what typically finds its way onto that page. But you know your partner, the person who loves you, the person who one day really is like deeply deeply in love

with you. You'll probably be surprised by what their favorite things about you are. It would be nice to know and ask. We should put those on our profile. you know, like it's it's we're not even even when we think we're putting our greatest hits, we're not putting the things that people are really going to cherish about us. So that so it's a very very two-dimensional picture of us. Why do you think uh commitment has become such a big issue? Like nobody wants to commit or a lot of people don't want to commit. Is it too

many candy at the candy store? M I think that I think we do have a problem of that that just the the endless sea of people that we think are available. It's not it it's it's more complicated than just people who have lots of options find it hard to commit. It's that even people who are struggling more still feel like there's, you know, they go on a dating app and it still looks like a buffet, right? It it still has this idea, this feeling of there's always someone who might be around the corner who's a

bit better, who has a bit more of this or a bit less of that. And a and I mean I think it would be remiss not to point out that there is a the general standard that online pictures and profiles has set is bananas. Like it's so unattainable but it creates massive entitlement. M so we go on a date wanting someone who looks like all these pictures of people we've seen and then when an actual person shows up with imperfect complexion and you know they don't look that way and everything doesn't have that soft filter

on it and we're like like I've seen what's out there. I've seen what's I've seen this the standard that's out there. I feel like we're judging each other and ourselves by this crazy standard and it it does create a level of entitlement that has us like always always looking over someone's shoulder and uh that's man it's tough. In your opinion, is there a right time to get married for both men and women in this modern age? [Applause] Not our parents or grandparents time. Look, I I don't I don't know that there is. I I do

think you have to be clear with yourself on what your goals are at some point. You don't have to be clear about it at 25, but you I think at some point you need to be looking at what is it? What is it? What does a meaningful life look like to me? By the way, I don't have any um agenda around people getting married or not. I I think people can be together for the rest of their lives and not get married. like it it from my point of view it doesn't matter. I I certainly

have felt a shift with marriage but that's a personal thing to me. Like I I was not someone who grew up thinking I can't wait to get married. I was not someone who in my 20s was like I'm definitely going to get married. I didn't think that. I didn't care about marriage. I was probably a little bit more contrarian where I was like I don't care. I don't want someone telling me I have to sign him. Not even my partner. I was like, I don't want, you know, the the state involved in my relationship. Like,

I've got a sign of peace. Like, I was like that. And uh I I was surprised to learn that when I fell in love and had this amazing peaceful relationship and I saw this person as someone I wanted to build with for the rest of my life, I was I surprised myself with my thoughts. I think I want to marry this person. And I was like, whoa, where did that come from? And when I did get married, I did feel a shift. You know, I did feel like, huh, I feel there's a different kind of

energy that we're like really building together. You know, it felt like a statement. But I say that as someone who has no deep beliefs about tradition and marriage and I don't come from that place. Just that's my personal experience. Um, so when someone chooses to do that, I think it's entirely up to them. But what I would say is especially when people are looking at having kids, if your view, if your belief is you want to have that within a marriage, not everyone's is, but if that's your view, if that's your belief, then suddenly it

does matter when you get married. Because there is a very real biological timeline especially I mean for men and women but for women especially you know men still can have their challenges and they do much more than people talk about but but you know for women we know those challenges uh are different. We know that there is a real biological component to I I have a window that is earlier than a man's in which I if I pass that window I don't get to do that myself biologically and if that's the case then then it

it does matter when you get married if you believe that you want kids in a marriage and and you have to this is this is where you have to start to get what's the word you You have to start taking those goals seriously in your decisions. If you're having a fun time with someone, but that person's 9 years younger than you and they're in a completely different stage of life and they're not looking for any of that anytime soon. And you're 32 and it like you're looking at your timeline and going, "Well, I don't have

all the time in the world." That might be a very good reason to say no to that relationship. Even though it's fun, even though it it feels good, even though you really like this person, that that might be a reason to say no. But you can't say no if you haven't been honest with yourself about what it is you really want. And there's a lot of people in their love lives who have not been honest with themselves about what they really want because it scares them. Because if I was really honest with myself about what

I want, then I then I'd have to make some harder decisions now. So, I'm going to your books. You have two total. Get the Guy and Love Life. Yeah, Get the Guy came out over 10 years ago now. And that was kind of a my take on a very practical approach to going out there and finding love. And then I wrote Love Life, which just came out this year. Okay. And that's a a deeper book about what gets in the way of us finding love and what happens to us on the journey to finding love

that can make life hard. Okay, I have questions from both. So, let's see. What's the biggest mistake people make when they're looking for love? This is from your in regards to your first book because I know you talked about it. Oh man, whether I give the same answer, I don't know. I I I imagine in that book I probably talked about No, I'd rather actually I like your Yeah, your modern answer. [Music] What's the biggest mistake people make? Because you know people can be love desperate and when you're love desperate you're love drunk intoxicated. I

think everything is nice or or you cover the flags with flowers. Yeah. I think uh people aren't people don't date according to what is actually going to make them happy. They date according to what satisfies their ego or what feels good in the moment um or what is familiar. But they don't listen to the part of themselves that says this person's not that they don't actually work for you. They don't truly care about you or they're very selfish. They don't think about you. They aren't a great teammate to you. They're not really investing in you.

you know that this person or in some cases, you know, I work with people every day who are like they say that they really like me, but I only hear from them once a week and yet they're still pining after this person. This person makes them miserable. What I say is we have to reorient our focus away from how we feel about someone onto how that person makes us feel. Again, reorient. We have to stop asking how do I feel about this person and start asking how does this person make me feel? When I say,

"How do I feel about this person?" I go, "Oh my god, they're so attractive. They're so charismatic. They're so sexy. They have this. They have that." We we talk about all of the wonderful things we see in that person. But that person can make you miserable. You can feel anxious all the time. You can never feel good enough. You can feel completely unseen because it's all about them and there's no space for you or they never asked you questions about yourself. So, you know, we're we we date based on how we feel about someone, but

not necessarily based on how someone makes us feel. I like that. What else do we have for you, Matthew? What's the biggest misconception women have about men? That they're not sensitive. Nice. That's true. That they that they don't feel things the same way that women do. You know, I there's actually a bit of a misconception among a lot of women that that I've heard and witnessed where if a if a if a woman does to a man what she doesn't like when it's done to her, it doesn't hurt his feelings the way it hurts her

when it happens to her. You know, if if if he just fades, then that's really really painful. if she just fades, but he's a guy. He's he's fine. Like, he's the men don't men are incredibly sensitive. And um and I think a lot of women never see that side of men. So, they don't Don't forget, Matthew, men like there was this whole research on how parents treated daughters differently than sons. So your daughter falls and scratches her and you're like oh baby are you okay? The boy comes and like they're like get up it's fine

you're okay. Yeah. How dismissive. Okay. He's crying. Both both human beings were crying cuz they're in pain. One is dismissed. One is cuddled. So you multiply that by years. As men a lot of us are not educated or allowed to express or shamed for expressing like oh you know you're a man shut up. I mean, I remember I remember in my early 20s being heartbroken over something and a guy a friend of mine at the time I he asked me how I was doing. He didn't mean about the breakup. He just said like, "Hey, how's

it how you doing?" And I was like, I'm really to be honest with you, I'm I'm like struggling. um you know this ended and I feel feel rough and whatever and he just goes grow up mate. Exactly. He that was his he didn't miss a beat. That was the first thing out of his mouth. That's him saying I don't want to listen to your vulnerability at all and I'm not comfortable with my own. Yeah, it you know it's what a lot of people don't forget is that men some men are lucky enough to have very

emotionally articulate male friends. And I have surrounded myself with men like that as an adult. I'm sure you have too. Like I don't have friends who are not emotionally articulate. You know it maybe a couple but not like people who I'm really close to. Yeah. Um, a lot of men, maybe most men don't have that. I agree. They don't have men that they can go to. So, it's not just that they're not confessing their feelings or their vulnerabilities to women. They're not doing it anywhere. I don't think they even are familiar with that language. Yes.

Don't know. I don't think so. H, this is good. In short, how can women attract and keep a man without losing themselves? Well, re recognize that you're giving. The part of you that gives is an amazing part of you. But you can't you can't give an amount that if you had to give that way for the rest of your life would sink you. You you have to give an amount that allows you to still uh be whole. It allows you to still do the things you need to do for you. And also, um, you have

to be brave enough to say to someone to tell them what you need. Like a lot of people get themselves into situations where they're giving all the time because they never speak up about what they actually need. M I I mean I can even relate to times for me where, you know, I'd be in a relationship and I'd need some alone time or I'd need to just like I'd really let's say like I love reading so I'd be like I really want to read but I didn't feel like I could say I just want to

can I would you mind if I just took the next few hours to read and to not do anything like I could just sit here and read? I was too afraid that that would that would like be a diff that would be not be met with support or that so I didn't say it. So now I'm just not getting what I need. We have to be brave enough to say this relation, if the goal is my happiness, then this relationship only works if I can get my needs met while simultaneously showing up for them in

the way that they need. It only works if that's true. So I think we have to have a little perspective on it. going in that this it comes from so much from insecurity from pleasing fing you know a very common response that people grow learn growing up is fing uh well let me worry about you don't worry about me um and it it sounds like a lot also is self self boundaries yes you know when you really love yourself you you place boundaries to protect yourself and you realize that a relationship that doesn't allow you

to have boundaries is a is a terrible relationship. If you're if you're punished for having boundaries around yourself, then then that's the time to get out. Wow. Yeah, that's true. Um is love language compatibility. You know, a lot of people like to read the five love languages. Is love language compatibility important to make a successful relationship? I think it's like there's a it's important to the extent that let's say if your love language is touch and you have a partner was a chair. Yeah. Exactly. Then you then you might have a problem. M you know

but if you have a partner whose love language is words of affirmation and yours is acts of service then I just need to what we need is to care enough about each other and our happiness that sometimes I give you what you need even though that's not something that matters hugely to me and sometimes you do for me what I need even though it doesn't matter hugely to you. I I do think that we can do things. Part of the act of generosity is I do something just because it matters to you. It doesn't need

to matter to me. I do it because it matters to you. And beautiful relationships are formed on that. Where it gets harder is in areas where the experience for it to be a pleasurable experience needs to be shared. Right? So I don't it you know if you're if you really enjoy getting your shoulders massaged it's not necessary to know that your partner is having the most wonderful time whilst massaging your shoulders. You can just enjoy a shoulder massage and the fact that they're being generous by giving you one. M but when it comes to sex,

if repeatedly you're in a situation where one person is having a great time and the other one doesn't want to be there, that that's going to be very very hard. That's not true. I don't believe that's true all the time. I believe there are situations where we are generous sexually with each other because the other one is in the mood and we're not. But we're like, if you're in the mood, whatever, it's fine. like I'm doing this for you, but if if that that's just a mismatch of like daily, you know, we're not in the

same place at five o'clock in the afternoon or but if you if sex or intimacy matters to you and it does not I I have no interest in it then then we're going to have a real challenge. And the other book we you talked about different things and I I placed some questions. So um boundaries for example are such a difficult thing to place in any kind of relationship. I mean even with your family with your colleagues especially love relationships it's harder. How can you set healthy boundaries? Well practice I mean setting boundaries is a

muscle. M it's not something you don't have to become so confident that you just effortlessly set boundaries all the time you have to become a person who sets boundaries setting small ones first saying look I'm it firstly it helps to get so disillusioned with a life of not setting boundaries that you realize you have no other choice anymore. That's useful. It's not it's not about whether I can or can't set boundaries. It's that I'm I'm I have to it's necessary. I can't be a person who doesn't set boundaries anymore because I can't have that feeling

again. I can't ever go back there. So, that helps. Necessity is the the mother of change. But if when you set a boundary, it's a bit like a stake in the ground that says I matter. And when you set more of those, you're reinforcing this message that I matter. So we don't have to worry that like I have to get to this place of ultimate self-love before I set a boundary. Mhm. Look, I had a woman that I coached who she realized like she was going on dates and then at the end of the date

she would hook up with someone and the next day she would feel like it didn't feel good. Like why did I do that? It was fun the night before but now I don't feel good. And she got to a point where she said, "You know what? This just isn't working." Necessity, right? it was it became necessary to do something different because she was like this just doesn't it work for me. So she said I just don't want that feeling anymore. It wasn't that but she'd become so confident. She just said I don't want that feeling

anymore. So the next time she was on a date she said I was on a date with this really attractive guy. It felt like he was out of my league. So like there was this desire to please anyway and I was excited to be with him. And so like at the end of the night he asked me to come home with him. And she said even under those circumstances I said no. And I went home by myself. And she said I woke up the next morning and I felt so good for having done that. Even

though it was hard the night before, I felt really good and it was like a signal to myself that I was taking myself seriously and this identity of h being a person who takes themselves seriously. I just provided evidence for that identity. I put weight behind it. So where I would what I would encourage people to do with boundaries is not to see it as something that you have to become this incredibly confident person to have a boundary but instead to realize that a if you can get to a point where you realize it's necessary

because the old the thing I feel when I have no boundaries sucks so badly I hate it so much that I have to do something different Then you say, "So, I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm going to do something different." And when you actually do something different, you're starting to build an identity that is different from the identity you had before. I am now a person who stands up for themselves as evidenced by the two things I did this week to do that. Give evidence to the identity. I love that. [Music] Um, maybe

this is a bit general, but let me know if it's a question you'd like to answer. What are the biggest red flags people should be aware of when getting to know someone? Well, I if they're completely uninterested in you, but you know, they spend all their time impressing you, all their time talking about themselves, but have no interest in you whatsoever. And even when you try to direct the conversation towards yourself, they're not actually listening. They're not actually interested. Um, if they try to move at the speed of light and you're like, "This feels really

strange or inorganic." Especially if you try to slow them down and they're not interested in slowing down or they try to make you seem like you're wrong for wanting to slow down. Um, if they uh start professing their love to you halfway through the first date, that's usually a red flag. That would be so weird. It happens. I'm sure it happens. Um um if they're inconsistent, inconsistency is a huge red flag. M if someone tells you they had a great time on the date and they'd really like to see you again, but then you don't

hear from them for the next 5 days, it's inconsistent. If they text you for 3 days and then you don't hear from them for a week, it's inconsistent. It doesn't mean they're a terrible person, but it's a as far as like this person being a good investment. It's it's a giant red flag. If someone says to you after not speaking to you for two weeks, I really want to see you. I miss you. What are you up to tonight? Red flag. Cuz what you're doing right now is out of sync with the energy you've had

with me over the last two weeks where we've barely spoken. M inconsistency. What about you know this is a topic I think weirdly such a common word but I don't think people address how bad it is and it's ghosting. Everybody knows the word and they laugh about it but it's a really bad thing in my opinion. In my opinion, it's something very self-centered, very cowardly, and you leave the other person anxious and wondering what happened and building theories after theories of maybe a bus hit you, maybe you're maybe they find you boring, and I find

that a a very worthy topic of addressing. You know, we laugh about it, but it's it can me make people really have an issue with the whole thing. I didn't want to use the word trauma cuz it's overused, but No, but it it can be I mean it could be extraordinarily painful. It could be very disorienting. It could be it can make you feel you're crazy. M um I think that we have to get more into the habit of seeing someone ghosting as a uh response system on their behalf that should be deeply troubling to

us about the other person. And it's almost like any other concerns we have around why they ghosted us or what we did wrong or whatever are pale in comparison to the fact that that is their response system to dealing with an uncomfortable situation. Right? Well, the facts, everything is everything else that you might imagine. They don't like me. I did something wrong. I said something this. I whatever they that's all story. What we know for sure, unless something tragic happened to them, is this person's reaction to a uncomfortable situation is to do the most uh

unempathetic, callous thing to somebody else. that instead of telling you that I don't want to see you again or I want to this isn't right for me or I don't feel it or whatever it may be, instead of having an uncomfortable conversation, this person just disappeared. Yeah. That that tells you something deeply troubling about them. M that should make you genuinely I don't mean this in some like platitudinous sense. I mean in a very real way that should make you realize you dodged a bullet because there are people who are in fiveyear relationships or 10year

relationships and then get ghosted. M there are people who dedicate years of their lives to someone who then just ghosts them. If you got ghosted by someone in month one, as painful as it is, you dodged a bullet because that person showed you who they are real fast. That was their response system to not if even if it's they don't like you anymore or they didn't they're just not feeling it. That was how they responded to that situation. That is not a person you want anywhere near your life. Do would would you have sympathy though?

Like maybe that person just doesn't have the tools to tell you that what you said bothered them or God knows what. Maybe. even even if you come from a place of distant compassion for that person which is what you're describing um it doesn't change the fact that that person will make a terrible and dangerous partner no matter where it comes from that's a that is not some if god forbid you ever aligned your life with a person like that because once you start getting in deep into a relationship, marriage, kids, all of that. The stakes

get real high. Absolutely. So, you you be glad that that didn't happen to you at a time with this person where the stakes were high. And you know what I would add? And this is I think an important point for all of us and you're not their therapist or life coach to teach them. No. You see, that's what a lot of I know I've been through that, but a lot of people they think it's it comes upon themselves to train or to guide or to motivate, but it's not really your job. There's one more thing

I want to add because it's important. Some people ghost as a way of being able to come back. How? Because if you ghost, if I ghost you, Yeah. There's no four weeks from now. No nail in the cup. I want some attention. Yeah, I can come back. Really? Sorry I didn't get back to you. I was Oh my god, I had a crazy month at work. My dad went into hospital. This happened. Whatever. Like, I'm so sorry, but like what are you up to this weekend? If if I ghost you, I don't have to explain

anything. But if I tell you, I'm sorry, I'm not interested in developing this any further. Yeah, it's a nail in the copper. You might go a different direction, but if I ghost you, I might, if you're the per type of person that doesn't go through all the logic I just said. I might actually be able to leave the door open. Okay, this is a good one also. You might help a lot of people. How can someone get over heartbreak? A tricky one. Well, I well, we have there's no um there's nothing anyone can say that

will mean you don't experience heartbreak. So, that's number one. You have to heartbreak is heartbreak is part of life. It's gruesome. It's the worst. And anyone who's been through it and come out the other side knows that there is actually something to be gained from that experience. It makes us more interesting people. But what we do have control over is whether that heartbreak is acute and resolves or whether it becomes chronic. And whether heartbreak is for a period of time or chronic depends on the story that you are telling yourself about this person or this

situation. M um if you tell yourself a story that that person was the love of your life and they left you and your soulmate is out there now getting married to somebody else, then your heartbreak is going to be chronic. If you tell yourself, "I'm heartbroken because I really thought this was my person, and it turns out they weren't, and I'm so disappointed, and I'm so hurt, and I'm so sad, you're then you're going to be okay." There's the heartbreak of disappointment, which is okay. You know, you can grieve that they weren't the one, but

if you grieve because they were the one, that's a kind of grief that stays with you for a very long time. So, you have to change the story. You have to adapt the story based on the new information. If someone doesn't want me, they they they cannot be my person. And and also cuz there are times where we feel we screwed it up. There are times where we feel like maybe it was me. Maybe I messed it up. M um but the antidote to that, this is where I'm going to get a little heady, but

the antidote to that I believe is to understand that whatever has happened in your life has been a result of you doing the quote best you could. up until now. Now, in some cases, your best might have been disastrous. I know my best has been disastrous on occasions and but it it was if I if I was going to do better, I would have done better. I did exactly as well as I could have done in that moment. And when I anytime I think to myself, I wish I'd have done that instead. I wish I'd

have made a different decision. I wish I'd have taken a different path. I wish I hadn't done that. I always think to myself, okay, write a science fiction novel without if there's in this world. what I did was exactly what I was always going to do. And maybe in some parallel universe somewhere some version of me did a different thing but it wasn't me in this universe. And and when I look at life through that lens, I go, I I might be able to do better now with the information I have, with the wisdom I

have, with the mentors I have, with the inputs I have, but I was doing what I could with the tools I had then. So my job is not to keep wondering about what if I had done something different. That's science fiction. What we can do is recognize that if we stay locked in our sadness over what has the opportunity we lost or the person we lost or we are in real danger of missing the countless stories, new stories whose origin begins precisely where we stand right now and that starts to get really really exciting. There's

a a moment I put in my book from JM Barry's book Peter Pan. The book itself is a beautiful book. If you haven't read it, it will make you cry. I mean, it gives me goosebumps talking about it. But there's a moment in the book where uh Peter is he's about to die and he's he's on a rock and um you know the the author JM Barry writes that he's he's on this rock and he he has this moment of fear because the tide is rising and he's going to drown. And he in this moment

he this moment of fear passes and then all of a sudden he's standing upright on the rock and he says to die will be an awfully big adventure. And that line never it made me cry when I read it and it has never left me because we are all going to die many times in our life. Someone we love is going to die. Someone we love is going to leave us. We're going to have a heartbreak at work. Something's going to hurt us. We we're going to suffer many deaths in our life. But every time

we die, that can be the beginning of a new adventure. And and if we stay locked in our sadness, sadness is okay, right? Sadness can be good. I mean, we why do we watch sad movies? We like feeling that feeling. Sometimes we want to feel sad. We watch a sad movie cuz we want to cry. We want to feel that. But then we stop that movie and and we go and live our lives and we play a different movie. If we play the movie of our heartbreak like it's the only movie available to us now

that we're fetishizing that sadness. And there are so many other movies to watch in your life. It would be a shame to deny yourself those movies. What does uh your wife mean to you? Oh my god. I mean, she's home. She's home, you know. I I She's uh Yeah. I don't I I can't imagine doing this without her, you know. I I She's loving her is so is so fun and so rewarding and so exciting. and being loved by her is like a it's you know if I lost my wife it would be like I'd

be losing a perspective on myself that I've come to I I've come to really love you know through her eyes I've been able to see myself in a stunningly beautiful way that um it'd be like I'd be losing a vantage point on me Um, so it's just fun. It's it's I've never had more fun going through life because I feel like I've got this, you know, the ultimate teammate. That's how it feels. Like whatever happens, there's a there's a there's a moment in uh uh uh I don't know if you ever saw I don't know

if you're a South Park fan or not. I know. Yeah, I've watched it. There's a great moment when Trey Parker and Matt Stone, there's a documentary about the making of South Park. I think it's called Six Days to Air. But um there's a moment where Trey Parker is being asked, "What if you finally get cancelled? What if you just because you've been uncancellable so far? What if you say the one thing or do the one thing that means?" And he's like, "Oh, we're always ready. We're always ready for that moment." And he said, "We the

fishing rods are in the car." He said, "Anytime if if finally they say enough, we don't want you anymore. You're cancelled. The fishing rods are in the car. We're going to drive out to the lake and we'll live there and we'll fish." Audrey's my fishing rods. It's like everything else is play really. Everything else for Audrey and my family, everything else is play. This is play. Going and and building a company or helping people or doing all of these things that I love doing, it's play. But if at some point everything went wrong and none

of it was possible anymore, Audrey and my family are my fishing rods, you know, we we I have a whole world that's already enough for me there that you know, this becomes uh the wonderful extension. And I think that's that to me is truly what a relationship should be is this foundational solid base that makes you braver out there in the world because you're like I'm already loved at home. Like it would be nice if you loved my book. It would be nice if people really loved me. It would be but I'm already I'm already

loved. And that gives you a strong base from which to strike. What took you so long to find her? Cuz you've been into this. I was an idiot for many years. I was an idiot. You're not a normal guy. Meaning a normal guy is going about his life and then he pops into a relationship and then he learns and maybe gets married and gets divorced. Like that's because he's not into the relationship science. You're a human that's been curious about the relationship of science. So people might have expected you to be hitting the jo jackpot

every 5 years, you know. Yeah. But I I I you know, only half in justest do I say I was an idiot. I mean I I I hadn't figured a lot out. I hadn't figured out what a real relationship was for me yet. I I I'd helping people create opportunities in their love life. I was really good. People come up to me every single week and on the street when I was in coffee shops and tell me, I'm I have an amazing partner because of you. I'm in I'm married now because of you. I'm And

in a way, they were learning something I hadn't yet. Right? Everything that I was helping them do was helping them get into situations that they now had the tools to sustain. But I myself was still uh constantly in a mode of novelty, constantly in a mode of um being selfish and not being willing to actually like fully give to another person. Like I was I I wasn't I always say I was good at enjoying relationships, but that didn't make me a great partner. Like being in a relationship isn't the same as just enjoying the feeling

of a relationship. Being in a relationship means actually showing up for someone. for somebody that's handsome, that has a good mind, who is learning about this, what had to switch for your being to be opening a window for an Audrey? You know what I mean? I had to start to value something else. I I had to start to value something other than what I had been valuing until that point. You know, it had to stop being about ego. It had to stop being about novelty. It had to stop being about like the highs of dating

and dating different people and it it had to become about oh I'm actually a this isn't working for me like this is clearly that's the thing I where I was my self-awareness was strong is this clearly is not where happiness lies for me. M I don't feel good. In fact, I feel anxious and I don't feel good. I'm hurting other people. I'm hurting myself. This isn't this isn't good. Like, I don't like this. It's something else I'm looking for. And and when I met Audrey, she brought so much to the table because by I was

already searching and then I met her and she the way she would be with me was very unique. I mean she was simultaneously someone I was really attracted to. But when I was selfish, she called me out on that. She was very honest with me about when she was feeling like I wasn't giving enough. When I was, you know, inconsistent in some way with communication, she would point out that I was inconsistent or that, you know, this wasn't going to be enough for her. It was very it was very direct and but loving compassionate loving

kind direct and even when we would argue there were times where I'd get to the end of an argument and you instead of having that righteous feeling of like you know someone else had done something that I could point to and be like they really like they were so unreasonable in that argument. I'd get to the end of an argument with Audrey and I'd be like, "What is wrong with me? Why did I do that?" Like, she was she was the grownup there and I was the child. And when that happened be Now, I credit

this I give her a lot of credit, but I credit me with being the kind of person that was had a growth mindset. So when I came across that, I didn't run away. When I came across that, I said to myself, "Oh, this person's I'm I'm learning a lot. I'm learning a lot by being with this person." You know, there there's a I forget maybe it was James Hollis that said, "In these moments, you get to ask yourself, does this will doing this diminish me or enlarge me?" And every step of the way with my

wife, I felt like this is enlarging me. This is not diminishing me. This is making me bigger. Last one. Uh, love in one word. Oh my god. Love in one word. I don't know. Kindness. I think kindness has always meant so much to me. I I I think I I think it's what I value probably more than anything else in this world. Kindness. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. I loved it. It was a great [Music] conversation. Heat. Heat. N. [Music]