Former Mafia Boss: "I Was Running The Biggest Scam In The World! $1.4 Million A Day!"

in your time in the mafia what did you witness I'm going to be honest with you we're bringing in $910 million a week I was arrested 18 times and I saw guys that died for the wrong reasons but I'll tell you one thing Steve you're not going to want to hear this but it's the truth Michael Fran one of the highest earning mafia members turned motivational speaker who is sharing the ruthless lessons he learned about business leadership and resilience so there's two levels in that life you're either a racketeer or you're a gangster and I

was a racketeer meaning was elevating the family by making them money I had 18 companies defrauding the government out of tax bringing in $10 million a week was living a liftime in a jet playing at helicopter what was the most cash you ever saw 40 50 million in cash in cash now you can learn so much from the mafia you know I give you an example the art of negotiation this is a tremendous technique to get what you want I always want so here's what you have to do now you may be making all this

money but we have rules and you don't violate the rules because the consequences are severe was a that had to kill his father and then a very dear friend of mine he did something that was total violation of our life and he ended up getting killed but the one thing that really hurt me bad my dad had a powerful position in the mafia and he betrayed me that was rough Steve the thing is I've done a lot of bad things in my life but it's not the path that I wanted to take I realized I

got to get away from this like you don't walk away from this life we're not allowed to do that when does it all come crashing down for you this is a sentence I never thought I'd say in my life um we've just hit 7 million subscribers on YouTube and I want to say a huge thank you to all of you that show up here every Monday and Thursday to watch our conversations um from the bottom of my heart but also on behalf of my team who you don't always get to meet there's almost 50 people

now behind the dire of a CEO that work to put this together so from all of us thank you so much um we did a raffle last month and we gave away prizes for people that subscribed to the show up until 7 million sub subscribers and you guys love that raffle so much that we're going to continue it so every single month we're giving away money can't buy prizes including meetings with me invites to our events and ,000 gift vouchers to anyone that subscribes to the DI SE there's now more than 7 million of you

so if you make the decision to subscribe today you can be one of those lucky people thank you from the bottom of my heart let's get to the [Music] conversation Michael who were you who was I interesting question I um you know I have to start with this because you you just came right off the bat and asked me a question that I don't want to say stumped me but maybe in a way did in the same way that Jordan Peterson did I'll tell you why Jordan said to me he said Michael you spent 20

years in that life obviously you did some things that were not good I said yeah he well how'd you do that and I said you know Jordan when I had to do something that I was uncomfortable with I kind of stepped out of myself I believe took care of business and then stepped back in so he looked to me and he said well how do you know who the real Michael is the guy that stepped out or the guy that's sitting here in front of me now I that's a good question Jordan I said but

uh I've been this guy for the last almost 30 years so hopefully this is the guy so you know who am I I mean I'm a guy that uh you know at a point in time in my life I was I was on the right track love my dad very much and as result of that I followed him into this life to try to help him out he had a 50-year prison sentence and I thought the only way to help him and he thought the same was to really get on the street and do some

of the work that was necessary to try to overturn a conviction that he got wrongful conviction by the way so I became that other guy that was able to I was going to be a doctor I was my I was a Premed student when my dad got this 50-year sentence so um but then I just I mean I fell into that life and I I thought I did a pretty good job while I was there and I acclimated to it pretty pretty you know easily when someone thinks about you joining the mafia they assume assume

that your home life must have been a certain way you must have had a really really rough up early upbringing is that the case you know um I had a very strict mother I mean she was 16 when I was born and we had a very turbulent life because of my father's involvement in that life my father was an extremely high-profile guy at that time major Target of law enforcement so from the time I was four or five years old my dad was in and out of jail going on trial and we lot of a

lot of turbulence police around us all the time so I witnessed all that was part of that I don't know if that contributed to you know who I am now I I don't know I mean but it certainly I mean it had an effect on me at that point in time I hated the police I hated the government I hated anything about law enforcement because I saw them as the enemy the way they you know were harassing my dad harassing my family at least in my view at that point so it did shape you know

my my world view of those people at that time and they were parked outside your house I read they uh we had six or seven different agencies parked around our house and every time we left there was a parade of law enforcement Vehicles following us I mean it was that severe with my dad uh I've never seen anything like that quite honestly you know other people have had surveillance but I guess because I grew up and I witnessed I was part of it but it was so intense with him it really was did you know

why they were there and did you know what your dad was doing you know it was hard not to although he never sat down with me and said to me this is what I'm all about it was B basically from other people from what I read and what I witnessed um so yeah I mean I knew what he was about but I thought it was a good thing you know CU you know his his his friends came to the house to me they were like Uncle Joe Uncle this Uncle that good people you know we'd

go out together so I thought it was a good good thing at that time what was he about my dad yeah yeah very charismatic guy you know a good father I mean he wanted the best for me he didn't want me in this life originally wanted me to go to school be a doctor get an education stay off the street that was his initial desire for me um he was a good husband to my mother I thought at that time but you know he had that other side of him that once or twice growing up

up I kind of witnessed and I saw there was something else you know with it what did you witness you know I'll never forget uh it was really two things that that happened I was he was taking me up my my dad was involved in the music business so he was taking me into Manhattan to meet with some of the people you know just his daily work and along the way he had to stop and he had to meet with somebody and I was in the car and two of his guys that I knew very

well with with my dad they were talking to this guy in a convers ation got very heated and I see my dad really angry never saw him like that before and uh Steve I'm I'm not kidding at least this was a kid's impression I was young he just picked that guy up by like his throat and had him up against the wall and I saw the guy was horror strick and I I didn't I never saw my dad like that before cuz he didn't he didn't hit us or anything as kids you know had brothers

and sisters he didn't treat us that my mom was tough my mom forget it she didn't spare the Rob but my my dad was not so to see him like that I said wow there is really another side of him you know Street side of him you said there was another experience another experience this was it was kind of funny but in a way it wasn't we had a carpenter that was working in our house and he was kind of a his name was S I never forget a big guy huge guy and uh he

would never finish anything on time the carpentry my dad would hire him because he probably didn't have to pay him much right and my mom was always on him you know guy that comes he don't finish the job and all that and came to the house once and my dad just just went off on him punched him like in the house and knocked the guy out you know in front of all of us we were kind of surprised but he said don't blame me your mother's nagging me too much I can't take it you know

it was one of those things so those as a young person those were the two things that I really witnessed with him those were Clues those were clues of something else those were a window into his other life mhm and what was his other life what was the reality of his other life as you've come to understand it well another thing and this this it's amazing how you can remember things sometimes at a young age but you can't really put it together I I have to go back the first real incident that I had is

um I was probably four years old and we were living in Brooklyn but my dad had moved us out me and my mom to Long Island where my grandparents were we were living in their house for a while and I didn't see my dad for a couple of days he's gone and then one morning he comes in and my dad had a heavy beard he hadn't shaved and uh his right-hand man was just standing out on the porch kind of standing guard and my dad came in hugged my mother my mother was a little upset

she was crying then he came over and hugged me I was sitting on the step and my grandmother's house I'm saying what this what was this all about he was there for about a half an hour and then he left well what I didn't find out till later on our family the Columbo family was at War at that point and so my dad was not at home it's kind of dangerous to be at home and you know it lasted for a while and I didn't know what that meant at that time you know it's you

you look back and you put these things together later on so really I would say it was those three incidents but look my dad was a you know he was a a captain in that life and then an under boss in that life so he had a very high position powerful position a lot of people around him a lot of guys who were subordinate to him and uh you know he was big time in that life he was a captain and an under boss yeah I have been trying to understand the structure of a mafia

family so I printed off this to try and understand it from what I from what I could see and I'll put this on the screen for anyone that's interested and pin it below is that is that somewhat accurate in terms of the structure of a Mafia Family yeah yeah that's it these are uh this is the true rankings and that's the uh I mean there's a boss and an under under boss and the consiliary is kind of an advisor to the boss and then you have the compor Jes is the real term for it or

capos and they are uh they're kind of the street bosses they're in elevated position and then you have the soldiers which is the first official rank when you get made the term is made the night that you take the oath and you become an official member of that life your rank as a soldier and um and the associates are guys that are around us but never taking the oath they're not full-fledged members they're just Associates so from the bottom up the bottom level is the associates I'm going to repeat this back to you to see

make sure I've got it um and they're not they haven't taken the Earth so they've not become what you call made men correct the soldiers are the the first level that have taken the oath correct um and they report into capos capos and the capos reporting the under boss capos can go right to the boss also yeah and then then there's the boss above the under boss yes he's the boss he's the official ruler of the family and your dad became an an under boss under boss yes so he was one below the the boss

yes and you mentioned your family had a certain name what was that name Columbo Columbo yeah what is the because I think I need to understand the kind of history of the mafia to understand what Columbo is yes well you know originated in Italy obviously Sicily and um it was originally just a a group in Italy that baned together to protect their towns from Marauders that were coming in and and you know um doing damage in the in the towns and the cities and eventually for some reason they started becoming a little bit of a

criminal you know body and then they migrated many of them to New York you know back in 1901 190 I think the earliest in the late late 19 I think it was maybe in 1885 or something like that was when they first started coming here to the United States came legally went through Ellis Island and came in Legally and originally the guys that came in they were just kind of praying on their own people in in the cities that you know they uh they got into and you know I can go through all of this

but uh you go back to the days of Al Capone I'm sure you know you've heard that name uh who originally came from Brooklyn then went out to Chicago and I I always say this they were obviously involved in criminal activity you know loan shocking lending money at usurious rates extorting some of the shop owners you know for protection getting money out of them a little bit of the gambling business but what really happened I always say this it was the government the United States government that made the mafia strong in the United States and

when did they do that with prohibition because it was then that the guy re the guys realized hey people want this they want to drink the government is uh you know Banning it but we're going to allow them to have to have it and so they started to create they got into the illegal booze business basically and to give you the extent of that in New York state alone there were 36,000 speak easys which were illegal bars at the time 36,000 in New York alone and the mafia controlled all of them and people wanted it

and they gave it to them and um it was extremely lucrative I mean you're talking you know in today's money billions of dollars and that's what started to create this organization and then in the 40s lucky luchano who again came from uh from Italy um saw that a lot of the guys were starting to war among each other it was always power and control and money and he said we're not going to exist we're not going to survive like this we have to become an organization a business and he's the one that created the Mafia

commission and split it up into families actually at that time there were nine families Nationwide and they were bosses of each family and that's how this whole structure came about it was in the 40s was actually him Myer Lansky who played a significant role even though maril Lansky was not a maid guy because he was Jewish and you have to be of Italian descent but he was a right-hand man um to Lucky Lano and that's when the mafia really came to could be here in the United States so the mafia was this one organization and

then lucky luchano did you say yes he split it into lots of families correct were those families actually related by blood in any way no was it just when you say split it into families was he did he essentially just appoint lots of CEOs to run different parts of the same organization yeah it was called a family I mean you could have called it a group or whatever you wanted to call it but we we called it families and uh no they weren't necessarily related um and somebody emerged in that group as the top guy

and he officially appointed them as the boss and in order to have a seat on the commission which was the ruling body of all of these families Nationwide you had to be the boss or representative of your family that the boss designated and you can then sit on the commission and the commission allegedly um created policy for all of the families Nationwide and that's how it worked and allegedly allegedly because you know I I got to understand that the commission was like the United Nations sounds good you know and they they're going to create policy

but really you can't tell a boss of his own family what to do he has total autonomy so it sounded good and sometimes the commission will make a policy that people will respect but if the boss of that family doesn't want to they don't have to and how big were the families in New York we had five families and in each of the uh total total made guys in those families was about 750 guys you know the Gambino family had about 250 guys and this is through my era Genevie family 250 guys Bano family Columbo

family lucases we had about aund and some OD each we were the smaller families uh but you had total about 750 made men guys that actually took the oath and then we had a lot of Associates you know hundreds so we had a we had a big presence especially in New York and did the families fight each other even in New York were there arguments amongst families prior to the 40s yes when the commission was created yes they would go to war among each other once uh that commission was created there was no more Wars

among the families anytime there was a war it was a Civil War and it was always a war for power our family the Columbo family we were one of the more violent Waring families we had three Wars during my lifetime in the columbos and it was always for power who wanted to be the boss you don't have elections somebody wants to take over it's a power struggle and however it turns out it turns out within the family within the family now other families could say okay we throw our support behind you but not with Manpower

it's you know whoever you're rooting for at that point but um no things were solved you know once the commission came into place and the family things were solved uh amicably usually you know peacefully but there was always a lot of disagreements there was a lot of sitd downs you know to straighten things out we had a lot of that you know I was very active in that life and I was going to sit down every other day you know trying to resolve something either one of my crazy guys got in trouble it was a

business situation uh it was a lot of that what is a sit down I was reading about this uh in your work and I I found it quite interesting because I think sometimes in business as a CEO maybe we should emulate this idea of having a sit down we have a lot of meetings and a lot of emails and stuff like that but seems like you have a pure way of dealing with things we do a sit down was the way we resolved everything everything we sat down they were structured when I say structured you

had normally the boss was in control of that it was a serious one rather than two captains or copos getting together you had to bring the boss in uh he was the final rule what he says goes like it or not and there was rules if you're a ma guy and I'm a made guy and we're arguing over business uh issue and you're lying through your teeth I can't call you a liar if I call you a liar I lose the argument automatically because I disrespected you you have to be respectful the meetings so if

a guy's lying you got to figure out how to let the boss understand that without calling him a liar and then at the end of this um you know you uh whatever decision the boss makes that's it there's no appeals there's no nothing shake hands get up and you leave and that's the final ruling so you mentioned this I wrote a book uh was actually a business book I'll make you an offer you can't refuse hoer Collins was the publisher after they heard about that they said we're not having any more meetings from now on

they're all sit Downs he said that's it you know because it was a lot more efficient what kind of things would get resolved in a in a sit down normally business disputes um and then sometimes quite honestly you know you know look that's a a life serious consequences and if somebody violated policy made a mistake to the point where he was going to pay for it seriously you had to sit down to decide his fate basically people speaking for him people speaking against him and then the boss would make the final ruling so that could

be you know a serious sit down could be a business matter so if in the case of deciding someone's fate would the person you were deciding their fate be would they be sat there no no so it' be someone on basically speaking yes on behalf of one side of that decision correct things like whether this person should live correct have have you ever been in a sit down where people were discussing if someone should live and you've seen it go both ways yes your father got sent to prison when you were 19 yeah well he

finally he was in and out before that but he started to do uh time on that 50-year prison since I was 19 how did that change your life you through everything I read you really loved this man I loved him he's a good dad and he he wanted the best for me at that point and he taught me great things I mean he he really did and you know the one advantage I had in my life and again taught to me by my dad he always said Son be a good listener listen before you speak

you know be careful don't you know don't don't speak out of turn he always told me to be a good listener so the person I listened to the most was him and he taught me well in that regard so I had a lot of love and respect for my dad and um when he went away it was devastating because he was 50 years old when he went into prison fig he had 50 on top of that he'd never come out of prison alive that's what we thought you know so it was it was uh it

was tough I can almost still see the emotion in you when you talk about him going away to prison yeah it was a defining moment in my life because you know I I realized things were going to dramatically change I mean I was the oldest with my mom had three younger brothers and sisters and um I knew I had to play a role in that you know and and taking care of my mom because my dad when he went away he said listen I'm entrusting the family to you he said you know be a good

son and take care of your brothers and sisters take care of your mother so I mean I had that responsibility um and I was doing that anyway because during many of my dad's trials my mom would go and I would one time he was you know tried couple hundred miles away from us they moved the venue to Albany New York and I'm in Long Island so my mom would be away for three or four days at a time with my dad I'd be watching the kids and so I mean I took on that rule early

on but then when he went away it became a lot more you know um serious your life when he went away you were studying to be a doctor be a doctor yeah it's hard to imagine the sort of turn of turn of events that happen in your life at that point when you're studying to be a doctor your dad goes to prison and it ends up changing the trajectory of your life it ends up swaying you towards the life he had just come from and you say that he was wrongly imprisoned my dad was framed

on that case framed yeah 100% I'll take it to my grave Steve he was uh he was supposedly uh masterminding a nationwide string of bank robberies and um you know when my my dad first went away I I I was with him in the visiting room we were in the jail and I looked at him I said Dad bank robbery and he looked at me and he said son I'm innocent I'm not a bank robber I didn't order these bank robberies she said I was framed government framed me my dad had never lied to me

to that point and he saidwe got to work to overturn this conviction and why did I believe first of all he never lied to me so I believed it but the four witnesses that testified against him were all drug addicts my dad my entire life preached against drugs to me he used to make up stories Parables to to show me the dangers of drugs all of us though all the kids so that we would never get involved he hated anything to do with drugs always spoke about it so I I never saw my dad as

a hypoc in that regard he wouldn't associate with these people no let do bank robberies with them so it made it very real and so it angered me in some ways but it motivated me to say you know what I can't let my dad die in here you know and then at the same time I was getting very close to Joe Columbo who was the boss of our family Columbo family and uh he kind of took me under his wing because you know he uh obviously my dad was his under boss and I started to

meet a lot more of my dad dad's friends and they would say to me mikee what are you doing going to school if you don't help your father out he's going to die in prison so I was very it affected me in a big way I said I can't let that happen and even though my dad did not want me involved in the life but I went to visit him in the visiting room lorth Penitentiary and I said Dad I'm not going to school anymore if I don't help you out you're going to die in

here and we kind of argued about it because he he was disappointed he didn't want that for me he knew the life was tough he didn't want it for me he want it for any of his kids and uh but I was pretty headstrong as a kid and I said Dad My Mind Is Made Up I lost interest in school I'm not going to go I said it's it you're wasting your breath and basically he looked at me Steve and you know and and I don't ever want to be offensive to the audience but he

looked at me and he said okay but if you're going to be on the street then I want you on the street the right way in his mind the right way was to become a member of his life so he looked at me and he said I got to ask you a question very serious I said go ahead he said ' if you ever had to kill anybody could you do it and I said dad under the right circumstances yeah I could do it he said ' that's the right answer he said to me then

he looked at me and he said' go home somebody's going to be in touch with you do what you told that's all he said he didn't break it down he didn't said this is what's required of you nothing because you know Steve that's a secret life you're not supposed to talk about that life with anybody outside of it my dad wouldn't violate that policy even with me his own son he just figured okay kids got it in them go home and do what you're told and I didn't question him I said okay Dad this is

what you want just point me in the right direction I mean that's the kind of bond that we had together at that point and uh and I left there and that's how things started for me when you answered that question your dad asked you were you telling the truth yeah I mean obviously I'd never been in that situation but I thought about it and I don't I don't remember what rolled through my mind at that point did I say to myself well this is the answer my dad wants or did I say to myself yeah

I could really do it as I sit here now all these years later I can't honestly answer that um but the answer was yes he didn't um he didn't ever try and stop you or did he did he ever try and persuade you out of join joining the mafia no I mean prior to that point that's not what he wanted for me but once I made up my mind I think there was a feeling of Pride or joy in my dad I kind of seen it in him and that you know once I did become

a maid guy he was he was overjoyed he was thrilled how did he or anyone else think that you joining the mafia would help him simple needed money for attorneys I had kind of a business head my dad knew that we needed to track down Witnesses and people that were involved in the case that could you know say this was a frame up and that's exactly what I did I mean I went after all of these Witnesses uh to try to find them and get them to recant that testimony I worked with the lawyers as

a result of that and eventually did get you know three of the witnesses to recant their testimony gave them lie detective test proved they lied at the trial that the FBI had gone along with the story that they met up because my father was such a they wanted him so bad they really did and if you go back to the 60s and you look at the amount of media attention he had you know you wouldn't believe it but um so the FBI at that time I believe was licit in in this Frame up because they

might have known that these guys were lying one of the one of the witnesses told me um that when they agreed to cooperate with the government they were going to put these bank robberies or to make the Mastermind somebody else and they actually did guy by name of Tony pcei they said well he was the original guy that told us how to do these bank robberies and then when the FBI told him this came right from the witness the FBI told him well that C you some time off but I ain't going to go that

far we don't care about Tony polii a guy like Sunny Frances that would matter and then they went and they concocted this story because Steve the thing is they committed all the bank robberies every one of them and they they described it in great detail at the trial and all they said was that Sunny Frances ordered them at a meeting that we had once at the Q motor in and um why did they pick the night for the meeting because my dad was under constant surveillance and the FBI told them what day my dad would

be available to that wouldn't have an alibi he probably sitting at home wouldn't have an alibi to say that he wasn't at that meeting so they structured this whole thing and many people afterwards have said Sunny would never associate with these type of guys so you know all those things came together and and I really like I said look I went to Crime I went to jail for a crime I was guilty of pled guilty did my time uh but this particular ular crime that my dad did I'd take it to my grave he he

was not he was no bank robber was your dad a good guy I thought so I mean yeah listen people liked him my dad was very well-liked objectively as you sit here today do you think he was a net positive listen my D look I'm going to tell you this you know the word on the street from the FBI my dad was involved in 3035 murders now he never admitted that to me about anyone in particular he was indicted for one murder and he was acquitted in that case found not guilty but my dad was

he was a tough guy there's no question so if he was involved in 35 matters as the FBI suggest do you think he was better off behind bars what I'm getting at here really is if they framed him was it a net benefit to society that they framed him well you know Steve let me let me I know there's going to be a tough one but let me let me tell you how I think the the the right and just side of me the legally just side of me says that the government is never allowed

to break the law to uphold the law because if you allow that to happen then it falls into monarchy and people are not protected because if they do it against Sunny Frances they can do it against anybody so I believe strictly the government has enough tools and weapons to get people the right way uh and they do 96 97% of the time they shouldn't be allowed to violate the law to go after a criminal that's my my feeling on it now another thing is this people think when we take an oath the oath of omera

it's an oath to stay silent it's not an old to lie steal cheat and kill does that happen as part of that light yes but we're told straight out now try to understand the thinking here you come into that life you told us straight out we have rules you don't ever violate another man's wife daughter sister girl never that'll cause you to die during my era we weren't allowed to deal with drugs you deal with drugs you get caught you die you maybe do some other things you're not honest with people you disrespect somebody you

hit another ma guy you die now we understand that and they tell you your best friend may be the one that pulls the trigger because the life comes before anything that's it you know don't violate the rules that's how we maintain control in this life that's how we existed for a 100 years and that's how it's going to stay so now you're saying okay we all agreed to this we all admitted it if one of us decides to violate the policy of the law and we get caught well we understand the consequences so that's how

I looked at it and that's how I Justified it now does that say you can go out and start to do random killings no if the boss tells you to go kill somebody because he doesn't like him and you do it that's not right but if we kill our own and you know you hear a lot of times Well we only kill our own well we don't only kill our own but if we only kill our own knowing that we made that choice well then okay I I kind of I kind of get it in

a way even though murder is murder and it's a crime and it's sinful and I understand that but that's how you justify it but it wasn't the case that you only killed your own well for some of us it was and for others it was not and I've seen both sides of that you've never talked about having to kill someone have you no why is that it's it's a it's just not a subject I care to get into you know I uh listen I like to be as honest as I possibly can because I am

a Christian and you don't want to lie to people but it's not something I want to talk about I was wondering because when I when I read that I thought maybe it's because you know there's some might be legal retribution maybe it's because you know it's not nice for people to hear about maybe it's because there's still some kind of like rule where you can't say anything but I wondered why maybe it's all of the above I don't know well you know Steve look there guys there's a lot of guys on the street now and

if you go on YouTube You'll see a number of them and they've admitted to murder that they were involved in these are made guys and they've admitted to it and many of them had struck a deal with the government they had immunity for the crimes they committed even murder I mean the government give you immunity for murder if you want to uh if they want you to cooperate and help them out it's amazing but they'll do it and so they have immunity they could talk about their crimes I didn't cooperate to that level at all

I don't have immunity for anything that I've done in the past you know and listen you know our laws here in the United States have you were standing next to somebody when they murdered somebody else you're there you could you could be charged for murder the same way to them so you know I'm saying I have a was in that position I'm just saying that's the law so you know why talk about it number one and number two murder is ugly you know it's it's ugly and you don't ever want to talk about it I

mean I don't if I were to do something like that I wouldn't be proud of it I'm not trying to throw my chest out and say hey look what I could do guys go to war they kill people all all the time you know in defense of our country or defense of so I mean it's not like oh God you know nobody I mean murder happens every single day MH who wants to talk about it some people do I know not me you got closer to the mafia when your father was sent down and this

was the point where you decided not to go to school the boss of the Columbo family yes brings you close brings you under his wing um do do you have to do some kind of training or something to join the MAF is there any oh you do oh yeah well when you commit here's what happened I leave there a captain in a family picked me up and took me to see the boss now unfortunately Joe Columbo was assassinated he was shot seriously wounded he lingered for about seven years and then he died as a result

of these wounds so a new boss took over and he's he's passed away now and I sat with him this was about two weeks after my father sent word downtown that he was proposing me to be part of that life because you can't just go up to somebody say I'd like to join somebody has to propose you vouch for you say you have what it takes there's a lot of nepotism in that life a lot of fathers brought their sons in their nephews whatever so in my case it was my dad that proposed me and

so I sat with the boss and he said to me here's the deal you want to become a member of our life your father sent the message is that true and I said yes he well here's the deal from now on 24 hours a day seven days a week you're on call to serve this family the Columbo family that means if your mother is sick and she's dying you're at her bedside we call you to service you leave your mother you come and serve us from now on we're number one in your life before anything

and everything when and if we feel you've deserved this privilege this honor to become a member will let you know that's it and do you accept that I said yes I do and so over the next two and a half years I was in like a recruit pledge period where I had to do anything and everything I was told to do prove myself worthy could have been something very menial a lot of discipline in that life a lot of authority a lot of alleged respect you had a meeting at 8:00 you weren't there at 7:30

you were late can never be late in that life I don't care what the situation is you had a meeting at at 8:00 if there was traffic and you were concern come the night before and sleep in the car can never be late no excuses you know Drive the boss to a meeting sit in the car 3 four five hours got forbid you leave you go to the restroom get a newspaper he comes out you're not there oh my gosh we could have had trouble you you were the getaway driver you weren't there I know

I did that once and I paid the price you know for it that's very serious stuff you paid the price well paid the price in other words I got a real good tongue lashing I'll tell you you know um you know just stuff like that they kind of put you on the shelf for two weeks you know to make you understand the seriousness of what you did so you never do it again you never repeat your mistakes in that life if you're smart you want to if you want to number one want to survive and

number two you want to move up you never repeat your mistakes so so you know things like that and then look I'm going to be honest with you you know as as honest as I possibly can it's a violent life at times if you're part of the life in some shape or form you're part of the violence and uh if anybody tells you differently they're either not being honest or they weren't a made member of that life and that's just how it goes why' you say that because you said you said demial and then you

said it's a violent life are you are you saying that in that sort of probationary two years you had to do both of those things you had to be involved in the viol and do the menal stuff let's put it this way they got to have enough faith in you that you can be capable of doing whatever it is they tell you to do they have to they have to understand that and feel that because if they don't feel that you're not going anywhere that that's it so during that time you're going to be tested

and you were tested yeah when when they made you pledge that if your mother was dying and you were at her bedside and they called you and asked you to do something you'd leave would you have left if your mother was dying back then I mean I might have I mean you know I was a I was a play by the rule guy you know I uh you know I I was very fortunate that I had a great teacher in my dad he was a student and master of the life and so and I was

like a sponge I absorbed whatever my dad told me I listened and you know some of the things that he told me were were right so I might have at the time I'm going to be honest with you I mean I I don't know it it it would have to depend on what's happening at that moment but you know I was so indoctrinated into that life at some point um it's who I was sounds a bit like a cult in a way it's cult-like I guess you know in a way I mean we didn't do

silly things you know we wouldn't have rituals and ceremonies other than that that one yeah other than that one nothing after that but what did it teach you about people skills because you're around these bosses these very talented men you're seeing how they conduct themselves do business Influence People win friends what what did that phase of your life teach you about how to be a motivator SL manipulator of people yeah it taught me well I think I got it you know there's kind of two levels in that life you're either a racketeer or you're a

gangster what's the difference I'll tell you the difference a gangster is a guy that really doesn't know how to use that life to benefit him in business so he's more of a I don't want to say tough guy I don't want to say the term but he's more of a guy that hey we had something done this is the guy send him out let him do it because you got to earn your keep in that life we in the Columbo family had 115 maid guys at that time out of of the 115 20 of us

were really earning money and supporting the family in some way and and really elevating the family we were racketeers now a gangster could never really be a racketeer he just doesn't know how but a racketeer has to be a gangster also because you're going to be called upon not as much as this guy but when you're called upon you got to do it so you know I was more of a racketeer and as a result of that I was constantly in business disputes and sitting down with other guys and you have to learn you know

how to negotiate I mean I learned the art of negotiation at these sit Downs you know learned how to try to you know really before I walk into a meeting with somebody number one try to know the personality of that person know if there's a fallback position if I'm not winning what I'll accept and so I had to prepare myself for these meetings because unprepared you know they'll chew you up because a lot of these old time was were very skillful and believe me you could be 100% right and end up wrong and they'll put

you in a in a trap so you really had to know what you were doing and so my people skills in that regard as far as negotiating and identifying a true leader um were really hone to a a you know a high degree because I came out on top many many times what are the the principles of in your view of a good sell or a good negotiation are there and are there small things that you saw within the mafia that you probably don't see in the outside world one of them you've already named which

is this idea of being really punctual mhm but what and it seems like respect is at the very heart of much of what you said what are those small things that are important for a negotiation or a sales pitch in your view well understand you know again you know I always learn this there's sometimes you can walk into a room and be the smartest person in the room you don't want anybody to know that and you want people to just talk let you know just talk give them an opening give them throw them a bone

so that they're gon to come back and talk and and learn the personality of this person learn you can learn so much from people just when they talk and you keep quiet there's other times when you're not the smartest person in the room and by keeping quiet nobody knows that what is this guy thinking what you know what is this thinking it's a tremendous technique and in that life it was extremely valuable for me I was always the last guy to talk don't tell me everything you know and uh it helped me kind of Master

that art in that life because you had these guys never sell them short there were some very smart guys here if they weren't in that life they would have been successful somewhere else you know very smart so you had to really know what you were doing because the consequences too are very severe I mean you could walk in there and lose your shirt you know because the boss could say hey not only you going to pay this guy this but you're going to pay the family everything else and everything you got I'm taking away from

you right now those that's how severe it could have been so you yes you really had to know I'll tell you this when I I think you know I was in the gas business right the gas tax business I was defrauding the government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline it was probably the biggest scam since the days of prohibition explain to me how that was even possible the law at that time is that the gas tax was collected by a wholesaler you had to be a licensed wholesaler but the government really wasn't up

to their collection process so to make a long story short I had 18 companies that were licensed to col the tax on every gallon of gasoline they were all shell companies every single one of them all right and they were all Panamanian companies why Panama because Panama corporation in c Panama had be stock you give me the stock I'm the owner I give it to you you're the owner so we didn't have to give a lot of information the only reason I needed the company was number one to get the LI to get the license

and number two to open a bank account I didn't need brick or more I need anything right that's all I needed so so now I'm allowed to collect the tax we had a very sophisticated um process or strategy to collect that tax for about 10 11 sometimes a whole year before the government came down on us because we had a report we had to pay quarterly and so on and so they were very slow they're very slow so we we had a way to keep them at Bay for almost a year when they finally came

down on us we closed the office closed the the that license and just started operating under a new license well I ran this for seven years so just to summarize off I'll make sure I'm clear you had the supply chain coming from Panama that was where the no we had we had the companies were Panamanian companies okay right so where was the gas coming from gas was coming from we were buying barges as they came over from the Middle East and we were buying gas from all the major oil companies ah okay so you bought

the gas with a shell company in Panama which allowed you to get the wholesale license so that you could collect the tax from the retailer correct of the gas and then you would sell it to the retailer and then when the government for their tax maybe 12 months later you say sorry the company's gone busted and you shut it down you would say anything the door would be closed there would be nobody there they wouldn't even know where to go okay yeah so you were you then giving the retailer a discount on the gas yes

okay you know I I the way I do it let's say you know and I had 350 gas stations I either owned or operated 300 plus gas stations we either owned or operate at least whatever but uh if we would go buy a gas station on a corner where there were four stations and you have a lot of that in New York we would buy one station lead one station could have been a mobile any brand didn't matter and we'd get the other three station owners and say come here we want to talk to you

here's the deal okay whatever you sell the gas for we're going to be two cents cheaper if you go down five we'll go down 10 if you go down 10 we'll go down 20 because I had 40 cents to work with in most cases I we'll put you out of business so just stay understand that we're going to stay two cents we don't want to kill you we want you to earn money but we're always going to be cheaper before you know it they're buying all their GS from us anyway so we was selling all

all four stations were you know being supplied by us because look gas station owner if you're saving them five six seven cents a gallon 10 cents a g it's a lot of money you know if they're doing volume too so we were selling gas to everybody branded stations unbranded stations didn't matter and the government just could not keep up with us so when I realized what I had you'll appreciate this I went to my boss at the time call my personal he's passed on now and we called him Junior and I said Junior here's the

deal I'm going to show you more money than you've ever seen in your life cuz I realized what I had right he says we don't do drugs I says not drugs you know I hate drugs I nothing to do with drugs he said what is it I said it's gas gas I said yes tax money oh okay that's clean I said but here's the deal everybody's going to want a piece of this everybody on the street when they realize what we what I have here they're going to want a piece of it so here's what

you have to do you have to make me win every argument I said anytime I sit down doesn't matter what family it is I said don't play politics you know I said I'm not telling you as the boss what to do but I'm telling you I'm going to make you wealthy so I said make me win every argument I'm going to be right anyway I'll come in right I said so make make me win I'll make you more money than you ever seen before I'll never forget Steve he just sit back like this he said

show me okay I was bringing him $2 million a week it built up to that buys a lot of loyalty and a lot of wins on the street CU I was constantly sitting down with people people they wanted a piece wanted this wanted that then if somebody wasn't I wasn't the only guy in the business we just B it did it better than anybody else but if somebody wanted to buy gas from us I'd say okay but you got to pay if you don't pay it's going to be a problem so when people didn't pay

we had to sit down I always won you know so it was uh I mean look at it elevated I became a captain as a result of the money that I was turning in and I had a big crew under me you know I was living a liftime in a Jet Plane I had a helicopter I we're bringing in 78 n10 million a week at times is that big selling a half a billion gallons of gas a month taking down 30 40 cents a gallon whatever we decided to char somebody at that time it's a

lot of money that's a lot of money I think I'm in the wrong business no you're in a right yeah yeah from what I understand you're doing pretty well so it's seven or eight seven to 10 million a week I'm not doing that well well does this little gas Loop holster work let's put it this way I'm out of it and uh I don't even want I don't even want to be tempted so if I wanted to become a maid man back then which is basically when you kind of swear the oath yeah and you

join the mafia that was after your two years um of sort of probationary period being an intern I mean that process of becoming a maid man sounded a little bit culty well I'll tell you this you know when I got straightened out we we call it straightened out believe it or not you you're straightened out that's when you become a maid man right you know same term but uh that was in 1975 for 20 years prior to that almost 25 years they had a a term that the books were closed they weren't bringing any new

guys into the life and that was Nationwide why security reasons they said the only time you can make a guy is if a guy died in a family you could replace him so you're replaceing the ranks but you couldn't bring anybody else in well in the mid 70s they opened the books okay now we're going to start to build the families up again when I was made there was guys waiting 20 years 25 years yeah that were part of that and just waiting for the day when they can have their turn so I was you

know definitely a younger guy I mean it was a couple of younger guys that got in at that time you know the the double-edged sword because there's a lot of resentment to the young guys that got in after two three years and guys are waiting 20 25 years you know you it's like anything else just that you have the resentment from the older guys and I had to deal with that it's just that and it's it's a little more severe on the street than it would be in normal life do you still you become a

maid man you have to swear an oath to the mafia what is that oath that you swear well for me it was Halloween night 1975 when I took the oath it was me and five other guys uh that night and you don't have any preparation they just tell you wear a suit and then all of a sudden that night it happens you kind of get maybe a little inkling because you're waiting for this to happen and we walked into a room individually it was late at night very solemn ceremony a dimly lit room the uh

boss was seated at the head of like a horseshoe configuration the under boss in the C area to his left and right and all the carer James were alongside of them soldiers can't attend this only the copos only the the brass of the family I walked down the aisle stood in front of the boss I held out my hand he took a knife cut my finger some blood dropped on the floor this is a Blood Oath I cued my hands he took a picture of a saint Catholic alter God put in my hands lit it

a flame didn't hurt it burnt quickly it was merely symbolic and he said tonight Michael Frances you are born again into a new life into kostra this thing of ours violate what you know about this life betray your brothers and you will die and burn in hell like the saint is burning in your hands do you accept yes I do and that's how it started that's the oath very fast very simple very serious were you scared when you walked into I was exhilarated that night I was like wow finally you know I'm going to have

this even closer bond with my dad uh I've worked for this now for two and a half years um I was exhilarated that night I mean hon and so were the other Five Guys everybody why when you look back with the wisdom that you have now as to why you joined that life I know your father was a catalyst in some respects but I imagine it's probably a bit more complex than it just being about your father what were your genuine motiv ation you know quite honestly I didn't aspire to be a mom guy I

mean even though I admired my dad it's not the path that I wanted to take it didn't and say wow I wish I could do that you know and it's kind of odd because a lot of the young people I speak to now lot these gang bangers go into juvenile halls and prisons and they say the same thing wow you guys had all the money you had all the power you had the cars you had the women and it turned them on and that's what wanted they wanted to be that guy I didn't have that

feeling maybe because I grew up with it maybe because that was my dad um you know we didn't grow up poor weren't wealthy but we didn't really you know want for anything we we had roof over our head we went on a vacation every once in a while so we didn't have struggle it financially in that regard so I mean it's not something I aspired to be it was strictly strictly to help my dad really yeah it really was then of course as I get into the process well now I want to complete it I

want to become that made guy I'm working for it you know it's like anything I do you know I want to complete it I want to succeed so that became part of it and then you know because watching my dad is one thing going through the process understanding what the life is about being around the other guys that were mentoring me now I I started to really get an understanding of the life there I say you sound like you were maybe slightly different in in the sense of your intentions of being there with slightly different

from those around you in that life what what were everybody else's intentions what were their motivations and I was wondering as you speaking about the different personality types you must have encountered in that life I've heard you say before there are two types of people in the mafia people who enjoyed killing and people who were just following orders which Camp were you in oh definitely following orders I mean I was listen there was some you know I can mention his name because everybody knows it it's not but there's a guy by name Roy Deo I

don't know if you ever heard that night Roy was uh you know it it was he was a serial killer no question but what I say about Roy and I knew him Roy would have been a serial killer if he wasn't in a mafia the mafia didn't make him a serial killer that's just who he was I mean he enjoyed it you know and there were guys like that he enjoyed it I think so had to because how how could you do that I mean what did he do couple hundred murders and if you you

know he had a place called The Gemini Club it was a it was a club that he had and they described the way they would kill because some people became informants that were involved with him and I mean killing people chopping up bodies I mean it it was gruesome you know I mean you're a different kind of human being if you're doing stuff like that you know have you have you your experience in the mafia must have taught you something about the nature of humans and what way we're capable of because we all walk around

thinking that we're quote unquote good and that we are just we were born with this perfect sort of moral compass and that none of us are capable of doing violent things or morbid things or aoral things but you must have a slightly different perspective on that yeah not true at all I think just the opposite I think we all have something in us that you know if we're triggered in the right way we can we can do damage let's put it that way way I've seen that my whole life sometimes for the right reasons and

sometimes for the wrong reasons you know obviously if you're in defense of your family of your friend I mean you you might do some horrible things to to somebody that's trying to victimize them uh but there's others that you know just do it because they can do it and I've seen that I've seen both do you think things like murder are part of human nature yes absolutely I do believe that I mean you know and I want to be clear on this be careful on this murder is murder murder is murder the reason you commit

it is another thing but listen you're going to the military you're killing people on the other side why are you doing it well I'm defending my country and I get it and I understand that and that's a noble thing supposedly right but you're still committing murders you still have it in you you could have been the nicest guy in the world okay you could have been the most laid-back soft person in the world you go into the military they're going to teach you to be a killer and you're going to do it so you have

it in you you know um it's a tough thing but I think I think everybody has the capability of doing something doing damage let's let me use that word how have you been affected by what you saw because I can imagine your eyes have seen seen some things that mine absolutely haven't and it's it's impossible to think that one can just shake that off you know i' I've been blessed in a way that sometimes even my wife gets upset with me that I can compartmentalize things pretty well and I think it's the result of being

in that life and I I think this is what triggered it for me Steve I had a a fell when my dad went to prison he was a they called him Arty the animal he's a real tough guy right he was a Jewish guy but I loved him he was like a second dad for me my father and him were very close when my dad went away he kind of again took not only me but my whole family very close with his family he had younger kids his his wife was was wonderful and um he

got murdered I was young was 17 18 years old and he got murdered no I'm sorry I'm sorry made mistake it was when my dad first went into prison so I was 19 or 20 and um I walked into the funeral parlor I'll never forget get and his sister came up to me and hugged me and she said you need to come with me you need to look at what these animals did to my brother I'll never forget the words the coffin was closed and she opened the coffin and he was unrecognizable there's a guy

I loved I I didn't faint but it got to me it really got to me i' never seen anything like that before in reality especially somebody I really cared for really loved and it did have an impact on me there's no question but somehow I was able to get beyond that as a young person I don't know what that says about me in that regard um and I'm able to do that about certain things you know even if it's wrong this was wrong but I I can't sit on it I can't let it get to

me I can't I got to overcome it and I think think that was uh that was a defining moment in my life to be able to move that and then continue to move into the life because I said this is part of it do you regret that she did that that she showed you him yeah I didn't need to see that I didn't need to um she did it out of love she didn't do it out of because she loved me and she was her sister devastated and I think she felt close enough to me

because she knew how I cared about Arty and how he cared about me so she just it was grief no other reason you know it was just aere a sincere move that she did but I didn't need to see that and you know what there's times when I have visions of that um my wife you know I have a tendency in my sleep things don't come out of me when I'm awake but when I'm in my sleep she says you know you had a fight last night who is it with and it happens fairly often

you know more than I think a normal person um but I don't remember I wake up hey I'm fine you see him in your sleep I have yeah I have um again that was like boom you know and something just impacts you in a way like whoa I compartmentalizing sounds like a good short-term strategy to to things to grief to um traumatic events and things but I I don't know if I believe one can truly compartmentalize something Forever Without It rearing its its head some somewhere else I almost see it like kind of like whacka

all like I might be able to shut it down in this part of my life but it's probably going to emerge over here in some other way I agree with that I I think when something is so severe even at that moment I think it could it could last and come out in different ways you know um you know I mean another I mean there was a very dear friend friend of mine you know was like a brother to me and he ended up getting killed and that had an impact on me because I honestly

tried to save him and I couldn't yeah because he he without getting into the details he did something that was total violation of our life and he lost his life as a result of it and I couldn't save him I tried but I couldn't he was in the mafia yeah so there was a sit down I'm presuming and it was decided that he wasn't going to live yeah were you in a sit down I was in I was in a number of sit Downs in my life you know um yeah it was uh it was

a tough one you know one of the horrors of that life is you know you make a mistake your best friend walks you into that room you don't walk out again and throughout the course of my life I've seen that obviously I've seen guys that you know were here one day gone the next and it's uh it's it's one of the evil parts of that life there's no question and I saw guys that that died for the wrong reasons you know it's like anything else you know in in the corporate world you have greed and

you have backstabbing and all of that but you lose your job you lose some money you move on in that life the consequences are severe so um I was thinking about my best friend and I was thinking if my best friend did something which was disrespectful in some way I don't know he stole something maybe he something even more extreme he slept with my sister you know I wouldn't want him to die no you wouldn't want him to die but in the life you came from he would he would die it's uh it's a it's

the most severe policy I I'll tell you this I'll tell you how severe it is there was another guy you know and I have to mention his name was two brothers that were made guys in that life and I was friendly with them both one of them happened to be in our family the other one was with another family but I drove him home to Brooklyn one day and um he got out of the car and I said I'll see he said no wait wait don't leave yet I said okay I waited so he opened

the door of his house and he looked in and like he was looking at something I wasn't really paying attention but then I seen him close the door and come out and he got in car and I said what happened he said well nobody's home I but that's your house what do you mean nobody's home why do somebody have to be home and he said I can't go in my house I said what do you mean well his father had been caught fooling around with somebody else's wife or daughter at the time and him and

his brother were given the contract and he killed his father and he said anytime I walk in the house if I'm alone the ghost of my father is in there and haunts me so he said I haven't been in my house alone in 20 some odd years he killed his own father yeah now I want to you know I don't want to how should I say this I don't want to give the impression that that's what the life is all about every day and all the time it's not but there are extreme cases where these

things happen and that's what makes it a bad life and I call it an evil life because families are destroyed as a result of this I don't know any family of any maid member of that life that hasn't been devastated including my own now not my wife and kids I've been able to spare them of that praise God but my mother 33 years without a husband when she passed away in 2012 her relationship with my dad ugly because she blamed him for everything that went wrong rightfully so he was gone all these 40 years my

dad did on that 50 so what went wrong my sister 27 years old dies of an O overdose of drugs my brother 25 years a drug addict Steve you don't know what I had to do to save his life so many times kid you know drug addict if he wasn't my my brother my Father's son he would have never made it my younger sister 40 years old she died young she was never mentally stable the whole family was devastated and my father ended up doing 40 years out of 50 in that prison he was out

a few times on parole but 40 years out of the 50 his life destroyed basically so any lifestyle that does that to a family is a bad life it's an evil life and I don't know any family of any member that hasn't met a similar fate in some way shape or form so you know I came to that conclusion I said this is this is bad and what got me out of it you know I met a young girl that I fell in love with she was 20 years old my wife were married 39 years

this week um I said' am I going to do this to this girl and marry her I'm a major Target is I'm never going to get away with this long term I had huge Bulls on my back I went to trial five times I had seven indictments arrested 18 times they were never going to let me go they had a 14 agency task force that was assigned to put me in jail forever it's all documented so I said what am I going to do I'm going to marry this girl and in two years I'll be

in jail for the rest of my life so that's what started to give me I got to get away from this do you think you would have um gotten away from it just with the will of Love Alone no if it was I I you know I really thought about this myself so often you know I had an incident where my dad actually betrayed me and it was devastating to me and it made me think I said if this life can separate father and son what do I really have here what do we really have

what are we doing here and I didn't meet my wife until two years after that um but I I don't if that act of betrayal didn't happen for my dad I don't know if I would have ever left the life because the the pull he had on me was very strong I don't know if I would have walked away but I think that had to happen to kind of separate me from him and really make me understand that this life if it could separate us what is it what was the Betrayal I was called into

a room one night was over money and there was an article that came out in a Long Island newspaper I think it was a long island press out of circulation now that said I was becoming powerful enough to take over to start my own family break away from the Columbo start my own family no truth in it whatsoever some reporter just made it up because I was doing well I had a Jet Plane helicopter big crew I was in the media what was your net worth and how old were you I was uh well when

I walked away from that life I was 34 this was I was around 30 at that point 29 30 do you know what your net worth was I have no idea because I had a lot of cash was in the Millions for sure it was a lot of money and then it was saying that I that I had defrauded the government at $2 billion it wasn't two billion it was a lot of money but you know they always they always exaggerate so now guys on the street are starting to get a little2 billion dollar his

own family I had the Russians I had organ organized the Russians with me we had a very strong crew had a lot of guys around me so I think to they walk me into that room one night and my father was in there before me and I mean I could this story can take an hour so I don't want to hold you up with it but um the bottom line is I I I talk my sense into them and said basically I'm bringing you all this money and I'm being put on the spot for this

I said I'm taking all the risk nobody else is in Jeopardy here these are my guys nobody knows who you are I purposely kept my guys away from them so that if my thing ever blew up we wouldn't be hurting any of the guys in the family and I said and now I'm being questioned I said they write an article about me all of a sudden it's true they write about everybody else it's false so I started to get angry with the boss you don't do that you know you know the you never outshine the

master you know that principle and that life for sure so I calmed myself down I said okay I'm walking out of here everything's going to be all right then we finished up and you know we glass of wine everything's great you know the usual thing and then it wasn't until I got in the car with the guy that drove me there who I knew my whole life he was a captain along with me and I got in the car and I got very upset with him I said you knew you didn't tell me what was

happening here tonight I walking into a trap and you don't prepare me you don't say anything to me you know what he said Steve he looked at me and he said if was the other way around would you have told me and I said you're a smart guy and I said no said Michael you know the life as well as anybody you grew up around the best I said okay I get out of I go to get out of the car and he grabs my hand my arm and he says I'm going to tell you

something you're not going to want to hear this but it's the truth I am your friend he said we live by a certain code but I am your friend I said what your father was in there before you tonight he didn't help you one bit he hurt you in there tonight and I was like devastated I said what do you mean and I said it to myself I didn't ask him I couldn't even answer him I W I was starting I got out of the car and was walking towards my car and I started to

think knowing my father so well I said I know what he did hey my son is stealing he does everything I'm on parole I don't know what he's doing I have no idea he just kind of took the high road and left me on my own instead of standing up for me because we were both captains at that point my Dad could have forcefully said how dare you my son would never rob me he could have really came out but he didn't I was really on my own and that could have been dangerous you know

again the traps that they set up for you during that time because believe me they would have love to take over my business and just you know and you got to watch for that so the traps that were set up you know fortunately I was able to navigate him but uh it really was devastating CU I said H how could that happen and you were running most multiple businesses at that point not just the the fuel business no I had I had uh well you know I had legitimate business I had two uh automate Bal

agencies I had a Mazda dealership very successful I had a Chevrolet dealership successful I had a leasing company I had a film production company at that time I was making movies I made about 30 Films during that time all horror exploitation films they were big at that point I had a number of restaurants that I was involved in um I had a video shop on video you know sets and everything were big didn't compete with Blockbuster but we had a good neighborhood spot you know so I had a lot of things going on I had

a lot of money on the street I was lended money out to uh to a lot of my own guys I'd lend it to them they in turn would lend it to somebody else you know so I mean I had I had had a lot going on and did you have to pay a tax to the mafia for earning money did you have to then pay the mafia some of that money if it was illegitimate yes okay so if it's legal no if it's legal no unless they contributed in some way and they didn't my

dealerships were mine I didn't didn't owe them anything you know my my film company was mine uh but anything I had on the street yes you have to pay up how did being part of the mafia help you in business could you just you told me the gas station story I imagine you went strong arming your way all the time into business or were you didn't have the strong arm you know uh listen the Mazda agencies that I got people knew who I was you know I was going broke I didn't have any money I

was on trial a couple I was broke but I told the guy said listen I understand the business I'm very aggressive Give me the give me the place you know who my father is you know ah you got it I'm going broke so he gave me the dealership basically and then through a series of things I was able to get floor planning I mean it was a whole stuff I worked hard Steve I was 7 day a week working guy worked hard I kind of understood certain things like you know I right away there was

a guy in General Electric Credit you know I went to him I knew he kind of was fascinated with the life and I said to him look I need a floor plan for my cars I don't have any money I said I need a couple hundred, I got to be able to buy cars from Mazda I said I'll give you so much your car I said you floor plan me I'll play it straight with you every car I sell I'll give you a couple hundred bucks he was in troll he floor planned me that's how

I got the floor plan what's the floor plan floor plan is financing to buy the cars from from the uh manufacturer so you can put them on your yacht oh your they don't give you credit you got to when does it all come crashing down for you well Came Crashing Down really like I I had went to trial five times and is either dismissed or quitted in every case I beat him five times but it came crashing down in the gasoline tax case my partner who he and I developed this scheme together he was really

the brains of it I was the Polish I knew how to do certain things that he couldn't do but he came up with the scheme I brought the accountant in I brought a certain strategy in I brought people to the table and I made sure nobody messed up and we got the right money I was I was the expansion part of the business you know and um he became an informant he got in trouble on an unrelated case and uh they told him listen you're going to jail forever unless you give us Michael and that's

when it started to come down on me I took a plead at a gasoline case even though he had testified against me in a prior case and I was acquitted we destroyed him on the stand he wasn't a good witness but part of my strategy I'll take a plea I'll marry I knew my wife at that point I'm going to marry this girl I'll get a lower sentence by taking a plea I'll give the government back some money I gave up my plane my helicopter the whole bit take it forfeitures I had five million in

forfeitures and 15 million in restitution I had to pay them so um it was part of my strategy to take a plea do some time give them some money move out to the West Coast marry girl and then try to get out of her life it's part of my strategy really how' you feel about him you know I'm going to tell you God's honest truth um he was six 6'4 almost 65 450 pounds big guy he wasn't a sloppy fat he was a big guy right we were together seven eight years never had an argument

his kids called me uncle Michael I was married before for a short time and my young kids called him Uncle Larry we made Millions together but I knew he was weak I knew if he ever got in trouble and um look when he got in trouble they said to me we'll take care of him for you and I said listen I'm going to fight him his wife I know his family I can't do it I said just I'll fight him in court they were upset with me for making that decision and that was my decision

I said I'll fight him in court and um that's what happened how'd you feel about him it's almost like I couldn't even be really upset with him because we were we got along so well we made so much money I just knew he was weak so you know I learned one thing Steve I I try not to put the blame on anybody else anything that goes wrong I take responsibility for personally I should have known better even if some guy does me wrong why didn't I figure that out why didn't I know this I always

to take responsibility so I don't make the same mistake again it's worked for me my whole life when you start playing a Blame Game and start all it does it's it's a sign of weakness in my view and you know if you accept responsibility for everything even when it really isn't your fault and you say I should have known better come on how did I do this why I let this guy get take advantage of me like this you know until right now I have a situation now I'm saying the same thing my fault you

know what am I going to do get mad you know so you know it's just the way I operate so was I really upset with him like you know no when you say you knew he was weak how are you defining weakness and strength I knew if he got in trouble he wouldn't stand up he would cooperate he didn't want to go to prison he was he wasn't a guy that was going to do jail time I knew that and uh and my other guy you know one of the things is my boss always wanted

to meet him and I said I'm not going to me now I know why they wanted to meet him you know in case of anything they would take him away from me right I said I'm not going to make you meet him because he's weak if we ever get he he's going to give up everybody so why would I make him meet you and then you're going to blame me for introducing him to you strategy right they couldn't say no to that they couldn't say no and I said it in front of people I said

I'm telling you this guy is not going to stand up when I have a problem he's my problem I'll take care of it my way but I'm not going to introduce him to people that he can put in trouble no way and they couldn't argue with that was part of my strategy so when he snitched effectively MH did they not want to take care of it oh absolutely yeah they said we'll handle it for you you know turn us you know let us know they wanted they wanted him out of the picture so they didn't

want this to end because they figured that if he's gone I can still keep this going how how easy was that for them to order someone's murder because they it sounds to matter of fact like oh we'll take care of this the boss had total how hard was it for the boss to order a murder and then have it executed yeah wasn't hard at all was not hard at all especially was with somebody within our life it wasn't hard unfortunately so the boss could you say take care of him and then someone would go and

do it absolutely no questions asked boss at that point say he's going to go they need to sign it to somebody and then it's up to them how they handle it what if they didn't handle it they'd be in trouble they got to handle it was there ever an instance you can recall why someone didn't handle it well it could have been an aborted attempt and if it was a legitimately aborted attempt um you know you you're normally not going to be held responsible for that but if you're given a job you better get it

done let's put it that way or you going to be responsible in some ways yes you could be especially if that person goes on to do something hurtful to everybody else eventually you do get sent to prison you take a plea deal yeah what's your plea deal I plad to uh it was a racketeering case the underlying Act was uh tax fraud MH and um two counts that I pled guilty to racketeering conspiracy something and 10-year prison sentence 15 million 14.7 million in restitution 5 million in forfeitures and um leave you with any money well

yes because in negotiating The Plea I was able to keep certain things and not I said listen if I'm going to take a plea my wife's not going to go to work I'm going to make sure my wife my kid they're all okay so I'm going to keep some of the money you know so uh when you're negotiating a plea my lawyer he was able to at least give me enough my wife never had to go to work when I was in jail did they I was wondering this because a lot other things you described

sound like they were done in cash a lot of cash no question um but there was a lot of wire transfers and money sent in different places we had a lot but not everybody paid and we were selling to legitimate gas station owners you know they didn't pay you in cash all the time and especially when you selling big volume there was a lot of wire transfers a lot of wire activity what was the most cash you ever saw in person oh gosh I think the most I've ever seen is like 10K I just think

well I've just never seen a lot of cash in my lifetime we I don't even have a wallet you don't deal with cash I just have my phone so you know probably 40 50 million around there in cash in cash yeah yeah you've seen 40 or 50 million in cash mhm when was that back in the uh 80s early 80s was it just in a room or something yeah it was in a room yeah how how big does a room have to be to have 40 50 had to be pretty big cuz gas station money

is small bills okay yeah I mean listen it got to a point with the cash where I used to come home and I used to get the fives and ones and I used to give them to my wife say give this to your brothers and sisters because I have no room for them there's no place to put them and I'd give her a couple Grand and and say just give it out want keep the 20s and you know the T and it was you know washing the money was an issue I mean I once my

wife went to the bank and I gave her I don't know thousands of dollars to deposit and and the banker said why does your money always smell like gas so my wife Saidi not going to the bank anymore for you she and she didn't know I was doing anything wrong I never discussed it with her I never told her anything I said hey I'm in this business I'm a wholesaler we have a lot of cash you know you go to a gas station they pay with cash and have as many credit cards as they have

now so uh so it came to a point I said all right I'll fix it and I bought a refrigerator and I put baking soda in the refrigerator with the cash and that took the smell out and she said I never seen anything like that before I said well you know gas nobody wants to smell gas you know I but I made everything legitimate out of it I never told her a thing that was going on never did you not I always I always think when I read stories like this that if I was in

that moment I would live in a permanent state of fear that I might go to jail so I'd take I don't know a couple of million and bury it somewhere you're nodding is that what you did well listen I I you know I was resourceful in that regard but you know your plans don't always work out the way you want them to I'll tell you one thing that really hurt me bad I hired a lawyer that had just come out of the government the prosecution's office he was as a matter of fact he was almost

on one of my cases but he wasn't so there was no conflict but he just came out of the eastern district of New York which is Brooklyn where my cases were most of them and so I hired him and I said John I need one thing from you I want to know when I'm going to be arrested or locked up or indicted on this gasoline case this was after my pondy became a snitch and he said I'll never forget he said don't worry about it June of 86 that's when it's going to happen you got

time right and this was like the middle of 85 I said great I had got married in July of 85 right I said great I got time I have my own plan I was moving things around but I was figuring I had seven eight nine months well I got indicted in December of that year and no Bell so they kind of derailed a lot of my plan and strategy because I got locked up six months earlier than I thought and so that that was that was hurtful I can tell you that what was your plan

I was moving a lot of money around quite honestly moving a lot of money around at different places and uh physical money or yeah yeah and money that I had put in certain places I was taking it out and I was putting it so I I said I I never have to worry about anything again I'm going to have to sit on this cash because um another thing happened my partner and I had a um a bank in Austria and we were taking a federal tax money 9 cents and we were just putting in that

banking we weren't we opened up a bank account he had half the number it was a numbered account he had half the number I had half the number neither one of us knew the other half right we just did it I was came up that I said let's make sure we have no temptation it was more for him than for me right and we had about $33 million in that account when he became a snitch I got a hold of his son Larry Jr his name was Larry and I said tell your father I'll fight

him in court don't give up the money it's our money it's for you your mother but don't give up the money whatever happens let's we'll worry about the court situation well he testifies against me he becomes an informant goes to HBY he never gives up the money never gives up the account he testifies against me and a juliani case I get acquitted jury didn't believe him right we destroyed him on the stand so now the government in the eastern district the other side in Brooklyn said you're worthless you couldn't get a conviction on Francis you're

worthless we're throwing you out of the program you're done he gets scared he says wait a second you know there's more he gives him the half of the number the FBI goes to Austria true story goes to Austria and says it's Mafia money we have half the uh the account number we want it Austria says I don't care what money it is you come with the full account number or you're not getting anything tells the FBI they didn't care they wouldn't give it up Austria not Switzerland Austria right so now when I'm they I get

indicted then negotiating The Plea originally they want to give me a $100 million fine and 25 years in prison that was what we were negotiating so my lawyer comes to me he says you're never going to get the money he's got the it's done it's over it's finished he says give me the account number it'll help me negotiate The Plea down I give it to him they negotiate the plea from 25 years and 100 million down to 10 years and 15 million with a 5 million forfeiture Clause right so he did it did was very

helpful in that regard but we lost all that money that was it you know it was meaningful it wasn't all everything but it was meaningful and and when he cooperated they gave him back 2 and a half milon out of that 33 million so he profited a little bit out of it at least did you have anything buried in the ground yes physically buried in the ground in a safe yes in a safe in the ground safes I would say saf in the ground yes up until you were released they were there let's put it

that no because it's what any I think anyone with a brain would do but you just if you don't know the timing of your well even if you didn't I think if I was in that life i' I'd live ass ass uming that at some point I was probably going to have to do some time for something so I Buri it all over the place I I will tell you this they they believe that I have a lot of money stash someplace to the point where they hired an investigator who wrote a book about it

just to go and investigate and search and this guy went around the world to different accounts that he thought I might have had money in he wrote a book about it and they couldn't identify they couldn't find it but until today I get plagued with that they say we know you got it 100% we know you got it we just wondering when you're going to go get it um I I don't I I don't respond to silly stuff like that you know do you think you're being followed and watched no no I mean I think

uh let's put it this way at any moment you can get in the crosshairs again and who knows but I don't think they're worried or concerned about me at this moment it's not to say that that you know that could not be a concern of theirs again but um I don't worry about that but you were just saying there that that you said they are just waiting for me to go and get it they think they're just waiting for you to go and get oh yeah retired agents have told me that agents okay so not

the mafia agents yeah well the M they they absolutely think I do there's no question that I know yeah I've been at there's guys that have told me that you know told you what we know you have it when are you g to go get it you know when they say go get it do they mean New York no you know wherever the money is buried or wherever the wherever it is you know when is it going to appear I hear that I've heard that consistently over the years is it buried Le let's put it

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and conditions apply you went to prison though and you're in solitary confinement for a while while you're in prison um I can't imagine I can't imagine one of my recurring nightmares is going to prison I think it's just like my deepest darkest really fear yeah it is it's specifically going to prison for something I didn't do is one of my like recurring nightmares that will happen every couple of months and it's just the worst feeling in the world that is a nightmare I mean to go for something you didn't do for sure yeah prison is

uh listen it's like anything else you got to know how to navigate the system as best you can and um you know my father taught me again he said' am I going to tell you three things that are going to help you when you go to prison because you're going to go one day he said three words that are going to go a long way please thank you excuse me and he said the reason for that he said all these guys in prison that never got respect on the street they want it all in there

they want to show their people you know that they're tough guys or whatever you bunk into somebody excuse me you want to cut somebody on the line go to eat whatever said do you mind you know excuse me please if I can come in front of you don't ever just get in front of them you know and somebody hands you hey thank you thank you very much be cordial you know and it really help because I saw guys try to throw their weight around John Gotti tried to throw his weight around don't work in there

guys are doing life in prison they don't care who you are what do they got to lose you know um but I never had a problem never had a problem in prison I treated people that way and um yeah I did spend 29 months and seven days in solitary and honestly not easy that was rough I saw a lot of guys did not do well and I don't I don't demean them for it you know lights went out sometimes you heard a lot of things I seen a lot of things in there guys couldn't deal

with it for extended times it's rough it's it's I'm dead set against it for young people I think it's a form of torture really really hurt them emotionally um and I'm against it you know unless somebody's such a danger to themsel or a danger to others you know I'm dead set against it but I got through it why were you sent to solitary they were upset with me you know when uh when I wouldn't cooperate to the level that they wanted me to uh especially in one big case that they tried to get me to

take the stand against a friend of mine and I refused and uh within a few days I was back in on a parole violation they locked me up and sent me right to the hole and I was in solitary the whole time getting me just getting even with me 29 months and seven days seven days yeah in a row or yes it was uh I did I did 11 months in one place and then they moved me that took about two days and then put me in another place and I finished it up when you

say that you had grown men in there breaking what do what do you mean you know banging heads against the bars and just just some other disgusting things you don't want to hear I mean you know damaging themselves you know hurting themselves just to get out of the hole you know I'd see guys at that did things to themselves to get out of to get out of the hole in jail and get sent to the prison so they didn't have to stay in that environment anymore it was just it was just bad that that's nightmare

stuff it really is you um you're quite uncomfortable talking about it aren't you yeah because you know it's kind of demeaning to to and I'm not trying to come off that way I'm not say well I was a tough guy I was able to handle it I was by the grace of God I was able to handle it I had my days and my nights where you know you say God it's one long day it never ends you know and I mean I lost a lot of weight in there I was down to I'm I'm

like 190 something now I was 180 166 when I got out of there because I wouldn't eat you know the food that they gave us I got uh uh tomain poisoning a couple of times I said hey give me cereal give me bananas and give me cup of soup that's all I want to eat I don't want to eat anything else and so I lived on that for quite some time and you know I don't want to make it sound that I mean it wasn't uh you know some of these places where you know you

don't have a toilet or anything else I mean I'm sure there's places around the world that a lot worse could be but it's just the solitary it wasn't so much the conditions you know what I mean we had a sink we had a toilet you had your bed with a little mattress um so that wasn't it was just it was just being solitary that's hard did you did you find yourself losing your own mind in there and whatever that might mean no no Steve honestly and I was pretty I think I have a fairly strong

Constitution as something in me and that's that's god-given you know I can't I can't say I don't know how you don't do you acquire something like that or it's just who you are I don't know but um I was able to deal with it I mean I had my b nights in there you know and you're just fortunately I had a Sony Walkman music was you have no idea music was so soothing I remember one Christmas Eve I had just gotten off the phone with my wife and it was devastating the whole family was there

and it was just and I just put my Walkman on and and it just lifted me out of there for a minute just the music you forget stuff you know um and you know I I got into my Bible during that time and I was listening to a pastor that I had had not known and never met him his name was Greg Lori he's Harvest Crusade huge Pastor here now very dear friend of mine now uh but his words were so uplifting I look forward to listening to him every morning he had a morning radio

shows and so things like that meant a lot and then getting to a phone everything is about the phone and and having uh you know contact with your family so the thing that worried me when my dad went away at that time he got one three minute phone call a month and one visit a month One 8 hour visit that was it so he lost touch with the family and him and my mother drifted apart my sister hardly knew him you know my he he you just can't if you're not in touch with people it

just naturally happens so when I went away my fear was that was going to happen to me and my wife so I did all I wanted I told I told you want to lock me up lock me up just give me my phone calls and give me my visits I don't care what you do I'll take everything else but don't take my phone call don't take my visit I'm not going to do anything that will cause you to do that so don't do it that's all I cared about because I wanted to maintain a relationship

with my wife and she stuck by you she did she did eight years that I did she stuck by me and she was young she had a great mom good Christian mom who held her up our church at that time Westwood Hills Christian Church they rallied around my wife and me and my kids we had little babies back then um and she stood up when I went I I did five years I was home for 13 months very difficult 13 months it was de contract on my life people wanted to kill me and government was

all over me to become a witness and I had a very tough time I violated my parole and when I went in the feds told her you're never going to see your husband free again again we're inditing him on another case we violated his parole he's done he may as well pack it up and she had a breakdown on me at that point she probably couldn't see me for about six or seven weeks she didn't come to visit can you imagine what life would have been like in solitary if she had decided that it was

all too much for her I would have been bitter and and resentful I I don't think I would have come out of there the same I really don't um cuz she meant that much to me still does but cuz I did everything for her basically you know I mean she was the reason why I left that life even though I knew it was a bad life I wouldn't have left I was so indoctrinated Steve when I walked into that room that night I thought I was going to die and yet I walked into the room

wow what a hero it wasn't heroic it was robotic I was so much a part of that life I had seen so much said well it's my turn it's my turn wasn't her Rogue I was scared out of my mind my knees were weak my heart was stumping out of my chest you know and I still didn't want them to realize that I was that scared but I was really scared which room the room your father ton night they walked me I told you they they walk me into that room and I didn't know if

I was going to you know that's one of the horrors of that life the night my dad betrayed me you your dad you walked into that room that night with the bosses there and a lot of other people there and your dad there he wasn't there oh he was left already he had left already Yes they they talked to us uh separately and when they had a conversation with him had they told him that you were going to there was going to be a contract on you I they didn't tell him that but they were

fishing to find out if there was a reason for it to happen you in other words if I believe now this is my perception of that night there was two reasons they walked me in one of two number one trying to scare me to let me know you may be making all this money you may have this big crew that article came out in the paper but we're the boss you try to make a move you're going to die that's what I think that was it was either that or they really believed I was doing

something wrong and they were going to try to take over the business now again remember one of the safeguards I never let him meet that guy and I never L him my crew was my crew I didn't bring them around they were my guys and when we fell nobody no maid guy fell with us it was only my crew so I protected them in that way but but in another way I was safeguarding my business so were they going to look for an excuse that night to take me out very possibly and you think your

dad might have been aware of that yes in a way yes because and again I've struggled with this too okay Dad you you betrayed me that night you threw me under the bus he didn't say well my son did this wrong my son did that he didn't do that he just said I don't know I can't tell you I don't know and that was damaging he didn't stand up for me how'd you know he didn't Jimmy told me and I approached my father two years later he denied it I said Dad I know you did

it it was confirmed I know you did I know what you did but it's okay I love you it's all right I get it I understand the life I get it what did Jimmy tell you told me your father threw you under the BT he didn't help you one bit it's exact words he didn't help you one bit he hurt you in there tonight and you know it was devastating have you forgiven him for that absolutely forgave him you know something happens to you in that in that life you know it's it's like what's right

is wrong what's wrong is right you justify certain things but I understood cuz that night I mean what kind of insanity to walk into a room when you think you're going to get killed or you think you might get that's your perception whether it's real or not that's your perception okay people say why didn't you cut and run robotic okay I was so consumed by the life so this was me okay I'm gonna die tonight scared of course I was scared no I'm not ashamed of it not at all I mean I know that door

opened I almost fainted probably I don't know I because I know a setup you know I walk in it would have been over quick so when that door was going to open I I almost fainted but I can tell you this what I believe now as a person of faith I strongly believe this that the way my life has turned out now two things that bond between my dad and me had to be broken it had to be broken and I had to realize in my life that I could face death if I had to

because when I walked away from that life now I didn't know I was going to walk away but when I walked away from that life you know contract on my life my boss was very upset with me he took it very personal he was a tough guy he was an oldtime real tough guy and he took it very personal you know walk away you don't walk away from this life we're not allowed to do that my dad disowned me for a number of years till we patched it up when they realized I wasn't going to

be testifying against everybody because they thought I was okay this is what he's going to do I wasn't interested that they thought I was going to go into the witness protection program and start hurting guys left and right that's not what I was going to do never would have done that not not in a chance but they didn't know because when guys walk away that's what they do do you think your dad loved you I know he loved me no question I I tell you what the problem with my dad was his Legend in that

life meant everything to him I just can't Square the fact that he would allow you to walk into that room and not defend you with the risk of you dying and at the same time he loves you I like to think that maybe he didn't perceive it that way there was some other there was some other things playing you know this is like uh it was like it's Shakespearean in a way my mother who I loved very difficult woman I I can tell you this she had her issues for whatever reason but you know I

think my mother liked to be my father's wife for time I mean she got a lot of attention right when I became prominent in that life a lot of the attention was not on her and I think she she said some things to my dad you know that kind of maybe got in his head a little bit about me maybe I hate to say this it doesn't sound right and I don't want people to perceive that maybe there was a little jealousy or Envy there I don't know Steve you know I I've never talked like

this before and I I don't like to do it because it puts my my father in a very bad light but sometimes you can play on somebody's mind so much you know especially a woman that he loved um and I know my mother loved me too figure this one out there's no question my mother loved me but I can't explain what took what what dynamic they had going on within them I don't know but uh maybe he there was some resentment there a little bit even though face to face I never experienced that with him

but then this happens in that room I don't know I don't think if if my dad thought I was going to get killed that night I don't think he would have gone through it maybe he maybe he was in on it you know I don't know maybe he said hey let's let's flush my son out I don't know I don't know and and Jimmy wouldn't have known that the guy that drove me so I don't know how do you how do you square all of this because one of the things I think all human beings

love need regardless of how tough they are is love yeah absolutely absolutely and listen I I got my relationship with my dad was never the same especially after I walked away uh you know when when we didn't speak for about 10 years and then when I got out of prison and he was on Parole and we realized he realized I wasn't hurting anybody he said I want to see you called me I said okay he said I'm going to meet you in such and such a place I said nope I'll meet you at the house

your house not going anywhere to meet you Dad almost a little mistrust there I'm going to be honest you know and so I go to see him at uh I go to his house 5:30 in the morning CU I was on Parole had a record at that time I didn't know if I was allowed to see him you know another violation he was on PE I was on PE why did you get to his house I knew my mom was there and I'm in his house I don't have to worry about I wasn't going to

go anywhere where somebody else could have been there you know and I knew my dad wouldn't never do anything in his house that's my feeling so I seen him was 5:30 in the morning I opened the door and he's standing there arms folded he looks at me and his first words to me he said if you would have listened to me you would have been the boss of the Columbo family and I looked at him I said Dad are you in the Twilight Zone or something I said I serve a different Master right now and

he looked to me and he said do you mean this bible stuff is for real with you because I had turned Christian at that point I said yeah it's for real he said okay let's talk and that's kind of how we broke the ice and we spent 3 hours talking and going over a lot of the stuff that happened and you know some of the a anger I had in me I expressed to him you know and some of the things he said you know he what he said to me and I said him I

said to him if you're UNC I said I'm not going back in that life I said dead you see I I wasn't here to hurt anybody but if there's things that you don't want to express just don't tell me I don't want to hear hear it I mean it was a very open hard conversation that he and I had but it was good cuz we came to an agreement and terms after that you know one of the things Steve the about you know the the mob genre on social media is like people talk and they

say think they don't know what really went on with me and my dad and in our personal conversations and all of that and you know well you know you never want to see your dad when your dad died you didn't go to you didn't go to his funeral and I didn't go and I didn't go for a reason cuz number one I knew who else was going to be there I'm not going to go there and be the center of attention or maybe have something happen at my dad's funeral if somebody wants to make remarks

for me and then we're going to it's going to be a bad time in there I've respected my dad enough to do that I went to visit him privately I didn't need to make a show or display out of it and actually people say to me Michael you better off not going you know you don't who knows if there's going to be a scene because I'd walked away from that life other guys might have been friends of my father might have showed up and it could have been confrontational I don't need to do that I'm

not looking to put up put on a show you know so but guys make remarks oh you didn't care about your father they don't know they don't know what went on personally between us none of their business this is probably the most open conversation I've ever had about it publicly maybe at all I don't talk about it what are the stories that you're unable to tell about your time in the mafia you don't have to tell me the stories because you're unable to tell them but what are the nature of those stories that you're unable

to tell cuz you do a lot of interviews these days you're on podc you speak now you know I mean look it's like I said there was a lot of guys that I knew that were gone you know just not there any you know I'll give you an example was a guy that uh was around my dad then became around me I was his captain and and uh he got involved in a drug deal with with somebody that was higher up so he came to me I was at a funeral parlor and he came to

me and he told me what happened and I got mad I said Tony what is the matter with you you've been around all this how the heck did you let this happen I said don't worry about it I'm going to straighten it out and we were at a funeral of a guy that got killed and he said to me you couldn't straight that one out Michael I said don't compare the two situations this was something else I said don't worry about it I'm going to handle it he said Mike they're not going to walk me

into a room I said it's not going to happen relax I promise you I'll take care of you you've been around you're a good soldier you've been around a long time you got a lot of respect don't worry about it you made a stupid mistake we'll clear it I get on my plane I go to Florida my movie was being made down there and I go to Florida I get off the plane one of my guys calls me up he says mike you're not going to believe this what he said Tony went into a foone

booth and blew his brains out he was an old time I so afraid he said I'm not going out nobody's going to take me out walking me into a room and he did it himself so you see things like that in that life and it it's like you know I don't know what to say you know how are you I'm good you know if I if your wife is in a room over there in the Green Room over there in another building um if I were to ask her if I was if I were to

say what what are the type of type of things that Michael struggles with what would you say to me well cuz if you ask my girlfriend that you'd get a laundry list so I imagine your wife would say you know what do I struggle with in the family you know it's funny I'm on the street I got all this stuff going for me in my house I'm just dad you know sometimes I get mad my kids take advantage of me I said I go out of my way for all of you you don't do anything

in return you know you guys don't appreciate anything I guess I still have that you know I'm a pretty giving guy Steve you know I give you everything I can possibly give you just you don't have to give it back to me just treat me right respect is a lot if I feel I'm being disrespected I don't like it even to tell my wife sometimes she he struggles with you know the littlest thing he thinks it's disrespect can't help it that's my nature you know I don't like that I have a guy now you know

you're trying to call him up he doesn't call you back for two three days that's disrespectful you know it's I don't like stuff like that I struggle with it because I see a lot of it around around um you know I don't know what else when people come to you and they ask because you've been a speaker for some time now mhm about two decades almost 25 years actually 25 years what are the key things that people approach you to speak about based on your experience well it's a number I mean look everybody wants to

hear the mob story there's Intrigue with the mob story worldwide and I never realized that when I was in the life until I became what I am now and all over the world people are fascinated with more than any other criminal group they're fascinated with the mafia media why of course all the great movies you know Al Capone John Gotti bigger than life all that stuff so there's a fascination with this life United Kingdom you know two tours there people they don't because you don't have a mafia there you're lucky in that regard but so

people want to hear that but then they want to hear how that life has impacted me how I've been able to get out of it and still you know succeed in a way in their perception I'm succeeding and um but you'll be surprised with this Steve whenever I open it up for a Q&A which is awful you think you're going to hear all the mob questions you don't you know what it is how did your wife react with you after being away so long how did you patch that up how did your kids react to

you how were you able to adjust you know did you feel you were doing the right thing how is your struggles people and I'm saying to myself these people might be going through these same things in a different way and wow I came out of a tough situation how did I make it can they apply it to their own lives people are struggling you know and I see it more and more and more if I wanted to spend my time mentoring to people all the time I would I would be overloaded just from social media

and emails and texts that I get and it's it's a good feeling don't get me wrong that people see something in me that maybe can be helpful to them and I pursue it as much as I can as a matter of fact I'm starting a platform now I think it's come to that point you know God has put it on my heart that maybe it's time to you know offer these people something more than just the conversation and so we are starting a platform where we can create this kind of family or Community where not

only I can be of assistance but my team can and people can start to you know uh help one another I think we need that more than ever we'll link that below if you if you are able to send me a link to that so people can check it out I I understand why there is Intrigue I think a lot of people will be intrigued because the mafia you know I as I said to you before we start recording I haven't watched mafia movies I don't really know anything about the mafia I've been enlightened today

it's quite fascinating I feel like I'm going to go watch of the movies but the thing that I found so compelling is just what I can learn from it because I think everybody that's lived a anomalous life where they've done something different and they've walked a different path has something different that they've learned that is also a fundamental truth IE regardless of what you've done um whatever Divergent path you've taken you've learned a bunch of fundamental principles of how the world Works how people work how to navigate how to survive um and some of those

principles are super applicable to the today life I've learned so much about even business the concept of having a sit down you know we don't in business we there's not enough cander there's not enough honesty there's not enough Frank conversations in that regard there's lots of emails brainstorms this person's on annual leave we're going to talk on blah blah blah but there's not enough of that frankness so those are the things that I really wanted to understand if you've got any more of those for me in terms of how because you're a businessman now and

you're an entrepreneur in this season of life and some of those principles that you learned from the mafia days must still be absolutely well I'll tell you this and I'm sure this is a principle that you follow you don't look like a micromanager to me well I don't know a good are you well I don't know I don't know do you know what the honest answer is yeah the honest answer is I think and you can ask my team privately um actually Jack come over here yeah yeah yeah no because I genuinely want to know

the truth I want to know the actual truth does your microman no Jack you come over oh if you got can you speak into that mic yeah it can pick you up yeah okay Jack 100% honesty I think in some areas you can be a micromanager but I think in other areas you're not and then I think when you need to be you are yeah I think I think I am and I'm not and it's and it's a real dichotomy I.E and again this is just my opinion well I don't know if I've got the

self- awareness for this to be accurate but tell I okay I think that I'm obsessed with the smallest details of a system and I like to understand the smallest details of a system system to some degree and I think when I get to a point where I realize honestly this is what it is that whoever's running that system can do it way better than me MH I resign to it and I don't I don't feel like I'm I'm at all necessary and so this for example with this production there's nothing I can tell Jack about

cameras right there's zero I don't know anything about these bloody cameras or about what he does in postproduction you want to know anything about it no good because because he's because I trust him but there are instances with other team members or within other businesses that I run where I don't have the trust yet and I've always said to my team and people don't like this but you can't fake trust TR trust for me is evidence so like like what how do I describe this if I told you to believe that I was the spaghetti

monster no matter how much you wanted to will that and I said I'm going to give you a million dollars in cash right now if you believe I'm the spaghetti monster all of the evidence you have says that I'm a human being I've got two arms two legs so all you could do is lie right but you wouldn't actually believe it and I think trust is the same like if it's evidence you do or don't have I have so much evidence that Jack doesn't need to be told anything about production because he's you know so

that's kind of how my how my system works so on one end I think a lot of my team and I've heard them say in interviews before that I've given them immense freedom in certain areas and then in other elements I think I am I can be monarchal about detail and being the Leeds well my motto and it's worked for me most of the time um when I'm when I'm really paying attention I'm older now I used to be a little bit different when I was younger I was more Hands-On but I came to a

conclusion early on um you can't micromanage because when you micromanage you're taking yourself away from your best talent and the thing that you can contribute to the best in your business and um so I always said do what I do best delegate the rest and then hopefully you have the talent to motivate the people and get the most out of them so it's it's it's a double sword double-edged sword do what you do best mhm delegate the rest but motivate motivate them to the point where you're getting the most out of them that's critical that's

critical because you can't do everything well you know that no I know yeah you know and and and it's um you know and I always say this too I tell people get your personal life in order because normally your business is going to be a reflection of your personal life in some way shape or form and you can't do both you can't do one well and do the other not good because they're going to affect one another so have your personal life in order be a reflection your business will be a reflection of your personal

life and if you can do that do what you do best delegate the rest give your personal life in order your business will be a reflection to that and and you're going to do okay I believe it Michael we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for and the question that's been left for you is what is one event conversation or experience that was your aha light bulb that influenced or changed your life look I think

the unfortunately uh you know these are defining moments and in the course of my life there's been more than one but uh really two I I'll boil it down to two one was with my dad and during that time when he proposed me into the life and the second one was with the pastor of the church that married me that I hardly knew and when we going to get married in that church I was with him and my wife and for some reason and I was still a mob guy at that point I told my

wife I said I want you to leave I want to speak to Dr Taylor Dr myin Taylor he was and he was he was a pastor and I sat down with him and I said doc you don't know my background I said but I've done a lot of bad things in my life was part of a rough lifestyle my wife is telling me you know I could be forgiven for these things is it possible and he really opened up to me and it was a very inspiring conversation because I really he such a good man

I mean I got to know and love this man he's passed on now but he married us but um and he was the one that filled me with some hope that yeah well maybe maybe I can't turn this around because up till then I I didn't know you know my wife was a Christian and I was marrying her and I respected her for her faith but I wasn't buying into it you okay you know and my mother-in-law strong woman of Faith but I wasn't buying into it myself CU I said they don't know who I

am and then I had this conversation and it planted the seeds to say you know what maybe there is something else maybe I can undo some of the thing not undo them but change some of the things changed the path of my life had it and it was a short time maybe half hour the most but meaningful and that's ultimately where your life began to change yeah you found God yes or you found me one of the two I don't know what is your closing message Michael you know it's it's a message um hopefully of

encouragement and hope you know to people that are struggling and facing challenges in their life and you know you don't always be defeated by your past and you're not always defined by your past you can change that in many cases not in every case but in many cases and I think I'm an example of that and it's been inspiring to people and it's extremely rewarding to me to know that I've been able to turn it around to a point where it's been a positive influence on people so I like people to know that that's that's

what motivates me to continue to speaking it's not about you know it's about the way people react and you see that there's hope it's the emails the text the messages hey you've inspired me you know you've you've given me hope and uh I want people to know that you know you're not defined by your past all the time and you can make changes in your life I mean that's certainly one of the very inspiring messages you leave me with is just this idea that in all of our Lives it's going to come in seasons and

we're able and um we have the permission to change with the seasons we don't have to be fixed to an identity or to a past or to an old job title or to a group of people we used to associate with at any time we can make the decision although it's not going to be fast to become who we always were I guess you know I I as started this conversation asking you who you were yeah I I kind of suspect you were you you're the same person you always were fundamentally but circumstances changed beliefs

have changed your who you're accountable has to has changed yes your values have become refined you know and all these things but it's at the end of the day it's the same human being but with a different sense sent of principles and purpose in their life and I look back at my life and it's the same I haven't always been great I haven't always done good things there were tough Parts where I did things that I'm not proud of and probably wouldn't say on camera too much but um I think that's really important I think

the the best thing for Humanity is that people have a chance to evolve and can be forgiven and move on and they're they're judged for how they show up today your book is incredibly inspiring it's also incredibly fascinating um Mafia democracy by yourself and the forward on here is from Rudy Giuliani which I thought was hilarious because I know that he was an enemy for much of your careers and he was trying to destroy you give you a 100e sentence he was instrumental in imposing some of the laws that shut down the mafia's Heyday as

well and thank you for your honesty because although I know it's not always easy to recount certain memories from certain chapters of our life in doing so you Enlighten us to the true nature of what it is to be a human and um the complexities of what it is to be a human and all the forces that are in play in all of us at all the all of the time um and that's inspiring but it's also liberating um because even though we've walked very different lives you know there's so many similarities and so many

lessons that I've learned from you so thank you Michael I appreciate you well I appreciate that and I want to tell you I'm very inspired by you you know like I said I'm very impressed when somebody at a young age has it together works hard and uh and reaches the level that you've reached at a young age I mean it's very inspiring we need you know I hope you continue to be uh you know an example of somebody that can just really put their head to the grind and make it and I've I've read up

on you and I know that's what you've done you've created a great great business here and just keep going thank you Michael okay thank you got it [Music] oh [Music]