How To Get Rid of EGO and Promote Humility - Jocko Willink

hey listen Jocko I know that keeping the ego in check is an important principle I read about it extreme ownership you talk about it all the time got to be humble but at my company ego is a huge problem how do I get my company to start promoting the ideal of humility and how do I get them to recognize that ego is such a big problem now this is a really good question once again because you can imagine what this individual's right like you know you're at a company where there's a lot of egos going

on and all of a sudden you have a little moment of enlightenment you realize that ego is causing you a lot of problems so you start putting your own ego in check and then you go how this is working I'm doing better I'm coordinating better I'm working in my interpersonal relationships with the other people on the team are better my relationships with people on other teams are better we're getting more done because our relationships are better I'm putting the team and the mission above myself that means the team in the mission are doing better that's

great so you realize all this stuff and then you say okay well how do I start to spread the word how do I get other people to do this and this is a tricky question right it's a tricky thing because if some if like let's say your team has you see that ego is a problem and you sit him down and go listen guys you're you're all you all got big egos and that's the problem I mean you're gonna run into level 9 defensiveness you're actually gonna it's actually go beyond offensiveness they're gonna start attacking

you now just gonna happen you got all these crazy egos they're gonna gang up there likes unites they'll put their egos aside for a split second so that can unite against you so you can't confront them and and once again are there certain relationships that you can have with someone where I go and if let's say you and me and you had a ego and put you and I were really tighten I said hey man you're letting your ego get in the way of this sure that kid that that is a possibility that is a

very rare occurrence most of the people that you work with on a regular basis you don't have that type of a relationship the other thing is when someone has a big ego that's not the type of person that's open to those kind of criticisms anyways so it's like there's two two hurdles that you have to overcome number one your relationship isn't usually that good at number two they have a big ego which is part of the problem and that's what makes the problem hard to attack mm-hmm so what are you gonna do in in what

I gotta throw this one more little thing when people talk about the you know have someone say put put wouldn't it be better if you could just talk to him wouldn't it be better if you just you know put down on some bullet eyes list and said hey here's the things that your ego there's the problems that you guys are problem causing look I get it and isn't it great to have direct conversation isn't it great if I can just sit you down if echo if you and I have this mind meld where you just

know one hundred-percent looking out for you and you're open to great like if we have that that's in an ideal world that's great mmm-hmm that's great golf claps it's great the problem is it doesn't exist very often and confronting someone that has an ego about the Ricoh can often just exacerbate the problem yeah so here's what you do instead of self identifying the problem and pointing the fingers at other people which by the way is placing blame which is a problem so instead of doing that what we're gonna do is start pulling the thread on

some of the problems that we're having on the team so for instance this group over here needs some help on their part of the project but no one's helping them what's going on if you start to pull the thread on that you'll find at the end of that thread they'll be hanging some egos whether it's the ego of the person that doesn't want to ask for help or whether it's the ego of the other person that doesn't want to give help because they think they need to do their own job that's oh I'm not gay

I'm not doing that mmm so you pull the thread and at the end you'll find these little egos hanging and then what you do is you just expose and you say what do you think the root of the problem isn't you start pulling that thread and you get to a point where someone says you can finally have an open conversation where you say where someone finally says we no I I guess I I guess I could use some help you just discovered it so that's like a cover and move situation right if the cover and

move isn't happening and it isn't happening because of egos if you pull the thread you'll get to the end of the thread and it will be attached to someone ego in most cases is there a possibility that it's like hey this group doesn't know what the other groups don't yeah absolutely those are but those are easy problems to solve cuz we can just pull the thread we find at the end oh we need to we need better coordination between these two teams cool there it is when you pull the friend it comes out the the

little egos dangling on the end of it then you go okay let's expose these and let's try and ask questions to figure out and get people to realize what they're looking at hmm you want them to come to that conclusion that's the trick that's the maneuver is to get them to come to a conclusion and they might never verbalize it but they go you know in their mind they're like I guess I didn't want to ask for help in the way so there's one you know if you got people that are taking aren't keeping things

simple just go through the laws combat simple make people are making the plans too complex and yet they keep doing it and they're when it when you go and say you know these plans seem like they're really complex and of course they say something like hey that I don't think everyone understood the plan seemed to be it seemed kind of complex and the person says people need to pay more attention went on briefing and you pull on that right the frontline troops they need more detail because they otherwise they're gonna screw up that's why it's

so complex it's like okay let's look at what's really happening what's really happening is I've created a plan that I won't give up because my ego is too big right when you pull that thread and you go listen - hey the the frontline troops don't understand what to do it's like that could be a real problem mm-hmm and and maybe and there's nothing you give them a little out you give me a little out like you know maybe we just need to back it off a little bit so that they can understand it maybe they're

not as smart as yeah little Eagle massage because it's fine you don't want fine I'll simplify it boom and in the meantime you've given them a little indication look if you confront them that's what I'm saying it's hard for people who want to play the long game here because the short game is it you're you're you think you're so smart your plants do complex and you're sticking with them because you've got a big ego how's that gonna work out he's not gonna work out good can it work out 4% of the time yes the other

the other 96% of the time you get a defensive person that's now accusing other people it's take the indirect and play the long game take the indirect attack and play the longer prioritize and execute right why is that failing because again this question is egos a problem so where does ego manifest as a problem it can manifest as a problem in in prioritize and execute because if someone's got a big ego and they're not getting things done and they go I can get it done because their ego thinks they can do anything right or prioritize

connects execute ego can be a problem if you have a project and I have a project and you need help and your project is actually more important and I should give you resources but instead of like my initiative just as important as Echo's is yeah which is just my ego I should look at it and say okay you know what you should be the priority and another good one is yeah well it's just what I just said like hey I'm not gonna give up why should I have to give my resources to echo those are

mine no actually what's the what's the biggest priority okay put my ego aside Echo's priority is actually bigger than mine I'm gonna give him four of my people so that he can get the job done so when you pull the thread on this and you say well hey hey why is it jakka why is it you don't want to give people to echo and I'm like well you know what if something else comes up else comes up you can get back well you know that they gotta learn to respect the chain of command well there's

still work for you they'll just be loaned over to echo whoa you see them saying yes it's just ego ego ego ego so these are the kind of problems that manifests themselves inside of a company wrapped around ego mm-hmm and decentralized command you can have the same thing happen with decentralized command how does he go cause a problem with decentralized command it's like this hey I noticed that um you know you seem to be making all the decisions and the folks out in the field don't really have the opportunity to kind of make calls why

is that I'm the only one that has the experience to do this they don't have the skill that I have right so there's all these reasons that that's one of those are ego problems right and and by the way if it's if it's not an ego problem then then then I say oh you know what because I haven't really trained that guys well enough and I'm gonna you know what you're right I've been making way too many detailed decisions for the guys out in the field I need to get down there make sure they know

what's going on train them better so that I can back off cool that's a person that's got their ego check the person that's like I'm the only one that can do this like no you can't you know you're not and if you are you're wrong because right now you got three people working for you what happens when you have eight you're gonna go around the field in all these different locations to make every single decision no you can't mm-hm so get your ego under control realize that you're not the only one that can do this

job and train your people properly again that's a direct assault probably going to cause problems instead if we just pull the thread on it hey what's going on well it seems like your folks down the field don't have a lot of authority well you know they don't experience oh okay you it's kind of cumbersome though like them reaching back to you all the time to make these decisions it is but you know I'm the one that really knows how to do it huh I mean what happens if you know you're sick or you know you

someone's gotta you know have communications with them do you think it would be a good idea you know since you have so much knowledge and experience to maybe pass that on to some of the other people oh yeah okay cool let's make that happen and then obviously ego can absolutely manifest itself when it comes to taking ownership I mean all day long right what other that project failed what happened would my subordinates don't know don't want to step up okay so therefore why what why are your subordinates taking ownership cuz they don't even know what

ownership is didn't want to take ownership okay so it's not your fault no okay well what can we do to help them mm-hmm pull the string and you at the bottom the person will see it's the rego they might not admit it but they'll see it and then they can start to make adjustments now look can any of these situations escalate in a point where in direct indirect in direct indirect doesn't work and eventually you say you know what well I gotta go I gotta sit echo down and say listen here's what I think is

the root of the problem the root of the problem is you think you're the only one that knows how to do this and in thinking that you're not training to be like I might have to get that direct it does happen we prefer to use the minimum force required required when it comes to leadership just like being a bouncer yes sir right it's not hey the guy's a little out of line hit him in the head with a blackjack no it's like hey hey sir you know I think you've had enough for tonight okay can

you come with me that's minimum force Ricard if the guy says okay cool it's problem solved if he's if he sees you I'm not going anywhere okay well we have to escalate it's the same thing here but don't start with the direct attack mm-hmm just like you don't Club the person out of the gate I think it's a slapjack I'm not sure yeah okay that's what you're talking about that young as their thing yeah yeah a blackjack yeah blackjack yeah did you guys not use those that's silly I think those are illegal to that legal

yeah yeah the slapjack one guy had one but yeah very illegal so we don't want to escalate straight to the blackjack or even a slapjack even if anyone's using a slapjack I think it's called a slap yeah okay I'm not sure point remains I dig it fairly confident you're wrong but not 100% yeah I'm like I'm like you know in someone you know when you're pretty confident about something that somebody who just throws a little randomness into the soup and it makes you question yeah yeah that's how I feel right now yeah that's real confident

with a little bit of questions it makes you feel any better that's my everyday life so that's the answer to this question is really pulling the thread on the problem to reveal the root of the problem which you're gonna see is ego and then it's there for the people hopefully to see it to recognize it - possibly admit it maybe not give them an out where they can actually make an adjustment without taking the ownership the Eagle because that's okay yeah we're trying to win right we're trying to let the team win we're not trying

to we're not yet what my goal is not to make you admit it cuz you know what that is that's my ego oh yeah sure yeah it's got a big yeah get him to a minute that's not my goals my goal is to make you make better decisions as a leader so that we win as a team yeah so that's what we're that's what we're trying to do here it's really interesting that how you laid that out cuz used to do that to me no probably still do but it was less about the ego I

think anyway and maybe it's all the same maybe at the end of the it's all the same because skating you're trying to dancer right so explain to me how I would do this - you do with the excuses okay so like if something didn't get done or can't get done or I think it's too hard and really most of the time if I'm remembering correctly it was at the end of the a this is what it was it was like I'm too lazy or whatever you know so it always be like this excuse like well

you know that's this or that's that and then you'd have all these just like how you're saying and I and it it made me remember this because of your tone how you're like kind of saying those little that's the same things with me like no simple just like pull just here here's the solution to that problem right here because there's all these little excuses that you make you know like oh I didn't really have time because I had to do this and you'd be like okay then you just do this you know and that'll solve

that particular problem you didn't have this big comprehensive plan to solve in my life problem you're like okay for every excuse oh and make you just have the little solve you know the problem or the solution to it and I'd be like man and meanwhile you're getting backed into this corner or the string is just getting pulled like every with every pool is lazy oh yeah like I just was too lazy or I'm just like stuck in this routine or whatever and then it so it could in a way be like okay that's just my

ego just thinking that the way that's not the way I do things kind of thing and and think if I were to use the different tone well think if I would have just said that's good you're lazy oh yeah yeah you just being lazy Aiko yeah you've been like do you even know what it takes to make one of these things oh you don't know me and then all of a sudden we and what does that do to our relationship yeah and what does that do to to to the final product yeah yeah right now

you're doing something against your will stainless stain on it yeah fully in the if you would have just been like hey you're lazy this is what my mind would have went to this belief this actually and in a way it's true but it doesn't like get anyone anywhere where if you would be like you're lazy I would have thought and maybe even said that it's not that I'm lazy it's just you're just this crazy hard worker who have these standards that are unreasonable for a normal person and I'm just a normal person excuse me you

know kind of an attitude that's what I would go to rather than if you like the way how you always do it is like you pull the string or you just sort of you don't say no it's interesting to us when I'm doing that I'm not doing that like okay I got here's my next move on that go yeah actually what I'm doing is like well you know you say well we can't I can't make a video because it's gonna take me too long to get through the the raw edits and I go you know

I said like what you know if you want just get you you know hire someone to do those raw edits for you would that work yeah you know what I mean oh I'm asking you a legitimate question oh yeah maybe I kind of know the answer I mean I suspect I know the answer but it's not it's not just hey I I'm setting you up I'm legitimately pulling the thread yeah and the answer might be it is impossible to get this project done but when I say well you could hire someone to do those right

that's and then you go okay well even if I hire someone how am I going to transfer all this data and I go well if you want what couldn't you get an external hard drive and and just physically give it to him yeah and you'd say well these are actual situations no no no I don't know the realm of video well the main the one that I remember the easiest is like with training like you'll be hey we're training at 4:30 but I trained during the day most evening oh not in the evening then you'll

be like oh yeah train at 4:30 I'm like well you know and I have all these reasons and then you like you kind of just chip away at all these reasons like oh here's the solution to that is a solution a solution that's like man I just that's just like my routine I just gotta admit it you know like I and but I don't get to train with you guys as often you know kind of thing but it's like yeah you expose you pull the string to expose just like the little the little excuses Chuck

so pull the thread reveal the problem don't confront if you can help it and people will start to recognize what the problem is I mean this is assuming you're working with this well doesn't want this one problem with this and that is if the person has a giant ego that this is the hardest thing for them to admit right so they might not admit it but they'll see it they'll behave differently and by the way one of the good ways to to use someone's ego against themselves is when you say something along the lines of

you know man it's gonna look good if this gets done right you know what I'm saying and they think oh cool I'm gonna do this I'm gonna make this adjustment just so it gets done just so my ego can get just so I can win yeah that doesn't say that use the word win because every time like use the word win and any time what I'd be thinking like okay if I didn't win whatever you know what's left you lost yeah no matter what excuse you make you lost so if you put if you put

the shed light on like use that word and be like hey this will make you win and you're like hell yeah but at the same time the vacuum mind like basically if we don't solve these problems or whatever I lose I don't want that so it's like extra motivate the it's the winning at all cost thing and so the winning at all costs I wrote like a little section and it was a part of a one of the special releases on Barnes and Nobles version of dichotomy a leadership was this thing winning at all costs

and it's and then someone posted and I had I had said it before right and someone posted a clip of me saying this idea of winning at all costs and it's the way that I talk about it it's kind of a trick anyways because I go through this thing about what is leadership and AG leadership as this leadership to that and I said what leadership is to me is winning at all costs and somebody put that probably you put a clip up of me saying that and somebody said of course someone's like that's the kind

of person that will run people over and like it was like gave a negative things right but what they don't realize is what the rest of that clip says and what the rest of that whole idea of winning at all costs is what I'll do it want to win it all costs is totally subordinate my ego help other people support them give them what they need and put my foot put the team and the mission above myself cuz the moat that's how I'm gonna win at all costs so winning at all cost doesn't mean I'm

stepping on other people it means of actually lifting other people up that's what it means so if you can use that you know if I say hey echo man look we need to win and you if we're gonna win the only way to win is if you can learn how to work with Jim otherwise we lose and you're like you know what because I'm a winner I'll work with Jim cool it's a first step yeah yeah