Yunus on Hasina: She can call herself Bangladesh PM, reality differs | Talk to Al Jazeera

always I'm Clark at cop 29 in the azani capital of Baku where the world's attention is focused on tackling the climate crisis for Bangladesh the risks are especially severe ranked among the top Nations for climate disaster risk the country could lose 177% of its land to Rising Seas by 2050 wiping out 30% of its farmland and endangering millions of people people but Bangladesh faces more than environmental threats just months ago Mass protests and unrest forced out the Prime Minister she Casina Noble laurat Muhammad yunas was appointed to replace her as head of the interim government

known globally as the banker to the poor Unice now faces the difficult task of uniting a divided nation today as he takes the world stage here at cop 29 Unice discusses not only Bangladesh's climate emergency but also political reforms relations with India and new diplomatic challenges with the United States as Donald Trump in Eunice once publicly criticized returns to the White House Muhammad yunas Chief adviser of Bangladesh talks to Al jazer Muhammad Unis thank you for talking to as head of Bangladesh's interim government you're here at cop 9 in Baku with other world leaders as

well and given Bangladesh's vulnerability what do you need as a nation to come from this event first of all to make people aware that the vulnerability for Bangladesh is of extreme form uh many countries don't realize it and there are other countries uh an existential uh issue for them at the island countries so we want to highlight that what is happening on the front line let say on the climate part at the same time What personally I try to raise the question draw attention it's not about uh taking some projects here and projects there to

solve the climate issue climate is a global issue it has to be solved in a global framework not a project here and project there I'm not dis dis discarding the project they are important it's important for Bangladesh but that stop Gap Arrangements you do the damage and you kind of clean up the damage but you are not stopping the damage system MH so I said why do you fix this some keep on fixing things while the damage process goes on and get worse so I'm drawing the process itself what it is I said this is

rooted in a more fundamental way rather than just one project or the other I highlighted by saying is rooted in our uh lifestyle so unless we change our lifestyle we cannot change the basic problem of the environment so that's your message to the world that's message to the world but Bangladesh is also on the front line in in climate preparedness and reducing deaths from extreme wild weather events and with early Warning Systems so that kind of thing again these are kind of helpful for tackling this but they do stop those things they will keep coming

you preparing to tackle it I said this is temporarily okay okay but fundamental is wrong because you're not fixing the system I said we go back to the fundamental because it's not going to end it will G worse for Bangladesh and the whole world of course there were allegations of corruption and mismanagement which uh you alleged exacerbated shika's uh time and power and made problems worse for the environmental challenges that Bangladesh faces what transparency measures are you implementing to ensure that doesn't have Bangladesh uh is kind of deep in corruption because of the system that

we had for the last 16 years mismanagement misgovernance destroying of Institutions all the system all the policies and institutions gone down the drain so we have a big task of kind of bringing it up and Point by Point sector by sector bring Clean cleaning process and not just for the time being fundamental changes so that uh uh we clean it up not uh for for the time being for the all time to come in how to institutions can function how government offices are feared because the moment you get in touch with the government office somebody

is going to torture you because they will squeeze you to get some money and so on said this is a shame government is supposed to be helpful to people now Citizen look at government offices as a torture chamber that once you get into it they will squeeze you to get more money from you so that's the corruption part that kind of spread out all throughout the system but how do you ensure I mean this particular cup is all about Finance isn't it raising trillions of dollars especially for developing nations like yours but how do you

ensure that given that past history in Bangladesh uh that said to have happened how do you ensure that those environment funds don't get deviated you know with corruption to places they fund small part of the whole thing that we do well funds in general yeah I'm talking in Fund in general not just environment fund uh one way is to not to let citizens be in touch or in uh presence of a government office physically so luckily digitization helps us that way so you don't have to come physically you do it through your internet to your

uh uh digital system and so on and do everything most of the thing can be done so the services that can be provided financial services and other services can be done through that so we are trying to transform system like the taxation system uh any other system where you have to make payments to anybody or any service to be get get done by the government uh we'll come on to the how much time you have in charge of the government a little bit later but let's talk about India and and Bangladesh's relationship with India it

obviously remains critical especially in terms of resources and shared water and River resources as you look to the Future how will that be managed we have to work together I mean this is a Bangladesh alone cannot solve the problem we need collaboration we need cooperation from India because all the sources of rivers are in India or passing through India coming from Nepal coming from further north uh coming to India to Bangladesh and Bangladesh in most of the major river system is the end point where Rivers end up their water in Bay of Bengal so the

source is somewhere else in Tibet in Nepal inang India uh so we so in order to have a decent system where people benefit from the water rather than get uh uh killed by the water uh we need to have a good water system management together it's a it cannot be done alone and I'm sure it can be done and talking of India of course this is where sh Cina is right now uh how does your Administration view her being there and the statements and pronouncements that she is making from that uh We complain about uh

her doing that because uh this uh uh kind of destabilizes Bangladesh because she's making uh speeches calling for movements inside of Bangladesh this is not going to be helpful for Bangladesh at all so we draw attention to the Indian authorities that you have host you are hosting her that's fine but also please make sure that uh she doesn't create problem for us then we have to go back and complain to you that you are hosting something which is bad for us so we we should I should we should be able to kind of resolve it

ambly between India and Bangladesh well of course she's still calling herself prime minister she can call herself many things but uh that's not what the reality is and even India says she's ex prime minister so even her host is not recognizing her anything but an ex prime minister will you be pushing for her extradition yes because there's a legal process going on and he found guilty and definitely she'll be asked for repatriation and in terms of upcoming elections initially you were to be in charge for a short period of time there's talk of that being

extended what's the reality no it was never imagined as a short period somebody Define it was said the highlight of the whole government was reform cu the whole student movement is to create a new Bangladesh their you word is new Bangladesh new Bangladesh is not going to come uh through just holding an election holding an election is a repetition of the old ways of doing things in politics and so on so we want to get rid of those things and that's what the population of the whole country wanted something new something different than the old

so that needs many things that means a reform of uh legal system uh because Judiciary was taken over by the government completely corrupted and so on uh it needs the police system freshly designed and so on it needs most of all reform of the Constitution the very fundamentals of the law is in the Constitution so how do you redesign the Constitution so we have design Define or appointed uh commissions like on the uh um institution commission law Reform Commission and everything else uh Election Commission uh election Reform Commission so that takes time they're supposed to

submit their reports in end of December there will be no election until those reports are submitted yes that's a whole idea I said there are two parallel thing going on one is the preparation for election and there is the preparation for all the reforms done and it's up to the people up to the political parties to decide which way to go the election it's we say kep that we reminding that the train has left the election uh on the election rout so it's moving on so at one point it will be ready for an election

and we'll keep asking the people of Bangladesh uh would you like to go to the election now or you rather have re these reforms done because you already are participating but isn't the sense that people do want an election as soon as possible that that's something that ultimately it's up to you no no it's not up to us it's up to them we always saying we are Consulting with you we are not imposing anything if you say go ahead do the election forget about reform we'll do the election you say no no no no it's

very important because no other government can do that you're the only lucky government in the whole history that you can do this kind of thing and if all the political parties agree with it it's done so we reformed that and then give the election ex you must have a sense in your mind about when the right time would be approximately no I don't have any or certainly a limit as to how long you are prepared to stay as an interim I think everybody has inter government we are not his Perpetual government with the regular government

is for 5 years for example that's about it or the new constitution may say four years probably because people want faster uh time of the so it should be under four years that's for sure uh it may be less so it's all question of what people want the population uh the political parties one if political parties say forget about it give the election let's do it we'll do it we you have a chance uh you didn't take it it's so you could be you could be interim head for four years which is pretty much a

you electoral term isn't it I didn't say that that I'll be for 4 years I'm saying this is the term that maximum that one can grow but that's not our intention Our intention to get it done as quickly as possible would you stand for election no I'm not a politician I enjoy my role what I have been doing at my last stage of my life I'm not going to change that Amnesty International have raised concerns about your administration's handling of minority rights how do you plan to address those issues we keep on focusing on the

issue again and again completely because this we keep reminding that look you are the citizen of the country Constitution gives you your right uh uh Freedom right to express yourself right to practice your own religion these are guaranteed by the Constitution so this is not something coming from your side it's our responsibility as a government to make sure citizens enjoy the rights guaranteed by the Constitution but there are reports aren't there of increased violence against minorities including Hindus not increased violence I would say decreased violence violence started During the period of revolution uh not because

again they are Hindu je or other religion because mostly they were a leers so they were against a leers the most of the Hindus happen to be amers so they were angry with the Ames and these are the people who were uh active in the am so how are you going to bridge that divide how are you going to resolve that uh resolve the question well yeah the issue of you know these factions being against each other no we don't see the factions against we said this is the whole one one family we have disagreements

but that doesn't mean we are enemies of each other there's a law there's a rights our job is to ensure all the rights to every citizen of course you'll know that the new president elect of the United States he's weighed in on this isn't he before the election he he condemned the ongoing what he perceived as the ongoing treatment in Bangladesh of minorities of course there is this is mostly propaganda it's has totally baseless propaganda it's unfortunate uh most of these propaganda originates from Indian sides for whatever reason it maybe uh to keep this tension

uh alive probably uh but in reality it doesn't exist we had the case of that their most celebrated Puja worship that the Hindus have and thousands of uh Puja sides were done with celebrations and so on with no incident at all so well you and he have not got on that well in the past have you there's a certain tension I think I'd be right and saying it how do you plan to handle that between you and president Trump I had no interaction with President Trump in the past so I had no problem with him

uh in a personal way if you talk about Republican party I have friends in Democratic party I have friends in republ party it was a house uh which voted for Congressional gold medal for me uh 100% uh consensus by the both parties we had no problem there so I don't have never had any problem so far as Republican party is concerned or Democratic party is concerned or uh Trump is concerned so I don't see any negative thing emerging suddenly uh because uh Trump is the president of the United States I think foreign policy of the

United States is not something switches back and forth depending on who's the president there a stable part of uh that uh policy right so you don't think he he would take a different stance towards the region absolutely no way no way shakeena alleged that the United States played a role in her housting the Biden Administration denied that what do you think about that if you are in Bangladesh you'll be crazy to things like that is these students who are demonstrating on the SE giving their life and when the mobs were moving into their house from

all Direction hundreds of thousands of mob moving into their house it was her family saying it's time to run away because otherwise mob will just take over this whole house and will be done so they she invited the Army to help her to get out of the country and Army helped her to get out of the country go to India and that's how it happened it's it's not somebody instructing from somebody sending some army or somebody it's not like that this student movement and joined by entire population of the country when that happened yeah were

you surprised or could you see it coming first of all I was not in the country so I was not seeing our toour development I'm only seeing what is press in the Press uh I got the n result what happened because I was invited to uh head the government I got a telephone call that we invite you to form the government so the country was without a government for 3 days because I was not there so when I arrived I take oath and the is form so this is the kind of uncertainties um unpredictable things

that were happening and nobody was planning from somebody somewhere to PL string that this is going to happen it was not like that but looking on from afar as these events unfolded and sha left the country were you surprised everybody was surprised because uh this was so sudden uh she was so entrenched nobody thought she was really run away uh the students are coming people are joined by uh the students are joined by all the people in the country there was a massive amount of mobilization from all over the country uh moving towards Daka and

movies toward moving to par house so that was something unheard of there something unplanned for uh and nobody knew that this will happen the expectation was is something will happen because the whole country is against her but it happened but not the whole country not the whole country whole country yes whole country well there's fairly large element that were in support of her and still are are you sure there's a large element of these people these are small people but with lots of power that's how they uh rule the country so when I say whole

country I mean whole country against them when you got that phone call asking you to become interim head how much consideration did you have to give it was it an instant response to say I'm going to do that first of all uh my first response was look I don't want to be involved in politics that's what I was always trying to stay away from uh so I don't think I should get in I said you think it over find find somebody else to uh run the country uh not me so you come back and call

me tomorrow see what you have decided so they called me next day they said we dis debated and discussed uh you should take over so we are waiting for you uh and you have to please agree so finally I said look you have given lives for this and you have suffered so much for this uh if you have done so much already uh I will forget what I had uh said before and I'll I'll accept your invitation and I'll come back so I came back Bangladesh's economy is not strong it relies on IMF support uh

in what is a Current financial crisis how do you view that and how confident are you that you can emerge out of it oh it's terrible we the whole economy is in terrible shape uh previous government has made so many big projects billions of dollars projects this way that way and the whole banking system is totally destroyed billions of dollars have been transferred from Bangladesh to her cronies and other people taken away so the it's in shambles and the foreign exchanges are went down so when we took back uh the whole system uh we got

a devastated system an economy which dysfunctional economy and so on so luckily world has been very supportive of us so we got tremendous amount of supports everywhere so they will help you to survive to continue and so on so we went to International organizations we went to the governments and so on uh to help us out to provide us the finance provide us the system and so on and they very very warmly supported us and that's what helped us to settle the all the problems of the banking system put in shape and also the international

transactions and make big payments we already make big payments out out of Bangladesh without touching the uh uh Reserve our International Reserve that we have uh we let it alone Be by current income we could uh pay the uh our what whoever had those bills how how and when will that kind of resetting feed into down into the man on the street the pockets the man and the woman on the street and so they can feel that you know they have more ability to to spend money already they're feeling it because this a system now

is something that they can rely on it's not wild going going inflation is not going wild our foreign exchange is not disappearing our foreign exchang is building up every month so people have assured and their jobs are there so we see that the confidence is coming back uh what's your assessment of of uh how the political parties are going to be set up within Bangladesh and first start with the student L Monsoon Revolution which play it played a key role as we've been talking about in uh Hena ating you've you've recognized key student leaders haven't

you but isn't there a danger of factionalism within any new government no I just see the there's a political parties traditional political parties are there they are not free these people couldn't function before uh due under the Pres previous most of them they were in jail hundreds of thousands of these workers were in jail they're released they're active so the old political parties actively participating and so on and collaborating with the interim government so we are very happy with that so we don't see any problem with the political system they're uh now waiting to see

how to participate in the uh reform system and also the election and that applies to the parties themselves that all the parties that exist now that's right can stay and and submit themselves for election absolutely as time goes on you worked with the gine bank your work with the gine bank of course earns you a lot of accolades Global Acclaim but it did also draw some uh criticism regarding the microcredit projects and the kind of long-term effects of uh perpetuating debt Cycles did you agree with that criticism no I don't because they make up all

cook up all the stories to give where they come from then why were they saying it say that they don't like something uh they didn't think about somebody did it so this is one and also they bring the element that you charge interest interest is a word it's not uh uh supported by the religion so I said whatever the religion said about interest that's exploitation interest not the interest that we are charging to provide the service so that's what we are so this is one on the religious side other want a political that he's becoming

too popular so we have to condemn this it's just good so I've been harassed by the previous government I was about to sent in jail like there are more than 200 cases court cases against me during the past regime and so on so this is another story I was saying that uh United States has a micro credit program called gram in America it works in 35 cities in the United States been working for how many 10 15 years with perfect record so it's very transparent and so on forget about what happens to Bangladesh you're looking

for micro credit what don't you just look the micro that it exist in a most systematized transparent system in the United States and these are the women who start with the loan under $100,000 and pay back every penny with interest and never default at any loan their repayment rate is near 99% and above in spread in all cities or 35 cities around this uh United States all 100% women and most of the migrants women and also the uh black communities uh uh where economic situation is very poor so they are the one who are taken

this money and it's wors so if anybody wants to say if microc credit Works find out whether microc crit Works in a transparent system you say ah Bangladesh is a kind of country you have Corruptions and so on so it may they may dup you to do something else and so on you make make up lots of stories about it but here it's all transparent everything is there see whether the system works or not whether people like it or not so we're here at a time of great Global uncertainty particularly in the climate arena is

things are getting worse the wild extremes are getting worse and and countries like yours are in the teeth of it but also in the sense of rivalries between nations and just Global Security on the whole what's your sense of how that's playing out generally around the world and also Bangladesh's role well I'm not the politicians I'm not kind of making such observations studies and so on so I will not make any comment on that uh so far as Bangladesh is concerned we are all friends uh we want they want to be helpful we want their

help so we work together every country we have no problem finally as you look back over your life do you think you ever thought you'd be anything close to the position you're now in leading the nation well it's a very funny thing because people always keep saying that you'll be running the country yeah so they I are always saying no no no not to me you so I was invited to form the government back uh now several years back uh when there's a transitional government to be formed I was approached uh Army came to tell

that you take over now I said no not me find somebody else so they stayed on the whole night to try to pursu it so I said no and I stayed with no I didn't take it so ever since that every time something happens ah he is the one who needs who who has to be the head of the government so this is going on and on it's not something new for me I was in the government in the in a caretaker government in one of the earlier one uh so that was one stin that

I had very short period of time 90 days of it uh so ever since uh those occasions came and I was invited to take over and take oath right now I said no not me so I had the history of refusing it repeatedly and this time I refuse first then finally I agreed Muhammad Unice thank you for talking to us than thank you [Music]