narcissistic people are attracted to people who will give them Supply physical attractiveness status praise so you just being a nice person and praising someone could actually be what makes you attractive to them so people may think well does that mean I have to stop being me I'd say no they may be attracted to you and you may be compelled for a minute but the key is then to know how to get off the carousel before it starts going too fast before we jump into this episode I'd like to invite you to join this community to
hear more into views that will help you become happier healthier and more healed all I want you to do is click on the Subscribe button I love your support it's incredible to see all your comments and we're just getting started I can't wait to go on this journey with you thank you so much for subscribing it means the world to me the number one Health and Wellness podcast J shett J shett the one the only J shett I want to start off Dr Romany by again clarifying terms because I think we're living at a time
where there's so many terms on Tik Tok and YouTube and social media and often they transpire into how we talk to our family members friends yes what is the difference between a narcissist and narcissistic personality disorder so let's start there because this is already muddying the water so much right so narcissism is a personality style right there's lots of different personality Styles out there certainly narcissism is a more maladaptive personality style because it puts people at odds with other people it's not good for their relationship but it is a personality style and in of itself
it's not a disorder there is something called narcissistic personality disorder which is when a person is presenting with these various narcissistic patterns we've talked about the low and variable empathy the entitlement the grandiosity the arrogance the Envy the admiration and validation seeking that whole laundry list the egocentricity all the selfishness all that stuff right so all of that is happening it's chronic it's pervasive it shows up in their life and various on a whole bunch of different relationships the difference is they actually go to a therapist office who's licensed and trained to issue a diagnosis
and that therapist determines like yep I'm seeing these patterns they're consistent they're across situations and they may assign them that diagnosis the vast majority of people who have this personality style are never going to be in a practitioner's office who's going to make that determination and it gets tricky right because to call something a disorder raises a whole bunch of issues personally Jay if I ran the world I think we'd get rid of this diagnosis I think we get nothing out of it it doesn't I don't even think it helps the clients a lot of
clinicians don't issue it because it feels stigmatizing there's a whole host of reasons I think it shouldn't be but it is right now here's what you've got to remember when we look at narcissism in the world right so there's people out there who are narcissistic they might be mildly narcissistic and a little bit more emotionally immature and just sort of selfish and shallow all the way up to severe where it can be malignant and and it can be uh coercive and manipulative and all of that and there's all the stuff in between this book is
really focused on the in between right so most people aren't dealing with someone coercive that's and many are and that's a much more severe issue that is probably beyond the scope of the book but most people who are dealing with the mild narcissism they're frustrated and annoyed but they're not devastated and hurt like we see in that sort of middle level of narcissism right so the difference is literally that sort of mechanical point they weren't seen by someone and I don't know that any listen I'll be honest with you if I met someone at a
dinner party and they start telling me their life I might even think in my head I've got a hypothesis clinically what's happening in no Universe we occupy would I ever say to that person even if I talked to them for two hours I think you have generalized anxiety disorder I think you have bipolar too I just wouldn't say it right it's not the setting it's not the situation I might strongly suggest say hey you should talk to someone right so what get where it gets interesting is the mistake a lot of people make is number
one they assume that if a person has narcissistic personality disorder that their narcissism is more severe not necessarily there are people out there with NPD narcissistic personality disorder whose narcissism actually is not as severe as people who were never diagnosed because they never went into that situation so you see what I'm saying so there's people out there who are malignant narcissistic people they're never seen by anyone we can speculate we could spitball we' say yeah it's probably the case but that person with NPD May simply seen a clinician the other piece though here too is
that what it's doing is it's creating this very sort of strange space where people are saying these are the patterns I'm seeing in a partner parent whomever I think they might be narcissistic and the internet as it does is very quick to to shame that person who do you think you are how could you think this about someone and this person has probably already been really hurt really devastated by this relationship is now being shamed for sharing like I think this might be what's happening it's also creating this s really painful space so suffice it
to say I think in the public conversation about narcissism we should only call it narcissism getting into the Weeds on NPD is really getting on this sort of subtle clinical point and it just creates it it makes a lot of noise here so we're not able to have the clear conversation that these personality styles are harming the people who are in these relationships yeah it makes a lot of sense why do you think it is that all of a sudden it seems at least culturally that more people are interacting with narcissists like you'll be talking
to a friend and they'll be like oh God I'm so glad I just got out relationship with the narcissist or I'm struggling I'm healing as your book teaches you how to like I'm healing from this relationship I had I think they were narcissistic like why is it all of a sudden we're feeling this kind of awareness in culture has it always been there has it increased what what's happened it's always been there J I think as long as there were people it has been there and I always say to people open up a history book
I'd say about 75% of the people they've written about in that history book were probably quite narcissistic narcissistic people make history they and in fact honestly they often are responsible for some of the greatest Innovations we've ever known doesn't make them nice people and I'd say let them innovate just don't go on a date with them you know that's really what we're talking about here so there is an outof the-box to them there's a fantasy that they live in that they often feel compelled to create so you better believe that they've always been there I
don't know that we would have had the leaps and balance we've had in some ways without that right so that said it's always been there but we never had a name for it remember psychology is a field in its infancy what's it been around 1507 25 years so it's it's evolving and so this concept of talking about someone's personality in this way maybe since the late 1800s we've even been having that conversation people have been doing narcissistic stuff to Partners children family members since time immemorial we just didn't have a name for it I think
at some level because until recently I think almost all cultures were probably much more author itarian patriarchally patriarchally organized I think we're seeing sort of bigger conversations around that so I think there was almost a strange sort of universal radical acceptance that some people are just really jerky and let's just follow what they're saying and and so we didn't we just didn't even think of it that way but we see history books of Kings who were ogres and Invaders who were horrific and these were not nice people they were the narcissists of their time now
to your other question why are we talking about it like even 10 years ago a person wouldn't have said my partner my boy you heard it that's what I mean but they would have said first of all we didn't have the platforms but if they did talk about they're such a jerk why do they keep doing this to me I can't figure this out everyone has always been having the conversations we didn't we're using different languaging now and if anything we now have a construct we and and we Now understand this hangs together the point
of this book was really to say there are people with these personalities they're out there the way they show up in relationships is pretty consistently the same and instead of blaming yourself and wondering what you could do it's not you yeah it's really them and they're having their process and their journey and probably not going to get the help they need to defend it against it but rolling up and turning your life into a human sacrifice to please or win over or prove something to an unwinable over person I have watched people waste lifetimes doing
this you know and it's even particularly compelling if it's her parent but even if it's a long-term intimate relationship with some especially if they got into the relationship young so this has always been a thing yeah no that's that's that makes a lot of sense and I appreciate how our vocabulary evolves with time and as that expands and extends it allows us to Better Label and understand things and I know that this book is primarily about the relationship a narcissistic relationship and then the healing Journey but before we dive into that I wanted to ask
you a question how do you stop attracting a narcissist like is there a way to not attract a narcissist Dre I wish I could say yes and here's where I want to actually give my props to everyone's listening out there who has attracted a narcissist you know why you attracted a narcissist because you're attractive and what I mean by attractive is you may be physically beautiful it may be your physique it may be your something you know it may be your social status it may be that you could do something for them what's attractive to
them may not be attractive to the rest of us you're attractive to them because you're attractive because you may have power of some kind in the world when I say power I don't mean like you're a leader I mean you're self-possessed many people who get into these relationships we have this mistaken assumption that the people who get into these relationships are Shrinking Violets who have low self-esteem absolutely not I I've got to tell you some of the people i' seen get into these relationships I'm like woo I should have your self-esteem they there there they're
strong and they're they know who they are and they're saying this thing dismantled me Brick by Brick I was really well put together when I met this person right so this isn't about a person who doesn't have self-esteem it can be but it's definitely not an absolute narcissistic people are attracted to people who will give them Supply what is supply for every narcissistic person might be a little different but it's usually physical attractiveness status praise so you just being a nice person and praising someone could actually be what makes you attractive to them so people
may think well does that mean I have to stop being me I'd say no they may be attracted to you and you may be compelled for a minute but the key is then to know how to get off the carousel before it starts going too fast good answer good answer I'm like it it makes a lot of sense and again it's not you it's not you it comes back to that which I like to walk me through the consistent you talk about narcissism being consistent walk me through the consistent pattern of a narcissistic relationship so
that anyone who's listening can because I think like you're saying a lot of us sometimes feel scared to admit that we might even be with a narcissist because it's it's scary to accept that and admit that and have that realization because we think it's something to do with us we think we've wasted time there can be a sunk cost bias of I thought I had a future with this person so walk me through the pattern of a narcissistic relationship let's just talk briefly it helps us understand the pattern they have traits things like I talked
about the entitlement the lack of empathy the grandiosity the arrogance the selfishness I want you to think of a narcissistic person as a volcano and that volcano has got this bubbling lava and the lava for the narcissistic person is shame and insecurity so they want to be able to plug the top of that volcano right and that plug is all this stuff the entitlement the grandiosity I'm perfect I'm great it's this so it it keeps all that stuff under WS that's not a conscious process right so but every so often in life something's going to
push that lid off to the side which might be feedback a criticism somebody ends a relationship with them whatever it is something their day doesn't go the way they want they get stuck in traffic and they're late to something they don't get the table they want in a restaurant whatever it may be that nudges that man hole cover over and the lava starts spilling out and that lava is their rage and their anger because their shame has been shown all of this is unconscious so all these patterns in the relationship the way they show up
in the narcissistic person is manipulation invalidation of the other person minimization of what another person is going through uh gaslighting rage and reactivity uh future faking which means promises are made and broken just to keep a person sort of on the hook um there will be uh blame shifting they won't take responsibility they'll always blame the other person which is why people in these relationships always tend to blame themselves there's a lot of Deceit betrayal lying infidelity there is neglect over time they just give less and less and less to the relationship and the person
in the relationship is trying to make do on the tiniest tiniest bits of being noticed that's how they show up in the relationship everything in the relationship is about them getting Supply and validation they have absolutely no interest in the needs wants and honestly subjective reality of the other person in the relationship over time the other person gets almost is considered an inconvenience if you want something you're an inconvenience much like this cup Cup's convenient when I want to drink from it but the cup all of a sudden said hey can you take me to
CVS on the way home like what cup you're a cup don't tell me that so they view Us in that sort of objectified lens all of these dynamics mean that over time in order for the relationship ship to work the other person has to entirely sacrifice themselves and buy into the reality system of the narcissistic person but that doesn't all happen overnight oftentimes at least in an adult narcissistic relationship whether it's an intimate relationship or friendship that early phase is very idealized and seductive it's called love bombing but it's really this phase where they're winning
not only winning you over with gestures and tactics but with Attunement and atten or seeming Attunement and attention they pay pay intense attention to you but you realize afterwards is some of that intense attention was them learning things about you that were going to be turned around and used against you down the road that's often a point of Devastation for a person who says I was vulnerable with this person I told them things that i' never told anyone before and then six months in I was being shamed and humiliated and and you know it was
being used to sort of destabilize me there is a point where that love bombing phase then starts heading into a place where there's 10 good things one bad thing oh one bad thing everyone has a bad day nine Bad Thing nine good things one bad thing over time though that ratio pretty much comes to like maybe one to one so now you're having as much difficult challenging stuff and then these little sprinklings of good things happening that's the origin of the trauma bond that back and forth good bad hot cold I'm here I'm not here
is where people will often find themselves falling into a cycle of justifying blaming themselves because it was so great it was great for two or three months so how did it not become great maybe I'm doing something so the person will literally it's almost like you know when you open a bag you know you're trying to find something in a bag and you take everything out of the bag chaotically and it's all in the airport on the ground and it was that one little like your headphones that's what people in narcissistic relationships do they open
the bag that is themselves and pull everything out trying to figure out what is wrong with me why did go from baby where can I take you to dinner I'll take you anywhere to what like please stop interrupting me and you're you're thinking what just happened and so basically once the narcissistic person almost feels kind of confident they've got your supply whether it's a promise maybe you live with them maybe you've really committed into a long-term relationship you said I love you or whatever that they've got you where they want you then there're sort of
almost narcissistic folks are also very novelty seeking they kind of get bored easily so you being around from time to time they'll be into you but then from other times they won't they do like they do like the idea that someone's a constant source of supply and then over time there can be a real process of discard they just really it can feel like they just don't care at all anymore basically what they do is they no longer fulfill the roles and responsibilities of what it means to be in a close relationship which is empathy
compassion kindness Attunement self-awareness these are the respons responsibilities we have in a human relationship and they do not fulfill them I even hate putting them as responsibilities I think that they come automatically for healthy person and then if you do decide to leave or even if they decide to leave you start to enter potentially a cat and- Mouse game of hoovering where they'll pull you back see how you're doing sometimes they'll even figure out oh they're happy now let me go see if I can SP spin that around a little bit wow wow I mean
those patterns sound so painful and they found they sound so strenuous and stressful and you know heartbreaking in so many ways why what are the excuses that people keep telling themselves and what justifications stop us from healing I mean it go even more foundationally on that why do we justify right when you think about one of the most Primal human needs needs it's attachment we need other people we are not meant to be solo acts human beings are tribal we we evolved in social groups our brains didn't change that much we still need our people
we need love we do we need connection and people say what about the narcissist I said they need it more than anyone they want all the Supply right so we need to be together but that especially in a child that need for attachment is everything and if a child has an unattuned parent or even an abusive parent the child doesn't have the option to say I think I'm going to split up with them and see what I'm going to go on parent hinge and see if I can find someone new right doesn't work like that
the child has to hold this parent in esteem which means the child then needs to devalue themselves what am I doing wrong how could I be more and the child really learns how to be everything that parent wants and needs to the detriment of their own needs right this is our back story all exactly so now let's just jump that to adulthood right so the child comes up with all kinds of fantasies but in adulthood they may be things like everyone has a bad day relationships are tough I'm no picnic myself they've been working really
hard we did have a good weekend they did tell me I love you I mean I could go on for the next two hours about all the justifications I've heard right so the justifications are not not only proliferate they come easily and Jay they're reinforced by the world right because the world will say oh relationships are tough maybe they're just having a bad day right so now what you're saying is completely in line with sort of what the prevailing wisdom would be and you do that enough every time these really invalidating destabilizing things that cut
to the core of your identity happen the people who tend to get more stuck in these relationships quite frankly are the more empathic people while narcissistic people are attracted to people who are whatever Supply attractive they are to them the people who get stuck are the people who are more vulnerable to trauma bonding and who have more empathy and as a results are more likely to make those excuses and justifications right they're going to be more open to the idea that there's there's always different ways to there's another point of view that's what empathic people
do and that's how it happens but in a trauma bonded relationship and it's also about cognitive dissonance right that we don't like we don't like the tension of inconsistency within ourselves so we're always trying to make it fit and how do we relieve that tension and make it fit we justify then we can maintain the status quo and human beings are also homeostatic creatures we like the stat I want to keep living here I want to keep having this routine I don't want to find a new place to put my toothbrush I don't want to
wake up in a new place even if you kind of might want to over time many survivors will say I don't even care if I wake up in you know in a random place as long as I'm not waking up here but how much terribleness had to happen to the person in that period of time and so it's a person is just getting sort of slowly distanced from their true nature the longer a person is in a narcissistic relationship the more they literally have to abandon themselves that's what I wanted to touch on actually where
you got to is you know what is the impact of narcissistic abuse like how because I think often we also think like oh yeah well you should know that you know he was a waste of time or well look what look what she did to you like you should should be aware like you know it's it's almost like we assume that it should logically make sense to someone that they should be happy that they're now away from this person but often with people who've been with narcissistic people especially empathetic people they're still saying well I
hope they're okay I hope that person's okay like I know they're struggling what is the impact of someone who's experience narcissistic abuse on a deep scientific psychological level like what what is actually going on for them so what we're seeing pretty consistently across and now I can say now thousands of people we've looked at who have experienced these relationships is consistently we see a problematic level of rumination regret anxiety sadness self- blame self-doubt a um a sense of hypervigilance a a social anxiety that comes from it and I want to put a pin in that
hypervigilant piece because I want to come back to that in a moment an interesting sort of mild dissociation where a person has become dissociated from their needs their wants and their true nature because that has been so consistently invalidated in this relationship you see problems with sleep you see you see the neurovative stuff we see in depression like the changes in appetite you see problems with concentration what's interesting though about survivors of narcissistic abuse is that some of them may actually develop clinical depression but most don't and what I'll see is these are folks when
they are surrounded by healthy supports therapists friends they're animated they're Lely they don't seem like a person who's under that heavy weight of depression right so it is really the when the relationship is present it's taking its toll and it is why so many survivors of narcissistic abuse are able to roll up and be terrific parents despite what's happening you see what I'm saying because it's not a tra it's not a mental illness it's a normative reaction to this but even with that hypervigilance there's a lot of of talk about how nice survivors of narcissistic
abuse are we recently did an Instagram live about this and it was just me sort of yammering on about something I'd heard that day I was really struck by the strength it had in our community because we talk about empathy empathy empathy and survivors but one thing I'm really seeing in my in I'm again so many clients now at this point and other people telling their stories is that the empathy is almost functioning as a bit of a trauma response like let me be as kind as possible let me be as good as possible POS
and so it gets very confusing for you like am I empathic am I trying to survive and is my empathy literally like this this trauma is a survival response to try to like it's almost like that Fawn response we talk about that Fawn trauma response where I am going to be what this this harmful person needs me to be so I can win them over and I will be okay right so and then after that though there's shame why was I so nice to this person they were terrible to me like what's wrong with with
me and something I really try to focus on with survivors is to say this empathic responsive compassionate part of you is beautiful we've got to heal you and not lose that does that make sense so this isn't an amputation this is very much about we've got to keep this here pull the shame off of it but allow you to become more Discerning wow and that's the trick in doing this work with clients and for an individual who's healing themselves yeah wow I mean that analogy you just gave of it's not an amputation that's really interesting
because I think we would think that when something's that toxic and abusive you just want to cut it out get rid of it move it away but but that's not what you're saying no and and in fact you know this is one of the things I really take umage and I'm frustrated with Tik Tock and and places where people are giving Quicky advices it's almost as though if you have empathy for the narcissistic person you're foolish and absolutely not they are in their fashion there's there's something not quite right there and they're not even anywhere
close to addressing it my goal for folks is you want to have empathy for them and Ian if you don't want to I get that too for what you've been through but if that empathy for you them is something you want to maintain yes I still need you to disengage can you disengage from someone and still empathize with them I believe absolutely yes wow yeah and that's and that's a hard balance for the people in your life that love you to see that because it can be really really challenging to see someone you love feel
empathy to someone who's hurt them really bad correct and it's also even for yourself and this is where it can bring up complicated emotions like pity and guilt right and I try and again the the work of healing is that pity is that these mechanisms inside of you that attend and attune and care about other human beings are still working which we want those to always remain online but that you ensuring that you pull yourself back from a harmful situation the world needs you we need your whole you not the version that you had to
create to remain in this toxic relationship and that Balancing Act of retaining empathy when you've been so hurt by someone that's some of the hardest work of healing I see people do it every day and it's really quite beautiful but a lot of them think have I become a bad person because I'm I'm so angry at this person and in fact a big point bring up in the book and I'm going to sort of Jump Ahead here is I actually don't know that forgiveness always has a place in these relationships and this is a complicated
conversation a lot of people say forgiveness is all good and I'm like slow the no no stop the presses it's absolutely not and there's a whole body of scientific research that suggests that repeatedly forgiving a repeat perpetrator actually harms the forgiver there's no win in that and so in what way in it it lowers their well-being it can result in negative mood symptoms I mean of course you keep do you keep doing this cuz I think forgiveness is is a very personal decision but it's also not a necessary one to heal and I think that
the message a lot of people get is well if you're gon to if you don't forgive them you're never going to heal the hell you're not and I'm going to be very Frank with you Jay there's some narcissistic people who harmed me immeasurably I don't forgive them and I heal just fine it comes back to the you can't just say the cliches to people and hope they'll move on and be okay with it and it can be really hard for that individual to again either rise or lower themselves down to either of those like I
know someone who's been through something recently who's dealing with it with empathy and I know for them their friends and family are like how can you be empathetic to this person and so they're dealing with it that way or you'd have the opposite in your case where you're saying I actually don't want to be empathetic towards them I don't want to forgive them and your family is saying well you should be but I do I here's where it gets interesting I empathize with them yes don't forgive them right okay so you encourage maintain those two
states simultaneously and I think that again one of the big exercises in the book and I think it might be one of the most important ones is something I do have been doing with clients for a long time which is the multiple truths exercise because it's so easy to say write all the terrible stuff and I do tell people to record all the terrible stuff but I said like let's just be I want you to write everything you feel for this person and a person might write this is my mother I hate her she had
a tough backstory she was terrible to us children she lives alone I feel sorry for her I wish she would change I know she won't change this is literally the stream of Consciousness for a Survivor you look at that and right there it's manifest why survivors are so confused but I absolutely believe and not everyone does some people say I have no empathy for this person but I think it's quite possible and this is where everyone say no that's not possible if you empathize with them you'd forgive them I say I understand why they are
the way they are I even kind of understand why why they did what they did what they did was unforgivable and so I do I wish them no ill will in fact if good things happen to them so be it if bad things happen to them so be it so there's a mild indifference to it but it wouldn't be a loss I mean I don't think again there's so many forms of empathy and empathy is its own complicated conversation but I don't think that the not forgiving is a lack of empathy because forgiveness really reflects
the harm it's done to us and people say no no no it's a gift for you too M yeah and I'm not giving them this gift because I know they would do it again if I let this person back in they would do it again I love that distinction between empathy and forgiveness really important to understand another word that a whole chapter is dedicated to radical acceptance Define that for us so that we can understand how that's used because again even looking at the difference between empathy and forgiveness it's so interesting to me just how
subtle and specific healing looks like as opposed to this almost abstract Journey that's often painted of healing being like you move from this stage to here where it's you know right yeah so so radical acceptance is it's it's I have to say there's one there's two probably two essential ingredients to Healing you're going to go through radical acceptance you're going to go through grief and then it's sort of people are going to go on different paths but radical acceptance is the absolute acceptance that these patterns are not this person's behavior is not going to change
at least not significantly enough to make this into healthy relationship that this Behavior affected you and as long as you're in the purview of this Behavior as long as I keep doing this to you it will keep hurting you because some people have said to me they say I radically accepted they're not going to change how come when they say these things to me it still bothers me I'm like because it's hurting you it's still hurtful just because you understand why it's coming out of them you you didn't just become a piece of concrete like
you still have a soul and a heart and a psyche that can be hurt so some people I think thought radical acceptance was like a magic pill that if I take this the narcissistic person will never bother me again and so all of that partic but the key element of it is this is not going to change and all decisions from that point forward have to be made on that basis by definition narcissism is like I said a maladaptive personality style but it's also a rigid personality style the less healthy the personality the less uh
flexible that it is so very healthy people have extraordinarily flexible personality so the core of mental health is flexibility it's almost like physical health right a person who's physically healthy has a lot of flexibility in their muscles and Joints a mentally healthy person has a lot of flexibility in their psyche how do we Define flexibility in our psyche I would say it's it's an adaptability it is a self-awareness and awareness of others it's the ability to engage in novel problem solving and not get stuck on a singular solution it's the capacity to be able to
self-regulate and to self sooth those are some of the things I'd file into that sort of that flexibility I'm not just saying it's like sure I'll go anywhere you want I'm not saying it's the it's the I'm game for anything but when things when there's disappointment there's the capacity to cope with it it's a lot of coping a lot of resilience is in that flexibility piece right that is the core of Health I have worked with people who have survived severe trauma it's I and but the the ones who really are standing in a different
it's that flexibility right and you think about it if a tree is flexible it'll Bend With the Wind if it's not it's going to snap if the wind is too hard that would really be the best sort of an analogy so narcissism is this sort of maladaptive rigid style there's very little self-reflective capacity for the narcissistic person very little self-awareness for the narcissistic person and very little awareness of the people around them there is little motivation to change most grandiose narcissists subject objectively think of themselves as great people if you ask them they'll say I'm
a great guy like I'll help anyone I'll do anything for anyone I'm I'm just a cool person they believe it having just cheated on their girlfriend two nights before that they're able to maintain what almost feels like a delusional self schema those things are not amenable to change and and again the nice thing about being an old lady is you I've been doing this so long that I've seen cases 15 20 years and when I tell you that there's been some interesting things they've learned abouts in some cases they had co-occurring conditions addiction is a
great example the addiction is managed like they've been sober for many years but that core personality they are definitely not fit for an intimate relationship at least not one where someone's not going to get hurt so that radical acceptance of the all of it that moment is the penny drop moment because now people see the path forward very different this is no longer once the kids grow up it's going to get easier this is no no longer when he gets the promotion things are going to get better this is no longer when the grandkids come
my parents is going to calm down this is this is it and I've sat with many clients and said I'm going to put something to you and I'm going to say if I were to tell you this is it this is never going to change how would that affect the decisions you make most clients will say can I tell you next week because that's a lot to take in but the challenge with radical acceptance Jay is that I wish I could say it's h and the light comes in the window you know couple things is
that radical acceptance doesn't mean you're signing off on this it doesn't mean you're giving into it doesn't mean you're agreeing with it it's not that it is you're seeing it absolutely and painfully clearly you know what happens after you painfully and radically see something the grief comes over you like a tsunami because this is your mom the mom you always thought one day we're going to have the moment or your dad where you're like one day they're going to get me or the part partner we're like we are going to grow old together and it's
going to be okay you're giving up a narrative you're giving up a hope you're giving up a life story you're giving up things you held on to since you were a child that's Devastation and I tell folks now we're going to hold on tight because grief is the most human of experiences there's it's one of other than life other than being born and dying I don't know of any other Universal Human Experience other than grief all human beings lose right we lose something or someone and we all have a very similar experience internally we we
we grief and that's why we have rituals right but ultimately we go through a period of grief and I think in this Modern Age we think we're better than grief we think we can Soldier through oh I can make my grief go like this nobody gets to make their grief go quicker right it grief is grief and that grief actually leads People Jay to say okay this feels terrible maybe I should go back back into the relationship maybe I made a mistake maybe I'm not seeing this clearly maybe I'm the problem maybe I'm the narcissist
and so the holding on during the grief understanding what's happening within you that the loss isn't just I'm not talking to my partner anymore or I'm distanced from my mother or I'm getting a divorce but the grief is how much of yourself you lost in this relationship when people have to dive into that some they say I'm kind of glad they're gone but oh what what just happened to me yeah yeah it's the grief of the life you once had the thought you going to have you thought you could have the grief of the loss
of the person that you lost while you dissolved into this relationship and and I've seen that from the people I know not people I would say these are people that I know in my life but I've seen just that dissolving of one's identity like completely clueless even if they've disengaged to I don't know who I am anymore and and I don't know what to do anymore and I don't know whether I was confident or whether I was bubbly or whether I was extrovert or introvert like I just don't know yep and what's the first step
when you're feeling I don't know what where do you where's where's the starting point I tell folks we're taking you back to basics and it's little things like I'll say three times a day set a little timer if you want I want you to just when that little notification comes up want you to stop and say how do I feel right now am I cold am I hot am I hungry am I thirsty like physiological functions figure out where you want your thermostat and move it and see like oh I I I'm feeling 60 68
this is nice people don't even know that I'll say what do you want on your pizza you'd be amazed how many people are flumix by that question they say well he always wanted what do you want on your pizza and they'll say and they'll catch themselves this isn't meant to be silly this is how even these these sort of loow hanging questions become a place where a person is now being able to recreate a subjective Focus they were told for years you can't be hungry you just ate you can't be cold I'm warm you're not
tired you got plenty of sleep that's what they were told so when that's done to you not just once but hundreds if not thousands of times just that initial process and part of what I write about in the book is just you keep reorienting to yourself and you ask yourself a few times a day like what's the I'm actually feeling a little bit cold and that's okay even if everyone else has a bathing suit on it's okay wow it's just bringing that person back into their body into their body because that's our most physical tangible
way of knowing how we feel and because we've gone so far away from understanding how we feel that's going to be the easiest way same with what do you want in your pizza it sounds silly but it's not it's well let's get these basic decisions right let's get these really amateur decisions right rather than thinking who am I what is the goal of my life like but you work up to that and when you ask people who am I like I don't know I'll say what what do you stand for tell me something that's important
to you and they will really say no I've never thought in these levels I mean your focus for so many people's meaning and purpose right to me that's when we're getting into the latter stages of really this you know this individuation and this autonomy of what is Meaningful to you what is purposeful I remember a client once saying to me we're talking about meaning of purpose and she said are you kidding me what's meaningful and purposeful she said I just want to get to a day where I don't think about them and I said great
then that's that's where it is right now and over time we're going to build on that but that can feel very Out Of Reach for people like in fact in my healing program this month it's it's going to be meaning and purpose month and even I as I construct that curriculum I'm realizing like I want I a lot of the usual conversation about meaning and purpose I'm almost having to have the conversation point you know point two of what it means when you're going through this and someone who's a survivor of narcissistic abuse but then
it's also the willingness to turn to trusted others I'm going to give you a silly example of something that happened today I had a very problematic call today right with someone and I had to put the call on speaker because someone was helping me with something in the house and I had to be I she was doing her work quietly but it wasn't a confidential call it was it was a business thing and the call went terribly the person was very disrespectful very dismissive and I've been through narcissistic abuse in many ways and shapes and
forms in my life so my first tendency was am I being too sensitive am I being too demanding am I being ridiculous that's what I was thinking and at one point the lady who was help helping me out she kind of looked at me rolled her eyes I rolled my eyes and she looked back at me and she said yeah and I got off the phone and the person who was helping with something else she had nothing to do with this call and I closed my eyes and the person said the person in the room
with me said yeesh that was absolutely ridiculous and I looked at her and I said say more and she said I can't believe how dismissive that person was she didn't even do the basic and Jay I felt whole because my inner experience which I still doubt after all these years and I've come a long way but my inner experience this person outside of me who I know cares about me said it wasn't okay how she talked to you and each time that happens we have a micro adjustment of that was on point I I read
that situation correctly and then I was emboldened to make a stronger decision and decide not to go into to do what this person was asking me to do was like a speaking thing and I'm like no I don't want to do that but that other person's presence yeah having that safe space and this is so a big part of the healing then becomes building up safe validating anti-gas lights as I call them in your life people who see you and say that wasn't okay or are you okay or that was disrespectful they did not speak
nicely to you whatever it is most survivors are so used to being spoken to badly they're like well business as usual but to have that this is why people go into therapy and so then I was able to take the much Bolder leap of no I'm actually going to end up going to the other meeting but thanks I don't know that I would have had that kind of Courage this is what healing is you build up those people even if it's one or two people giving yourself permission to to put I call it the 9010
inversion most of us put 90% of ourselves into our most toxic relationships and 10% into the giving reciprocal loving ones that run easily I said flip the math I want 90% into those good relationships and phone it into the toxic ones yeah that's so true and and it's it's interesting because I think that kind of answers the next question I was going to ask but this idea of I think when someone's going through that healing Journey they're almost oscillating between like well to I know myself again oh I don't know who I am anymore I
feel like I know what I want on pizza oh my gosh I have no idea you know so I feel like they go through this what I I think that partly answers that you need these people in your life who are constantly reminding you and as you said anti-gas lighting you what else can someone do when they're kind of oscillating between that I think I'm making progress I'm not sure anymore I think I'm making progress I'm lost again how do you what do you find in that period embrace the oscillation right because it is it's
calibration right you're you're sort of it's like a child wobbly on their feet when they're learning to walk you're you're learning this again and so that wobbliness is you it's the it's their internalized voice and your individuated self kind of having a little bit of an argument and sort of view that indiv that part of you that's trying to individuate like say you got this and that's an old voice and that old we can just sort of say you know you're you're actually not welcome here anymore like you could just step out thank you and
the but it's the individuated voice and the internalized the narcissistic internalized or the gaslighted internalized voice and they're they're going they're still fighting it out and we feel as though am I aren't I just like today anyone watching that call I mean but said this was not okay and the the person it was almost like the emperor not wearing any clothes right that this person was saying this Emperor is naked go away Romany go away and so I think that that initially we need those voices a lot more and there'll still be times when we
we will T because I think there's certain trigger situations that kind of remain pretty consistent for survivors for a long long time we do hold it internally and we were told too Jay many survivors are told they're up if they want to achieve a goal do you really think you're going to pull that off like I think you're reaching a little too high so they were minimized and trivialized for wanting to do something that they still hear that inner voice of don't be ridiculous you're never going to be able to do that and they make
that voice their own instead of trying to learn like that kind of that was an unwanted visitor so let's see if you can sort of treat it that way and we can even think about if you look at trauma Theory we talk about the protector persecutor kind of a model that the persecuting voice in a strange way is doing this really messed up way of keeping you safe because it's telling you like in essence it it's the that persecuting voice is that voice is telling you you're going to fail so you don't try and when
you were in the narcissistic relationship and you failed they would humiliate and shame you right or tell you it was going to happen but if you can say that okay I see what you're trying to do persecuting Bo I'll be fine if this doesn't go well because it'll be on my terms and if you really have done radical acceptance even when the narcissistic person rolls their eyes and says oh big surprise you have to keep coming back to this is a them thing this is not a me thing not saying it doesn't hurt this is
a carousel that really takes a toll on people but it can be done but that oscillation starts to become a little less oscillate the more people have these validating voices people build up what we call efficacy the the idea that they're able to do something right so the first time we able we're able to do something successfully from make a cake or change the oil in our car uh use a drill and put something in the wall the that what it does to the psyche is remarkable so I tell survivors keep keep trying new things
because the more efficacy you build that also helps Foster individuation so I'm like grab the drill if you put a few holes in the wall but the picture goes up you're going to feel really good about the picture going up try to make the difficult sule you may burn a few but when it's made great I did try to do this with bread I still have not successfully raised a loaf of bread so it's my last neurotic wound but I think that when we find some people learn and other people do all kinds of interesting
things I see like some folks I've worked with learned languages and they learned how to play a musical instrument and but they'll say this feels so good because back in the day I would have been made fun of for this those who are able to get out will say it's so interesting to do this and that confidence starts jumping into other areas of their life yeah I mean it's really a rehabilitation of right self identity self-worth self-confidence self acceptance you're almost teaching yourself to do things again in order to feel whole right absolutely but you
know what you it's interesting see use rebuild for a lot of people it's a build because if this happened to them in childhood their individuated identity never got to form at all wow so this is a build yeah it's a build it's from scratch Dr Romy this is you know so informative I I'm thinking of so many people right now who I know are going to benefit from our conversation today because it's almost like I feel like the more and more I'm speaking to people the more and more I hear about people de with this
in their lives but I want to ask you one last question and it's this idea of can going back to that empathy point that forgiveness point for the person who's healing from the narcissistic person for them can the narcissistic person ever heal so it's a listen I I do believe in human potentiality I'm I'm probably never going to bet on the psychopathic or narcissistic horse in the race but might might they at least come in the top five maybe and what I mean by that is part of this is an understanding the origins of narcissism
right some narcissistic folks their personality development was very much shaped by adversity trauma neglect loss chaos attachment moons right that subgroup if they are willing humbly to engage into the work of growth they do excellent trauma informed worth work with a with a therapist and then get beyond the trauma informed work and are able to reflect on how they they're able to create that schema of how they're they affect others right to pull it's almost like you're pulling away um the you're pulling open Gates and say there's people out there see this thing you're doing
they're being affected and it it's really opening the schema out of how they're desperately trying to protect themselves to how other people are getting hurt and I have it's interesting I I work with a narcissistic client once for many many years and I I I sort of cut back my practice and I've had one or two of them Reach back like oh can I work with you I'm like you know I've really kind of shut up shot but they you know what they said though one one in particular said I am I'm screaming at my
girlfriend and I know it's not okay now he's still screaming at her not so good but he does know he's like I know it's not okay and she may leave me and I probably deserve it I and he's like you taught me that wow he's still screaming on that part but humility is such a big part of this right and and the I honestly think the antidote to narcissism is humility and humility means we're not perfect we have flaws and it and we are and it's not all a fantasy and that we're and honestly the
hardest thing for a narcissistic person to accept is that they're ordinary we you're ordinary I'm ordinary everyone in this room is ordinary and we're simultaneously special but we're just people right and so if that for them not to be the most special person means removing the camp off the volcano which is terrifying for them in if in a way they're almost terrified by their own rage you need one very skilled therapist to guide someone through that Journey you know and so and they have to keep showing up and for about almost 60 to 70% of
narcissistic folks drop out of therapy prematurely and it usually happens when the rubber meets the road and the work starts getting really vulnerable that's when I've lost clients and so we have to go very very gently into that forest with them and but unfortunately if we go too gently and we never get there then we're sort of doing a lot of Naval gazing so it's just finding that kind of balance and and and you know they can do a lot of spiritual bypassing that kind of stuff like you you can't just you can't aphorism your
way through this you're G to have to do this painful work face up to that vulnerability that's I I've seen some narcissistic people make a little bit of progress but the way I put it is this There's Hope for them to make some progress but the harm they've usually done to another person usually it's not super it's not really that fixable and so many people will say and a fear of a lot of people in narcissistic relationships is what if they change for the next person they're not going to change for the next person right
what if they what if it all changes overnight this is not an overnight this is years and years years and years of committed work to this like I said I've seen micro changes and not enough to have probably consistently affected other people's relationships and they still personality is like a rubber band we can pull it out so all of a sudden Romany the introvert could become Romney the extrovert for one night only and then when we get home the rubber band will go back to its side the narcissistic person on a good day with a
good therapist might get stretched out a little bit seem a little bit more tuned aware do some empathic adjacent things but as soon as the first time stress comes into the picture rubber band goes back to its original size yeah that's what I was going to ask you as as the last question that came from that was what would you say to someone who says I'll wait for them to change you then you're waiting for a bus that's never going to come you're waiting for a submarine to show up at a bus stop basically and
and in the process it's not even just as that may not come you will lose yourself in the process and to me that sort of Soul death that sort of loss of self is it's it's just not okay and and listen you and I both know this cultur we both come from a culture where remaining in a marriage no matter what the conditions are is very much a sort of a symptom of the culture and this is where I've probably seen it most pointedly of people who really some folks would find a way whether through
their spirituality or other relationships with their children or others in their Community to sort of create a meaningful space outside of that problem atic relationship but others it was like watching a fruit die on the vine and it's to me one of the most horrific things to witness is the potential of a human being being lost to this to this kind of invalidation and I shudder to think how much potential creative potential um knowledge wisdom that people have held back because it invalidated this book is a love story to every Survivor and saying to them
please bring we need you we we need all of your gifts in this world because you have so many listen the fact that you endured this relationship is already a gift but so all the stuff you kept behind the gate open those Gates so we can see all this beautiful stuff that you could bring into the world Dr Romany thank you so much the book is called it's not you identifying and healing from narcissistic people it's available right now go and grab your copy today we have just touched on the tip of the iceberg of
the insights and the knowledge that's within this book please go grab your copy and if you don't already follow Dr Rony on Instagram and YouTube make sure you go and subscribe and follow and I want to see what resonates with you from this conversation so tag both of us I'd love to see if you've been affected by any of this if you know a friend or family members benefiting from the book I'd love to see your takeaways and Dr Ramy thank you so much again for this very thoughtful very very insightful conversation and I love
your step-by-step approach and also the ability to Define and clarify things so well for us so I always feel better prepared to talk to people even who may mention it to me friends family members whatever may happen and kind of guide them in the right direction towards a therapist or the support that they need so thank you so much thank you Jay thank you yeah thank you if you love this episode you'll enjoy my interview with Dr Julie Smith on unblocking negative emotions and how to embrace difficult feelings you've just got to be motivated every
day and if you're not then what are you doing and and actually humans don't work that way motivation you have to treat it like any other emotion some days it will be there some days it won't
