Professor Emmy Van Deurzen - “From Crisis to Freedom.”

And now perhaps, if Emmy is here—oh, good morning, Emmy! Hi, Patricia! Hi!

Very good to see you. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. And, uh, well, whilst you're here, I'd like to just say that our distinguished speakers are gifting their time and their expertise to us today in order to make this Symposium free to you who are participating, and we give huge thanks to Emmy and all the other speakers for this huge generosity of heart, spirit, and wisdom at these important times.

So thank you so much for being with us this morning. I'm going to just briefly introduce you, and then let you give your presentation. So, Professor Emmy B.

Vuren is a philosopher, counseling psychologist, and existential therapist. She's a visiting professor in Psychology and Psychotherapy at Middlesex University in the UK and the founder-director of the New School of Psychotherapy and Counseling and the Existential Academy, both in London. She's written widely in her academic field, including in the areas of trauma, stress, and anxiety.

This morning, she is going to give us a clear vision, based on scientific information and research, about how human beings thrive and overcome adversity. So I'll hand over to you now, Emmy, and we look forward very much to what you have to say to us this morning. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you, Pat! Thank you very much for that, and hello to everybody—all of my colleagues from Ukraine here. It is wonderful to see you here, and it is a great pleasure and privilege for me to speak to you today.

I’m just aiming to tell you some things that I believe may be helpful to you. So I will start sharing my screen and begin my presentation straight away. The topic of which is "From Crisis to Freedom.

" I think this image of these birds in flight—reorganizing, reconnecting, rising above the land, and traveling to new destinations—is a wonderful symbol for what we need to gather in our lives when we are oppressed by terrible situations. You have said all these things, so I don't need to belabor it; those are the courses we run at the New School. I am basically, these days, working with the Existential Academy, and as part of the Existential Academy, we run a free emotional crisis support service for Ukrainians in the UK.

So that's been going all the time; we started it immediately when the war began. I should also mention that I have just lately become the president of the Existential Movement, which has the motto of "Bringing Wisdom to the World. " The idea is that we go beyond psychotherapy into the arenas of helping ordinary people—talking to politicians, to the media—to spread the word about the knowledge we have on how to actually change the world for the better, to better prevent these situations, because it's quite insane that we should be living through these kinds of things.

Here are the 18 books I have written to date; my work has been translated into, I think, 26 languages now. I am currently working on a book called *The Art of Freedom: Guide to a Wiser Life*, which will be published with Penguin Books. This, my latest book, *Rising from Existential Crisis: Life Beyond Calamity*, is probably the most relevant book to all of you.

If you like what I'm saying today, you will find a lot of that in there. What I'm focusing on is the fact that, in the midst of world crisis and personal crisis, it is possible to move from perplexity to clarity and from despair to hope. But how do we move from such crisis to a sense of inner freedom?

I hope that I can give you some ideas about that. So that's what that book was about: how to rise from existential crisis, how to rise from the pandemics, from the political threats, from the wars, and any other miseries that are doled out to us. The idea about rising from it—like those birds in flight—is that we find a higher place in the world, almost physically, so that we can get a better overview and find ways around the problems.

So, I think that is a very important image to carry with you. To rise higher isn't always an easy thing to do. It's not always like a bird in flight; sometimes it means learning to climb and find your way across difficult obstacles.

This is a picture of the Peak District, which will be very familiar to Pat. I lived there for 18 years. I believe we need an existential turn in the world, and what I mean by that is that we desperately need a more philosophical approach to the troubles that are happening in our world.

We need a new understanding of human existence. We need to learn to approach and prevent problems in creative, dynamic, and reflective ways. We need to engage and act to create new meanings that bring us together and that give us new purpose.

This is not just a Ukrainian problem; you guys are acting out the crisis for us in a way, in the same way in which what is happening in the Middle East is acting out the human crisis in front of our eyes. We need to search for the truth of why these things happen and find a higher position in relation to them. We need something that Ukraine is certainly showing to the world, which is moral courage to affirm our values and not give in to negativity, which dominates so much of the world.

So, existential therapy. . .

Is that kind of search for a constructive dialogue about the darkest things that are happening in existence, and to get away from finding someone to blame for what is going on or carrying shame for what is going on? We do not use a system of psychopathology; we use a system of modes of being. How are these people in the world?

How can they improve their way of being in the world? So we focus on the person's life as they live it and experience it. We focus on ontodynamics rather than just on psychodynamics, although, of course, psychodynamics and interpersonal dynamics are also a part of that.

It's about making a map of all the connections that a person has, and we address the darkness in the person's life, particularly starting from their anxiety, their guilt, their despair, and their suffering. But we also bring out the paradox of life, which is often that precisely by avoiding the darkness, we cannot find solutions. However, by not being afraid of the darkness, we discover that both darkness and light have a role to play in human existence.

We try to reconnect with our passion and our compassion for each other. It is also existential therapy that has first begun to talk about not emotional breakdown but an existential crisis that happens in a person's life. Many politicians are now speaking about existential crisis, but they do not always fully understand what they are talking about.

An existential crisis is when there is a sudden upheaval in your life, when a catastrophe happens, and a war is eminently an existential crisis in everybody's life who is concerned with that. This usually affects and endangers every dimension, every layer, every aspect of your life; the connections of your ordinary existence that you took for granted and the meanings that were attached to those connections are suddenly destroyed and may be destroyed at many levels at the same time. I'll say more about that in a minute.

So the task in working with people whose meanings and layers of safety have been destroyed is obviously to mend some of those connections and to rise to a higher level, to see that there are now new connections and new meanings that can be created. It's not just about survival; it's also about making new sense and value in a world in which we have understood things we had not previously even dared to think about. We know that both man-made wars and natural disasters restrict people's freedom in intense ways and that people absolutely need support in making sense of that so that they can understand, prevent, and resolve them.

Back to this image: It is important to keep giving yourself these images that hold your troubles within them because somewhere in those hills, bad things are happening, but somewhere in those hills, you are alive. And though you live through war, you are alive, and you are capable of using all your experience, all your knowledge, and all your wisdom to stand above the destruction, to rebuild safety, to rebuild communities, and to rebuild trust in something, and to create greater strength in your life. Now, the reason that I have spent 50 years of my life working with people in these kinds of situations is because my entire life was lived in the shadow of the Second World War.

I was born soon after the end of the Second World War, and that image of liberation was always on my mind and gave me courage and freedom. But the image of what my parents talked to me about—sometimes very explicitly and sometimes not so explicitly—was that I grew up in a country that had been thoroughly destroyed. Well, you wouldn't know that if you go to the Netherlands today, but it was.

I remember playing in areas where there were still bombs, where there were lots of signs of the destruction. I grew up in a flat that was built after the war and was available only for those who had been bombed in the war or who had been in the Holocaust. So my whole childhood, I was surrounded by families where the fathers had either been in Japanese camps of war—because there were many Dutch people who got involved in Indonesia in the Japanese war camps—and they had terrible nightmares about this.

And there were people who had survived the Holocaust. One thing I can tell you is that I had to work this out very carefully by chatting about it with my friends, my parents, to figure out what had happened to whom and what it was all about, because there was a kind of conspiracy of silence about it. My own father was in a German work camp for the first years of the war, which gave him many nightmares.

But in the second part of the war, he was hidden away and had joined the underground resistance movement and held a radio contact with Britain in preparation for trying to end this terrible war. Even now, I'm afraid to tell you this because my whole life, my parents told me never to share that secret. I realized that's completely insane; there’s absolutely no reason to, but it is exactly what was said.

So there was a terrible kind of understanding of what this meant, and I think it became very important both to my parents and myself to find a new vision—a new hope about the world. They took us all around Europe in the first years; I remember from when I was three years old, we used to go to Germany, trying to make us make friends with German children so that these things would never happen again. Well, as if.

. . Anyway, that was very much.

. . My outset in life, so I resonate deeply with Maya Angelou's words, which I put at the start of my book: "You may write me down in history with your bitter, twisted lies.

You may trod me in the very dirt, but still, like dust, I'll rise. Learn how to create social structures where we give each other that feedback and where each of us finds ways of contributing what we are good at contributing. Thirdly, we need a sense of self-worth, so people need to learn how to work out their inner voice, their inner peace, their inner sense of who they are, and hang on to the feeling that they are a good person, which is always in question in a war.

I know how my dad struggled with the idea that having done something illicit secretly and having hidden in a loft with other members of the underground movement made him, in some ways, a bad person, because he had been hidden and secretive, and there were other people he knew who would have judged him for that. So, let’s get rid of that hold on and help people reclaim their sense of self-worth; it makes a huge difference to how strong they become. Lastly, but I think most importantly, people need a sense of purpose; they need to feel that what they do is important, that they are connected to something beyond themselves, and that they know exactly what their project is and where they want to get to.

If a person can keep going in the general direction of those four objectives, they will overcome any crisis. It's as simple as that because, really, they have a sense of having freedom in those four spheres of their lives: the physical space, the social space, the personal space, and the spiritual space. Although things have been severed at all those levels, they find ways of making new connections at all those levels.

So, very briefly, because of course it's very complex to get this kind of existential resilience: physically, you need to attend to your safety and ensure that you get enough sleep; this is crucial. You need to eat food, have some level of comfort, like heat, and feel that your survival is safe so that you can heal, repair, and recover. This is crucial for those who are at the front; they should not be exhausted and should be given plenty of that physical safety.

Socially, you've got to create strong relationships with each other: camaraderie, building trust, mutual support, mutual understanding, encouraging people to talk to each other about their pain, their worries, and their anxieties, and feeling the recognition in each other that they share that same concern and belong to the same group and care for each other; they share with each other and can count on support. This is the system you've got to create. Psychologically, you've got to teach people how to think clearly and calmly about things, to make sense of things, to stay realistic about it, analyze it, gain further understanding, and adopt a new perspective.

They need to take charge of that reflective process, learn to question, think critically, and take responsibility for building their character. They'll feel much better knowing they can do this. Spiritually, they have to review their values because, very often, what happens in these situations is that religious beliefs are challenged, and therefore, the support of a religion is lost.

This happened very strongly to my parents, who after the war abandoned their previous religion and created a new value system. What they did was study all world religions and try to extract from that what was still valid in the world. So we need to review values, get a new vision of what matters, build trust in that, and get a sense that we can dialectically overcome contradictions towards transformation and transcendence.

We can find meaning and purpose even in the worst of circumstances. Read Viktor Frankl; he is an absolute shining light in that respect. Now, everything I've said assumes the importance of connectivity at these four levels of a person's life because this is how meaning is created.

We create a framework of meaning, like a puzzle put together by seeing that things fit together, that they belong together, that they are true. Meaninglessness is when everything gets torn apart and nothing seems to hold together anymore. So, being able to have that connectivity is key to emotional well-being, and that can be done in lots of ways.

It's not just about putting pieces of the puzzle together; it's also about weaving things together or creating a tapestry or knitting it together. There are lots of human metaphors of activities that we have in the world where things are connected and fall into their right places, and that feels wonderful when that happens. Of course, that connectivity is what you guys have created by coming together online, which is a wonderful new way for us to rise above what's happening locally, to remember that there is a wider world, and we're still connected, as Pat was reminding us at the start of this seminar.

So, normally, when we feel life is going well, we kind of feel we are in control of all of our connections and it's all sort of working out quite well. Little bits go wrong, and then we hasten to reconnect them or replace them. But in a war, the whole thing feels like it's falling apart.

Of course, the images I've shown you are external images, but what's happening in your little brain is exactly the same. Your neural network is similarly connected by the adaptability, the flexibility, and the way in which your neurons are making these synaptic connections. Literally, when you are in a crisis, some of that goes dead on you; it doesn’t work anymore.

Because if you try to make that connection, you know, if your house has been bombed as was the case for my grandparents' house, and you lose your safety and become a refugee, then you can't think about. . .

That anymore. That whole bit of your brain that gives you safety and security, thinking about your safe spaces, the things in your house— all of that is destroyed. We now know that, fortunately, brains are far more plastic and adaptable than we thought, and we actually not only make new neural connections the whole time, but we can actually create new neurons.

So that is the task: to be adaptable and to realize that we need to support each other to make those connections. I did quite a lot of work with the European citizens who lived in the United Kingdom in, uh, 2016 when the UK voted for Brexit. There were 5 million people who suddenly felt disenfranchised.

Now, I know that's nothing like having people shooting at you and bombing you, but nevertheless, when you are told you cannot stay in your home anymore, that has a huge impact on you. So we set up a support service and did a lot of research with people, which I talk about in that book as well. What we found is that these people were having all the symptoms of mental health problems which they had never before had in their lives: they had insomnia, loss of appetite, depression, anxiety, identity crisis, a sense of insecurity, and despair.

We found that their whole lives were in question suddenly, and they became hugely afraid of British people who might disapprove of them being there. They didn't even dare to speak their birth language in the street anymore. Many of their children were bullied in school when other children found out that they weren't properly British.

It was a very weird time in the United Kingdom, and it has not been talked about anywhere near enough. So we found this loss of meaning for these people in those four dimensions: their homes were no longer safe; they were thinking about suicide and immigration; socially, they had begun to feel worthless; they couldn't get jobs anymore; they couldn't even get places to rent for a while. They felt a loss of identity, shame about who they were, and guilt about having come to live in the UK when the UK didn't want them there.

It was amazing and horrible. Spiritually, they felt the loss of purpose. They felt their EU values had been stolen from them; that peace, freedom, and solidarity were in jeopardy.

It was exactly all the same things that we found in the research we did with refugees from other countries. The reality is that there are many refugees in the world, and that the UK, which is always going on about not wanting to take more immigrants, is actually only taking, so far, 1% of all the people in the world seeking sanctuary. So it's a highly exaggerated problem, really, when you look at places like Turkey, Jordan, Congo, and Ethiopia.

They have taken 4 million Syrians each, for instance. You know, through the war in Ukraine, at one point there were nearly 8 million Ukrainians going abroad to find other places to live, and 5 million of them were displaced within Ukraine itself. Currently, it is believed there's only about 6 million Ukrainians living across the rest of Europe, so a few have gone back, especially to Kyiv.

I think now one of the things that happens when people become refugees is that they realize that there is a normalization of things that were previously completely unthinkable. Hannah Arendt, in her book *Eichmann in Jerusalem,* has really made loads of contributions to understanding what goes on. She talked about evil becoming structural; it becomes acceptable in the world.

What people find is it becomes ordinary. So, you know, when people were rounded up in Poland or in other countries, people looked at it and were turning a blind eye, because it was like, "Oh, maybe this is okay. Maybe this is a good thing.

You know, all these people are going to be given a place where they'll feel more together with each other. " People started normalizing it, rationalizing, making it sound as if it was okay. So she said, “The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who have never made up their minds to do good or evil; they're just going along with what is happening.

” And I fear she was very right about that. The Mental Health Foundation statistics for asylum seekers— and I'm only looking at the bit at the bottom there, translators— is that research shows that asylum seekers are five times more likely to have mental health needs than the general population, and 61% of them will experience serious mental health distress. Why is that?

Because they lose safety and value at all dimensions of their life. That is what happens. So we do a lot of qualitative research at the New School.

All of our doctoral students do phenomenological research, and Armen Danesh, an Iranian refugee in the UK, did this wonderful piece of research with political refugees from Iran in the UK. Hannah Arendt said, "Drven from country to country, refugees represent the vanguard of their peoples. " They are often people who are paying a huge price because they were in danger, so this makes them special straight away.

All the people who suffer from these kinds of situations are special people; never forget that. So he found that all his participants had suffered immense losses: they had lost family members and friends, had seen people executed, had lost their own home, their possessions; they'd lost their support networks; they'd lost their self-esteem very often, and their identity. They had to become adaptable.

They had to affirm their human rights. They had to go through the fire to create that resilience and that courage— courage that allowed them to go on. Research we did—uh, Nancy Hakim—dealt with research on people who have become refugees and, therefore, have become bi-rooted or multi-rooted.

What they find is that they have abandoned their country of origin; they're no longer part of that, but they're also not yet part of the other country either. What they tend to do is to find their bearings above themselves. They rise above it, look at the sun and the stars, and remember that the moon is shining in their home country as well as here.

Now their identity becomes less nationalistic and more relative, more flexible, less personal, and less local. They typically have more compassion for other people who are in the same situation. So ironically, the people in the world who are going through these situations are the ones we most need for the future of the planet.

You are the people who are suffering and whose eyes are opening to how humankind is messing up. You are the people who will make the world aware of that because this is not just about war; this is not just about climate change; this is not just about the loss of biodiversity. It is about the loss of humanity and the loss of intelligence in people to live in the right way—and you know that better than anybody.

One word of caution, going back very much to what M was saying: I, too, did work with Holocaust survivors. I worked with Dr Sebastians in Leaden, who worked with LSD therapy with Holocaust survivors, and I used to see in therapy the Holocaust survivors who lived in London and who would travel to Leaden for their LSD therapy. This student of mine, Susan Yakov Vu—now a colleague—did her research on survivors of the Falkland War, specifically UK soldiers who had been in the Falkland War and who had seen active engagement.

Most particularly, she worked with people who had been involved in the sinking of HMS Sheffield; her own husband was one of them. Of course, they were all exposed to the worst possible circumstances you can imagine—being trapped on a vessel that is being attacked by your enemy and where you can see all of the casualties right in front of your eyes. You can’t run away, and you're starting to sink.

So these were people who had become deeply traumatized and who said in the research process that once you've had that experience, you feel that nobody who has not had that experience will ever be able to understand you. I think this is a really important point. If you've actually been next to a person who stood on a landmine or you've seen people being shot down all around you, these are things, even though you may never think about them, you will never forget.

What she found is that it wasn't so much that this existential crisis in their life had caused trauma; what it meant—these are her actual words—is that combat doesn't cause trauma symptoms; combat causes individuals to question all that they think they knew about the world, everything that they valued, all their own actions, all their priorities to date, all their ideas about the future. In doing so, it creates an existential crisis in which they have to cope with a sudden, complete sucking away of meaning—a vacuum of meaning. This is something that will happen to those who've seen active service in the worst of circumstances.

What she found was that every single one of the people she interviewed had clammed up about it and had been unable to speak to their families. All of them, 20 years on, had divorced; none of them felt they could talk to anybody but the best-trained therapists, who themselves had been through similar circumstances or to the friends with whom they had shared it. Now, this needs a particular therapeutic approach for those people because here we're talking about such total isolation in your trauma.

We've got to find ways of overcoming that. Simone de Beauvoir said, "You can't lead a proper life in a society that isn't proper; whichever way you turn, you're always caught. You can't draw a straight line in curved space.

" So that is when that happens to the person; they need to be able to be surrounded by other people who can still do that, who can still rebuild a world they can believe in. They have to rebuild an inner coherence, an integrity. They've got to be able to talk about what they did and overcome the shame and not feel that it's destroying their integrity because that is what's happening to those people.

They've got to find a way to be proud. For these poor guys in the Falkland War, that was very difficult because they had doubts about whether that war was legitimate and right, and they didn't dare say that. I don't think you will find this with Ukrainian soldiers because you are so clear about it being something that is necessary and is a thing that everyone in the world stands behind.

So I think it is a different situation; there is a sense of community with others. You've got to bring releasement, liberation into their lives. You've got to bring love back into their lives—being heard, being listened to, being understood.

You've got to help them feel they are good people, not just heroes. You know that doesn't do it; being a hero is a short-term thing. You've got to find an inner integrity and a connectivity again.

You've got to have hope that you can set the record straight and contribute something peaceful and constructive to your society once again and find new purpose. I don't think I have time to talk about my view of how the person is. .

. Situated in the world, because I believe we're coming to the end of my talk, I will go across that. But remember that an existential crisis shatters a person.

However, when you're shattered, you're also liberated to ask new questions: What does matter in the world? What matters to me? Who am I?

How am I going to live my life now? What is it that I need to do? Which direction do I need to go?

This story I'll quickly tell you about is a wonderful example of somebody who did that. This is Antoan L, who was the husband of Alen L, who was killed in the IS terrorist attack on the Bataclan in Paris in 2015. Instead of becoming victimized and mourning, he wrote to the terrorists and said, "You stole away the life of an exceptional being, the love of my life, the mother of my son, but you will not have my hatred.

" This is so key; I can't emphasize it enough: do not allow the enemy inside your heart. Do not give them your hatred. Stay focused on peace, on the right purpose, on what you know is right, and keep working towards establishing those principles in the world.

Don't let them drag you into the mud. That is absolutely the right thing to do. Stay free; stay fully feeling.

Feel the hatred and the anger occasionally, but go beyond it. Find a way to work with your feelings to find that existential courage and affirm your life and your being in the presence of the threat of non-being, which is what Paul Tillich said courage is about. We have to learn to find that courage.

It is something that comes as we live with our resilience. Of course, we only have a limited freedom in how we can affirm those good, positive, constructive values, but even a small movement in the right direction, as SRA said, gives you a sense of progress and meaning, and that is how you need to progress. So keep progressing, keep facing the anxiety that arises in the gap between the certainty you used to have and the possibility of creating something better in the future.

Allow your crisis to transform you. Feel the anxiety that comes with it; you are standing in the midst of life. War is also a form of life, and you can befriend this anxiety by taking a leap of faith towards a future that will be far better than anything you've known.

As Sartre said, a lucid view of the darkest situation is already, in itself, an act of optimism. Indeed, it implies that the situation is thinkable. You've got back your power, your integrity, your engagement, and your activity.

So go beyond those threats; don't close off your freedom. Remember Nietzsche's saying: courage is the best destroyer. Courage that attacks— for in every attack there is a triumphant shout.

And Camus said, "In the midst of winter, I found there was within me, within each of us, an invincible summer. " It is only in winter that we truly appreciate the fact that summer comes back; summers always come back. We grow when we face challenges.

Diamonds are created through mishaps and catastrophes and intense pressure over time. Pearls are created by grit, going under your shell, making pearls, pebbles in the sea. Get worn down; get their edges smoothed out.

Even sea glass becomes beautiful by being bounced around. When you're in a dark place, it may feel like you've been buried, but actually, you have been planted. Nurture your inner self.

Remember Viktor Frankl's words: "In the concentration camps, we watched and witnessed some of our comrades—not the Nazis, our comrades—behave like swine, while others behaved like saints. Man has both potentialities within himself; which one is actualized depends on decisions, not conditions. " You are confronted with your freedom to learn from what you are going through.

Show us how it's done and tell us about it. We need to learn; humanity needs to learn about these things. I just don't have time.

Remember the four dimensions: keep creating physical harmony; use your skills, use science, create something better. Remember to create social connections in an Ubuntu way, in a generous way where we give to each other and support each other. Keep creating your inner integrity and your inner peace.

Keep educating yourself; don't give up. Keep creating new spiritual connections. Ask yourself what is true, seek meaning, create new vision with each other and for yourself, and do not give up on moral values.

Create value and meaning; it is done step by step, brick by brick, drop by drop. Keep going. War is also life; you're living truth; you're finding it out.

Let's create a better world together, because this kind of crap is not acceptable, and we need to do better all together. Be part of that; be part of that improvement that we so urgently need. Therapists are the guardians of the art of living.

We need to weave it together; we need to show people what they can do, what they can believe in, how they can live better, and transcend these difficulties. We create a safe space in that clearing; they can allow themselves to calm, come to thought, and find sanctuary. That is hugely important.

Keep doing it; keep breathing; let it flow through you; don't let it destroy you. Keep focusing on nature; there is a huge reservoir of support there. Set the world to rights and find your purpose.

The light is there for all, no matter what situation you are in, and it will return in your lives. Thank you for being here today to think together about these issues. It is so important and so crucial.

Be steadfast; keep collaborating; stay kind; build your solidarity, and let's come to a better future. World together, thank you EAP for bringing us together. Well, thank you, dear Emmy.

I think you are the invincible summer for all of us. This morning, you have brought the summer into the darkness of what many people who are taking part in this symposium are experiencing. And as someone just wrote in the chat, you must have a look in the chat; there are lots of messages.

But that someone just wrote, you have the ability to bring hope and to give hope—hope that is now. I would invite all of our participants today to watch Emmy's presentation again. It will be on our website, so watch it again when you have a moment of despair, because Emmy indeed has the ability to bring hope into our darkest moments and help us to see actually the way in which the darkness can be transformed into thriving.

Totally. I would also like to reflect, because I think it's absolutely right to do so. You've pointed to the positive qualities of our Ukrainian colleagues, and this is something that I too have experienced and we all experience.

I pay tribute to all of the Ukrainian colleagues in our group, but also to all of you Ukrainian psychotherapists for the ways in which you are conducting yourselves and holding yourselves, and giving a model for humanity. Absolutely right. It's very important to realize that, guys.

You will be an inspiration to us, and we have to make sure we're right about that and let the world know what you're doing. Exactly. Now, I'm just looking at time, and I think after such wonderful presentations to us, we need a proper coffee break.

So I'm just going to move our timing forwards, and our next presentation will begin at 10 past 12, not at 12 noon. So let's have a 15-minute coffee break, and we'll come back at 10:02. I look forward to seeing you then.

Thank you again, Emmy.