John Oliver Is Still Working Through the Rage

so you don't have to wear headphones uh um personally I just don't like the nerdy big cans on my head podcast look so oh oh it's literally it's just that superficial it is just that superficial that is why we're not doing it I am [Music] vain hello it is a pleasure to have you it's a pleasure to be here thank you for having me you just walked through the halls of the New York Times this is your first time here right it is my first time in this building yes I saw the red staircase and

you know that really is the main thing isn't it that you think of when you walk through this bu it's empty right now though we're here quite early so it's less bustling than you would want to cartoon Newsroom to be I will take that under advisement it usually is busy we are busy here normally this is not an accusation of there's basically nothing happening here at the New York as it happens if you were looking for people throwing B pieces of paper at each other and yelling about deadlines that was not my experience not your

experience not yet no not yet we are in this very contentious political moment and one of the things that I noticed was that you have said you've never wanted to cover a debate on your show yes is that still true even though President Biden had this unbelievable debate in June that caused the race to upend itself and the most recent debate with KLA Harrison Trump I mean they've been pretty consequent qual yes I guess the Biden Trump debate was pretty consequential cuz Biden isn't the nominee anymore so it' be hard to push back on that

I guess it's very hard to say how consequential it is in real time isn't it that's that's the problem uh it can feel very consequential but you just don't know and so I don't know what we could add to the commentary on those debates that isn't widely available everywhere else it feels like to a certain extent our show has moved into an area where we are very much slow cooking and so there's not much there for us uh also though those debates tend to be pretty uninspiring to me like as a form of entertainment yeah

you could you could definitely be entertained by what happened but you know what they actually mean I don't I don't know yet right and however much better it felt to watch it it is pretty depressing that it's this close that's guess my aftertaste from it that it's still this close when everyone can see what you can see in that debate it's hard not to find that somewhere between depressing infuriating and outrageous Last Week Tonight has been on the air for 10 years yeah and that Maps pretty neatly onto the Trump era you sounded like you

about to sigh then it's been on for 10 years no that's not what I was doing let me be clear um but when you look back what are the biggest ways that you think the show has changed so when we first began we were doing our main story in one week then it became clear that was a crazy thing to it was a terrible way to set it up because we would come up with the idea for a story start writing 3 Days Later research would come in which would wipe away everything that we just

written so now you're trying to write the show in two days and that's not a good idea so now the answer to how our shows change is that we we write those main stories in six weeks so we're writing six stories at one time so that doesn't really relate to Trump's role in the last 10 years but it in terms of the development of our show that is the most critical part of it h you know it's funny going back to the first season as a viewer I found it to be remarkably similar no yeah

there's a consistency there I mean it as a compliment I was I was lit wincing both inside and outside you did this face like what is she going to say I don't do many interviews about myself so I am I am kind of emotionally in the defensive position and unfortunately I think it's translating to my face because I I I every time I say something just your face looks like you're absolutely you know having a very very difficult bowel movement and so I'm sorry wow let me start again all right um you know there's a

consistency there and it does seem like you understood what you were up to quite early on I think we learned some big lessons early on because I I guess one of them would be we did one story called prisons and it was about 16 minutes and that seemed like a long time at the time and I think what we gradually Learned was it is crazy to try and talk about all the problems with prisons in 16 minutes especially if two of those minutes are going to be a song with Sesame Street characters at the end

so since then we've basically come back and redone that story in 20 different ways cuz we've talked about prison labor prison phone calls prison recidivism prison re-entry like it's um there are so many different aspects to criminal justice that you can't just slap prisons on it and say oh we've done it now it was in in hindsight I look back at that and do slightly winced thinking oh man we're moving really fast through some incredibly complicated aspects of this problem that deserve a lot more attention than we're giving it you know you obviously say you

don't do journalism yeah I do see you as a sort of opinion columnist though I mean it does seem like an extended very pointed very deliberate crafting of an argument that you want people to understand does that resonate for you maybe I mean I think the certainly by the end of the story like the the last few minutes of the story is is opinion right that is so right whenever we're saying so what can we do everything after that probably is an opinion because people will feel differently about that everything up to that point is

it is what it is like we've so rigorously facted and legal checked everything up to that point there's no real opinion or wiggle room in that well I mean opinion columnists also get fact checked I guess what I'm I'm getting at though is not that facts are mutable but you can choose the kinds of arguments that you that one puts forward right and so you're you're crafting a narrative about certain issues I guess the right centrally with we work really hard to make sure that we do incredibly rigorous fact checking both because we want it

to be right and if we're talking about companies just basic self-preservation right you don't want how big is your fact checking team oh I mean we have six senior researchers six Junior researchers and a whole bunch of lawyers so yeah a lot so yeah very very important to us I guess that's that's why I'm instinctively pushing back a little bit on this is I'm not saying you said it like this but this is uh this is just opinion that's of course you're right that how we feel about a story is probably present in terms of

how we research it but I really can't stress enough how much work goes into making sure that we are totally right on on the facts like if you're going to work this hard we're going to put our researchers through this we're gonna for six weeks looking at sometimes incredibly D stories if you going ask writers to write jokes with sometimes incredibly Bleak material you want to make sure that that stands up to scrutiny that would be too depressing to make mistakes there talk to me about the process who is comes up with the ideas well

everybody can pitch stories that that's the everyone on staff can pitch stories in our email Channel and then we'll give it to a researcher to say is there something here like has this story shifted in any way is now a good time to tell this story they'll go away for two or three days come back with a broad answer uh on that if we feel like it's worth going forward we'll add a footage producer to that story to check whether there's any footage to go with it whether there's something that we can show to tell

the story and then they will write packets over the next couple of weeks uh there'll be like a 400 page footage packet nor 100 page research packet the writers will have been following along with some of those meetings then they will take those packets away for a week write outlines Jess outlines then we will combine those outlines then we will send them away to write a draft that'll be another week then it'll be the production week and is it you that's deciding the topics myself and Tim carll we run the show together Tim was at

The Daily Show with me yeah and what are the ones that appeal to you the most that's a good question I guess what was there God I'm blanking there was a story that we did recently that had Tim and I bouncing in our chairs a little bit and walking away from care Hawaii RFK why are you going to hit me with hospice care I don't know Hospice Care was interesting um but uh I don't know that it was that I I don't know I guess in general it would be ones that feel really challenging that

it feels like we can bring something to with you know directing this machine that we built directing them at a complicated perhaps superficially unappealing story and getting something palatable and fun out of it either that or I guess the really honest answer is something very very dumb so you have these heavy subjects and the two ways that I see in your show that you use comedy is either taking something that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand and just putting in something completely absurd um to lighten it to give it levity to

just have it be a kind of mood breaker or using things that are very much to do with the issue at hand but are funny in and of themselves because people have said absurd things or they've you know they've done things that are just kind of crazy is that the kind of stuff that you're looking for the material that you're looking for after you've done the bones of you know this kind of big Endeavor you you mean once we've got the outlines of the story itself definitely that's that is the challenge for the writers and

it's a really hard challenge but it's a really satisfying one as well and we try our best to put the writers in a position where they can succeed but I think we've got better at that over the years in the past we would sometimes be handing them stuff that is so dry and so Bleak they justifiably would be sitting there going what do you what do you want me to do with this like this is a horrendous episode of like a comedic chopped I can't give you a cake out of these ingredients so now we

try and like troubleshoot that on the way in so that they have stuff which is enough stuff which is light and funny enough that they can attack the material more directly so that you vary the jokes when it comes to pacing out the clip of the show that is something that we look at constantly but I guess the the first time that we really reckon with it is when we get the writers outlines and we combine them cuz then we're literally putting the story up on flash cards so that you can see it and this

is going to sound ridiculous but we literally have like a blue star sticker that we stick on a clip that's really sad uh and red stars and ones that are very funny and so you want to make sure that you in terms of a blue star really sad clip uh you don't want many of those because those are really hard to write any joke off without it feeling incredibly glib what you want is as many Red Star Clips as you can that's the challenge for the footage producers so it's a hugely collaborative process and at

its best it should be better than the sum of all of our parts and how much does your view of the topic change over the course of the story I mean does the process confirm strengthen you know your thinking or does it challenge it oh it can definitely shift it you can go I mean I guess one of the slightly dispiriting patterns you can find in researching these stories is some of the data that is most commonly passed around by activists can collapse there is some real as I'm sure you know garbage data passed around

where it feels like well you've inflated this by 15% and it really did not need to there's a perfectly usable stat that's slightly less than what you're saying which you can actually stand on rather than this one which is just nothing um that can be pretty annoying when foundational stats collapse under relatively minor scrutiny um but things are generally with some of these systemic problems worse than you thought when you start looking at them um It's relatively common that at some point in the story process that we've just talked about I'll walk into Tim Carell's

office and we'll look at each other after we've just learned a certain part of a story and say burn it down burn everything down to the ground you feel rage yeah because things are so much worse than you thought they were and you thought they were pretty bad then you have to work through that right because nism is completely useless that think cow's way out so you work through that and I have found generally with these stories that the light at the end of the tunnel orbe it that light might be smaller than you would

like it to be ideally is that there are activists making small incremental progress on the ground and that that progress is really really important how do you not give into the nihilism because you delve into these very disturbing Bleak some would say almost dystopian topics and and classic comedy show F yeah and I mean you're still angry and going into you know your colleague's office and and feeling Furious how would you not be though unless you're a sociopath yeah I don't know how uh I don't know how you wouldn't be um I mean the thing

that's exciting about the show is that we have these resources right in a time when expertise has been absolutely put through a sausage grinder we are very very fortunate to have researchers who have access to Great experts in a field whatever that field may be from Criminal Justice to deep sea mining they will talk to us to make sure that we get something right and it is such a privilege to be able to find something interesting and then send a researcher away to talk to Great experts in the field to get an answer it's it's

having a machine for your own curiosity that is like the internet but it brings back reliable results do you know what else it's like what [Laughter] journalism well we let me let me say like with with the journalism tag it's it's a little tricky right I am not a journalist I did not train as a journalist we do have journalists working for our show a lot of them I'm glad someone's hiring journalists unfortunately it might might just be us um so yes I I am not a journalist but they are for sure but don't you

think like saying that you're not a journalist or not acting as a journalist allows you to alide some of the accountability of journalism right which is oh that's interesting I really hope that we don't elide that responsibility I I I both don't think I'm a journalist cuz I'm I really think I am not I could send my researchers away for 6 weeks and I think they'll come back saying yeah you're not but in terms of uh the responsibilities of Journalism we do have intense factchecking because we want it to be right I mean again we

our stories are those big stories are aggregations of incredible journalism so it cannot function without journalism now we we recheck it to make sure it's accurate or that it hasn't changed but we're building this to make jokes it's just we want the foundations to be solid or those jokes fall apart those jokes have no structural Integrity if the facts underneath them are so that's what's important it's funny because it's true sort of thing well it's only it's only funny if it's true right yeah and so it has to be true for it to be funny

but I guess the why is are you trying to make the world a better place are you trying to no but I mean really what is the big what is the what is the big driving force here because some people would say I'm just want to make people laugh and entertain them uh some people would say yeah I want people to think about something and and and maybe um have a nice conversation over dinner with their husband you seem to have a much bigger aim here I will say the most important thing to me and

and to lots of of people at the show is to do this in service of writing really funny weird jokes about interesting things so that is our outcome it's not necessarily to make the world a better place and not sure that comedy can do that to a certain extent sometimes it's fiddling while Rome Burns but I think what we want is to get the best ingredients that we can to write comedy from that that's the really honest answer it's the thing I love the most in the world I love writing comedy so much it's just

it feels like this is the best process through which we can write interesting fun surprising jokes it seems to have made you uncomfortable that I've accused you of trying to make the world a better place I guess the prob I mean this might be a hangup of being British British people took a real stab if not making the world a better place making it a more British place and it didn't go too well so yeah you don't want me involved in that um your segments now go on YouTube after they air on Sundays yes but

this season for the first time HBO is delaying putting the episodes on YouTube by 4 days yes I assume this is to encourage people to subscribe I assume that too yes to Max the streaming service I take that that's frustrating to you yeah it's hu it's massively frustrating to me I was not happy with it at all I certainly can make the same assumption that you do which is that they want to make sure that people watch it I would prefer people watch the show in its entire form when it goes out this is a

partly self- serving not just that I would like my employer to be happy but we do take a lot of effort to make sure that the show makes sense as a whole so that if we're doing a really Bleak main story we like putting real dumb stuff around it right when we when we did death penalty drugs the pentop arbital pretty bleak story we made sure that we had a story after that about a stock photo model that we managed to fly from aaban I like the conflation of those two things so I would much

rather people watched the show all together because that's how we make it so I hope that they I hope it works because because I I I I worry about it I I worry that they I I I I guess I I it remains to be proven to me that this was necessary are you worried about the method of distribution I mean we know that you know cable TV generally speaking is um sure changing changing a lot a lot and definitely you know YouTube is obviously exponentially growing and it's a place where a lot of different

types of people come to get their content so you want everyone to see it in its full entirety but is it is it also that it reaches a just a different type of person I think that's what I was what what I love about having the show on YouTube all the a the a story is that we can reach Beyond HBO subscribers I think that that feels really important to me I think it's a good advert for HBO I think it reflected really well on them and still does the fact that they release this main

story I really really appreciate the fact that they do that I would rather they did it straight after the show that we we've always done it but I'm very grateful that they are willing to still do it all because I do think it's a good advert not just for our show but for the network cuz we are very lucky to have a big staff right that staff costs money uh and so we're lucky to have an employer that will pay the costs of our show which is small by their standards by Dragon standards um but

you know not insignificance I mean do you see your show in the same format that it is in the same way that it is 10 years from now I mean I hope so if I'm still alive um you look healthy what you say uh I'm going to have to have that statement sent through this building's fact Checkers and I don't think either of us going to like the answer that comes back you look healthy you have to add some qualifying language do that for a 47y old man with two children who's been through a pandemic

recently and a stressful job orbe it that stressful job isn't that stressful by by General standards um uh yeah I I have no idea what the future is of uh television or of late night there will be a future um uh but I don't know what it's going to look like yet and I have an active interest for sure in knowing the answer to that last week tonight was renewed for another three seasons last year yes meaning it will be on the air till at least 2026 yes um what oh boy boy oh boy I

didn't like the way you said the word what there what do you think you're doing what do you have planned over the next 5 Years cuz I'd take any dream trips right now you want visit Mahal you should go you should go now I do not think you should go now but I am curious what would make you feel done with the show that's a good question I don't know I've seen I guess I worked with John Stewart for a long time I saw him get exhausted so I know what that looks like um I

saw him Reckoning with the fact I don't know if I can do this in another I've done this in every possible way that I can do it uh and he was right about that like he can't really do it any better um I've not hit that point yet I still I still absolutely love making the show I I get excited like to your point of like bouncing up and down in the chairs when when we feel like we're on to something with a story or we worked out something really dumb to do it's so fun

maybe I've made this sound very academic the way that we make it the show but it's so fun I can't believe that we get to do it I can't believe that we get to Ram stories down people's throats that they might not not naturally want to hear and that they will watch it and I can't believe that we get to play with HBO's resources and do dumb things on fiscally irresponsible scales I love it so much so I guess my answer is that point might come I don't feel like I'm there yet cuz this is

I still can't believe that we get to do this why haven't you ever had a Fillin host huh you mean like Kimmel or like or let way well like I mean it's a I I had considered that uh I think it's a little tricky not because I'm indispensable because I don't think that's true I think it's more that because of the way that we make the show I don't think that would make any sense because there are these six week Cycles so you would need someone if I'm talking myself out of a job here but

uh you would need someone to come in for one of those cycles and that's a lot to ask of them honestly we have a stand in who does uh like a technical rehearsal uh that we View From the Start he's pretty good we call him hot John because he's pretty good-looking as well and sometimes you watch him do the rehearsal and think oh that's pretty good you have a stand in called hot John that's not his name but it's what it's what the staff call him and I think I've I've really thinking about it now

I think I've participated in that joke without fully realizing that I'm the butt of it John Oliver thank you so much you're welcome thank you we'll talk again yes after the break I called John Oliver back and asked him about why he can't help but laugh at the hard [Music] stuff hey Lulu hey how are you good thanks good wos DS where are you I'm in our office so it should be quiet it's before the dogs get here so okay I I want to ask you something about our last conversation where you couldn't remember which

episode it was that got you bounc in your chair do you remember now oh I had yes before then I was say the thing that has been most rattling around my head since we talked is I I know that we we spent a long time talking about the label of Journalism and I didn't want you to feel like I was dodging it there I I guess just to be completely clear we really don't Elight the responsibility of that term the accuracy of our show is so so important to us we go we go to lengths

that I think many would find absurd from the outside in terms of accuracy we like we recheck reporting to check that it is still valid when we show people in Clips we try and contact as many of them as we can to check that they felt their story was told accurately and whether there's any other context that we should know we do so much and the responsibility of that label is really important it just doesn't apply to me and I guess the thing that I wanted to get to the bottom of because it seemed interesting

to me was cuz this comes up quite a lot and this felt like it would be this kind of conversation feels like it might be a good time to get to the bottom of it is I was wondering why it's so interesting to you or why getting to a fuller answer is it that you feel like I've dodged in in the past and what how would you feel if I said yes to that that I am a journalist cuz my sense is you'd feel no you're not rightly um I think the reason it comes up

a lot is because there is a sense that you are a news source but you don't have the constraints that journalists have right you can for example take a topic that is very complicated and difficult and put in a lot of jokes uh to make it Arch or funny um to sort of move the audience in a particular direction and so I think there is this sort of dissonance that happens when journalists like myself are engaging with this we're curious about how you view yourself I mean I don't think it's like a it's not a

knock it's more just trying to understand how you view yourself and your show and where it sits in the ecosystem right that's it yeah yeah and I I guess that is where much of the show would be I guess to that first comparison you made would be more editorial right it's just that I guess what I I guess when I recoiled at being described as an oped was was not wanting the worst version of that to be applied to this show not just someone deciding I'm going to say my opinion because it is not just

that H to get back to a point that I wanted to make because I think this is useful to the discussion that we've been having is do you remember which episode it was that got you bouncing in your chair I do and it was an episode recently cuz it because I remember the literal bounce and it was it was um uh we were working on an episode about the West Bank and I think what I was so excited about was the challenges that were ahead of us and the material that we were gathering and the

opportunity that we had and it really felt to me in working on that story it felt like oh this is the point of having a show where you can talk about whatever you want to talk about this is kind of using that incredible opportunity to do something hard I found this episode fascinating I was in Jerusalem as a reporter for many many years this stuff is really hard yeah that episode talks about the Israeli settlements mhm and you really tried to parse what is very complicated yeah and very nuanced and you packed a lot in

so what was the reception after it went out uh I'm sure some people liked it some people loved it and some people hated it do you pay attention to that um I like paying a little bit of attention in the wake of our stories especially regarding how experts respond to it in in stories in general I know that people aren't always going to agree with the conclusions that we land on um but I do want experts to think that the information that we presented is accurate it raises this question for me about something you said

when we first talked basically that you ultimately see the show and the stories you focus on as a vehicle to write jokes yeah and I can see that logic when you're doing a piece about corn or UFOs for example both very funny and and you don't see the logic applying to something that's more complicated you don't do a half an hour about one of the most contentious issues in the world because it's comedy gold do you oh I mean that's that's an interesting perspective I guess comedy is the the way I handle the world so

it's the darkest moments of my life I still find myself compelled to try and make jokes either to take the weight of some of what's happening or to sometimes to feel what's happening a bit more I I find people employing comedy at moment of tragedy incredibly meaningful I know some might find it glib or offensive to me it is the absolute opposite of that when done well I I still think one of the one of the best moments in late night comedy over the last decade was uh Jimmy Kimmel talking about his son Billy's heart

surgery it was incredibly generous to be so emotionally honest and raw uh it was incredibly Brave to be that honest knowing that people were going to ask him how his son was every day for the rest of his life after that and and this is the most important thing to me it was really funny and the fact that he was telling jokes while choking through tears was the thing that really really meant something to me it was more sincere because he was communicating through jokes explain that to me it was more sincere because he was

communicating through jokes because it's how because it's the like I I love comedy so much it is like I say it has been it's my favorite thing just in general in the world so I do not see a distinction between how could you joke about this for me it's more like how could you not how could you not tell jokes about a situation that is absolutely absurd Darkly absurd but absurd does that make sense and that would apply to the West Bank too do you think it also gives I'm thinking of Jimmy Kimmel in particular

do you think it also gives people access to very uncomfortable emotions Pro probably and for me look I'm British right so my my ability to deal with my emotions is and has been Limited at best the very fact that I'm telling you yeah I find it better to laugh at things rather than you know feel them sincerely as a human being says something what I found so meaningful about Jimmy's thing was I had had um of our our first child's pregnancy was really difficult and I just couldn't I couldn't talk about it in general I

certainly could not do anything as generous as decided to talk about it publicly so that the people who would also experienced situations like that could feel that their experiences were being reflected back at them I I didn't have the emotional ability or even the comedic ability to do that so that's why I was so in awe of what he was doing in The Crucible of that pain it was just it's absolutely incredible as as a comedian what he managed to do and yet for me the fact I was laughing along with the lump in my

throat made it way more impactful for me has being a parent exacerbated that burn it down feeling that you mentioned about some of the ways the world is messed up or or the opposite I do remember after the brexit boat happened looking at my baby son and thinking oh this is sad your horizons have slightly contracted because you know he would have been able to have a British passport which would have been an EU passport meaning that he could live or work anywhere in the EU which for young people in Britain was a massively consequential

thing to have access to my little sister left College went straight to France started washing dishes in uh a bakery ended up learning to bake now she's a pastry chef like that the ability to move having those borders open massively consequential and so I I will say there was a selfish side of me watching that vote looking down at me and thinking oh your world got smaller that's very sad but no in general my my feeling of let's burn it down when we're at a point of researching a story where things seem utterly hopeless and

the history that we have of working through that dispair partly by seeing the incremental changes that are possible um that's probably pretty consistent I don't think they've really changed changed my disgust with the political process and my hope for better are you going to talk about that with your kids at the dinner table are you going to be that Dad oh God I mean it's a really fair use of that Dad there I mean that actually in the best possible way uh how do you mean am I going to say to them things are unfair

just like sit and talk about the state of the world and have them be engaged in it and yeah I'm probably going to be that t i mean my husband's like that with our daughter and she loves it some days and hates it others yeah of course that I think that feels like an utterly human response to that there's a time and a place for this Dad can we can we please talk about something else now John Oliver this has been an absolute pleasure thanks Lulu I appreciate it [Music]