Simon Sinek - Be a Better Leader | Prof G Conversations

maslov's hierarchy of needs that's you know self-actualization at the top maav made a bit of a mistake um and which is um if you look at the hierarchy of needs at the bottom the most basic need he articulates as food and shelter um and the third rung up is relationships um now I've never heard of anybody uh Dying by suicide because they were hungry I've heard of people dying by suicide because they were [Music] lonely Simon where does this find you I am back home in Los Angeles let's bust right into it you describe yourself

as an unshakable optimist and I'm I'm a naturally pessimistic person so I'm curious how do you maintain your optimism especially in challenging times and what advice would you give to someone uh who tends to be like myself kind of see the glasses half empty if you will so optimism doesn't mean I'm naive nor blind um and it's not blind positivity it's not looking at a broken world and be like everything's fine that's not how I am I'm quite cynical a lot of the time but I generally believe that the world tends toward good and I

believe that even if we're in darkness that if we come together and work together we will get through this and we will come out better than we went in so it's it's the undying belief that there's a light at the end of the tunnel and um you're sort of known as the leadership guy or the Y guy I guess breakdown for you what is the definition or the key to effective leadership I think you know leadership is an incredibly Miss misunderstood uh subject like I shouldn't really have to write books about it you know I

I I visited um rural Kenya recently um and met some people who we would describe as as poor and uh one of them one of the The Mamas she organized a women's Empowerment Group where they sort of help each other out and she was telling us how she does it and how she overcomes some of the challenges and literally she was telling me stuff that I've written about in other words she's a brilliant natural leader and she doesn't do it out of some sort of philosophical construct she does it because it's practical and it works

and if people are seen and heard and taken care of and feel like they can trust each other they'll take risks they'll open up they help each other for me leadership is the awesome responsibility to see those around us Rise um and what we can do when we're in a position of leadership whether it's formal or informal rank does not mean that you're a leader it just means you have authority um but if you're in a position of formal or informal leadership that you look to the left and look to the right and say what

can I do support you've often talked about the distinction between Natural Born leaders and Leadership developed as a skill and you've said that you think it can be developed if someone is Young and thinks I want to have develop that those leadership skills what are some exercises for doing that I mean first of all I don't believe leaders are born um I think that some people have an education when they're younger they have a coach they have a parent they have a guardian somebody in their life a teacher who does something right they model some

themselves after that person and and they seem to learn it younger or they have some trials and tribulations and they learn to overcome and rely on other people whatever it is but you know even some of the great leaders that we admire if you look back whether it's Steve Jobs or mahat m Gandhi like you see that they were learning and they didn't get it right A lot of the time especially when they were younger they learn those skills young people you know for me fundamentally the single best thing a young person can do is

really learn to be a friend learn to put away a device and learn how to engage with another human being learn how to uh be there for someone learn how to accept help when it's offered learn how to ask for help and all of these sort of pretty fundamental things about adolescence you know when we're very very young the only thing we want or need is the approval of our parents you know look daddy look what I made watch me jump over the step you know and then we give them positive reinforcement all that serotonin

flows and it feels really good and literally nobody else matters except Mom and Dad's approval that's it when we reach adoles and all the hormones start flowing we make this change this this this conversion where we now crave the approval of our friends and our peers very stressful for us very frustrating for our parents who who are who are they're watching us change really essential for a human being to learn to acculturate for The Wider group outside of their immediate family and so it should be natural that we learn to ask for help from friends

and learn to give help to our friends so you know to be a great leader learn learn learn learn learn friendship you've equated it to being a parent that is leadership what did you mean by that um well you don't get to choose your kids but you love your kids and you want to raise them to be the best that they can be you don't often get to choose your team if you're uh if you're promoted into position of leadership um but you still get to uh celebrate them and try your best to help raise

them uh to be the best that they can be and there are a lot of similarities in and a lot of things that that you can learn about leadership you can learn from parenting books for example affirming a child's feelings you know Dad I'm sad no you're not it's fine it's good what do you have to be sad about your life is great that's bad parenting you want to affirm the kids uh feelings uh same at work you know to talk people out of their feelings makes them feel unseen and unheard good leadership overlaps a

lot with good parenting because it's interaction with other human beings working to see them build confidence and be the best that they can be and sometimes we have to be patient to let them try again what do you think the biggest mistake that quotee unquote leaders or managers make I mean mean you talk about management versus leaders nobody wakes up in the morning to be managed nobody says I'd like to be managed please but we would all like to be led um and I think what you're doing is highlighting the problem a lot of leaders

act like managers you can manage a process you can manage a company um but you can't manage people you can lead people um and I think when we start managing people as if they are process things start to break down um and I think one of another very very very common mistake that newly minted leaders make is they believe that their intelligence or capacity or their ability to give answers to every question is what gives them their credibility to lead and so you'll see a lot of leaders lying hiding and faking they won't admit if

they don't know something they won't say I don't know they won't ask for help because they fear that that undermines their credibility which is completely false we get a lot of questions about mentorship so I'll turn the question to you what advice would you give someone who's looking for a mentor how did they go about finding a mentor so when my career was just sort of getting going I was introduced this introduced to this guy named Ron bruer um Ron uh very very accomplished entrepreneur really successful um and he was charming and lovely and super

helpful and wonderful in our meeting and you know about a week or two later I called Ron who's a very busy man and he took my call and a few weeks later I called him again I needed some advice and he took my call again and at some point we went out for lunch and eventually the sort of mentor menty relationship evolved and I thought of him as my mentor and I remember um we became quite close and I remember I was leaving his house one day and I used the MW for the first time

and I put my arm around him as I was saying goodbye and I said you know Ron I'm glad you're my mentor and he said something back I didn't expect he said and I'm glad you're mine and this is what I think great mentor relationships um are which which is it's it's both of us are mentors and both of us are mentees somebody who's had more experience is still learning about the world from somebody who's asking for help however I think they do evolve like friendships I don't think you can go up to some random

person and say will you be my mentor just as you can't go up to some random person on the street and say will you be my friend it's a relationship and for me the definition of a mentor is someone who always has time for you and you can't it can't be one-sided you can't simply just because someone's accomplished and you're not you can't just go up to them and and and think they're an because they they don't want to Mentor you just like you kind think someone's an because they don't want to be your friend

it's a relationship and there's a lot of sacrifice that comes with it what I love about mentorship is a mentor is not a champion I think people mistake them like in a company you know uh you can have Champions who can go to bat for you and put in a good word for you can get that promotion and the best mentors are not in your chain of command they're either outside of your department or even better outside of the company and the only thing they care about is you and your growth there's nothing they can

do to interact intervene it's a very pure relationship where you both you both learn you both give and you show up for each other yeah it's interesting I've had a I mean I really have had a lot of mentors but I've never ever asked anyone to be my mentor I've asked for help or I've said can we grab coffee and like you said the relationship the relationship evolves talk about the the tension between self-actualization and putting a group's needs first you write a lot about this does that TI into what you've spoken about regarding leadership

I mean you're hitting a nerve for me uh you know maslov's hierarchy of needs that's you know self-actualization at the top maav made a bit of a mistake um and which is um if you look at the hierarchy of needs at the bottom the most basic need he articulates is food and shelter um and the third rung up is relationships um now I've never heard of anybody uh Dying by suicide because they were hungry I've heard of people dying by suicide because they were lonely um in other words it seems to be inconsistent with reality

that food and shelter would come number one but not entirely basically being human is a paradox every moment of every single day you and I are both individuals we're ourselves but we're also members of groups we're members of teams churches families whatever it is and are confronted with little and big decisions on a regular basis do I put myself first at the sacrifice of one of the groups or do I put the group first at the sacrifice of myself and people debate this you always put yourself first because you can't help the group unless you're

healthy you always put the group first because they won't be there for you unless you take care of them and the answer is you're both right and you're both wrong it's a paradox and it's difficult and it's messy and so Mas love only considered us as individuals as individuals if we lived like great white sharks 100% correct number one would be food and shelter but as members of groups it's it's different and it's more and it and there's new ones and so it's this constant battle between the two and the thought of living an entire

life to get to the top of a pyramid called self-actualization where we look down at all the UN actualized people seems antisocial how about versus shared actualization which is raising the team raising the company raising the society raising the nation like that to me seems more social and so good leaders I think are doing that they recognize the Paradox they struggle with the Paradox um but at the same time they work tirelessly to bring to bring the group uh that we all rise together to Shared actualization that we all are working to something bigger than

ourselves I saw you on the Diary of coo podcast and you you spoke about people struggling to make friends can you say more about why you think modern society makes it so difficult for people to develop deep meaningful relationships I mean there's a host of reasons um no one reason is the reason I mean like we it's it's easy to blame uh cell phones and social media and they definitely play a role and I think they definitely exaggerate it I don't think they're the sole cause um parenting is a big part of it as well

I mean you and I have gone to restaurants and you look over to the table next door and the parents have slapped an iPhone or an iPad in front of their little children because they don't want noisy kids at dinner they they could have brought colored pencils uh and so parenting is a large part of it as well you you you see this in education reform you talk to teachers or superintendents they're all in favor of Education reform even the students are up for it it's the parents who are often the most resistant because I

want you to reform education I want but just don't experiment on my kids cell phones are the same like schools want to get rid of them it's the parents who are put pressure to say absolutely not you may not so I think it's dramatically exaggerated by the devices but I I also think it's it's it's uh it's it's it's the whole thing it's it's that our our society and this goes back a few decades we've over indexed on rugged individualism right where it's all about you your strength and and we don't value as much team

celebration team effort like we did this not I did this did you ever I don't know if you ever saw Elizabeth Gilbert's um TED Talk but it was magical and it was hugely helpful to me she talks about the concept of genius and then the pre-renaissance a genius was a Damon a spirit that lived in the walls and if you did something great people would say of you you had your Genius your Genius was with you so you couldn't take full credit for your accomplishments and if you failed people would say oh I'm sorry I

guess your Genius wasn't with you and so you couldn't take full credit but you never had to sort of like beat yourself up if it didn't go so well either but at some point in the Renaissance having your genius genius became being the genius and now if you accomplish something great people said of you you are a genius and now you're labeled and straddled with that stress for the rest of your life and the fear of not being the genius anymore becomes part of the identity which I think is part of the failure but I

think what we've done is it's all part of the package of this over indexing on this rugged individualism especially in America where we've hero wise CEOs and we've heroized these individuals who none of them accomplished their stuff by themselves where where but we don't celebrate the team the group as much so I think it's AAL I think it's I think it's part of one of one of the unfortunate side effects of Jack Welch and sort of Milton Freedman economics of the 80s and 90s which we're trying to you know undo over the course of these

years yeah I think it's also a a not uniquely American phenomena but American phenomena and that is we like to think we live in a meritocracy and every anyone can be anything and that's a very nice aspirational bumper sticker but if you believe that the dark side of that is well if it's truly a meritocracy and anyone could do anything then if you don't end up wealthy and in a position of influence you up I mean I know you know this and I know this a lot of our success is not our fault at the

same time when we screw up a lot of that is not your fault but it feels very American to put pressure on people that if you don't end up in a certain position it's on you brother I completely agree I mean I've always tried to live I wouldn't you know I've tried to live with the the formula the notion that success is the zero sum of effort talent and uh um and luck you know and if you and you want to get keep those things somewhat they're imperfect and they sort of go like this but

you know at some point they they lead to one so for example if you win the lottery no effort uh no no Talent uh pure luck not stable um if you work really really hard but you've got no Talent you had no luck you're not going to succeed either and it's just really frustrating and if you have talent that you don't capitalize on Al again and so I think you and I both recognize that we've tried to steer in our our careers in a direction where we're more likely to do better than not like if

I'm really good at math I should probably Point myself in a direction where math is needed and if I'm you know not I maybe not be a football player if I have no athletic ability no matter what my dreams are you know so we try and point ourselves where we have an unfair Advantage because of our natural gifts work hard and and hope that things work out you know you cross your fingers a little bit and and it happens um I'm not the most disciplined person in the world I have seriously bad ADHD which means

I struggle to read books people think I'm really well read I'm not I've written more books than read and and and yet I found ways to navigate these things rather than rather than make them bulls and chains my sense is you also have a pretty authentic voice but it's not easy to manage I've mostly been able to screen out feedback from social media mostly but some of it gets so angry and so vile sometimes it's difficult to screen out what do you do to manage and try and maintain that authenticity without you know getting upset

all the time at all the we get on yeah I work very hard not to be political like I don't give to candidates I don't endorse candidates I won't go to fundraisers I believe and bipartisanship so I've spoken at Republican Congressional offsites I've spoken at Democratic Congressional offsites and I give them the same message because I want I want Unity so if I if I preached bipartisanship and picked a side publicly then I'd be full of it so one part is is is I believe that the work that we do is bigger than politics and

so I I try and play at that level uh um and who I vote for is my business um registered independent and I also in terms of like because the overwhelming pressure especially when anything happens socially the overwhelming pressure from friends and fans alike to weigh in it is sometimes um well high stress high pressure my rule has always been that I will um that I will only say something publicly if I believe that I can be additive and if it takes me a week to come up with something that's additive then I'm going going

to wait a week I I and it's very hard to resist the pressure but I don't want to Simply add to noise simply because a a certain base wants me to join their side my rule is it has to be additive it has to be additive and by the way sometimes I have nothing to say that's additive and so I I will sometimes be conspicuously quiet I I only want to contribute not just not just virtue signal it's funny I actually thought about you because you in an unusual context when all these videos emerged of

JD van saying that the world is being run by these lonely hateful people without children who have cats I'm one of them I thought of you I thought Simon has never been married he doesn't have kids uh I know you really value your relationship with your nieces and nephews and I my sense of you is you have a lot of friends and a good support network um do you get lonely do you feel do you feel like you're judge sometimes for not going the traditional route in terms of relationships and kids 100% um so those

are two different questions I'll deal with the second one first so I have a friend who um was in a very very dysfunctional 16-year relationship he had it was just chaotic and dysfunctional and she's been out of it for a few years but she'll freely admit that she probably should have been in it for a year and she always felt that she could fix him and save him I don't know what it was 16 years of a committed mon monogamous relationship I've never been married um my longest relationship was three years and the world judges

me when I go on dates like women will say to me what's wrong with you some of my friendships are better and closer and more loving than a lot of marriages or monogamous relationships and certainly the life that I live and the friends that I have are better than that relationship but why is it that society says that she's healthier and I'm unhealthy or there she's correct and I'm there's something wrong with me you know when people say why haven't you been married I might say isn't it obvious I haven't met the right person yet

like isn't that obvious you know for whatever reasons I think we we're starting we're in a time now where people are becoming more open to different types of relationships right that people can be in Union without a marriage raise a family without the marriage and Society for the most part says so long as you're good parents and so long as you're doing right by each other and the kids have at it you know you don't necessarily need the religious or the legal document to to to have the family and Society is more open to that

than than it used to be and so I'm hoping that Society starts to recognize that having fulfilling friendships having fulfilling relationships and by the way many people would say the only difference between a close friendship and a marriage is you can have sex with your spouse but you know turns out you can do that with friends too you know it's like you can be very fulfilled so I think you're right I I absolutely have been judged my whole life and the older I get the judgment is even harsher and I and and yes like any

human being I get lonely I get lonely people in relationships get lonely um but yes of course I get lonely but this is why I love my niece and nephew so much is they because I don't have my own kids they have a little bit of my DNA and I get to I get to give love to these aspiring magical little kids not so little anymore and I get to impart everything that I've learned and who I am in a way that a parent can't you know I can get away with stuff as an uncle

that a parent can't which I know contributes to their lives and I I love that and they're both at Camp right now and I miss them desperately you know this you know this when you had kids that profoundly changed everything about about the way you viewed your life and I see how you bring your son with you I I've just watching your Instagram and how you bring your son on your business trips and you bring your son to games and you know you're trying to give him the craziest experiences that he can have and what

an amazing thing that like it's it's it's it's an amazing thing to live an amazing life it's even more amazing to share it and to find amazing however you want but to go on an adventure with a person I find vastly more fulfilling than going on adventure alone we'll be right back I've got to know you a little bit and what's interesting is we're we're actually quite similar in terms of our profession and I think have achieved you more so but achieved certain levels of success and thought leadership whatever the hell you want to call

it but what really struck me was one of the major differences on the on the front end I think people would say oh they're similar doing the same thing the same way you're really about kind of ideas and impacting people and whenever I start to talk about business or we your business ideas are talk about money your eyes glaze over and for me and I'm not I'm I'm not proud of this money is like right up there for me or business or like building successful business that I can monetize and as I've gotten older I've

got much better at sharing it but you're you're really are about the ideas I'm more about the ideas for me are really interesting and I love it but it's a means to I want to build a robust business and and I thought we're just so we're built much differently that way any thoughts I mean you're right you you like the money and the success and the ideas are the means to that and I'm the opposite which is I like the ideas and the business if the ideas are good then then the business will follow as

for me the the the value that other people put on on the things that I put out in the world are proof that the the ideas have value Jesus I sound awful we got to cut this out it's like your app is so much better than mine and that that is such a better way to did you know no and I'll tell you why I disagree with you um is you're honest like if like if investment Banks took their stupid purpose statements down about how they want to help the world or share something or build

economies which is complete nonsense and if CEOs of a lot of companies simply said look we're just here to make cash I want to get rich I want the people around me to get rich these shareholders want to get rich we're going to help them get rich and we're going to try and make a great product for you in order to get rich I'd actually be that's what they're doing we all know that's what they're doing they're just lying to us and saying that other things are more important and so the honesty quite frankly means

that I know what I'm getting and I know how to invest and I know how to I know what level of trust or what barriers or what to believe and so because right now it's so hard to know what to believe because everybody's bullshitting us and so I find your attitude so refreshing and you and I are tortured by different things and we're tortured by the probably the thing that we put second like I'm I'm tortured that I'm not good at the structure stuff and like and you you sort of say you know you're more

successful than me in terms of this thought leadership which I don't even see I mean you're you're your game is so good and I I like I even though when we first met we I remember when we first met and I was like okay it's kind of a little bit grumpy definitely pessimistic where I'm optimistic I like him I respect his work friendship maybe right and the more I've gotten to know you and we don't know each other well but we've hung out a couple times I really I really love spending time with you because

I see us as Yin and yangang and I see us as as actually trying to do the same thing you you have a bigger heart than you give yourself credit and you're you have a lot more warmth and kindness than you give yourself credit I'm probably better at the that I beat myself up about than you know than I realize or that I give myself credit for and I and you and I make each other uncomfortable because my strengths are your weaknesses and your weak and your strengths are my weaknesses and that's the discomfort which

is spending time with you just reminds me what I suck at and I'm sort of having a minor love affair with you and your work like when I see you pum up in my Instagram constantly by the way well done constant to resist is feudal I'm AOL in the 90s conly whatever your algorithm you've nailed it like I I actually had to mute you just for a week just to have a breath yeah you know your stuff is getting better you're clearer and I just I sit quietly and go that's good I love how we

turn my interviews into to me but back to you well I'll share something about me and I I want I want you to respond you said something was really interesting and that is you're kind of a function of what's tortured you I grew up with real economic anxiety so it's just a it's a ghost in a demon or you know a a a monkey on my back I just can't shake I'm always thinking about money I'm very very worried about being poor again and it's hugely motivating but also anxiety driven and that is sort of

my I don't know if to my cross to bear but it plays too big a role in my life um what do you think you it tortures you and where does it come from so what I know about the concept of why this which is this thing this deep-seated inspiring thing inside all of us one of the things that I've learned about it is the thing you give to the world the thing you have that gives you value in the world and to your friends and your relationships is also the thing you need the most

and so it makes perfect sense to me in this balanced equation of this thing you crave is the thing you fear you know um that makes perfect sense to me and that you grew up without means afraid of have it going back there my torture is I really really bad ADHD in a time where it was never diagnosed you know uh I was just considered hyperactive uh my parents by modern standards did a lot of the wrong things I don't fault them for it there was no there was no study done on it you know

they they did the best they could with a hyperactive kid who couldn't focus and didn't do school workor I mean what are you supposed to do do your homework and I didn't do it and what I'm like I don't you know and so you know I I'm I really struggle to build structure and business is nothing more than structure that's what it is and I carry like when I talk to people who are brilliant operators and some of my some CEO entrepreneur friends who just I watch the structures that they've built now are they operating

you know are they changing the world are they contributing to society no but my goodness they built these remarkable and I get so insecure because for them it comes so easily and for me I really struggle with it and I'm to the point where I just stay quiet in those meetings when people like talk about Finance in front of me and they use all the financy jargon or an investment jargon and they just assume I know it all because I'm at a point in my career where I guess others do I literally just have to

go quiet out of sheer embarrassment and so I carry a lot of discomfort that I really don't understand money um I I don't understand it I'm not good at it and any money that I've made was an accident and I see people who are contributing to society less work less hard on the work that they do and I see them make way more and I'm not mad at that but I it makes me feel like come on like up your game you know and I feel insecure in the worst of times in the best of

times I surround myself with people who are really good at it I ask advice I've called you for things that are probably remedial but to me the I they're Advanced and just learn to get over the discomfort of asking for help from people who I fear will judge me because they know so much more than I do yeah I think I think what you just described though having a lack of financial literacy I think you're describing 97% of America and I want to clear like I've been I would say I've been wealthy three times and

the reason why it's been three times is because twice I lost it all because I was not financially smart I could have I could have held on to my wealth and instead I was you know bought into this kind of VC fomented zist of go all in on something and if you really if you persevere and you know never give up I should have given up I should have sold my stock or Diversified instead I was always going like 120% in on things and then some things out of your control um something's in my control

I just screwed up but you know when the do bomb implosion happened I got broke again when the great financial recession came along because I hadn't been smart or Diversified I got broke again and I think some of the I hear some embarrassment or self-consciousness in your voice I think it's especially prevalent among men because they assume if you're successful that you're not really successful in America as a man unless you're financially extraordinarily successful and that you just accidentally wake wake up and get money right we're supposed to be you know we're supposed to wake

up and accidentally have you know a 5:00 shadow a deep voice a desire to procreate and be just really good at money otherwise we're really not meant do you think that in America I wonder if one of the things that creates loneliness among men is that we're not we're so evaluated now I think women are so disproportionately evaluated on their Aesthetics but at the same time men are so disproportionately evaluated on their professional and financial viability do you think it creates more separation and loneliness that men don't have these kind of conversations or they feel

embarrassed to have these conversations that's such a good question right um you know sort of as you so talked about which is you know what are people posting on Instagram all social media is marketing and if you're not marketing you're not using it right like whether you're marketing yourself or something it's that's just what it is all social media is marketing and so it's fun to watch as you said sort of how people Market themselves so our how women Market themselves tend to skew Beauty you know and how men Market themelves tends to skew wealth

you know uh standing in front of the Ferrari the rented Ferrari uh and I think you're I think you're right and and just like we and there's a and to your point there's a lot of conversation about the dangers of social media for women about creating unrealistic expectations of Beauty for especially for young girls and yet there's no conversation about the unhealthiness of social media creating unhealthy the expectations for young men and boys we don't have that conversation at all I think you're 100% right and you and I have both talked about this you know

the dangers of of a of a lonely man you know you you know show me go to the Middle East with you know 25% unemployment um in a shame based society you're a virgin and you're living at home you know show me show me uh somebody who's committed a a mass homicide and I'll show you somebody that's generally a lonely man just as we wrap up here I've had this whole WAP about if there's one enduring skill that you'd want to ble to your children it would be storytelling that is the key to success across

almost every industry a real success at the end of the day you and I make a living storytelling and you're you're outstanding at it that you know I'm one of the I don't know 30 million people that saw your kind of Ted Talk that sort of I don't know if it made you famous but definitely took it to a new level without trying to be trying to be as immodest as possible what have you done and what are your practices and hacks such that you can maintain uh sort of your Elite you know Elite athlete

status as a Storyteller thank you for that um can I tell a story don't I'll be here all week try to ve it was a former under Secretary of Defense who was giving a speech at a large conference thousand people whatever and while he's giving his remarks he takes a sip of from his coffee that he's holding in the Styrofoam cup and he smiles and he interrupt his own presentation and he says you know last year I spoke at this exact same conference except last year I was still the under secretary and last year they

flew me here business class there was a somebody waiting for me at the airport to take me to the hotel I got to the hotel somebody had already checked me in they just gave me my key I came down in the morning there was somebody waiting for me in the lobby they brought me to the same venue they took me in the back entrance they took me into the green room and they handed me a cup of coffee in a beautiful ceramic cup he says I'm no longer the secretary I flew her coach I took

a taxi to the hotel I checked myself in this morning I came down and took another taxi to the venue I came through the front entrance found my way backstage and when I asked somebody do you have any coffee they pointed to the coffee machine in the corner and I poured myself a cup of coffee in this here Styrofoam cup he says the lesson is the ceramic cup was never meant for me I deserve a styrofoam cup I've tried to remember that that it's okay to enjoy the ceramic cups it's okay to uh um think

about the ceramic cups want ceramic cups but at the end of the day remember that it's not being given to me it's giving to the position I held in this moment and when I move on they'll just give it to the next person it was never meant for me and I think what that does is two things is it reminds me where I come from what I'm entitled to and it also helps me live in absolute gratitude that anything that I get all the ceramic cups I get to enjoy I am grateful for every one

of them and think I deserve none of them and so uh when you ask me sort of like what helps me stay true as a Storyteller I I think it's it's very simple which is I don't view myself as an expert I view myself as a student I genuinely think of myself as an idiot I'm just more comfortable with the idea of admitting it these days and I really like learning and so the stories I tell are not actually for your benefit the stories I tell are to help me make sense of the world and

the stories I tell help me understand complex things and if I'm going to explain something to you the best way I know how to do it is by telling the story that helped me understand it last question in five years kind of first things that come to your mind if you're sitting here in 5 years and the following one or two things had happened to you and that was success what are those things what boxes are you still looking to check I'm I'm I'm very sorry I kind answer the question I'm living proof that having

a plan means nothing my entire career was I would never wanted to be a public speaker I never wanted to write a single book let alone five like nothing I've done in my career was in the plan my plan was thrown out ages ago I had one it didn't go that way and so the the the to me the Folly of a plan it's like it's like planning how many miles you it's like planning which Highway you're going to take and how many miles you want to drive per day but not knowing the destination it's

like figuring out these way points like in you know in 3 days you know what city will you be at if you're driving cross country it's like but which direction am I going in and my focus tends to be so far over the horizon to a vision an unrealizable idealism idealistic vision and the path that I take I'm agnostic and so you asking me to tell you like what the Waypoint will be I could tell you something and I can guarantee you it won't happen so I'm just trying to find the the most efficient and

fun path to that crazy far away place that I know I'll never get to and and that's unnerving and more fun wasn't it Eisen hour that said plans are useless but planning is invaluable and I think that's true I think that's true I believe in backup plans I believe in alternative rots like if this one's blocked I'm going to go that direction for my career you know I believe in going slowly in the right direction versus speeding off on the wrong direction so you know when companies talk about growth at all costs I'm like for

what reason you know and I'm okay knowing that other people are driving faster than me because I know at some point they'll hit a road not that I'm in competing against them I just know this from experience as when young in my career I used to go to a guy and he he he he was very successful he did similar things as me he made a ton of money I made none and he would say stupid like I'm not getting out of bed for more than $25,000 I won't even get out of bed you know

and I was like oh I do stuff for free all the time because I like really want to like talk to somebody or meet somebody or sounds like fun and he basically spent most of the time I went to him for advice calling me stupid well I can guarantee you've never heard of him and my career has far surpassed him and and not a competition and there's no gloating the the the for me the lesson is I'd rather play the slow steady game than the first game where I can show off to everybody um and

and and understand how I think about my career no matter how much success I have however you want to Define it I always think I'm still at the tip of the iceberg because there's so much more work to do and I think focusing on what's beneath the ocean I think keeps you humble and keeps you focused on all the work that has to be done but you're asking me to tell you what what how much iceberg is going to be above the ocean and I couldn't tell you Simon cnnic is an international speaker and bestselling

author of the books start with why the infinite game and find your why he's also the founder of the optimism company which provides programs for leadership development he joins us from his home in Los Angeles Simon I always enjoy spending time with you we are so you're the most different person I know that is the same person and I think that's what I enjoy so much about spending time with you is is we're so similar from exterior standpoint and you just come at stuff from such a different perspective was me and it really illuminates you

just pointed something out to me that it was sort of puncturing in that is sometimes I think when I'm advising people and I draw my own experiences in I think sometimes I'm boasting rather than just helping and I want to be more uh cognizant of that anyways brother it's always great to Great to speak to you and congrats on everything thanks and and I'm loving getting to know you I really am you know you you snuck up on me go on I I when I see your everywhere legit I smile like a proud parent I'm

like yeah man go you know and I just I'm really I I can't wait to come back to London and spend more time with you but properly I appreciate that