Eric Weinstein - Are We On The Brink Of A Revolution? (4K)

when we spoke at the start of the year I said it was way too close to November to switch anybody out turns out that I was wrong beginner's luck you said what are the odds that Joe Biden has a debilitating event between now and November including death so he runs a one in 20 chance of dying in any given year or above that I don't think you know whether he's even going to make it to November debilitating event could have been a debilitating public event I purposefully left it vague and I didn't say the other

part of it which I now feel comfortable saying which is I don't I don't know whether I don't know whether Donald Trump will be allowed to become president what do you mean by that I think that there's a remarkable story and we're in a a funny game which is are we allowed to say what that story is because to say it to analyze it to name it is to bring it uh into view I think we don't understand why the censorship is behaving the way it is we don't understand why it's in the shadows we

don't understand why our news is acting in a bizarre fashion so let's just set the stage given that that was in February um there is something that I think Mike Benz has just referred to as the rules-based international order it's an interlocking series of agreements tacit understandings explicit understandings clandestine understandings about how the most important structures keep the world free of war and keep markets open and there has been a system in place whether understood explicitly or um behind the scenes or implicitly it says that the purpose of the two American parties is to prune

the field of populist candidates so that whatever two candidates uh exist in a Faceoff are both acceptable to that world order so what you're trying to do from the point point of view let's take it from the point of view of let's say the state department the intelligence Community the defense department and um major corporations that are have to do with uh international issues from arms trade to oh I don't know food they have a series of agreements that are fragile and could be overturned if a president entered the Oval Office who didn't agree with

them and the mood of the country was why do we pay taxes into these structures why are we hamstrung why aren't we a free people so what the two parties would do is that they would run primaries you have populist candidates and you'd pre-commit the populist candidates to support the candidates who won the primaries as long as that took place and you had two candidates that were both acceptable to the international order that is that they aren't going to rethink NAFTA or NATO or what have you we called that democracy and so democracy was the

illusion of choice what what's called magician's choice where the choice is not actually you know pick a card any card but somehow the magician makes sure that the card that you pick is the one that he knows uh in that situation you have magician's choice in the primaries and then you'd have the duopoly field two candidates either of which was acceptable and you could actually afford to hold an election and the populists would vote and that way the international order wasn't put at risk every four years because you can't have alliances that are subject to

the whim of um the people in pleb asites so under that structure everything was going fine until 2016 and then the first candidate ever to not hold um any position in the military nor position in government uh in the history of the Republic to enter the Oval Office Donald Trump broke through the primary structure so then there was a full court press okay we only have one candidate that's acceptable to the international order Donald Trump will be under um constant pressure that he's a loser he's a wild man he's an idiot and and he's under

control of the Russians and then he was going to be you know a 20 to1 Underdog and then he wins and there was no precedent for this they learned their lesson you cannot afford to have candidates who are not acceptable to the international order and continue to have these alliances this is an unsolved problem so I don't have a particular dog in this fight I one believe in democracy I also believe in international agreements and it is the job of the state department the intelligence community and the defense department to bring this problem in front

of the American people and say we have a problem you don't know everything that's going on and if you start voting in populist candidates you're going to end up knocking out loadbearing walls that you don't understand but Trump was in office for four years did he turn the entire table upside down he risked doing that same all you remember that there was this uncomfortable uh accomodation given to the Central Intelligence Agency at the beginning of his actual term there was a question about um was he going to question the I have a very different point

of view than most of my friends uh who are also you know at least nominally Democrats which is it was a very immoral thing that was done to him he was asked the question will you pre-commit that you will accept the results of an election now if you were going to rig an election you would ask somebody that to begin with and that's part of the game and he says well you know you know we'll see so you have this very strange thing going on where democracy is the greatest threat to democracy Now how can

that be it's two different concepts of democracy one concept of democracy is the will of the people you hold pites and even if you do it with an electoral college or political parties the idea is that the people are you know by and of and for the people the other idea of democracy is that democracy is about institutions that sprang from democracy Once Upon a Time and that those institutions have to be kept strong those are two completely different concepts that are overloaded to the same word under that circumstance we have a a paradox which

is how do we keep the electorate from overturning the you know the type a democracy from overturning the type B democracy and that's the unsolved problem that they will not bring in front of the people so what you have is a situation in which I believe that there are many people in Washington DC who think that Donald Trump cannot become president because he can now go For Broke he's also not going to try to run for reelection he's relatively unconstrained he's wealthy he's uh he's learned how to play a lot of these games and maybe

got a little bit of an ax to grind as well after the last six years no kidding and he's a wild card you know there are three people who are doing amazing versions of the drunken body boxing game Kanye who's probably uh the first one to really fail Elon and Donald Trump and all three of them tried to do something where you couldn't pin them down you couldn't figure out like what they were going to do next and that's what the order is keep keeps trying to do like will you commit to this will you

say this will you mouth these words and none of these people would play the game and I I find this all you ever see Emanuel Augustus or this boxer who actually you know I think Floyd uh Mayweather said was his his toughest opponent because he just he wouldn't fight in the style that anyone could recognize probably most unpredictable yeah and the most entertaining boxer I've ever seen in my life I mean just check out any highlight reel and you won't even believe this is real it doesn't seem possible so that's what Donald Trump is he's

a guy who's got formulas that confuse people like Sam Harris you know Sam and I have been debating this for years I think that Trump is an incredibly intelligent man and that there's incredible method in his tweets uh of old you can just you could put them into a data set and you say that there are five or six different types of tweets and that the left Falls for every one of them every time so in the situation you have a question how is it that Donald Trump and RFK Jr cannot possibly reach the Oval

Office and we have to have a candidate who is pre- subscribed to perpetuating these inst institutions these agreements and these orders and there's only one out of three uh who who has that character and that person is not w a primary right now we have no idea who's running the United States of America um I just came here in at Tesla and I did not steer once and I would say America is in full self-driving mode and we don't know what the AI is that's running the Oval Office and that's really bizarre given that we

have something like six minutes to make a decision about nule launches uh we have no idea what the United States government in the executive branch actually is but it can't be Joe Biden every time it seems that an election has happened over the last decade or so it's always being this one is different this is the most important this is the most important is there something different about the one that we're about to go into how how should we think about this election as World War II unraveling the order that has produced the illusion of

Peace for this length of time imagine that you were let's say in the 2000s that you had this thing called the Great moderation there was a story that we had finally banished volatility from the markets none of that was true what you were doing was you were going farther and farther into a regime without understanding that sooner or later the D Jenga tower has to collapse the the order that was put in place at the end of World War II None of its architect are still alive very few pieces of information were passed down about

what it actually is or how it functions because it's secret and I think what you can say is that um we are now living on the fumes built from that Victory uh that is what is unraveling you're about to head towards a multi-polar world where the game theory in a in a diotic uh game of two players doesn't look remotely like the game theory in a in a five or 10 player game so kamla is essentially the youngest Boomer possible and she's tied to the last silent generation president will ever have which was a bizarre

thing to begin with and she's pre-committed to trying to continue that order uh in the guise of a alternatively woke Wall Street friendly Indian black folksy I I don't even know what she is to quote the great Chris Williamson she's a meme of a meme of meme uh that was from our last talk and I I would say this is probably the most insane election we've ever seen by by a comfortable margin I would say that there's no one in second place uh I can't think of another election that is even close to this bizarre

including the attempted assassination on Donald Trump yeah the there's so many things all coalescing at the same time from what's happening with the media to AI to discontent to fake news and cheap fakes and construed constructed did Che sorry fake news was a fake story if you look at the um Google Trends fake news was a tiny story during the 2016 cycle that blew up immediately afterwards it was the placeholder as the intelligence Community or the blob figured out what it was going to do next to try to take control of the international order you

have to realize that that's the first real surprise in presidential history where they lost control of the process well I've got a surprise for you I told you not to watch this before we get to do this uh I actually listened did you well it's Weir I told you not to do I know it's like pouring sugar on a picnic to keep ants away okay okay so uh for the people who haven't seen it um we'll just do a quick re recap MSNBC was exposed today for yet another set of Lies they deceptively edited together

this video of different Joe Rogan comments to make it appear that he was singing the Praises of kamla Harris he's going to win no she's not she can win she is a strong woman she is uh a person who served overseas twice she in a medical unit so she was a congresswoman for8 years yeah she is a person of color she's everything you want she's GNA win no she's not she can win they just want no Trump no matter what what do you make of that that's the most Brazen cutting together of something that millions

of people have seen they don't really whatever it is is is not really trying to fool you it's trying to instruct you you you're allowed to see the truth they can make it difficult to find the truth but it's hard to shut up Joe Rogan they've settled for something else which is think about MSNBC and CNN the New York Times The Washington Post the Los Angeles Times Reuters AP Etc as a set of instructions for how to keep your job you're you're allowed to disagree we'll set the boundaries of the disagreement we'll set the topics

of the disagreement you may not even watch any of these things but we'll make sure that it filters through to the people that you are watching so that they're outraged and you're given a choice you can choose to understand whatever you want and you can choose to say whatever you want but if you say what you understand to be true you can know what the consequences are you may lose your marriage you may lose your job you may lose your friends and so in essence we all know that um if you question the war in

Ukraine or if you uh say look I detest Donald Trump but I'm voting for him because what's going on in the Democratic party is Unholy and insane you're signing up for whatever Thanksgiving dinner um we have planned for you we're talking to your uncle we're talking to your spouse and and in essence this is a lot like Caligula installing his horse as a senator no one's fooled that the horse is an ordinary human Senator the choice is do you wish to say something in of the news this episode is brought to you by element for

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modern wisdom that's drink LM nt.com slash modern wisdom I'd been trying to find this term for a while that I'd learned through film critics online uh people like critical drinkers a swear Scottish critic uh and retroactive continuity red yeah I but I didn't know what retroactive I didn't know that that's what roning I just knew it as rcon so retroactive continuity is a literary device in which facts in the world of a fictional work that have been established through the narrative itself are adjusted ignored supplemented or contradicted by subsequently published work that recontextualizes or breaks

continuity with the former so the question is is is what we're seeing just the star war Cinematic Universe yeah equivalent yeah this is this is Sherlock Holmes and and Professor Mor AR uh where falls off a ledge and yet here he is again um it's every episode of South Park when Kenny's died so it's very important to understand the back of house in everything that you're doing so you know when you go to a hotel um there's an entirely secondary structure of floors elevators entrances cafes that are necessary to support the front of house uh

which is the illusion of uh the hotel that you're staying in and the same thing is true for screenwriting and the creative arts I I think everyone should for example read save the cat uh it's a book on screenwriting that points out that films aren't broken into scenes so much as they're broken into beats there about 40 beats in a film and the Beats have names and so if you read this book you'll one one is called the bad guys close in and another beat is called all hope is lost and these are Main Stays

and your programmed client side at a sub a subliminal level to be able to follow a film based on the idea that your brain is already tooled uh to absorb this stuff there's a concept called spackle in Hollywood where it costs a couple of lines to make something that makes no sense makes sense I think it's referenced in thank you for smoking where they're smoking in space and there's an issue with product placement uh how does it make sense to have cigarette smoking in space after sex you you know whatever oh it'll cost us two

lines of spackle and so every every once in a while the craft pokes through and so this is the back retcon is a back of house concept and the the issue again really comes back to professional wrestling the smark is a smart Mark a person who is being duped and agrees to be duped but has a metacognitive perch from which to watch his or her own deception so you're both a consumer of the story like when you go to a movie you know it's fictional and you don't sit there saying this is such BS you

know the old thing I used to say is you don't scream don't you understand it's just photons projected on a wall um we are complicit in our own deception otherwise we'll never be seduced and there's nothing more wonderful than a than a a seduction to which we are willing and eager this is an unwanted seduction this is coercive this is based on a lot of carrot being taken away and more or Les less all all of what you have is stick it's strange in a world where everything that everybody does and says on the Internet

is permanently recorded on some version of a blockchain that's kept in screenshots even if it's not actually even if it then gets deleted from Twitter uh it just seems odd to me that there is so much retconning of this you spoke about managed reality sure last time uh you know a good example a nice simple example of this is CA Harris was never called the bordar like we have they they went back and changed the old articles from three years ago here's my question when did you wake up to this because in my situ Peter

teal who I used to work for uh said this to me like Eric how did you get there earlier and I said well I was in the University system and academics has a faster Glide path into the ground than everything else you could see it there in the 1980s I don't know I think it it it has taken a little bit of time um maybe moving to America seeing these things closer up has been part of it uh I have a strong non-c conspiratorial disposition so I will always attribute to incompetence or negligence or fear

of losing your job cowardice uh you're running the packet so there's the Lefty inovation packet and it's something that you're sort of obligated to run um if you're going to be a member in good standing of the American left so one part of it would say that correlation does not imply causation uh data is not the plural of anecdote uh never explain by malice uh what can be understood through incompetence there's a large sequence of things that you're expected to say if you want the pat on the back from your colleagues a random walk down

Wall Street nobody can beat the market you you know that there are rich people Three Doors Down who got that that way from investing but they're simply lucky idiots uh all of these things you're expected to run if you're part of the expert class so that the expert class doesn't turn on their masters and what it is you see I was about to do the double copula is is I always do that um what it is in my opinion um I'm gonna have to do it I can't can't get out of it what it is

is a uh a collection of safeties so that you don't use the tools of data let's say on your Masters and attempt to convict them give an example uh for example let's imagine that you have a high number of deaths around a vaccine or injuries uh that could lead to questions about under what re what legal regime the vaccine manufacturers achieved immunity and so you say oh no no no that's just uh correlation does not imply causation uh of course there are going to be runs in poker of course there are going to be clusters

of data uh this is what being Fooled by Randomness is all about so if you think about what those things how they function inside of your mind they tend to keep you from seeking remedies you're not going to put somebody in jail if you believe all these things you're not going to go poking into the intelligence Community if if if a conspiracy theorist makes you think about a lunatic you're not a lunatic you're a grown-up it's first order sophistication did you ever see a film called Victor Victoria no Victor Victoria is the I think the

tagline on the poster was the story of a woman playing a man playing a woman and so it was a female impersonator who was actually Julie Andrews right right now if you saw Victor behind Victoria you certainly saw one level deep that's one level of counterintuition and most people when they get to one level of counterintuition stop Pat themselves on the back and at least they're not like the poor fools who only see Victoria because Victoria you know is the female being impersonated but what happens if you see Sally and let's imagine Sally is the

person playing Victor playing Victoria now you've got a problem which is you say that's a woman so everybody who sees Victor says you poor bastard you are fooled and Reddit is great for this by the way the average Reddit post is ha I see through that thing that you're taken in by but have fun with it you know it's a superiority contest contest at one at first order counterintuition so at first order counter counterintuition conspiracy theorists are losers in their mother's basement who posited A New World Order where the Flat Earth Society of lizard people

controls the cosmos and the funny part about it is the Atlantic Council exists what's that well that would be Sally playing Victor playing Victoria I mean in other words of course there are conspiracies everywhere we found a million conspiracies I could tell you you know various operations Operation Condor uh operation uh sea spray where that we sprayed bacteria on all of San Francisco we all know about the Tuskegee medical experiment operation Northwoods operation mockberg um Operation Ajax in Chile we know that conspiracies are the lifeblood of the world every trade group is a conspiracy the

the Twitter fals are about conspiracy so we're we're living in a world hopefully you've achieved a point in your life where you've been invited to many conspiracies and if you haven't I'm really sorry but they're everywhere now what is a conspiracy theorist it's somebody trying to figure out what these things are from outside that's what you've got to stop and how do you do this well there are a lot of bad conspiracy theorists there are a lot of losers and a lot of morons and a lot of idiots who imagine that lizard people are controlling

everything and so you try to make it look like the people who well let me give you an example the moonlanding and the JFK assassination are not in the same category it's quite probable that something funny is going on around the JFK assassination and it's highly improbable that the mood Landings are fake you know tww flight 800 seems very strange or what is like 300 missing man pads from the Afghan theater a bunch of people saw something streaking up to a plane and the explanation doesn't exactly add up now you have a problem like let's

you know the famous one that I like which is just so dangerous it's funny you can just watch the radio activity if you can agree that nothing like building Seven's collapse has ever happened in Structural Engineering you can say well that is interesting it's just interesting that no building has ever collapsed like that no steel building of this height you know from from flame whatever and the instant you say that some member of a group of 10 friends will say oh yeah I bet it was a bunch of thermite placed by Israelis right Einstein and

you're you're thinking why wow gosh that seems like a really high penalty to pay for just noticing no building has ever collapsed like that I'm not saying I I don't believe that so it's this kind of patent match of any type of skepticism with a slippery slope down to the most extreme conspiracy and and that's and yeah you're just in error you're you took first order counterintuition so that you became superior to the Flat Earth Society but you're not the guy who's going to figure out the Iran Contra Scandal because if I told you the

Iran Contra Scandal it doesn't matter how many documents you look at you'll still never believe that that was true it's so insane this roning this uh Mass lighting gas lighting at global scale MH it is mind-blowing to me that this is done on the internet when everything is held together why because the the entire internet is obsessed with pointing out hypocrisy if no no no no no no it's not the entire internet a large portion of very vocal a large portion of very small accounts a large portion of right of Center accounts almost no one

in what I considered my world does anything remotely like this in other words if if you walk into a physics department good luck finding a Republican and good luck finding anybody who will believe almost anything that you tell them or or or will do so publicly I took a tour through the East Coast the corridor of great universities uh from Massachusetts down to Philadelphia and you know I have many friends and colleagues in this departments and they'd take me into their offices and they'd all close the door and they'd say you have no idea how

bad it is here and these are mathematicians and physicists and they are living in a world in which it is simply too dangerous to descent to ask questions we'll get back to talking to Eric in one minute but first I need to tell you about nomatic I know what you're thinking what you thinking is what backpack does Eric Weinstein use let me tell you it's the nomatic 20 L travel pack and the reason he uses it is because it's the best backpack on the planet I use it all of the team use it literally everybody

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below or heading to nomatic decomodern wisdom and using the code mw20 a checkout that's Nom matic.com wisdom and mw20 a checkout I did some research yeah tech company employee donations to midterm candidates by party well over 90% in favor of democrat there is a 33% gap between Republicans and Democrats in self-described party affiliations of us journalists in 2022 and there was this recent Google Google furor a couple they're being popped for Monopoly unfair competition practices on top of are they putting their finger on the scale and editorializing if you search for Donald Trump's name you

get Negative stories about Donald Trump and positive stories about CA Harris if you search CA Harris's name you just get positive stories about Camala Harris okay but how how many how many let let me let me keep let me keep going so I don't think I'm not saying that Google isn't but I don't think that Google needs to editorialize the search results if there is such an unbalanced original content pull that they're pulling from if you have this huge sway in terms of tech if you have this huge sway in terms of the people that

are writing the articles I don't think you need Google to put their finger on the pulse you're already it's 90% in One Direction if you take from that pool representatively it's going to move in that direction so that you've you've now once again um evidence the same basic idea which is we'll just chalk it up to emergence these are all emergent effects that way you never have to pause it intent you never have to say that there's a finger on the scale great you're out of it well done that's insane Chris pulled the rip cord

and got out of it so here's the thing that I thought that was really interesting wa wait wait wait but I want to understand something how do you think you get to these levels of bias among employees do you think that something about being in Tech makes you democrat friendly I think my working hypothesis is that it's carders that say more in order to keep your job you need to tow the party line and the party line is somehow dictated top down not bottom up maybe it's emerging from the Great Society programs of the 1960s

maybe the idea that the hiring practices not being allowed to discriminate in various ways the interpretation through the courts means that the HR departments uh have to do things that make it impossible to be uh almost impossible to be a vocal Republican in a in a large workplace so one of the interesting things about that graph the 33% gap between uh Democrats and Republicans if you go to about 1970 is when it really begins to diverge but what you also see is that uh self-described Independence move at almost the exact same rate as Republicans going

down so get a bit of a gain for Democrats a large loss for republicans and also a gain for independent so how many of these people are uh Republicans masquerading his independence when they do the self-report what what if this gets picked up by my colleagues this is Timor kanan's theory of preference falsification that you have two sets of preferences you have the preferences that you keep at home uh and the preferences that you show the world and this is the engine of Revolution because there's always one guy like a James deore working at Google

who's so autistic that he's going to um Spectrum himself right out of the workplace uh and say what he actually thinks doesn't see the social Moray that he's supposed to adhere to and this is why what happened you know one one of the gifts of the chescos in Romania is that they gave us this amazing footage of their undoing and Nikolai chesu is at a rally uh in Bucharest and he's on you know whatever balcony and he's saying his stuff and there's some noise in the back like what's that noise it keeps going somehow the

noise starts growing louder and people are discontent like they're just not willing to lie anymore and each person emboldens those around them and you see the Revolution spread like a tumor did you read that uncommon knowledge article that I mentioned the Ben Hunt yes yeah yeah uh I thought that was very interesting I live this right I mean like if you look at my kayf AR it's 2011 because I'm worried that professional wrestling is going to determine the presidency um if you look at my article uh on the National Science Foundation National Academy of Science

conspiring against American scientists that's from the early 2000s I was cancelled in the early 1990s for pointing this out long before being cancelled was cool the this is is I don't know what to call it it's like an ether in which we we swim it's all around it's it's water to fish that we can't see our entire lives are bathed in this and you know you've always had Howard Zin types let's say on the left who are willing to point to to to issues and your parents would say well you know be very careful with

that book because if you do know the truth you can't particip ipate in polite Society if you're not part of the intelligence Community or part of the inside group and it's the idea is that the truth can be made unfit so that to understand the world is to remove yourself from the chessboard thinking about the whether it's finger on scale editorially whether it's drawing from a pool which is disproportionately represented from one ideology or another uh everybody is saying I don't know what's going to happen in November but it's going to be a nailbiter and

it does make me think well given that we have what appears to be a a disproportionate amount of sort of mainstream accessibility to stories leaning in One Direction positively as opposed to in another I wonder what would have happened had that not been the case it makes a nailbiter actually seem kind of like an interesting who who are these people who know all this stuff why am I out of this club everybody knows stuff about what's happening in November I mean the last time I was on the program I said it's a million years um

Donald Trump was almost killed by an AR-15 Joe Biden has been suffering with some level of dementia that's been progressing through his entire term in office when was the last time you saw MSNBC um with five geriatric neurolog ologists watching his gate his speech and telling you their professional opinions from publicly available data you're in the magic show baby and the funny part about it is the reason I don't want to hybridize with anyone else is that responsible conspiracy theorizing is very much an adult activity responsible conspiracy theorizing is not based on saying well I've

I've got this certainty over here and I've lost it because I know I'm being lied too so I've I can tell you exactly what is going on it's the lizard people responsible conspiracy theorizing says I know that the story makes sense and I know that I don't know how to correct it but you know Naval ravikant once pushed me to do a a Twitter thread called The Invisible world is first discovered in the visible world's failure to close right so the idea is we find out that there's a neutrino because a neutron has a certain

amount of energy and a proton and electron into which it decay doesn't have the same amount of energy so something was lost so you know there was a hypothesis due to both Po and firmy that there must be some particle that is diabolically neutral undetectable by almost any means possible that is carrying away this extra energy and so the idea is the visible world that is the charged particles or the the neutron which you could detect that world didn't close therefore there had to be something else well you know when K goes from being incredibly

unpopular to the loved candidate with no primary the visible world just failed to close the idea that nobody ever convenes a bunch of geriatric neurologists to analyze Joe Biden is the visible World failing to close this is the origin of anti-in these are all anti-in events and you can measure the control of Journalism by its desire to report on what everybody wants reported and is absolutely pathologically uninteresting not to the journalists but to the editors who tell the journalists what can and cannot be featured in print how do you think this is being uh Justified

to and by the people inside well I think I think I tried to come at that as frontally as anyone as you've ever heard what if let's just steal man their perspective rather than making them the evil baddies twlling their twirling their mustaches what if the idea is that an outbreak of Truth and democracy would destroy NATO and the world order let's imagine that that would undo the markets that would spread nukes you know what what happens if if ending uh the control of social media would mean that weaponized anti tracks PL plans could be

spread frictionlessly I if four amino acids lead to worldwide lockdowns the amount of Leverage in this system should frighten you at the same time that the shadowy figures are frightening you and the problem with the heterodox is like we mentioned Ben Hunt I think I've spoken to him once or twice and what's his famous tagline something like burning all the F down I didn't know that okay well this is part of the problem when you wake up and you realize that your entire life is is uh embedded in a lie manage reality managed reality you

say I don't want to live in managed reality man it's like are you crazy I don't want to live in managed reality if it's badly managed but I can't live in direct reality either because maybe that's just too dangerous and so you know I I I highly recommend that everyone learn the lesson of the United States versus the progressive which is a a court case that would be famous but for the fact that we're determined to forget it it was a strand effect case where a magazine decided that it would be an excellent idea to

point out that there are no nuclear secrets and they said why don't we get I think his name was Howard Borland a reporter who had no physic background to figure out the redacted portions of the uh Stannis ulam Edward Teller paper that had been deglass Declassified but redacted that explained how you get a chemical reaction to start a fision reaction as the Detonator for a fusion reaction and so he figured it out they had charted the information it was scattered throughout libraries do you know this you don't know no no no no this story is

great oh mind God you need need a little bit more power in you get that in nuclear next time TOA Dynamite um there were two cases in the 1970s one at Princeton and one at the progressive magazine I probably should have done the Princeton one first there was a guy named I think it was like John Aristotle who was a he was the Princeton mascot like the tiger okay illustrious and he was a shitty shitty physics student and he said you know what I'm going to use the fact that I'm a shitty physics student like

below average at at you know Princeton's like one of the greatest physics Departments of all time and he said I'm going to approach Freeman Dyson at The Institute for advanced study and see whether I can work out how to make a fision bomb that would actually work so Freeman Dyson said I will give you no information uh that is classified but I will tell you whether whatever you come up with will work or not the guy did it and as a result he turned it in that is not be found in the Princeton archives where

all the junior thesis are kept and Page 20 of it I believe is redacted because it was a working design for a fision bomb and then the much more dangerous one was the progressive magazine versus the United States where the United States do you know about the atomic uh energy acts of 1946 and 54 perhaps surprisingly no welcome to my world um there is a category called restricted data that is almost never discussed which is the only place in law where if you and I were to work at a table at a cafe and I

were to show you something that could influence nuclear weaponry the government doesn't need to classify it it is born secret the instant my pen touches the paper and writes it down how is it defined anything that impinges on on nuclear weapons including just PL information so you don't have a cute clearance I don't have aute clearance we don't work for the government simp all we're doing is physics wow yeah and this has been around since I don't know 4654 it's the only place in law it's never been tested in courts and if you couple that

to the 1917 Espionage Act which had carries capital punishment I believe that it is illegal to seek information at a q level if you don't have an access to it so there is a question which is if you're any good at physics are you potentially committing a capital crime by advancing the field if it could influence nuclear weapons we have no idea whether it would be found constitutional but what happened was when the progressive magazine showed that at least a reporter through basically archaeology in like Los Alamos library and things um could find this and

and put it together then the only thing keeping the proliferation of weapons is the difficulty of producing file nuclear material there is no nuclear secret per se you can say what it is you've got a chemical sphere that implodes radioactive material that reaches critical mass you have a fision explosion and now the problem is you're using a nuclear bomb like here sh Nagasaki level bomb as just the Detonator trigger yeah so it's going to rip apart this casing how do you keep it from um destroying the mechanism that's supposed to do the fusing well the

only thing faster than the other particles is light you've got to use light from this reflector to actually do the fusion in the final stage wow and that's what he figured out now the reason you haven't heard about this is that we've been undoing the Strand effect we've been making physics boring physics isn't interesting physics isn't scary we've got tons of I don't know Chinese Iranians people from all over the world studying irrelevant theories that aren't going to go boom how did that happened we don't know and I don't know whether you've seen the Mark

Andre and Ben horvitz video where they're talking about their visit to the White House in AI tell me I really wish we were doing this over negronis or old Fashions um I'm sure that we could get one ordered wa no no that too Rogan okay all right all right all right um we'll just stick to experimental neut tropics and high doses of caffeine fantastic yeah um so they're they're doing a podcast and they say that well you they met with the white house and there's this question about should we regulate AI now I don't know

if you've been you undoubtedly you haven't but you might have talked to somebody who's really been through the Transformer architecture and the attention mechanism it's basically just linear algebra and it's not very sophisticated linear algebra so they said Well you Can't Ban math and the White House said oh yes we can we did it we've banned entire regions of theoretical physics and they said oh what so we don't know what that means we don't know the most narrow reading of that is is that you've bu you've ban some kinds of nuclear physics I going to

say you're the physicist if you were to make a couple of bets what do you think that they're talking about this is the big question we don't know whether that we're talking about the stagnation of theoretical physics or just Nuclear Physics you're okay with speculating let's speculate um I'll do the decision tree one possibility is that they're simply saying that they made Nuclear Physics very very difficult to do and that has to do with not very sexy physics the physics of protons and neutrons and CLE so that Branch exists the other Branch says um we

used String Theory to block actual progress in theoretical physics and derailed an entire field at least in public I can see where this is going well I'm I'm trying to say I didn't put um Mark and Ben up to this podcast you go go take a look at that footage and you tell me what they're talking about but it draws a very interesting line between what we were talking about last time which is this seeming theoretical dead end which everybody has been obsessed by but before we get to that let me point something out you

have never heard the phrase deemed export no so you've never heard of restricted data you've never heard of deemed export you've never heard of United States versus Progressive you've never heard of the Princeton mascot all of these things can be looked up these are all in a memory hole the deemed export is information that is like a sensitive gyroscope for um you know a targeting uh system for for a weapon you can't give sensitive centrifuges and gyroscopes to Rogue regimes like North Korea or Iran deemed export is the information equivalent of it you cannot share

that theory or that Insight it's the extension to intellectual matters to ideas there are ideas you're not allowed to share with foreigners and my point is you don't know about any of this stuff how is it then that you immediately say well surely we're not doing X surely we're not doing whyne my point is do me a favor research the history of the government uh attempts to keep the Manhattan projects secret like you may not know that Harold Yuri the very famous chemist I believe published false and misleading academic papers there's an entire complex that

you're not supposed to see which is how do we keep all of these things uh from providing advantage to adversaries and if that structure exists and you've never heard of and you've never thought about it and you don't know the history why are you so sure that you know that this is all nonsense in other news this episode is brought to you by ag1 in my quest for the best greens drink on the planet I went through just about every single option and after a year of testing I found ag1 three years later I still

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ship internationally right now you can get a Year's free Supply vitamin D3 and K2 five free ag1 travel packs and that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drink a a1.com slod wisdom all of this drink a1.com modern wisdom that's a good point that's a very good point I think the implication which is pretty interesting for me that you were hinting at there is that there is a potential of the obsession with string theory being a red herring very tempting shiny sparkly red herring popular one that

has ciled physicists from looking elsewhere for quite a while you're giving me that luck you giving me you're giving me a look as if I'm close but not close enough no no no when I say shiny what I mean is popular shown out front dangled and made to be glitzy and the to the public but also internally it seemed to me did Ed Whitten did you not tell me the last time that you were on here there not there are no other theories just words is that not the guy from which everybody else is down

SC shiny that is saying everything else is crap and dangerous in other words it's String Theory can't sell itself as physics by any telling of the story string theory is the most failed theory in the history of uh of physics if you look at the number of papers the amount of money the number of people the number of phds number of conferences achievements in physics proper per investment or size of effort it is the most failed theory in the history of physics and the way in which it survives is by hunting and destroying its enemies

and making its enemies dependent on them we all have a circuit in our brain that we're going to run to the string theorists to talk about the problem with string theory because of peerreview it's like when I want to report the police department for being corrupt well you should go to the police with that uh wait you're not understanding I it's but so that's the problem I think we're I think we're on the same page okay I think we are uh well I I think I'm just trying to say it's the problem of strength Theory

not the equations not the shininess not the advertising campaign the problem is look at how they treat everyone else everyone who is not a strength theorist who is trying to do stuff that could end up as a Dem export or as restricted data is covered and splattered in Lawrence Krauss and Leonard susin caused quite a Ruckus with this not long ago I didn't know that it had happened in my defense I hadn't seen this podcast and it only came out like a few days ago absolutely so this is Lawrence Krauss and Leonard susin suskin being

one of the best theoretical physicists ever no no why is he somebody worth listening to then um he's very very smart and he's one of the most important string theorists ever and he writes exceptionally clear and correct introductory books okay but he is not a leading physicist but is somebody at the Forefront of string theory absolutely and he said quote I can tell you with absolute certainty string theory is not the theory of the real world I can tell you that 100% my strong feelings are exactly that string theory is definitely not the theory of

the real world is that taking it out of context is that him framing it somewhere else or does that encapsulate the fact that he thinks string theory is a dead end that doesn't describe the world he's playing a game that I would I would say is logomachy an argument over words where he says that big S string theory is not the theory of the real world which is the theory that was used to destroy all of its competitors and that little s string theory exists I don't this is basically the attempt uh to take a

school massacre and plead to a parking ticket and no I think that the prosecution should decline the offer uh from the good Dr susin and say no no no you have 40 Years of the destruction of your colleagues to answer for you've chosen to be um words family me an uh to just about everyone who came up with a competitor the Theory and I've dealt with Leonard directly he can be Charming he's a great recontour he's very brilliant and he chooses to be a Wolf Gang poy without achievement he's taken a massive advance on a

future career which he will never have at age 85 so this is a person who wishes you to think of him as a leading physicist he absolutely categorically by the standards of physics known to our elders is not and Leonard susin is playing a game he's saying you saw Kill Bill one of the great romantic scenes of all time is filmed between Beatrix kiddo and Bill at the very end of the film he's absolutely destroyed her life he's killed her husband fiance the father of a child she forced an abortion she's been raped every indignity

on Earth has been suffered by this woman and in the end she wants to know how could you do that to me and what are his words say I overreacted and and you see in the film if I recall correctly she leans forward and she says you you overreacted is that your explanation like how can that be that my life has been turned upside down and your offering to me is I overreacted so these people and I and I want to specifically call out the most aggressive of them Lu lubos modal mokaku Leonard susin uh

Jeff Harvey Michael Duff uh Andy Stringer Kum and vafa have been on a tear that nothing else exists destroying 40 Years of competitors and what is the bride say to Bill said you and I have unfinished business that's where we are right now your explanation to me Eric Weinstein is you overreacted Leonard Tes you and I have in unfinished business what happens next oh that's going to get interesting you're watching the beginning of the collapse you're watching people running for the exits we're not yet at the Leman Brothers September 15 moment with AIG looming in

the background but right now all of these guys are trying to plead to oh well it's not String Theory proper we meant haah we meant uh something related to string theory yeah that's it you know it's like that moment comically when somebody is caught red-handed we're we're in the middle of Shaggy It Wasn't Me It's theoretical retconning yeah and uh you know there's this beautiful offering that Hector makes to Achilles we will give each other the honor of a proper burial Achilles isn't interested let's do this thing what does that mean well hopefully somebody will

come up with some money to hold a conference to get these people in the same room with the people they've tormented whose careers they've ended whose funds they've stolen The Stolen Valor of actual achievements in real attempts to change physics and wouldn't it be delicious and fun to see Meo Kaku edwi Lenny suskin Michael Duff Jeff Harvey actually have to face people who know what they're talking about and have a discussion of what did we just do for 40 years did we are we protecting the American public from restricted data I have no idea but

I can tell you this nobody in their right mind gives a startup 40 Years of Runway with never a call with investors nor um even a basic MVP most you know minimal viable product we've been playing weekend at Biden's and now we're also playing weekend at Lenny's this is really funny who else would you want to uh have a chat with the guys on the string theory side of the world well I think uh I think Peter white would be fun he's got two new theories again I don't agree with either of them I have

my own Theory and I I'm happy to fight with Peter but Peter and I have been friends for all these years uh I would love to have Nema Aran hemed and Ed Frankle and others uh judge this people who aren't really string theorists who appreciate the best part s of string inspired mathematics let's say or string inspired mechanisms in physics there is there is the the equations are not without interest or Merit it's the the sociology should be hunted and removed with extreme prejudice it's anti-science so I don't know much or anything really about the

inner workings of string theory but saine hosenfeld has been on the show Brian Green's been on the show uh Sean Carol's been on the show oh let's get them all of them and I saw a tweet saying that somebody had been to a string theory convention and had asked the question what is string theory and the best string theorists on the planet came up with the answer we kind of don't know what string theory is and the other answer is whatever it is that we're doing whatever it is that the string theory Community is doing

even if they did something had nothing to do with string theory they've now tried to say how about this and I don't know if you remember Maxwell Smart and gets smart so he was a Comic version of um James Bond an American bumbling secret agent who somehow solved cases and and and and stopped terrible plots but always by making a accidents and when wherever he was caught he would say you know I'm not worried because right now we're surrounded by the Third Battalion of the Marine Division s said I don't believe that would you believe

12 police officers no Mr smart I don't believe that either two Cub Scouts with slingshots so this is a this is a very old pattern yeah is this too far gone for string theory now is it the mask is beginning to slip to the point where even Ed dutton's going to have to eat his words within the next decade they'll never eat their words they'll just keep lying lying as a way of life lying to the public as I mean I think susin somewhere else in this interview says something like we have to keep interest

in physics High yeah look science is fine what we have now learned to call the science TM is an Abomination and one of the things people don't learn about from regular investing retail investing is what's called relative value trades uh people say oh I I'm bullish on Tech I'm staying out of the tech Market if you don't have the ability to go short you don't know what a relative value trade is relative value trade says uh I think Microsoft uh has the right ID over at open Ai and Google's geminy uh has too much political

encumberment so I'm going to go long Microsoft and I'm going to fund it by going short Google and therefore whatever Tech does they'll both go up or both go down as a SE within the sector as the sector Rises and Falls but you're betting on the trade hedge kind of exactly the right trade at the moment is go long science because it's been beaten up with its association with the science TM so short the science TM long science uh I think is the multi-billion dollar trade for smart countries at the moment and you have to

hunt out the science TM which lives inside of the journals lives inside of the funding agencies lives inside of the departmental defense mechanisms lives inside of the CIA Detra all of these sorts of um blob related um agencies that get their paws into science and by the way I I absolutely want the military to pick up the funding of basic research we have to overturn something called the Mansfield Amendment which a previous generation was obsessed by and modern academicians don't even know exists that was when the military was funding basic research they were our best

friends they stayed out of our hair they were just paying a retainer so that they could call On Us in times of emergency and we stupidly gave away that funding source and it's time to get it back and it's probably time to allow physicists mathematicians biologists intellectual property rights over basic research not just Technologies because what right now what we're doing is you're impoverishing the people who provide your safety and your Prosperity you're not letting them participate in the very society that they're funding I've been using my eight Sleep mattress for years and I absolutely

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of science is physics the tip of the spear or is there anything even further down science used to be dominated by physics and Mathematics in a certain sense after the atomic weapons proved their metal and then the physicists showed that they could do things that nobody could imagine for example molecular biologies is basically founded by physicists worldwide web comes out of CERN semiconductors come out of you know Stanford the the actual silicon that was in Silicon Valley um so then it became a biology focused so right now when you say science most people think biology

rather than in previous years where most people thought the physicists who could do everything uh we need hearings and we need to basically rid the National Academy of Sciences the National Science Foundation the national science board the national research Council um the journals Lance at nature science publishing houses of all of the science we've got to get rid of the science the science is infecting us we need we need Lawyers Guns and Money and it does seem like a fantastically asymmetric trade you know I think I I hear this all the time in the world

of trading look for limited downside and unlimited upside I think we could make fantastic progress with within theoretical physics within five years and I can promise you nobody's interested in funding it what does it mean when academicians go after Harvard MIT is it academicians though yeah oh it's trolls with phds there's an entire community of um trolls hunting people who descent like I bet Saina hossenfelder has people who are just sitting around trying to destroy her Y and the same was true for it's it's magnified I think not just by The Descent but also by

uh the platform same more exposure people get jealous of exposion and I don't think it's that oh I think that it is very very obvious that if somebody gets attention and someone else feels that it's undeserving in one form or another that guy's are phony and look at all of the whatever they get I think there's some of that but I think to think that that's what it is is mistaken not entirely but I think that it's a a really big uh leverage function on top of it I don't think that's true right now we

have a country with no president and we've moved on and what's tayor Swift doing right so my claim is is that anti-in once you understand what anti- interesting is like ass assume that you actually wanted just to humiliate people you'd give them a talk if you can't play the piano um and I want to humiliate you because you say you're a piano player away you go I'll I'll get you a grand piano on a stage in an audience yeah yeah yeah yeah no no this isn't that this is something really interesting and because it's also

it's cheap it's free why don't we find out whether somebody has something to say I'm I'm telling you right now I believe I can explain where the particle Spectrum comes from I can explain the origin of this is my claim uh the 16 particles that make up the first generation of matter not coming from particle theory but coming from general relativity the most natural thing in the world is to say it's a really bold claim there's no known explanation for the particle Spectrum in terms of general relativity what is that guy talking about let's get

him in here let's get him on video we'll humiliate him this will be fun we'll take away his audience never happens instead what it is is that there's this constant sort of whisper campaign against somebody like Sabina OH she's a popularizer she's not serious she she doesn't know her stuff blah blah blah blah blah it's the uh they sold out of uh pop pop musicians I like their old stuff well did did you see this thing with Shan Carroll and Kurt gongal I know Kurt theories of to toe theories of everything um I didn't see

what him and sha got into this is this is spicy this is like the Kardashians for physicists I love it oh absolutely yeah uh so Kurt says well what do you think of Lee smolen Steven wolf from Eric Weinstein and Peter white and Sean Carroll very deafly says oh I wouldn't put uh Lee smolen in with them the others are amateurs Lee Mullen is a serious physicist Peter white just wrote one of the greatest books in physics and Mathematics I've ever seen a comprehensive Guide to the role of group Theory within the quantum symmetry within

the quantum nobody knew that this guy had this in him he was running this blog and it was an excellent blog everybody in the community reads it nobody and and many people pretend that they don't because it's very critical of string theory but he's very very good then he writes a book like this nobody saw it coming then he comes up with two theories both of which I think are wrong but are really really clever about the nature of the strong force uh what would be called weaker hypercharge and what would be called weak Isis

Spin and and the origin of the Left Right asymmetry of the universe called chirality and when I ask these critics they have no idea what these theories are it takes took me like 15 to 45 minutes to get the basic idea of both this is preposterous to for Shan Caroll to claim Peter white is considerably better than Shan Carroll and if you don't believe it let's have the two of them on stage with each other it's very funny I would love to see CTS moderate that conversation yeah uh so I had an idea that I

really wanted to teach you about and I think I love this part of our interaction well I here something I prepared earlier um so you'll be familiar with the term audience capture which is when you begin feeding red meat to your audience you start to say what they want or expect you to say rather than what you truly believe because you've been positively reinforced to do so by plays and comments and potentially money there is a you know that I brought that up in the article on the international on the intellectual dark web that Barry

Weiss no I didn't so there is a new idea which I love called criticism capture tell me about it I don't know about it so this is uh Ethan Strauss and I'm relating this to your idea of an accuracy budget as well okay and I think this may be pieces together so let's see what you think criticism capture is more dangerous than audience capture most people have occupations where they get criticized in private to have it take place in public as happens in media is a different dynamic especially in this era I happen to think

one's response to criticism is important and almost defining in this field the game isn't just what you do it's what you do after what you're doing gets defined by people who hate it I've contemplated hypothetically ideal replies when getting ripped at scale some are cruel some are nice some are strategic some are impulsive in a way they're almost all dishonest nearly everybody in this situation attempts to seem Above The Fray they're fighting like the wojack of the face in front of the rage tears that's why you see so many public figures on the internet starting

off with LOL when what they really mean is you in most instances whatever you come up with is only marginally better than I know you are but what am I the basic theory is that people are more unhinged when addressing their criticisms not their compliments I called this the stri and squeeze in a slightly different context so the idea is that he a low value human becomes obsessed with you because what they get out of it um is if you react to them they want the attention and the portion of your audience that dislikes you

to become Their audience and if you answer the criticism like intellectually you're fundamentally playing into a Gambit so you try not answering the criticism and then it becomes why won't he answer his critics and then you're saying well are you applying this criticism um uniformly are you it's an absolutely diabolical situation so the point that I find interesting is not although it is what is the motivation if the criticizer is interesting to me but what is the response of the criticized is much more interesting to me what are the options I I'm actually just interested

what do you see is the options that are possible because I can't this is a problem that I can't solve I understand I think there's a great point that Ethan makes where he says that the unraveling usually starts as a rebuttal to some criticism not the Embrace of some inspired followers say more about that the impact of criticism isn't the impact yes people fear the professional social and financial consequences of reputation but often in media that's not what kills you instead it's your own unforced errors in response to the criticism very some people some people

change their messaging to avoid the blowback like a wide receiver shying from necessary contact over the middle some disagreeable personalities get their backs up and overcorrect their content starts to match the fevered pitch of their most aggressive detractors they almost mirror the derangement regarding criticism itself as a positive indicator so I think we've all seen over the The Last 5 Years people lean into almost being a a meme of a meme being a caricature of themselves and you know I know that you had a I think you were disheartened by what you didn't see your

audience do for you when some criticism came for the portal it wasn't criticism I can handle criticism you'll notice that I have a very strong civility issue I have an anti-stalker anti-roll policy for example I really like Michael malice as an individual but when Jay Leno had a bunch of hot oil or something scaled his face Michael chose to make a joke and he said well Jay Leno hasn't been hot this hot in years and it's not like I don't understand the joke but it's like I don't know Jay Leno and the guy just had

skull I just don't do this I don't like getting energy from hurting people M I just did this Terrence Howard thing with Joe Rogan and I told Joe I will not go on a show as a debunker it I I texted you and said how impressed I was with your patience really it's not just patience Terren has a couple things that are really worth while and and that wait wait wait it entitles me to say a lot of what you're doing is just very very low quality but this thing that you're doing over here I'll

vouch for I'll put my name behind that that's really clever and really good if I can't find one Jewel one gem one positive thing to say it's it's for somebody else and part of this is I'm trying to indicate this is what criticism actually is I'm modeling what criticism I wasn't weak I didn't shy away from what I considered to be the sort of uninformed or pseudo scientific or historically inaccurate stuff in that but I also had no desire to hurt Terren and in fact I wanted to elevate him and help him to make him

feel silly or you know that there there's a time to hurt somebody and I don't but Terren hadn't done anything you know he's confused about things and he he knows that he has something and he doesn't know where it comes from and all that kind of stuff and then to hear some giant portion of the internet say oh my God know this is the way this is the genius and another portion say this guy is an idiot and has nothing neither of these things are true to get back to your point about criticism capture I

can't solve this problem because the critics are mostly stalkers I'll answer a Critic anybody who's the first thing I'm going to do if you call me like a cult leader I'm gonna say well tell me something what did you call Ed Whitten what did you call any susin because that's a cult you want to talk about a cult I mean that's a serious cult there's no way that you can um say well you know the this tiny cult down the street uh you know has a problem with pedophilia say well did you check out the

Catholic Church well no we're not doing that that's a religion oh okay I understand so you're going to go after small fry um as long as you go after everybody evenly and fairly and academically you're not a troll I saw a great quote the other day that said cult failed religion religion successful cult they're in they're interrelated at at a a very important Lev but you know like Redemption is part of all religions usually and very often some of these minor Cults are just about expulsion and destruction I think that what we have to realize

is that civility wasn't some sort of nice among uh 18th century gentlemen it's absolutely essential to high trust activities like science that have incredible power over our lives and I am not aware of my critics I have trolls I have stalkers I have people I fear physically and I think about legally and I think about protection from them but I'm not aware of a single critic of my theories if you if you ask anybody who jumps up and says oh I'm a Critic of Eric's theories I would say ask that person has that person uh

tried to uh hunt down your previous connections and written to your friends and tried to dig up dirt and if they answer honestly because I actually have the letters and emails that that these people engage in these people are character assassins posing as critics and I think that this is actually the big problem we don't have debates we have um we have street fights we have people pulling a knife in a boxing match or you know plaster you know bandages in their boxing gloves or or whatever is going on we need fights we need critics

we need debates that are refereed that are ethical where people shake hands at the beginning and hug at the end touch gloves you know we don't have that and we're and we're dying from that you'll notice that for example in the string theory and the string theory critics they basically don't appear on the same stage ever and this has to do with wrestling versus MMA you notice that you don't see um if wrestling is so effective why don't we why don't we try it like professional wrestling inside of an MMA thing where you're jumping up

on the cage and coming down and all this stuff it's because one thing is an actual sport and one thing is a simulated Sport and I think that what we need is we need Queensbury rules Queensbury rules is what how you avoid kayab um you have ideas you can't gouge eyes you can't use small digit manipulation where you break fingers you can't go for the throat or the genitals you put your finger on I've never heard of this criticism capture and I love it and that's why I developed the concept of the strice and squeeze

either you allow us to whittle away at you or you respond to us you boost us and you become part of the Trap you know if you ever watch like David Attenborough naturalism you'll see pack animals whether it's orcas or hyenas doesn't matter they do this thing where they nip at their Target and then there's this weird voice over which I don't understand at all it says you know the are trying to uh trick the animal into expending its energy uh to to fend off these nips the nips don't actually do much damage but they

do exhaust the animal so it won't be able to fight later say okay so imagine that you don't respond to the nips do you live no no no no you then the heus become emboldened and then you die a different way so my point is is is that Evolution would certainly have figured out not to respond to the nips if that was a winning strategy everybody's concerned about the social status isn't it interesting that everybody pretends that they aren't I am I'm of course I'm concerned about my social States because it's my ability to walk

into a department and talk to a colleague I think what we're going to do is we're going to solve this problem because to not solve this problem is to effectively dead end um our most important scientific Endeavors to say nothing of other forms of criticism but just in science mhm right now the critics don't exist the stalkers are everywhere and the the length to which the stalkers will go particularly in my case PhD level stalkers people who write to my wife's thesis advisor you know you're talking about a level of insanity that I think these

people are emboldened because what they do in the shadows just isn't known can you see my uh Kitty play pen pink fluffy version of of your terrorism capture sure can you see the line that I would draw between that and the idea that you have of an accuracy budget and how one could become perverted by the other oh sure look but I love I love the accuracy budget thing and I've not heard of it before which is why I wanted to give you hypocracy budget the accuracy budget all of these budgets to to lead to

human life the inconsistency budget yeah can you explain because it's it's one of the coolest things that I've learned I really appreciate that recent in order to live a life in public you're going to opine on a million different things you're not going to be G be giving full footnotes you're not going to be giving um oh I don't know bibliographies and counters and so in essence there's sort of a good faith level of hypocrisy and inaccuracy and self-kindness and all of these things that every human being exhibits and if the idea is that we're

going to hold everyone who's expressed inconsistent opinions or who's found a self- serving opinion now and again and we're going to call that person a hypocrite or a liar or whatever we're going to torch all of our best people what if we took Gregor mendle and his PE pods where we found out about melan genetics and we said well you faked your data so everything you did is crap because he did fake his data but he's also a genius who Advance the field Newton and his Alchemy yeah for sure and all of in order to

keep good people in the public sphere the key question isn't have you ever exhibited inconsistency have you ever been cruel when you shouldn't have been you self- kind like for example you made the statement in our last meeting it's way too close to November uh for anyone uh to leave the race does that mean that we should never listen listen to Chris Williamson again horseshit in fact the most important thing is is that you own that in the first part of The Interchange and so my feeling is is that not only do you have uh

a budget for making strong statements that turn out not to be true but we also know that you're like a really good faith actor and I would listen more to you the next time you say something like oh come on Eric there's no question that whatever it is and so how do we get this idea of no no no that was hypocritical but he's way under budget on hypocrisy she's you know she got that wrong um but on the other hand uh you know she's told us so many things that are right her her budget

doesn't go to zero like I think Neil degrass Tyson is really really wrong on gender on the other hand so much of what he says is just true and there's a move like I'm very critical of Neil but do you want to cancel a guy who's this good at explaining science Sean Carroll is an absolute ass when it comes to critics of mainstream Theory and and a diabolical one but he's civil he's a great explainer he really knows physics at a very deep level that many people do not currently and I don't want to see

Shan Carroll removed from science explanation I I want to dance with him on a stage that would be fun but that is not a person that needs to be removed because he's got a really bad nasty streak to him when it comes to the critic the criticism of mainstream physics and I just don't understand this this desire for personal destruction there's there's this some there's no principle of Charity have well there are people who don't no I should say it differently I've become aware that in that Community to show any kind of Mercy or charity

or generosity let's take the the debunking community the people who are always telling you don't worry I will warn you about the bad people on the internet you're consuming they work at the level of the human and that's how you know that there's something wrong with them I can't think of an individual who always gets everything wrong you know Donald Trump has done a lot right broken clocks yeah what no it's not broken clocks yeah yeah do you think Adolf Hitler got to be uh the leader of Germany because he got every single thing 180

degrees wrong that you could set your clock to him how wrong he was no he had to get things right but he's absolutely diabolical so what do we do we put a perimeter around him and say look that thing is so dangerous that we are going to act as if everything it says is wrong and that's what this that's what this comes from it comes from a strategy where you can't afford to do Fugu with certain people Fugu um Japanese puffer fish served as Sushi where the neurotoxin produces a delightful tingling sensation on the tongue

if carved correctly and if served improperly kills the patron so you have Fugu chefs and you can't afford to let an unlicensed uh Chef serve Fugu and so in part the strategy is you say well puffer fish is just too dangerous to eat and therefore puffer fish bad I think that that's what we do too often we've just decided that effectively um the debunking community wants to go after people wholesale it's much more efficient to destroy the human well efficiency was sort of what was front and center there that we all look for shortcuts right

we have heuristics we have a reputation this person has been wrong X number of times therefore we can accurately predict that dot dot dot um but it seems like any inconsistency any hypocrisy any failure um is often uh magnified and scrutinized and and blown up out of proportion with the accuracy budget one of the interesting things that was I've been talking about recently is that um content creators like a podcaster or YouTuber or whatever will get criticized for the videos that they made or the guests that they brought on yeah but they never get complimented

for the guests that they didn't bring on give me an example like you've never had Alex Jones on have you no so for instance the the the number of guests that get offered to us get suggested that we should bring them on that I should bring them on and I say no to because of me not believing that they're a good actor that I don't want to speak to them that I'm not interested in them uh but very few people know the people that you said no to almost nobody does so you don't get any

bonus points because it's very confusing like for example I might have Alex Jones on my show I would never do uh Infowars right and so the idea is you're trying to figure out the context Alex Jones says many interesting things and he's been right about many interesting things and he's gotten things really dangerously wrong um you have to take in and by the way I've talked to Alex Jones which is interesting um the funniest part about it is he uses Alex Jones as sort of an adjective like that guy is way more Alex Jones than

I am um which is really disconcerting like intellectually um James O'Keefe does some good work and he does some work work that I can't stand and I had him on or you know I had um the woman who plays Riley Reid the pornographic actress as a guest on the portal and uh I'm very disturbed by some of the things that she's engaged in but I find her you know absolutely a Charming soul and we talked about things that did not that were not in inly uh exciting because we were talking about the context of the

work so the issue of serving Fugu is really important and I think that it has to do with in what context does it occur does the host push back and sort of warn people about some of the issues that are dangerous and is the is is the host any is that person good enough to serve Fugu so when we balance criticism capture how that feels for the Creator the people that people are fans of that me and you are fans of we are both this is the funny thing about about content that Elon musk's jet

is delayed I imagine he's got a lots of things to do but one of those things will probably be if he's tired I'll open up YouTube and I'll see what's on there everybody is a fan of somebody on the internet whether it's writing reading heing whatever it might be um and when you combine that with this idea of an accuracy budget and basically the fact that everybody's accuracy budget starts in a deficit that the principle of Charity is very rarely given to anybody on the internet uh I had this idea of the peak hate rule

similar to the peak end rule that everybody every content creator every sort of public person is known for their biggest and most recent uh sort of runin with something that people find reprehensible okay uh so Jordan Peterson best known for Bill c16 he's a transphobe and also Jordan Peterson is a Zionist pro- Israel maybe that's the most recent thing that he's done or he mansplains to Kathy new I don't know who whatever is whatever his most recent thing is um Lex tweeted recently I think that neither Trump nor Harris will destroy America if elected president

call me crazy but I think that Trump is not a fascist and Harris is not a communist I think this is a reasonable rable position but according to the Internet it's insane either way getting attacked by both sides has been mentally exhausting for me perhaps that's the design of the current political climate anybody with moderate open-mindedness needs to be pushed out in favor of a battle between dogmatic extremes this doesn't seem like the right path toward truth has been mentally exhausting for me was the point that I made and the thing that I've realized now

kind of seeing both sides of the fence being both a Creator and a consum is that this lack of principle of Charity this over magnification from the creative side in terms of how it feels from a criticism capture perspective that your criticisms are more uh deleterious than your compliments are infusing uh and the fact that the accuracy budget doesn't exist basically means that apart from the most staunch I don't give a Tim Kennedy Joe Rogan style or I don't read the comments style approaches almost everybody that you like to watch on the internet is on

this very slow descent where they begin to run out of fuel that anybody that anybody that decides to play with ideas that needs to push the accuracy budget right anyone that decides to actually push up against I'm not too sure here but I'm going to give this a crack okay uh they are going to be disproportionately um criticized online that is going to be uh deleterious and it's going to dagate their motivation and that basically means that everybody is on this sort of slow and it's essentially a fight against like digital entropy well look I'm

learning something from our conversation in real time like for example I cannot I don't have a good response to stalking and what I realized is that my discomfort with the people who are coming after me is a stalking based discomfort and now I'm suddenly understanding why Joe Rogan is saying like don't read the comments which is like a don't let the critics live rentree in your head that's not my problem so in part um if I understand what you just said I think kamla has some communism in her appeal I may not be native to

her but I know that that the uh under 30 crowd is playing with like Neo marxian ideas and that I've been told by the Democratic party we need their votes don't worry they won't get anywhere inside the party we just let them mouth off and they don't get any legislation passed like I've been told here's the plan we need you to stop coming after us of course we're hypocritical we're courting Communists because we need the votes to win but I guarantee you they won't be able to do any damage if we are elected so now

you say something about comma and somebody says I can see the communism Equity is communism it's equality of outcome that the support for October 7th is revolutionary it's not you're not talking about liberalism or progressivism you're talking about uh calling the murder of parents in front of their children resistance these sorts of things are confusing us because we have these very strange amalgams I can tell you that part of kamla um is the appeal to the to the the Hampton crowd that she will continue the carried interest exemption in the tax code that doesn't feel

very communistic another part of her is speaking to um you know radical islamists saying uh don't worry we're going to be portraying this as uh bigotry and islamophobia you're just another religion like any other and you're being subjected to pre Prejudice so how do you deal with an amalgam where you can't go long and short I can tell you that there are parts of Donald Trump that I very much appreciate and there parts of Donald Trump that make it impossible for me to imagine voting for him when he was at a rally and there was

a protester being leted out and he said you know back in the day we all have our bad Trum we know how to take care of such people and if anybody wants to rough these people up I I'll pay your legal bills and I thought wow you have no idea what you just Unleashed and you're comfortable with it I don't want that person with a nuclear football my discomfort with Donald Trump isn't a class issue or whatever is I saw a temperament that shouldn't be anywhere near that KLA Harris shouldn't be anywhere near the nuclear

football I have no idea who's on top of the nuclear football because it can't be Joe Biden I promise you that and I've been assured by the way that what's really going on is that there's a team that is governing because Biden cannot and that I should feel if I knew who these people were I would be pleased as punch because they're far better than Joe Biden can you imagine being told that as an American we're not going to come we're not going to invoke the Constitution and rid ourselves of a president who's incompetent we've

instead installed a great team that you can't see so don't worry so in all of these situations Chris I think what's happening is we don't have the ability to slice and dice the average person I don't know if you've seen this poll that I'm running right at the moment still live I decided to try to make pro-choice and prif the same category and I asked the question you want to pull it up on my Twitter feed and read it by the way anytime you do a poll on Twitter you will always be told you don't

realize that this is biased because it's your audience and you don't realize that you're language is prejudicial but it's funny that those complaints aren't levied AT AP or or because every poll is subject to something like this this one's really instructive question is your position on abortion whatever it is exactly the same for the day after conception as it is for the day before full-term birth yes of course 33% no of course not 67% 2557 votes there's a bit of time left I don't think it's going to reverse though well here here's my question first

of all is that already an interesting result because pro-life and pro-choice in their most staunch form are now sharing a position that it is either my body or my body my choice or uh this is a life uh and it's always murder so both of those are now grouped and it about onethird of the respondents hold a pro-life or pro-choice position the comments are dominated by people saying of course it's a life this is a monstrous question how can you even think about this I don't believe in Murder so in other words it's not even

the pro-choice people but the pro-life people who are dominating the comments and it goes back to Yates with the idea that uh the worst are full of passionate intensity and the best lack all conviction it's not right but it's the people within a clear ideological position feel very comfortable speaking and the people who have a Nuance position have learned their lesson to shut up the quiet middle and this is why mere negative stuff on the internet doesn't have a lot of effect on me I just say oh my god I've I've learned my lesson about

the Chihuahua effect the Chihuahua effect is is that the annoying voices that just Yap all day long have time because they're not doing anything productive they're mean people they're not that important so I basically just block on civility if you start using loaded language about clown lol you know that stuff I just block you because I can't afford to have that person in my head what I don't know what to do with is the fact that people don't realize that neither pro-life nor pro-choice as an example captures an average thinking person's response to the complex

embryology of pregnancy and cessation I've always said that uh what is a position that you you know that famous Peter question what is the position that you hold that most people would would disagree with I don't actually know if this is the truth but it's certainly one that people don't talk about and mine is that both pro-life and pro-choice sound like the right answer to me I can be I've got permanent recency bias yeah based on whoever the most uh like the closest proximity last guy was if I've just watched Shapiro right I oh yeah

well that does make a lot of sense so and so I'm exactly the opposite my feeling is the the the only two positions I don't listen to in Immigration theory is open borders and closed borders because they're both exactly this is my getto room position closed borders and open borders people should get a room pro-life and pro-choice people should get a room the rest of us are trying to solve problems I don't know what you guys are doing and you know it's not like I don't have absolutes in my life I do it's just that

they're few and far between and they have to be carefully Chosen and I think this has to do with shelling points if you know that concept Asim Don so if you don't believe that conception or birth is the uh right limit point for inter uh interceding in a pregnancy then you're looking for some point that is much less well defined you know is it a particular Carnegie stage is it viability if it's viability what happens when the technology changes what about Frozen embryos etc etc so we have this this pension for Clear positions that are

wrong over nuanced positions that are right but lack a good shelling point and it's always been the case I I I noticed this so long ago that certainty is a proxy for expertise it's a good version of it it is uh I I the example I use all of the time um I I don't know why it's the case but Peter Zion geopolitics guy yeah he has Rogan actually brought this up and Sam Harris both separately uh and it was so funny it was this thing that I'd had after I'd spoken to him that I

then heard Rogan say on an episode and Sam say on the intro to the episode with Peter this is the most man I've ever spoken to in the world I I don't necessarily have the chops or have done the research to be able to work out the veracity of what he's saying but my God it's convincing because this isn't caveated it's not it seems to be so the evidence would suggest that so and so this is exactly what's going to happen with nitrogen balance in the soil in Russia over the next five harvests this is

what we know is going to occur with the Chinese battleships in the South China SE which is so I'm exactly the opposite guy my feeling and and I and I wish I would love to just push this out is pay the tax on the way in so for example uh of all the free speech people I I'm the only one I know who says categorically I'm not a free speech absolutist and I've watched my friends who said they were free speech absolutists fall off pay the tax on the way out well the problem is is

that you know you're going to meet a situation in which you have to realize that that simplistic so the key thing is there are a lot of things that generate Applause you know and you've got to forgo the Applause lines right because those Applause lines are there because people are saying finally somebody said it they just I appreciate the clarity there there wasn't a lot of Wiggle words can I give you a a physics term that we've been playing about with me and a couple of my friends love to learn thinking in super positions yeah

before collapsing it down but there's some people who can't bear the uncertainty 100% I mean I really believe that that is probably the one concept of quantum mechanics that actually like if if you the Heisenberg stuff where people say well if you if you look at a system you interfere with it that has nothing to do with Heisenberg the superposition is actually pretty much a tight pairing between quantum mechanics and what it is that we need to do another version of this by the way is some giant percentage of the population says I don't understand

your argument when they say when they really mean I don't accept your argument for example you could ask me I don't you could say Eric I don't understand anti-Semitism Jews do so much they contribute to society I would say I understand anti-Semitism now there's a question wait wait wait a second we're trying to label anti-semites as lunatics and you're saying you can actually yeah I can run it in emulation I have a Sandbox in my brain I've got a little anti-semite in my Jewish brain I'm sure he's loving it he's having a great time up

there he wants to know why so many of your guests are Jewish um we've got to stop doing that we've got to stop saying I can't understand X when we mean I understand X find X very very dangerous and wrong it's almost like a weakness or a fragility to not allow yourself to try and play that other side what was that uh you need to be able to explain the other side's argument better than they can yeah this is the steel Manning thing that I think I actually forget who I heard it from first I

used it on Sam Harris and the first time I ever heard it be used was Sam and Jordan was how they opened up that Pang bur debate so I think he got it I think you you can hear on something called faith in reason where Sam asks me to clarify what that means and it wasn't original to me but I it's a really important concept it's very cool and it's outrageously civil well thank you and you know this is one part of the reason you know something I I don't know how to deal with is

that I coin a lot of acronyms Concepts Etc and people say why do you do that it detracts from your message it's a lot of clutter and I I don't know how to respond exactly we're missing a lot of Concepts and one of the things that I know is coming from you is a book in which you take all of the things that you pepper these conversations with um these Concepts which are necessary for Modern Life but haven't been embedded in our education right so like the Strand effect before you get to the Strand squeeze

is actually something that's very important to understand in our media age and if that wasn't pushed out it would be very confusing as to why somebody wouldn't respond to something when they do have an answer MH um our cognitive toolkit got hit with a lot of stuff having to do with the internet then the web then social search and mobile that is so much change that a brain that came before those five things cannot function in the modern world and what we need to do of course and this is why I I was suspicious that

we're going to be in this criticism issue forever is we haven't yet invented the concepts that make Modern Life tolerable and I think that you and I and a bunch of people in podcasting land are casting about for what are the missing Concepts and and I give this example of the word selfie because it was the best example I've ever seen why did h chicks in restaurant bathrooms take pictures of themselves in mirrors nobody knew didn't make any sense and at some point somebody coined the word selfie and it was instant we'd all seen this

phenomenon but nobody had had a concept he was word of the year in one year yeah yeah and the reason is is that you needed it because it was there everywhere but until it had some place where it could nucleate around this is good so this has just uh tied me in to this makes this makes an awful lot of sense so your idea of an accuracy budget okay I think I need to request uh a meme budget yeah because I one of the criticisms that people have for me and a bunch of my friends

like George or whoever why does everything need a name why does everything need to be an analogy why does it have to be why does it have to be a yogurt lid moment as opposed to why can't you say you just saw some and I'm like for a few reasons firstly this is great firstly remembering Concepts is hard and essentializing something taking it from this big long St the parable of the Mexican fisherman if you've heard the story a couple of times you remember what it is you don't need to hear the story again you

just hear the parable of the Mexican oh yeah of course it's the guy that over complicates his life and ends up coming back to the place where he began it's the same stories you get in The Alchemist by Paulo quo etc etc fantastic dis ego it pick whatever it is of choice and then it takes this huge huge big concept and synthesizes it down and if you don't know it then you can click on that and the hyper the phrase and or the uh fails over to a bumper sticker the bumper sticker to a summary

paragraphed and Abstract to a short essay to a book and so the idea is that the more you need of these things you can keep clicking through yep to expand out to expand out the funny thing is that have you noticed that caned humor disappeared what's that mean nobody three guys go into a bar that thing that your uncle used to do doesn't happen in our world at all and almost all of the Jewish wisdom that had been in the talmud in my experience my father had 35 Jokes which if you understood all of them

was a blueprint for life and like I'll just say the punchlines knew he had a hat keep your goddamn Jack uh $5,000 plus legal expenses Now by killing canned humor you killed off the encapsulation of thousands of years of talmudic study about the very difficult tradeoffs and constraints that human beings are under and so you say yeah I don't tell corny jokes you sound like you from the cat skills like well no Sherlock you just basically took the human endowment and flushed it down the toilet now something else I want to play with if you

if I can the stuff that comes back at you on the internet if you had to pick and choose what you think is fair and what you've learned from versus what you think is just a distraction I wonder if that would be something we could play with like what have you learned from your critics where do you think there's validity where do you have an unsolved problem and where do you just have the idea of I can't have that in my head it's the wor thing in the world the most accurate I think is that

uh my difficulty in discomfort pushing back uh my people pleasing nature is in me everywhere that I go uh actually apart from one I'm in a restaurant uh dealing with waiters I'm pretty good at making my sort of needs known there but outside of that uh sitting with discomfort um disappointing people making them upset or angry um I often feel like other people's emotional states are my responsibility this is something that I have across the board um and that means that I have a particular Vector of weakness when it comes to the podcast because a

lot of the time I need to push back against ideas I need to stress test and if you say something good example of this Abigail Shri wrote a book bad therapy yeah and I fundamentally disagreed with a lot of the ideas in it so I thought and I messaged a friend before I was going to do it and said this is my plan for the episode I want to make my positions known and not step in and throw a life boy to try and fix the problem and the you know perennial recovering people pleases out

there may sort of feel the same that you say a thing which is going to induce some discomfort or something which is it stops it's got a harsh end to it or whatever and then you say would it you sort of bring this thing into Land by offering so how can it be the case that therapy All Therapy is bad because it allows you or it causes you to focus on your yourself and your issues but you also including that CBT something which is unbelievably practical and and shows up as an evidence-based intervention for lots

of people's disorders is it that and then it's is it that you step into soften the blow I see so throughout that episode in particular I had to ask these questions and then as I watch the guest get to this point which is exactly the the reason that you ask a difficult question as opposed to there is this compulsion inside of me I'm dragged forward to go well what I mean and and throw this sort of Life boy to them uh because sitting with that discomfort so that is by far I think the most valid

criticism now one of the things that you that nobody gets to see is how hard it is for people to achieve the things that they achieve so apart from in sports if you got a guy that's got the world bench press record with long arms and you go oh my god look the length of his arms look at his bench press record that's phenomenal the dude that's 5 foot 10 that's in the NBA oh my God look at his height he's in the NBA you know you can see this physical characteristics but then if you

were to see Douglas Murray and Malcolm Gladwell yeah on stage together or Ben Shapiro and anybody and you go they're able to be disagreeable so seamlessly for me to get even 5% of the way there I need to do the equivalent of a one rep max to to tell AB ask abigel what CBT um and that's for me just an obvious area where hypertrophy and Noob gains can be acred most easily so I think that's that's the fairest of of the criticisms anything else that you think is like something you find in the comments where

you feel like you know you're you're pointing at something that's true but you're not getting it right or um certainly oh actually I mean one of the one of the criticism that that comes up relatively frequently is I'm both a misogynist a red pill right-wing misogynist and also a blue pilled leftwing cuck at the same time super position super it's absolutely thinking in a super position but you'll see the comments on the same video yeah you'll see them underneath the same video and uh I it that is one of the things as somebody who uh

fears not fears criticism capture but certainly would be a a poster boy for uh criticism capture being warping and it's something that I need to account for I I do particularly well with positive reinforcement with enthusiasm with excitability can I give you my take on this because I think this is one of the most interesting things you just put your finger on what what you're talking about are cognitive clusters so for example when I was on this the first time I learned about it I was on stage with Ben Shapiro and Sam Harris and if

you look at the clusters of comments on that video from the Masonic theater in San Francisco they were like thank God Eric was there because otherwise we'd be hearing about uh is there a god yes no which is boring as hell why is Eric on stage we're all here just to hear the atheist debate the Orthodox Jew so what you what you learn about is that the cognitive clusters have no awareness that they're part of this dietic relationship of what you are and how they process so for example I'm colorblind as is my brother are

you really yeah wow and the first thing that everyone says to a colorblind person what color is that over there you go I I don't it's very it's very interesting being colorblind because it's the terminology is bad you see color but you don't have the same um it's not like the world is is black and white it's just yellow or green I can't tell so depending upon what color blindness you have you see different numbers in the pebble tests that they give you so the question of what is the pebble you know it's basically it's

basically uh you know Mindstorm versus green noodle or the green needle or the dress or any one of these things where people Factor themselves out of the equation and they imagine that they are in a universal position as consumers of whatever it is that you just said right it's like why why does he spend so much time on the stuff he's discussed on every other podcast why does he just jump in as assuming everybody knows exactly what this is about your audience is unaware of the fact that they've been cognitively clustered and so when you

read these things you're not reading about you you're reading about dietic relationships with different cognitive clusters and you'll find the same like one of the one of the things that I know is that a lot of people don't agree with the dialectic they believe that there's a thesis and there's an in an antithesis and there's no synthesis there's just people sitting on the fence who who are for not having a position and so every time I attempt to synthesize things because things are in superp position and I'm trying to talk about the Nuance they have

an idea of he never says anything because to them to that person saying something is to say Trump is the man you got to go with kamla otherwise you're just you know those sorts of people in that pole for example uh the cluster that believes that pregnancy doesn't change in any meaningful way relative to abortion are a meta cluster including pro-life and pro-choice yep what what we need to do more of is to understand what it is that we're reading as feedack back I know for example that many people find me overbearing and it's not

that I don't see that in myself but nobody ever asks me do you see in yourself that you can be overbearing a conversation totally well if you can see it why do you do it interesting question um in general I find that sometimes I I try not to be at overbearing at all and I feel like most conversations end up in a conversation I've already been in I'm I'm old enough and I'm just bored because I think that humans in general are a large language model that's one of the reasons Naval hasn't done another podcast

properly since Rogan said I don't want to say the same things twice maybe um but I guess what I find is that people don't ask about other people's levels of self-awareness oh I love asking that I love asking that that's one of the reasons that your question was so interesting there's a a concept familiar or similar to what you were talking about before called tilting at windmills an online stranger doesn't know you all they have are a few vague impressions of you too meager to form anything but a fantasm so when they attack you they're

really just attacking their own imagination and there is no need to take it personally my brother has a version of this that I think is brilliant where he says that the person who's just cut you off in traffic all you know about them is that they cut you off in traffic you don't know about their work in pediatric oncology and so until you actually have a fuller position you don't realize that you've cut somebody off in traffic and been cut off in traffic and the only data point you have represents the entire human of course

yeah combination of fundamental attribution error and a bunch of others there's a an equival an equivalent that I learned uh from Instagram of all places which I I think sort of shows this relativity or our assumption that our position is the correct one every guy that fancies girls with bigger boobs than mine is a chubby chaser every guy that fancies girls with smaller boobs than mine is a pedophile that basically you have yourself as the reference point and then anything outside of that on either side is is some perturbant why do you think this is

why do you think that we don't actually I'll be honest almost no conversation in my life moves above the level where I could set a large language model to have it good question so I think we have these social mores and and and Dynamics typically that we follow uh by not wanting to look silly or play outside of an area that we know a lot of the time it causes us to go back to scripts that we've run before that we knew kind of worked so I think confidence sort of social confidence has a lot

to do with it um thinking is expensive and it's hard and genuinely genuinely trying to be generative during a conversation is tough a lot of the time people are uncomfortable with silence which causes them to push answers out when sort of sitting back would have maybe allowed them to come up with something new if you're trying to if you're trying to go quicker your direction can be less precise and you can move in a less agile way you're just trying to get the things out as opposed to giving yourself a little bit of a beat

this is why the best definition of a best friend is who can you spend time in Silence with without it feeling uncomfortable and who can you be around with the least filter I think those two together are a really good example of who are your people present company excluded just just for the reasons of for the obvious reasons who are the guests who bring out the best version of you as an interviewer George Mack who's one of my best friends phenomenal writer Rob Henderson ginda Bogle Rory Southerland Douglas Murray on the guesting side Rogan sorry

you've interviewed Rogan no on the as a guest guing side but I don't do that that much so I don't have a particularly big pull to pull from but those are the guys that I get to play with ideas and I know that we're focused on the idea I know that Tim Ferris was a really great example of this just such a great conversationalist you know he's if I'm imprecise with a a question or if I'm trying to get to something yeah he takes the best version of the thing that I said as what he

and he infers what I meant to say and it's absolute best so he almost as such a great interviewer makes you a better interviewer by turning your hopefully quite good question into the best question by his answer sometimes reframes it sometimes moves it in the direction it's really great it's it's like a multiplicative uh environment do you feel like you know things about Joe Rogan or Lex fredman or Douglas Murray that most people don't know that make them so successful yes and Tim Ferris and certainly Rogan and certainly Douglas okay so let's take take Rogan

because a lot of people are mystified all right so let me open up the Joe Rogan superpower as a podcaster is that he can ask a question with a statement nobody else nobody else has landed on this and I realized this the first time that I got to sit down with him so news to me it's a it's for a couple of reasons Joe is able to say a state in response to a statement so you as the guest or some dusty academic author that's got a new book out and you're telling him about you

know you're David bus talking about evolutionary psychology and it's all interesting and these are new Concepts and you finish up explaining about how sex ratio hypothesis works and Joe says it's so interesting because in New York you know you have this sort of abundance of women and the guest then goes ah so Joe doesn't make a conversation feel like an interview because he answers statements with statements if you actually listen a lot of the time Joe doesn't ask that many questions in his podcast he's not a big question asker when compared with most other podcasters

he makes statements and the reason is if you listen to most conversations normal conversations between friends statement statement statement statement it's back and forth one of the reasons that Joe's show feels so naturalistic is that he asks questions with statements it's very rare super rare I've been trying to do it ever since I went on two years ago for the first time I've been trying to cultivate that because I think it makes for such a beautiful conversational flow one of the problems that you have is as you start to push the guest's expertise the Delta

between yours and the guest's expertise your ability to answer statements with statements becomes lower you need to say what do you mean by that or how's that the case or what would you say is this thing um but that's what makes him that's one of the reasons that makes him so great and that's why it's so enjoyable uh as a as a a guest on the show I don't immediately resonate with that because I think that sometimes he has different Dynamics with different guests but it's very it's certainly at a minimum adjacent to something that

I experience with him which is he's really less egoic than just about anyone I deal with and the way that you see this like you know an interesting thing happened it's happened a couple of times between you and me where when you said this thing like do you know what audience captures like I don't I'm I'm straining it wasn't much discussed before I brought it up but I don't want to say that's mine right I just I want to let it go but I don't want to suddenly lose my claim on it and that has

to do with like ego and insecurity and yep and whatnot wanting to be recognized yeah well just and Trauma from having had things taken away from you that you can never get back Joe could take the shot himself and instead he serves it up to you correct and maybe you can't even do as good of a job as he would have done but his job like until you piss him off he's trying to make you the best version of you and this is this is where uh I come into tension with my people pleasing nature

that a combination of give someone open and they'll show themselves for who they truly are in any case than asking questions that are you know sort of it gives people the opportunity and the the room to step on the landmines that they're going to lay for themselves in any case but also I want a guest that comes on the show to just have a good time I I see it as my job to basically be a trampoline so they're going to jump up and down and it's my job to be as springy as possible and

make them seem as acrobatic and as great as as they can and a lot of the time that means taking something that someone said and as opposed to trying to tear it down to is this what you how about this or that's an interesting idea or I've got this that's Bill Bill build oh that's so interesting so on and so forth uh and it can seem like pandering I can see how they could seem sort of sycophantic in some ways but for me as far as I can tell the the job of a podcaster is

to make the guest's ideas as good as is possible this is this is the best light that they could be seen in and this is how they relate to me and this is what I think about them and this is what I thought that you meant uh and that's why it's fun that's that's that's what fires me up do you know why I do your podcast it's like three in a row when I I'm really trying to do less podcast yeah I keep bringing you out over time yeah well no but it it has to

do with the fact that this is how I get a chance to see you when you're in La true and like we don't go out to a bar so this is my chance to like hang out with you for a couple of hours and in a way it's sort of sad we have this Dynamic where it's like also save it for the podcast save it for the podcast um it's it's it's frustrating because in part like I have lots of friends that I don't podcast with who I have great conversations with one of the things

about Joe for example that I really I don't know how to tell people it he's obviously like this thing about he's a meatball me Meathead is a great troll that Meathead reads so much he knows so much he's interested in so much that a lot of what's happening is is that he's actually infusing the guest with an idea he could take credit for himself but he would rather that the guest looks good and it doesn't come across as people pleasing and I'll be honest I don't really see this criticism maybe it's because I see you

principally in your interactions with me um I don't I don't like the gotcha style you you saw this with Don Lemon and Elon Musk um where somebody comes from the gotcha style of interviewing it's like well just softball after softball like you idiots what what do you think life is do you think it's like you you you you did the gotcha question that fouled the person up on air and you got to see them sweat and break down and and lose that's not what makes great podcast and you want repeat characters that you keep coming

back to and you watch their development and I so I just want to say that from from my cognitive cluster I'm not positive that these criticisms of you are valid it may be with other guests but like in general I feel like you can you can establish an evolution of thought without going through that sort of competitive nonsense I appreciate that and it's something I'm working on so one of the most important personality traits that me and my friends have tried to cultivate in ourselves is agency it's what we're obsessed by it's what we talk

about essential uh intentionalism which is a subset it is necessary but not sufficient in order to be able to build out agency something else that we really love talking about and upon reflection I realized that all of us had first learned about the word agency from you so I wondered whether there is a from my first podcast whether there is a tension to navigate between wanting to maximize agency wanting to have control over the outcomes in your life basically believing that I will win the video game sort of no matter what's in front of me

and I will also treat life in that sort of playful manner as well which I think is an element of agency how do you navigate the tension between wanting to live a hopeful agentic existence and all of the Doom and Gloom that you're permanently embroiled in this is a it's an amazing question and I it's strange to me that it didn't get followed up by almost anybody um High agency is a lifelong commitment for me and you know the song boy names Sue by Johnny Cash can you play it on the harmonica it's mostly a

it's it's a patter song before it's like rap country no not familiar my my daddy left home when I was three didn't leave much for me m and me but this little guitar in an empty bottle of booze I didn't blame he ran and hid but mean it's thing that he ever did was before he left he went and named me Sue the guy he must have thought it was quite a joke got a lot of laugh from a lot of folks seems I had to find my whole life through some guy some gal would

Giggle and I'd get red some guy would laugh and I'd bust his head I tell you life ain't easy for a boy named Sue anyway goes on and basically this guy has to become tough and agentic and he swears that uh you know he'll search The Honky Tonks and saloons until he finds his father and kill him and finally he chances upon a saloon and there at a table de de and stud was the dirty mangy dog who named me sup and he gets into a fight with his father the father cuts off a piece

of his ear and uh finally Sue gets the better of his father and um he says you know you have the right to kill me I don't blame you if you do um but before you know before I die I want you to thank me for the spit in your cuz the dirty Mani dog who named youu or whatever and they reconcile that song to me is about dyslexia it's about disg graphia it's about the torture of school for being smart and not even having a high IQ because one of the four components of IQ

is something called processing which I just think is an Abomination that that somehow gets into intelligence I was a B minus high school student in math mostly because I was Charming or the grade would have been even lower and and so one of the things that weirdly I'm most proud of in my life and sort of the origin story that people don't ask enough about because it has to do with this Lexia is that somehow a B minus high school student limps out of high school and three years later at 19 has a master's degree

in mathematics headed for arguably the top Department in the world as a graduate school at Harvard and that's not a story about I'm so smart it's a story about agency it's about doing the thing that you're not good at like that you're really really bad at and you know my son who's currently um he's finished all of his physics courses in in the theory portion of his major as a freshman uh many years a go he broke my heart and he came to me and he said Dad I know I'm not a good student but

you'd think of all the things I'd at least be good at math because he was very analytical and then suddenly he you know during the pandemic um he wanted to get out of the school he was in because it was a bad fit in the science department and he was stuck at home between 10th and 11th grade and he said Dad I want to know if it's okay if I use this time when I'm stuck at home to study for The Graduate record exam as if I was a as if he was a graduating senior

in physics and he says I want to take it in the fall and I said well let's review this you've never taken calculus you've never taken a course in physics you're struggling in all of your technical subjects why do you want to take the GR in in physics and he said I've listened to you very carefully and you said that we should get around College by using The Graduate record exam as a colge equivalency dis degree just the way we have a high school equivalency degree and he said I've looked at all of the universities

as to what their physics requirements are in the top 10 and it's very uniform because they have to be interoperable I've reduced it to basically four books that I have to know I know what the prerequisites are and there's a test to see if it works so I can hold myself accountable I've noticed that the only place holding the GRE in physics is an Arizona can we fly to Phoenix and take the gr uh in physics as if I'm completing a four-year college and I thought about it I said this means you're going to be

ruining your summer he says no no no for me it's fun let me try will you back it so I bought him the books bought the plane ticket and the kids sat at the table for like two and a half months we fly out he takes the exam but the kid's never taken any relevant class whatsoever and he proves that he's at least at that level life is filled with these opportunities they cheat codes everywhere there are Panic rooms where if you know which book to pull the bookcase just swings open for you um both

my kids grab graduated a year early because all you have to do is ask your high school hey I really want to graduate a year early and it's possible I don't know how to teach people that no is the beginning of a conversation you know one one day I was having a a steak dinner I think with uh Dave Rubin and Jordan Peterson and it came to the Big Five personality inventory which Jordan swears by and He was discussing you know he can read off your Meyers Briggs like that and he says but that's not

really as good as the big five so he gave Dave his big five I was terrified I didn't say anything he says you Eric are particularly say why he said well you're very high in trait openness but what really distinguishes you is you're the most disagreeable person I've ever met or something close to it and I think cultivating disagreeability it even sounds bad well he's very disagreeable but it's it's trait disagreeability rather than than that it has to do with nonacceptance somebody says there's nothing we can do well is there really nothing you can do

are you sure you know very often for example I can get cat GPT to tell me things that's not supposed to by figuring out how to do prompt engineering um there's almost always a way to do anything that seems like it should be possible and cultivating this trait macgyvering everything or finding the cheat code is a way of life and if you don't have that as a as a dyslexic my grandfather was probably the most brilliant of four people in his generation and the four families that came West to make mayonnaise for it's how we

ended up in California and he wasn't equal to it couldn't graduate from college couldn't get Beyond his intelligence couldn't get beyond the deficit and one of the podcasts that nobody listens to me on that I'm proudest of is a a podcast called something like teach me teacher where I basically go after Educators and I say you guys are the most dangerous horrible people to the neurode Divergent every second I of my life spent in your classrooms before College before University is a second I want back is trauma is pain all you did is instill in

me that I'm an idiot I'm a I'm not good enough I should go away I'm bad I'm aberin like I got it I really got it you don't like me I don't like you you're bad people to me you can think that I'm the student who's just disagreeable but the fact of the matter is life depends on disagreeable people what would you say to the people who feel like they didn't fit in when they were younger they still don't fit in now like life happens for other people and they're on the outside sort of watching

it's an interesting question I don't know how to give everyone advice but is there something that you're best at is there something that you don't suck at that isn't valued by the world you know that's kind of the beginning of you have to make some room for self-esteem one of the things that I'm not positive my grandfather ever said it but I remember it as if he said it is you owe the world your eyes maybe your eyes aren't that good maybe what you see isn't true maybe you're confused maybe you're clouded maybe you're egotistical

maybe you're a narcissist blah blah blah blah blah blah blah but whatever your eyes are they're yours and you have a right to process the world and say what you see and one of the quotes that I like best of myself which is not of repeated is most of us die never having heard our own inner voice even once it is so shocking to speak with your voice the first time I understood anything about male female romance something slipped out of my mouth that clearly was a lack of impulse control and it worked it was

charming and it shouldn't have worked it should have been crash and burn but some point you'll have an accident where something will sort of work out better do you know the Tom Petty song even the losers oh if I ever get invited on The Tonight Show that's what I want to come out to so it's the song and well it was neat it's sort of like a Bob Dylan Bo it was nearly summer and we sat on your roof and we smoked cigarettes and we stared at the moon and I showed you Stars you never

could see couldn't have been that easy to forget about me and it goes into the story in which a guy who clearly is a lower status guy is on a roof and and in my mind you know he says I showed you Stars you never could see like maybe he's an a omy geek and somehow he's got the hot chick on a roof and they're smoking cigarettes and he seems cooler than he is and he says you know something about uh you kiss like fire so it doesn't tell us about sex doesn't get into like

the notch on his came and and I love songs that talk about kisses is proxy for whatever happens and in that story he has an accident where he's above his station in the world as he perceives it somewhere you have an accident where you had your best day ever even the person who's the most out of luck has their best days ever and they have to ask themselves well what happened on that day what was it that you did start building on that and and by you also have to realize that certain kinds of criticism

has to be ignored you can't process all criticism because a lot of criticism is designed to hold you back back as opposed to help you get better and your obligation is only to process constructive criticism now you can turn negative criticism and destructive criticism into something you can do but stop processing the criticism that's actually poisoned so that the other person can get ahead of you in the world and I think that that that that thing about high agency is try to find the cheek codes the the one I've given four that I I love

because I don't need it anymore is that in Penn Station in New York your intermediate between Washington DC and Boston so you're not guaranteed a seat on the train and there's a giant board which says which track you should meet your train whichever direction you're going that means everybody runs to try to get a seat on that train but there's a much smaller screen that says arrivals for people meeting trains since most trains are never met and there's a tiny number of people who crowded around that screen and they always knew what platform the train

was coming in 10 minutes earlier than everybody else and you'd go to that platform and you'd see everyone else who figured out that cheat code and so my claim is is that somebody's winning try to figure out what it is that they're doing you can even pay them like just give me half an hour of your time tell me what you do let me want you if you're not good at a in a bar whether you're male or female U meeting people somebody's good befriend that person buy them a drink do something kind breaking the

fourth wall the exact solution that I found to be able to punch above my own weight when we wanted to start this Cinema series for the show was I realized that really bigname guests like the the the sort of topflight ones that are in the most demand you can get them to be more likely to come on the show if you just go go to them if you find out where they are and you off to send a car for them and you show up there because the likelihood of catching Jordan or you or Joo

or Goggins when they're through Austin is essentially zero but say look I'm going to remove all of the different bits of friction I'm going to come to you can we make it work that was one of the things that worked so again George uh has this question he uses to work out who is the highest agency person in your entire life tell me you're trapped in a South American prison you know one this one is it's Absolut it's one of those awful 5,000 people in there it's a 100 people per room there's half the number

of bunk beds everyone's got a skin head you have 24 hours to get out and you've got one phone call who'd you ring it's hard in my case why I happen to be the brother of Brett Weinstein I happen to have worked for Peter teal um my wife is a total supermind uh I've got no shortage of these people you want to get one phone call I know I can't figure out who most people the thing that I worry about is that most people have no one yep but you know it has to do with

people who are extremely generative and high trust and can readjust their thinking because no solution is clear but yeah I think a different version of that question is is your problem which call to place or that you have no one you can even think of and then another version of the question would be if you could call anyone and you don't happen to know them personally is there anyone that you would think would be the best person and another insight for this would be for how many people would you be that phone call it's an

interesting question you know we want to cultivate agency in ourselves and every time that I've asked this question at dinner or on a podcast so what's the most impossible situation you've gotten your you've macgyvered your way out of uh I've manag to prepare myself pretty well typically um it's not much macgyvering but I came off a moped in Bley uh and managed to lose the skin on basically the entire left hand side of my body balines Road versus me in a tiny pair of swim shorts and I lost um first round TKO and I needed

to come up with a solution to be able to get myself uh looked after while I was out there in terms of sort of Health Care I needed to kind of manage my own um the protocol that I was going through and and then I also needed to make the call about when to come home and it wasn't like I had a ton of money to be able to get myself back uh so did that spent a week laid up trying to get better realized I wasn't going to get better also realized that Indonesia versus

the NHS for all the problems the NHS has I'd rather be in the UK so managed to do that but that involved oh actually that was an interesting one uh on the way back one of the things I didn't want to do was not be able to have my foot elevated but I had no nowhere near enough money to be able to fly business class so fluted my eyelashes at the male uh flight attendant and uh they took pity on me and put me in premium economy and a couple of other things so that's that's

one that comes to mind uh but no South American prisons or or anything like that yet how about you is there anything that comes to mind yeah not all of which I can discuss but uh not at Liberty to say publicly well no I mean some of it is I have two children to Shepherd through this world and there's a lot of Technology just in terms of problem solving that I I I love sharing with my audience but there's some that I reserve for for my family alone and you know I would say there are

lots of things that I'm not good at to have Jordan Peterson come after you on conscientiousness I think it's because he's asked me several times to do his show I've never really gotten back to him I don't know if that's so Jordan I totally apologize love you the um I think that in general the thing that I'm most valued for in my family is when you need an elephant or two pulled out of a hat that's what I'm really good at pulling rabbits out of the Hat not so much yeah yeah yeah very much so

I hope that I'm the same too but you know probably geometric Unity is I have only two claims no sorry I should say different I have only three claims on immortality my children is my first geometric marginalism which I did with my wife which is rebasing economics on the differential calculus not of ordinary calculus but of gauge theory is the second and that is dwarfed by geometric unity and the image I have when I think about this is of a person cradling a flame in a hurricane for 40 years Against All Odds like it is

without question the most brilliant thing I've ever done ever will do whether it is right or wrong whether is fool's gold or real gold has not been determined by the outside world I'll be stunned if it's Fool's Gold but I cannot believe I I I don't even know how to live with it it's so it's so outside of ordinary I can't answer questions people's like hey what are you up to what are you thinking about what are you doing and it's like if I told you what why does the conversation will always go south yeah

and I think you know Lex asked me this like what are you proudest of it's said trying not giving up not listening to every voice in the world which says let go of that thing it's like now I'm betting that 10,000 of you are wrong and I'm right and I pretty sure I will win in the end and you will lose but I will probably have to wait for this generation of humans to die or retire what did you bring what's that which one the little things what are those well I mentioned this woman uh

when I was on Joe Rogan Beth Sheba grman and she's a National Treasure what you're holding in your hand is a three-dimensional projection of the four-dimensional platonic solid corresponding to the do DEA hedron I think that's called the 120 cell so that's a four-dimensional object projected in three dimensions and it's the analog of the do decahedron there are five platonic solids in dimension four you'll give me that one this is the thing that you can't even believe exists that is called the 24 cell it is a platonic solid projected into Dimension 3 that has absolutely

no analog that was only discovered in the end of the 18 hundreds I think by shaffle almost no human knows it exists and because of the fact that you and I have been able to do millions of views more people are going to know about Beth Sheba grman um and we're going to take care of our mathematical artists who are able to transmit the most profoundly bizarre features of the world this has to do with something called an exceptional leag group called F4 it's 52 dimensional it has a its next analog has 78 Dimensions called

E6 E7 has 133 and the granddaddy of them all E8 has 248 Dimensions nobody knows why they're there it's like a mathematical platypus from outer space with no context and I brought them sort of for no reason um because I didn't know where we were going when I did the Terren house thing at at Joe's request um it generated a lot of interest and a lot of heat I got a ton of criticism why would you sit down with a pseudoscientist you're normalizing this Behavior Terrence Howard is actually playing with all sorts of geometric shapes

and dualities between geometric shapes that even professional mathematicians couldn't figure out Neil grass Tyson says I don't know where these come from um I didn't know where the conversation would head you always throw curve balls and so I just want I brought a couple of toys and things in case they they came up have you ever read uh escaping flatland oh how can I not even know about this so uh it's a book from the 1800s and it is about a sphere that goes to visit a two-dimensional world of flatland so in the two-dimensional world

you have different shapes and the shapes denote the class well this is Abbott's book flat yes is this beyond that no but it's it's also referred to as escaping flatl I see I didn't understand sorry so yes Abbott's book uh but I always think about that you I I still really don't understand tesseracts and those what are those vases that loop back on themselves what Klein bottles yeah like I still hey shout out to Clifford stole in Berkeley California who produces them at Acme Klein bottle uh somebody I did a commercial for who never never

asked for it just we have to we have to help these businesses so people are aware you can order a clim ball go on sorry about that it's just cool uh but you know I I interstella is my favorite ever movie and they try to sort of represent a 4D Tesseract in three-dimensional shape threedimensional space and that's kind of hard to wrap my head around um but flatland is is an interesting um equivalent just one down into a place that we can so for the people that haven't read it this sphere is able to make

itself shrink and grow at will in front of and it amazes the inhabitants of flatland because obviously as it moves up and down through its Third Dimension it just grows and and shrinks in the two dimensions a sphere passing through a plane and you're seeing the cross correct yeah and it gets bigger and it gets smaller and flatland the Flatland inhabitants are absolutely amazed at this ability that it has to do and uh it's just great it's a really really cool way to think about and I I I also think about you know the challenges

that people have of orthogonal thinking uh you know if you are trying to play with ideas that break against whatever the sort of the current flow is uh maybe it's with subtlety or complexity or Nuance or or uh charitability and um yeah I like I like things thinking about that sphere I like thinking about him it's a very odd thing that you bring up because that example and when you said the title escaping flatland I was Goosebumps um I have not gotten back to Sam Altman who asked me for a proposal because I'm not sure

whether I'm supposed to help Sam now Sam is a friend of mine and I think very very highly of Sam Alman um despite all the machinations and whatnot I I know him to be a person deeply concerned with Humanity who will not be understood uh even maybe he has to do Machiavellian things in order to take care of humanity it's very confusing situation in a certain sense large language models are flatland all it can do is read what we've already done and extrapolate and so to the extent that we haven't extrapolated everything from what we've

already it can connect things that we didn't connect example I like to give is Guns Germs and Steel may have been one of the great books of all time but it was Jared Diamond taking things that were in the literature scattered and without doing real original research he came up with a thesis that was spellbinding the um key question is how do you break out of flat land and there's a a tool that is not understood because you learn about it in I don't know middle school and you don't realize what it is and that's

the square root oper operation the square root is how you escape flat flat land you ask for the square root of two which is a an integer and you wind up in algebraic numbers that are irrational you ask for the square root of negative-1 and you add end up in purely imaginary numbers that you learn in school and you don't know why they're there even mathematicians don't really fully understand how to apply them in everyday life um reasons we can get into in another podcast you can apply it to the determinant of a matrix if

it's anti- symmetric and get something called the fafan that nobody who's taken ordinary calc uh ordinary linear algebra has even heard of it's a sort of reserve for the priests of mathematics the square root is an example of a question that you can ask inside of the reality that you're aware of so for example the light between you and I is photo and those are examples of bans but the matter here is sort of the square root of the light if you will and this is what we would call fironic um once you understand that

the square root is the Psychedelic of mathematics that breaks you into the Panic Room that you did not know was even present in the house that you bought I mean it's your house at some point I realized that there was a a space behind a wall in our house and I said break it open and the contractor broke it open and found all sorts of things that had been like hidden there since the 1970s in a compartment that could be open up and people had lived in the house they had no idea that this thing

existed that's what therapy's like that's what therapy is like therapy is inviting somebody into a house that you've lived in your entire life and them showing you rooms that you didn't know of that it's also the case that most of the really important programs in your brain have never run like I don't know if you've ever experienced real hunger I don't know whether you've ever I've only once in my life gotten to a level of hygiene that was so low that my risk-taking suddenly changed it's an emergency program that says you cannot afford to not

take massive risks if you're this dirty I was in the Himalayas in the north of India and I cannot even believe the risks I took when I was that dirty um it's a it's an astounding thing that we live in our own bodies and have no idea what's internal to us in in particular in our own mind the issue about tesser X like I could teach you to see four dimensions if you take that Klein bottle and for people who don't know what it is they can Google it imagine that in clear glass you take

an ordinary bottle with a punt that little thing at the bottom that goes up and you pull the punt through the wall and you bend the neck and you fuse the two now okay you say Well it has to go through the wall of the bottle but if the bottle is clear and you make the neck increasingly blue as it goes into the punt and then it goes back into the clear if the amount of bless is a fourth dimension you can see that it's not actually intersecting itself because the wall of the bottle is

clear but the neck is highly blue so you are actually literally seeing four dimensions now I can increase that to five Dimensions by changing the texture Six Dimensions with respect to the opacity and you can more or less see Six Dimensions visually once you train your mind I mean it's like it's not a particular trick above that you really don't have the benefit like the entire back of your head is your visual cortex and you you can't use it directly then you have to start doing incredible things where you allow low-dimensional sort of sketches to

stand for higher dimensional objects and you have to lean on the crutches of algebra but if the question is that before you uh Shuffle off this Mortal Co coil you want to see four dimensions it's entirely possible we've got an even more intense couple of months coming up than the last time that we spoke you kind of hinted at it earlier on this velocity of stories and forgetfulness uh either done on purpose done by accident done due to sheer random access memory limitations how do you well first off is the speed of Meme and news

velocity that we're seeing now just classic election year and I've not been here seeing this up close before no no the I want you to think about the number of times you've seen a Mona Lisa meme the Mona Lisa had to be the Mona Lisa for many years before it was worthy of so many memes that Trump photograph where he's pumping the air with blood on his face had about 4 seconds before it was a mean the concept of the Sacred and the archival is being lost because of the novel environment provided by the internet

and the the tools of editing you know the distracted boyfriend mean or Haw Tua right these things are so fast that they are robbing us of the Sacred and you don't need to believe in God the the re reverence um if you've ever been to Florence and seen Michelangelo's David I'm going in a week and a half oh boy that the belli room at the eizi gallery uh the day the David in particular because you see the studies when you go to the academy you're walking through the studies for the David and then you actually

see this thing you've seen it a million times before and you still can't believe it it's so different it's so different than everything else like you I was just I was just playing Jules Holland and Jeff Beck doing drown in my own tears and I was thinking I am the same species as Jeff Beck I am the same species as Michelangelo I same spe species as gudi and his ceiling of lasag famia these are things that are just beyond anything how did I get onto this oh the sacred the reverential speed of memes the speed

of memes we can't afford it we are we too are entitled to the archival we too are entitled to something that isn't a joke you know the the cringe ation of everything everything is being performative everything has been done godamn it yeah yeah I know I know exactly what you mean the exhaustion that you have with it I I I feel as well I like sorry I like uh Earnest people I like cringe you want to talk about something really contrarian like I was just listening to Tim McGraw's uh something like that do you know

the song I had a barbecue stain on my white T-shirt she was killed me with that miniskirt you know never heard this the whole song is it's cringe you know like Shania Twain's man I feel like a woman is a bit cringe I like it a lot um the Tim McGrath song is the setup for a heterosexual romance between what must have been a 16-year-old girl and a 17-year-old boy who meet at a county fair and it's perfect L constructed and the reason that it's cringe is because it's so clearly perfectly constructed um it introduces

the boy buying gasoline and a coke he drives to the county fair he sees a girl in line instant attraction they skip stones together so it's not just animalistic there's a sweetness and whoever wrote that song I'm assuming it's Tim mcra but maybe it was somebody else realizes that every woman has this question why aren't you going to leave me as I age what is so special about me right and so they're they're singing along about she's got red lipstick and a Minik skirt and all this stuff like she's above he's below I work so

hard for that first kiss not about sex you don't know whether anything went beyond that kiss you probably don't remember me so you think that they don't have sex it's very well constructed and it's basically a song for men and women at the same time we used to know how to do this and part of the reason it's emotional is that we really blew it with lgbtq I really appreciate that we screwed up with gay men we did not do a good job by them being gay and being male is a very strange different thing

from the point of view of heterosexuality it's a huge evolutionary puzzle and we needed to make accommodations particular particularly for that Community but it is also true that heterosexual families are as flawed as they are with the fighting with the recrimination etc etc are the the Mainstay of a society that will last and I have an enormous number of gay friends it's not some of my best friends are gay it's like way too many of them are gay so I spend a lot of time in in gay space and what I've learned from that is

that you can go about 85% of the distance talking about relationship sex in the abstract hopes dreams for the future attraction and then the last 15% is really different and I don't want to be in your business at all and and it's constructed that way because we freak each other out we don't really want the specifics of the details Beyond a certain point and I think that that last 15% can't be shared between Straits and gays we can go 85% of the distance but the heterosexual Community is now much more in need of help than

it ever has been before and the idea that as soon as you say something about boys and girls and falling in love and all and just these assumptions about masculinity and femininity that you immediately have to acknowledge every other type is is one of the things that I think is absolute poison for a society there's special stuff about men and women that isn't shared with the rest of the rainbow and boy meets girl boy loses girl boy gets girl in this song is about rekindling the ability to say I have a right to sing about

boys and girls without bringing in every other thing that can happen we've got to get back to romance if you think about songs that mention marriage right there are all sorts of songs where men and women sing them sing along together old songs that appeal equally to both groups and if you think about this the concept of a man putting a woman on a pedestal and a woman looking up to a man both of these things have to happen for the magic to occur I think we've stopped instructing our young as to what this is

and why it's worth working for and why being single and racking up spectacular body counts is not an answer the way you think it's going to be when you start out you know it's important not to keep changing everything every seconds there are there are novels think about when The Sopranos came out and the length of those storylines think about the development of Tony Soprano versus let's say a beautifully drawn character like Michael and The Godfather Tony Soprano is drawn at some level that puts a great film like Michael Cor you know Michael Corleone's Odyssey

to shame how do we come up with something that's archival and one of the things that I say that nobody I don't think anybody's picked up on it I have a line that great art is the reflection of our time in real time for all time you have to accept that if you're Shakespeare you're writing in England in a particular era you can't try to write universally it has to be performed in that time to feed back to the people who are living it with you and it has to be archival so that you know

nobody says wherefore art thou in our modern context but we're going to work our asses off so that we can go back I can still recite the first lines of choser because my high school knew that it was important to know something in Middle English where is that how how do we stop this memeification I get it everything's a joke but now the idea is that the guy throwing spitballs in the back of the class or the professors and the class is not functioning you know at some level cringe Earnest the hardest thing to say

is I believe in this person like you know Douglas Murray is a mutual friend of ours I don't know everything Douglas has said I don't know that he hasn't said some really horrible things nor does he know whether I've said those things but I saw him attacked online that's an archival friendship I want to be friends with Douglas forever I really admire that guy and I think it's important for us in the podcasting Universe to be Earnest and to say I care it's you want to talk about something radical it's not Reddit the average Reddit

post that I read has one point and it's wow you fell for that thing that I saw right through really you're going to use your time on planet Earth to convince people that you see through everything and that everybody who fell for something there's this Mo brilliant moment that BR e Ellis had when I was podcasting with him where he started talking we were talking about seduction he was like can you imagine Never Falling for a seduction like never being seduced your whole life man are you missing out how do we get people people to

be able to hold the illusion so with respect to the next couple of months I don't know that anything crazy is going to happen it's still a million years kamla was not elected through a normal primary system that we've had since 1968 when everything fell apart in Chicago for the Democrats Donald Trump the Assassin assassination story is a very very bizarre one I don't think Donald Trump is acceptable to the international order I don't I'm not saying that they will take him out with a bullet but they will certainly take him out with memes tweets

data analytics skull duggery um and I'm actually most interested in this other campaign uh of Bobby Kennedy but more importantly at the moment Nicole Shanahan uh it was just up with Nicole Shanahan in the Bay Area and I haven't endorsed her and she hasn't asked for an endorsement what she wants to work on is incredible I wrote a paper on Kian labor markets and immigration and how to actually redo immigration properly and Nicole was thinking about Ai and Ronald coast and his very deep theories of economic do you know about Coast I listened to the

episode you did with her so I know that much to take kamla who is currently vice president and the ridiculous things that she says that make no sense at all and to talk to somebody who wants to talk about protecting the labor market the way Andrew y Sam Alman and now Nicole Shanahan are thinking about you're talking about people who don't even seem to be like the same species I need to ask you this can you please try and explain to me what you interpret by what can be unburdened by what has been what does

that mean I don't know if I should say I don't know if I should say there's a line in marks where sometimes you hear certain phrases Like A World to Win AOC uses the phrase We Have A World to Win which comes from the end of the ma communist manifest originally written in German it was the name I used to hang out in the Revolutionary book store in Cambridge Massachusetts with the Communists because they print everything in every language so if you're trying to learn multiple languages they'll print the same text in all of these

languages and you can compare um it basically says you have to wipe out what has been to arrive in the new where's it from what can be unburdened by what has been it's not a direct translation but it occurs in KL Marx now I could I wasn't expecting this I could find you the exact reference if you think about what Mao had to do to wipe out Chinese history what pole pot had to do you're trying to wipe out memory because the memory has all of this burden why do you why why is it important

to go after doctors and lawyers and teachers and professors because in some sense they are going to resist the New Order that you're about to impose you're looking for a blank slate they like a te to the Past okay I'm going to tell a story I don't know that I've ever told anyone maybe I have maybe I haven't can't promise it's original to you but I was in hoan in Vietnam and I'm going to lose this one hoan is one of the only beautiful places that I found you know like hu and hoan a lot

of things were really ripped up in that war and there is a an unbelievable and difficult instrument which the Viet language is very hard so I'm going to say it wrong called it would be written as Dan baow it's one string in a giant lever and you pluck the harmonics and it's supposed to be an intimate in instrument I think sometimes played by the blind where only the person who's intended is the recipient of the music okay I see this in a window in hoan and I become transfixed by it and a woman says I

see you looking at this in English would you like to come in and I said I don't want to impose she says no no no it's not mine so she invites me in and there's this guy who appears to be brain dead he's like deformed I'm not going to get through this and he's speaking very haltingly and I I don't know who he is and something about music something about journalism something about a professional I can't really make out what's happening I'm asking about the instrument and this woman brings him a guitar and this deformed

man starts playing some transcri like chopan or some some piano cont on the guitar at some incredible level and I can't even imagine that his body can do it and so I I have no idea where I am or what's happening and then he motions for like a book and she brings a book and it has all of these articles about this man tortured for his principled stand against communism this man has been destroyed Mind Body to the point where it's just painful to watch him and I realized that basically he just do you know

what a nail housee is if you Google nailhouse under Google Images do it well you can't do it or you off the internet no I can do it tell me what you see it's a toll building an individual Standalone structure in the middle of a road there are these people who will not give up their homes when a shopping mall goes in or a road is put and for some reason they'll build a highway to screw over the person who stands up and says I will not move and the idea is that that road is

the future unburdened by what has been and then there's some hold out who won't go along with the program if Kamala Harris is as unsophisticated as we think she is do we really believe that she is quoting from the dark depths of why do you believe she is as unsophisticated as you have just claimed what did her father do I don't know look it up and by the way I am assuming that I will end up on the open Skies watch list as a result of this podcast that is crazy by the way what happened

to telsey the trip the quades on her boarding pass Donald J Harris the father of camel Harris Jamaican American Economist professor emeritus at Stanford University originally from St ANS Bay Jamaica what kind of Economics known for applying post keian ideas to development economics H what's poian I don't know P keian economics is a school of economic thought with its origins in the general theory of John mayard kean's subsequent development influenc to a large degree by a name I can't pronounce I think that there was a lot of marxist thought and I as a as a

man of whose family comes from the farle you recognize certain sorts of commonalities I'm sure she would see them in me um the Democratic party is not communist I don't think that that's right that's the critique of many of my right-wing friends but it is welcomed in a lot of Neo marxian thought I would say AOC is straight up Marxist I don't know I think comma is both is everywhere between crony finance and Marxism you're talking about things for which you do not have language so the reason that I said I don't think that Kam

can be a sophisticated as perhaps this obscure reference said a hundred times apparently according to the archive who's Charles Mingus I don't know KL is a lot smarter than you're giving her credit for I mean this is the uh your point about how many levels through it do you go this the first one this is the second one this is the third one yeah but in order to be able to do the Ukraine is a country it is a small country Russia is a big country they are a bigger country this is bad time is

all around us in order to be able to do that self-referentially with agency knowing what you're doing the metacognition to be able to do that and play a role to me seems that's like 200 IQ stuff to be able to do that I don't think so I think it's 130 IQ stuff I think you could do it better than you think we we could have a pretend all right I'm going to talk to you in a way you haven't heard before son I'm going to school you on a few things you can stop that silly

grin and wipe it R off your face we can sound like however we want I could affect some sort of Oxbridge accent or I could do Cockney doesn't matter um you're looking at characters this is why I wrote the 2011 kayab essay because you're looking at professional R do you imagine that the iron Chic you know who is the iron Chic who is Triple H who is the Undertaker do you think he actually works in a in a mortuary these are characters George W bush as a debater in Texas for the governorship was really really

smart and suddenly he got real dumb and folksy and do you imagine he actually says nuclear he knows it's nuclear you know I would learn to say nuclear I could say nuclear I got to be careful with that nuclear physics and I can I can get Democrats to correct me and look like every time this is there's an old FDR line which is nothing in politics happens by accident don't get taken in at level one look you know friend of mine Dan bar has a beautiful thing where he says when someone looks at the window

and one person sees the reflection and the other person is looking through the window and what's on the other side they don't realize that they're seeing different things I I believe that in part this is a superposition of signals to wall stre Street to antifa to organize labor to women in the workforce worried that they're never going to find mates and have children these are ridiculous things crafted to appeal to many different people and and to be decoded by different groups kamla really is scary for very reasons for very different reasons than Donald Trump is

scary and it's a weird election for me because I know three of these people I know JD Vance and I know Bobby Kennedy a little bit and Nicole shahan Shanahan a little bit better and I don't at all know the Democratic ticket nor do I know Donald Trump but Donald Trump isn't who he seems to be Donald Trump is much more methodical much better at business and very shady techniques at that you know I think I remember hearing a story about how he bought a bunch of pianos for his hotel and didn't want to pay

full price and then explained well I don't know if the story is true so I'm going to be very clear about that allegedly allegedly and I talked to people who were in business with him and one of whom did Serious Business with him said to me he's a very good businessman who you wouldn't want to do a second deal with um these are complex life forms and I don't know what I'm watching I do know that I I had a meeting sort of by accident with a person in the Democratic party who really tried to

explain to me Eric can you hold off on the anti-democrat party tweeting you need a higher level briefing about how we're actually conducting ourselves I just don't think that the surface is worth very much we're in a lot of danger and one of the things that I don't love about myself in podcasting space is that I don't get to talk about why I'm so worried about existential risk it doesn't come out of needing gloom and doom to energize me I am so head over heels with this planet with all of its wonder and beauty that

I can't imagine that people who who've never been to Glacier National Park have never been to a hindustani classical music concert who've never had great durian or Cavaliers nearly putting it all at risk because it's fun to posture on issues like Ukraine or Iran and that that's like a major Distortion about who I am most of what I am is about just waking up every morning and saying my God I'm still here on this wonderful spinning orb and what are all these completely empty suits doing just to maximize profit that is putting everything at risk

and that's why I think this election is a catastrophe I have no idea what Donald Trump or kamla Harris represent I have a very good idea about what Nicole Shanahan represents and I have a pretty good idea about what Bobby Kennedy wants to represent whether he does it the job that you know he's a complicated guy with a complicated past and I'm not signing on for but he's got a real pure heart and he listens and he's unafraid to take on look the man is willing to die I want to just be very clear about

this Bobby Kennedy is willing to die to take on the intelligence Community like his Uncle this is a person of extraordinary courage of extraordinary intelligence and ability who's had a very complicated life and yeah there's you know like with anybody there's a lot of stuff that I don't want to sign on for but I'm definitely working with that Campaign which is not asking me to endorse it and I'm parking my interest with them um and I want to explain what the calculation is because usually the question is who are you for who are you against

it's not that if more people will answer Kennedy Shanahan until November 1st you will get the maximum amount of Leverage over the other two campaigns at a bare minimum but if you throw your lot in with Donald Trump or kamla the duopoly has won every election since Millard film War that's 42 straight elections if we do not break the duopoly it will break us and the Kennedy Shanahan ticket is sophisticated in realizing that campaigning could be something different it's trying to figure out what should campaigning be but it's crazy to be an all day session

trying to figure out how to save the labor market from Ai and I also want to want to say something about JD Vance without naming names and I hope JD doesn't get angry at me for this one JD invited me out years ago to Ohio to a room in which I was the only Democrat only person probably ever voted Democrat or lots of prominent people and we sat in an oak panel room for three days in the middle of Ohio and I swear to God it was like talking to progressives who were worried about coal

miners it was people talking about the Working Poor and unless you're going to believe that all of these luminaries in the Republican Party were there to fool Eric Weinstein so that he would leak something from this meeting uh these people actually cared about out of luck Americans who were hurt by NAFTA who had been betrayed by the Democratic party and watching JD like he's campaigning however he's campaigning I don't totally recognize that person but I can tell you this that in his off moments where he's just dealing with me human to Human there is no

question in my mind that he cares about the working poor and middle Americans and people under a squeeze and he cares about Hillbillies and it's not a joke you know black Americans are famous for contributing culture to the United States of America whether it's dance or music or oratory or writing hillbillies are much more invisible but Hillbillies have been Central to providing culture for our country one of the most generative populations out there in West Virginia and Kentucky and I I think people forget that we had slavery in the 20th century lot lots of it

white you had um you had alternate money like Bitcoin except it was script issued by companies people lived in towns that were owned by companies they had private armies that were called uh detectives like Pinkerton there was war look up the Battle of Blair mountain or the Harland County Coal Wars JD Vance is an heir to like listen to uh you know the song which side are you on oh my God Pete Seager there was an Union organizer sorry I I come from very left like far far left there was a union organizer whose house

I think was shot up by a detective agency to intimidate him into not organizing the workers and his wife stayed in the house and penned the song which side are you on boys which side are you are they say in Harland County there are no neutrals there you'll either be a union man or Thug for JH Blair Pete Seager took that song and made it almost like an Anthem the Democratic party abandoned these people if you look at the statistics for voting it's Democrat and blue right up until Al Gore and then it goes hard

hard red these people were hurt bad and while Hillary was calling them deplorables people like JD Vance and the right were saying what do they need we're not afraid of their Bible thumping we recognize the culture the endowment the contribution to American society and I wish the Democratic party were doing this they're right there go speak to them stop spinning on them and on them and pissing on them but somehow we've got this sort of NAFTA coked up on NAFTA intellectual Elite that says hey we helped people in Mexico so some some coal miners got

hurt boohoo look at the suicide statistics if you look at suicide statistics the group that you think is on top you know middle-aged white men are killing themselves at a level that nobody else is and that's a very clear marker of who's actually in distress young black women are not in the amount of distress that middle-aged white men are and I think that that's one of the things that's going on in these campaigns that's so confusing which is that I can tell you for sure that JD Vance Nicole Shanahan and Bobby Kennedy are 100% sincere

no matter how they're campaigning or what you're upset about in their off moments and I've been with all of them these people deeply care about the out of luck they're they're interested in taking on real power I don't know Trump look you can tell it's it's not there's no Allegiance I've I can't imagine voting for Trump JD Vance is not the person being portrayed as weird you want to talk about weird take one look at the Democratic party and the bizarre stuff that's going on with you know I don't know gender affirming care where you're

cutting off penises and breasts giving it new names for radical mastectomies or reproductive mutilation that's weird to try to do that at scale a tiny number of people need that in their lives and by the way you and I talked about this last time this Olympics was a real wakeup call for me the number of people who can't deal with the idea that there are people with who've been raised female who may have XY chromosomes and this treating this as if it's trans or if it's weird Behavior I mean I was just sickened by the

Republicans I was sickened by the conservatives who are so adamant about trans that they don't have decency and compassion for for a soul who might be in an ambiguous category now that said I also think that if you're XY kot type you should never be entering a boxing competition and using that leverage against somebody else it's also the case that even if you're out of luck you have responsibilities in something like a combat Sport and and I felt like we tried to have a complex discussion and I got hit with all of these people on

the conservative side or like you're making this out to be so complicated it's a tiny category well show me the love in your soul first and then we'll have a discussion yeah it was a an incorrect patent matching don't you think from the I thought it was a a real Fu in mouth moment for a lot of people on the right I thought that they could have all of the talking points that were being used about trans people were being applied to this which just made it sound like people on the right are the bigots

for somebody that doesn't fit into one category that everybody had always accused them of being but it's another superp position right how can you hold the need some care especially for an athlete oh my God but how do you also say to this person guess what I know that your love for boxing is this thing and it's your Pursuit that's carrying you through life I just unfortunately for you this is maybe a sport that you're you can't do it you know if if that's what's going on and there there's a lot of you know there's

also a question if you take like Mike Tyson you know if you take Mike Tyson's fast twitch muscle somebody had to ask the question is that great athlet athleticism or is that just too much power to be firing at a human head um I don't know the answers to these things Joe invited me to Combat Sports to see UFC it's remarkable how like I think nobody's been killed in the UFC ever right it's very important to act actually ask these really tough questions and I think that and you know part of the reason that I

wouldn't take the question about about Brett is that the last time we had a discussion I I found myself being discussed on my brother's podcast and I don't want to be pitted against Brett and Heather I love them I think the world of them they're brilliant their hearts are in the right place but if if we get into an argument about ovotestes they're going to lose as two biologists and I'm going to win it's not all about motility of gtes uh the world will keep throwing curveballs at you and you have to begin from a

heart openen place to say some of us are out of luck because we Fallen Edge categories and so I stand by everything that you and I did last time it's a difficult place to be and if you have to simplify it as to boys or boys women or women you're not getting it on the other hand we have to stop normalizing what is effectively a a reproductive Holocaust against children who we trusted to schools where people are allowed in to recruit into reproductive mutilation and you've got to combine these in a super position or you're

just not getting it Eric Weinstein ladies and gentlemen Eric I really appreciate you every time that we get to sit down it gets uh easier and more fun and appears to go for longer as well Chris you're one of the best out here and I really appreciate maybe next time we just get a beer uh you don't have to have too I tried to do it I tried to get that the line of cocaine you said you didn't want when we went to the bathroom I look I'm trying to embody my old club promoter world

but dude I I really do appreciate you I uh I look forward to making sense of what happens over the next couple of months at some point next year we look forward to doing it soon with you thank you very much for tuning in if you enjoyed that episode with Eric you will love my full length conversation with tulsy gabbard right here go on press it